Neat way to be worthless.
So nothing to say about the current failure?
It would have been surprising if it passed? That's the hardest one to pass statistically/behaviorially.
Nothing to say about who the proposal should be?
My top 3 hasn't changed- I think Rhand or Proph failed that.
Just more shade attempt.
I already said before that you or shadow failed that other one, but this is just more mudflinging. More reason to ignore you.
While my time is shifting more towards studying, my hosted game is nearing the end so more time should come to this. If my schedule 2 weeks from now was actually now, I'd not have to study as much but my timing is impeccable.
Why is there an order to voting btw? I'll make it short and sweet: Proph gross, Mindreaver ye, Silver ye, Vaimes ye, Cantrip sure, Osieorb18 meh so vote: no
He's been less certain of me ever since he decided me and AG were a dichotomy in 647 based on Osie's post.
Rhand keeps repeating his scumread of me but doesn't adds anything new in the way of evidence. And then he goes and make conclusions about other people based on my posts. In a bad way.
Okay, all joking aside, this quest is the crucial turning point. I believe that everyone on this quest is town, and I think that if any of us 6 decide that group isn't going to work, the game is likely over.
We're down to, what, ~30 hours until deadline? If we don't hear anything from Terry soon, what's the plan? Of all the players, he's one that I'd really rather we didn't skip.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It's not MY fault that my scum game looks the same as my town game. (It's totally my fault.)
I absolutely love this exchange. Not sure what it means for alignments, but I love it.
I'm going to stop this conversation thread right here to ensure that we're not impinging on the "talking about other games" rule, but please remind me when this game is done that I want to have a conversation.
So you have Rhand, Brinatoo, and shadow as scum? Who do you have as the last 2 scum?
The answers you seek are here: #968. That's my gamestate. Basically two of my "do not trust" voted no, and Osi is on the quest voting yes. So it's a mixed bag. It came down to this: Removing Rhand and adding Cantrip and Osi, from my point of view means that Cantrip AND OSi need to be scum. If they are both scum, either D_V is the "worst judge of character 2017" or he's scum too. My Pause was trying to figure out if there was anything that would lead me to believe all three were actually scum and coordinating. I didn't find much, and decided to YoLo it here. I'm townreading D_V and I don't *think* Osi and Cantrip are scum together. It's *probable* that one of them is.
Ok, sorry guys. I'm here (busy couple work days before the 4 day weekend). This quest has lose written all over it. DV picked it, I still think Osi was too wishy washy earlier and I don't trust him. He also said yes. This quest really needs to be Q3+1 (Vaimes, Rhand, Mindreaver, Prophylaxis, Silvercrys3467 + our most town read). Why was Rhand removed, to make room for OSI (because he still thinks DV is town?)? Why isn't Shadow in this quest?
Ok, sorry guys. I'm here (busy couple work days before the 4 day weekend). This quest has lose written all over it. DV picked it, I still think Osi was too wishy washy earlier and I don't trust him. He also said yes. This quest really needs to be Q3+1 (Vaimes, Rhand, Mindreaver, Prophylaxis, Silvercrys3467 + our most town read). Why was Rhand removed, to make room for OSI (because he still thinks DV is town?)? Why isn't Shadow in this quest?
VOTE: NO... ever
Well mechanically, if DV put silver and I on the same quest it wouldn't make sense, he would basically be scum claiming.
Ok, sorry guys. I'm here (busy couple work days before the 4 day weekend). This quest has lose written all over it. DV picked it, I still think Osi was too wishy washy earlier and I don't trust him. He also said yes. This quest really needs to be Q3+1 (Vaimes, Rhand, Mindreaver, Prophylaxis, Silvercrys3467 + our most town read). Why was Rhand removed, to make room for OSI (because he still thinks DV is town?)? Why isn't Shadow in this quest?
VOTE: NO... ever
Well mechanically, if DV put silver and I on the same quest it wouldn't make sense, he would basically be scum claiming.
I understand, I was hoping for a scum claim, thanks for blowing it.
So your last 2 scum in that scenario are 2 of Me, Cantrip and Terry?
What makes you think Osi and Cantrip can't be scum together? Anything that can townclear Cantrip or Terry would be a godsend.
They could but I don't think it fits, numbers wise.
Lets say they are both scum.
D_V *might* be scum, but it's him or shadow either way. So 3 scum total.
Rhand is scum, so there is 4.
There is only 1 left in Terry/Brin/AG. So really in order by Osi to be scum with cantrip, it has to be a world with You, Terry, and Brin shouldn't be voting together. But, you all are.
Now, for me, I see Shadow voting no; and brin voting no. That *could* be town voting no on both those, but it sure doesn't look like it. Now with Terry voting no, I'm even more sure that Cantrip and Osi can't be scum together. That all my "have to be town in order for this to fail" are voting together says something to me.
But, it's probably more important for my validation to see where my top town reads end up. If Vaimes and Silver were to vote no, for instance, I might be able to see a Cantrip/DV/Osi scum gambit. And You/Terry/Brin/Shadow deserve my apologies.
This proposal shouldn't pass. The assumption that the scum will all vote together assumes that Oberon and the scum team have identified each other( which isn't realistic) and that the scum don't think they need to WIFOM anymore.
I'm chalking Brin's vote up to WIFOM.
My reasoning for voting is that Osie is 200% confirmed scum. D_V putting a confirmed scum on his quest just solidifies that he's scum and at least 1 of Proph or Cantrip is scum. There could be either 2 or 3 scum on this quest, but Osie going is a huge red flag.
I'm operating on the assumption that my proposal is our best chance for a town-favored Q4. Shadow might be town so my proposal failing wouldn't be an instant loss, but I don't want to rely on shadow being town.
Really want to reread Rhand/Mindreaver before voting here seeing that this is lylo.
This has not happened.
Quote from Cantripmancer »
What about 963 makes you doubt your previous read?
Would scum!Mindreaver just so up and candidly say "Hey I agree that I should be vigged" like that? I guess I shouldn't really read too much into it given that vigging is.. not really a thing in this setup, but the way he wrote is sounds quite genuine to me. I dunno, man. All of my strategies are worthless to me this game, which is why you're getting, like, 30% of me.
I feel like this quest has too many uncertainties in order for me to pass it. I'm still fairly uncertain about Mindreaver, and adding two potential unknowns (Cantrip/osieorb) seems to be shaky when I feel like we should be going off on the information we /do/ know, which is the Q3 vote. I've been townreading everyone on the quest at various points in the game, but with five scum still there it is /extremely/ likely I've been pocketed. I'd feel much safer going off on Q3 + finding a townie.
Vote No
There's also something I want to say regarding the aftermath of Overwatch Mafia ended but I'll keep my mouth shut.
I know I'm up next, but given that we're at, I believe, 5 "no" votes, I want to take a close look at the votes so far and be sure of how I feel before voting. Unfortunately, that's going to have to wait until later tonight. I'll try to post as soon as possible.
The fact that there are some votes for and against is interesting. Hrm.
I just had a thought. Can't the scum team just always get whichever one they want if they vote first? Assume we're wrong on at least one of the people towards the front. If they vote incorrectly the scum can just vote with them. The quest will almost always be hammered before I can even vote, won't it?
The fact that there are some votes for and against is interesting. Hrm.
I just had a thought. Can't the scum team just always get whichever one they want if they vote first? Assume we're wrong on at least one of the people towards the front. If they vote incorrectly the scum can just vote with them. The quest will almost always be hammered before I can even vote, won't it?
Screw it.
vote: yes
Why are you voting for this group? Are you that certain D_V and Osie aren't scum?
Like, there's this thing where either most of the players voting no are scum or both of Osi and Mindreaver are because if either are town and this is a failing quest we're essentially getting slow rolled.
This quest is townie enough that town players would probably pass it if it was close to passing, right? No one on the quest is being heavily scum read. There's no reason to vote no against it as scum if this team is going to win you the game... and yet almost half the players (the "consensus" scummiest half, even) have voted against it.
Oh, one more thing. I misspoke a little bit when I said "no one" since it includes Osi, but like was said before you'd have to think he was scum with Cantrip or Mindreaver for it to be a bad quest anyway. So. It feels like scum are voting no and Mindreaver/Osi are town trying to win. At least to me.
Like, there's this thing where either most of the players voting no are scum or both of Osi and Mindreaver are because if either are town and this is a failing quest we're essentially getting slow rolled.
This quest is townie enough that town players would probably pass it if it was close to passing, right? No one on the quest is being heavily scum read. There's no reason to vote no against it as scum if this team is going to win you the game... and yet almost half the players (the "consensus" scummiest half, even) have voted against it.
How do you figure this is slow rolling it? Hammering with 4 (now 3) requires a great deal of coordination without the gig being up before its started. As soon as someone voted out of order it raises of flags. I'm concerned that you're doing it, because you should know this.
@shadow: I explained it in the post you quoted. If Mindreaver or Osi is town, the scum team could just be voting yes. I've not made any secret out of the fact that I've liked Osi's play over the last few pages - the only questionable inclusion at all is Cantrip in my opinion. If it's a failing quest and only one of Osi/Mindreaver is town, they only needed three of them to vote yes to win the game if I come in and vote with them like I'm inclined to do anyway. Like, voting no as scum is effectively slow rolling because they would win if they voted yes and convinced one other player to vote with them... unless D_V is scum with Mindreaver.
I'm basically at the point where if anyone besides Rhand/Cantrip are scum and haven't voted yet my reads are so bad we're probably going to lose anyway. And it Seemed like Cantrip intended to hammer when he got back from reading, and I wanted to try to keep the quest alive.
@AG: D_V proposed the quest because he trusts Osi and the rest of the players are basically indisputably town besides Cantrip. Like, this is exactly the kind of team I've been saying we needed to propose because if the thread consensus agrees on a team, the team will fail. That's how it goes. Half the thread is scum, so anything that looks like a consensus team is a team that at least some of them have also endorsed.
And yeah, the votes still look weird from [D_V/Cantrip/Osi/Brinatoo/+1]. For one thing, the +1 has to be Mindreaver or Rhand. And Brinatoo pretty much has to be Oberon. Because if Proph is the +1, he's not voting for the team that will win him the game and vice versa with Brinatoo +1 and Proph Oberon. And if neither is Oberon they're both not voting for the winning team.
Even if you're right and the +1 isn't Mindreaver, they can't hammer with just Mindreaver + me on it anyway. Like, I agree, you could be right if the above is also true. But it basically assumes D_V is scum and I don't think he is. I'm pretty sure it's shadow.
Actually. How about this. You're voting no. Who do you think are the two scum on D_V's proposal and why do you think they're scum?
@Silver: Seriously? Pretend you think I'm town for a moment and it should be clear. Mechanically, either you or DV is scum. DV proposed a quest with you on it, and you're voting yes (which is suspected you would). And Osie, who is definitely scum, is also voting yes. So regardless of which of you is scum, this quest will fail.
That second piece was directed at AG, not you. Obviously it fails from your PoV, but I'm not too concerned with your PoV since you're probably scum. If you aren't scum, again, my reads are bad enough that we probably lose.
Also, Osi probably isn't scum. I suspect there might be one fail here (Cantrip) which is either Oberon or someone hoping Oberon is on the quest with them.
That second piece was directed at AG, not you. Obviously it fails from your PoV, but I'm not too concerned with your PoV since you're probably scum. If you aren't scum, again, my reads are bad enough that we probably lose.
Also, Osi probably isn't scum. I suspect there might be one fail here (Cantrip) which is either Oberon or someone hoping Oberon is on the quest with them.
Derp, sorry it totally was.
However, why are you resigned to just losing here due to possible bad reads. If this was a real LyLo in another game, you'd be giving more effort to really being sure of your reads. Also, now that Overwatch is over, you really think I'm playing similarly here?
From my PoV, you're probably scum, and even if you somehow aren't, the scum team can't afford for this quest to pass if it's good because if it does they have to bet on the assassin roulette wheel unless the next five players are all scum (hint, I'm town.) All of the people voting no against this quest isn't the slightest bit suspicious to you?
I'm resigned to losing to bad reads because (1) the deadline is in ~24 hours and (2) I don't have time to put more effort into it in that time span. If this is a good team and it doesn't pass, we probably lose because there's only one or two possible substitutions that win and they'll get voted down, too, because (let me repeat) half the players are scum. In fact, there may not even be any more good teams proposed because the list goes Brinatoo, AG, Osi, then you, which is like. The list of players most likely to be scum (minus Osi). So if you're scum, Osi's proposal not passing means we autolose unless you're Oberon and have no idea who your teammates are. Whereas if the team is good and it passes, we can force that team through by passing it to me.
And yes, I do think your play is similar to BareBones and Overwatch.
Did you notice how Osi was sure D_V was scum up until Q4 and suddenly he's swapped?
I'm aware a consensus team will fail; I'm also aware that the scum team can spill wine everywhere. I'm not putting too much stock into exactly how Osie, D_V, and Brinatoo act at this juncture. The nature of this format is that scum can do whatever they want.
My top 3 hasn't changed- I think Rhand or Proph failed that.
I already said before that you or shadow failed that other one, but this is just more mudflinging. More reason to ignore you.
While my time is shifting more towards studying, my hosted game is nearing the end so more time should come to this. If my schedule 2 weeks from now was actually now, I'd not have to study as much but my timing is impeccable.
This is a great group now.
3/3 scum vetos so far.
Rhand keeps repeating his scumread of me but doesn't adds anything new in the way of evidence. And then he goes and make conclusions about other people based on my posts. In a bad way.
Okay, all joking aside, this quest is the crucial turning point. I believe that everyone on this quest is town, and I think that if any of us 6 decide that group isn't going to work, the game is likely over.
Let's give Terry a few more hours.
@Terry: if you're scum, you better not be doing this on purpose.
Yes (2): osieorb18, Mindreaver
No (3): AtheistGod, Brinatoo, shadowlancerx
6 is majority.
-
Deadline expires in approximately 31 hours.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
So you have Rhand, Brinatoo, and shadow as scum? Who do you have as the last 2 scum?
It's not MY fault that my scum game looks the same as my town game. (It's totally my fault.)
What makes you think Osi and Cantrip can't be scum together? Anything that can townclear Cantrip or Terry would be a godsend.
VOTE: NO... ever
Lets say they are both scum.
D_V *might* be scum, but it's him or shadow either way. So 3 scum total.
Rhand is scum, so there is 4.
There is only 1 left in Terry/Brin/AG. So really in order by Osi to be scum with cantrip, it has to be a world with You, Terry, and Brin shouldn't be voting together. But, you all are.
Now, for me, I see Shadow voting no; and brin voting no. That *could* be town voting no on both those, but it sure doesn't look like it. Now with Terry voting no, I'm even more sure that Cantrip and Osi can't be scum together. That all my "have to be town in order for this to fail" are voting together says something to me.
But, it's probably more important for my validation to see where my top town reads end up. If Vaimes and Silver were to vote no, for instance, I might be able to see a Cantrip/DV/Osi scum gambit. And You/Terry/Brin/Shadow deserve my apologies.
I guess that's just how I'm reading the votes.
I'm chalking Brin's vote up to WIFOM.
My reasoning for voting is that Osie is 200% confirmed scum. D_V putting a confirmed scum on his quest just solidifies that he's scum and at least 1 of Proph or Cantrip is scum. There could be either 2 or 3 scum on this quest, but Osie going is a huge red flag.
Hes Merlin mate
Can this quest already.
Would scum!Mindreaver just so up and candidly say "Hey I agree that I should be vigged" like that? I guess I shouldn't really read too much into it given that vigging is.. not really a thing in this setup, but the way he wrote is sounds quite genuine to me. I dunno, man. All of my strategies are worthless to me this game, which is why you're getting, like, 30% of me.
I feel like this quest has too many uncertainties in order for me to pass it. I'm still fairly uncertain about Mindreaver, and adding two potential unknowns (Cantrip/osieorb) seems to be shaky when I feel like we should be going off on the information we /do/ know, which is the Q3 vote. I've been townreading everyone on the quest at various points in the game, but with five scum still there it is /extremely/ likely I've been pocketed. I'd feel much safer going off on Q3 + finding a townie.
Vote No
There's also something I want to say regarding the aftermath of Overwatch Mafia ended but I'll keep my mouth shut.
I just had a thought. Can't the scum team just always get whichever one they want if they vote first? Assume we're wrong on at least one of the people towards the front. If they vote incorrectly the scum can just vote with them. The quest will almost always be hammered before I can even vote, won't it?
Screw it.
vote: yes
Why are you voting for this group? Are you that certain D_V and Osie aren't scum?
Why?
Like, there's this thing where either most of the players voting no are scum or both of Osi and Mindreaver are because if either are town and this is a failing quest we're essentially getting slow rolled.
This quest is townie enough that town players would probably pass it if it was close to passing, right? No one on the quest is being heavily scum read. There's no reason to vote no against it as scum if this team is going to win you the game... and yet almost half the players (the "consensus" scummiest half, even) have voted against it.
Suppose the scumteam is D_V, Osie, Brinatoo, Cantrip + 1 does the voting pattern still seem so strange?
I'm basically at the point where if anyone besides Rhand/Cantrip are scum and haven't voted yet my reads are so bad we're probably going to lose anyway. And it Seemed like Cantrip intended to hammer when he got back from reading, and I wanted to try to keep the quest alive.
@AG: D_V proposed the quest because he trusts Osi and the rest of the players are basically indisputably town besides Cantrip. Like, this is exactly the kind of team I've been saying we needed to propose because if the thread consensus agrees on a team, the team will fail. That's how it goes. Half the thread is scum, so anything that looks like a consensus team is a team that at least some of them have also endorsed.
And yeah, the votes still look weird from [D_V/Cantrip/Osi/Brinatoo/+1]. For one thing, the +1 has to be Mindreaver or Rhand. And Brinatoo pretty much has to be Oberon. Because if Proph is the +1, he's not voting for the team that will win him the game and vice versa with Brinatoo +1 and Proph Oberon. And if neither is Oberon they're both not voting for the winning team.
Even if you're right and the +1 isn't Mindreaver, they can't hammer with just Mindreaver + me on it anyway. Like, I agree, you could be right if the above is also true. But it basically assumes D_V is scum and I don't think he is. I'm pretty sure it's shadow.
Actually. How about this. You're voting no. Who do you think are the two scum on D_V's proposal and why do you think they're scum?
Also, Osi probably isn't scum. I suspect there might be one fail here (Cantrip) which is either Oberon or someone hoping Oberon is on the quest with them.
However, why are you resigned to just losing here due to possible bad reads. If this was a real LyLo in another game, you'd be giving more effort to really being sure of your reads. Also, now that Overwatch is over, you really think I'm playing similarly here?
I'm resigned to losing to bad reads because (1) the deadline is in ~24 hours and (2) I don't have time to put more effort into it in that time span. If this is a good team and it doesn't pass, we probably lose because there's only one or two possible substitutions that win and they'll get voted down, too, because (let me repeat) half the players are scum. In fact, there may not even be any more good teams proposed because the list goes Brinatoo, AG, Osi, then you, which is like. The list of players most likely to be scum (minus Osi). So if you're scum, Osi's proposal not passing means we autolose unless you're Oberon and have no idea who your teammates are. Whereas if the team is good and it passes, we can force that team through by passing it to me.
And yes, I do think your play is similar to BareBones and Overwatch.
I'm aware a consensus team will fail; I'm also aware that the scum team can spill wine everywhere. I'm not putting too much stock into exactly how Osie, D_V, and Brinatoo act at this juncture. The nature of this format is that scum can do whatever they want.
I believe I explained my vote in post 1025
If you want me to, I'll post the full Osie case. I figured that most people have seen the same stuff and didn't need me to convince them.