The more Iso posts without cooperating at all while pretending the ball is somehow not in his court, the more my bloodlust rises.
RE: GJ: I just think he's coming across town. Call it gut or a soul read or whatever, but I just think that scum doesn't come into a game as high quality as this and just act this belligerent and blasé about everything. He has some reads and he's talking about them (not very convincingly), and he just... doesn't care what anyone might actually think about him. Maybe I'm not giving enough credit, but I just get that Townie feel off him.
Iso being stubborn and uncooperative is making you scumread him? Have you played with Iso before?
It's been discussed at length, but it's not just that Iso is being uncooperative, it's that he's doing it on purpose to try and look like Town!Iso, while actually not doing anything pro-town.
You're giving me the ultimatum of "conjure a long-winded post that will take several hours to complete or I will vote town until the end of the Day." No. I'm not playing this game that way. Explain why my reads are unconvincing to you and we'll dance but I'm not going to make this game a miserable slog for myself by putting forth the effort to hand-hold everyone else to the correct conclusion by being the singularity of effort, here. That is the easiest way to get me to check out of a game and I am not interested, because it will literally go the way of Stargate (except maybe minus the scum gambit to get me mislynched) and ZDS's Normal. I'll have solved the game and I won't want to engage with ANYONE at length after that because my effort meter will be fully expended after that. I refuse to inconvenience myself based upon your preconceived notions of how townIso should play based on how townIso HAS played, simply because those are the methods I've used before to the best results. And as Newcomb said before, that's just a blowout and no fun for anybody else.
So, I'm not breaking this entire game down just to explain my worldview. If you want me to try to convince you, you need to attack the ideas I've expressed based on the evidence in this thread - not dismiss them on meta reads that have quite frankly never been effective in reading experienced players such as myself or Eco.
Please feel free to engage me in discourse on my stated arguments. Thanks!
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm going through Cyan's ISO, and I have a hard time coming up with any sort of townread.
This line and the rest of this post are vaguely pinging.
Its like he's trying to townread cyan because he's supposed to.
And the rest of the post has just so much "but that's NAI" defense.
These aren't major things, but vaimes doesn't normally ping me.
I've joked a lot about not being able to read vaimes, and it's essentially true.
The immediate response I get to most of his posts in any game is either smile and nod or just a vague "sure"
This game he makes me tilt my head and squint too often.
I think there might have been remnants of spider in that explanation, but its all i've got for vaimes right now.
>Being uncooperative
>Point blank refusing to proactively push reads or defend self
Or do you mean discourse like what you're been doing so far? Scintillating dialogue like "these are my scum reads I will not change them" and "**** you I'm Iso".
I see what eco is saying re: iso's theatricality in this game.
It sometimes takes on a vibe like he cares more about our perception of him than about being listened to.
And the brunt of towniso in my experience is that he wants his reads respected, **** what you think of him
I see what eco is saying re: iso's theatricality in this game.
It sometimes takes on a vibe like he cares more about our perception of him than about being listened to.
And the brunt of towniso in my experience is that he wants his reads respected, **** what you think of him
Exactly. In what world does Town!Iso think he's caught the entire scum team early D1 of a freaking invitational, and then is point blank not willing to repeatedly beat the town over the head until they follow his reads and bask in his glory?
>Being uncooperative
>Point blank refusing to proactively push reads or defend self
Or do you mean discourse like what you're been doing so far? Scintillating dialogue like "these are my scum reads I will not change them" and "**** you I'm Iso".
"**** you I'm Iso" is always a valid reason for voting somebody.
(Oh my god, I'm crying from laughter at work."
But seriously, in what world is "HAY GUISE LET'S TALK ABOUT MY READS" where I am openly discussing them with the people that are asking me about them (mostly Az and Newcomb, here) is that being uncooperative? You're piggybacking off of my interpretation of Az's "NO ISO YOU MUST SINK HOURS ON END INTO WALLS OF TEXT TO SOLVE THE GAME OR YOU'RE NOT TOWN" which is an extremely dishonest line to take.
I see what eco is saying re: iso's theatricality in this game.
It sometimes takes on a vibe like he cares more about our perception of him than about being listened to.
And the brunt of towniso in my experience is that he wants his reads respected, **** what you think of him
Exactly. In what world does Town!Iso think he's caught the entire scum team early D1 of a freaking invitational, and then is point blank not willing to repeatedly beat the town over the head until they follow his reads and bask in his glory?
This one, where I'm going to be proven right in the end once people realize, "Oh wait, Iso actually knows what he's talking about!"
-
@tom: What did you learn from asking me who scumIso's buddies would be?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm going through Cyan's ISO, and I have a hard time coming up with any sort of townread.
This line and the rest of this post are vaguely pinging.
Its like he's trying to townread cyan because he's supposed to.
And the rest of the post has just so much "but that's NAI" defense.
Going through a null-leaning-scum read's ISO and seeing if I could be wrong seemed like something productive to do. If I feel like I'm "supposed" to read Cyan, it's because Sir Chris is waving a metaflag at me.
My playstyle tilts Cyan, so of course he's going to dislike the majority of what I post regardless of my alignment.
I see what eco is saying re: iso's theatricality in this game.
It sometimes takes on a vibe like he cares more about our perception of him than about being listened to.
And the brunt of towniso in my experience is that he wants his reads respected, **** what you think of him
Exactly. In what world does Town!Iso think he's caught the entire scum team early D1 of a freaking invitational, and then is point blank not willing to repeatedly beat the town over the head until they follow his reads and bask in his glory?
How would you expect town!Iso to go about convincing people to lynch his scumreads differently than he's doing here? Does he need a bigger/better case, does he need to rehash his reasoning more often, does he need to be more aggressive, does he need to be more cooperative? What are you looking for?
Going through a null-leaning-scum read's ISO and seeing if I could be wrong seemed like something productive to do. If I feel like I'm "supposed" to read Cyan, it's because Sir Chris is waving a metaflag at me.
My playstyle tilts Cyan, so of course he's going to dislike the majority of what I post regardless of my alignment.
My playstyle tilts Cyan, so of course he's going to dislike the majority of what I post regardless of my alignment.
Please provide evidence of me ever saying this. Instead of just trying to make yourself look better through baseless nonsense.
Hey Cyan - how are you feeling about this game?
Your focus seems narrow and your enthusiasm seems muted, and I'm getting the sense that this isn't super alignment indicative from you and you're kind of mixed on mafia in general right now.
Could you talk about how your read on Eco has developed from the time you initially caught up and didn't like his wagon, to where you are now?
Could you talk about your read on Gentleman Johnny, which, off the top of my head I'm not sure what it is?
And finally, could you talk about your read on me, like the mindset of how you initially read the me/Vaimes exchange as w/w, then townread me later based on something but kept the Vaimes wolfread - like, how the narrative in your head of that interaction changed, and what angles it made you consider?
I am super out of it or I'd switch my vote back to Vaimes, but the problem I have here is the lack of internal consistency about how he views Cyan in his knowledge database. It'd be perfectly fine if he just kept at the whole 'oh I don't really know Cyan that well' jazz, but instead he acts like he does know Cyan's game. So well in fact he feels comfortable attacking him based on the meta of 1 game.
Strikes me as opportunistic and someone who forgot a throw away line they told me several days ago.
hi Chris playing with someone twice does not all mean that I know them
or at least in this context, where you seem to like, actually know the guy as a real person, not just a player
I have never played with scum!Cyan, nor have I never spoken to him outside of a gamethread
thanks
Right, so why the **** are you having a meta read on Cyan's town game all of a sudden? Without contrast you should never use meta, and yet here you are speaking of your good pal Cyan who you know so well not being his usual town self.
Also you love to appeal to authority for yourself but when I let you know Cyan is fitting within his town meta that I know you just ignore me so I mean.
I feel like the bolded is along the same lines as your big post scumreading Vaimes; you're fundamentally tagging him on things that are bad play / not what you think of as attentive townplay. I feel like you're not giving enough credit to how lazy/weird/hypocritical town can be sometimes. Which, I think I've seen you talk about that somewhere before so in theory I feel like you're kind of already on the same page here?
But yeah, like. I agree it's not great to meta someone without contrast. That didn't stop me from doing exactly that in the MU wildcard game where I went and read everyone's qualifying game ISO because I wanted to get a sense of the range of everyone's townplay.
I was also in Stargate, and really as deep as my meta thoughts on Cyan go here is just like - he was super obviously town in that game, in this game he is not. So without really running that line of thought to its end - figuring out what his actual townrange is through several games, seeing what his scumgame's like - I can pretty easily see how Vaimes got to where he got. It would bother me if he was using it as the crux of a huge attack against Cyan, but again, you're not really going to get a post like that from Vaimes as either alignment.
TL;DR; meh. I have zero trouble imagining Vaimes lazily meta'ing Cyan as town, to poke at him.
I swear to god I'm spending half of my time keeping people away from Vaimes with a whip and a chair.
The only reason I keep doing it is I feel like with Voxx out of the game and me dead by D3 like, 95% of the time, I'm a little worried he'll get mislynched.
I swear to god I'm spending half of my time keeping people away from Vaimes with a whip and a chair.
The only reason I keep doing it is I feel like with Voxx out of the game and me dead by D3 like, 95% of the time, I'm a little worried he'll get mislynched.
They'll need to go through me, too. Kinda surprised people aren't more familiar with this type of playstyle/personality.
Az am I crazy or does your last reads list have GJ as hard town?
Because you're going to need to walk me through that one.
Hey, someone noticed!
After 4-5 ISOs on my uncleared slots, he was the only person who definitely moved up the charts for me. I'll dig up some of the posts I liked out of him; he had a number of posts where he was...kind of keeping it real, in a very down-to-earth, townie fashion. Many of them were in his responses to Iso's attacks.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Unmotivated and frustrated. I just don't know why anyone is taking Iso seriously, for one thing. He barned the Eco wagon and just tried to spin off a literal mountain of fabrication from there. Making statements like 'there was no counterwagon to Eco and Cyan wasn't posting at that time, so, Cyan must be scum!' This is an egregious logical fallacy. It doesn't take 3 active scum for a counterwagon to form. In the last game I was town in, IIRC, there were competing day 1 wagons that were BOTH on townies. Note that there isn't even a consideration of 'what if Eco isn't scum'. Just 'paint Eco as scum and tie two other people to him'.
Could you talk about how your read on Eco has developed from the time you initially caught up and didn't like his wagon, to where you are now?
To be clear. I still don't like the way that the Eco wagon went. Seppel voted based on nothing and a bunch of people piled on. In this case, it turns out that I think that 2 of those people(Vaimes, Iso) are scum, so I guess I DO like that they exposed themselves by just seeing 'oh ***** town Seppel and town Az are voting our scumbuddy, we'd better go along!'. But the wagon itself was still very haphazard. And honestly, I can see Iso and Vaimes both being scum without Eco being scum, also, now that the day has progressed and each of them has posted more. But it wouldn't surprise me if that is the exact 3 person scum team.
Could you talk about your read on Gentleman Johnny, which, off the top of my head I'm not sure what it is?
I don't have one, but I'm going to take a look at him today. I will say that it's really, really hard for me to see Iso and GJ both being scum, and I'm pretty sold on Iso.
And finally, could you talk about your read on me, like the mindset of how you initially read the me/Vaimes exchange as w/w, then townread me later based on something but kept the Vaimes wolfread - like, how the narrative in your head of that interaction changed, and what angles it made you consider?
Your first few posts were just bad. Pure and simple. I initially read that as 'bad scum', and saw Vaimes being flatly scummy toward you and made a snap judgment. After re-reading, I realized that your posts weren't inherently scummy, unlike Vaimes'. And you have moved steadily up the charts since then, to the point that you are now my #1 town read.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Must have been really hard to find where I literally just answered that question :/
Quote from newcombe »
Could you talk about your read on Gentleman Johnny, which, off the top of my head I'm not sure what it is?
I don't have one, but I'm going to take a look at him today. I will say that it's really, really hard for me to see Iso and GJ both being scum, and I'm pretty sold on Iso.
Could you talk about your read on Gentleman Johnny, which, off the top of my head I'm not sure what it is?
I don't have one, but I'm going to take a look at him today. I will say that it's really, really hard for me to see Iso and GJ both being scum, and I'm pretty sold on Iso.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I actually think Nacho's slot is town. Which makes trying analyze hard. Does a wolf in his shoes really go barreling in the thread for Seppel of all people with our current set-up?
Seppel, you know I take things super literally. What did you expect when you had 5 scum reads on people?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Sure, but Seppel is calling me scum for it. I'm not calling Cyan scum for his thoughts on you - I'm calling him scum for different reasons. The two aren't comparable, thanks for playing, get lynched, etc.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Sure, but Seppel is calling me scum for it. I'm not calling Cyan scum for his thoughts on you - I'm calling him scum for different reasons. The two aren't comparable, thanks for playing, get lynched, etc.
I was referring to you saying "Seppel isn't reading my posts" after you didn't even read Cyan's.
How would you expect town!Iso to go about convincing people to lynch his scumreads differently than he's doing here? Does he need a bigger/better case, does he need to rehash his reasoning more often, does he need to be more aggressive, does he need to be more cooperative? What are you looking for?
So my initial thought was "any or all of the above", but that might not exactly be fair. So I went and had a look at ZDS' Normal to see how Town Iso actually acts when he's ultra confident in his scum team read on D1. If we look at Iso's #339, #341, #346, and so on, can see Iso producing clear, well supported reads for both town players and scum players. There's a stream of conciousness flow where Iso clearly explains why he comes to the reads he does, narrowing down the PoE a little further in each post. Importantly, each scum read is independently justified alongside the reason for linking if X is scum so is Y. Iso makes multiple posts, in each one developing his arguments, refining his reads. He consistently engaged with people, addressing their concerns and trying actively to persuade them(e.g. why citric was town, why Shockwave was scum, why imab was town, etc). He even completely rehashes his Shockwave case in #400 because enough people don't agree with him.
Now let's look at this game: Iso starts his position in #79 and continues in #170. Iso's town reads here are pretty shallow (based on "vibes", and he's totally content to just stay on a bad wagon. The real difference is in the latter post: he's "doesn't have any qualms" about the Eco wagon (which is distinct from "I think Eco is scum"), GJ is Eco's buddy because interactions, Cyan is Eco's buddy because he..didn't join the Eco wagon. That's it. In ZDS' game, all the scum had independent reasons for being so, which was tied together by their interactions: here it's the reverse, Iso has scum reads developed solely by interaction, with no independent scum tells - and his base assumption of "Eco is scum" is based on...zero analysis. Also notable is the Town reads: he's happy to just set aside Newcomb and Vaimes for no reason.
Comparing the two games is like Night and Day: in ZDS' game, Iso has extensive analysis for both his town and scum reads, and each scum read was independently justified alongside scumbuddy connections. Here, Iso's town reads are incredibly loose, and his scum reads are solely based on interactions, with no analysis at all of his fundamental assumption. Now, one could argue that Iso was just working with less information in this game. He certainly made his "analysis" post earlier this game (although on the other hand this game is more dense in terms of information), but beyond the initial posts observe how Iso tries to push his world view. In ZDS', he was constantly engaging with people, addressing their counterpoints, adding more support to his reads, and even went so far as to totally rewrite his Shockwave case (his fundamental assumption there). Here, however, Iso has been content to sit on the sidelines and just loudly complain that people are ignoring him. He has not attempted to engage with or persuade anyone. He has not attempted to bolster any of his reads with additional analysis. He has attempted to convince anyone that his fundamental assumption "Eco is scum" is correct.
This stark contrast between Iso's behaviour in this and ZDS' game clearly betrays his absolute lack of sincerity in his reads. The Iso that does not have conviction in his reads is scum.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Like, there is no "hurr durr but Iso wasn't playing to his town meta!!!" excuse, here. Eco is very plainly being willfully ignorant of things and cherry-picking his arguments.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Remember when I said the part about how I wasn't going to make this game un-fun for me to play?
It's almost as if you're ignoring that to push a scum agenda. (Shocker!)
Anyone who thinks Eco is town after his last handful of posts really should probably actually read them in context.
Is he wrong about you scum hunting in ZDS's game (I didn't actually read that game and don't care to)? Rather than just pointing and loling scum. It's why I just can't take you seriously, and you have been town long enough to how to push a ******* case. Instead of just pouting and stamping your feet.
I feel like everyone is also ignoring that Cyan plainly stated he was mega hyped for Stargate and that's why he played so well. That's kind of being brushed aside.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
It's been discussed at length, but it's not just that Iso is being uncooperative, it's that he's doing it on purpose to try and look like Town!Iso, while actually not doing anything pro-town.
>being uncooperative
>offering discourse on reads
Seems legit.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
[4] Cyan - Iso, Vaimes, Nachomamma8, Seppel
[3] Gentleman Johnny - Voxxicus, Sir Chris, Newcomb
[2] Vaimes - Cyan, Gentleman Johnny
[2] Iso - Ecophagy, Azrael
[1] Voxxicus - tomsloger
Not Voting:
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Deadline is on Wednesday, December 14th.
Its like he's trying to townread cyan because he's supposed to.
And the rest of the post has just so much "but that's NAI" defense.
These aren't major things, but vaimes doesn't normally ping me.
I've joked a lot about not being able to read vaimes, and it's essentially true.
The immediate response I get to most of his posts in any game is either smile and nod or just a vague "sure"
This game he makes me tilt my head and squint too often.
I think there might have been remnants of spider in that explanation, but its all i've got for vaimes right now.
>Being uncooperative
>Point blank refusing to proactively push reads or defend self
Or do you mean discourse like what you're been doing so far? Scintillating dialogue like "these are my scum reads I will not change them" and "**** you I'm Iso".
It sometimes takes on a vibe like he cares more about our perception of him than about being listened to.
And the brunt of towniso in my experience is that he wants his reads respected, **** what you think of him
Exactly. In what world does Town!Iso think he's caught the entire scum team early D1 of a freaking invitational, and then is point blank not willing to repeatedly beat the town over the head until they follow his reads and bask in his glory?
I'm not sure I have, actually.
lol
*long sigh*
"**** you I'm Iso" is always a valid reason for voting somebody.
(Oh my god, I'm crying from laughter at work."
But seriously, in what world is "HAY GUISE LET'S TALK ABOUT MY READS" where I am openly discussing them with the people that are asking me about them (mostly Az and Newcomb, here) is that being uncooperative? You're piggybacking off of my interpretation of Az's "NO ISO YOU MUST SINK HOURS ON END INTO WALLS OF TEXT TO SOLVE THE GAME OR YOU'RE NOT TOWN" which is an extremely dishonest line to take.
This one, where I'm going to be proven right in the end once people realize, "Oh wait, Iso actually knows what he's talking about!"
-
@tom: What did you learn from asking me who scumIso's buddies would be?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
right now, nothing
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
My playstyle tilts Cyan, so of course he's going to dislike the majority of what I post regardless of my alignment. How would you expect town!Iso to go about convincing people to lynch his scumreads differently than he's doing here? Does he need a bigger/better case, does he need to rehash his reasoning more often, does he need to be more aggressive, does he need to be more cooperative? What are you looking for?
sure
ping still stands
With your spider fangs.
Please provide evidence of me ever saying this. Instead of just trying to make yourself look better through baseless nonsense.
Hey Cyan - how are you feeling about this game?
Your focus seems narrow and your enthusiasm seems muted, and I'm getting the sense that this isn't super alignment indicative from you and you're kind of mixed on mafia in general right now.
Could you talk about how your read on Eco has developed from the time you initially caught up and didn't like his wagon, to where you are now?
Could you talk about your read on Gentleman Johnny, which, off the top of my head I'm not sure what it is?
And finally, could you talk about your read on me, like the mindset of how you initially read the me/Vaimes exchange as w/w, then townread me later based on something but kept the Vaimes wolfread - like, how the narrative in your head of that interaction changed, and what angles it made you consider?
I feel like the bolded is along the same lines as your big post scumreading Vaimes; you're fundamentally tagging him on things that are bad play / not what you think of as attentive townplay. I feel like you're not giving enough credit to how lazy/weird/hypocritical town can be sometimes. Which, I think I've seen you talk about that somewhere before so in theory I feel like you're kind of already on the same page here?
But yeah, like. I agree it's not great to meta someone without contrast. That didn't stop me from doing exactly that in the MU wildcard game where I went and read everyone's qualifying game ISO because I wanted to get a sense of the range of everyone's townplay.
I was also in Stargate, and really as deep as my meta thoughts on Cyan go here is just like - he was super obviously town in that game, in this game he is not. So without really running that line of thought to its end - figuring out what his actual townrange is through several games, seeing what his scumgame's like - I can pretty easily see how Vaimes got to where he got. It would bother me if he was using it as the crux of a huge attack against Cyan, but again, you're not really going to get a post like that from Vaimes as either alignment.
TL;DR; meh. I have zero trouble imagining Vaimes lazily meta'ing Cyan as town, to poke at him.
The only reason I keep doing it is I feel like with Voxx out of the game and me dead by D3 like, 95% of the time, I'm a little worried he'll get mislynched.
Because you're going to need to walk me through that one.
They'll need to go through me, too. Kinda surprised people aren't more familiar with this type of playstyle/personality.
Hey, someone noticed!
After 4-5 ISOs on my uncleared slots, he was the only person who definitely moved up the charts for me. I'll dig up some of the posts I liked out of him; he had a number of posts where he was...kind of keeping it real, in a very down-to-earth, townie fashion. Many of them were in his responses to Iso's attacks.
zing
#779
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Unmotivated and frustrated. I just don't know why anyone is taking Iso seriously, for one thing. He barned the Eco wagon and just tried to spin off a literal mountain of fabrication from there. Making statements like 'there was no counterwagon to Eco and Cyan wasn't posting at that time, so, Cyan must be scum!' This is an egregious logical fallacy. It doesn't take 3 active scum for a counterwagon to form. In the last game I was town in, IIRC, there were competing day 1 wagons that were BOTH on townies. Note that there isn't even a consideration of 'what if Eco isn't scum'. Just 'paint Eco as scum and tie two other people to him'.
To be clear. I still don't like the way that the Eco wagon went. Seppel voted based on nothing and a bunch of people piled on. In this case, it turns out that I think that 2 of those people(Vaimes, Iso) are scum, so I guess I DO like that they exposed themselves by just seeing 'oh ***** town Seppel and town Az are voting our scumbuddy, we'd better go along!'. But the wagon itself was still very haphazard. And honestly, I can see Iso and Vaimes both being scum without Eco being scum, also, now that the day has progressed and each of them has posted more. But it wouldn't surprise me if that is the exact 3 person scum team.
I don't have one, but I'm going to take a look at him today. I will say that it's really, really hard for me to see Iso and GJ both being scum, and I'm pretty sold on Iso.
Your first few posts were just bad. Pure and simple. I initially read that as 'bad scum', and saw Vaimes being flatly scummy toward you and made a snap judgment. After re-reading, I realized that your posts weren't inherently scummy, unlike Vaimes'. And you have moved steadily up the charts since then, to the point that you are now my #1 town read.
You're right. My role PM does.
-
@Cyan: I assume you're reading Newcomb as town under Chris and Az? Or are you skeptical of the Masons?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It was six.
GJ pays more attention than this as scum.
Hard townlock.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Outstanding.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
[4] Cyan - Iso, Vaimes, Nachomamma8, Seppel
[3] Gentleman Johnny - Voxxicus, Sir Chris, Newcomb
[2] Vaimes - Cyan, Gentleman Johnny
[2] Iso - Ecophagy, Azrael
[1] Voxxicus - tomsloger
Not Voting:
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Deadline is on Wednesday, December 14th.
Voxxicus has agreed to return to the game.
I was referring to you saying "Seppel isn't reading my posts" after you didn't even read Cyan's.
Asses in glass houses shouldn't throw stones
The GJ way path to no lynching:
So my initial thought was "any or all of the above", but that might not exactly be fair. So I went and had a look at ZDS' Normal to see how Town Iso actually acts when he's ultra confident in his scum team read on D1. If we look at Iso's #339, #341, #346, and so on, can see Iso producing clear, well supported reads for both town players and scum players. There's a stream of conciousness flow where Iso clearly explains why he comes to the reads he does, narrowing down the PoE a little further in each post. Importantly, each scum read is independently justified alongside the reason for linking if X is scum so is Y. Iso makes multiple posts, in each one developing his arguments, refining his reads. He consistently engaged with people, addressing their concerns and trying actively to persuade them(e.g. why citric was town, why Shockwave was scum, why imab was town, etc). He even completely rehashes his Shockwave case in #400 because enough people don't agree with him.
Now let's look at this game: Iso starts his position in #79 and continues in #170. Iso's town reads here are pretty shallow (based on "vibes", and he's totally content to just stay on a bad wagon. The real difference is in the latter post: he's "doesn't have any qualms" about the Eco wagon (which is distinct from "I think Eco is scum"), GJ is Eco's buddy because interactions, Cyan is Eco's buddy because he..didn't join the Eco wagon. That's it. In ZDS' game, all the scum had independent reasons for being so, which was tied together by their interactions: here it's the reverse, Iso has scum reads developed solely by interaction, with no independent scum tells - and his base assumption of "Eco is scum" is based on...zero analysis. Also notable is the Town reads: he's happy to just set aside Newcomb and Vaimes for no reason.
Comparing the two games is like Night and Day: in ZDS' game, Iso has extensive analysis for both his town and scum reads, and each scum read was independently justified alongside scumbuddy connections. Here, Iso's town reads are incredibly loose, and his scum reads are solely based on interactions, with no analysis at all of his fundamental assumption. Now, one could argue that Iso was just working with less information in this game. He certainly made his "analysis" post earlier this game (although on the other hand this game is more dense in terms of information), but beyond the initial posts observe how Iso tries to push his world view. In ZDS', he was constantly engaging with people, addressing their counterpoints, adding more support to his reads, and even went so far as to totally rewrite his Shockwave case (his fundamental assumption there). Here, however, Iso has been content to sit on the sidelines and just loudly complain that people are ignoring him. He has not attempted to engage with or persuade anyone. He has not attempted to bolster any of his reads with additional analysis. He has attempted to convince anyone that his fundamental assumption "Eco is scum" is correct.
This stark contrast between Iso's behaviour in this and ZDS' game clearly betrays his absolute lack of sincerity in his reads. The Iso that does not have conviction in his reads is scum.
It's almost as if you're ignoring that to push a scum agenda. (Shocker!)
Anyone who thinks Eco is town after his last handful of posts really should probably actually read them in context.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Is he wrong about you scum hunting in ZDS's game (I didn't actually read that game and don't care to)? Rather than just pointing and loling scum. It's why I just can't take you seriously, and you have been town long enough to how to push a ******* case. Instead of just pouting and stamping your feet.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
good morning
I feel like everyone is also ignoring that Cyan plainly stated he was mega hyped for Stargate and that's why he played so well. That's kind of being brushed aside.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
I'll get to double checking Predator and reading Eco's Iso thing in a bit. I uh, nearly forgot I had a final exam today and did some cramming.
*that's a fair point
I read an old scumgame of his once and was impressed.
But literally years old.
He's capable of playing really well as scum or town.
He's... not right now.
NAI.