Well, if it's really me holding the game up I apologize again. But this looks like how it's going to be going forward. It seems like all I can manage these days are short bursts of activity.
You are also failing to explain why I ought to be listening to anything you have to say. That tends to happen when you lie (for no good reason I suppose, which it appears you didn't have).
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I should review TIM because I don't remember why he's town.
Also GJ has run away.
Nope. Just yelling at high school kids to do their work.
An oddly fitting analogy for this game currently.
Still stand by my wanting to lynch WF. Everyone okay with him living for a day has to be okay with him shooting another townie. Doesn't matter where we empower today because we have no idea how much empowerment he has, regardless of what WF may say.
GJ can wait, his interactions with Iso weren't great but this wagon is horrible as well.
Not sure claiming makes sense at this point, only one scum is dead, too many ways it goes wrong still.
What/who are you referring when you say the GJ wagon is horrible? It's basically the exact same people that were on the Wildfire wagon. I agree with the rest of your stuff on Wildfire, but I'm also curious about where you actually stand on GJ other than his interactions with Iso (and/or what about his interactions with Iso you think are of concern).
Not empowering anyone: Anaklusmos, Zomgarcwind, Cyan, and Megiddo. If any of you did since Az last posted, please correct this. If not, please empower someone in your next post.
WF took a parting shot on the most powerful town role we had at the time knowing he was one of the most likely to die today. Of course he wouldn't have a better excuse than he has presented, it's because he is is straight lying.
@Cyan I don't believe for a second you would never activate that ability, and calling it bad play regardless of alignment is beyond disingenuous.
Vote wildfire
I am noting this post just to say that, if WF does flip scum, I think it basically clears Anak. I don't think he makes this post this way at this time to bus his scum-buddy.
After careful consideration, Cythare's is now in charge of all actions regarding this game.
All of them.
and to confirm what DV said once again, I burned my one way chat on trying to notify DV that WF was attacking
At risk of sounding out of touch, when did Cythare get "confirmed" again either? I have no especially bad feeling about him, but all I remember is Tom saying he was basically confirmed for secret reasons (i.e. hidden communications between him/DV/Cythare) Which is all well and good for Tom, but hardly qualifies as lock-clear. Are you just taking Tom's word for it here? Or are you basing it on something else?
To answer your questions: @ Axel If someone I target with my kill-removal ability tries to submit the Mafia NK, they will be told it failed.
This is the 5 empower ability? Is that right?
Yes, sir.
Quote from Cyan »
GJ making stuff up to try to force through a bad WF lynch. Who knew!
This is the definition of flailing scum. GJ knows that he is getting lynched ultimately, and is just trying to pull through one more town mislynch first, by any means necessary. Especially since WF is basically the Vig.
Also, what were you guys saying about someone claiming Miller? It's a little hard to believe that a Miller would exist when the Cop is already kind of neutered.
I should review TIM because I don't remember why he's town.
Also GJ has run away.
Nope. Just yelling at high school kids to do their work.
An oddly fitting analogy for this game currently.
Still stand by my wanting to lynch WF. Everyone okay with him living for a day has to be okay with him shooting another townie. Doesn't matter where we empower today because we have no idea how much empowerment he has, regardless of what WF may say.
GJ can wait, his interactions with Iso weren't great but this wagon is horrible as well.
Not sure claiming makes sense at this point, only one scum is dead, too many ways it goes wrong still.
What/who are you referring when you say the GJ wagon is horrible? It's basically the exact same people that were on the Wildfire wagon. I agree with the rest of your stuff on Wildfire, but I'm also curious about where you actually stand on GJ other than his interactions with Iso (and/or what about his interactions with Iso you think are of concern).
I am just ITCHING for him to answer you so that I can tell you what caught my eye. Don't want to taint his response, though.
Not empowering anyone: Anaklusmos, Zomgarcwind, Cyan, and Megiddo. If any of you did since Az last posted, please correct this. If not, please empower someone in your next post.
WF took a parting shot on the most powerful town role we had at the time knowing he was one of the most likely to die today. Of course he wouldn't have a better excuse than he has presented, it's because he is is straight lying.
@Cyan I don't believe for a second you would never activate that ability, and calling it bad play regardless of alignment is beyond disingenuous.
Vote wildfire
I am noting this post just to say that, if WF does flip scum, I think it basically clears Anak. I don't think he makes this post this way at this time to bus his scum-buddy.
After careful consideration, Cythare's is now in charge of all actions regarding this game.
All of them.
and to confirm what DV said once again, I burned my one way chat on trying to notify DV that WF was attacking
At risk of sounding out of touch, when did Cythare get "confirmed" again either? I have no especially bad feeling about him, but all I remember is Tom saying he was basically confirmed for secret reasons (i.e. hidden communications between him/DV/Cythare) Which is all well and good for Tom, but hardly qualifies as lock-clear. Are you just taking Tom's word for it here? Or are you basing it on something else?
To answer your questions: @ Axel If someone I target with my kill-removal ability tries to submit the Mafia NK, they will be told it failed.
This is the 5 empower ability? Is that right?
Yes, sir.
Quote from Cyan »
GJ making stuff up to try to force through a bad WF lynch. Who knew!
This is the definition of flailing scum. GJ knows that he is getting lynched ultimately, and is just trying to pull through one more town mislynch first, by any means necessary. Especially since WF is basically the Vig.
Also, what were you guys saying about someone claiming Miller? It's a little hard to believe that a Miller would exist when the Cop is already kind of neutered.
Everyone okay with him living for a day has to be okay with him shooting another townie.
Uh, no, we don't. We recognize this COULD happen, but there are steps WE THE TOWN can take to prevent it.
You'd understand this if you were Town.
Explain to me how you know how much empowerment WF has remaining currently. Pro tip, mafia can freely transfer empowerment at any time, and once per game anyone can send their current empowerment at night to someone else, the rules don't say if if that is in thread or through PM.
You're operating on this assumption that WF has no empowerment and you can control how he gets it. Neither of those things are true
Well, if it's really me holding the game up I apologize again. But this looks like how it's going to be going forward. It seems like all I can manage these days are short bursts of activity.
You are also failing to explain why I ought to be listening to anything you have to say. That tends to happen when you lie (for no good reason I suppose, which it appears you didn't have).
All right, I'm going to pick up from THIS post and finish looking at the Iso lynch, just for completeness sake if nothing else.
Fourth Vote: Tom @1290. Choo-Choo. So, yeah, that's not the best reasoning, but if Tom was already suspicious of Iso it's probably fine. Looking back, Tom has approzimately one million posts, so that's fun. It looks like Tom wasn't saying anything at all about Iso the day of the lynch. Until the vote, at which point he appeared to get very interested in Iso even to the point of doing a case. Before that, there was not much. I just remembered the whole thing from D1 when DV sent messages to Tom framed as if DV was scum (or a neutral?) and Tom said nothing about it, despite claiming in the thread that he believed what DV was saying. Which looked scummy then and still seems scummy to me now.
The best point in Tom's favor is not anything he has posted but the simple fact that DV lived through last night when he had apparently claimed his whole role to Tom. Scum would have wanted to off DV asap. And also, seems like scum should not have missed their kill if Tom was scum and DV told Tom who he was targeting. Like, maybe there's some serious scum gambitting going on here and we don't have all the information, but it certainly seems unlikely. Ironically, WF being scum here is one possible explanation for why the scum could have let DV live last night even knowing his role - because they were planning to just shoot him today. And they could have intentionally not shot at DV because they could have been scared DV wasn't being completely truthful with Tom about who he was doccing or if he could self-Doc. and there was also this"
Quote from DV »
If I die tonight Tom would be someone to look at since I've revealed all to him. He has a lot of trust from me right now, but I've been wrong before.
but that still doesn't explain the missing kill.
If anyone thinks that they know a reason why the scum could have missed a kill last night that doesn't involve DV doccing someone, please say so. (I don't want to know what the reason is. I'm not asking for a claim I just want to hear whether there is a possible alternate explanation.) Because if there isn't one then I think Tom's clear.
Fifth Vote: Shadow @1313. This was in response to WF shooting Tordeck. Shadow thought Iso's reaction to it read as fake-planned. It's an interesting point, and it doesn't read like a bus. The fact Iso was the leading wagon at the time means it's still possible for it to have been a bus and Shadow was just looking for a reason to get on that wasn't pure "wagon." But that's not how it feels. Plus I like some of Shadow's follow-up posts with Iso.
Sixth Vote: Anak @1475. Now this one does look kind of bussy. It's almost classic in the way that the post itself isn't saying anything about Iso, but is talking about Manders, but the vote is thrown in there kind of as an afterthought. Now, it is also true, however, that Anak had said "consider my vote on Iso" exactly one post before, but that's not actually helping the case. What changed from the post where you said "consider my vote on Iso" to the next post where you voted him? Do I take it you were just waiting for a votecount? Like, to be assured that you weren't going to be dropping the hammer with your vote? That's just a little weird to me.
Seventh Vote: GJ @1539. This appears to be almost purely a "meta" vote. Following along with (at least?) two other people (Cyan and Seppel?) who have already stated that Iso's play here is drastically different from some game that just finished. That's not amazing. Iso was already on his scummy list from before though, so that's better. Though it doesn't appear he interacted much with Iso or ever really pushed him earlier.
I feel very waffly about this whole thing. A lot of these votes don't do much for my confidence in the voter. I think TIM and Shadow look the best. Seppel, Cyan and Tom kind of middle. GJ and Anak maybe the worst looking. Though I also waffle there because it feels a little weird to me that two scumbuddies would jump on a wagon at the end.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Explain to me how you know how much empowerment WF has remaining currently. Pro tip, mafia can freely transfer empowerment at any time, and once per game anyone can send their current empowerment at night to someone else, the rules don't say if if that is in thread or through PM.
You're operating on this assumption that WF has no empowerment and you can control how he gets it. Neither of those things are true
I'm getting sick and tired of you guys assuming I don't understand fully what's going on. It's already gotten me a ******* flaming warning.
Yes, I understand that things COULD HAPPEN to result in WF getting empowerment without us realizing it.
I ALSO understand that HE CAN'T ******* SHOOT WITHOUT US KNOWING. PERIOD.
Well, a WF lynch is far from a done deal here as you may have noticed. There appear to be a great many people excusing him on the grounds that his actions were too scummy to have come from scum. Given that, it would be very easy for a scum-buddy Anak to stay away from the WF wagon and hope he somehow lives through the day, as the scum would absolutely love for WF to keep on living (and I think that would be true even if WF were Town.) So this kind of a strong vote from Anak points away from him being scum with WF. I think he'd try to shy away from it if he could, or waffle some, or wait longer to see how the wind was blowing. Something like that.
If he's Town, he is our vig. How is he not?
Because he's not? I'll grant it's similar, but it's not. Certainly not in the traditional vig. sense. If the Town had 0 other ability to kill or no ability to kill at Night, it would be closer, but I do not believe that to be the case.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Explain to me how you know how much empowerment WF has remaining currently. Pro tip, mafia can freely transfer empowerment at any time, and once per game anyone can send their current empowerment at night to someone else, the rules don't say if if that is in thread or through PM.
You're operating on this assumption that WF has no empowerment and you can control how he gets it. Neither of those things are true
Um, this one is pretty simple, you know. No one is saying that as long as we don't give WF any more Empower he's forever completely powerless. But, if we don't give him any more, and he still shoots someone tomorrow, then, well, that empower pretty much must have come from a scum-buddy, yes? And then we turbo-lynch WF if that were to happen. That's the proposition, at least. It's not one I'm a big fan of, but I at least understand it.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Here's a thought experiment: let's say I had an ability that would essentially "clear" me, but, at the cost of giving the scum an extra Night Kill. My default has been this is not worth it (let's call this one my "2" Empower).
Anyone disagree with that?
My "4" empower is better, but it does not "clear" me.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Well, a WF lynch is far from a done deal here as you may have noticed. There appear to be a great many people excusing him on the grounds that his actions were too scummy to have come from scum. Given that, it would be very easy for a scum-buddy Anak to stay away from the WF wagon and hope he somehow lives through the day, as the scum would absolutely love for WF to keep on living (and I think that would be true even if WF were Town.) So this kind of a strong vote from Anak points away from him being scum with WF. I think he'd try to shy away from it if he could, or waffle some, or wait longer to see how the wind was blowing. Something like that.
Fair enough, this is possible.
If he's Town, he is our vig. How is he not?
Because he's not? I'll grant it's similar, but it's not. Certainly not in the traditional vig. sense. If the Town had 0 other ability to kill or no ability to kill at Night, it would be closer, but I do not believe that to be the case.
I'm not sure what makes you think Town has ways to kill at Night seeing as how there's only been one death one Night, but I'm not interested in delving deeper into this. At least no now.
Explain to me how you know how much empowerment WF has remaining currently. Pro tip, mafia can freely transfer empowerment at any time, and once per game anyone can send their current empowerment at night to someone else, the rules don't say if if that is in thread or through PM.
You're operating on this assumption that WF has no empowerment and you can control how he gets it. Neither of those things are true
Um, this one is pretty simple, you know. No one is saying that as long as we don't give WF any more Empower he's forever completely powerless. But, if we don't give him any more, and he still shoots someone tomorrow, then, well, that empower pretty much must have come from a scum-buddy, yes? And then we turbo-lynch WF if that were to happen. That's the proposition, at least. It's not one I'm a big fan of, but I at least understand it.
Thank you for seeing that it was ridiculous for him to even say this to me. Like, seriously, how could anyone who's even remotely paying attention not realize this? This is why I feel that statement was made JUST to insult my intelligence, and I do not appreciate that in the least. I think I've proven throughout the years that I am NOT stupid.
Here's a thought experiment: let's say I had an ability that would essentially "clear" me, but, at the cost of giving the scum an extra Night Kill. My default has been this is not worth it (let's call this one my "2" Empower).
Anyone disagree with that?
My "4" empower is better, but it does not "clear" me.
I do not disagree with this.
If you were super active, super obvious Town Axelrod, I would disagree with it, but you are not, so I do not.
The point that you seem to just be purposefully ignorant to Manders is that unless something magical happened, WF isn't out of the PoE. Even if I do die today, regardless of my flip, don't you just go into WF tomorrow?
The only difference here is that if WF is a wolf, he is going to get empowerment and then shoot someone else.
The point that you seem to just be purposefully ignorant to Manders is that unless something magical happened, WF isn't out of the PoE. Even if I do die today, regardless of my flip, don't you just go into WF tomorrow?
The only difference here is that if WF is a wolf, he is going to get empowerment and then shoot someone else.
Something magical like...killing the Scum team?
Seriously, it doesn't take magic to win the game. If WF is Town and just really bad at it AS I'VE PROPOSED, then we can absolutely win the game without having to lynch him.
If he's Scum, his time will come.
You guys are acting like I think he's CONFIRMED TOWN and will NEVER be willing to lynch him. That's absolutely the farthest from the truth WHICH YOU'D KNOW IF YOU READ MY POSTS, so this is why I say you are insulting my intelligence.
Purposefully ignorant. I want to rage at you so bad right now.
The point that you seem to just be purposefully ignorant to Manders is that unless something magical happened, WF isn't out of the PoE. Even if I do die today, regardless of my flip, don't you just go into WF tomorrow?
The only difference here is that if WF is a wolf, he is going to get empowerment and then shoot someone else.
Something magical like...killing the Scum team?
Seriously, it doesn't take magic to win the game. If WF is Town and just really bad at it AS I'VE PROPOSED, then we can absolutely win the game without having to lynch him.
If he's Scum, his time will come.
You guys are acting like I think he's CONFIRMED TOWN and will NEVER be willing to lynch him. That's absolutely the farthest from the truth WHICH YOU'D KNOW IF YOU READ MY POSTS, so this is why I say you are insulting my intelligence.
Purposefully ignorant. I want to rage at you so bad right now.
There is no way that you don't look at WF upon my death. The only difference is that if you are wrong on WF, you lose two townies. Yes WF is "outted" today, but the fact that he pretty much disappeared pretty much speaks volumes to the fact he can't believe he is still alive.
Like, I flip town. LETS LOOK AT WF SINCE GJ, SC, AND DV were all on the WF wolf train.
I flip wolf, "DO WE REALLY WANT A ROGUE VIG RUNNING AROUND?
You are just so desperate to protect him, aren't you? You ignored my reasoning on his DV shot making no sense, and you ignore reasoning here as well to push your own emotional agenda. Because I upset you or something.
Was your answer to me saying WF was still PoE, regardless of my death or alignment. Are you really going to tell me with a straight face what you didn't mean was that if WF started shooting wolves?
I dug into TIM because I didn't know why I townread him, and ZOMG has been frustrating. Now I know -- TIM is 100% town.
------
At the beginning of the game, TIM attacks Manders and Iso steps in 3 times to defend her. Then he retracts his suspicion and says that he doesn't like Tom for doing nothing and Anaklusmos for overreacting to Cyan's attack on Anaklusmos. TIM attacks GJ's weak reasoning for having a townread on Manders. TIM is very happy to have Cyan in the game. TIM calls out GJ saying Shadow sounds fake, but also says he's leaning scum in Shadow. (Not sure why.) He's also leaning scum in Wildfire, but he explains that read, at least.
Okay, now TIM explains that Shadow seems like he's being fake about his read on Manders. And he feels conflicted about Wildfire, saying that he's being scummy, but it feels like WF is on a completely different wavelength of thought, which has been consistent throughout the game. TIM doesn't get why people are TRing Axelrod for pointing out that my abilities can target the untargetable.
Manders said in early December that her ability is costly, which lines up with what she said now.
TIM gets in a row with GJ about Bur's alignment. GJ is strongly stating that Bur is 100% open wolfing, and TIM just doesn't see it. GJ antagonizes TIM and attacks TIM for not attacking GJ. TIM ends it by voting GJ, declaring a team of Anaklusmos and GJ.
TIM continues by saying: "Let me paraphrase GJ here: "I mentioned Anak two or three times over the course of 700 posts, so I could continue to vaguely justify putting him top of my scum pile.""
Oh god the attacks on GJ just keep coming and they're GOOD attacks. You might want to start at the link above and just read for a bit.
TIM empowers Axelrod and Axelrod questions TIM's method for choosing someone to empower. It doesn't go anywhere.
TIM on Iso: "#919 and #939 are Iso's catchup posts. I need to leave these for the moment as I want to see the conclusions before sinking a lot of time into evaluating the content. It's important to read these carefully, though, as it's pretty easy for good scum players to dump a lot of analysis into the thread and expect most players' eyes to glaze over."
The whole Tom/DV love story begins here and TIM analyzes it and votes Tom. it was dumb to begin with so I don't think there's anything alignment-indicative here.
Suddenly the Bur lynch happens and TIM gets frustrated over it. GJ responds to TIM, unpromptedly defending his position on thinking Bur is scum. TIM follows up by saying: "The crux of the issue is that GJ's opinion of Bur is completely malleable according to what else is going on in the game, and has literally nothing to do with what Bur has/hasn't actually done."
TIM reviews the votes on Bur and says Iso's, GJ's, and Tom's are the worst. He goes into decent detail about why he hates Iso's votes.
TIM reveals he's a Miller and he knows why he's a Miller. probably a self-inflicted action to gain more empowerment, or something.
"The read on Wildfire feels a bit like glomming onto my position, but the comment to the effect that "I polish my posts carefully as scum" seems extremely townie. I don't think scum make comments to this effect (i.e. actively point to their own playstyle). And even if they do, I think they're likely to tell the truth (actively drawing attention to your own scum meta and then blatantly lying about it isn't a great move). So I'm going to assume that scum-Anak does overthink his posts, and if there's one thing I can say about Anak's posts thus far, it's that they don't seem overthought. They seem much more visceral and emotional, rather than overly wrought."
and
"Wrapping up, I feel super conflicted. There's the weird fixation with Cyan, which feels a bit like a scum pocket attempt after that initial overreaction. On the other hand, there's that mid-D1 self-meta-read which just doesn't really fit his/her play this game, and there's the start of D2 where he/she seems to be making a genuine effort. I do think this looks pretty bad for Iso, though, whose "kill it with fire" read on Anak looks like an attempt to gloss over a genuinely complicated set of posts and throw his weight behind the wagon. Unvote. Vote Iso."
NAI for Anaklusmos, but, based on this and everything else I've read, this definitely townclears TIM.
And then TIM replaces out. ZOMG replaces in and is a shadow of his former self.
Here's a thought experiment: let's say I had an ability that would essentially "clear" me, but, at the cost of giving the scum an extra Night Kill. My default has been this is not worth it (let's call this one my "2" Empower).
Anyone disagree with that?
My "4" empower is better, but it does not "clear" me.
Shut up and claim in full to Cythare you gamethrowing monster.
There is absolutely zero reason for you to spill role information into the thread if you're town.
My frustration with you is incredibly high right now.
Was your answer to me saying WF was still PoE, regardless of my death or alignment. Are you really going to tell me with a straight face what you didn't mean was that if WF started shooting wolves?
Manders wasn't implying that wildfire would kill the scum team, she was implying that by us killing the scum team, wildfire wouldn't be scum.
Yes, my face is as straight as can be, and I was not referring to WF killing the Scum team. I was referring to us lynching them and winning the game. That requires no magic.
@ Seppel: In his defense, ZOMG has been trying to re-read the game. I certainly hope he returns soon.
His attack on me was basically blaming me that I couldn't vote more than one person at a time. I had a hierarchy, went for Bur first, and he accused me of trying to set-up Wild as another mislynch and Anak basically as a distance. It was a crap case then, and it still is now. The only reason I would even care about it would be if I thought TIM was a wolf. Considering he is a strong town read, it is more or less just "lolsTIM" and move on. Aside from a headache, there would be nothing to gain from disputing that case.
His attack on me was basically blaming me that I couldn't vote more than one person at a time. I had a hierarchy, went for Bur first, and he accused me of trying to set-up Wild as another mislynch and Anak basically as a distance. It was a crap case then, and it still is now. The only reason I would even care about it would be if I thought TIM was a wolf. Considering he is a strong town read, it is more or less just "lolsTIM" and move on. Aside from a headache, there would be nothing to gain from disputing that case.
That's definitely not what his case is. His case was that you suddenly had strong reads when they were convenient and claimed that you'd had them all along when you had made passing mentions to the people you were "scumreading". The Anak distance thing is correct, but he doesn't accuse you of trying to set up Wildfire either. He says you're lumping Bur in as an afterthought when talking about Wildfire ("whoops I should mention my "top scumread""). Also, the vote isn't the part he's complaining about, and you know it.
You are also failing to explain why I ought to be listening to anything you have to say. That tends to happen when you lie (for no good reason I suppose, which it appears you didn't have).
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Un-Official Empowerment Count:
Seppel - Cyth
Cyth- Shadow, Seppel, Wildfire
MH- Axelrod
Axel- MH
Shadow - Tom, GJ
Not empowering anyone: Anaklusmos, Zomgarcwind, Cyan, and Megiddo. If any of you did since Az last posted, please correct this. If not, please empower someone in your next post.
I am not following your logic here.
I second this line of questioning.
Yes, sir.
If he's Town, he is our vig. How is he not?
Uh, no, we don't. We recognize this COULD happen, but there are steps WE THE TOWN can take to prevent it.
You'd understand this if you were Town.
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Explain to me how you know how much empowerment WF has remaining currently. Pro tip, mafia can freely transfer empowerment at any time, and once per game anyone can send their current empowerment at night to someone else, the rules don't say if if that is in thread or through PM.
You're operating on this assumption that WF has no empowerment and you can control how he gets it. Neither of those things are true
Fourth Vote: Tom @1290. Choo-Choo. So, yeah, that's not the best reasoning, but if Tom was already suspicious of Iso it's probably fine. Looking back, Tom has approzimately one million posts, so that's fun. It looks like Tom wasn't saying anything at all about Iso the day of the lynch. Until the vote, at which point he appeared to get very interested in Iso even to the point of doing a case. Before that, there was not much. I just remembered the whole thing from D1 when DV sent messages to Tom framed as if DV was scum (or a neutral?) and Tom said nothing about it, despite claiming in the thread that he believed what DV was saying. Which looked scummy then and still seems scummy to me now.
The best point in Tom's favor is not anything he has posted but the simple fact that DV lived through last night when he had apparently claimed his whole role to Tom. Scum would have wanted to off DV asap. And also, seems like scum should not have missed their kill if Tom was scum and DV told Tom who he was targeting. Like, maybe there's some serious scum gambitting going on here and we don't have all the information, but it certainly seems unlikely. Ironically, WF being scum here is one possible explanation for why the scum could have let DV live last night even knowing his role - because they were planning to just shoot him today. And they could have intentionally not shot at DV because they could have been scared DV wasn't being completely truthful with Tom about who he was doccing or if he could self-Doc. and there was also this"
but that still doesn't explain the missing kill.
If anyone thinks that they know a reason why the scum could have missed a kill last night that doesn't involve DV doccing someone, please say so. (I don't want to know what the reason is. I'm not asking for a claim I just want to hear whether there is a possible alternate explanation.) Because if there isn't one then I think Tom's clear.
Fifth Vote: Shadow @1313. This was in response to WF shooting Tordeck. Shadow thought Iso's reaction to it read as fake-planned. It's an interesting point, and it doesn't read like a bus. The fact Iso was the leading wagon at the time means it's still possible for it to have been a bus and Shadow was just looking for a reason to get on that wasn't pure "wagon." But that's not how it feels. Plus I like some of Shadow's follow-up posts with Iso.
Sixth Vote: Anak @1475. Now this one does look kind of bussy. It's almost classic in the way that the post itself isn't saying anything about Iso, but is talking about Manders, but the vote is thrown in there kind of as an afterthought. Now, it is also true, however, that Anak had said "consider my vote on Iso" exactly one post before, but that's not actually helping the case. What changed from the post where you said "consider my vote on Iso" to the next post where you voted him? Do I take it you were just waiting for a votecount? Like, to be assured that you weren't going to be dropping the hammer with your vote? That's just a little weird to me.
Seventh Vote: GJ @1539. This appears to be almost purely a "meta" vote. Following along with (at least?) two other people (Cyan and Seppel?) who have already stated that Iso's play here is drastically different from some game that just finished. That's not amazing. Iso was already on his scummy list from before though, so that's better. Though it doesn't appear he interacted much with Iso or ever really pushed him earlier.
I feel very waffly about this whole thing. A lot of these votes don't do much for my confidence in the voter. I think TIM and Shadow look the best. Seppel, Cyan and Tom kind of middle. GJ and Anak maybe the worst looking. Though I also waffle there because it feels a little weird to me that two scumbuddies would jump on a wagon at the end.
And that makes you believe him because why?
Yes, I understand that things COULD HAPPEN to result in WF getting empowerment without us realizing it.
I ALSO understand that HE CAN'T ******* SHOOT WITHOUT US KNOWING. PERIOD.
So stop insulting my ******* INTELLIGENCE.
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Because he's not? I'll grant it's similar, but it's not. Certainly not in the traditional vig. sense. If the Town had 0 other ability to kill or no ability to kill at Night, it would be closer, but I do not believe that to be the case.
Um, this one is pretty simple, you know. No one is saying that as long as we don't give WF any more Empower he's forever completely powerless. But, if we don't give him any more, and he still shoots someone tomorrow, then, well, that empower pretty much must have come from a scum-buddy, yes? And then we turbo-lynch WF if that were to happen. That's the proposition, at least. It's not one I'm a big fan of, but I at least understand it.
Anyone disagree with that?
My "4" empower is better, but it does not "clear" me.
I'm not sure what makes you think Town has ways to kill at Night seeing as how there's only been one death one Night, but I'm not interested in delving deeper into this. At least no now.
Thank you for seeing that it was ridiculous for him to even say this to me. Like, seriously, how could anyone who's even remotely paying attention not realize this? This is why I feel that statement was made JUST to insult my intelligence, and I do not appreciate that in the least. I think I've proven throughout the years that I am NOT stupid.
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If you were super active, super obvious Town Axelrod, I would disagree with it, but you are not, so I do not.
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The only difference here is that if WF is a wolf, he is going to get empowerment and then shoot someone else.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Seriously, it doesn't take magic to win the game. If WF is Town and just really bad at it AS I'VE PROPOSED, then we can absolutely win the game without having to lynch him.
If he's Scum, his time will come.
You guys are acting like I think he's CONFIRMED TOWN and will NEVER be willing to lynch him. That's absolutely the farthest from the truth WHICH YOU'D KNOW IF YOU READ MY POSTS, so this is why I say you are insulting my intelligence.
Purposefully ignorant. I want to rage at you so bad right now.
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There is no way that you don't look at WF upon my death. The only difference is that if you are wrong on WF, you lose two townies. Yes WF is "outted" today, but the fact that he pretty much disappeared pretty much speaks volumes to the fact he can't believe he is still alive.
Like, I flip town. LETS LOOK AT WF SINCE GJ, SC, AND DV were all on the WF wolf train.
I flip wolf, "DO WE REALLY WANT A ROGUE VIG RUNNING AROUND?
You are just so desperate to protect him, aren't you? You ignored my reasoning on his DV shot making no sense, and you ignore reasoning here as well to push your own emotional agenda. Because I upset you or something.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Back to ignoring you it is, I see.
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The GJ way path to no lynching:
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Manders wasn't implying that wildfire would kill the scum team, she was implying that by us killing the scum team, wildfire wouldn't be scum.
Trying to get you to stop making stupid assumptions isn't being condescending. I am sorry you feel that way.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Was your answer to me saying WF was still PoE, regardless of my death or alignment. Are you really going to tell me with a straight face what you didn't mean was that if WF started shooting wolves?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
------
At the beginning of the game, TIM attacks Manders and Iso steps in 3 times to defend her. Then he retracts his suspicion and says that he doesn't like Tom for doing nothing and Anaklusmos for overreacting to Cyan's attack on Anaklusmos. TIM attacks GJ's weak reasoning for having a townread on Manders. TIM is very happy to have Cyan in the game. TIM calls out GJ saying Shadow sounds fake, but also says he's leaning scum in Shadow. (Not sure why.) He's also leaning scum in Wildfire, but he explains that read, at least.
Okay, now TIM explains that Shadow seems like he's being fake about his read on Manders. And he feels conflicted about Wildfire, saying that he's being scummy, but it feels like WF is on a completely different wavelength of thought, which has been consistent throughout the game. TIM doesn't get why people are TRing Axelrod for pointing out that my abilities can target the untargetable.
Manders said in early December that her ability is costly, which lines up with what she said now.
This post is painful to try to read: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/763629-disinheritance-mafia-day-3?comment=766
I'm skipping it because my phone says no.
TIM gets in a row with GJ about Bur's alignment. GJ is strongly stating that Bur is 100% open wolfing, and TIM just doesn't see it. GJ antagonizes TIM and attacks TIM for not attacking GJ. TIM ends it by voting GJ, declaring a team of Anaklusmos and GJ.
Here's the dunk:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/763629-disinheritance-mafia-day-3?comment=807
TIM continues by saying: "Let me paraphrase GJ here: "I mentioned Anak two or three times over the course of 700 posts, so I could continue to vaguely justify putting him top of my scum pile.""
Oh god the attacks on GJ just keep coming and they're GOOD attacks. You might want to start at the link above and just read for a bit.
TIM empowers Axelrod and Axelrod questions TIM's method for choosing someone to empower. It doesn't go anywhere.
TIM on Iso: "#919 and #939 are Iso's catchup posts. I need to leave these for the moment as I want to see the conclusions before sinking a lot of time into evaluating the content. It's important to read these carefully, though, as it's pretty easy for good scum players to dump a lot of analysis into the thread and expect most players' eyes to glaze over."
The whole Tom/DV love story begins here and TIM analyzes it and votes Tom. it was dumb to begin with so I don't think there's anything alignment-indicative here.
Suddenly the Bur lynch happens and TIM gets frustrated over it. GJ responds to TIM, unpromptedly defending his position on thinking Bur is scum. TIM follows up by saying: "The crux of the issue is that GJ's opinion of Bur is completely malleable according to what else is going on in the game, and has literally nothing to do with what Bur has/hasn't actually done."
TIM reviews the votes on Bur and says Iso's, GJ's, and Tom's are the worst. He goes into decent detail about why he hates Iso's votes.
TIM reveals he's a Miller and he knows why he's a Miller. probably a self-inflicted action to gain more empowerment, or something.
TIM analyzes Anaklusmos: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/763629-disinheritance-mafia-day-3?comment=1285
Highlights:
"The read on Wildfire feels a bit like glomming onto my position, but the comment to the effect that "I polish my posts carefully as scum" seems extremely townie. I don't think scum make comments to this effect (i.e. actively point to their own playstyle). And even if they do, I think they're likely to tell the truth (actively drawing attention to your own scum meta and then blatantly lying about it isn't a great move). So I'm going to assume that scum-Anak does overthink his posts, and if there's one thing I can say about Anak's posts thus far, it's that they don't seem overthought. They seem much more visceral and emotional, rather than overly wrought."
and
"Wrapping up, I feel super conflicted. There's the weird fixation with Cyan, which feels a bit like a scum pocket attempt after that initial overreaction. On the other hand, there's that mid-D1 self-meta-read which just doesn't really fit his/her play this game, and there's the start of D2 where he/she seems to be making a genuine effort. I do think this looks pretty bad for Iso, though, whose "kill it with fire" read on Anak looks like an attempt to gloss over a genuinely complicated set of posts and throw his weight behind the wagon. Unvote. Vote Iso."
NAI for Anaklusmos, but, based on this and everything else I've read, this definitely townclears TIM.
And then TIM replaces out. ZOMG replaces in and is a shadow of his former self.
There is absolutely zero reason for you to spill role information into the thread if you're town.
My frustration with you is incredibly high right now.
Yes, my face is as straight as can be, and I was not referring to WF killing the Scum team. I was referring to us lynching them and winning the game. That requires no magic.
@ Seppel: In his defense, ZOMG has been trying to re-read the game. I certainly hope he returns soon.
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You are still going to bruise through me, anak and and Shadow and then get so confused why the mafia team won at the end.
Seppel attacking Axel is pretty lolsy.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Ctr+F Divine, and you are the only person on this page to actually use that word, so explain what you mean.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
claims dont mean much in this game, and the information doesnt get to me anyway
In the meantime, can you guys start coming up with optimal empowerment targets?
i dont think im actually gonna manage to get my own, but i cant do anything special with it anyway
I need 5.
Cyan needs 4 (as 2 seems like a waste)
Shadow needs 2 or 4
Axel could use 2.
I feel they should be fulfilled in that order, but of course not everyone else will.
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