I'm going through Cyan's ISO, and I have a hard time coming up with any sort of townread.
The town!Cyan that I know is very loose with his vote. He talks/interacts a lot, he asks questions, he calls people out, he tries to solve the game. Meanwhile, this time around, he said in his very first post "Vaimes is scummy, Vaimes is scum, the end." That's literally it. He has maintained that /exact read/ for almost 800 posts. His points against me aren't even indicative of anything.
Vaimes continues to get worse. He's maintained a scum read on newcombe for 2 pages(without voting him from what I can tell), but then hops onto the most popular wagon around instead, with no meaningful explanation for his change of heart.
False. I voted Eco and then made fun of Newcomb for a bit, in that order.
Just because 'person is town' doesn't mean that you follow them onto wagons.
You could very much argue that this isn't a smart thing to do, but it is by no means indicative of scum. I do it all the time as town; especially if a lot of my townreads are wagoning someone I'm very meh about.
This is Vaimed talking to Newcombe. There is nothing town about this post. Nothing. I've changed my mind re: Newcombe also being scum, but Vaimes is scum through and through here.
This is Cyan's response to me telling Newcomb to vote me if he's going to scumread me. It's a vague and questionable read at best, and straight-up dishonest at worst. Especially when you consider context: I believe in voting, a lot of the players I look up to believe in voting, and Newcomb knows I cave under pressure so I expected him to actually vote me if he thought I was scum.
Still no actual reason why Eco is a 'scumread'. He just doesn't want to lose his position on that wagon.
My reason was "he isn't a townread." Bad reasoning, sure, I guess, but that doesn't make me scum.
My best conclusion is that the scum team is Iso, Vaimes, Eco.
Is that what "much ado about nothing" means these days?
I'm pretty sure Eco is at L-1 and hasn't claimed, and also somehow nobody cares about this, which is absurd. I know I haven't played in a few months, but I don't think things have changed THAT much. I'm pretty sure he should have claimed by now, and people shouldn't be pushing for him to just get lynched before we hear anything on this.
Personally, I don't think this reaction meshes well with Cyan's firm belief that Eco is on the scumteam.
There is virtually no chance that he actually thought that I would vote him, based on his interactions with you, a person I have never seen before. Especially when I hadn't even posted yet.
I'm missing the logical leap Cyan is attempting to make from this to "Vaimes is scum."
For that matter, according to your last post, you have no actual scum reads, even though you sat on Eco until he was in claim range. But yes, tell me more about how lacking my content is.
Equating not having strong scumreads to having no content. Bzzzt, misrep alert. He's still annoyed at Eco getting wagoned when he thinks Eco is scum.
At no point in any of this does Vaimes talk about GJ. Of his 4 possible scum, he talks about EVERYONE ELSE. Nothing about GJ.
Frankly, there isn't much to talk about.
That's pretty much most of his content.
tl;dr I think Cyan is both scum, and participating in this game just because he feels obligated to. I acknowledge that the second thing could be the reason he's harder to read here, but in that situation, what am I supposed to do? Shrug, leave him alone, hope he eventually feels like playing the game when I have a bunch of townreads elsewhere?
Also Newcomb, your waffling on me is getting on my nerves.
I've had only /two/ good recent scumgames. CatHunt, where font/mal/dC did LITERALLY all of the work for me; and Three Little Pigs, where no one knew what my scum meta was like so it was a lot easier to keep my head above water.
And then Seppel ruined it. Still bitter about that, even though my team did end up winning.
Anyway, even if you insist on giving me the side eye, you know 100% without a doubt that I will not be able to win endgame as scum. It's just not going to happen. I can skate by Day 1, maybe even Day 2 if I /really/ try, but after that, when interactions and role information starts pouring out, it's a LOT harder to fake scumreads on people. It's so obvious in Trigger Happy. I tried to get towncred from clearing DV, and then all the PRs started clearing each other, and I had to pretend to waffle between scarbo (my buddy), Hunt (my buddy), and the really scummy/lurky Bodyguard. We lynched him, but after that, me and my team was all that was left in the PoE.
Oh wow, I forgot about Trigger Happy even as I wrote that.
I still maintain that I have no idea how I made it as far as I did. I was SO lurky that game. You could have looked at my postcount relative to the game thread size and said "yup, Vaimes is scum."
Proph probably would have caught me if he weren't so apathetic w/r/t his Neutralness.
Also Newcomb, your waffling on me is getting on my nerves.
I've had only /two/ good recent scumgames. CatHunt, where font/mal/dC did LITERALLY all of the work for me; and Three Little Pigs, where no one knew what my scum meta was like so it was a lot easier to keep my head above water.
And then Seppel ruined it. Still bitter about that, even though my team did end up winning.
Anyway, even if you insist on giving me the side eye, you know 100% without a doubt that I will not be able to win endgame as scum. It's just not going to happen. I can skate by Day 1, maybe even Day 2 if I /really/ try, but after that, when interactions and role information starts pouring out, it's a LOT harder to fake scumreads on people. It's so obvious in Trigger Happy. I tried to get towncred from clearing DV, and then all the PRs started clearing each other, and I had to pretend to waffle between scarbo (my buddy), Hunt (my buddy), and the really scummy/lurky Bodyguard. We lynched him, but after that, me and my team was all that was left in the PoE.
I suck.
Townread me and get over it already.
You don't consider it a compliment that I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt?
Sometimes alignments shine. See Cyan in Stargate, you in that WH game, Lyrium in any game she ever played in, me in a couple past games (my most obvtown was probably the scum!mal WH), and so on.
I have a very bad migraine, but I have decided to participate.
I have zero knowledge of Cyan's scum meta, which is why I asked for it at the top of this page. Anyway, I went over why I guessed Cyan would vote for me. I still don't think it's even game-relevant, or even alignment indicative.
(Because if I thought it was, I probably would have followed it up with something like "this is +town/+scum for Cyan!"
Why on earth would I know Cyan anywhere near as well as you. Or anyone else, for that matter.
I played with the guy twice, the end.
'm going through Cyan's ISO, and I have a hard time coming up with any sort of townread.
The town!Cyan that I know is very loose with his vote. He talks/interacts a lot, he asks questions, he calls people out, he tries to solve the game. Meanwhile, this time around, he said in his very first post "Vaimes is scummy, Vaimes is scum, the end." That's literally it. He has maintained that /exact read/ for almost 800 posts. His points against me aren't even indicative of anything.
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I am super out of it or I'd switch my vote back to Vaimes, but the problem I have here is the lack of internal consistency about how he views Cyan in his knowledge database. It'd be perfectly fine if he just kept at the whole 'oh I don't really know Cyan that well' jazz, but instead he acts like he does know Cyan's game. So well in fact he feels comfortable attacking him based on the meta of 1 game.
Strikes me as opportunistic and someone who forgot a throw away line they told me several days ago.
Newcomb thoughts?
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There are several individual sentences in this Eco post I feel speak to his mindset, but one of them gives me a particularly strong feeling. Do you feel that way, what is that sentence, and what alignment do you get from it?
Doubtful I am seeing the same thing but I really liked his questioning of Az. He isn't try to shy away from anything he is being inquisitive and problem solving things that he views as a miscommunication.
ALSO he called himself a wizard instead of scum which to me means he isn't even entertaining the idea of being scum in any way, which I think is town.
I am weird though.
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hi Chris playing with someone twice does not all mean that I know them
or at least in this context, where you seem to like, actually know the guy as a real person, not just a player
I have never played with scum!Cyan, nor have I never spoken to him outside of a gamethread
thanks
Right, so why the **** are you having a meta read on Cyan's town game all of a sudden? Without contrast you should never use meta, and yet here you are speaking of your good pal Cyan who you know so well not being his usual town self.
Also you love to appeal to authority for yourself but when I let you know Cyan is fitting within his town meta that I know you just ignore me so I mean.
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I am noting I have seen Cyan be devoid of energy before as town: Predator Mafia. He played a lot like he is here.
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I am in a lot of pain, but let me try to explain the issue here.
I love meta reads. Truly and in my heart, meta reads speak to me in a way that little else does in mafia. However I find your justification for using a meta read on Cyan to be brazen and not consistent with how I feel you like to break down games. As noted, I've played with you before. This just... isn't good play. Your vote is on someone mostly based on a meta read that shouldn't be giving you much of anything.
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Nah he kind of just drifted off to sleep when he was replaced out iirc. Poor guy just didn't have it in him that game. I town cleared him though because I have a soul read on Cyan.
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For clarity, the reasons I outed Chris and Az were twofold:
1. Chris and Az were both on the verge of voting me if I didn't have a damn good reason for townreading them, which was going to be a huge distraction from actually finding scum, and not a time-waster we needed to enter the thread.
2. I wanted to demonstrate just how in-tune with the lifeblood of the game that I am despite my lackadaisical approach in the early stages of the game to lend more credence to my scum reads without necessarily having to argue a wall to back up the facts that yes, I am paying attention, and no, I'm not just "lolwagoningwithoutreason".
Iso, at the beginning of the game you suggested that the lack of Eco counterwagons made the Cyanslot more likely scum, because Cyan hadn't posted.
Would you say the same could be possible for mal? He posted, but like. Barely. Certainly not enough to push elsewhere.
Sorry if you already mentioned this somewhere, I legit just had this revelation.
I have mentioned this somewhere! In fact, I mentioned that if I'm wrong about GJ, that the last scum has to be the mal slot simply out of PoE. However, two things: I think that malslot can only be scum with Cyan, because of the opening post, and I think that the mal slot is likely to be town because of the early exchange with Voxxicus.
Alright. Post first batch of ISOs and partial thread reread, here's where I'm at.
Hard Town
8. Azrael
9. Newcomb
12. Seppel
6. Sir Chris
4. Vaimes
2. Gentleman Johnny
Lean Towards Not Lynching Today
5. Voxxicus
10. Cyan
1. Iso
We Can Lynch These Guys
3. tomsloger
7. Ecophagy
11. Nachomamma8 r. mallorean_thug
I can legit understand people buying Tom's explanation for spider-posting, I think even Tom believes it and convinced himself. But I still think he's scum based on POE and being unimpressed with his work and participation.
What changed your mind on GJ?
Also, what can I do to convince you to vote Cyan toDay?
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Neither of those reads are formed, was throwing my vote around to see if anything interesting shook out.
As a replace-in to a 700 post game you thought an RVS-type vote might engender some kind of useful reaction?
I do find voting on the slightest whims to occasionally produce useful things, yes. If the follow-up question is "what useful thing happened here" then the answer is nothing yet but that is not always the case; occasionally you dig at someone and something interesting falls out. Usually it doesn't and so you have to do things the hard way.
Vaimes's recent post looks good, and I agree that Iso seems like he's radiating his typical town radiance. I was hoping Azrael would elaborate on the parody comment, but I'm sure I'll find that in my travels.
If you were to make an analogy or set a little scene to represent what's happening in this post, what would it be?
Actually a better question setup might be:
There are several individual sentences in this Eco post I feel speak to his mindset, but one of them gives me a particularly strong feeling. Do you feel that way, what is that sentence, and what alignment do you get from it?
I like the wizard bit, it's pro-town. I'm hesitant to change Eco's status abruptly due to his having been told exactly what he was doing wrong since early in the game.
I feel like Seppel is really falling through the cracks here.
I'll climb out soon enough.
My issue with this game is such:
I want to lynch Cyan and Eco.
Iso wants to lynch Cyan and Eco.
I don't trust Iso at all. He could have handled the mason reveal a lot more subtly. The only reason to be so obvious to EVERYONE is to alert his buddies to not attack Az or Chris. Even something like "I have no reason to suspect Az or Chris, and they know why." would be puzzling enough for the rest of the players, but obvious to Az and Chris without spilling info and opportunities to see some genuine scumtell from people attacking Az or Chris.
So it's like, I have to guess which of Iso's reads is the truest scum.
Why not just vote Iso?
Unvote, vote Iso
Why not.
So... in your head, you've independently decided that Cyan and Eco are scum, and that Iso's scum. But he's scumreading your scumreads. But you came to the Iso read later; you were on Eco very early. So you've retroactively changed the narrative that Iso=scum is stronger than your other two reads, and that he's bussing one and only one of his partners.
I have to say, this doesn't strike me as a particularly town mindset. It seems kind of... circular isn't the word I'm looking for, but something similar.
Like. Your primary reason for scumreading Iso if I"m reading that post correctly is that he outed the Masons to alert his buddies. That... could have happened, I guess. But I feel like - and this is something that I've felt all game, about you, about Iso, about like half the playerbase, is that you tell yourself this story, but don't tell yourself any other possible stories, and don't think out loud about what makes one story more likely than the other. Like it is possible you are all just so much better than I am that you're doing all this work in your heads and just not bothering to talk about it and that's okay with everyone because they can kind of see it too, but if so I confess I'm just hopelessly behind.
Because, let me tell you a story. In this story, Iso is town who figured out Chris and Azrael were Masons, and wanted to look clever, so he outed them, because the utility of Masons is townclearing people, and he didn't think there was much utility in catching anyone pushing a bad case on them, because Chris and Az are strong players who scum are unlikely to seriously push.
What makes your story better than my story?
It is strictly +EV not to out the masons. Therefore Iso is scum.
Pay particular attention to how the top wagon goes from me vs. Cyan, to Cyan vs. GJ, back to just me all by my lonesome. Given that I know I'm town, I think it's a good bet that one of Cyan/GJ are scum, and I'm the mislynch scum are trying to push to shift focus away from (one of?) them. Which makes me very suspicious of Nacho, chilling at the end of my wagon without a permit.
Speaking of which, tom: to me, your metaread on mal seems to be "mal is too afraid of potential backlash to make such a baity post as scum because [past games]." I'll admit, your line "you make that as town for reactions and its great. but you make that post as scum for the story" struck me as being really, really true. But given his very limited posting, I don't want to put a ton of weight into a read like that. Nacho is here and will hopefully make his alignment clear one way or the other.
OR..you're just that scummy and it's taken awhile for everyone else to figure it out. But you know, better late than never.
It is strictly +EV not to out the masons. Therefore Iso is scum.
2015 invitational, he did the same thing on an even grander scale as town, seeking to gain credit. He needs to quit making those choices, but it seems like he can't resist sharing his role ability analysis with the class in the vain hope it will create trust on his behavior reads. It didn't and shouldn't, per the 2015 invitational, but hope springs eternal I guess. Or malevolence.
I think the best scum explanation for it would be that he wanted to confirm his read, since he was only 80% sure, and you can see him kind of trying to communicate with Chris to get him to confirm it early on in the thread. It's maybe interesting that he went after Chris for that, than me, knowing how I feel about spilling this kind of info into the thread prematurely to assist the scum in NK targeting and ability targeting. If the scum have a RBer, for instance, they can now eliminate 5 out of 12 targets, increasing their pure mathematical accuracy against our power roles by 25%. But again, I don't see any compelling reason to prefer the scum narrative.
Man, Seppel's read on Cyan is exactly what I was hitting Iso for, though. Faking getting lost? I don't think he's even posted in two days. Clearly, whatever's going on IRL coupled with two tough games at once is a bit more than he can chew atm.
Invite, vote cyan
I've seen Cyan genuinely lost in a game, and he's faking being lost.
Unclear what the context of me being 'lost' is here. I don't feel 'lost', I'm just not particularly motivated. I fully believe Vaimes is scum. If I have to get mislynched first to give validity to that, then, that's how it goes sometimes.
Unrelatedly, it amazes me that Iso can do something like out 2 masons, ESPECIALLY when it's Az and SC, and it's just 'no big deal'. Iso is flatly scum with Vaimes. I already explained why this makes complete sense.
I actually think Nacho's slot is town. Which makes trying analyze hard. Does a wolf in his shoes really go barreling in the thread for Seppel of all people with our current set-up?
Seppel, you know I take things super literally. What did you expect when you had 5 scum reads on people?
It helps Iso's cause that I don't tend to care much about masons being hidden (I am a dummy like that)
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Not sure how much that plays into a game like this. With less experience players, you stay silent, and then yell CHECKMATE, *****ES when the wolves try to poe.
I also broke character. This is the mask of being calm, cool, and collected. If my persona was a mask, it would be this one. Except maybe blue instead of white.
Oh wow, I forgot about Trigger Happy even as I wrote that.
I still maintain that I have no idea how I made it as far as I did. I was SO lurky that game. You could have looked at my postcount relative to the game thread size and said "yup, Vaimes is scum."
Proph probably would have caught me if he weren't so apathetic w/r/t his Neutralness.
(okay, I'll stop chainposting)
There were people far lurkier than you. Including Shock, but there were some town PRs.
I keep telling people to just shoot lurkers but *shrugs*.
Invite, vote cyan
I've seen Cyan genuinely lost in a game, and he's faking being lost.
Unclear what the context of me being 'lost' is here. I don't feel 'lost', I'm just not particularly motivated. I fully believe Vaimes is scum. If I have to get mislynched first to give validity to that, then, that's how it goes sometimes.
Unrelatedly, it amazes me that Iso can do something like out 2 masons, ESPECIALLY when it's Az and SC, and it's just 'no big deal'. Iso is flatly scum with Vaimes. I already explained why this makes complete sense.
No one is arguing that the mason outing is "no big deal", only that the explanation for it isn't limited to the ones that have him as scum.
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The more Iso posts without cooperating at all while pretending the ball is somehow not in his court, the more my bloodlust rises.
RE: GJ: I just think he's coming across town. Call it gut or a soul read or whatever, but I just think that scum doesn't come into a game as high quality as this and just act this belligerent and blasé about everything. He has some reads and he's talking about them (not very convincingly), and he just... doesn't care what anyone might actually think about him. Maybe I'm not giving enough credit, but I just get that Townie feel off him.
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You're giving me the ultimatum of "conjure a long-winded post that will take several hours to complete or I will vote town until the end of the Day." No. I'm not playing this game that way. Explain why my reads are unconvincing to you and we'll dance but I'm not going to make this game a miserable slog for myself by putting forth the effort to hand-hold everyone else to the correct conclusion by being the singularity of effort, here. That is the easiest way to get me to check out of a game and I am not interested, because it will literally go the way of Stargate (except maybe minus the scum gambit to get me mislynched) and ZDS's Normal. I'll have solved the game and I won't want to engage with ANYONE at length after that because my effort meter will be fully expended after that. I refuse to inconvenience myself based upon your preconceived notions of how townIso should play based on how townIso HAS played, simply because those are the methods I've used before to the best results. And as Newcomb said before, that's just a blowout and no fun for anybody else.
So, I'm not breaking this entire game down just to explain my worldview. If you want me to try to convince you, you need to attack the ideas I've expressed based on the evidence in this thread - not dismiss them on meta reads that have quite frankly never been effective in reading experienced players such as myself or Eco.
Please feel free to engage me in discourse on my stated arguments. Thanks!
You're giving me the ultimatum of "conjure a long-winded post that will take several hours to complete or I will vote town until the end of the Day." No. I'm not playing this game that way. Explain why my reads are unconvincing to you and we'll dance but I'm not going to make this game a miserable slog for myself by putting forth the effort to hand-hold everyone else to the correct conclusion by being the singularity of effort, here. That is the easiest way to get me to check out of a game and I am not interested, because it will literally go the way of Stargate (except maybe minus the scum gambit to get me mislynched) and ZDS's Normal. I'll have solved the game and I won't want to engage with ANYONE at length after that because my effort meter will be fully expended after that. I refuse to inconvenience myself based upon your preconceived notions of how townIso should play based on how townIso HAS played, simply because those are the methods I've used before to the best results. And as Newcomb said before, that's just a blowout and no fun for anybody else.
So, I'm not breaking this entire game down just to explain my worldview. If you want me to try to convince you, you need to attack the ideas I've expressed based on the evidence in this thread - not dismiss them on meta reads that have quite frankly never been effective in reading experienced players such as myself or Eco.
Please feel free to engage me in discourse on my stated arguments. Thanks!
The more Iso posts without cooperating at all while pretending the ball is somehow not in his court, the more my bloodlust rises.
RE: GJ: I just think he's coming across town. Call it gut or a soul read or whatever, but I just think that scum doesn't come into a game as high quality as this and just act this belligerent and blasé about everything. He has some reads and he's talking about them (not very convincingly), and he just... doesn't care what anyone might actually think about him. Maybe I'm not giving enough credit, but I just get that Townie feel off him.
Iso being stubborn and uncooperative is making you scumread him? Have you played with Iso before?
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Talk a little bit more about what was going through your head in this post, Vaimes.
I had a similar feeling tbh, though it wasn't that... erm, hyperbolic.
I really hope I'm right on Vaimes and the doubt just has to do with the quality of the playerbase.
Like real talk, I think Vaimes would have folded like a cheap card table by now if he were scum.
Maybe I'm not giving him enough credit; he did say he plays much worse on DLP for whatever reason.
The town!Cyan that I know is very loose with his vote. He talks/interacts a lot, he asks questions, he calls people out, he tries to solve the game. Meanwhile, this time around, he said in his very first post "Vaimes is scummy, Vaimes is scum, the end." That's literally it. He has maintained that /exact read/ for almost 800 posts. His points against me aren't even indicative of anything.
Vaimes continues to get worse. He's maintained a scum read on newcombe for 2 pages(without voting him from what I can tell), but then hops onto the most popular wagon around instead, with no meaningful explanation for his change of heart.
False. I voted Eco and then made fun of Newcomb for a bit, in that order.
Just because 'person is town' doesn't mean that you follow them onto wagons.
You could very much argue that this isn't a smart thing to do, but it is by no means indicative of scum. I do it all the time as town; especially if a lot of my townreads are wagoning someone I'm very meh about.
This is Vaimed talking to Newcombe. There is nothing town about this post. Nothing. I've changed my mind re: Newcombe also being scum, but Vaimes is scum through and through here.
This is Cyan's response to me telling Newcomb to vote me if he's going to scumread me. It's a vague and questionable read at best, and straight-up dishonest at worst. Especially when you consider context: I believe in voting, a lot of the players I look up to believe in voting, and Newcomb knows I cave under pressure so I expected him to actually vote me if he thought I was scum.
Still no actual reason why Eco is a 'scumread'. He just doesn't want to lose his position on that wagon.
My reason was "he isn't a townread." Bad reasoning, sure, I guess, but that doesn't make me scum.
My best conclusion is that the scum team is Iso, Vaimes, Eco.
Is that what "much ado about nothing" means these days?
I'm pretty sure Eco is at L-1 and hasn't claimed, and also somehow nobody cares about this, which is absurd. I know I haven't played in a few months, but I don't think things have changed THAT much. I'm pretty sure he should have claimed by now, and people shouldn't be pushing for him to just get lynched before we hear anything on this.
Personally, I don't think this reaction meshes well with Cyan's firm belief that Eco is on the scumteam.
There is virtually no chance that he actually thought that I would vote him, based on his interactions with you, a person I have never seen before. Especially when I hadn't even posted yet.
I'm missing the logical leap Cyan is attempting to make from this to "Vaimes is scum."
For that matter, according to your last post, you have no actual scum reads, even though you sat on Eco until he was in claim range. But yes, tell me more about how lacking my content is.
Equating not having strong scumreads to having no content. Bzzzt, misrep alert. He's still annoyed at Eco getting wagoned when he thinks Eco is scum.
At no point in any of this does Vaimes talk about GJ. Of his 4 possible scum, he talks about EVERYONE ELSE. Nothing about GJ.
Frankly, there isn't much to talk about.
That's pretty much most of his content.
tl;dr I think Cyan is both scum, and participating in this game just because he feels obligated to. I acknowledge that the second thing could be the reason he's harder to read here, but in that situation, what am I supposed to do? Shrug, leave him alone, hope he eventually feels like playing the game when I have a bunch of townreads elsewhere?
blah blah Neutral, whatever, his scumreads were real. And right. He had to die to get us on the right track.
And even after he died, it took town a while to lynch the people he pointed out.
So I want to give him the benefit of the doubt.
To be clearer.
I've had only /two/ good recent scumgames. CatHunt, where font/mal/dC did LITERALLY all of the work for me; and Three Little Pigs, where no one knew what my scum meta was like so it was a lot easier to keep my head above water.
And then Seppel ruined it. Still bitter about that, even though my team did end up winning.
Anyway, even if you insist on giving me the side eye, you know 100% without a doubt that I will not be able to win endgame as scum. It's just not going to happen. I can skate by Day 1, maybe even Day 2 if I /really/ try, but after that, when interactions and role information starts pouring out, it's a LOT harder to fake scumreads on people. It's so obvious in Trigger Happy. I tried to get towncred from clearing DV, and then all the PRs started clearing each other, and I had to pretend to waffle between scarbo (my buddy), Hunt (my buddy), and the really scummy/lurky Bodyguard. We lynched him, but after that, me and my team was all that was left in the PoE.
I suck.
Townread me and get over it already.
I still maintain that I have no idea how I made it as far as I did. I was SO lurky that game. You could have looked at my postcount relative to the game thread size and said "yup, Vaimes is scum."
Proph probably would have caught me if he weren't so apathetic w/r/t his Neutralness.
(okay, I'll stop chainposting)
You don't consider it a compliment that I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt?
"He's paranoid of me, that must mean I'm getting better!"
But no, I'm mostly annoyed.
I want you to be paranoid of me, but I personally don't think I've reached the level to earn it yet.
sentiment is still mostly the same
Do you think I'm getting worse?
Because I think this is kind of the hardest you've ever townread me ever.
Sometimes alignments shine. See Cyan in Stargate, you in that WH game, Lyrium in any game she ever played in, me in a couple past games (my most obvtown was probably the scum!mal WH), and so on.
But that's a stupid reason to suspect someone.
"Oh no, they're TOO town!"
We can save that for if you're still alive in LyLo or some wacky alternative.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Strikes me as opportunistic and someone who forgot a throw away line they told me several days ago.
Newcomb thoughts?
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
or at least in this context, where you seem to like, actually know the guy as a real person, not just a player
I have never played with scum!Cyan, nor have I never spoken to him outside of a gamethread
thanks
Doubtful I am seeing the same thing but I really liked his questioning of Az. He isn't try to shy away from anything he is being inquisitive and problem solving things that he views as a miscommunication.
ALSO he called himself a wizard instead of scum which to me means he isn't even entertaining the idea of being scum in any way, which I think is town.
I am weird though.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Right, so why the **** are you having a meta read on Cyan's town game all of a sudden? Without contrast you should never use meta, and yet here you are speaking of your good pal Cyan who you know so well not being his usual town self.
Also you love to appeal to authority for yourself but when I let you know Cyan is fitting within his town meta that I know you just ignore me so I mean.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Less so in AA, but even then, he had a damn pulse.
That is the only information I have. What am I supposed to do, ignore what I've directly experienced?
If you want to PoE lynch him toMorrow when he fails to pick up the pace, that's fine by me, but for right now I'm going with what I believe in. Sorry.
>gets ***** on for disagreeing with someone else's metaread
OH WELL
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
I love meta reads. Truly and in my heart, meta reads speak to me in a way that little else does in mafia. However I find your justification for using a meta read on Cyan to be brazen and not consistent with how I feel you like to break down games. As noted, I've played with you before. This just... isn't good play. Your vote is on someone mostly based on a meta read that shouldn't be giving you much of anything.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Did he ever seem to wake up in Predator Mafia?
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
I'll sleep on it.
1. Chris and Az were both on the verge of voting me if I didn't have a damn good reason for townreading them, which was going to be a huge distraction from actually finding scum, and not a time-waster we needed to enter the thread.
2. I wanted to demonstrate just how in-tune with the lifeblood of the game that I am despite my lackadaisical approach in the early stages of the game to lend more credence to my scum reads without necessarily having to argue a wall to back up the facts that yes, I am paying attention, and no, I'm not just "lolwagoningwithoutreason".
I have mentioned this somewhere! In fact, I mentioned that if I'm wrong about GJ, that the last scum has to be the mal slot simply out of PoE. However, two things: I think that malslot can only be scum with Cyan, because of the opening post, and I think that the mal slot is likely to be town because of the early exchange with Voxxicus.
What changed your mind on GJ?
Also, what can I do to convince you to vote Cyan toDay?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I do find voting on the slightest whims to occasionally produce useful things, yes. If the follow-up question is "what useful thing happened here" then the answer is nothing yet but that is not always the case; occasionally you dig at someone and something interesting falls out. Usually it doesn't and so you have to do things the hard way.
Vote: Cyan
I like the wizard bit, it's pro-town. I'm hesitant to change Eco's status abruptly due to his having been told exactly what he was doing wrong since early in the game.
I've seen Cyan genuinely lost in a game, and he's faking being lost.
I know! Right? That post of GJ's makes NO sense.
It is strictly +EV not to out the masons. Therefore Iso is scum.
Nah, he put up a good fight in that one where he clearly didn't believe his own reads, the one where Tammy as godfather got copped.
OR..you're just that scummy and it's taken awhile for everyone else to figure it out. But you know, better late than never.
2015 invitational, he did the same thing on an even grander scale as town, seeking to gain credit. He needs to quit making those choices, but it seems like he can't resist sharing his role ability analysis with the class in the vain hope it will create trust on his behavior reads. It didn't and shouldn't, per the 2015 invitational, but hope springs eternal I guess. Or malevolence.
I think the best scum explanation for it would be that he wanted to confirm his read, since he was only 80% sure, and you can see him kind of trying to communicate with Chris to get him to confirm it early on in the thread. It's maybe interesting that he went after Chris for that, than me, knowing how I feel about spilling this kind of info into the thread prematurely to assist the scum in NK targeting and ability targeting. If the scum have a RBer, for instance, they can now eliminate 5 out of 12 targets, increasing their pure mathematical accuracy against our power roles by 25%. But again, I don't see any compelling reason to prefer the scum narrative.
Unclear what the context of me being 'lost' is here. I don't feel 'lost', I'm just not particularly motivated. I fully believe Vaimes is scum. If I have to get mislynched first to give validity to that, then, that's how it goes sometimes.
Unrelatedly, it amazes me that Iso can do something like out 2 masons, ESPECIALLY when it's Az and SC, and it's just 'no big deal'. Iso is flatly scum with Vaimes. I already explained why this makes complete sense.
Seppel, you know I take things super literally. What did you expect when you had 5 scum reads on people?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
I also broke character. This is the mask of being calm, cool, and collected. If my persona was a mask, it would be this one. Except maybe blue instead of white.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
There were people far lurkier than you. Including Shock, but there were some town PRs.
I keep telling people to just shoot lurkers but *shrugs*.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
No one is arguing that the mason outing is "no big deal", only that the explanation for it isn't limited to the ones that have him as scum.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
RE: GJ: I just think he's coming across town. Call it gut or a soul read or whatever, but I just think that scum doesn't come into a game as high quality as this and just act this belligerent and blasé about everything. He has some reads and he's talking about them (not very convincingly), and he just... doesn't care what anyone might actually think about him. Maybe I'm not giving enough credit, but I just get that Townie feel off him.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
[quote from="Iso »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/763976-2016-mtgs-mafia-invitational-hearthstone-mafia-day?comment=701"]
You're giving me the ultimatum of "conjure a long-winded post that will take several hours to complete or I will vote town until the end of the Day." No. I'm not playing this game that way. Explain why my reads are unconvincing to you and we'll dance but I'm not going to make this game a miserable slog for myself by putting forth the effort to hand-hold everyone else to the correct conclusion by being the singularity of effort, here. That is the easiest way to get me to check out of a game and I am not interested, because it will literally go the way of Stargate (except maybe minus the scum gambit to get me mislynched) and ZDS's Normal. I'll have solved the game and I won't want to engage with ANYONE at length after that because my effort meter will be fully expended after that. I refuse to inconvenience myself based upon your preconceived notions of how townIso should play based on how townIso HAS played, simply because those are the methods I've used before to the best results. And as Newcomb said before, that's just a blowout and no fun for anybody else.
So, I'm not breaking this entire game down just to explain my worldview. If you want me to try to convince you, you need to attack the ideas I've expressed based on the evidence in this thread - not dismiss them on meta reads that have quite frankly never been effective in reading experienced players such as myself or Eco.
Please feel free to engage me in discourse on my stated arguments. Thanks!
Iso being stubborn and uncooperative is making you scumread him? Have you played with Iso before?