Vaimes why are you ignoring the main point against D_V? If D_V is a town player who wasn't the NK that means there are both Doctor + Jailor and people here thinks its not possible.
Re vaimes about jailor: they won't come forward though. So..
No.
If he didn't claim anything, he would have been toDays lynch.
Jailor makes sense because it brings "someone else" into the equation, adding to the wine.
Him lying has done nothing good and could have gotten me killed last night.
Lying causes so much wifom. Intentions are not known more than what the liar says.
His flip helps my reads.
You want to lynch a claimed power role to help your reads? Solely on the basis that he's lied about a bunch of stuff? You realize that that is just a policy lynch and isn't helpful to the game at all right?
Re vaimes about jailor: they won't come forward though. So..
No.
If he didn't claim anything, he would have been toDays lynch.
Jailor makes sense because it brings "someone else" into the equation, adding to the wine.
Him lying has done nothing good and could have gotten me killed last night.
Lying causes so much wifom. Intentions are not known more than what the liar says.
His flip helps my reads.
You want to lynch a claimed power role to help your reads? Solely on the basis that he's lied about a bunch of stuff? You realize that that is just a policy lynch and isn't helpful to the game at all right?
"Claimed power role"
I can't trust anything coming out of his mouth.
He lied 3 times yesterDay.
Lied.
He is a liar.
Kill it.
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Rodemy Pizza
It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
@Cantrip: I neglected Kitty's chat after about a week when I said, "Let me know if you have any questions". All ahe asked me was what her role PM meant and then vanished, so I figured she or Brinatoo would poke me via PM to check mentor chat if she had any outstanding questions. With regards to Deus Ex and Mind Screw, I replaced in, refused to read the games (even going so far as to claim that my role disallowed me from referencing posts prior to my entrance to the game in Mind Screw so that nobody bothered me to actually comment on past events because I didn't know them). I named like 3 or 4 scum in Mind Screw but ultimately lost interest in the game because I felt like there were maybe two other town players in the game, and wasn't really having fun. In Deus Ex, I replaced in, my strongest scum reads were the VTs, and my strongest town reads were the mafia and SK. I was actually the Cop in that game and it came down to me investigating the two claimed VTs, and I got a town result on the one I chose, so we went on to lynch the other, who was the Godfather, and won.
My point is, Vaimes is making an excuse to scumread me so he can discount my views on the game because I caught him immediately by dredging up cherry-picked meta, when anyone who's played with me in the past few years knows I'm a lazy piece of ***** and hate re-reading and making catch-up posts/wall cases, even though I'm extraordinarily good at them. I know for a fact that Vaimes knows this, because I literally stated all of this in the Invitational, which we were just in together. Ergo, Vaimes's disengenuous approach to my play in this game merits a snap-vote from me, especially when coupled with his play on the ~2 pages I mostly read.
Finally, this is amplified by the fact that Vaimes's statement that I'm not already utilizing Electron Cloud is patently false, as I've already drawn Rodemy and Vaimes as an unaligned pair. I'm not obligated to announce my every thought on the game as they occur to me, and Vaimes has played with me enough to know that I will intentionally be cagey when I'm getting a feel for the flow so as to not disrupt the proceedings of the game except as I see necessary until I can solve it.
Any questions?
-
@Rodemy: You haven't even said so much as "hi" to me since I've replaced in. Generally, you're more excited to be in a game with me. What gives?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I certainly don't blame you for not reading Mind Screw.
>Vaimes is lying about publicly verifiable information
Or, y'know, I don't remember everything that happens in past games.
In my experience with you, you've always drawn from the beginning of the game to solve alignments, so forgive me for being skeptical if your entrance here.
I don't get your point re: DEM. You replaced in, had wrong reads, but won because of your Cop checks?
Soft meta read here, you never said that in bare bones.
You've said it twice in this game.
And yes. You went from "the lynch is d_v or rod" to, "d_v can't be scum and rod is town."
In less than a few posts.
I'm still mega tunneling on d_v but you have peaked my interests a few times.
You sat on the sidelines while d_v and i went back and forth. D_v called you out on it.
You say he and i are the lynch today and as soon as d_v says "lol jk"
Then you decide he isn't the lynch.
Like.. i remember you waffling, but no way this gets you waffleing.
Look at eod yesterday. He wanted me to die.
I see that zomg reacted in a way that made him think there were 2 teams, and that could be a legit reaction.
But no way zomg thought this was a multiball.
But it caused wifom. Unneccesary wifom. Because of d_v.
No nk last night. Easy picking from the lurkers yet the story here is scum try and go after d_v, who lied about everything yesterday.
How is that not raising flags for you?
The only reason has to be you know something about d_v. You even tried to go with zomgs theory about a multiball.
But why? He was distancing himself from d_v, and d_v was staying as close to him as possible so he couldn't possibly be thought of as scum.
After the jailer talk, he says the jailer thought he should false claim again. Why the hell would a jailer believe him?
He was jailed: okay, so the jailer has to think he is scumish. First thing the jailer had to do was ask why he had lied his way through d1. He spews that the nuet claim caught zomg (it didn't) and then lolol claim tracer for fun.
Then, trust him enough to not kill him. And then, trust him enough to change his reads??
I wouldn't trust d_v with anything after that d1. He'd have been dead. And i don't think there is a single player who thought d_v was remotley town after that eod.
You even said "i don't think anyone will lynch rod over you"
So he is lying. Again.
Uggh.
I hate this game. ♡♡
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Rodemy Pizza
It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
You don't need to give every sentence its own line.
You are either deliberately ignoring the context of what I said, or you just straight up didn't read it.
I'm not going to read the rest of that post, since evidently you aren't doing me the courtesy of reading mine.
---
Does anyone else think I explained myself inadequately?
I had a townread on Rod, and a light townread on DV. DV CC'd Rod, which made me then think there was a dichotomy between them, hence me urging one of those two to be the lynch (had that happened, I would have voted for DV over Rod). But then DV retracted his claim, so I went back to thinking they're both town. Throughout all of this my townread on Rod never wavered. Requesting people to choose between lynching Rod and DV =/= supporting a lynch on Rod, as he seems to be inferring.
I believe our Doctor or Roleblocker stopped the kill last night.
I was jailed last night.
I will tell the same thing I told the Jailer.
"I claimed Tracer for the lul value.
Rodemy counter claimed me. Which was god damn great. I just wanted to instantly act as ridiculous as I could. The scum now won't waste a night kill on our highest thought of town player because of all of the WIFOM and now they definitely won't waste a kill on me either."
Why don't you believe that you were the one protected from the kill?
I am reading this as "scumreading him because he's bad."
I've seen worse plays from town, so I disagree.
I mean, if you generalize any scum read as "because he's bad", you can cover a lot of ground. For example...
Someone flails -- Oh, they're just bad.
Someone jumps vote around opportunistically -- Oh, they're just bad.
Someone intentionally makes it harder for town to solve the game -- Oh, they're just bad.
I could go on, but obviously you get the point. He's just bad is hardly an excuse for behavior that is scummy -- as well as a lack of an NK after being jailed.
This feels like a very forced opinion of why it HAS to be scum!DV. Why can't it be that he was jailed and PROTECTED from the kill?
We will never know. Too much Wine. But the fact that you are trying to make it be THIS WAY and NO OTHER is concerning.
Vote Ghosting
Currently have DV as town, Vaimes as lean scum, and Rodemy as town.
Shadow as meh, Iso and "hi," Rhand as "grumpy,"...
Anak is town, Cantrip types too damn much to be scum, and Meteor will reveal his true nature over time.
@Rhand
Read a few of the threads on the site and you will find me as a bunch of alignments recently. I am too lazy to put in extra effort to tell you which games, but I can check soon if you need me to for real.
@Cantrip
Answering your questions: "no not really" and "yes it would have for sure"
@Hunt: Your point on Ghosting is a stretch. After what apparently happened on Day 1, what scum team in their right mind would try to kill D_V? He's a HUGE lynch target toDay.
I certainly don't blame you for not reading Mind Screw.
>Vaimes is lying about publicly verifiable information
Or, y'know, I don't remember everything that happens in past games.
In my experience with you, you've always drawn from the beginning of the game to solve alignments, so forgive me for being skeptical if your entrance here.
I don't get your point re: DEM. You replaced in, had wrong reads, but won because of your Cop checks?
My point is, I replaced in, didn't do a goddamn thing to solve the game, and still won it for the town, so I'm slightly ing at your immediate OMGUS vote that you justified with cherrypicked meta arguments.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Hunt: Your point on Ghosting is a stretch. After what apparently happened on Day 1, what scum team in their right mind would try to kill D_V? He's a HUGE lynch target toDay.
What do you think happened (regarding who was protected and who was targeted)?
I somehow didn't realize that the chat D_V is claiming means that the jail cannot be the reason for the failed nightkill.
I really think the jailor should just claim, but I guess that can wait another Day or two.
I've never seen the jail + chat + kill on this site, but I know that if you play Mafia on Starcraft, that is how the role works.
I just woke up. I'll try to get a reread in today.
@Ghosting: at the end of yesterDay you said you were going to push for my lynch toDay, and now you seem to have dropped me completely. What changed?
@Meat0r. They had themselves at top I edited them out and placed them somewhere else.
Someone is hungry.
But I don't see anything that jumps out in the T/S list.
The fact that people have been accusing D_V of being blocked of making the kill, and he didn't even think about not being able to do the NK anyways because he was in jail (What Shadow pointed out and D_V didn't) means one of three things:
1. D_V doesn't even think about it = town!D_V (scum!D_V would point it out immediately, since not being able to kill because jail actually happened)
2. D_V lying again and there is no jailor so it doesn't occur to D_V that if he actually jailed he can't make the NK
3. Mafia can still do the kill while in jail
I feel comfortable enough that its 1 and D_V is town.
Oh no I thought of it. Its just a stupid point because I knew I was in jail and would always know I'm in jail and thus would tell my scum partner/s to do the kill.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Hunt: Your point on Ghosting is a stretch. After what apparently happened on Day 1, what scum team in their right mind would try to kill D_V? He's a HUGE lynch target toDay.
I certainly don't blame you for not reading Mind Screw.
>Vaimes is lying about publicly verifiable information
Or, y'know, I don't remember everything that happens in past games.
In my experience with you, you've always drawn from the beginning of the game to solve alignments, so forgive me for being skeptical if your entrance here.
I don't get your point re: DEM. You replaced in, had wrong reads, but won because of your Cop checks?
My point is, I replaced in, didn't do a goddamn thing to solve the game, and still won it for the town, so I'm slightly ing at your immediate OMGUS vote that you justified with cherrypicked meta arguments.
I have no idea why i thought that.
Without the claims?
You'd have a lurking d_v, still not good for town.
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It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
My point is, I replaced in, didn't do a goddamn thing to solve the game, and still won it for the town, so I'm slightly Rolleyes ing at your immediate OMGUS vote that you justified with cherrypicked meta arguments.
I'm inclined NOT to count DEM if I'm understanding you correctly -- that you only solved the game because of mechanical information, not correct reads.
Yes?
It's not cherrypicking if it's the majority of my experience with you. It just means I don't stalk all of your games.
I somehow didn't realize that the chat D_V is claiming means that the jail cannot be the reason for the failed nightkill.
I really think the jailor should just claim, but I guess that can wait another Day or two.
I've never seen the jail + chat + kill on this site, but I know that if you play Mafia on Starcraft, that is how the role works.
I just woke up. I'll try to get a reread in today.
@Ghosting: at the end of yesterDay you said you were going to push for my lynch toDay, and now you seem to have dropped me completely. What changed?
I do still think what you did yesterday was scummy (as I explained in post 572), I'm just more concerned with D_V/Vaimes and feel that we absolutely have at least one scum in that pair, and I want to sort that out before moving onto something else. So it's not that I'm no longer reading you as scummy, it's that I don't want the D_V/Vaimes thing to be forgotten or moved on from because I think it's so important. Which makes me wonder if you want me to shift my focus to you, instead of D_V/Vaimes, in order to try to alleviate pressure on that end. Alternatively, it could be one of the most town comments you made, because town would want to follow up and check consistencies. The issue is that usually I'd ask myself "Why would scum bring attention to themselves?", and this time there's a pretty good answer, as I just explained. I think that my read on you will really become solidified once we figure out if there's any relationship between you and D_V/Vaimes (if either or both of them are scum).
@D_V/Anyone: So this is clear, is D_V claiming he's town because he would be told he's in jail, and then would go in scum chat and tell the other scum to make a kill? So do we have to assume then that he would know he's jailed? Is this typical? I always thought you found out what happened at the end of the night, like if you're a cop or something, the mod will tell you what the result was at the end of the night. Or if someone roleblocks you, it says your action failed or whatever. So why would jailer be different? I can't recall any games I've been in with a jailer so maybe it's different, but I really don't see how this excuse is valid unless that's normal. I also may be misinterpreting what is being said, in which case anyone is welcome to correct me so I understand what exactly the logic is.
The more I think about it, I think Zomg's vote on DV makes it more likely that DV is town. I know this is wifom, but: Zomg was under sudden attack (four votes in the span of five posts), DV had just "confirmed" claiming neutral, and he was one of two naked votes on the wagon (the other being Rhand, who Zomg may have feared because he's more verbose/more likely to draw scum!Zomg out), so DV would have presented an easy target. And there wasn't really any wagons to divert onto:
I was going to ask why, in 812, you just parroted my Zomg interaction investigation (in 801), but taking a closer look, I guess you are adding to the conversation.
Regarding Zomg's 296 (giving more reasons he thinks DV is town in response to DV's one-line attack): It doesn't feel placating or appeasing, which is what I would expect if Zomg were addressing town, but DV's attack was barely an attack, so...not sure. It's a bit rushed, but that's likely because he was on mobile? Regardless, the reasons he lists are pretty vague, so I guess I don't see it as terribly significant.
The request to Shadow to unvote isn't Shadow-alignment-indicative to me. I think Zomg would have done that to anyone who put him at L-2. What I find more interesting is that Vaimes picked up the banner and unvoted. L-2 is a thing for a reason; you leave them there to claim, and there's enough wiggle room that it takes TWO players going "oops, I speedvoted and ended the day", which is a lot less likely than just one. Vaimes should know this, but he backed off.
@Vaimes: Why did you unvote Zomg when he asked Shadow to?
And when you ISO, if you hover over the thread title at the top of each post (currently "Overwatch Mafia! Day 2 - Numbani"), the hyperlink that displays at the bottom of your browser shows the post number. (Guessing this probably doesn't work if you're posting from mobile.)
@Meteor: As has been pointed out, if scum!DV was jailed, he wouldn't have been chosen as the one to perform the kill, so as long as the Jailer is real (and I suspect it is), it's more likely that DV was the NK target and it was prevented as part of the jailing, or we have another protective role or something else that prevented the actual kill. And thanks for those lists. I'm not sure it helps me just yet, but could down the road.
@DV: Nothing stands out in that T/S list to me other than you being near the top. I wouldn't put Shadow as high, and I'd put Ghosting higher than Hunt, but otherwise, I feel like it mirrors a lot of end-of-D1 mentalities.
Something I fail to understand with everyone doubting DV was jailed: why would he claim that as scum?
He could claim BP. He could claim Commuter. Instead, he picked a claim that relies on someone else backing him up. He's guaranteed to die if he gets run up and no one claims to defend him (though they probably shouldn't, since outing a strong protective role that early is eh) or if other protective roles flip down the line.
Eh...these are good points.
Quote from Vaimes »
Plus, what scum claims they were jailed but they don't think that's the reason the NK was stopped? He would literally be shooting himself in the foot there.
Um, a scum that was jailed and knows that their scumbuddy attempted a kill that wasn't successful? But I agree that scum in that situation would be more likely to say "hey, I must've been the NK" for townpoints.
Quote from Vaimes »
On top of all the other nonsense he's been doing that's getting him borderline policy scumread, I really, really don't think he's mafia. He could have stuck with his Neutral claim, gotten zomg lynched for fixating on a Neutral, and been left alone for several Days.
Further, he 180'd his read on me after people started FOS'ing us as scum together. Another shot in the foot if he's scum.
I think he is town.
Does anyone disagree with this? Please do not counter with wine.
I have to laugh at you presenting a string of WIFOM arguments and then saying "do not counter with wine".
Quote from Vaimes »
@Cantrip
Re: 353, annoyed at how slow the game was, and felt like baiting Hunt to get a better read on him.
353 still feels like it was tacked on. Still, you do have a tendency to double-post...
Quote from Vaimes »
I don't really have a concrete answer for this question. I don't keep good track of my reads in long games, especially when they move so slowly and I lose interest a bit. I will say that I'm not as interested in pursuing Rhand toDay.
Was this in regards to 387? If so, it's troubling, as this is a big part of what's bothering me about you. 385 feels natural. 386 feels like you're concerned that you didn't make yourself clear in 385 (also natural). 387 feels like you suddenly realized that you hadn't really contributed recently and you needed to excuse your play/give reads...but those reads are really poor. "Everyone else is vaguely lynchable"?
Quote from Vaimes »
Re: 706, there isn't a lot to say. I point out my issue with DV's scumread on me, as well as reaffirming my read/conclusion on DV based on a previous larger post.
I still don't understand...you're saying that DV thinks you're scum because you (as hypothetical scum) tried to NK DV, knowing there are protective roles in the game rather than choosing someone else for the NK?
a) How did you know there were protective roles at that point, given that we hadn't yet learned of a Jailer (or is that just your general assumption, that all games have protective roles)?
b) I *did* feel like your 702 was saying "let's play out this DV/Rod dichotomy", and I also feel like you thought Rod to be town, so the message I took from your 702 was "let's watch scum DV squirm". So your 706 does feel like a 180, and you thumbing your nose at the idea in the same post ("And you can't accuse me of buddying you or switching my read, so nyah.") makes you sound hyperaware of that. Did you come into D2 in the mindset of "Rod is town, there's a dichotomy between Rod and DV, therefore DV is scum"? If so, what changed between 702 and 706? Ah, I see your 842...so DV's consistently lied, but he retracts his claim and suddenly you believe him?
Oh, that reminds me. @Vaimes: You said you'd explain your "You mean your play that's gonna get you PoE lynched on Day 3" comment toDay. Please add that to your list of responses.
Combination of DV's Neutral claim + lazy play = I'd want him dead by Day 3 if we hadn't lynched scum. Because coasting Neutrals are awful.
That's it.
Sorry, let me reiterate my original question from 510: How exactly does one lynch via process of elimination that early in the game? I'm specifically interested in why you chose to use the term "PoE".
My point is, Vaimes is making an excuse to scumread me so he can discount my views on the game because I caught him immediately by dredging up cherry-picked meta, when anyone who's played with me in the past few years knows I'm a lazy piece of ***** and hate re-reading and making catch-up posts/wall cases, even though I'm extraordinarily good at them. I know for a fact that Vaimes knows this, because I literally stated all of this in the Invitational, which we were just in together. Ergo, Vaimes's disengenuous approach to my play in this game merits a snap-vote from me, especially when coupled with his play on the ~2 pages I mostly read.
Finally, this is amplified by the fact that Vaimes's statement that I'm not already utilizing Electron Cloud is patently false, as I've already drawn Rodemy and Vaimes as an unaligned pair. I'm not obligated to announce my every thought on the game as they occur to me, and Vaimes has played with me enough to know that I will intentionally be cagey when I'm getting a feel for the flow so as to not disrupt the proceedings of the game except as I see necessary until I can solve it.
So....how, exactly, have you drawn the two of them as an unaligned pair?
If I hadn't claimed Tracer. Rodemy wouldn't be freaking out at all.
Because he wasn't at the end of day one.
Yet now he brings everything else up as though its a problem. When he didn't find it a problem yesterday at all.
K.
You're drawing bad lines here. Rod may well have still had a problem with you lying when you counter-name-claimed Zomg; he just didn't know that you had lied at that time. You claiming Tracer compounded that. I dislike that you're essentially dismissing Rod's arguments rather than engaging him on them.
Currently have DV as town, Vaimes as lean scum, and Rodemy as town.
Shadow as meh, Iso and "hi," Rhand as "grumpy,"...
Anak is town, Cantrip types too damn much to be scum, and Meteor will reveal his true nature over time.
This is a horrible T/S list. First off, you completely left out Ophid and Scarbo, and then you have categories of "meh", "grumpy", and "hi", none of which commit you to anything or provide any insight into your perspective at all. On top of that, you town Anak without reason or recent discussion and shelf Meteor. Your "read" on me is that I have too many words, which, as anyone who's played with me (which you have) should know, is NAI. I wordspew regardless of alignment. I love that you're taking this "one-toe-in-the-water" approach to Vaimes so that you can drop him to scum if his wagon takes hold or pull back if it doesn't. This is horrible.
Still want pressure on Vaimes, but I'm in support of pressure on Hunt, too.
Suppose D_V didn't claim Neutral or Tracer on Day 1.
What's your case?
This is a horrible question, since if DV hadn't claimed Neutral or Tracer D1 he'd have barely contributed to the game. Why are you setting Rod up like this?
Idea: if we don't lynch d_v tonight, and since there was no nk when he WAS jailed, i propose the jailer do it again to d_v.
Seriously, if there *is* a jailer, what scumteam sends jailed DV out to make the kill? Either DV was the NK target and the jailer foiled it, or something else prevented the nightkill.
@DV: Why have you not responded at all to my 801? Do you need questions spelled out for you?
1) Why do you feel like you started and/or ensured Zomg's lynch? Convince me.
2) Why did you counter-name-claim Zomg when his wagon had plenty of speed, he was under scrutiny, and--as many have agreed--he was likely to be lynched anyway? It seems to me like it would have been better, if you felt strongly that he was scum and wanted to town!Gambit him into a lynch, to have waited until his wagon faltered to do so. Instead, the process got dragged way out, as you complained about in 793, while we debated your counter-name-claiming.
3) Explain in detail why you awarded town points to Rod in 483.
@Cantripmancer: I can agree with many of the points you made, but I guess the big problem I have with D_V is if he did know he was jailed. If that is a common thing, then I do agree it's more likely he's town, unless scum is trying to trick us at the cost of losing a NK (which would be a pretty big risk, but it would give D_V auto-town status). Also, all of his play has been really sporadic and confusing, which I don't see town doing. It doesn't really benefit town, it just makes us focus on that instead of catching scum, so I'm certainly tilted towards a scumread from that as well.
@Huntzilla: In post #487, you gave us an incredibly well composed T/S list. Surprisingly, I was excluded from it, yet you voted me. Can you expand on why that is? Additionally, why are you so upset that I'm suspicious of D_V? How do you feel about me asking people to explain why they think I'm town? This feels like a very cheap and lazy attempt to start a new wagon with little to no justification. It looks like you picked a player from yesterday you thought people might get behind today, then slapped a "reason" on it to get a wagon going.
Also, just wanted to note that I'm taking the MCAT on the 19th, so while I'm not v/la, a huge chunk of my free time (which is pretty limited as is) right now is devoted to studying for that. I'll definitely still be here and reading and checking in, but my activity level will vary until then.
@Rodemy: So barring the lurking and the scum read on Vaimes (which feels like a sheep of me), can you see why your arguments seem...underwhelming? to someone who just came into the game?
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@Cantrip: I read their posts. Also, what? You realize I haven't read the game, right? How is my question anything less than valid, given that I don't know anything that's happened other than what I've seen firsthand and through hearsay? Why are you seemingly defending Rodemy in one response to me and questioning why I think he's unaligned with my current top scumread in the next? Why are you using such loaded language?
My point is, I replaced in, didn't do a goddamn thing to solve the game, and still won it for the town, so I'm slightly Rolleyes ing at your immediate/ OMGUS vote that you justified with cherrypicked meta arguments.
I'm inclined NOT to count DEM if I'm understanding you correctly -- that you only solved the game because of mechanical information, not correct reads.
Yes?
It's not cherrypicking if it's the majority of my experience with you. It just means I don't stalk all of your games.
No, I made the right choice ergo I am the best. But the point is that you tried VERY FRANTICALLY to tell everyone, "Guys, look at this thing Iso did that I haven't seen him do before that goes against something I've seen him do as town in 2 games and an SK in a 3rd!" Your tone read as panicked and OMGUSy, even outside the disingenuous nature of your argument, in question. Like...if you're going to use a "No True Scotsman" fallacy, why aren't you going to actually do your homework?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
1) Why do you feel like you started and/or ensured Zomg's lynch? Convince me.
The whole neutral thing was a gambit just to get reads. Zomg responded very poorly to that, I was also the one to zero in on his praise of me as being total BS. Compound that on the fact that I asked that for a name claim because I knew I was going to counter name claim ZOMG no matter what he claimed.
Then you have the whole Zomg implosion thing. A lot of people voted for Zomg for not insta voting me. That doesn't happen without me doing what I did. Rodemy certainly started a wagon on Zomg, but that wagon would have just dissipated after a while. I really don't think it gains any traction without me forcing Zomg into the spotlight and his reactions after that being so bad.
2) Why did you counter-name-claim Zomg when his wagon had plenty of speed, he was under scrutiny, and--as many have agreed--he was likely to be lynched anyway? It seems to me like it would have been better, if you felt strongly that he was scum and wanted to town!Gambit him into a lynch, to have waited until his wagon faltered to do so. Instead, the process got dragged way out, as you complained about in 793, while we debated your counter-name-claiming.
See above. I don't agree with that Narrative at all.
Looking to see if Iso wants to replace into kitty's slot since he was going to mentor her. That will be an easier way to seek a quick replacement. Meteorshower will replace her if not and atog if so. Standby
I'm number three. I don't know why people are remembering this as ZOMG was the lynch for the day. It wasn't. I started this damn thing.
3) Explain in detail why you awarded town points to Rod in 483.
He was actively town reading. Scum wouldn't bring it up in my mind, and he knew about it.
In my mind scum would let that misinformation sit around. While Town are the ones that would correct it. Its a pretty advanced play for scum to correct that mistake, I don't see rodemy doing that as scum.
@D_V/Anyone: So this is clear, is D_V claiming he's town because he would be told he's in jail, and then would go in scum chat and tell the other scum to make a kill? So do we have to assume then that he would know he's jailed? Is this typical? I always thought you found out what happened at the end of the night, like if you're a cop or something, the mod will tell you what the result was at the end of the night. Or if someone roleblocks you, it says your action failed or whatever. So why would jailer be different? I can't recall any games I've been in with a jailer so maybe it's different, but I really don't see how this excuse is valid unless that's normal. I also may be misinterpreting what is being said, in which case anyone is welcome to correct me so I understand what exactly the logic is.
Yes. Jailer has worked this way since the beginning of time as far as I know. There has always been a chat between Jailer and Jailed.
Additionally if I am a scum and I am "Roleblocked" why would I claim it knowing it blocked the kill. Think that logic one step further. If I am town I am always going to claim. But scum is only going to claim when the Night kill is successful. Otherwise it makes it pretty obvious what the roleblock blocked right?
Yes. Jailer has worked this way since the beginning of time as far as I know. There has always been a chat between Jailer and Jailed.
Additionally if I am a scum and I am "Roleblocked" why would I claim it knowing it blocked the kill. Think that logic one step further. If I am town I am always going to claim. But scum is only going to claim when the Night kill is successful. Otherwise it makes it pretty obvious what the roleblock blocked right?
Okay I can accept this, I do agree that the likelihood you do this as scum is far lower than if you were town. Thanks for explaining it.
I'm sorry Cantrip, but every time you ask me questions I want to throw myself off a cliff because I keep on having to dig through your big posts and reformatting them so that my posts don't look trashy/messy when I'm responding to you.
@Vaimes: Why did you unvote Zomg when he asked Shadow to?
I honestly cannot recall without ISO'ing myself, and I have a lot of posts. Do you remember the post number?
Quote from Cantrip »
Was this in regards to 387? If so, it's troubling, as this is a big part of what's bothering me about you. 385 feels natural. 386 feels like you're concerned that you didn't make yourself clear in 385 (also natural). 387 feels like you suddenly realized that you hadn't really contributed recently and you needed to excuse your play/give reads...but those reads are really poor. "Everyone else is vaguely lynchable"?
387 was mostly a reminder to refresh myself on what reads I had and why I had them, because I don't take notes.
I think I contributed plenty by that point, so.
Quote from Cantrip »
I still don't understand...you're saying that DV thinks you're scum because you (as hypothetical scum) tried to NK DV, knowing there are protective roles in the game rather than choosing someone else for the NK?
a) How did you know there were protective roles at that point, given that we hadn't yet learned of a Jailer (or is that just your general assumption, that all games have protective roles)?
b) I *did* feel like your 702 was saying "let's play out this DV/Rod dichotomy", and I also feel like you thought Rod to be town, so the message I took from your 702 was "let's watch scum DV squirm". So your 706 does feel like a 180, and you thumbing your nose at the idea in the same post ("And you can't accuse me of buddying you or switching my read, so nyah.") makes you sound hyperaware of that. Did you come into D2 in the mindset of "Rod is town, there's a dichotomy between Rod and DV, therefore DV is scum"? If so, what changed between 702 and 706? Ah, I see your 842...so DV's consistently lied, but he retracts his claim and suddenly you believe him?
It's something I always assume, at least for large games, and especially large closed-setup games. It's pretty basic/fundamental.
I have played games without protective roles, sure, but those were all much smaller setups that relied on other roles for balance. And then there are Vanilla games with only a Cop, but those are advertised as such.
People seem to forget that the only was I was considering DV to be scum was if there was more than one scumteam, which. There's no point in sweating over that right now. I gave a big red disclaimer and everything.
"DV lied" Jesus Christ, yes, he did, many times. I get it. I will not be bullied into policy scumreading him. I have assessed the situation and made my decision on how I feel about it. And if I'm wrong, oh well. It happens, I'll get over it.
Quote from Cantrip »
Sorry, let me reiterate my original question from 510: How exactly does one lynch via process of elimination that early in the game? I'm specifically interested in why you chose to use the term "PoE".
It's just a word I use.
I don't really get this question, or how to answer it beyond that. It's like when you see a word being used in a certain way, a way that doesn't necessarily conform to its exact definition (which I guess is your issue with me here, since you're implying I'm using it in a weird way)? That's how I started using it. In a way that means "I have xyz townreads, these people are leftover, lynch them."
To put it into the context of DV, my thought process was "DV is playing very lazily. He claimed Neutral. I don't like his claim or how he's playing, so if I don't have any solid scumreads soon (i.e. two Day phases from now), I'm going to lynch him (because if he's Neutral he virtually functions as an extra vote for the mafia and blah blah blah, you get it)."
No, I made the right choice ergo I am the best. But the point is that you tried VERY FRANTICALLY to tell everyone, "Guys, look at this thing Iso did that I haven't seen him do before that goes against something I've seen him do as town in 2 games and an SK in a 3rd!" Your tone read as panicked and OMGUSy, even outside the disingenuous nature of your argument, in question. Like...if you're going to use a "No True Scotsman" fallacy, why aren't you going to actually do your homework?
1. Please point out the exact posts that had a frantic or panicked tone.
2. OMGUS is not a tone.
2.1 I honestly hate how OMGUS is tossed around. It can be either "you voted me PURELY for voting you" or "according to timestamps, you voted me AFTER I voted you." Both are squarely null, so if you're going to pretend to scumread me, as least pick something more interesting.
3. I've never heard of No True Scotsman, oops.
4. You're accusing me of not doing my homework when you haven't even read the thread?
Also, what? You realize I haven't read the game, right? How is my question anything less than valid, given that I don't know anything that's happened other than what I've seen firsthand and through hearsay? Why are you seemingly defending Rodemy in one response to me and questioning why I think he's unaligned with my current top scumread in the next? Why are you using such loaded language?
Yeah, no, my bad. Totally spaced that you haven't read the game, so saw your question as disingenuous and like you were baiting Rod with bad logic. You were just trying to get him to show you his reasons other than "DV lied". Sorry.
What? How can you tell--not having read the game, to boot--from toDay's posts that Vaimes and Rodemy are not of the same alignment? You have suspicions on Vaimes and you think Rod town, ok, but...maybe I need to ask for clarification as to what your definition of unaligned pair is? Isn't it "these two players are not both town or both scum"? Ok, go ahead. From only toDay's posts, make the case that Rod and Vaimes are an unaligned pair.
The whole neutral thing was a gambit just to get reads. Zomg responded very poorly to that, I was also the one to zero in on his praise of me as being total BS. Compound that on the fact that I asked that for a name claim because I knew I was going to counter name claim ZOMG no matter what he claimed.
Then you have the whole Zomg implosion thing. A lot of people voted for Zomg for not insta voting me. That doesn't happen without me doing what I did. Rodemy certainly started a wagon on Zomg, but that wagon would have just dissipated after a while. I really don't think it gains any traction without me forcing Zomg into the spotlight and his reactions after that being so bad.
The reason you asked for a name claim was because of how Zomg responded to your neutral claim?
I'm number three. I don't know why people are remembering this as ZOMG was the lynch for the day. It wasn't. I started this damn thing.
Um, we're remembering this as ZOMG was the lynch for the day because he was. Lol. But while I think I understand what you meant, look at the timeline of events:
• 295, you claim neutral and one-line attack Zomg for town-reading you.
• 296, Zomg responds to your attack. Doesn't even mention the neutral thing.
• 302, Ghosting points out some issues with Zomg's T/S list.
• 304, Rod questions if your behavior is normal.
• 307, I point out some issues with Zomg's T/S list.
• 315, Zomg responds to me and Ghosting.
• 349, nearly two days after you "called out" Zomg, he answers Rod's question to Vaimes.
• Rod's next post calls Zomg out on it, then votes him when Zomg responds.
• At almost the same time I post an attack on Zomg.
• Rhand votes just minutes later.
• Two minutes later you're there with the third vote.
You claim that you started Zomg's lynch, but you literally sat back for two days after making a one-line attack that Zomg dismissed, then were conveniently--suddenly--online to join the wagon in a "prime" spot. No additional reasoning, nothing but a naked vote. There was no concern with Zomg's response to you, and no action taken because of it. If you were really pushing his case, why didn't you post during those two days? I think it's because it wasn't a serious attack. At least, not until you saw the wagon forming; how convenient that you just happened to be on right at that time.
Your assertion that you started Zomg's wagon is ludicrous. Rod called him out on a bad choice, and I highlighted his scummy lack of content. Heck, I would even say that Rhand was more instrumental than you were by being the first to show what was bad with Zomg's T/S list. Your one-line toss-off and subsequent sneak-vote was NOT why Zomg got lynched. You're trying to earn town points for something that's not there.
Quote from DV »
3) Explain in detail why you awarded town points to Rod in 483.
He was actively town reading. Scum wouldn't bring it up in my mind, and he knew about it.
In my mind scum would let that misinformation sit around. While Town are the ones that would correct it. Its a pretty advanced play for scum to correct that mistake, I don't see rodemy doing that as scum.
Meh, ok, I guess, but you constantly trying to paint yourself as "the townie who found and lynched Zomg" is ridiculously bad.
EWP:
@Vaimes:
(Sorry...it is 100% not my intent to make anyone want to throw themselves off a cliff when they read my posts.)
• Your unvote was 454.
• You had posted a lot by 387, but you seriously didn't have a better grasp of your suspects at that time? The whole "other than me and these two obv townreads, the rest of y'all are scummy!" thing is what gets me. The only commitment there is two very safe townreads. No indication of who you think is scum. Scum love to be on record without having actually been on record.
• Regarding your "big red disclaimer" (which you seem to fall back on quite frequently), shouldn't you have known from Brin's lynch post that there was only one mafia? In which case, if you really believed your big red post, you shouldn't have been painting a DV/Rod dichotomy in 702.
• I'm not suggesting that you should find DV scum for lying. I'm questioning why you would so readily accept his claim retraction in 703 as truth when he's lied so consistently.
• Yes, to me PoE = Process of Elimination = a logical set of statements, bordering on--or actually--fact, that prove that certain players have to be scum. For example, if all players night activities are accounted for by second parties except for one, then by PoE, that player likely made the nightkill. I can accept that you may use it differently, though. My concern was (and still is, to some degree) that you were laying the groundwork for being on record as having "expressed suspicion" of Hunt, and that you, in error, used a phrase that is usually only applied in endgame situations when more information is known than on day 3.
How do you feel about zomg voting scarbo, then? With that reasoning you should have some suspocion on him.
Out of curiosity, do you agree with my reasoning?
I'm suspicious of Zomg for a few reasons. I actually agree with D_V that Zomg's townread on him is certainly questionable, especially if D_V is telling the truth about his neutral claim. Additionally, his town/null/scum list in post #257 has reads which don't seem consistent, if that makes sense. Like he has Ophidia as town, even though he says that something he does might be scummy. And at the same time, he has me as scum, but says that I might be town, and Rhand as scum, but again another qualifier, "it might be the wine" and "TSBTBS?". So not only do I feel like the reads aren't consistent, but also that he's trying to allow himself a lot of flexibility in his reads. There's lots of what are essentially fencesits, which certainly doesn't point in his favour.
Aside from that, not much has caught my eye, but those alone have me curious. He's certainly not a townread.
THE SAME POST YOU REFERENCED.
I'm literally not even going to waste my time going through the rest of the day. Your narrative is foolish and you are purposefully misrepresenting the truth. Rodemy was still on ghosting around 282, and there was posts making reference to that.
Like IDK what your problem is but you are clearly to blinded by something IDK what to be able to look at this game. I'm done arguing about this.
You claim that you started Zomg's lynch, but you literally sat back for two days after making a one-line attack that Zomg dismissed, then were conveniently--suddenly--online to join the wagon in a "prime" spot. No additional reasoning, nothing but a naked vote. There was no concern with Zomg's response to you, and no action taken because of it. If you were really pushing his case, why didn't you post during those two days? I think it's because it wasn't a serious attack. At least, not until you saw the wagon forming; how convenient that you just happened to be on right at that time.
Also Maybe I was busy and didn't have time to read the game.
Like your attack is so juvenile I really don't even know how to respond to it.
• I'm not suggesting that you should find DV scum for lying. I'm questioning why you would so readily accept his claim retraction in 703 as truth when he's lied so consistently.
Yeah but have I lied about anything important? Why does lying to lynch a scum = to not trust worthy. What even is your logic here. Defend the argument please because I'm not seeing the connection at all.
Also if I see one more person attacking Vaimes for changing his mind I'm going to vote you so fast your head will spin. Someone changing their opinion is like the most towny thing to do. I've never understood this as a "Scum tell" because its soo EZ to come up with a list based on other peoples reads and then stick to it guns blazing for a whole game. Its actually hard to change opinions and develop new ideas.
The reason you asked for a name claim was because of how Zomg responded to your neutral claim?
YES?
How is that not clear?
Your assertion that you started Zomg's wagon is ludicrous. Rod called him out on a bad choice, and I highlighted his scummy lack of content. Heck, I would even say that Rhand was more instrumental than you were by being the first to show what was bad with Zomg's T/S list. Your one-line toss-off and subsequent sneak-vote was NOT why Zomg got lynched. You're trying to earn town points for something that's not there.
You're fixating on the Neutral claim and not on the counter name claim. I'm IDK.
Disappointing to be even having this conversation I guess. Like ZOMG doesn't get lynched without me doing what I did. Period. At least not with what ever "Case" you had.
(Sorry...it is 100% not my intent to make anyone want to throw themselves off a cliff when they read my posts.)
- Your unvote was 454.
- You had posted a lot by 387, but you seriously didn't have a better grasp of your suspects at that time? The whole "other than me and these two obv townreads, the rest of y'all are scummy!" thing is what gets me. The only commitment there is two very safe townreads. No indication of who you think is scum. Scum love to be on record without having actually been on record.
- Regarding your "big red disclaimer" (which you seem to fall back on quite frequently), shouldn't you have known from Brin's lynch post that there was only one mafia? In which case, if you really believed your big red post, you shouldn't have been painting a DV/Rod dichotomy in 702.
- I'm not suggesting that you should find DV scum for lying. I'm questioning why you would so readily accept his claim retraction in 703 as truth when he's lied so consistently.
- Yes, to me PoE = Process of Elimination = a logical set of statements, bordering on--or actually--fact, that prove that certain players have to be scum. For example, if all players night activities are accounted for by second parties except for one, then by PoE, that player likely made the nightkill. I can accept that you may use it differently, though. My concern was (and still is, to some degree) that you were laying the groundwork for being on record as having "expressed suspicion" of Hunt, and that you, in error, used a phrase that is usually only applied in endgame situations when more information is known than on day 3.
All is forgiven.
I'll answer the first one after I'm done with this post.
That was me prodding at myself to reread. Those two townreads were the only reads I was confident in /without/ rereading. It has happened before, and it will continue to happen whenever I play long games. I lose interest, I forget all but my strongest reads. And more often than not, my strongest reads are townreads.
Are you forgetting the part where Rod CC'd DV's nameclaim at EoD1? /That/ is what started the dichotomy. But then DV revoked his claim, so I revoked the supposed dichotomy.
Because I see his actions as several poor gambits that kinda worked out, but also are getting him lots of negative attention.
I don't think I've ever consciously tried to be "on the record" for anything as either alignment without actually saying the words "for the record." And a lot of my scumplay is improv. I don't really plan or strategize (unless I believe myself to be the strongest player on the team, in which case I turn into a control freak), because I think it makes me look townier. You are free to disregard this self-meta dump until one of us is dead.
Which can't be proven unless a protective role outs, which is not happening.
No.
If he didn't claim anything, he would have been toDays lynch.
Jailor makes sense because it brings "someone else" into the equation, adding to the wine.
Him lying has done nothing good and could have gotten me killed last night.
Lying causes so much wifom. Intentions are not known more than what the liar says.
His flip helps my reads.
D_V(2): Rodemy, Rhand
Iso(2): D_V, Vaimes
Vaimes(2): Iso, Cantripmancer
Mod Note: I will likely not have the time to do much tomorrow. Friday I'll be more active.
You want to lynch a claimed power role to help your reads? Solely on the basis that he's lied about a bunch of stuff? You realize that that is just a policy lynch and isn't helpful to the game at all right?
"Claimed power role"
I can't trust anything coming out of his mouth.
He lied 3 times yesterDay.
Lied.
He is a liar.
Kill it.
No.
My point is, Vaimes is making an excuse to scumread me so he can discount my views on the game because I caught him immediately by dredging up cherry-picked meta, when anyone who's played with me in the past few years knows I'm a lazy piece of ***** and hate re-reading and making catch-up posts/wall cases, even though I'm extraordinarily good at them. I know for a fact that Vaimes knows this, because I literally stated all of this in the Invitational, which we were just in together. Ergo, Vaimes's disengenuous approach to my play in this game merits a snap-vote from me, especially when coupled with his play on the ~2 pages I mostly read.
Finally, this is amplified by the fact that Vaimes's statement that I'm not already utilizing Electron Cloud is patently false, as I've already drawn Rodemy and Vaimes as an unaligned pair. I'm not obligated to announce my every thought on the game as they occur to me, and Vaimes has played with me enough to know that I will intentionally be cagey when I'm getting a feel for the flow so as to not disrupt the proceedings of the game except as I see necessary until I can solve it.
Any questions?
-
@Rodemy: You haven't even said so much as "hi" to me since I've replaced in. Generally, you're more excited to be in a game with me. What gives?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Super distracted with trying to lynch d_v tbh.
Call it a tunnel. Idgaf.
I did ask you a question though.
"Why vote vaimes and not d_v"?
Aren't you a believer in Lynch all Liars?
So, there.
I am just balls deep in thinking d_v is scum. And in my head it fits. I'm stuck there.
*shrug* you could be scum and i would be 100% oblivious.
But i am stuck on d_v (and by association, vaimes)
Sorry for the neglect
>Vaimes is lying about publicly verifiable information
Or, y'know, I don't remember everything that happens in past games.
In my experience with you, you've always drawn from the beginning of the game to solve alignments, so forgive me for being skeptical if your entrance here.
I don't get your point re: DEM. You replaced in, had wrong reads, but won because of your Cop checks?
unvote vote vaimes
His 180 on d_v just makes me wanna lynch him.
Since d_v is not gonna be lynched toDay, might as well go for his buddym
There was no 180.
Soft meta read here, you never said that in bare bones.
You've said it twice in this game.
And yes. You went from "the lynch is d_v or rod" to, "d_v can't be scum and rod is town."
In less than a few posts.
I'm still mega tunneling on d_v but you have peaked my interests a few times.
You sat on the sidelines while d_v and i went back and forth. D_v called you out on it.
You say he and i are the lynch today and as soon as d_v says "lol jk"
Then you decide he isn't the lynch.
Like.. i remember you waffling, but no way this gets you waffleing.
Look at eod yesterday. He wanted me to die.
I see that zomg reacted in a way that made him think there were 2 teams, and that could be a legit reaction.
But no way zomg thought this was a multiball.
But it caused wifom. Unneccesary wifom. Because of d_v.
No nk last night. Easy picking from the lurkers yet the story here is scum try and go after d_v, who lied about everything yesterday.
How is that not raising flags for you?
The only reason has to be you know something about d_v. You even tried to go with zomgs theory about a multiball.
But why? He was distancing himself from d_v, and d_v was staying as close to him as possible so he couldn't possibly be thought of as scum.
After the jailer talk, he says the jailer thought he should false claim again. Why the hell would a jailer believe him?
He was jailed: okay, so the jailer has to think he is scumish. First thing the jailer had to do was ask why he had lied his way through d1. He spews that the nuet claim caught zomg (it didn't) and then lolol claim tracer for fun.
Then, trust him enough to not kill him. And then, trust him enough to change his reads??
I wouldn't trust d_v with anything after that d1. He'd have been dead. And i don't think there is a single player who thought d_v was remotley town after that eod.
You even said "i don't think anyone will lynch rod over you"
So he is lying. Again.
Uggh.
I hate this game. ♡♡
You are either deliberately ignoring the context of what I said, or you just straight up didn't read it.
I'm not going to read the rest of that post, since evidently you aren't doing me the courtesy of reading mine.
---
Does anyone else think I explained myself inadequately?
I had a townread on Rod, and a light townread on DV. DV CC'd Rod, which made me then think there was a dichotomy between them, hence me urging one of those two to be the lynch (had that happened, I would have voted for DV over Rod). But then DV retracted his claim, so I went back to thinking they're both town. Throughout all of this my townread on Rod never wavered. Requesting people to choose between lynching Rod and DV =/= supporting a lynch on Rod, as he seems to be inferring.
Yet here we are. If I'm scum, I am deliberately making the game harder for myself here.
Whereas town!me simply doesn't believe that DV is mafia. I am not infallible and could be wrong on him, but as it stands, I don't think so.
If I hadn't claimed Tracer. Rodemy wouldn't be freaking out at all.
Because he wasn't at the end of day one.
Yet now he brings everything else up as though its a problem. When he didn't find it a problem yesterday at all.
K.
We will never know. Too much Wine. But the fact that you are trying to make it be THIS WAY and NO OTHER is concerning.
Vote Ghosting
Currently have DV as town, Vaimes as lean scum, and Rodemy as town.
Shadow as meh, Iso and "hi," Rhand as "grumpy,"...
Anak is town, Cantrip types too damn much to be scum, and Meteor will reveal his true nature over time.
@Rhand
Read a few of the threads on the site and you will find me as a bunch of alignments recently. I am too lazy to put in extra effort to tell you which games, but I can check soon if you need me to for real.
@Cantrip
Answering your questions: "no not really" and "yes it would have for sure"
Anything else anybody want to know?
A little bit of expanding on your reads and why you have them would be ace.
Another question: do you believe both Ghosting and I are scum?
When have I EVER been a proponent of Lynch All Liars?
Suppose D_V didn't claim Neutral or Tracer on Day 1.
What's your case?
My point is, I replaced in, didn't do a goddamn thing to solve the game, and still won it for the town, so I'm slightly ing at your immediate OMGUS vote that you justified with cherrypicked meta arguments.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Did they actually put you as top town or did you edit that?
If they did after all the lies yesterday, yeah they are probably mafia.
He already said why in his earlier posts.
It looks like you searched for whatever reason to start a new wagon on someone.
Thanks for the inspiring opinions.
Who are your buddies?
Vote: Huntzilla
What do you think happened (regarding who was protected and who was targeted)?
I somehow didn't realize that the chat D_V is claiming means that the jail cannot be the reason for the failed nightkill.
I really think the jailor should just claim, but I guess that can wait another Day or two.
I've never seen the jail + chat + kill on this site, but I know that if you play Mafia on Starcraft, that is how the role works.
I just woke up. I'll try to get a reread in today.
@Ghosting: at the end of yesterDay you said you were going to push for my lynch toDay, and now you seem to have dropped me completely. What changed?
Someone is hungry.
But I don't see anything that jumps out in the T/S list.
The fact that people have been accusing D_V of being blocked of making the kill, and he didn't even think about not being able to do the NK anyways because he was in jail (What Shadow pointed out and D_V didn't) means one of three things:
1. D_V doesn't even think about it = town!D_V (scum!D_V would point it out immediately, since not being able to kill because jail actually happened)
2. D_V lying again and there is no jailor so it doesn't occur to D_V that if he actually jailed he can't make the NK
3. Mafia can still do the kill while in jail
I feel comfortable enough that its 1 and D_V is town.
Makes like zero sense.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I have no idea why i thought that.
Without the claims?
You'd have a lurking d_v, still not good for town.
>:[ *grumble* if there isn't a jailor imma be pissed.
Yes?
It's not cherrypicking if it's the majority of my experience with you. It just means I don't stalk all of your games.
I do still think what you did yesterday was scummy (as I explained in post 572), I'm just more concerned with D_V/Vaimes and feel that we absolutely have at least one scum in that pair, and I want to sort that out before moving onto something else. So it's not that I'm no longer reading you as scummy, it's that I don't want the D_V/Vaimes thing to be forgotten or moved on from because I think it's so important. Which makes me wonder if you want me to shift my focus to you, instead of D_V/Vaimes, in order to try to alleviate pressure on that end. Alternatively, it could be one of the most town comments you made, because town would want to follow up and check consistencies. The issue is that usually I'd ask myself "Why would scum bring attention to themselves?", and this time there's a pretty good answer, as I just explained. I think that my read on you will really become solidified once we figure out if there's any relationship between you and D_V/Vaimes (if either or both of them are scum).
@D_V/Anyone: So this is clear, is D_V claiming he's town because he would be told he's in jail, and then would go in scum chat and tell the other scum to make a kill? So do we have to assume then that he would know he's jailed? Is this typical? I always thought you found out what happened at the end of the night, like if you're a cop or something, the mod will tell you what the result was at the end of the night. Or if someone roleblocks you, it says your action failed or whatever. So why would jailer be different? I can't recall any games I've been in with a jailer so maybe it's different, but I really don't see how this excuse is valid unless that's normal. I also may be misinterpreting what is being said, in which case anyone is welcome to correct me so I understand what exactly the logic is.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
The more I think about it, I think Zomg's vote on DV makes it more likely that DV is town. I know this is wifom, but: Zomg was under sudden attack (four votes in the span of five posts), DV had just "confirmed" claiming neutral, and he was one of two naked votes on the wagon (the other being Rhand, who Zomg may have feared because he's more verbose/more likely to draw scum!Zomg out), so DV would have presented an easy target. And there wasn't really any wagons to divert onto:
I was going to ask why, in 812, you just parroted my Zomg interaction investigation (in 801), but taking a closer look, I guess you are adding to the conversation.
Regarding Zomg's 296 (giving more reasons he thinks DV is town in response to DV's one-line attack): It doesn't feel placating or appeasing, which is what I would expect if Zomg were addressing town, but DV's attack was barely an attack, so...not sure. It's a bit rushed, but that's likely because he was on mobile? Regardless, the reasons he lists are pretty vague, so I guess I don't see it as terribly significant.
The request to Shadow to unvote isn't Shadow-alignment-indicative to me. I think Zomg would have done that to anyone who put him at L-2. What I find more interesting is that Vaimes picked up the banner and unvoted. L-2 is a thing for a reason; you leave them there to claim, and there's enough wiggle room that it takes TWO players going "oops, I speedvoted and ended the day", which is a lot less likely than just one. Vaimes should know this, but he backed off.
@Vaimes: Why did you unvote Zomg when he asked Shadow to?
And when you ISO, if you hover over the thread title at the top of each post (currently "Overwatch Mafia! Day 2 - Numbani"), the hyperlink that displays at the bottom of your browser shows the post number. (Guessing this probably doesn't work if you're posting from mobile.)
@Meteor: As has been pointed out, if scum!DV was jailed, he wouldn't have been chosen as the one to perform the kill, so as long as the Jailer is real (and I suspect it is), it's more likely that DV was the NK target and it was prevented as part of the jailing, or we have another protective role or something else that prevented the actual kill. And thanks for those lists. I'm not sure it helps me just yet, but could down the road.
@DV: Nothing stands out in that T/S list to me other than you being near the top. I wouldn't put Shadow as high, and I'd put Ghosting higher than Hunt, but otherwise, I feel like it mirrors a lot of end-of-D1 mentalities.
Eh...these are good points.
Um, a scum that was jailed and knows that their scumbuddy attempted a kill that wasn't successful? But I agree that scum in that situation would be more likely to say "hey, I must've been the NK" for townpoints.
I have to laugh at you presenting a string of WIFOM arguments and then saying "do not counter with wine".
353 still feels like it was tacked on. Still, you do have a tendency to double-post...
Was this in regards to 387? If so, it's troubling, as this is a big part of what's bothering me about you. 385 feels natural. 386 feels like you're concerned that you didn't make yourself clear in 385 (also natural). 387 feels like you suddenly realized that you hadn't really contributed recently and you needed to excuse your play/give reads...but those reads are really poor. "Everyone else is vaguely lynchable"?
I still don't understand...you're saying that DV thinks you're scum because you (as hypothetical scum) tried to NK DV, knowing there are protective roles in the game rather than choosing someone else for the NK?
a) How did you know there were protective roles at that point, given that we hadn't yet learned of a Jailer (or is that just your general assumption, that all games have protective roles)?
b) I *did* feel like your 702 was saying "let's play out this DV/Rod dichotomy", and I also feel like you thought Rod to be town, so the message I took from your 702 was "let's watch scum DV squirm". So your 706 does feel like a 180, and you thumbing your nose at the idea in the same post ("And you can't accuse me of buddying you or switching my read, so nyah.") makes you sound hyperaware of that. Did you come into D2 in the mindset of "Rod is town, there's a dichotomy between Rod and DV, therefore DV is scum"? If so, what changed between 702 and 706? Ah, I see your 842...so DV's consistently lied, but he retracts his claim and suddenly you believe him?
Sorry, let me reiterate my original question from 510: How exactly does one lynch via process of elimination that early in the game? I'm specifically interested in why you chose to use the term "PoE".
So....how, exactly, have you drawn the two of them as an unaligned pair?
You're drawing bad lines here. Rod may well have still had a problem with you lying when you counter-name-claimed Zomg; he just didn't know that you had lied at that time. You claiming Tracer compounded that. I dislike that you're essentially dismissing Rod's arguments rather than engaging him on them.
This is a horrible T/S list. First off, you completely left out Ophid and Scarbo, and then you have categories of "meh", "grumpy", and "hi", none of which commit you to anything or provide any insight into your perspective at all. On top of that, you town Anak without reason or recent discussion and shelf Meteor. Your "read" on me is that I have too many words, which, as anyone who's played with me (which you have) should know, is NAI. I wordspew regardless of alignment. I love that you're taking this "one-toe-in-the-water" approach to Vaimes so that you can drop him to scum if his wagon takes hold or pull back if it doesn't. This is horrible.
Still want pressure on Vaimes, but I'm in support of pressure on Hunt, too.
This is a horrible question, since if DV hadn't claimed Neutral or Tracer D1 he'd have barely contributed to the game. Why are you setting Rod up like this?
Seriously, if there *is* a jailer, what scumteam sends jailed DV out to make the kill? Either DV was the NK target and the jailer foiled it, or something else prevented the nightkill.
@DV: Why have you not responded at all to my 801? Do you need questions spelled out for you?
1) Why do you feel like you started and/or ensured Zomg's lynch? Convince me.
2) Why did you counter-name-claim Zomg when his wagon had plenty of speed, he was under scrutiny, and--as many have agreed--he was likely to be lynched anyway? It seems to me like it would have been better, if you felt strongly that he was scum and wanted to town!Gambit him into a lynch, to have waited until his wagon faltered to do so. Instead, the process got dragged way out, as you complained about in 793, while we debated your counter-name-claiming.
3) Explain in detail why you awarded town points to Rod in 483.
@Huntzilla: In post #487, you gave us an incredibly well composed T/S list. Surprisingly, I was excluded from it, yet you voted me. Can you expand on why that is? Additionally, why are you so upset that I'm suspicious of D_V? How do you feel about me asking people to explain why they think I'm town? This feels like a very cheap and lazy attempt to start a new wagon with little to no justification. It looks like you picked a player from yesterday you thought people might get behind today, then slapped a "reason" on it to get a wagon going.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
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@Cantrip: I read their posts. Also, what? You realize I haven't read the game, right? How is my question anything less than valid, given that I don't know anything that's happened other than what I've seen firsthand and through hearsay? Why are you seemingly defending Rodemy in one response to me and questioning why I think he's unaligned with my current top scumread in the next? Why are you using such loaded language?
No, I made the right choice ergo I am the best. But the point is that you tried VERY FRANTICALLY to tell everyone, "Guys, look at this thing Iso did that I haven't seen him do before that goes against something I've seen him do as town in 2 games and an SK in a 3rd!" Your tone read as panicked and OMGUSy, even outside the disingenuous nature of your argument, in question. Like...if you're going to use a "No True Scotsman" fallacy, why aren't you going to actually do your homework?
no ur rejected
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The whole neutral thing was a gambit just to get reads. Zomg responded very poorly to that, I was also the one to zero in on his praise of me as being total BS. Compound that on the fact that I asked that for a name claim because I knew I was going to counter name claim ZOMG no matter what he claimed.
Then you have the whole Zomg implosion thing. A lot of people voted for Zomg for not insta voting me. That doesn't happen without me doing what I did. Rodemy certainly started a wagon on Zomg, but that wagon would have just dissipated after a while. I really don't think it gains any traction without me forcing Zomg into the spotlight and his reactions after that being so bad.
See above. I don't agree with that Narrative at all.
Like look at this vote count
I'm number three. I don't know why people are remembering this as ZOMG was the lynch for the day. It wasn't. I started this damn thing.
He was actively town reading. Scum wouldn't bring it up in my mind, and he knew about it.
In my mind scum would let that misinformation sit around. While Town are the ones that would correct it. Its a pretty advanced play for scum to correct that mistake, I don't see rodemy doing that as scum.
Yes. Jailer has worked this way since the beginning of time as far as I know. There has always been a chat between Jailer and Jailed.
Additionally if I am a scum and I am "Roleblocked" why would I claim it knowing it blocked the kill. Think that logic one step further. If I am town I am always going to claim. But scum is only going to claim when the Night kill is successful. Otherwise it makes it pretty obvious what the roleblock blocked right?
Okay I can accept this, I do agree that the likelihood you do this as scum is far lower than if you were town. Thanks for explaining it.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
387 was mostly a reminder to refresh myself on what reads I had and why I had them, because I don't take notes.
I think I contributed plenty by that point, so.
It's something I always assume, at least for large games, and especially large closed-setup games. It's pretty basic/fundamental.
I have played games without protective roles, sure, but those were all much smaller setups that relied on other roles for balance. And then there are Vanilla games with only a Cop, but those are advertised as such.
People seem to forget that the only was I was considering DV to be scum was if there was more than one scumteam, which. There's no point in sweating over that right now. I gave a big red disclaimer and everything.
"DV lied" Jesus Christ, yes, he did, many times. I get it. I will not be bullied into policy scumreading him. I have assessed the situation and made my decision on how I feel about it. And if I'm wrong, oh well. It happens, I'll get over it.
It's just a word I use.
I don't really get this question, or how to answer it beyond that. It's like when you see a word being used in a certain way, a way that doesn't necessarily conform to its exact definition (which I guess is your issue with me here, since you're implying I'm using it in a weird way)? That's how I started using it. In a way that means "I have xyz townreads, these people are leftover, lynch them."
To put it into the context of DV, my thought process was "DV is playing very lazily. He claimed Neutral. I don't like his claim or how he's playing, so if I don't have any solid scumreads soon (i.e. two Day phases from now), I'm going to lynch him (because if he's Neutral he virtually functions as an extra vote for the mafia and blah blah blah, you get it)."
Does that make sense?
2. OMGUS is not a tone.
2.1 I honestly hate how OMGUS is tossed around. It can be either "you voted me PURELY for voting you" or "according to timestamps, you voted me AFTER I voted you." Both are squarely null, so if you're going to pretend to scumread me, as least pick something more interesting.
3. I've never heard of No True Scotsman, oops.
4. You're accusing me of not doing my homework when you haven't even read the thread?
What? How can you tell--not having read the game, to boot--from toDay's posts that Vaimes and Rodemy are not of the same alignment? You have suspicions on Vaimes and you think Rod town, ok, but...maybe I need to ask for clarification as to what your definition of unaligned pair is? Isn't it "these two players are not both town or both scum"? Ok, go ahead. From only toDay's posts, make the case that Rod and Vaimes are an unaligned pair.
The reason you asked for a name claim was because of how Zomg responded to your neutral claim?
Um, we're remembering this as ZOMG was the lynch for the day because he was. Lol. But while I think I understand what you meant, look at the timeline of events:
• 295, you claim neutral and one-line attack Zomg for town-reading you.
• 296, Zomg responds to your attack. Doesn't even mention the neutral thing.
• 302, Ghosting points out some issues with Zomg's T/S list.
• 304, Rod questions if your behavior is normal.
• 307, I point out some issues with Zomg's T/S list.
• 315, Zomg responds to me and Ghosting.
• 349, nearly two days after you "called out" Zomg, he answers Rod's question to Vaimes.
• Rod's next post calls Zomg out on it, then votes him when Zomg responds.
• At almost the same time I post an attack on Zomg.
• Rhand votes just minutes later.
• Two minutes later you're there with the third vote.
You claim that you started Zomg's lynch, but you literally sat back for two days after making a one-line attack that Zomg dismissed, then were conveniently--suddenly--online to join the wagon in a "prime" spot. No additional reasoning, nothing but a naked vote. There was no concern with Zomg's response to you, and no action taken because of it. If you were really pushing his case, why didn't you post during those two days? I think it's because it wasn't a serious attack. At least, not until you saw the wagon forming; how convenient that you just happened to be on right at that time.
Your assertion that you started Zomg's wagon is ludicrous. Rod called him out on a bad choice, and I highlighted his scummy lack of content. Heck, I would even say that Rhand was more instrumental than you were by being the first to show what was bad with Zomg's T/S list. Your one-line toss-off and subsequent sneak-vote was NOT why Zomg got lynched. You're trying to earn town points for something that's not there.
Meh, ok, I guess, but you constantly trying to paint yourself as "the townie who found and lynched Zomg" is ridiculously bad.
EWP:
@Vaimes:
(Sorry...it is 100% not my intent to make anyone want to throw themselves off a cliff when they read my posts.)
• Your unvote was 454.
• You had posted a lot by 387, but you seriously didn't have a better grasp of your suspects at that time? The whole "other than me and these two obv townreads, the rest of y'all are scummy!" thing is what gets me. The only commitment there is two very safe townreads. No indication of who you think is scum. Scum love to be on record without having actually been on record.
• Regarding your "big red disclaimer" (which you seem to fall back on quite frequently), shouldn't you have known from Brin's lynch post that there was only one mafia? In which case, if you really believed your big red post, you shouldn't have been painting a DV/Rod dichotomy in 702.
• I'm not suggesting that you should find DV scum for lying. I'm questioning why you would so readily accept his claim retraction in 703 as truth when he's lied so consistently.
• Yes, to me PoE = Process of Elimination = a logical set of statements, bordering on--or actually--fact, that prove that certain players have to be scum. For example, if all players night activities are accounted for by second parties except for one, then by PoE, that player likely made the nightkill. I can accept that you may use it differently, though. My concern was (and still is, to some degree) that you were laying the groundwork for being on record as having "expressed suspicion" of Hunt, and that you, in error, used a phrase that is usually only applied in endgame situations when more information is known than on day 3.
THE SAME POST YOU REFERENCED.
I'm literally not even going to waste my time going through the rest of the day. Your narrative is foolish and you are purposefully misrepresenting the truth. Rodemy was still on ghosting around 282, and there was posts making reference to that.
Like IDK what your problem is but you are clearly to blinded by something IDK what to be able to look at this game. I'm done arguing about this.
If you remove what I developed. Tell me what the case on him was.
Please.
Also Maybe I was busy and didn't have time to read the game.
Like your attack is so juvenile I really don't even know how to respond to it.
Yeah but have I lied about anything important? Why does lying to lynch a scum = to not trust worthy. What even is your logic here. Defend the argument please because I'm not seeing the connection at all.
Also if I see one more person attacking Vaimes for changing his mind I'm going to vote you so fast your head will spin. Someone changing their opinion is like the most towny thing to do. I've never understood this as a "Scum tell" because its soo EZ to come up with a list based on other peoples reads and then stick to it guns blazing for a whole game. Its actually hard to change opinions and develop new ideas.
YES?
How is that not clear?
You're fixating on the Neutral claim and not on the counter name claim. I'm IDK.
Disappointing to be even having this conversation I guess. Like ZOMG doesn't get lynched without me doing what I did. Period. At least not with what ever "Case" you had.
I'll answer the first one after I'm done with this post.
That was me prodding at myself to reread. Those two townreads were the only reads I was confident in /without/ rereading. It has happened before, and it will continue to happen whenever I play long games. I lose interest, I forget all but my strongest reads. And more often than not, my strongest reads are townreads.
Are you forgetting the part where Rod CC'd DV's nameclaim at EoD1? /That/ is what started the dichotomy. But then DV revoked his claim, so I revoked the supposed dichotomy.
Because I see his actions as several poor gambits that kinda worked out, but also are getting him lots of negative attention.
I don't think I've ever consciously tried to be "on the record" for anything as either alignment without actually saying the words "for the record." And a lot of my scumplay is improv. I don't really plan or strategize (unless I believe myself to be the strongest player on the team, in which case I turn into a control freak), because I think it makes me look townier. You are free to disregard this self-meta dump until one of us is dead.