Part 1 of my catchup is coming now!
Part 2 will be on its way tomorrow, and Part 2 will be the impressive country where I hope the bulk of the work will come from whereas Part 1 is waiting for someone to get ready so we can get some food so will probably be less visually pleasing.
Tom, where is all of that beautiful, beautiful solving? You said you wanted to solve the game together and then didn't really hold up your end of the bargain; it's like you told me you loved me and you were excited to start a beautiful new relationship with me and then the next day in school you didn't even so much as look at me.
Or are there things that you've been doing since my entry that I've been missing?
I've cleared your slot.
Now you do something awesome and I'll sheep you if it aligns with my preconceived notions.
That's not playing good support; I don't think that I'll have much trouble pushing preferred lynches through in this game, and so I'd prefer someone to act as a sounding board a great deal more than I'd like an extra vote. Your Iso read - could you walk me through it in depth? What do you think of Ecophagy?
Iso is, unfortunately, not a super in depth read.
It's just feels for his motivations.
When people are looking his way he shakes things up.
Wanting townread for his veracity rather than wanting his reads listened to.
Pushing a narrative but caring too much about ordering.
Eco I think responded pretty well to pressure.
I put way too much thought into his gold star towards seppel early.
I liked it because it was chippy in a dismissive way that wouldn't come as natural if he knew seppel was right.
But it also has a chance at being appeasing seppel on some form of "his level" which is ?
He's been pretty reasonable throughout and I've liked where he's at with iso.
Just to let you guys know, I probably won't be as active in this game as I usually am. This is because I'm a strong town PR and want to keep my head down.
This already looks like the type of post that is Vaimes sticking out his neck in a way that would be odd if he were scum; I'm not sure how confident he is as scum (or if he would even interpret this as a risk or not), but I don't think that people who aren't so confident in playing scum would probably be less likely to make a play like this to start things off.
I read the posts, and didn't feel the need to comment on them.
Or rather, didn't feel I had anything substantial to say about it as it stands currently.
Your "Vaimes is pissed that everyone who knows how awful his scumgame is rolled town" hypothesis was posed a little too early, I think.
I've got my eye on you now.
As something more solid, I liked Vaimes's approach to Newcomb quite a bit; I thought that the confidence that he pushed back with was pretty much explicitly town!Vaimes.
Newcomb's opening I don't have any particular reasons for liking, but it seemed like his opening was excited and aggressive enough that it lines up much more with his town meta than his scum meta, that tends to seem a lot more methodical in general unless it's changed since I've seen him as a baddie last.
Iso's opening seems like a usual Iso opening; for those of you who say that he's not "explaining his reads" or "solving the game", he certainly started off on that foot. His approach with Chris also seemed OK.
Seppel's opening also seems pretty solid.
Noting #91 as another mason interaction.
I'm not sure that I really like Ecophagy's response to his wagon.
-For one, his attack on Voxx was a bit awkward; he dings Voxx for "justifying a vote on him and yet not voting", but Voxx already had a push that he was making on thug and leaving that vote for something that Voxx disliked a little bit seems like it would be incredibly... dumb?
-I don't like his response to the Az push. The "you are either voting for pressure or following a Seppel!tell" is obviously not the case, and the "oh what egregious scumtell have I committed?" rings pretty fake - it was a page 2 wagon, you don't need an "egregious scumtell" to push a page 1 wagon and Eco is perfectly aware of that, and it was before Az's "let's YOLO-lynch Ecophagy!" post so it's not like that was his primary concern.
Tom, why did you end up disliking the Eco vote as well (and voting Az for it) and then backing off to push Eco before immediately unvoting? I'd imagine that you'd be a bit more cavalier about an early push on him unless you thought there was a decent chance of a lynch actually going through, and in that case, I'd imagine you'd fine a spidery way to say "don't blow your load just yet ladies and gentlemen". I don't understand why you decided to "save him for later" when you ended up not having any particularly good pushes at the time.
I agree with Iso that GJ's "everyone should be alarmed that this wagon is happening too quickly!" seemed wonky; would like his opinion on Tom's reaction to the wagon forming early on.
Newcomb's big post looks town as ****.
In Ecophagy's dig at Iso... I think that looking at Az/Seppel as wagon starters and not Vaimes is fine based on the nature of Vaimes's vote (didn't have the same conviction as the other two votes did) and fail to see how that particular interpretation would change regardless of if Iso is town or scum unless you think he's less perceptive as scum or some stupid crap like that.
And Tom, how did you end up with a townread on Eco?
GJ, how did you get that Tom seemed more "interactive" than any other player early game?
Why did you include Iso in your three man scumteam when his scumtell was "reading you worth a *****"?
GJ's followup posts look like annoyed town (I like his pushes on Azrael, and I like his pushback towards Vaimes).
Azrael's 145, re: Iso is accusing GJ of "soft pedaling the wagon" - I don't think that's necessarily true. I think that GJ's reaction towards the reaction was a weird type of pushback for the same reason you thought that his pushback towards you was weird; I don't get your criticism of Iso here.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't like Ecophagy's continued scumread of Voxxicus in 154. The entire basis of his scumread is that Voxx made that post on him that set the precedent for votes on this wagon but didn't vote on it (which is something his townread did as well, albeit in a slightly altered way). I also think that his "Seppel hatched a scum plan to tunnel the first person who posted!" is a bit ridiculous, but not sure if it's an alignment-relevant ridiculous.
Doesn't matter what order we lynch the scum in, here, because I'm not using their corpses to turn ??? reads into scum reads and there's no particular scum player in this game that outshines the other two. If there's enough support for a GJ lynch toDay, I will be on the wagon, as with Cyan and Eco lynches.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Doesn't matter what order we lynch the scum in, here, because I'm not using their corpses to turn ??? reads into scum reads and there's no particular scum player in this game that outshines the other two. If there's enough support for a GJ lynch toDay, I will be on the wagon, as with Cyan and Eco lynches.
so, a gj wagon sprung up while you sat on cyan.
Why weren't you a driving force?
Doesn't matter what order we lynch the scum in, here, because I'm not using their corpses to turn ??? reads into scum reads and there's no particular scum player in this game that outshines the other two. If there's enough support for a GJ lynch toDay, I will be on the wagon, as with Cyan and Eco lynches.
so, a gj wagon sprung up while you sat on cyan.
Why weren't you a driving force?
Because I don't think there's enough support to push a GJ wagon through toDay. Cyan seems like a much more palatable lynch to a lot of people.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
i know where i think the game is headed and i notice people who change that direction.
normally you are a changer of direction.
since when does iso care about lynches being palatable?
it only matters that theyre right
After 4-5 ISOs on my uncleared slots, he was the only person who definitely moved up the charts for me. I'll dig up some of the posts I liked out of him; he had a number of posts where he was...kind of keeping it real, in a very down-to-earth, townie fashion. Many of them were in his responses to Iso's attacks.
Yeah, do that, because I'm looking at GJ's ISO and I'm not really seeing anything that convinces me that this guy is genuinely trying to solve the game.
Skimmed Cyan's ISO in Predator. He seemed the tiniest bit more invested over there.
Or at least he made more of an effort to.
Being uninvested in his reads isn't a scumtell, sure. But I think pushing the same exact scumreads from his second post could be, considering how often he's thrown his vote around and visibly reevaluated on reads in the towngames of his I happened to be in or read (Stargate, AA, C&B). I think if he was going to be uninterested in this game even BEFORE it started (assumption), I'd imagine he'd have an even harder time mustering any kind of enthusiasm if he discovered he had a scum PM.
A)I am a far better scum player than town one, and actively enjoy it more.
B)If you think that I don't have a tendency to stick to one person stubbornly when I think they're scum, you REALLY don't know my game at all. My nickname for years was(is)? 'The Train With No Breaks'. I even had a customer avatar for it that the mafia guild made me.
A)I am a far better scum player than town one, and actively enjoy it more.
B)If you think that I don't have a tendency to stick to one person stubbornly when I think they're scum, you REALLY don't know my game at all. My nickname for years was(is)? 'The Train With No Breaks'. I even had a customer avatar for it that the mafia guild made me.
You're right, I don't know your game. I'm making a lot of guesses here.
i know where i think the game is headed and i notice people who change that direction.
normally you are a changer of direction.
since when does iso care about lynches being palatable?
it only matters that theyre right
also
why is gj less palatable?
Okay, so me voting GJ would have done absolutely nothing except detract from the Cyan wagon at that juncture due to gameflow.
Yes, normally I'm a changer of direction.
I care about the lynch being palatable because why would I waste my vote on somebody who's not going to get lynched toDay as long as I'm voting scum, especially if they're the lynch for the Day? Of course I'm right. I'm The Goddamn Iso. Any of my 3 scumspects are wonderful lynches toDay. Whether or not everyone else sees it that way is outside of the realm of my control short of taking up the arms and leading the charge...which I have no particular interest in doing. My cases are solid, and the posts since I've made said cases should add sufficient weight to them for lynchage.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Actually I misread that a little bit, Iso said "unfun for /me/ to play."
Which uh. Did you not enjoy the way you played ZDS' game? I didn't get that impression at all.
It was fun until I ground out my megapost. Then it just...wasn't, because it was a bunch of "no ur rong" "nuh uh u r" and there was no need to put out any more effort (and frankly, no desire). After that, it was simply me manipulating the flow of the game in my favor and that's just boring.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Yeah, but it looks like that without megaposting, you're still dealing with a lot of "ur wrong"s anyways.
It doesn't have to be /huge/, if that's the issue. I think you're just missing the part where you're more open and clear and engaging with your townreads and there's a chain of events to follow that make sense.
Right, I'm dealing with "ur rong"s. And this way, I didn't even have to put in the hours-long post to make it happen!
Like, nobody is actually asking me questions. It's just "townIso does this" and "townIso doesn't do this", "no ur rong"; there's no "why don't you think this one particular aspect of your read could be wrong? The way I see it is (X) based on my experience in this game where so and so did this as town, can you maybe explain why you don't think (Eco/GJ/Cyan)'s actions here line up with a town mindset?"
I've been asking people questions. Nobody's been asking me about my reads - there's no interactivity, nothing dynamic. It's all, "You need to case them this way and then we'll listen to you, but otherwise, we're not going to engage you in a discussion about it." Obviously this is slight hyperbole - there have been a few people asking me things, and at least trying to figure me out. But it's not anywhere near the level of interactivity I'd expect from people who have any interest in actually understanding my reads, where they're coming from, or much else beyond "hurr durr Iso isn't town because he hasn't megaposted to beat it all into our skulls that he's solved the game and we're wrong and isn't being hyperaggressive."
Like...people complain about my playstyle, and then when I do something different, people complain that I'm not doing what I normally do. >_> What do you people want from me? Make up your minds.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I've tried to engage with you a bit, Iso. I just feel like fundamentally you're missing a step in your reasoning - or at least not sharing it - where you're telling the thread a story and I'm going "ok yes I see it could have happened that way," but I'm not seeing the part where you talk about the many other potential narratives there are and why yours makes more sense in a kind of "weighing the possibilities" way.
I can pull up some quotes and try to be more specific about this tomorrow.
I am not actually allowed to acknowledge this, but feel free to ask literally anybody else in this game about it.
Okay well now I don't have a super great feeling about this, but @anyone consider it asked.
Like off the top of my head, your reasoning tying Eco to GJ and Cyan has to do with how the latter two reacted / tried to change the threadflow, and it's like. Well yeah that's definitely what happened if that's exactly the team, but like...
I've tried to engage with you a bit, Iso. I just feel like fundamentally you're missing a step in your reasoning - or at least not sharing it - where you're telling the thread a story and I'm going "ok yes I see it could have happened that way," but I'm not seeing the part where you talk about the many other potential narratives there are and why yours makes more sense in a kind of "weighing the possibilities" way.
I can pull up some quotes and try to be more specific about this tomorrow.
Like off the top of my head, your reasoning tying Eco to GJ and Cyan has to do with how the latter two reacted / tried to change the threadflow, and it's like. Well yeah that's definitely what happened if that's exactly the team, but like...
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Like off the top of my head, your reasoning tying Eco to GJ and Cyan has to do with how the latter two reacted / tried to change the threadflow, and it's like. Well yeah that's definitely what happened if that's exactly the team, but like...
So...why can't that be the team?
Yeah exactly, I want you to run that math out loud. Like obviously you've decided this is the most likely world, but I feel like to get inside your head I need to see what other theories you've had, and tossed, and why you tossed them.
Like - you talked about your fancy dolled up PoE - and there's a lot going on in that process where you're looking at pairings and eliminating combinations and looking at the whole picture, and I very much have missed that in your posts so far, or at least I don't /remember/ you doing that. Like I said I'll look at your posts tomorrow and pull quotes.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Newcomb, Tammy mentioned something in Townsville about a VT claim being a trust tell for Iso. I don't know the specifics, nor did I really remember until I reread some posts in that game because of Eco.
Doesn't matter what order we lynch the scum in, here, because I'm not using their corpses to turn ??? reads into scum reads and there's no particular scum player in this game that outshines the other two. If there's enough support for a GJ lynch toDay, I will be on the wagon, as with Cyan and Eco lynches.
so, a gj wagon sprung up while you sat on cyan.
Why weren't you a driving force?
Because I don't think there's enough support to push a GJ wagon through toDay. Cyan seems like a much more palatable lynch to a lot of people.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Iso, I went back in your history to read everything you posted RE: GJ and Cyan in an effort to find whatever it was that you are supposed to find so extraordinarily damning. Here's all I've got from you, GJ, and Cyan, that seems to pertain:
Eco wagon is pretty trashy, Iso pretty much proves he can only actually read me for ***** when he rolls scum (and then waffles on it day 2). Crap, gave away Iso scum tell.
Unvote, Vote Azrael.
tom is lean town. Going past the roleplay, he seems more interactive than anyone here, and cares about interactions.
MT feels really low impact from the one game I remember he was town in (I think it was Dota's grid something)
Newcomb can also be town. I know, I know effort =/= town, but when no one else is doing anything, well....you get the idea. I just picture the state of the game, and the team being tom/Newcomb/X probably means we just get destroyed by apathy.
This is supposed to be the earth-shattering GJ post that proves he's scum? That's it?
Wait, did you post before then or am I thinking of another on-going game that we're both in?
If I'm not mixing my games up, then there was definitely an abrupt tonal shift from your intro to your first real post in a very self-conscious-distancing-yourself-from-the-Eco-wagon kind of way. If I'm just imagining that you posted before then, then I can concede that point as it relates to you (but it doesn't change the fact that it definitely applies to GJ in this situation).
Here, you're not even sure if you're thinking about the right game in relation to Cyan, where there was "definitely an abrupt tonal shift from your intro to your first real post in a very distancing-yourself-from-the-Eco-wagon kind of way." We don't even get a citation of the posts in question from you. So, I'll dig that up for us:
{quote=Cyan]
Page 1: Vaimes and Newcome both come across to me as thoroughly scummy. Their interactions reek of being same alignment, and not in a town way. The Eco wagon seems like much ado about nothing.
Page 2: Seppel explains his reasoning for initially voting Eco, which I find to be dubious at best. If it were anyone other than Seppel, I'd probably be voting here. But I've been burned on that too many times to count, so I'll wait and see what happens. Iso's summary post feels pretty townie, even if I disagree with him re: Seppel. Vaimes continues to get worse. He's maintained a scum read on newcombe for 2 pages(without voting him from what I can tell), but then hops onto the most popular wagon around instead, with no meaningful explanation for his change of heart.
Vote Vaimes
[/quote]
Quote from Cyan »
It's hard for me to understand how you took the post this way, but this is not what I meant. I meant that while your argument against Eco sucks, I don't want to just say that it makes you scum, because I've been burnt many times by thinking you were scum when you were actually just full of crap/yourself/other.
What a bunch of nonsense. How is everyone posting so much, but things like this just go unnoticed?
There's a slight tonal shift, but the content is the same - he still doesn't want to vote Seppel for this issue, because Seppel is crazy, and he's kind of exasperated by him. Nothing about this says scum tell to me.
Like...as soon as I called the Eco/GJ/Cyan team, GJ and Cyan very abruptly changed what they were doing in a very self-conscious way. You have to be ******* blind not to see that.
...
And this is your last post before you go "all-in" on GJ and Cyan. The posts are there, and I see absolutely no good rationale for you to go diving off the deep end on them the way that you have.
Quote from Iso »
If you had read my posts, you would know.
I've read your posts, GJ's, and Cyan's, all cited above, and I don't even see a basis for you to make the allegation, let alone understand or agree with it.
Like, yes, there's a shift in GJ's posts. He goes from RVS to actually playing the game. But that same shift corresponds with the game actually having real content for the first time, the first major wagon, and with GJ promising to be more active than he had been!
Like, if you want to make a case for being self-conscious about his posting activity, I could maybe see that, though I'd hardly stake him through the heart and never unvote for that alone. But reacting to YOUR pressure in a self-conscious way? No, that's bogus.
You might have a slightly better argument with Cyan. Cyan kicks into a very big, long analysis post in his third post. The thing that makes that look slightly more like a scum reaction to pressure is how far he drops off again afterwards. But again, somewhat difficult to tie the causation to some sort of scum panick in response to mild Iso pressure, rather than a normal townie response to an attack he feels is unjustified:
This is comically flawed. First, you just gloss over Newcombe and Vaimes, all in order to ultimately just try and paint me as scum. But let's really dig in here.
Here are Vaimes posts, relevant to Eco:
Very curious bandwagon vote.
He doesn't know WHY Seppel voted Eco, but said vote hop made him not only read Seppel as town, but also made him jump on the wagon.
This explanation makes absolutely no sense. Just because 'person is town' doesn't mean that you follow them onto wagons. This tells me that Vaimes is scum, and either A)realizes that his scumbuddy Eco is under fire or B)just going along for the ride on an what he sees as an easy vote.
Next post worth noting:
This is Vaimed talking to Newcombe. There is nothing town about this post. Nothing. I've changed my mind re: Newcombe also being scum, but Vaimes is scum through and through here.
Note that this is already more effort than he ever put into the Eco wagon.
Then he literally says nothing else re: Eco in ANY WAY until:
Still no actual reason why Eco is a 'scumread'. He just doesn't want to lose his position on that wagon.
Vaimes is scum, and that's that.
So now, let's get back to Iso. How is it that you missed all of this in your efforts here?
Reality is that you just wanted to paint me as scum, rather than logically assess the situation. But why? What do you have to gain here?
My best conclusion is that the scum team is Iso, Vaimes, Eco. Iso has decided that Eco is going down, and is just trying to salvage the situation by getting attention away from his other scumbuddy and onto myself/GJ instead.
So, let's take a look at the Iso/Eco interaction.
Blank vote.
No actual reason why he would be voting Eco, just willing to go along while other people put in the work. This is emphatically not how town Iso operates.
It's also worth noting that, at the time that he posted the quote that I started this post with, Iso had never directly interacted with Eco himself either. So apparently I'm scum for doing so while NOT bandwagon voting, but Iso is town for doing so while bandwagon voting. Top shelf logic there.
Nevermind that I haven't directly interacted with anyone other than Vaimes and Seppel. But apparently this is fine in all cases, except Eco.
Fully confident that the scum team is, exactly, Iso, Eco, Vaimes. This makes complete sense to me.
I'm pretty sure Eco is at L-1 and hasn't claimed, and also somehow nobody cares about this, which is absurd. I know I haven't played in a few months, but I don't think things have changed THAT much. I'm pretty sure he should have claimed by now, and people shouldn't be pushing for him to just get lynched before we hear anything on this.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
FWIW what Az said about GJ's tonal shift is what I was trying to get at above. You say he's reacting to the Eco wagon / your pressure whatever and that it's a scum reaction, Az says it could just be like, the game has actually started, he's changing tone because duh your tone changes when you post actual content.
The fundamental issue is that you're not providing a compelling argument as to why your narrative is better than Az's.
Fwiw, I think if iso is scum and put a buddy in his scumteam it's gj because he's subtly trying save him for later.
I have otherwise no scumread on gj.
I guess it could also be cyan because getting the flip right would be important for his credibility.
If it's a plan I think that could make the third scum vaimes.
That is a nice, fancy approach.
And does match better with my reads.
Fwiw, I think if iso is scum and put a buddy in his scumteam it's gj because he's subtly trying save him for later.
I have otherwise no scumread on gj.
I guess it could also be cyan because getting the flip right would be important for his credibility.
If it's a plan I think that could make the third scum vaimes.
That is a nice, fancy approach.
And does match better with my reads.
Idk.
...or there could be no scum in either, and you're scum with Iso, and you'd like us to mislynch one of those two by proposing a completely bogus false dichotomy. There's always that, too.
Part 2 will be on its way tomorrow, and Part 2 will be the impressive country where I hope the bulk of the work will come from whereas Part 1 is waiting for someone to get ready so we can get some food so will probably be less visually pleasing.
Tom, where is all of that beautiful, beautiful solving? You said you wanted to solve the game together and then didn't really hold up your end of the bargain; it's like you told me you loved me and you were excited to start a beautiful new relationship with me and then the next day in school you didn't even so much as look at me.
Or are there things that you've been doing since my entry that I've been missing?
Now you do something awesome and I'll sheep you if it aligns with my preconceived notions.
That's not playing good support; I don't think that I'll have much trouble pushing preferred lynches through in this game, and so I'd prefer someone to act as a sounding board a great deal more than I'd like an extra vote. Your Iso read - could you walk me through it in depth? What do you think of Ecophagy?
It's just feels for his motivations.
When people are looking his way he shakes things up.
Wanting townread for his veracity rather than wanting his reads listened to.
Pushing a narrative but caring too much about ordering.
Eco I think responded pretty well to pressure.
I put way too much thought into his gold star towards seppel early.
I liked it because it was chippy in a dismissive way that wouldn't come as natural if he knew seppel was right.
But it also has a chance at being appeasing seppel on some form of "his level" which is ?
He's been pretty reasonable throughout and I've liked where he's at with iso.
This already looks like the type of post that is Vaimes sticking out his neck in a way that would be odd if he were scum; I'm not sure how confident he is as scum (or if he would even interpret this as a risk or not), but I don't think that people who aren't so confident in playing scum would probably be less likely to make a play like this to start things off.
This interaction looks silly.
As something more solid, I liked Vaimes's approach to Newcomb quite a bit; I thought that the confidence that he pushed back with was pretty much explicitly town!Vaimes.
Newcomb's opening I don't have any particular reasons for liking, but it seemed like his opening was excited and aggressive enough that it lines up much more with his town meta than his scum meta, that tends to seem a lot more methodical in general unless it's changed since I've seen him as a baddie last.
Iso's opening seems like a usual Iso opening; for those of you who say that he's not "explaining his reads" or "solving the game", he certainly started off on that foot. His approach with Chris also seemed OK.
Seppel's opening also seems pretty solid.
Noting #91 as another mason interaction.
I'm not sure that I really like Ecophagy's response to his wagon.
-For one, his attack on Voxx was a bit awkward; he dings Voxx for "justifying a vote on him and yet not voting", but Voxx already had a push that he was making on thug and leaving that vote for something that Voxx disliked a little bit seems like it would be incredibly... dumb?
-I don't like his response to the Az push. The "you are either voting for pressure or following a Seppel!tell" is obviously not the case, and the "oh what egregious scumtell have I committed?" rings pretty fake - it was a page 2 wagon, you don't need an "egregious scumtell" to push a page 1 wagon and Eco is perfectly aware of that, and it was before Az's "let's YOLO-lynch Ecophagy!" post so it's not like that was his primary concern.
Tom, why did you end up disliking the Eco vote as well (and voting Az for it) and then backing off to push Eco before immediately unvoting? I'd imagine that you'd be a bit more cavalier about an early push on him unless you thought there was a decent chance of a lynch actually going through, and in that case, I'd imagine you'd fine a spidery way to say "don't blow your load just yet ladies and gentlemen". I don't understand why you decided to "save him for later" when you ended up not having any particularly good pushes at the time.
I agree with Iso that GJ's "everyone should be alarmed that this wagon is happening too quickly!" seemed wonky; would like his opinion on Tom's reaction to the wagon forming early on.
Newcomb's big post looks town as ****.
In Ecophagy's dig at Iso... I think that looking at Az/Seppel as wagon starters and not Vaimes is fine based on the nature of Vaimes's vote (didn't have the same conviction as the other two votes did) and fail to see how that particular interpretation would change regardless of if Iso is town or scum unless you think he's less perceptive as scum or some stupid crap like that.
And Tom, how did you end up with a townread on Eco?
GJ, how did you get that Tom seemed more "interactive" than any other player early game?
Why did you include Iso in your three man scumteam when his scumtell was "reading you worth a *****"?
GJ's followup posts look like annoyed town (I like his pushes on Azrael, and I like his pushback towards Vaimes).
Azrael's 145, re: Iso is accusing GJ of "soft pedaling the wagon" - I don't think that's necessarily true. I think that GJ's reaction towards the reaction was a weird type of pushback for the same reason you thought that his pushback towards you was weird; I don't get your criticism of Iso here.
Like, i'd totally lynch him. Good info, might be scum.
But he's not my first choice. or third.
I gave my analysis of the eco wagon in the translation post i think.
But I'm not worrying about az right now
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Doesn't matter what order we lynch the scum in, here, because I'm not using their corpses to turn ??? reads into scum reads and there's no particular scum player in this game that outshines the other two. If there's enough support for a GJ lynch toDay, I will be on the wagon, as with Cyan and Eco lynches.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Why weren't you a driving force?
Unvote, vote Iso
Because I don't think there's enough support to push a GJ wagon through toDay. Cyan seems like a much more palatable lynch to a lot of people.
I'm voting for scum. What are you doing to advance our win condition?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
normally you are a changer of direction.
since when does iso care about lynches being palatable?
it only matters that theyre right
also
why is gj less palatable?
Yeah, do that, because I'm looking at GJ's ISO and I'm not really seeing anything that convinces me that this guy is genuinely trying to solve the game.
Or at least he made more of an effort to.
Being uninvested in his reads isn't a scumtell, sure. But I think pushing the same exact scumreads from his second post could be, considering how often he's thrown his vote around and visibly reevaluated on reads in the towngames of his I happened to be in or read (Stargate, AA, C&B). I think if he was going to be uninterested in this game even BEFORE it started (assumption), I'd imagine he'd have an even harder time mustering any kind of enthusiasm if he discovered he had a scum PM.
---
On to Eco's wall.
B)If you think that I don't have a tendency to stick to one person stubbornly when I think they're scum, you REALLY don't know my game at all. My nickname for years was(is)? 'The Train With No Breaks'. I even had a customer avatar for it that the mafia guild made me.
Gross, I might be in the wrong here.
Okay but I don't think anyone complained about the way you played in ZDS' game? Besides the scumteam.
---
Okay but I don't think anyone complained about the way you played in ZDS' game? Besides the scumteam.
And I don't think Eco at all attacked your playstyle. He said "Iso made better cases in THIS towngame, and here he isn't." You're right, I don't know your game. I'm making a lot of guesses here.
---
Vote GJ
Okay, so me voting GJ would have done absolutely nothing except detract from the Cyan wagon at that juncture due to gameflow.
Yes, normally I'm a changer of direction.
I care about the lynch being palatable because why would I waste my vote on somebody who's not going to get lynched toDay as long as I'm voting scum, especially if they're the lynch for the Day? Of course I'm right. I'm The Goddamn Iso. Any of my 3 scumspects are wonderful lynches toDay. Whether or not everyone else sees it that way is outside of the realm of my control short of taking up the arms and leading the charge...which I have no particular interest in doing. My cases are solid, and the posts since I've made said cases should add sufficient weight to them for lynchage.
I am not actually allowed to acknowledge this, but feel free to ask literally anybody else in this game about it.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Which uh. Did you not enjoy the way you played ZDS' game? I didn't get that impression at all.
It was fun until I ground out my megapost. Then it just...wasn't, because it was a bunch of "no ur rong" "nuh uh u r" and there was no need to put out any more effort (and frankly, no desire). After that, it was simply me manipulating the flow of the game in my favor and that's just boring.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It doesn't have to be /huge/, if that's the issue. I think you're just missing the part where you're more open and clear and engaging with your townreads and there's a chain of events to follow that make sense.
Like, nobody is actually asking me questions. It's just "townIso does this" and "townIso doesn't do this", "no ur rong"; there's no "why don't you think this one particular aspect of your read could be wrong? The way I see it is (X) based on my experience in this game where so and so did this as town, can you maybe explain why you don't think (Eco/GJ/Cyan)'s actions here line up with a town mindset?"
I've been asking people questions. Nobody's been asking me about my reads - there's no interactivity, nothing dynamic. It's all, "You need to case them this way and then we'll listen to you, but otherwise, we're not going to engage you in a discussion about it." Obviously this is slight hyperbole - there have been a few people asking me things, and at least trying to figure me out. But it's not anywhere near the level of interactivity I'd expect from people who have any interest in actually understanding my reads, where they're coming from, or much else beyond "hurr durr Iso isn't town because he hasn't megaposted to beat it all into our skulls that he's solved the game and we're wrong and isn't being hyperaggressive."
Like...people complain about my playstyle, and then when I do something different, people complain that I'm not doing what I normally do. >_> What do you people want from me? Make up your minds.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I can pull up some quotes and try to be more specific about this tomorrow.
Okay well now I don't have a super great feeling about this, but @anyone consider it asked.
I would appreciate this!
So...why can't that be the team?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Yeah exactly, I want you to run that math out loud. Like obviously you've decided this is the most likely world, but I feel like to get inside your head I need to see what other theories you've had, and tossed, and why you tossed them.
Like - you talked about your fancy dolled up PoE - and there's a lot going on in that process where you're looking at pairings and eliminating combinations and looking at the whole picture, and I very much have missed that in your posts so far, or at least I don't /remember/ you doing that. Like I said I'll look at your posts tomorrow and pull quotes.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Newcomb wasn't even in that game.
---
Newcomb, Tammy mentioned something in Townsville about a VT claim being a trust tell for Iso. I don't know the specifics, nor did I really remember until I reread some posts in that game because of Eco.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Show me why I should vote.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Welp.
Feel good about nacho, newcomb, chris (and therefore AZ).
Everyone else could be scum
This has been an update
This is supposed to be the earth-shattering GJ post that proves he's scum? That's it?
This is one of your very few comments about Cyan before you add him to your scum trifecta.
Here, you're not even sure if you're thinking about the right game in relation to Cyan, where there was "definitely an abrupt tonal shift from your intro to your first real post in a very distancing-yourself-from-the-Eco-wagon kind of way." We don't even get a citation of the posts in question from you. So, I'll dig that up for us:
{quote=Cyan]
Page 1: Vaimes and Newcome both come across to me as thoroughly scummy. Their interactions reek of being same alignment, and not in a town way. The Eco wagon seems like much ado about nothing.
Page 2: Seppel explains his reasoning for initially voting Eco, which I find to be dubious at best. If it were anyone other than Seppel, I'd probably be voting here. But I've been burned on that too many times to count, so I'll wait and see what happens. Iso's summary post feels pretty townie, even if I disagree with him re: Seppel. Vaimes continues to get worse. He's maintained a scum read on newcombe for 2 pages(without voting him from what I can tell), but then hops onto the most popular wagon around instead, with no meaningful explanation for his change of heart.
Vote Vaimes
[/quote]
There's a slight tonal shift, but the content is the same - he still doesn't want to vote Seppel for this issue, because Seppel is crazy, and he's kind of exasperated by him. Nothing about this says scum tell to me.
...
And this is your last post before you go "all-in" on GJ and Cyan. The posts are there, and I see absolutely no good rationale for you to go diving off the deep end on them the way that you have.
I've read your posts, GJ's, and Cyan's, all cited above, and I don't even see a basis for you to make the allegation, let alone understand or agree with it.
Like, if you want to make a case for being self-conscious about his posting activity, I could maybe see that, though I'd hardly stake him through the heart and never unvote for that alone. But reacting to YOUR pressure in a self-conscious way? No, that's bogus.
You might have a slightly better argument with Cyan. Cyan kicks into a very big, long analysis post in his third post. The thing that makes that look slightly more like a scum reaction to pressure is how far he drops off again afterwards. But again, somewhat difficult to tie the causation to some sort of scum panick in response to mild Iso pressure, rather than a normal townie response to an attack he feels is unjustified:
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The fundamental issue is that you're not providing a compelling argument as to why your narrative is better than Az's.
I have otherwise no scumread on gj.
I guess it could also be cyan because getting the flip right would be important for his credibility.
If it's a plan I think that could make the third scum vaimes.
That is a nice, fancy approach.
And does match better with my reads.
Idk.
...or there could be no scum in either, and you're scum with Iso, and you'd like us to mislynch one of those two by proposing a completely bogus false dichotomy. There's always that, too.