@Chris - I'm reading it, it just wasn't memorable. *shrugs* My head is chock full of things, and only a small portion stick around in there, these days.
You're giving me the ultimatum of "conjure a long-winded post that will take several hours to complete or I will vote town until the end of the Day." No. I'm not playing this game that way. Explain why my reads are unconvincing to you and we'll dance but I'm not going to make this game a miserable slog for myself by putting forth the effort to hand-hold everyone else to the correct conclusion by being the singularity of effort, here. That is the easiest way to get me to check out of a game and I am not interested, because it will literally go the way of Stargate (except maybe minus the scum gambit to get me mislynched) and ZDS's Normal. I'll have solved the game and I won't want to engage with ANYONE at length after that because my effort meter will be fully expended after that. I refuse to inconvenience myself based upon your preconceived notions of how townIso should play based on how townIso HAS played, simply because those are the methods I've used before to the best results. And as Newcomb said before, that's just a blowout and no fun for anybody else.
So, I'm not breaking this entire game down just to explain my worldview. If you want me to try to convince you, you need to attack the ideas I've expressed based on the evidence in this thread - not dismiss them on meta reads that have quite frankly never been effective in reading experienced players such as myself or Eco.
Please feel free to engage me in discourse on my stated arguments. Thanks!
no he is not but you would know that if you were reading the game, yourself
I've already explained why I'm not convinced. I simply don't see where GJ reacted the way you described. I don't see the factual basis for your argument.
Your move. Long or short as you like it, or ignore it altogether, if you please. No ultimatum.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Your basis for Cyan was the same as GJ, reacting to your accusing him as scum, which I haven't seen in my read on him. Your Eco read, unless it's changed, we agree upon.
No...my basis for the Cyan read was largely upon the way the Eco wagon moved. And if you think Eco is scum, I don't see how you justify a townCyan, there.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I do not push scumreads hard. I get townreads and end up voting off my non-town reads whenever they happen to get wagoned. That is my playstyle 90% of the time; occasionally I'll have a game where I get a really strong scumread on someone, but it doesn't happen often. It's not something I can force, nor do I especially care to. It wears me out, makes me enjoy the game less, and then I end up lurking and that doesn't help anyone. I did not get voted into this game for being super analytical or bloodthirsty, so if that's what's expected of me, then I'd just rather not play. I know the rest of you love your walls and your pushes and your secret reasons for everything, but do not project that onto me.
<Separately, Seppel, you in particular can **** off.> I'm not here to entertain you. This is how I play mafia, every game, all the time, and if you're going to whine about it, then I do not care.
All I remember you doing is starting the Eco wagon and throwing your vote around. You don't see me *****ing about it.
---
Anyway.
I'm town, and at this rate, I'm going to easily prove it before the end of the Day with the amount of antialignments I'm probably creating.
Sir Chris and Az are apparently Masons, so that's easy.
I think Newcomb, Voxxslot, and tom are town. I'm trying not to let that whole spider drama affect my reads there.
Iso is a "I want to let him prove himself" townlean. And you can take that read to the bank, Seppel.
Seppel is eh, probably whiny town.
Leaving four names!
Gentleman Johnny
Ecophagy
Cyan
Nachomamma8 r. mallorean_thug
At the absolute least, I feel decent about at least one of these players being scum. I only say that because I've had some *****ty luck in townreading entire scumteams before.
I'd say of the four, I feel the strongest about Cyan. Still don't know what he thinks about anything, except that Eco and I are scum together.
Listen.
The spider thing was about fun.
That is why I did it, regardless of alignment (yes, I know how much people hate when I say that)
I decided it the second I got a spider in my role pm.
I'm not gonna check my pm for the name of it, but if there's hearthstone players its a 1/2 that makes two 1/1s when it dies.
If you really want to read me based on that decision, I've only gimmicked up once as scum and it wasn't as fun.
But I don't want you to read me that way and it's all wifom anyway.
Yes of course there's strategy involved. You don't act like I do in mafia games and not learn a few insights on how scum react to it. But that's just how I play it, not why I do it
Yes I do play to win, but no its not my main goal. It's the same way I play magic actually.
But I do need to consider that it's a team game.
I don't want to go all mafia theory.
I barely want to talk about this at all.
I was a spider. Now I'm not.
I explained what I was trying to say as a spider, though I maintain you're all clever enough to understand it in spider form if you really wanted to.
Now I'm just a boring old mafia player with a really sweet method of making reads lists.
Let's move on.
Finally, trying to stop voxx from replacing out was entirely oog.
I hope he comes back.
And maybe we can lynch him.
He fits on a hell of a lot of teams
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Also, my read on you is about 15% meta, and my read on Eco is 0% meta. Just to set the record straight.
Mind explaining it to me before I'm forced to catch up?
The things that I remember seeing from you about Iso are "he's being a parody of his usual self" type of flavors.
Iso, to answer your question I seriously doubt Eco got mad at his scum-buddy and publicly berated him for not defending him harder.
So why aren't you looking at making a counterwagon or analysing this one? Is it because you're happy to just hang back and watch me get lynched? Why are you even voting Seppel anyways?
I can actually see a town Eco in some of these posts, such as this one.
Mind explaining it to me before I'm forced to catch up?
The things that I remember seeing from you about Iso are "he's being a parody of his usual self" type of flavors.
I hate the reasoning he's given for his wagon choices, b/c I just don't see what he's describing, and they also seemed like wagons of opportunity. Even the wagons I've sort of agreed with him on, I dislike the way he's pushing them, and his emotional profile in the early part of the thread seemed way off in actuality from what he was projecting it to be. And ever since then, he's been in an analysis stand-still, because he supposedly has the game solved. Don't much care for his mason reveal either, but honestly, that's null for him. Quick summary, feels like he's just going throw the motions without a lot of heart in it, except for occasionally when he feels that heart would be expected of him.
id like to lynch in voxx/iso/cyan ATM
but i feel more strongly about my townreads of newcomb, chris, and your slot
and would probably just sheep any 2 of you if you seemed excited about a lynch
i sort of hate that townreading chris means i have to townread azrael too, but I GUESS
Mind explaining it to me before I'm forced to catch up?
The things that I remember seeing from you about Iso are "he's being a parody of his usual self" type of flavors.
I hate the reasoning he's given for his wagon choices, b/c I just don't see what he's describing, and they also seemed like wagons of opportunity. Even the wagons I've sort of agreed with him on, I dislike the way he's pushing them, and his emotional profile in the early part of the thread seemed way off in actuality from what he was projecting it to be. And ever since then, he's been in an analysis stand-still, because he supposedly has the game solved. Don't much care for his mason reveal either, but honestly, that's null for him. Quick summary, feels like he's just going throw the motions without a lot of heart in it, except for occasionally when he feels that heart would be expected of him.
Iso, to answer your question I seriously doubt Eco got mad at his scum-buddy and publicly berated him for not defending him harder.
So why aren't you looking at making a counterwagon or analysing this one? Is it because you're happy to just hang back and watch me get lynched? Why are you even voting Seppel anyways?
I can actually see a town Eco in some of these posts, such as this one.
I see it coming from scumEco as a sort of frustration with his scumbuddy for not backing him up or pushing elsewhere, and then a tacked-on bit of distancing at the end.
id like to lynch in voxx/iso/cyan ATM
but i feel more strongly about my townreads of newcomb, chris, and your slot
and would probably just sheep any 2 of you if you seemed excited about a lynch
i sort of hate that townreading chris means i have to townread azrael too, but I GUESS
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
[4] Vaimes - Cyan, Gentleman Johnny, Sir Chris, Seppel
[4] Cyan - mallorean_thug, tomsloger, Vaimes, Iso
[1] Voxxicus - Ecophagy
[1] Iso - Azrael
[1] Gentleman Johnny - Newcomb
Not Voting: Voxxicus
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
---
Vote Count 1.08
[3] Gentleman Johnny - Newcomb, Voxxicus, Sir Chris
[3] Cyan - mallorean_thug, Iso, Seppel
[2] Vaimes - Cyan, Gentleman Johnny
[2] Voxxicus - Ecophagy, tomsloger
[1] tomsloger - Azrael
Not Voting: Vaimes
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
---
Vote Count 1.09
[4] Vaimes - Cyan, Gentleman Johnny, Seppel, Nachomamma8
[2] Iso - Ecophagy, Azrael
[2] Gentleman Johnny - Voxxicus, Sir Chris
[1] Cyan - Iso
[1] Voxxicus - tomsloger
[1] tomsloger - Newcomb
Not Voting: Vaimes
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Hm.
I think the two most important worlds right now are the ones where Eco is town, or Eco is scum.
If Eco is scum, then it makes it that much more likely that his entire wagon is town (and, barring the mafia fakeclaiming Masons and crossing their fingers, I know that 3/5 of it are 100% town). But if he's town, then uh. There's ~probably one between Seppel and Iso, which should definitely be revisited at some point. Also possible that mafia avoided the wagon entirely, which I guess would make sense in town!Eco worlds. Let town mislynch on their own, and then spend the rest of the game trying to find the hidden mafia on the wagon.
Eco's wagon stalling points to either 1) scum being happy and not wanting to rock the boat, or 2) scum being unhappy but also not knowing how to rock the boat without getting called out. Given everyone's experience level here, and the fact that no other wagon got more than two votes for the first half of the game, I'm more inclined to believe in #1. Which leads me to believe that the mafia were probably voting off-wagon.
Looking at the second votecount:
Quote from Proph »
[5] Ecophagy - Seppel, Vaimes, Azrael, Sir Chris, Iso
[1] Seppel - Gentleman Johnny
[1] Newcomb - tomsloger
[1] Cyan - mallorean_thug
[1] mallorean_thug - Voxxicus
[1] Voxxicus - Ecophagy
Not Voting: Newcomb, Cyan
I refuse to believe there's more than one mafia voting for Eco here. Which means there's at least two of them voting elsewhere.
Two mafia in [GJ/mal/Eco/Cyan]. Maybe even three, barring misreads.
I barely have the arrogance to think I have even one mafia pegged, heh.
And now look at these three votals:
Quote from Proph »
Vote Count 1.07
[4] Vaimes - Cyan, Gentleman Johnny, Sir Chris, Seppel
[4] Cyan - mallorean_thug, tomsloger, Vaimes, Iso
[1] Voxxicus - Ecophagy
[1] Iso - Azrael
[1] Gentleman Johnny - Newcomb
Not Voting: Voxxicus
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
---
Vote Count 1.08
[3] Gentleman Johnny - Newcomb, Voxxicus, Sir Chris
[3] Cyan - mallorean_thug, Iso, Seppel
[2] Vaimes - Cyan, Gentleman Johnny
[2] Voxxicus - Ecophagy, tomsloger
[1] tomsloger - Azrael
Not Voting: Vaimes
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
---
Vote Count 1.09
[4] Vaimes - Cyan, Gentleman Johnny, Seppel, Nachomamma8
[2] Iso - Ecophagy, Azrael
[2] Gentleman Johnny - Voxxicus, Sir Chris
[1] Cyan - Iso
[1] Voxxicus - tomsloger
[1] tomsloger - Newcomb
Not Voting: Vaimes
We have competing wagons now!
Pay particular attention to how the top wagon goes from me vs. Cyan, to Cyan vs. GJ, back to just me all by my lonesome. Given that I know I'm town, I think it's a good bet that one of Cyan/GJ are scum, and I'm the mislynch scum are trying to push to shift focus away from (one of?) them. Which makes me very suspicious of Nacho, chilling at the end of my wagon without a permit.
Speaking of which, tom: to me, your metaread on mal seems to be "mal is too afraid of potential backlash to make such a baity post as scum because [past games]." I'll admit, your line "you make that as town for reactions and its great. but you make that post as scum for the story" struck me as being really, really true. But given his very limited posting, I don't want to put a ton of weight into a read like that. Nacho is here and will hopefully make his alignment clear one way or the other.
Given that Eco's alignment would crack this game open just wide enough to really get a feel for things, I think it's impertinent he gets vigged/Cop'd/whatever other role there is, maybe the Masonhood has an open slot.
Unless Eco can clear himself via scumhunting, or just being tonally town enough for me to be sure. I'm not picky about townfirms.
Alright. Post first batch of ISOs and partial thread reread, here's where I'm at.
Hard Town
8. Azrael
9. Newcomb
12. Seppel
6. Sir Chris
4. Vaimes
2. Gentleman Johnny
Lean Towards Not Lynching Today
5. Voxxicus
10. Cyan
1. Iso
We Can Lynch These Guys
3. tomsloger
7. Ecophagy
11. Nachomamma8 r. mallorean_thug
I can legit understand people buying Tom's explanation for spider-posting, I think even Tom believes it and convinced himself. But I still think he's scum based on POE and being unimpressed with his work and participation.
I am sticking to that thug townread.
I can maybe buy him really going outside himself to make that post, but I cannot see his early chippiness along with it
I wish he was here to see me finally read him right
Okay, I'm back. The 24 hours off with a terrific idea; when I went to bed last night I was planning to unvote, cash in my entire supply of towncred to strongarm 6 votes on tom, and let him hear the branch creak under his feet while we had a little Come to Jesus talk and I held the hammer over his head like the Sword of Damocles.
I'm pretty over it though. tom, I'm done talking about this until postgame except to say that it feels like you killed my puppy. Despite how much Voxx and I have talked mafia over the last year and a half, despite the fact that he's my mentor and I respect the hell out of him, we've only ever played once together and it was Stargate and I was A) scum, and B) he had to replace mid-D1 due to RL stuff. So to say that I'm pissed off about that is kind of an understatement.
I don't agree at all that we could have figured out what you meant if we'd tried. You are experienced enough to know that content is barely the point; it's mindset. I look at what you originally wrote about why you townread Mal, and then when you dropped the gimmick to explain it, and there is nuance in there that's objectively impossible to just guess from what you originally wrote. "Denying people insight into your thoughts" cannot be a playstyle. It just can't. If everyone did what you were doing, the game would be a nightmare hell-scape of crossed wires and reads with zero depth and the spiciness of overcooked pasta mush. By all means, have fun, post gifs, *****post, roleplay a spider. But only after you've eaten your vegetables and posted clear, coherent, relevant thoughts. Anyone who doesn't do that should just be lynched, full stop.
/rant over, I appreciate you dropping the shtick, but it's going to take me a while to work the chip off my shoulder from Voxx replacing out, so you'll forgive me if I kind of steer clear of you for a while.
And Azrael, don't play like an old person. We're in this business to lynch scum; we're not here to make lynches that make us feel good or that seem like they're righteous, we are here to lynch scum. Right now, you're using language that says that you're okay if Tom flips town which has the same problem that you're trying to sell to Tom; if everyone lynched playstyles that annoyed them over plays that were scummy, the game would suck a whole lot more than it does.
Also, I understand that it will take a while, but when everyone has healed from these events and is ready to lynch scum:
Reading tom as it is can be annoying, but unlike other players I have played with, at least you can decipher his reads. Even if it can be a bit over the top.
@Nacho: I am more curious at how you got to a Seppel vote.
I feel like Seppel is really falling through the cracks here.
I'll climb out soon enough.
My issue with this game is such:
I want to lynch Cyan and Eco.
Iso wants to lynch Cyan and Eco.
I don't trust Iso at all. He could have handled the mason reveal a lot more subtly. The only reason to be so obvious to EVERYONE is to alert his buddies to not attack Az or Chris. Even something like "I have no reason to suspect Az or Chris, and they know why." would be puzzling enough for the rest of the players, but obvious to Az and Chris without spilling info and opportunities to see some genuine scumtell from people attacking Az or Chris.
So it's like, I have to guess which of Iso's reads is the truest scum.
Why not just vote Iso?
Unvote, vote Iso
Why not.
So... in your head, you've independently decided that Cyan and Eco are scum, and that Iso's scum. But he's scumreading your scumreads. But you came to the Iso read later; you were on Eco very early. So you've retroactively changed the narrative that Iso=scum is stronger than your other two reads, and that he's bussing one and only one of his partners.
I have to say, this doesn't strike me as a particularly town mindset. It seems kind of... circular isn't the word I'm looking for, but something similar.
Like. Your primary reason for scumreading Iso if I"m reading that post correctly is that he outed the Masons to alert his buddies. That... could have happened, I guess. But I feel like - and this is something that I've felt all game, about you, about Iso, about like half the playerbase, is that you tell yourself this story, but don't tell yourself any other possible stories, and don't think out loud about what makes one story more likely than the other. Like it is possible you are all just so much better than I am that you're doing all this work in your heads and just not bothering to talk about it and that's okay with everyone because they can kind of see it too, but if so I confess I'm just hopelessly behind.
Because, let me tell you a story. In this story, Iso is town who figured out Chris and Azrael were Masons, and wanted to look clever, so he outed them, because the utility of Masons is townclearing people, and he didn't think there was much utility in catching anyone pushing a bad case on them, because Chris and Az are strong players who scum are unlikely to seriously push.
"Oh I'm under fire with no chance of survival, let's find something inconsequential to replace out for, and hope that my replacement will do better than me."
Hang on I just thought of something potentially dumb.
This is probably stupid, but I was almost burned by this once:
@Sir Chris and Azrael -
You are hardclaiming that you are confirmed town to each other and share a 24/7 chat, correct?
I.e. "Masons" on this site means what I assume it means.
Correct.
OK, we're all good, thanks.
One time I almost pushed a paranoia case on a lock town read who shared a QT with me who claimed to be a "Masonizer" and it didn't come with alignment confirmation, and I thought I remember Proph saying something about Neighbors and Masons being equivalent terms on MTGS.
But, okay, yeah. That's kind of trivially falsifiable via NK or at worst, mass claim later on, so.
It's kind of surprising that Proph put those roles into a 12 person game, though. Like. I dunno if I can really overstate the value of townclears on you two on D1.
I don't buy Sir Chris' town-clear on Eco, at all. His response to pressure, his repeated pocket attempts, his unoriginality. When people post as much as he does and are under the microscope as much as I've put him, I almost always get an accurate town-ping if it's justified, and I'm not from him. I'm willing to stack my town-read skills up against Sir Chris's, here. I've got too many reliable town-pings elsewhere to anticipate a mistake on this slot, particularly with the scum-tells I'm seeing.
For God's sake Az. What pocketing? What unoriginality? What about my response to pressure? I get that you're super paranoid and would really like to be right, but if a guy drops three independent analysis posts that line up well with your internal thinking then maybe he's more likely to be Town on your wavelength than some sort of mind reading wizard looking to pocket you.
Hnnnn.
@Sir Chris
@Azreal
If you were to make an analogy or set a little scene to represent what's happening in this post, what would it be?
Actually a better question setup might be:
There are several individual sentences in this Eco post I feel speak to his mindset, but one of them gives me a particularly strong feeling. Do you feel that way, what is that sentence, and what alignment do you get from it?
Private Mod Note
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I'll let you use your imagination with how I am viewing that last Iso post
Also, I'm still town.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I've already explained why I'm not convinced. I simply don't see where GJ reacted the way you described. I don't see the factual basis for your argument.
Your move. Long or short as you like it, or ignore it altogether, if you please. No ultimatum.
I'm forming a costumed superhero team with Seppel.
DIScourse, not INTERcourse!
Sure fooled me!
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Your basis for Cyan was the same as GJ, reacting to your accusing him as scum, which I haven't seen in my read on him. Your Eco read, unless it's changed, we agree upon.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
What's crackin folks?
[4] Vaimes - Cyan, Gentleman Johnny, Seppel, Nachomamma8
[2] Iso - Ecophagy, Azrael
[2] Gentleman Johnny - Voxxicus, Sir Chris
[1] Cyan - Iso
[1] Voxxicus - tomsloger
[1] tomsloger - Newcomb
Not Voting: Vaimes
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Deadline is on Wednesday, December 14th.
I will contact Voxx about the replacing.
I do not push scumreads hard. I get townreads and end up voting off my non-town reads whenever they happen to get wagoned. That is my playstyle 90% of the time; occasionally I'll have a game where I get a really strong scumread on someone, but it doesn't happen often. It's not something I can force, nor do I especially care to. It wears me out, makes me enjoy the game less, and then I end up lurking and that doesn't help anyone. I did not get voted into this game for being super analytical or bloodthirsty, so if that's what's expected of me, then I'd just rather not play. I know the rest of you love your walls and your pushes and your secret reasons for everything, but do not project that onto me.
<Separately, Seppel, you in particular can **** off.> I'm not here to entertain you. This is how I play mafia, every game, all the time, and if you're going to whine about it, then I do not care.
All I remember you doing is starting the Eco wagon and throwing your vote around. You don't see me *****ing about it.
---
Anyway.
I'm town, and at this rate, I'm going to easily prove it before the end of the Day with the amount of antialignments I'm probably creating.
Sir Chris and Az are apparently Masons, so that's easy.
I think Newcomb, Voxxslot, and tom are town. I'm trying not to let that whole spider drama affect my reads there.
Iso is a "I want to let him prove himself" townlean. And you can take that read to the bank, Seppel.
Seppel is eh, probably whiny town.
Leaving four names!
Gentleman Johnny
Ecophagy
Cyan
Nachomamma8 r. mallorean_thug
At the absolute least, I feel decent about at least one of these players being scum. I only say that because I've had some *****ty luck in townreading entire scumteams before.
I'd say of the four, I feel the strongest about Cyan. Still don't know what he thinks about anything, except that Eco and I are scum together.
Vote Cyan
Listen.
The spider thing was about fun.
That is why I did it, regardless of alignment (yes, I know how much people hate when I say that)
I decided it the second I got a spider in my role pm.
I'm not gonna check my pm for the name of it, but if there's hearthstone players its a 1/2 that makes two 1/1s when it dies.
If you really want to read me based on that decision, I've only gimmicked up once as scum and it wasn't as fun.
But I don't want you to read me that way and it's all wifom anyway.
Yes of course there's strategy involved. You don't act like I do in mafia games and not learn a few insights on how scum react to it. But that's just how I play it, not why I do it
Yes I do play to win, but no its not my main goal. It's the same way I play magic actually.
But I do need to consider that it's a team game.
I don't want to go all mafia theory.
I barely want to talk about this at all.
I was a spider. Now I'm not.
I explained what I was trying to say as a spider, though I maintain you're all clever enough to understand it in spider form if you really wanted to.
Now I'm just a boring old mafia player with a really sweet method of making reads lists.
Let's move on.
Finally, trying to stop voxx from replacing out was entirely oog.
I hope he comes back.
And maybe we can lynch him.
He fits on a hell of a lot of teams
Tom can scurry back to my null pile, after that explanation. Reread continuing.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Mind explaining it to me before I'm forced to catch up?
The things that I remember seeing from you about Iso are "he's being a parody of his usual self" type of flavors.
I can actually see a town Eco in some of these posts, such as this one.
I hate the reasoning he's given for his wagon choices, b/c I just don't see what he's describing, and they also seemed like wagons of opportunity. Even the wagons I've sort of agreed with him on, I dislike the way he's pushing them, and his emotional profile in the early part of the thread seemed way off in actuality from what he was projecting it to be. And ever since then, he's been in an analysis stand-still, because he supposedly has the game solved. Don't much care for his mason reveal either, but honestly, that's null for him. Quick summary, feels like he's just going throw the motions without a lot of heart in it, except for occasionally when he feels that heart would be expected of him.
but i feel more strongly about my townreads of newcomb, chris, and your slot
and would probably just sheep any 2 of you if you seemed excited about a lynch
i sort of hate that townreading chris means i have to townread azrael too, but I GUESS
I'll keep that in mind, thank you.
I see it coming from scumEco as a sort of frustration with his scumbuddy for not backing him up or pushing elsewhere, and then a tacked-on bit of distancing at the end.
tom.
Be my hero and vote Cyan.
You, too, Nacho.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
if youre scum who would be your buddies based on your play this game?
NVM, his one post is just too good, too good.
Hell, I dunno. Probably Vaimes and Nacho? But that's just off the top of my head.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Which post is that?
[4] Ecophagy - Seppel, Vaimes, Azrael, Sir Chris
[1] Newcomb - Gentleman Johnny
[1] Azrael - Ecophagy
Not Voting: Iso, tomsloger, Voxxicus, Newcomb, Cyan, mallorean_thug
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
---
Vote Count 1.02
[5] Ecophagy - Seppel, Vaimes, Azrael, Sir Chris, Iso
[1] Seppel - Gentleman Johnny
[1] Newcomb - tomsloger
[1] Cyan - mallorean_thug
[1] mallorean_thug - Voxxicus
[1] Voxxicus - Ecophagy
Not Voting: Newcomb, Cyan
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
---
Vote Count 1.03
[5] Ecophagy - Seppel, Vaimes, Azrael, Sir Chris, Iso
[1] Seppel - Gentleman Johnny
[1] Cyan - mallorean_thug
[1] mallorean_thug - Voxxicus
[1] Voxxicus - Ecophagy
[1] Iso - tomsloger
[1] Vaimes - Cyan
Not Voting: Newcomb
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
---
Vote Count 1.04
[5] Ecophagy - Seppel, Vaimes, Azrael, Sir Chris, Iso
[2] Vaimes - Cyan, Gentleman Johnny
[1] Cyan - mallorean_thug
[1] mallorean_thug - Voxxicus
[1] Voxxicus - Ecophagy
[1] Azrael - tomsloger
Not Voting: Newcomb
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
---
Vote Count 1.05
[5] Ecophagy - Vaimes, Azrael, Sir Chris, Iso, Seppel
[2] Cyan - mallorean_thug, tomsloger
[2] Vaimes - Cyan, Gentleman Johnny
[1] mallorean_thug - Voxxicus
[1] Voxxicus - Ecophagy
Not Voting: Newcomb
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
---
Vote Count 1.06
[3] Ecophagy - Vaimes, Iso, Seppel
[2] Voxxicus - Azrael, Ecophagy
[2] Cyan - mallorean_thug, tomsloger
[2] Vaimes - Cyan, Gentleman Johnny
[1] mallorean_thug - Voxxicus
Not Voting: Newcomb, Sir Chris
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
---
Vote Count 1.07
[4] Vaimes - Cyan, Gentleman Johnny, Sir Chris, Seppel
[4] Cyan - mallorean_thug, tomsloger, Vaimes, Iso
[1] Voxxicus - Ecophagy
[1] Iso - Azrael
[1] Gentleman Johnny - Newcomb
Not Voting: Voxxicus
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
---
Vote Count 1.08
[3] Gentleman Johnny - Newcomb, Voxxicus, Sir Chris
[3] Cyan - mallorean_thug, Iso, Seppel
[2] Vaimes - Cyan, Gentleman Johnny
[2] Voxxicus - Ecophagy, tomsloger
[1] tomsloger - Azrael
Not Voting: Vaimes
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
---
Vote Count 1.09
[4] Vaimes - Cyan, Gentleman Johnny, Seppel, Nachomamma8
[2] Iso - Ecophagy, Azrael
[2] Gentleman Johnny - Voxxicus, Sir Chris
[1] Cyan - Iso
[1] Voxxicus - tomsloger
[1] tomsloger - Newcomb
Not Voting: Vaimes
With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
I think the two most important worlds right now are the ones where Eco is town, or Eco is scum.
If Eco is scum, then it makes it that much more likely that his entire wagon is town (and, barring the mafia fakeclaiming Masons and crossing their fingers, I know that 3/5 of it are 100% town). But if he's town, then uh. There's ~probably one between Seppel and Iso, which should definitely be revisited at some point. Also possible that mafia avoided the wagon entirely, which I guess would make sense in town!Eco worlds. Let town mislynch on their own, and then spend the rest of the game trying to find the hidden mafia on the wagon.
Eco's wagon stalling points to either 1) scum being happy and not wanting to rock the boat, or 2) scum being unhappy but also not knowing how to rock the boat without getting called out. Given everyone's experience level here, and the fact that no other wagon got more than two votes for the first half of the game, I'm more inclined to believe in #1. Which leads me to believe that the mafia were probably voting off-wagon.
Looking at the second votecount:
I refuse to believe there's more than one mafia voting for Eco here. Which means there's at least two of them voting elsewhere.
Two mafia in [GJ/mal/Eco/Cyan]. Maybe even three, barring misreads.
I barely have the arrogance to think I have even one mafia pegged, heh.
And now look at these three votals:
We have competing wagons now!
Pay particular attention to how the top wagon goes from me vs. Cyan, to Cyan vs. GJ, back to just me all by my lonesome. Given that I know I'm town, I think it's a good bet that one of Cyan/GJ are scum, and I'm the mislynch scum are trying to push to shift focus away from (one of?) them. Which makes me very suspicious of Nacho, chilling at the end of my wagon without a permit.
Speaking of which, tom: to me, your metaread on mal seems to be "mal is too afraid of potential backlash to make such a baity post as scum because [past games]." I'll admit, your line "you make that as town for reactions and its great. but you make that post as scum for the story" struck me as being really, really true. But given his very limited posting, I don't want to put a ton of weight into a read like that. Nacho is here and will hopefully make his alignment clear one way or the other.
Unless Eco can clear himself via scumhunting, or just being tonally town enough for me to be sure. I'm not picky about townfirms.
Iso, at the beginning of the game you suggested that the lack of Eco counterwagons made the Cyanslot more likely scum, because Cyan hadn't posted.
Would you say the same could be possible for mal? He posted, but like. Barely. Certainly not enough to push elsewhere.
Sorry if you already mentioned this somewhere, I legit just had this revelation.
His post where he talks about getting Eco lynched early and bringing his A-game.
Don't worry your pretty little head, Vaimes.
Hard Town
8. Azrael
9. Newcomb
12. Seppel
6. Sir Chris
4. Vaimes
2. Gentleman Johnny
Lean Towards Not Lynching Today
5. Voxxicus
10. Cyan
1. Iso
We Can Lynch These Guys
3. tomsloger
7. Ecophagy
11. Nachomamma8 r. mallorean_thug
I can legit understand people buying Tom's explanation for spider-posting, I think even Tom believes it and convinced himself. But I still think he's scum based on POE and being unimpressed with his work and participation.
Stubborn.
I can maybe buy him really going outside himself to make that post, but I cannot see his early chippiness along with it
I wish he was here to see me finally read him right
I'm pretty over it though. tom, I'm done talking about this until postgame except to say that it feels like you killed my puppy. Despite how much Voxx and I have talked mafia over the last year and a half, despite the fact that he's my mentor and I respect the hell out of him, we've only ever played once together and it was Stargate and I was A) scum, and B) he had to replace mid-D1 due to RL stuff. So to say that I'm pissed off about that is kind of an understatement.
I don't agree at all that we could have figured out what you meant if we'd tried. You are experienced enough to know that content is barely the point; it's mindset. I look at what you originally wrote about why you townread Mal, and then when you dropped the gimmick to explain it, and there is nuance in there that's objectively impossible to just guess from what you originally wrote. "Denying people insight into your thoughts" cannot be a playstyle. It just can't. If everyone did what you were doing, the game would be a nightmare hell-scape of crossed wires and reads with zero depth and the spiciness of overcooked pasta mush. By all means, have fun, post gifs, *****post, roleplay a spider. But only after you've eaten your vegetables and posted clear, coherent, relevant thoughts. Anyone who doesn't do that should just be lynched, full stop.
/rant over, I appreciate you dropping the shtick, but it's going to take me a while to work the chip off my shoulder from Voxx replacing out, so you'll forgive me if I kind of steer clear of you for a while.
Unvote
Vote: Gentleman Johnny
Back to your regularly scheduled game.
Hey Nacho talk to me about this.
This is probably stupid, but I was almost burned by this once:
@Sir Chris and Azrael -
You are hardclaiming that you are confirmed town to each other and share a 24/7 chat, correct?
I.e. "Masons" on this site means what I assume it means.
As a replace-in to a 700 post game you thought an RVS-type vote might engender some kind of useful reaction?
Correct.
You don't seem that curious.
So... in your head, you've independently decided that Cyan and Eco are scum, and that Iso's scum. But he's scumreading your scumreads. But you came to the Iso read later; you were on Eco very early. So you've retroactively changed the narrative that Iso=scum is stronger than your other two reads, and that he's bussing one and only one of his partners.
I have to say, this doesn't strike me as a particularly town mindset. It seems kind of... circular isn't the word I'm looking for, but something similar.
Like. Your primary reason for scumreading Iso if I"m reading that post correctly is that he outed the Masons to alert his buddies. That... could have happened, I guess. But I feel like - and this is something that I've felt all game, about you, about Iso, about like half the playerbase, is that you tell yourself this story, but don't tell yourself any other possible stories, and don't think out loud about what makes one story more likely than the other. Like it is possible you are all just so much better than I am that you're doing all this work in your heads and just not bothering to talk about it and that's okay with everyone because they can kind of see it too, but if so I confess I'm just hopelessly behind.
Because, let me tell you a story. In this story, Iso is town who figured out Chris and Azrael were Masons, and wanted to look clever, so he outed them, because the utility of Masons is townclearing people, and he didn't think there was much utility in catching anyone pushing a bad case on them, because Chris and Az are strong players who scum are unlikely to seriously push.
What makes your story better than my story?
OK, we're all good, thanks.
One time I almost pushed a paranoia case on a lock town read who shared a QT with me who claimed to be a "Masonizer" and it didn't come with alignment confirmation, and I thought I remember Proph saying something about Neighbors and Masons being equivalent terms on MTGS.
But, okay, yeah. That's kind of trivially falsifiable via NK or at worst, mass claim later on, so.
It's kind of surprising that Proph put those roles into a 12 person game, though. Like. I dunno if I can really overstate the value of townclears on you two on D1.
Okay I could be tunneling but.
Like I'm town and I read Seppel's list and posting what GJ posted was basically the furthest thing from my mind.
Hnnnn.
@Sir Chris
@Azreal
If you were to make an analogy or set a little scene to represent what's happening in this post, what would it be?
Actually a better question setup might be:
There are several individual sentences in this Eco post I feel speak to his mindset, but one of them gives me a particularly strong feeling. Do you feel that way, what is that sentence, and what alignment do you get from it?