2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'll be taking until tomorrow to make a fair proposal. I'll spoil some things that likely won't change- mind/vaimes/silver not being taken out of my quest proposal and proph/dv/shadow being put on it. So it really just comes down to 3 of remaining 5.
Vaimes and Silver should absolutely be fine. Why is Mind in your "must keep" pile? Are you saying you'll likely keep one of Proph/DV/Shadow? Or all three? And then you only need 2 more...so what's the 3 of remaining 5 about?
I think AG vs Osie may be town v town.
I wish Shadow could be plain about whatever his Silver conundrum is, because I've seen Silver as likely town for most the game, and if there's a chance that he was the fail Q2/Q3, we need to talk about that before we continue putting him on quest. But I get that Shadow may not be able to be specific.
Sorry, all, without flips, I'm having a really hard time finding my motivation. I'll try to take a harder look later today.
I'll be taking until tomorrow to make a fair proposal. I'll spoil some things that likely won't change- mind/vaimes/silver not being taken out of my quest proposal and proph/dv/shadow being put on it. So it really just comes down to 3 of remaining 5.
Vaimes and Silver should absolutely be fine. Why is Mind in your "must keep" pile? Are you saying you'll likely keep one of Proph/DV/Shadow? Or all three? And then you only need 2 more...so what's the 3 of remaining 5 about?
I think AG vs Osie may be town v town.
I wish Shadow could be plain about whatever his Silver conundrum is, because I've seen Silver as likely town for most the game, and if there's a chance that he was the fail Q2/Q3, we need to talk about that before we continue putting him on quest. But I get that Shadow may not be able to be specific.
Sorry, all, without flips, I'm having a really hard time finding my motivation. I'll try to take a harder look later today.
I really wish I could elaborate more as well, but doing so would be -EV.
What about AG/Osie looks town v town to you? (This is a serious question.)
Okay, so I've been mulling some stuff over in my head, and I've made some assumptions on this game that don't fit with my current world view.
I'd specifically like to ask that Mindreaver, AG, and Terry read through silver and tell me if there's a chance that he's our Mordred. Because if he is, that means DV is town, and there are some things that still make sense to me.
No way, that would equal two fails in the first quest that failed. With no way to communicate with each other scum can't risk not voting fail two quests in a row. There is no way there are two scum in that first failed quest and it's pretty clear who it is. Every quest should have Shadow, Silver and Vaimes on it.
Sorry guys. I’ve been coasting a lot more than I'm comfortable with due to RL commitments and illness and stuff. And I don't have as much time to do the rereads/isos/cases I normally do near end game.
But I'll do what I can with the time I do have. Brinatoo should probably go ahead and propose but I'll try to push some PBPAs out. Probably starting with shadow tonight.
I'll be taking until tomorrow to make a fair proposal. I'll spoil some things that likely won't change- mind/vaimes/silver not being taken out of my quest proposal and proph/dv/shadow being put on it. So it really just comes down to 3 of remaining 5.
Vaimes and Silver should absolutely be fine. Why is Mind in your "must keep" pile? Are you saying you'll likely keep one of Proph/DV/Shadow? Or all three? And then you only need 2 more...so what's the 3 of remaining 5 about?
I think AG vs Osie may be town v town.
I wish Shadow could be plain about whatever his Silver conundrum is, because I've seen Silver as likely town for most the game, and if there's a chance that he was the fail Q2/Q3, we need to talk about that before we continue putting him on quest. But I get that Shadow may not be able to be specific.
Sorry, all, without flips, I'm having a really hard time finding my motivation. I'll try to take a harder look later today.
How would you explain Osie's 1098 as coming from town? "Explaining how my proposed scum-team makes any sense would only help scum." Seems pretty un-towny to generate a 5 player scum team off a single vote and then deflect any discussion of that hastily put together team.
I'm liking Silver a lot this game who the hell is scum reading him again?
Lul.
We have 2 of the scum team out already just need to find three more.
I'm really curious to see who you are referring to and why.
Why would you say this like this? If you're curious, you would have point blank asked, and because of the context it shouldn't be hard to extrapolate what DV's meaning here is.
Come on Shadow, it's implied that I want him to expand on* his reads more than.. "DERP! They voted no!" Eight other people haven't even chimed in suddenly anyone who doesn't think he's town just gets an OMGUS. Typical scum play. This is so painful watching him, I'm starting to hope this quest actually fails so you guys can wake the EFF up and see that DV is scum.
I know what your meaning was, that's not the problem, the problem is how you phrased it, basically it was throwing shade.
DV is an uncountered town claim, so if you have a counter claim, then pretty much right now is the time.
I ~sort of don't want shadow on Q2, but if you guys just want to add Mindreaver and/or Vaimes and see what happens I'd probably vote to pass it. It was just a ton of shade to dump on Terry and seemed weird that he went after him for wording then told him to counterclaim D_V. Could have been a bus, if you know what I'm saying? Terry was already pretty widely scum read. Idk.
I think I'd be ok with AG going. Though if he's town then I've nailed the scum team exactly (Osi/Terry/DK/Brinatoo/Cantrip) or there's scum in [shadow/Vaimes] regardless.
Oooooh, okay I totally get what bothered you now. So I called him out on wording without calling him scum because I hated his wording but didn't actually think it was alignment indicative so much as personality based, should have probably said that.
My comment about the counter claim was because anyone doing so at that moment would have basically been a scum claim, and I wanted to see if anyone was that dumb.
As far as quest 2, as much as I think it would have been outlandish for someone else (other than me (Merlin)) to have correctly identified all the scum team, I think you're on track, and if you and everyone else would be comfortable without me on it, then I'm good with your groupings. However, I think using the first group + one more will be interesting to see as far as vote comparison, considering I'm pretty sure you're not Mordred, so that won't be an issue.
So, what you were saying is you decided to make a post calling Terry out for poor phrasing - not because you thought it was AI, but because it offended your sensibilities in some way. Then you goaded him into counterclaiming D_V because you would have taken his CC as a scum claim, except... That doesn't really feel accurate when I reread those posts, if you know what I'm saying. It feels more like you latched on to something a buddy said that you thought was scummy and you tried to bus him, then when you got called out on it you back tracked to it not being scummy. The only thing I can't reconcile with that narrative is that you tried to goad him into counterclaiming D_V, which... pretty much only makes sense if you're not scum with Terry, in a number of various worlds.
Like, let me try to put myself in your shoes here.
I'm shadow. I'm town.
Terry says something with poor phrasing that I don't think is AI for him.
I call him out for shading D_V with his phrasing even though I don't think it makes him scum because... ??? (it just offended you that much? or what?)
I goad him into counterclaiming D_V because if he does it's a scum claim from him.
--> (I disagree with this assessment, FWIW, but that's what you said, so...)
I believe he would counterclaim D_V as scum because he's new.
--> (This also seems sketchy to me, I don't think scum's first thought is to jump on a counterclaim there. Not even new!scum.)
--> (Especially if D_V is his buddy like you want to sell me.)
Silver calls me out for it and I explain I didn't think his phrasing was AI. Even though I said it was throwing shade then tried to lay a trap for him.
I'm shadow. I'm scum.
My buddy Terry has been caught since "go" and says something poorly phrased.
I call him out because I know he's scum and it looks scummy to me.
I goad him into counterclaiming D_V because if he does I can call him scum and get town cred.
I believe he might counterclaim D_V since he's new but it doesn't actually matter if he does or not.
Silver calls me out for it and he's right so I hastily backtrack.
I'm shadow. I'm scum.
Town!Terry says something poorly phrased and I know he's town but everyone else thinks he's scum.
I call him out because by adding to the scum case against him I look like town and discredit someone who actually is town.
I goad him into counterclaiming D_V because if D_V isn't actually Percy we need to know that for Merlin hunting.
I believe he might counterclaim D_V as Percy because he's new.
--> (This, on the other hand, makes perfect sense to me because real Percy might counterclaim a fake if he doesn't know any better.)
Silver calls me out for it and I realize he's found me out so I hastily backtrack.
Honestly, the last thing is the one that makes the most sense to me, though the second one is ~plausible. Either way you're scum. So... convince me it's the first thing, I guess.
@Silver: Part of it is being purposely coy with reads, I have tried to play kind of a soft game if you can't tell. Until quest 2 failed, I've been hesitant to give a truly hard read on anyone. The whole point is WIFOM.
The other part is that I'm pretty confident that he's town at this point, but I commented on his shading DV the way I did because I've seen a lot of town players screw up a game because they threw shade just as much as any scum might. So I openly coached him. No, it has nothing to do with alignment, but to do with pushing people to be play better. If he had a real scum case on DV, it would be better to use that, if he was scum and DV was actually town, then he'd have to fabricate something, and get caught out on that. Didn't seem to work, most people still have him as scum despite him at least being objectively right that DV wasn't Percy.
WRT your scenarios where I'm scum, I'm just not that careless as scum. I had no reason to bus a buddy there, I was already doing well enough to be on proposals. Nor did I need to push a town!terry down even further. Sure, I could have done it anyway, but that seems like it would just have been low hanging fruit, there were better things for scum!shadow to do.
As far as someone counterclaiming DV, turns out I was wrong that it would be a scum claim, seeing as how DV backed off of that.
Right, so... your response is that scum!shadow had better things to do than push Terry down further, but... I don't really think that's true? Like. Why not hop on what seemed like easy towncred either way?
You can say scum!shadow is more careful but that's wine. People make mistakes as both alignments.
And you're basically townreading him now because he knew D_V wasn't was right about D_V not being Percy? Or you think we should town read him for that reason? Or am I misreading?
Right, so... your response is that scum!shadow had better things to do than push Terry down further, but... I don't really think that's true? Like. Why not hop on what seemed like easy towncred either way?
You can say scum!shadow is more careful but that's wine. People make mistakes as both alignments.
And you're basically townreading him now because he knew D_V wasn't was right about D_V not being Percy? Or you think we should town read him for that reason? Or am I misreading?
You're misreading. And you kind of glazed over the rest of my post. I'm town reading Terry because of his reactions to things in this thread, not because of his DV stuff specifically.
@Silver: Part of it is being purposely coy with reads, I have tried to play kind of a soft game if you can't tell. Until quest 2 failed, I've been hesitant to give a truly hard read on anyone. The whole point is WIFOM.
I can't talk about this without pointing out things that are bad to say if you're somehow town.
Quote from shadow »
The other part is that I'm pretty confident that he's town at this point, but I commented on his shading DV the way I did because I've seen a lot of town players screw up a game because they threw shade just as much as any scum might. So I openly coached him. No, it has nothing to do with alignment, but to do with pushing people to be play better. If he had a real scum case on DV, it would be better to use that, if he was scum and DV was actually town, then he'd have to fabricate something, and get caught out on that. Didn't seem to work, most people still have him as scum despite him at least being objectively right that DV wasn't Percy.
This boils down to "I was pushing him to make a real D_V read so I could catch him in a fake case or /barn him" right? Which is NAI and not really interesting. Like, it's a reason to push him into making the case but it doesn't explain why you tried to get him to counterclaim or why you thought he would counterclaim as scum. And then at the end you threw in the part that I was asking about at the end of my post (in bold now).
Quote from shadow »
WRT your scenarios where I'm scum, I'm just not that careless as scum. I had no reason to bus a buddy there, I was already doing well enough to be on proposals. Nor did I need to push a town!terry down even further. Sure, I could have done it anyway, but that seems like it would just have been low hanging fruit, there were better things for scum!shadow to do.
Quote from me »
So... your response is that scum!shadow had better things to do than push Terry down further, but... I don't really think that's true? Like. Why not hop on what seemed like easy towncred either way?
You can say scum!shadow is more careful but that's wine. People make mistakes as both alignments.
Quote from shadow »
As far as someone counterclaiming DV, turns out I was wrong that it would be a scum claim, seeing as how DV backed off of that.
Obviously in retrospect, but like. The thought D_V was fakeclaiming never crossed your mind? You would have just snap scumread anyone who counterclaimed him at that point? I thought it was specific to Terry counterclaiming but this is implying otherwise.
...
But it doesn't do a lot more for me than just responding to the part where you actually responded to my scum read, given that the rest is wine or things you can easily say/answer as either alignment. That last bit is the only thing I sort of wish I had asked you about in my first reply but I missed it because I'm multitasking.
Hrm. Actually, I've changed my mind. I'd rather not talk to you about yourself since this isn't going to get us anywhere - I'm not going to trick you into admitting a contradiction or into claiming scum, so. You can talk about something, if you want, or ask me stuff while you have me. I don't see much point in concealing me, Merlin if we fail this quest so. Shoot.
I don't know why this didn't occur to me before, but why the heck is your scum read on me being boiled down to a single interaction I had with someone whom is fairly widely considered scum, yet probably isn't.
I don't know why this didn't occur to me before, but why the heck is your scum read on me being boiled down to a single interaction I had with someone whom is fairly widely considered scum, yet probably isn't.
It's being boiled down to that because I'm strapped for time and seriously procrastinating to even do this much. I started a huge PBPA on you, then realized I had way less time than I thought so I cut it down to that. And your Cantrip interactions. That's, like, most of my scum read right there other than the whole "you or D_V failed the quest and D_V's reaction to me calling him out after he gave up the claim didn't seem like scum."
Really really, though, I felt like I was tunneling you and not really giving you a fair shake. Unfortunately I still think I'm tunneling you, so...
Also, if you get a chance, can you go over shadow and Cantrip's interactions with each other and tell me what you think of them?
Why is that even a question?
Because I need someone to double check me, and I realized I don't actually know what you think of Cantrip despite the fact that you put him on your proposal, and I'm not totally 100% sure shadow is actually scum here.
I don't know why this didn't occur to me before, but why the heck is your scum read on me being boiled down to a single interaction I had with someone whom is fairly widely considered scum, yet probably isn't.
It's being boiled down to that because I'm strapped for time and seriously procrastinating to even do this much. I started a huge PBPA on you, then realized I had way less time than I thought so I cut it down to that. And your Cantrip interactions. That's, like, most of my scum read right there other than the whole "you or D_V failed the quest and D_V's reaction to me calling him out after he gave up the claim didn't seem like scum."
Really really, though, I felt like I was tunneling you and not really giving you a fair shake. Unfortunately I still think I'm tunneling you, so...
Also, if you get a chance, can you go over shadow and Cantrip's interactions with each other and tell me what you think of them?
Why is that even a question?
Because I need someone to double check me, and I realized I don't actually know what you think of Cantrip despite the fact that you put him on your proposal, and I'm not totally 100% sure shadow is actually scum here.
Since I believe that you are town that means Shadow is scum.
I wouldn't put someone on the mission unless I thought they were town at this point in the game. Well mostly wouldn't.
I don't know why this didn't occur to me before, but why the heck is your scum read on me being boiled down to a single interaction I had with someone whom is fairly widely considered scum, yet probably isn't.
It's being boiled down to that because I'm strapped for time and seriously procrastinating to even do this much. I started a huge PBPA on you, then realized I had way less time than I thought so I cut it down to that. And your Cantrip interactions. That's, like, most of my scum read right there other than the whole "you or D_V failed the quest and D_V's reaction to me calling him out after he gave up the claim didn't seem like scum."
Really really, though, I felt like I was tunneling you and not really giving you a fair shake. Unfortunately I still think I'm tunneling you, so...
Why Cantrip? Cause we were buddies in overwatch or something else?
Also, if you get a chance, can you go over shadow and Cantrip's interactions with each other and tell me what you think of them?
Why is that even a question?
Because I need someone to double check me, and I realized I don't actually know what you think of Cantrip despite the fact that you put him on your proposal, and I'm not totally 100% sure shadow is actually scum here.
Umm, you realize that you're asking the literal worst possible person right? From town!silver's perspective, if you have any belief that shadow is town, then you would also be forced to believe that DV was scum.
Umm, you realize that you're asking the literal worst possible person right? From town!silver's perspective, if you have any belief that shadow is town, then you would also be forced to believe that DV was scum.
That makes him the best person because I can read him through his response at the same time I see if he sees what I see. Of course, now I've told him what I'm looking for, but. He's said he thinks you're scum and Cantrip is town so if he comes away with a different impression it will be enlightening either way, yes?
Why would I need to pit you vs them? I could just. I dunno. Keep my mouth shut and keep going on quests and throwing fails unless my scum buddies are... the people who are proposing the next like five quests other than shadow because they're the ones no one wants on quests.
You really think anyone could be aligned with anyone?
Like. I'm not going to scum read you just because you think they're NKA, but if you've read them and still think they're NKA I'd like to know why.
Also would still like your thoughts on the usefulness of protecting Merlin if we're going to fail this quest. I'm not saying Merlin should out himself, but I think townies need to act like actual town and quit being vague and *****. Because we're about to lose anyway and all.
OH MY GOD SHADOW AND SILVER! *Deep Breath* How is DV confirmed town in both your arguments!? DV is scum, you are both town-fighting!
O.o I think you're misreading somewhere. I still think DV is scum, and part of my point was that for silver to think I'm town, he also needs to think DV is scum.
Sorry, my bad Shadow, you're right. You guys were just going back and forth so much it started to look like an argument, but I guess it was just self-defense. Silver, wake up, DV is scum. How is his play more townie than Shadows?
AG's case on Osie sounds excited, like he's happy to have caught scum. And his continued explanation in 1084 sounds sincere and a bit indignant, like he's affronted that people are still not seeing what he sees on Osie. 1096 shows that he's thinking critically about the game (in his question about Rhand's quest proposal).
@AG: Remind me why you see 482 as a scum flag? I can totally see 1098 coming from paranoid town.
On the flip side, Osie's 1095, where he says "you can throw out everything before 475" is also really sincere. I really wouldn't expect scum to ever make the argument that a portion of their game be completely ignored like that. He's also being very thorough in responding.
@Terry: I've played with scum and town shadow, and scum and town D_V. And read several other games D_V has been in as both alignments and read every on-site game shadow has been in. So you'll have to forgive me if I trust my own experience with the relevant players more than your assertions that D_V is obvious scum, because he's far from obviously either alignment based on his meta. And so is shadow.
I'm really skeeved out that both of them are waffling on me but neither are questioning my play or trying to engage me. They're both calling me town and then saying "but what if he's not?" and it's like. If you think it might be me ask me questions. Make a case. Read my iso. Do something besides sitting on the sidelines taking potshots at me like you're both scum trying to discredit me without hard scum reading me.
Like, if it wasn't for the fact that only one of them threw a fail, I'd be convinced they were scum together.
@Cantrip: This is a copout, but. There's not really anything I can point to that says you're scum, it's more like you being scum makes more sense than not with the way I'm reading the game flow. It feels like your alignment is closely related to shadow and Rhand due to the whole you and Rhand nominating each other thing and your interactions with shadow.
Part of it is probably the coasting/gut reading thing I've been doing for the majority of the game, which. I'm not going to be able to reevaluate without a full reread and I don't know if I have time. Maybe Thursday or something I can sit down and reread to double check myself.
@Silver: For my part at least, you've only been town, so I have nothing to go off of, but your play has been town!silver play. My issue is that I know that either your or DV is mechanically scum, and knowing that no one has any idea what you'll look like as scum is disconcerting. And if I just straight up assume you're town, I run the very real risk of gettin completely blown out.
Now under the assumption that you are town, DV almost has to waffle, because in a set of 3 people where one is absolutely scum, if that person is a little too sure of their reads, you can catch them out. This was something I learned from the endgame or unreliable cops.
So I'll ask this, knowing full well that it really doesn't mean anything and only matters if you're town here; Between DV and I, which one of us do you feel actually doesn't know your alignment, and which one of us feels like they're pretending they don't?
I know that either your or DV is mechanically scum
You've repeated this a bunch. Is this supposed to be a soft Percival claim, with a declaration of leaning Silver as Merlin and D_V as Morgana? Why are you doing this, especially at this stage, in this game? There's no way for you to purely mechanically limit down to a dichotomy other than being Percy. Or are you trying to signal to scum that you think Silver is Merlin? What's the goal here? I'm concerned because you have a reputation espoused throughout this thread for much subtler play, but this seems actively bad for you no matter which team you are on.
@Osie: Are you actually forgetting quest 2: Me, silver, DV, and Vaimes? I didn't fail, and Vaimes didn't fail, so there is a mechanical dichotomy between silver and DV.
So I'll ask this, knowing full well that it really doesn't mean anything and only matters if you're town here; Between DV and I, which one of us do you feel actually doesn't know your alignment, and which one of us feels like they're pretending they don't?
I don't know, and it feels like D_V is refusing to engage me but you're just appeasing me.
It's like. If you actually weren't sure between me and D_V, why would you try to one-for-one yourself with one of us instead of pushing for both of us to sit out?
And then neither of you actually turned around and reevaluated based on the Q2 results. You just decided to scum read each other while making it seem like I was still plausibly scum. That's probably my fault for being obv!town, I made it too easy for you to not engage each other, but like. Example. You were asking Mindreaver/Brinatoo/AG if they thought I could be scum because you've been making an assumption that makes no sense if I'm town. People are busy and I don't want to stop them from answering, but. I'd be lying if I said it didn't feel like you were just saying that to make people doubt me.
Plus there's this feeling I have that the scum team has assented to or denied all of our quests so far.
Which basically means, if you look at this vote count...
Either Cantrip and D_V are scum together (scum team didn't want two fails) or this quest is "clean" and the team is in the others.
But then you think Cantrip is town but D_V is scum and it's like. Why would the scum team deny the quest then? Would this quest passing really have made them look suspicious if exactly D_V was scum? In fact, if D_V was scum on this quest but Cantrip was town, wouldn't it be even better because they could push suspicion for the fail onto either of them?
So I'll ask this, knowing full well that it really doesn't mean anything and only matters if you're town here; Between DV and I, which one of us do you feel actually doesn't know your alignment, and which one of us feels like they're pretending they don't?
I don't know, and it feels like D_V is refusing to engage me but you're just appeasing me.
It's like. If you actually weren't sure between me and D_V, why would you try to one-for-one yourself with one of us instead of pushing for both of us to sit out?
Because I really thought I was sure, and it felt darn good to take the bullet for town in the moment.
Quote from silver »
And then neither of you actually turned around and reevaluated based on the Q2 results. You just decided to scum read each other while making it seem like I was still plausibly scum. That's probably my fault for being obv!town, I made it too easy for you to not engage each other, but like.
To be honest, I felt like I was solidly townread too, my scum games have hurt my town game it seems (which I'm pretty okay with, but that's not really relevant). And do you mean Q3? I guess my biggest issue with this whole thing was really not wanting to give scum the 2 for 1.
Quote from silver »
Example. You were asking Mindreaver/Brinatoo/AG if they thought I could be scum because you've been making an assumption that makes no sense if I'm town. People are busy and I don't want to stop them from answering, but. I'd be lying if I said it didn't feel like you were just saying that to make people doubt me.
I really want to be careful, because the assumption I'm making could cause a game loss if I'm too clear and make what I know obvious, I'm sorry you feel like it's just me casting doubt on you, I'm not trying to shade you so much as make darn sure. And the assumption I'm making can actually still be true with town you, it just means I have been wrong about something else entirely that I was even more sure of, which might be embarrassing for me in the end game. Also, it was Mind/Terry/AG, not actually Brin. And I picked those three all for different reasons.
Quote from silver »
Plus there's this feeling I have that the scum team has assented to or denied all of our quests so far.
Which basically means, if you look at this vote count...
Either Cantrip and D_V are scum together (scum team didn't want two fails) or this quest is "clean" and the team is in the others.
But then you think Cantrip is town but D_V is scum and it's like. Why would the scum team deny the quest then? Would this quest passing really have made them look suspicious if exactly D_V was scum? In fact, if D_V was scum on this quest but Cantrip was town, wouldn't it be even better because they could push suspicion for the fail onto either of them?
I don't think I've given a hard read one way or the other on Cantrip, so if you're pulling from that ridiculous read wall that Osie made, please stop. And if it's something else I said, then know that I may or may not have changed my stance since then. I don't honestly remember everything I've said this game, hiding in plain sight has been tricky and a bit draining.
AG's case on Osie sounds excited, like he's happy to have caught scum. And his continued explanation in 1084 sounds sincere and a bit indignant, like he's affronted that people are still not seeing what he sees on Osie. 1096 shows that he's thinking critically about the game (in his question about Rhand's quest proposal).
@AG: Remind me why you see 482 as a scum flag? I can totally see 1098 coming from paranoid town.
Osie has been suggesting that his scumreads go on quests quite a lot. 482 is the clearest example, since between it and his gross followup in 504, he said he was fine with 11 of the 12 players in the game going on a quest. Town can't afford to let even 1 scum slip onto a quest and Osie hasn't appeared to ever have that worry. Scum aren't too concerned with the last few players going on a quest, as long as they get some scum member on it. Osie's attitude towards his scumreads going on quests matches what you'd expect from scum and not what you'd expect from town.
What about 1098 makes sense from paranoid town? What he said can be from paranoid town in a vacuum, but it doesn't line up with the questions I asked him. What information is he giving away by looking into and explaining the mindset behind scum.Rhand taking his scum partner off Q1 (who threw a pass on Q1) and replacing him with 2 town members? Similarly, what is he giving away by explaining his lack of followup to testing players with bad quest teams? The answers to those questions shouldn't be giving up any dangerous information.
@D_V:
Could you look at shadow/cantrip's interactions and tell me whether you think they're scum together or not knowingly aligned?
@shadow:
I didn't pull from Osi's read wall. I thought you said you thought Cantrip was town but I can't find that now and you've been pretty hands-off with him for the last like six pages of your iso, so... I don't really have an excuse, my memory failed me.
@Osie: Are you actually forgetting quest 2: Me, silver, DV, and Vaimes? I didn't fail, and Vaimes didn't fail, so there is a mechanical dichotomy between silver and DV.
Except you are the only player who can make such a dichotomy. Anyone else has to believe that you are town. I like that you were doing that now, but Silver is more town than you are, which makes such a dichotomy (if it even needs to exist) between you and D_V. While preCC D_V wasn't that great from a toneread/analysis, postCC D_V has been quite decent. You've had more of a mix in your posts throughout. You certainly haven't been the scummiest player, though. But you don't seem to be taking others scumreads on yourself into account when posting as of late, which is behavior I mostly see from people who I have stronger scumreads on. Your posting is just very unsettling. And maybe that's the point. But I'm not ready to set aside "if it looks like a waterfowl" even if you might not quack, so to speak.
I guess I can make some time for a thread dump tomorrow. I've not exactly been subtle so there's not much harm.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I think AG vs Osie may be town v town.
I wish Shadow could be plain about whatever his Silver conundrum is, because I've seen Silver as likely town for most the game, and if there's a chance that he was the fail Q2/Q3, we need to talk about that before we continue putting him on quest. But I get that Shadow may not be able to be specific.
Sorry, all, without flips, I'm having a really hard time finding my motivation. I'll try to take a harder look later today.
What about AG/Osie looks town v town to you? (This is a serious question.)
But I'll do what I can with the time I do have. Brinatoo should probably go ahead and propose but I'll try to push some PBPAs out. Probably starting with shadow tonight.
How would you explain Osie's 1098 as coming from town? "Explaining how my proposed scum-team makes any sense would only help scum." Seems pretty un-towny to generate a 5 player scum team off a single vote and then deflect any discussion of that hastily put together team.
Yoohoo. @Shadow. I'm pretty sure you're still out there.
Talk to me about these posts, please.
So, what you were saying is you decided to make a post calling Terry out for poor phrasing - not because you thought it was AI, but because it offended your sensibilities in some way. Then you goaded him into counterclaiming D_V because you would have taken his CC as a scum claim, except... That doesn't really feel accurate when I reread those posts, if you know what I'm saying. It feels more like you latched on to something a buddy said that you thought was scummy and you tried to bus him, then when you got called out on it you back tracked to it not being scummy. The only thing I can't reconcile with that narrative is that you tried to goad him into counterclaiming D_V, which... pretty much only makes sense if you're not scum with Terry, in a number of various worlds.
Like, let me try to put myself in your shoes here.
I'm shadow. I'm town.
Terry says something with poor phrasing that I don't think is AI for him.
I call him out for shading D_V with his phrasing even though I don't think it makes him scum because... ??? (it just offended you that much? or what?)
I goad him into counterclaiming D_V because if he does it's a scum claim from him.
--> (I disagree with this assessment, FWIW, but that's what you said, so...)
I believe he would counterclaim D_V as scum because he's new.
--> (This also seems sketchy to me, I don't think scum's first thought is to jump on a counterclaim there. Not even new!scum.)
--> (Especially if D_V is his buddy like you want to sell me.)
Silver calls me out for it and I explain I didn't think his phrasing was AI. Even though I said it was throwing shade then tried to lay a trap for him.
I'm shadow. I'm scum.
My buddy Terry has been caught since "go" and says something poorly phrased.
I call him out because I know he's scum and it looks scummy to me.
I goad him into counterclaiming D_V because if he does I can call him scum and get town cred.
I believe he might counterclaim D_V since he's new but it doesn't actually matter if he does or not.
Silver calls me out for it and he's right so I hastily backtrack.
I'm shadow. I'm scum.
Town!Terry says something poorly phrased and I know he's town but everyone else thinks he's scum.
I call him out because by adding to the scum case against him I look like town and discredit someone who actually is town.
I goad him into counterclaiming D_V because if D_V isn't actually Percy we need to know that for Merlin hunting.
I believe he might counterclaim D_V as Percy because he's new.
--> (This, on the other hand, makes perfect sense to me because real Percy might counterclaim a fake if he doesn't know any better.)
Silver calls me out for it and I realize he's found me out so I hastily backtrack.
Honestly, the last thing is the one that makes the most sense to me, though the second one is ~plausible. Either way you're scum. So... convince me it's the first thing, I guess.
The other part is that I'm pretty confident that he's town at this point, but I commented on his shading DV the way I did because I've seen a lot of town players screw up a game because they threw shade just as much as any scum might. So I openly coached him. No, it has nothing to do with alignment, but to do with pushing people to be play better. If he had a real scum case on DV, it would be better to use that, if he was scum and DV was actually town, then he'd have to fabricate something, and get caught out on that. Didn't seem to work, most people still have him as scum despite him at least being objectively right that DV wasn't Percy.
WRT your scenarios where I'm scum, I'm just not that careless as scum. I had no reason to bus a buddy there, I was already doing well enough to be on proposals. Nor did I need to push a town!terry down even further. Sure, I could have done it anyway, but that seems like it would just have been low hanging fruit, there were better things for scum!shadow to do.
As far as someone counterclaiming DV, turns out I was wrong that it would be a scum claim, seeing as how DV backed off of that.
You can say scum!shadow is more careful but that's wine. People make mistakes as both alignments.
And you're basically townreading him now because he
knew D_V wasn'twas right about D_V not being Percy? Or you think we should town read him for that reason? Or am I misreading?I can't talk about this without pointing out things that are bad to say if you're somehow town. This boils down to "I was pushing him to make a real D_V read so I could catch him in a fake case or /barn him" right? Which is NAI and not really interesting. Like, it's a reason to push him into making the case but it doesn't explain why you tried to get him to counterclaim or why you thought he would counterclaim as scum. And then at the end you threw in the part that I was asking about at the end of my post (in bold now).
Obviously in retrospect, but like. The thought D_V was fakeclaiming never crossed your mind? You would have just snap scumread anyone who counterclaimed him at that point? I thought it was specific to Terry counterclaiming but this is implying otherwise.
...
But it doesn't do a lot more for me than just responding to the part where you actually responded to my scum read, given that the rest is wine or things you can easily say/answer as either alignment. That last bit is the only thing I sort of wish I had asked you about in my first reply but I missed it because I'm multitasking.
Hrm. Actually, I've changed my mind. I'd rather not talk to you about yourself since this isn't going to get us anywhere - I'm not going to trick you into admitting a contradiction or into claiming scum, so. You can talk about something, if you want, or ask me stuff while you have me. I don't see much point in concealing me, Merlin if we fail this quest so. Shoot.
"I don't see much point in concealing me, Merlin if we fail this quest so. Shoot."
Why is that even a question?
Really really, though, I felt like I was tunneling you and not really giving you a fair shake. Unfortunately I still think I'm tunneling you, so... Because I need someone to double check me, and I realized I don't actually know what you think of Cantrip despite the fact that you put him on your proposal, and I'm not totally 100% sure shadow is actually scum here.
So who out of D_V, Proph, Mindreaver do you think is scum, then?
Since I believe that you are town that means Shadow is scum.
I wouldn't put someone on the mission unless I thought they were town at this point in the game. Well mostly wouldn't.
I don't have a clue what either those abbreviations mean.
wolf/wolf and Not Knowingly Aligned.
I'm once again having to rethink how I feel about you.
But also don't think NKA. Well maybe but I think that you could literally say that about anyone.
You really think anyone could be aligned with anyone?
Like. I'm not going to scum read you just because you think they're NKA, but if you've read them and still think they're NKA I'd like to know why.
Also would still like your thoughts on the usefulness of protecting Merlin if we're going to fail this quest. I'm not saying Merlin should out himself, but I think townies need to act like actual town and quit being vague and *****. Because we're about to lose anyway and all.
@Brin - keep it to Q3 + 1, and justify the +1. That's what we need from you.
AG's case on Osie sounds excited, like he's happy to have caught scum. And his continued explanation in 1084 sounds sincere and a bit indignant, like he's affronted that people are still not seeing what he sees on Osie. 1096 shows that he's thinking critically about the game (in his question about Rhand's quest proposal).
@AG: Remind me why you see 482 as a scum flag? I can totally see 1098 coming from paranoid town.
On the flip side, Osie's 1095, where he says "you can throw out everything before 475" is also really sincere. I really wouldn't expect scum to ever make the argument that a portion of their game be completely ignored like that. He's also being very thorough in responding.
@Silver: Why are you scumreading me?
I'm really skeeved out that both of them are waffling on me but neither are questioning my play or trying to engage me. They're both calling me town and then saying "but what if he's not?" and it's like. If you think it might be me ask me questions. Make a case. Read my iso. Do something besides sitting on the sidelines taking potshots at me like you're both scum trying to discredit me without hard scum reading me.
Like, if it wasn't for the fact that only one of them threw a fail, I'd be convinced they were scum together.
@Cantrip: This is a copout, but. There's not really anything I can point to that says you're scum, it's more like you being scum makes more sense than not with the way I'm reading the game flow. It feels like your alignment is closely related to shadow and Rhand due to the whole you and Rhand nominating each other thing and your interactions with shadow.
Part of it is probably the coasting/gut reading thing I've been doing for the majority of the game, which. I'm not going to be able to reevaluate without a full reread and I don't know if I have time. Maybe Thursday or something I can sit down and reread to double check myself.
Now under the assumption that you are town, DV almost has to waffle, because in a set of 3 people where one is absolutely scum, if that person is a little too sure of their reads, you can catch them out. This was something I learned from the endgame or unreliable cops.
So I'll ask this, knowing full well that it really doesn't mean anything and only matters if you're town here; Between DV and I, which one of us do you feel actually doesn't know your alignment, and which one of us feels like they're pretending they don't?
You've repeated this a bunch. Is this supposed to be a soft Percival claim, with a declaration of leaning Silver as Merlin and D_V as Morgana? Why are you doing this, especially at this stage, in this game? There's no way for you to purely mechanically limit down to a dichotomy other than being Percy. Or are you trying to signal to scum that you think Silver is Merlin? What's the goal here? I'm concerned because you have a reputation espoused throughout this thread for much subtler play, but this seems actively bad for you no matter which team you are on.
It's like. If you actually weren't sure between me and D_V, why would you try to one-for-one yourself with one of us instead of pushing for both of us to sit out?
And then neither of you actually turned around and reevaluated based on the Q2 results. You just decided to scum read each other while making it seem like I was still plausibly scum. That's probably my fault for being obv!town, I made it too easy for you to not engage each other, but like. Example. You were asking Mindreaver/Brinatoo/AG if they thought I could be scum because you've been making an assumption that makes no sense if I'm town. People are busy and I don't want to stop them from answering, but. I'd be lying if I said it didn't feel like you were just saying that to make people doubt me.
Plus there's this feeling I have that the scum team has assented to or denied all of our quests so far.
Which basically means, if you look at this vote count...
Q2 (Rhand): Silvercrys3467, D_V, Vaimes, Cantripmancer
Yes (3): shadowlancerx, Prophylaxis, Silvercrys3467
No (7): Cantripmancer, StinkyJoeTerry, D_V, AtheistGod, Mindreaver, Brinatoo, osieorb18
Abstaining (1): Vaimes
Either Cantrip and D_V are scum together (scum team didn't want two fails) or this quest is "clean" and the team is in the others.
But then you think Cantrip is town but D_V is scum and it's like. Why would the scum team deny the quest then? Would this quest passing really have made them look suspicious if exactly D_V was scum? In fact, if D_V was scum on this quest but Cantrip was town, wouldn't it be even better because they could push suspicion for the fail onto either of them?
I'm being super worried about you being scum and have been worried that you have been tricking me. This post is too good to be scum.
So engage away.
Osie has been suggesting that his scumreads go on quests quite a lot. 482 is the clearest example, since between it and his gross followup in 504, he said he was fine with 11 of the 12 players in the game going on a quest. Town can't afford to let even 1 scum slip onto a quest and Osie hasn't appeared to ever have that worry. Scum aren't too concerned with the last few players going on a quest, as long as they get some scum member on it. Osie's attitude towards his scumreads going on quests matches what you'd expect from scum and not what you'd expect from town.
What about 1098 makes sense from paranoid town? What he said can be from paranoid town in a vacuum, but it doesn't line up with the questions I asked him. What information is he giving away by looking into and explaining the mindset behind scum.Rhand taking his scum partner off Q1 (who threw a pass on Q1) and replacing him with 2 town members? Similarly, what is he giving away by explaining his lack of followup to testing players with bad quest teams? The answers to those questions shouldn't be giving up any dangerous information.
Could you look at shadow/cantrip's interactions and tell me whether you think they're scum together or not knowingly aligned?
@shadow:
I didn't pull from Osi's read wall. I thought you said you thought Cantrip was town but I can't find that now and you've been pretty hands-off with him for the last like six pages of your iso, so... I don't really have an excuse, my memory failed me.
Except you are the only player who can make such a dichotomy. Anyone else has to believe that you are town. I like that you were doing that now, but Silver is more town than you are, which makes such a dichotomy (if it even needs to exist) between you and D_V. While preCC D_V wasn't that great from a toneread/analysis, postCC D_V has been quite decent. You've had more of a mix in your posts throughout. You certainly haven't been the scummiest player, though. But you don't seem to be taking others scumreads on yourself into account when posting as of late, which is behavior I mostly see from people who I have stronger scumreads on. Your posting is just very unsettling. And maybe that's the point. But I'm not ready to set aside "if it looks like a waterfowl" even if you might not quack, so to speak.