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See Tom only is nervous if he lied to us about believing him, which he could have done, but you can't use Tom's word as being good and then say "why would he do x"
The world where Tom believes him and Tom is nervous do not co-exist.
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See Tom only is nervous if he lied to us about believing him, which he could have done, but you can't use Tom's word as being good and then say "why would he do x"
The world where Tom believes him and Tom is nervous do not co-exist.
Oh but they do! Let's say Tom believes D_V is a neutral survivor who seems to know he's scum. What's to stop D_V ratting him out to the town in the future?
Because in the same breath he said he wants scum to win. This is a fun game.
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See Tom only is nervous if he lied to us about believing him, which he could have done, but you can't use Tom's word as being good and then say "why would he do x"
The world where Tom believes him and Tom is nervous do not co-exist.
Oh but they do! Let's say Tom believes D_V is a neutral survivor who seems to know he's scum. What's to stop D_V ratting him out to the town in the future?
I actually legit made this argument to him in our thread.
His response was basically a "What are you talking about".
DV was calling me scum in thread and via PM.
i assumed he would keep doing so no matter what i did.
i dont think scum me would have thought any different.
i can say that if your reasoning involves scum me trusting DV not to double cross me, it is intrinsically flawed
Tom said he didn't use his reply on you, D_V. Where did he respond?
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I'm just not on the same page as Sir Chris, like whatsoever. He says he wants the scum to win right now, but he's a ******* survivor who seems to know he's scum. You're telling me you wouldn't be nervous?
D_V, you threatened to rat Tom out? And he responded with "What are you talking about?"
I'm just not on the same page as Sir Chris, like whatsoever. He says he wants the scum to win right now, but he's a ******* survivor who seems to know he's scum. You're telling me you wouldn't be nervous?
D_V, you threatened to rat Tom out? And he responded with "What are you talking about?"
this narrative that im not doing anything and that my posts arent worth reading is very odd
like, im agreeing i dont have super strong opinions.
but i have opinions. and i write them.
idgi
@manders
well, if i wanted to share i would have
but it just seems odd you didnt say anything to that based on what youre saying to gj right now
do you really think seppel should just be believed?
just because its a cool role or...
DV was calling me scum in thread and via PM.
i assumed he would keep doing so no matter what i did.
i dont think scum me would have thought any different.
i can say that if your reasoning involves scum me trusting DV not to double cross me, it is intrinsically flawed
Actually, wait.
This is not the truth here.
I backed off Tom the moment that I started the convo with him. Literally unvoted. People were saying it was my scummiest move too and called me out on it.
@Iso - What you call a mistake I call purposeful disinformation. WF made a claim that while I'm not the only one that could call him out on it I am the best to do so as I obviously know my own meta best. It is my theory that he was banking on me missing it or getting enough people behind it before I could call him on it that it wouldn't matter what I said in my defense. Unfortunately for him I am actually paying attention to what it is going on and he got caught. After tom, WF is the best candidate for a scum lynch toDay.
I'm just not on the same page as Sir Chris, like whatsoever. He says he wants the scum to win right now, but he's a ******* survivor who seems to know he's scum. You're telling me you wouldn't be nervous?
D_V, you threatened to rat Tom out? And he responded with "What are you talking about?"
If he had said that to me and I was scum I would have immediately went to the thread and ratted him out with no hesitation.
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If he had said that to me and I was scum I would have immediately went to the thread and ratted him out with no hesitation.
We're either talking past each other or you're being purposely obtuse. Presumably D_V didn't say "right now" - that was my emphasis added. A neutral who knows Tom's alignment is not good for the scum, regardless of whom he/she wants to "win with." Why would a neutral hesitate to rat out Tom and win "with the town" if that eventually becomes easier?
D_V, is there any way Tom could have misunderstood what was going on or your threat to rat him out? Because "what are you even talking about?" doesn't seem like the appropriate response from a town perspective. I would expect something more like "go right ahead dude."
D_V, is there any way Tom could have misunderstood what was going on or your threat to rat him out? Because "what are you even talking about?" doesn't seem like the appropriate response from a town perspective. I would expect something more like "go right ahead dude."
he told me to convince him not to out me
which i guess was an actual threat since apparently hes being believed right now
which is literally the dumbest thing ive ever seen in a mafia game, and ive personally claimed jester three times
listen. dv thinks im scum.
he said it in thread
then started sending me messages framed as if i was scum
it was fun.
so im not really seeing the town motivation to tell yall... what?
that dv is neutral?
or just that hes a ridiculous human being?
the latter we all know
and the former seems like info town doesnt need right now and could be good to keep from the scum
especially with the wincon he claimed
D_V, is there any way Tom could have misunderstood what was going on or your threat to rat him out? Because "what are you even talking about?" doesn't seem like the appropriate response from a town perspective. I would expect something more like "go right ahead dude."
he told me to convince him not to out me
which i guess was an actual threat since apparently hes being believed right now
which is literally the dumbest thing ive ever seen in a mafia game, and ive personally claimed jester three times
listen. dv thinks im scum.
he said it in thread
then started sending me messages framed as if i was scum
it was fun.
so im not really seeing the town motivation to tell yall... what?
that dv is neutral?
or just that hes a ridiculous human being?
the latter we all know
and the former seems like info town doesnt need right now and could be good to keep from the scum
especially with the wincon he claimed
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I'm having a hard time rationalizing why Tom would care about a neutral survivor that wanted to win with the scum. I would see that and wonder what that even means. The one way I see to leverage that information is seeing how others react to you while knowing you are that survivor.
As scum I would throw that information out there, and let the town fight over whether or not they believed it. Using that to disrupt the game.
Believing you enough to vote Seppel doesn't really change it. As a neutral survivor who you want to work with is something that can change many time to best suit your needs, it's not like you claimed scum godfather and he sat on that.
I don't see how this makes Tom scum, and I see many ways he could be town, so that's what I am going with.
Iso your post looks like a lot of work, appreciate that. Parsing through what it means and what to gleam from it still
By the way "I'm not seeing the town motivation" is the most epic line I have ever had to snap vote anyone ever.
I guess I just try too hard sometimes to see the town when it isn't there. Good job DV.
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Tom I think this is where you claim and literally beg for mercy <_<.
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By the way "I'm not seeing the town motivation" is the most epic line I have ever had to snap vote anyone ever.
I guess I just try too hard sometimes to see the town when it isn't there. Good job DV.
i think i see what youre getting at here, but since i was responding to TIM saying a good townie would out it immediately i am genuinely wondering why i should have
i still dont see a benefit (other than, apparently, avoiding this bull*****. which would also be a scum motivation.)
We can also go with the fact that you had, during this entire process of explaining yourself, 0 paranoia that DV was scum screwing with you.
Seriously Tom you're toast ;x.
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Okay, could you please kinda elaborate? I'm having hard time seeing what you see in tom's "What?" reaction to "You don't see the town motivation to you all"...
@DV: Could you confirm/deny that you said those things in that order that tom claimed earlier? Thanks.
@TIM: This more interesting than 95 % of the things that has happened in this game so far.
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
I'm having a hard time rationalizing why Tom would care about a neutral survivor that wanted to win with the scum. I would see that and wonder what that even means. The one way I see to leverage that information is seeing how others react to you while knowing you are that survivor.
As scum I would throw that information out there, and let the town fight over whether or not they believed it. Using that to disrupt the game.
Believing you enough to vote Seppel doesn't really change it. As a neutral survivor who you want to work with is something that can change many time to best suit your needs, it's not like you claimed scum godfather and he sat on that.
I don't see how this makes Tom scum, and I see many ways he could be town, so that's what I am going with.
Iso your post looks like a lot of work, appreciate that. Parsing through what it means and what to gleam from it still
How is this a town post? Just..how.
What are you guys seeing re: Anak that I'm not.
This is basically where I'm at.
@TIM: While I get the conclusion you've come to on tom, I can't get behind lynching him at this point because of Anak. They definitely can't be scum together, because I can't see a scenario where two scumbuddies would just tie themselves to each other by casually calling each other town. It's the exact opposite of a recipe for success, and Anak seems far and away the clearer scumread to me.
@Chris: okay, now I don't quite understand your quick turn-around on Tom. Can you explain better what caused that? Was it literally the line: "I'm not seeing the town motivation" (referring to his own reason for not "outing" DV, which is admittedly, a very strange thing for Town-Tom to say).
My only issue right now is more the fact that this is a one-way communication, which I wasn't really thinking about. I can kind of see how, if someone started messaging me suddenly, telling me they thought I was scum, I might completely ignore them (and not waste my own 1-shot link just to argue with them). And, how, if they went further and claimed to be neutral who wanted to "win with the scum", I might continue to ignore them, and actually assume they were lying and trying to bait me. It might, I suppose, make me think they were more Townie. And I might try and do something in the main thread to try to convince them that I was Town. Maybe?
Of course, this is not what Tom apparently thought.
And what I would definitely not do would be to play along with this person in the thread, act like I believed them and like I was trying to keep their secret for them.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
And @Iso, as someone who has done his fair share of info-dumping in his time, I can say that the problem is what you are doing is so disconnected from what is actually going on right now that it's very easy to completely ignore/skip over it. There may be some good stuff in there, but I'm not even reading it because I've got other things to do. I imagine I'll read it later, but it would be better for you to be more engaged with the present.
The next thing on my own to-do list is a review of both Bur and Anak. I feel like the "odds" suggest there's a good chance at least one of them is scum?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Okay, could you please kinda elaborate? I'm having hard time seeing what you see in tom's "What?" reaction to "You don't see the town motivation to you all"...
This is a scumpost.
Bur posts nothing, but then he perks up when someone has a case on someone else, but he can't clearly see the case because he hasn't been paying attention.
I can tell this is what Bur is thinking, because I'm not town and I haven't been paying attention and I thought about posting what Bur posted but realized that would be stupidly scummy to do. Because hey, a lynch is a lynch and I need to know why I'm voting.
So we got tom, WF, Bur and Anak as the majority of players calls for scum. Add in Seppel as a 5th nontown and I think in a game this size we have it solved. So I say we pick the first one to swing. See how they how they flip and night goes then if we were wrong we can reevaluate. If we aren't we go to the next living player on that list. Rinse and repeat as needed to win.
So we got tom, WF, Bur and Anak as the majority of players calls for scum. Add in Seppel as a 5th nontown and I think in a game this size we have it solved. So I say we pick the first one to swing. See how they how they flip and night goes then if we were wrong we can reevaluate. If we aren't we go to the next living player on that list. Rinse and repeat as needed to win.
If you seriously think that's it, you are completely crazy. It is literally never that simple.
Also, what's up with "the majority of players calls?" Like, the majority can't/has never been wrong? That's beyond silly.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
******* neutral claims. It's hard enough to focus on them when I am in good health.
Chris is right though, this points to a more town tomsloger, even if I don't agree with how he has been playing the game.
@Chris you probably got it right. I learned to follow you, and I know when to pick a fight with you when I feel you are wrong (cough cough, Iso and Rhand, cough cough).
Look at who finally got his fire back when momentum shifted (hi Bur)
@Bur's team: I made the mistake of buddying that slot when I should have dunked in DT. Don't make the mistake of not bussing, or you will be hunted down
@Iso: I read your giant post, and I can't figure out what your propsed team was from that list.
I always feel nervous when I agree with Seppel on a person, but his calling out Bur was a complete mindmeld with me. So, eh.
So we got tom, WF, Bur and Anak as the majority of players calls for scum. Add in Seppel as a 5th nontown and I think in a game this size we have it solved. So I say we pick the first one to swing. See how they how they flip and night goes then if we were wrong we can reevaluate. If we aren't we go to the next living player on that list. Rinse and repeat as needed to win.
If you seriously think that's it, you are completely crazy. It is literally never that simple.
Also, what's up with "the majority of players calls?" Like, the majority can't/has never been wrong? That's beyond silly.
tom wasn't exactly an easy catch. We could just be sitting in a "lolswolves" scenario.
@GJ: Can you explain the dissonance in tone/thought between:
"Chris is right though, this points to a more town tomsloger, even if I don't agree with how he has been playing the game."
and
"tom wasn't exactly an easy catch. We could just be sitting in a "lolswolves" scenario."
I completely missed the "lack of DV being scum paranoia point.
It's going to sound cheesy and culty, but I have played a lot with townSC and scumSC. TownSC is rarely ever wrong with his town clears. Even if DV was a hard town read, one would still be paranoid of the "screwing with me" mentality that DV is certainly capable of. tom's tone I have felt this game since early day 1 is he is trying to bluff townPR that doesn't want to draw a night kill. The reason being a bluff is that there is no way his ability is better than some of the other abilities out there unless this is basically a super insane swingy build, even accounting for the "empowerment" mechanic.
I am pretty ok in SC's pocket right now. I can't think about this game in a strong way right now. I hate chain lynches, but Bur-Anak-Wildfire-tom seems like a pretty fine way to proceed right now. Part of me is wary that I feel like I havne't changed my reads too much, and all the players stronger than me are town. But eh, sometimes that's how the cookie crumbles. I
I could shoehorn in Iso/Cyan for the veteran wolf, I suppose. But that is based off of nothing. Both have been really low impact, but I get the "solve the game" feeling from both, so really don't care to prod there.
lolswoves = no deep wolf, every wolf is super obvious.
Okay, could you please kinda elaborate? I'm having hard time seeing what you see in tom's "What?" reaction to "You don't see the town motivation to you all"...
This is a scumpost.
Bur posts nothing, but then he perks up when someone has a case on someone else, but he can't clearly see the case because he hasn't been paying attention.
I can tell this is what Bur is thinking, because I'm not town and I haven't been paying attention and I thought about posting what Bur posted but realized that would be stupidly scummy to do. Because hey, a lynch is a lynch and I need to know why I'm voting.
Why do you care about not looking scummy?
@Proph: Wanna open a chat with me? I still haven't used my 1-shot.
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
I've never seen Tom get defensive about me calling him scum. Heck this game I started doing it almost as a joke.
In my mind he over reacted to it.
That's why I started to do this whole thing.
Tom also just hasn't been posting much and has been in my mind spending way more time attempting to look town than actually giving out reads.
Other than saying Anaks town, I can't think of a single read he even has pushed. That's how little he has said.
I've never seen Tom get defensive about me calling him scum. Heck this game I started doing it almost as a joke.
In my mind he over reacted to it.
That's why I started to do this whole thing.
Tom also just hasn't been posting much and has been in my mind spending way more time attempting to look town than actually giving out reads.
Other than saying Anaks town, I can't think of a single read he even has pushed. That's how little he has said.
to be fair, no one has ever listened to you before
Other reads are there. Not on me if you don't remember them
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Town points to GJ! I intentionally left out any connections between players I had noticed as part of the possible team elimination process.
Seriously, guys - how do any of you think he's scum?
I'll be including something on team possibilities when I wrap up.
There's a good amount to comment on later today but this is so, so dumb. Saying "I usually do X, town points to anyone who notices what I didn't do" is effectively the same as "Who's read one of my walls of text recently and can be bothered to critically read this one?"
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So we got tom, WF, Bur and Anak as the majority of players calls for scum. Add in Seppel as a 5th nontown and I think in a game this size we have it solved. So I say we pick the first one to swing. See how they how they flip and night goes then if we were wrong we can reevaluate. If we aren't we go to the next living player on that list. Rinse and repeat as needed to win.
Tordeck goes in the scumpile for this post. Like, Jesus. "Majority players calls for scum"? Yes hi, I am sheep, watch me baa.
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The world where Tom believes him and Tom is nervous do not co-exist.
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I actually legit made this argument to him in our thread.
His response was basically a "What are you talking about".
DV was calling me scum in thread and via PM.
i assumed he would keep doing so no matter what i did.
i dont think scum me would have thought any different.
i can say that if your reasoning involves scum me trusting DV not to double cross me, it is intrinsically flawed
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D_V, you threatened to rat Tom out? And he responded with "What are you talking about?"
In thread with one of the redacted posts.
Yeah I'm pretty certain.
I'll go find the post.
Dis post.
Actually, wait.
This is not the truth here.
I backed off Tom the moment that I started the convo with him. Literally unvoted. People were saying it was my scummiest move too and called me out on it.
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If he had said that to me and I was scum I would have immediately went to the thread and ratted him out with no hesitation.
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D_V, is there any way Tom could have misunderstood what was going on or your threat to rat him out? Because "what are you even talking about?" doesn't seem like the appropriate response from a town perspective. I would expect something more like "go right ahead dude."
which i guess was an actual threat since apparently hes being believed right now
which is literally the dumbest thing ive ever seen in a mafia game, and ive personally claimed jester three times
listen. dv thinks im scum.
he said it in thread
then started sending me messages framed as if i was scum
it was fun.
so im not really seeing the town motivation to tell yall... what?
that dv is neutral?
or just that hes a ridiculous human being?
the latter we all know
and the former seems like info town doesnt need right now and could be good to keep from the scum
especially with the wincon he claimed
WAIT
Wait.
Do you really think I'm neutral?
##vote: Tom
God I sometimes just walk right past the obvious.
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How is this a town post? Just..how.
What are you guys seeing re: Anak that I'm not.
I guess I just try too hard sometimes to see the town when it isn't there. Good job DV.
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i... kinda think you would totally play it this way if you were though...
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i still dont see a benefit (other than, apparently, avoiding this bull*****. which would also be a scum motivation.)
Seriously Tom you're toast ;x.
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his push on me is idiotic, but i think he believes it
if im seriously getting lynched for this, my dying wish is that no one is allowed to push DV for my death
actually if im getting lynched for this **** you guys we deserve to lose
Okay, could you please kinda elaborate? I'm having hard time seeing what you see in tom's "What?" reaction to "You don't see the town motivation to you all"...
@DV: Could you confirm/deny that you said those things in that order that tom claimed earlier? Thanks.
@TIM: This more interesting than 95 % of the things that has happened in this game so far.
@TIM: While I get the conclusion you've come to on tom, I can't get behind lynching him at this point because of Anak. They definitely can't be scum together, because I can't see a scenario where two scumbuddies would just tie themselves to each other by casually calling each other town. It's the exact opposite of a recipe for success, and Anak seems far and away the clearer scumread to me.
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My only issue right now is more the fact that this is a one-way communication, which I wasn't really thinking about. I can kind of see how, if someone started messaging me suddenly, telling me they thought I was scum, I might completely ignore them (and not waste my own 1-shot link just to argue with them). And, how, if they went further and claimed to be neutral who wanted to "win with the scum", I might continue to ignore them, and actually assume they were lying and trying to bait me. It might, I suppose, make me think they were more Townie. And I might try and do something in the main thread to try to convince them that I was Town. Maybe?
Of course, this is not what Tom apparently thought.
And what I would definitely not do would be to play along with this person in the thread, act like I believed them and like I was trying to keep their secret for them.
The next thing on my own to-do list is a review of both Bur and Anak. I feel like the "odds" suggest there's a good chance at least one of them is scum?
Bur posts nothing, but then he perks up when someone has a case on someone else, but he can't clearly see the case because he hasn't been paying attention.
I can tell this is what Bur is thinking, because I'm not town and I haven't been paying attention and I thought about posting what Bur posted but realized that would be stupidly scummy to do. Because hey, a lynch is a lynch and I need to know why I'm voting.
The Family
If you seriously think that's it, you are completely crazy. It is literally never that simple.
Also, what's up with "the majority of players calls?" Like, the majority can't/has never been wrong? That's beyond silly.
Chris is right though, this points to a more town tomsloger, even if I don't agree with how he has been playing the game.
@Chris you probably got it right. I learned to follow you, and I know when to pick a fight with you when I feel you are wrong (cough cough, Iso and Rhand, cough cough).
Look at who finally got his fire back when momentum shifted (hi Bur)
@Bur's team: I made the mistake of buddying that slot when I should have dunked in DT. Don't make the mistake of not bussing, or you will be hunted down
@Iso: I read your giant post, and I can't figure out what your propsed team was from that list.
I always feel nervous when I agree with Seppel on a person, but his calling out Bur was a complete mindmeld with me. So, eh.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
The GJ way path to no lynching:
tom wasn't exactly an easy catch. We could just be sitting in a "lolswolves" scenario.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
"Chris is right though, this points to a more town tomsloger, even if I don't agree with how he has been playing the game."
and
"tom wasn't exactly an easy catch. We could just be sitting in a "lolswolves" scenario."
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
I completely missed the "lack of DV being scum paranoia point.
It's going to sound cheesy and culty, but I have played a lot with townSC and scumSC. TownSC is rarely ever wrong with his town clears. Even if DV was a hard town read, one would still be paranoid of the "screwing with me" mentality that DV is certainly capable of. tom's tone I have felt this game since early day 1 is he is trying to bluff townPR that doesn't want to draw a night kill. The reason being a bluff is that there is no way his ability is better than some of the other abilities out there unless this is basically a super insane swingy build, even accounting for the "empowerment" mechanic.
I am pretty ok in SC's pocket right now. I can't think about this game in a strong way right now. I hate chain lynches, but Bur-Anak-Wildfire-tom seems like a pretty fine way to proceed right now. Part of me is wary that I feel like I havne't changed my reads too much, and all the players stronger than me are town. But eh, sometimes that's how the cookie crumbles. I
I could shoehorn in Iso/Cyan for the veteran wolf, I suppose. But that is based off of nothing. Both have been really low impact, but I get the "solve the game" feeling from both, so really don't care to prod there.
lolswoves = no deep wolf, every wolf is super obvious.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Why do you care about not looking scummy?
@Proph: Wanna open a chat with me? I still haven't used my 1-shot.
Things to note.
I've never seen Tom get defensive about me calling him scum. Heck this game I started doing it almost as a joke.
In my mind he over reacted to it.
That's why I started to do this whole thing.
Tom also just hasn't been posting much and has been in my mind spending way more time attempting to look town than actually giving out reads.
Other than saying Anaks town, I can't think of a single read he even has pushed. That's how little he has said.
Other reads are there. Not on me if you don't remember them
Seriously, guys - how do any of you think he's scum?
I'll be including something on team possibilities when I wrap up.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Lord knows I didn't
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Tordeck goes in the scumpile for this post. Like, Jesus. "Majority players calls for scum"? Yes hi, I am sheep, watch me baa.
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