Further scum tom has no reason to go soft on seppel over this. Either he never votes his buddy or he goes super hard and uses you as a scapegoat in the end. He's fine, your play was a bit silly but it discovered a town perspective so good work.
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i mean, youre right that im town
but if i was scum, i think i would have only used that to distract town if the game was going poorly for my team
so you prolly shot your wad a bit early on that read.
also didnt care for that WF vote though
tordecks is scummy too, but thats... in character for him
idk. not sure scumwildfire would really think he can get me lynched over that.
unless he actually thinks i havent made myself way less lynchable since the classic. which... would take a fairly specific team around him to not tell him.
Fine you're town for caring about the integrity of the reasoning of my read on you, geesh don't be so picky.
(just kidding that's good, always care about the reasoning)
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Scum Tom can't prove that I said anything of the sort. As a scum member its an extremely risky play to make.
Problem with this is that it isn't a risky play because of a simple thought:
'Why the **** would anyone just randomly make this up?"
It's a too out there thought for day 1. If Tom had said you said that I would have 100% believed him. He isn't that creative. And if I believed him well, I don't need much help in painting the walls red with blood, I do a fine job of disrupting a day all by myself.
@ Tordeck - I could be, I suppose. Mind explaining where my logic breaks down?
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Why would a scum Tom vote Seppel based on anything D_V said?
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I think I agree scumtom would just put it out there immediately, but the goal would be just to avoid getting too embroiled in a seppel/dv thing
Sounds dangerous
@DV you should keep sending me messages though
I'll keep responding with cryptic @redacteds
It'll be dope
The way I see it is, while scum might be quick to out and jump on DV's claim, the fact that tom went after Seppel is plenty damning in and of itself. If he's scum and has evidence that Seppel is lying, that means he knows that Seppel is ripe for mislynch. And as scum, with DV telling him he's a Survivor who wants to ally with town means he has reason to throw Seppel on the lynching block first.
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The way I see it is, while scum might be quick to out and jump on DV's claim, the fact that tom went after Seppel is plenty damning in and of itself. If he's scum and has evidence that Seppel is lying, that means he knows that Seppel is ripe for mislynch. And as scum, with DV telling him he's a Survivor who wants to ally with town means he has reason to throw Seppel on the lynching block first.
Why couldn't town!tom do those things? I mean, if you were a town and found out that there's a neutral (#1) in this game who openly didn't CC another neutral (#2), would you just ignore neutral #2, even though that player's likely lying?
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Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
Why couldn't town!tom do those things? I mean, if you were a town and found out that there's a neutral (#1) in this game who openly didn't CC another neutral (#2), would you just ignore neutral #2, even though that player's likely lying?
Personally, as town, I would have shared all of the information with the rest of the town, almost immediately. DV's misdirection would then come to light and the whole thing would fizzle out, but we would likely get some good information from the rest of the game's reactions to tom, DV, and Seppel. Tom instead choosing to hold the information close to his chest and just vote Seppel without pushing him was the least towniest way to play it.
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I told Tom that I was a neutral survivor that wanted to win with the scum and wanted him to tell his scum buddies this information as well. I also indicated that I "Knew seppel was lying and that I wasn't going to counter claim his buddy".
You can see where he responded to this information by voting Seppel.
I'm not 100% certain to do with the information.
But I feel that if Tom was Town that he would have claimed.
OK smarter people than me discuss.
You told Tom you wanted to win with the scum?
If that's what you told him, I fail to see how Tom's reaction is Town? Chris, you're saying the scum response would be to "out" DV and hope to cause chaos, but I rather think the Town response to any kind of crap like that would be to come straight out with it. That is, if you actually believed him, which Tom is claiming he did. If you thought he was full of BS, then I could see possibly not saying anything about it. But where is the Town in keeping something like that a secret? The scum is that you are afraid DV has somehow pegged you as scum (because of his message), maybe you're concerned about how he knew this, and you are trying to keep it as low down as possible.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Couple things about dv though:
He claimed neutral, but not survivor
I did believe him. Lolme.
I would only out him if I though he was working with the scumteam.
Which he wasnt, since he was talking to me.
Did he or did he not say he was planning to win with the scumteam?
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Gonna divide this up by players instead of just strict chronology like I normally do to see if it helps me organize my thoughts on players and give more clarity into my reads for you guys. Unfortunately, that means some of you are only going to read the stuff about you - but, give a little, take a little, I guess.
I'm leaving one particularly important thing out of this post. Let's see if the people who have played with me recently can identify it. Town points to the first person who does.
I'm currently 300 posts into my re-read, so I'll post what I have now and divide this into 3 parts overall. I'm working on this for the next 3-5 hours, so I expect I'll finish today.
As I mentioned, there are little to no notes about some players up to this point but you guys deserve something from me at this point.
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Anaklusmos:
Anak's #93 feels disengaged with the happenings of the game. The response to GJ ("well I guess you're just wrong") here is pretty underwhelming, and the question about tom seems uninspired. I don't remember anything Anak has posted before this point, so he must not have been too impressive early on. I seem to recall not posting anything particularly exciting is a herald of his scum game, if ZDS's Normal is any indicator. Also, Anak calls shadow "silver", here, which also shows he's not really paying attention to solving the game.
#102 isn't much better. It just reads like Anak making an excuse not to analyze what's happened in the game thus far.
Anak's handwave of Cyan's vote feels like false bravado. Anak was super obvtown in Ace Attorney. Anak was super obvscum (in hindsight) in ZDS's Normal. This is not townAnak.
Anak still seems hung up on the Cyan vote in #251. Why?
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Axelrod:
Axelrod's opener feels completely disconnected from the happenings of RVS, so far. Can't say I'm a fan.
Still don't like Axelrod's #37. As I mentioned before, it felt like Axel was quoting somebody. When he confirmed that was not the case, I was a little baffled, since there's no way Axel actually believes that Az would intentionally derandomize somebody's alignment...right? I agree that she seems too excited to be scum, but the fact that Axel would even include that bit about Az being mean to Manders jokingly rubs me the wrong way. There's also no commentary on anything else that's happened to this point in the game. @Axelrod: What gives? I'd expect more from you, here.
And Axel's next post of some sort of substance (#50) is...mechanics talk. Again, no mention of anything actually going on in the thread. What are you doing, Axel? Did you forget how to scum?
Axel's #195 is the first reasonable thing he's posted all game.
I like that Axel basically agrees with my point about D_V empowering Seppel.
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Bur:
Bur's opening is uninspiring. It's completely devoid of feeling and his question to D_V just feels like filler.
Bur's next post, #124, is absolutely uninvested in any developments in the state of the game from the point he made his first post and here. The only thing he comments on is...Seppel's obviously false Neutral claim. Where's the scumhunting?
Then, in #128, Bur claims nothing else interesting has happened over the first 3 pages. I call bull*****. If you want something to happen, you make it happen. This is not a town mindset.
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Cyan:
Cyan's second post about not being sure if D_V's vote was serious or not screams townCyan, here. Cyan had a drop of confidence before he quit Mafia and the fact that he's still a little hesitant here is a good sign. There's no beguilement there - it's just straight-up lament.
Cyan votes Anak in his next post. My hero.
I also like that Cyan steps up to bat for Manders when Chris goes after her. As I mentioned to Manders in our 2-way Comm, I don't believe Cyan doesn't go for the easy mislynch, here, when there was already some blood in the water from TIM's push on Manders. Add this to the fact that Cyan is still voting Anak and I feel like he's being genuine, here.
Cyan believes Seppel's claim...and isn't voting the claimed Neutral. What. Who are you and what have you done with Cyan? I get that Bur is obvscum and definitely stands to be lynched here, but I did not expect you of all people to eat up Seppel's Neutral claim.
Cyan re-votes Anak for the overreaction to Cyan's initial vote on him. This is fine.
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Cythare:
That thing I said about Bur's and Axelrod's openers? I feel the same way about Cythare's, albeit both at the same time.
Cythare comments on Axelrod's useless post regarding Empowerment mechanics, and his joke response to D_V without talking about anything else in the game shows a strong disconnect from what's actually going on. I don't know if he's just busy, but I don't think this looks too great for him.
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D_V:
Early D_V feels like he's enjoying himself and trying to figure out the game, both with the tom vote and the spec ops talk. Leaning town from here.
That said, D_V's early vote on Bur feels like a false "gotcha". If he's scumreading Bur, it shouldn't be for anything to do with the Bur post he quoted, here. I like that he's on Bur on principle, but...I'm uncertain because of the vote justification, in spite of the early town lean, here.
D_V still pushing after tom is good in #123, I think.
D_V /barns my Bur read and Cyan's (and now my) Anak read. I'm a sucker for people who ride my coattails. That said, I absolutely DON'T understand his reason for the tom Unvote. It seems totally out of place and not based on anything that I can see that would necessitate tom being town.
I don't like that D_V empowers a claimed Neutral, here. Particularly when he says he believes Seppel's claim.
I think his reasoning in #210 for doing so is lacking. "I knew I wasn't empowering scum...unless Seppel is scum, and then I am." Why not just empower a freaking townread, here?
D_V's interactions with GJ seem organic in the 260's-270's.
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Gentleman Johnny:
GJ's opening trio of posts feels like he's excited to be in the game, which, while uncharacteristic for a town GJ on Day 1, I believe he mentioned something recently about changing up his playstyle a bit? Anyway, I don't see anything particularly wrong with this.
I also like that he seems eager to interact with people in #32.
I also like that he +towns Manders and +scums Axelrod for #37 and #38.
I don't understand why GJ thinks TIM doesn't look good from the exchange with Manders. It's a perfectly reasonably line of questioning if you don't know Manders terribly well. @GJ: I'm curious, though - what about Anak's early play reminded you of Too Many Cops Mafia?
The way GJ develops his read on Axel in #139 feels organic and fluid. I like that he reconsidered the stance, here, even though I don't necessarily agree with the outcome of his read on Axel being town. His reasoning regarding Manders is also solid and I unless scumGJ is trying to pocket Manders, I don't see him stepping up for her, here. That said, I don't believe he believes Seppel is a Neutral.
GJ's series of posts leading up to the #240 mark are a little underwhelming considering 100 posts happened between them and his last post.
That said, his exchange with tom afterwards seems relaxed and like tom's vote on him doesn't bother him at all. That suggests one of two things to me. What are those things? I'm gonna be cagey, here.
Still rolling my eyes at "I don't think Seppel has ever lied about being a Neutral before."
Still rolling my eyes at the Iso scumread. The exchange with D_V seems organic, though.
I don't like GJ's complete and total emotional meltdown towards the end of the #290's.
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Manders:
Manders is town. She's excited to be back and playing Mafia on MTGS. Her opener shows no hint of nervousness or reservedness that I'd expect a rusty scumManders to display, here.
Manders's reaction to Axel's weird post reflects my own thoughts on the matter.
That said, I can't help but feel that #40 is an overreaction to people calling her town. Even though she may have been a big Nightkill target in the heydays, does she sincerely think she'll be an early Nightkill choice over, say, TheIceMan? Or Cyan? Or Axelrod? Or even myself?
#45 is where the large amount of suspicion over Manders RE: her approach to Axelrod comes into play. I've already given my take on this and I think it makes her more town.
I don't like that she pretends(?) not to know that saying "I HAVE AN OPINION ON THIS PLAYER FOR REASONS I WILL BRING UP LATER IF RELEVANT" is scummy. Wasn't this a popular scum tactic back in the day?
I believe Seppel could have a list of possible passive abilities. Do I believe he's a Neutral? Still no.
I would really like for Seppel to start playing Mafia (as of #294).
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shadowlancerx:
I almost forgot to comment on this guy because all of his posts have said absolutely nothing. It doesn't feel like he's trying to get involved in the game so much as it feels like he's trying to coast by. (Note: This is as of post #200.)
shadow posts in #253 to say "still not posting kthxbai". Sigh.
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Sir Chris:
Chris's insta-troll of Vaimes is amusing but I don't think it necessarily makes him town. That said, I've also mentioned that I think Chris's early approach to Manders was a reasonable town approach to the situation given his lack of experience with her.
I like that Chris also noticed D_V calling tom scum twice as though he didn't do so the first time, but I don't think there's any malicious intent behind D_V's actions, here.
god dammit Chris why are you empowering Seppel
Chris's analysis of Cyan x Manders seems reasonable.
Chris calling out tom is a good look.
That said, Chris's approach to Axelrod feels off. Maybe because it seems largely emotionally driven, but it feels out of place as compared to the rest of Chris's play so far. I think this can reasonably be written off as "Chris was legitimately irritated at Axelrod's jab OoG."
Hey, Chris - #286, you mention that it seems likely that someone calling Manders town early on is scum, but I don't think you ever follow through on that. Can you do that, now?
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TheIceMan:
TIM's a strong player, to my recollection, and I don't think I've played with him since Starcraft Mafia during the Mason debacle with Artifice and Arcadic. I could be misremembering, though. I like his call on D_V for the weird Bur vote, but I don't like that it resulted in a vote because it feels like it doesn't take D_V's RVS prior to that into account. That said, maybe I'm just more in-tune with how D_V has been playing as of late due to the amount of shared games, lately.
TIM mindmelds with me in #41 and #42. Easy town read.
I think TIM's approach to the Manders stuff is a reasonable line to take if he doesn't remember how Manders plays. @TIM: I believe shadow asked this already, but what's your experience with playing with Manders?
Good feels from TIM calling out Bur's garbage 2nd post.
Props to TIM for also calling out D_V's weird Unvote.
TIM's re-read seems fine and I like that it ends in a tom vote.
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tomsloger:
I like tom's confidence in his early Vaimes read.
That said, his follow-up is extremely weak. #47-#49 aren't really saying much of anything; his question to me is useless, I don't understand his reply to Anak, his clarification about his Vaimes read should have come like 40 posts ago since nobody is really paying attention to Spec Ops, and I don't see any actual questioning or scumhunting going on in the game thread. Dislike.
I don't understand the GJ vote. @tom: Explain, por favor. Why announce that it was a pressure vote? Why did you believe GJ needed to be pressured at this point?
oh my god. tom what are you doing (#111)
tom's drive-by post in #120 just...isn't doing anything. He calls D_V town-ish but then says "but maybe not", and then he calls Chris town and says "but maybe not".
tom then talks about Seppel and asks randomly about GJ, who hasn't posted in a while. What?
to tom drive-by discrediting the Bur wagon. There's no feeling here, whatsoever.
Then in #174 he just sort of says "BUT WAS THAT REALLY WHAT I WAS DOING, ISO? WAS IT?" Yes, tom. It was.
Super dislike his follow-up to my question - if he wants a better lynch than Bur, he should be pushing to create one instead of complaining about the lack of one.
"i wanna see other people's waves"
I don't understand tom's fascination with GJ. He was already voting him, if I'm not mistaken, and then he votes him again? tom is obviously not paying attention to what he's doing in this game.
tom finally actually engages GJ. The [redacted] stuff is driving me up the wall because I can't figure out what the hell he's talking about.
tom's reaction to TIM's re-read is uh, what? I don't understand anything tom is trying to get at, here. It's like he's trying to defend himself but then sort of falls short of the mark.
I'm still not understanding tom's GJ boner. He's passively pushing the GJ wagon in #292 and hasn't actually explained to anyone why they should be voting for GJ.
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Tordeck:
Tordeck's opener about Cyan seems reasonable. I don't expect scum would want to un-poison the waters, but stranger things have happened.
Tordeck makes another post...and all he does is ask Manders if she's town. What.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'll take "scum WF skimming for his name and being defensive about it" for 2000, Alex.
Again, I ask, why if you believed D_V as town would you out D_V instead of going for Seppel and seeing what happens there? It is a good play and Tom appears to have made it.
"i want scum to win and I know seppel, the claimed neutral, is lying."
Great time to kill Seppel. A scum Tom never has a reason to vote Seppel there. He wouldn't care if Seppel was lying.
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I'll take "scum WF skimming for his name and being defensive about it" for 2000, Alex.
Again, I ask, why if you believed D_V as town would you out D_V instead of going for Seppel and seeing what happens there? It is a good play and Tom appears to have made it.
"i want scum to win and I know seppel, the claimed neutral, is lying."
Great time to kill Seppel. A scum Tom never has a reason to vote Seppel there. He wouldn't care if Seppel was lying.
You don't think it's unusual at all to see a list of comments about players that includes a name with literally zero under it?
Also, "going for Seppel and seeing what happens there" is one thing, and is a fine, townie thing to do. Putting his vote on Seppel without any attempt to actually make a wagon happen there, while also not saying anything about the guy who literally claimed he wanted to win with the scum, is not.
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No, no, no, what are you talking about? The "town" Tom can do the exact same thing (go for Seppel) but doesn't have to keep secrets for a "Neutral" role he has zero reason to be keeping secrets for. Especially a "Neutal" role that has professed that he wants to win with the scum.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I'm going to take a nap and get back to it since I've been at this for a few hours relentlessly and I had to take care of a drunk and vomiting person until 7 in the morning.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
PM 1: doesnt know what "my buddy seppel" is doing. claimed neutral. says to let my buddies know.
PM 2: says seppel is mislynchable later, leave him alone
PM 3: asks why im bussing johnny
PM 4: asks why i havent outed him to the town for the free mislynch
PM 5: claimed (fake) wincon. it was gaining empowerment (which still makes more sense as a neutral role than seppels, as its dealing with a main game mechanic. but setup gaming blah blah blah)
PM 6: tells me to convince him not to out me (lol)
PM 7: tells me to give up and scumclaim. asks if i really believe hes neutral
Part 2 goes up to post 500 because I've been working on this for 6 and a half hours today and I'm about to have company over.
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Anaklusmos:
462 posts into the game and Anak states only the incredibly obvious. What?
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Axelrod:
At this point (#339), I'd really like Axelrod to give his insight in the game. I think he's town and I liked his observation about the Seppel/Untargetable thing, but it's unfortunate that Axelrod isn't putting some oomph into this game as of yet.
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Bur:
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Cyan:
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Cythare:
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D_V:
#436 "hurr durr people need to post more so I can get reads!" Really?
...and then you Unvote him based on TIM's post? Come on, dude. Are you really trying, here? The timing on this is so forced, and the sneaky Unvote way earlier in the game along with this gives me vibes that you aren't really sure how you need to be voting in this game.
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Gentleman Johnny:
GJ not having any solid town reads 309 posts into the game...actually seems normal for him, oddly enough.
I think GJ swinging a bit at WF to see what gives in #420 is fine.
what the hell is Thunderoming?
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Manders:
I like Manders's wariness of me attempting to pocket her in #319. The rest of the reads seem reasonable for her to have, though I'm disappointed that she didn't find Bur as scummy as I did early on.
While I'm annoyed that Manders changed her vote in a matter of a single post, I don't disagree with either of her votes, so, that's a thing, I guess.
I know GJ said reason-less reads were fine for this exercise, but I'd really like to know the reasons behind shadow's top 3 T/S list in #311.
I don't like that shadow basically says, "neener neener I'm not going to post and you can't do anything about it" in #343 to Manders. Like...it's Mafia. Play the game. Additionally, I don't like the distaste for aggression, but maybe that's because I'm an aggressive player, myself. The follow-up exchange with Manders feels forced, and the vote is absolutely over-the-top.
Wait, what? Bur, tom, and Anak are your top scumreads but you're voting Manders? I like that they're your top scum reads, but please resolve this cognitive dissonance for me.
I think that shadow took Manders's joke way too personally but oddly I think it makes him more town that he's getting butthurt about it. Scum don't usually push people for OoG reasons (unless their name is Wrath_of_Dog).
Okay, I don't think I need to comment on TIM any more. He's pretty obviously town and I can comfortably write him off as such.
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tomsloger:
lolwut? tom thinks Anak is town (#302)? What a joke. And then tom says he's unsure of anything except Vaimes being scum...and VAIMES ISN'T EVEN IN THE MAIN GAME.
Then in #303, tom states he doesn't understand what GJ is doing...yet he's voting for him? And then he backpedals on his stance on Anak and Bur. "Well I guess they COULD be scum but if they're town hoo boy I sure want to analyze those wagons!!!" tom, could you sound any more mechanical, here? You're clearly just going through the motions at this point.
I would like an explanation for #316.
Oh. I guess #327 explains it. Wait. So you're in contact with someone who counterclaimed Seppel as a Neutral? Is that what I'm reading, here? Why would that merit a vote on to Seppel? And again, if you don't like that people aren't posting content, why aren't you prompting them to do so, yourself? "I'm playing reactionary" is a garbage explanation. Also, you literally say you don't have confident reads and then in your next paragraph you say that you have town reads and a strong scumread. tom, what the **** are you doing?
I'd like it if tom interacted with people that were actually in the game (#374) instead of just the spectators and his "special friend".
I wish tom's #401 actually said anything.
#404, you don't honestly know why not pushing for reads is a scummy thing? Am I missing something, here?
And then you piggyback off of TIM and call Wildfire scum? Why did it take someone else pointing out Wildfire's insanity for you to jump on him?
I don't understand why you care so much about the spectators.
I also don't understand why you think your posts are "spitting gold" when you've very clearly stated that you don't have a lot of solid reads. What?
Oh my god. I think I caught something beautiful, here. In #475, tom asks Chris, "so why am I scum if Wildfire is town?" But wasn't TIM the one who said that WF was more likely to be town for his mistakes? And tom is riding off of making such a mistake in a hope to be townread for it. Whaaat.
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Tordeck:
Of all the reasons you could be voting for Wildfire, you choose a policy lynch over something WF was clearly misremembering?
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Wildfire393:
I'm thoroughly unimpressed by your analysis in #320. Are we reading the same game? Also dislike the "now to actually look at my role PM" tacked on at the end. Feels fake.
Your follow-up on Manders ("tells me I'm on the right track") feels like something scum would say to follow up a vote they thought was easy. Like, where's the solving here?
Calling Manders "Manders Busy" is hilarious and also not inaccurate to some degree, but it feels a bit dishonest since...y'know...holiday weekend. Why is Manders the only person you're calling out on this?
lolwut? You think Anak has good content (#378)? Please tell me more about this. Please also explain how D_V's behavior aside from the Seppel stuff is indicative of scum.
Okay, so the explanation for D_V is given...but it feels like totally unbased paranoia. Which actually gives me pause, because uh, that makes me think you're more likely to be town, here. Crackpot theories like the D_V/Seppel thing usually come from town that think they see something that nobody else does. I'm hesitant to fully call you town after this, WF, because the rest of your play has been utterly wtf-inducing, but maybe our wavelengths are just that far off, this game? But then that makes me think you're scum again, because obviously I'm always right, which means other townies should NOT be that far off from me in their own worldview. ****, I'm conflicted.
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I'm having a hard time rationalizing why Tom would care about a neutral survivor that wanted to win with the scum. I would see that and wonder what that even means. The one way I see to leverage that information is seeing how others react to you while knowing you are that survivor.
As scum I would throw that information out there, and let the town fight over whether or not they believed it. Using that to disrupt the game.
Believing you enough to vote Seppel doesn't really change it. As a neutral survivor who you want to work with is something that can change many time to best suit your needs, it's not like you claimed scum godfather and he sat on that.
I don't see how this makes Tom scum, and I see many ways he could be town, so that's what I am going with.
Iso your post looks like a lot of work, appreciate that. Parsing through what it means and what to gleam from it still
I'm having a hard time rationalizing why Tom would care about a neutral survivor that wanted to win with the scum. I would see that and wonder what that even means. The one way I see to leverage that information is seeing how others react to you while knowing you are that survivor.
As scum I would throw that information out there, and let the town fight over whether or not they believed it. Using that to disrupt the game.
Believing you enough to vote Seppel doesn't really change it. As a neutral survivor who you want to work with is something that can change many time to best suit your needs, it's not like you claimed scum godfather and he sat on that.
I don't see how this makes Tom scum, and I see many ways he could be town, so that's what I am going with.
Iso your post looks like a lot of work, appreciate that. Parsing through what it means and what to gleam from it still
still dont think scumanak would treat me like this
#878 (and, to a lesser extent, #880) is what Tom has been doing all game. If he agrees that Seppel's "scum-tell" is stupid, why play the other side and ask if I'm scum? What does that question even accomplish anyway? It's quite tricky to gauge because Tom claims that he hedges his bets and avoids expressing strong opinions as an anti-meta play.
Then things kick off with D_V's #889. My initial thoughts are as follows:
If Tom is scum:
D_V isn't scum, almost for sure. I mean this whole thing seems like a pretty townie play anyways (maybe not 100% thought through, but it's a weird mechanic and seems difficult to use well). I think the first thing that I'd think, as scum, is not "Oh, D_V got lucky and guessed my alignment, I'll just play it cool," but rather "How the hell does D_V know I'm scum?" If D_V does know my alignment, I want him/her to keep it out of the thread at all costs. This means doing enough to keep him/her happy. If D_V guessed my alignment, I don't want to confirm that guess. This means putting on a townie face in the thread. In other words, I have to be townie enough that D_V might think I'm town, and scummy enough that D_V might stay "on my side." (I don't think I give much thought to "working with" D_V, it's far too risky.) Honestly, this looks a lot like what Tom did, what with the "@redacted" posts, Seppel vote (but no serious push), and such.
If Tom is town:
If I were town, my first reaction would have been "What kind of gambit is this?" My next step would depend on my confidence in my own abilities. If I didn't believe in my ability to potentially extricate myself from suspicion later on, I'd just dump the info in the thread. If I thought I could get away with it, I'd play along enough to extract some potentially valuable information.
I really do think Tom's plays look like a scum mindset. This is definitely very complicated logic though, so I'm open to being convinced otherwise.
I don't agree with much of the logic in Sir Chris' #902. It completely misses that D_V singled out Tom. If Tom is scum, he'd have to be extremely nervous about that. Can't see him possibly outing D_V right away, it's a very risky play (even more so if he "likes to prop himself up"). And then #903 is a possible slip. Who said anything about Seppel being scum? D_V made up that Tom and Seppel were buddies, but there's nothing to suggest that Seppel is actually scum even if Tom is. So, yeah, Sir Chris may be scum. At the very least he's making it up as he goes along.
I don't like the way Tom goes about defending himself. It's just designed to create uncertainty. Also note #912, which is designed to remind the town that he was breadcrumbing D_V's PMs.
#919 and #939 are Iso's catchup posts. I need to leave these for the moment as I want to see the conclusions before sinking a lot of time into evaluating the content. It's important to read these carefully, though, as it's pretty easy for good scum players to dump a lot of analysis into the thread and expect most players' eyes to glaze over. I'll do the easy bit and respond to the questions, though. I'm pretty sure Starcraft was the last mafia game I've played, period. That was the one where I invested tons of time into D1 and then got promptly NK'd? As for Manders, I've played with her before, maybe a couple times even. Honestly it's been a while so I don't really remember people's playstyles.
It's then interesting that Bur chooses this moment to make more posts than I think he's done for the rest of the game, combined. Somehow it's really important for him/her to figure out what's going on.
Iceman I was going through possible scenarios. I also went through the scenario where Seppel isn't Tom's scumbuddy, I was discussing both options in weighing in on Tom.
I think you need to read my posts more carefully before weighing in on them.
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it might help you to know that DV has called me scum in i think every game weve been in together except one time when i actually was scum.
so dv yelling that im scum is, basically, just what DV does in my experience.
i voted seppel saying i had reason to believe that he was lying.
yes, that was a breadcrumb about the DV claim. as should be fairly obvious now.
but no i didnt push him. i dont think fake claiming is any kind of scumtell for seppel
as for the way i defend myself...
i kind of dont
like, im never gonna be a "ra ra im town" kind of guy
if im gonna address arguments against me at all, im just gonna say why they are wrong or why they are meaningless
that thing i said about keeping myself in the middle of the poe is a real goal i have, as both alignments.
as scum, it serves me to not be seen as a nightkill target and lets me have easy things to ramble on about and get toneread
as town, it serves to see who takes easy bait and pushes on me and lets me live to endgame because i only trust myself to make the right call
they both work pretty well.
i can give you examples, but its not necessary. im obviously aware enough of my meta to manipulate all of this.
so please go back to vaguely distrusting me because i mostly avoid saying anything alignment indicative and seem like im standing outside the game looking in.
thats the spot.
Iceman I was going through possible scenarios. I also went through the scenario where Seppel isn't Tom's scumbuddy, I was discussing both options in weighing in on Tom.
I think you need to read my posts more carefully before weighing in on them.
Further scum tom has no reason to go soft on seppel over this. Either he never votes his buddy or he goes super hard and uses you as a scapegoat in the end. He's fine, your play was a bit silly but it discovered a town perspective so good work.
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Further scum tom has no reason to go soft on seppel over this. Either he never votes his buddy or he goes super hard and uses you as a scapegoat in the end. He's fine, your play was a bit silly but it discovered a town perspective so good work.
Fair. Your post was objectively unclear. I still disagree with your reasoning, however, as it doesn't take into account scum Tom's concern that D_V knows he's scum.
Okay, so let's play this out. Scum Tom is concerned that D_V thinks he is scum, but D_V isn't pressing him hard in topic. What does that signify for Tom? I feel as if we're not really thinking about this in a robust way and just wanting to lynch someone. I don't see the scum thought process here.
That's the important thing I stress a lot. Town can.. do some weird stuff and isn't always knowable. Scum tend to, when you look at it from their angle, be obvious. I don't see the scum angle, just a weird town one. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.
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Okay, so let's play this out. Scum Tom is concerned that D_V thinks he is scum, but D_V isn't pressing him hard in topic. What does that signify for Tom? I feel as if we're not really thinking about this in a robust way and just wanting to lynch someone. I don't see the scum thought process here.
That's the important thing I stress a lot. Town can.. do some weird stuff and isn't always knowable. Scum tend to, when you look at it from their angle, be obvious. I don't see the scum angle, just a weird town one. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.
Scum Tom thinks that I call him scum in every game so, scum Tom doesn't worry about it too much.
As Tom has repeatedly said "I call him scum in every game".
Okay, so let's play this out. Scum Tom is concerned that D_V thinks he is scum, but D_V isn't pressing him hard in topic. What does that signify for Tom? I feel as if we're not really thinking about this in a robust way and just wanting to lynch someone. I don't see the scum thought process here.
That's the important thing I stress a lot. Town can.. do some weird stuff and isn't always knowable. Scum tend to, when you look at it from their angle, be obvious. I don't see the scum angle, just a weird town one. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.
Why would scum Tom, who claims to have believed D_V initially, expect D_V to be pressing him?
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but if i was scum, i think i would have only used that to distract town if the game was going poorly for my team
so you prolly shot your wad a bit early on that read.
also didnt care for that WF vote though
tordecks is scummy too, but thats... in character for him
idk. not sure scumwildfire would really think he can get me lynched over that.
unless he actually thinks i havent made myself way less lynchable since the classic. which... would take a fairly specific team around him to not tell him.
(just kidding that's good, always care about the reasoning)
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Scum Tom can't prove that I said anything of the sort. As a scum member its an extremely risky play to make.
Sorry Chris you got it wrong this time.
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maybe itll work.
Problem with this is that it isn't a risky play because of a simple thought:
'Why the **** would anyone just randomly make this up?"
It's a too out there thought for day 1. If Tom had said you said that I would have 100% believed him. He isn't that creative. And if I believed him well, I don't need much help in painting the walls red with blood, I do a fine job of disrupting a day all by myself.
@ Tordeck - I could be, I suppose. Mind explaining where my logic breaks down?
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Sounds dangerous
@DV you should keep sending me messages though
I'll keep responding with cryptic @redacteds
It'll be dope
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Why couldn't town!tom do those things? I mean, if you were a town and found out that there's a neutral (#1) in this game who openly didn't CC another neutral (#2), would you just ignore neutral #2, even though that player's likely lying?
Personally, as town, I would have shared all of the information with the rest of the town, almost immediately. DV's misdirection would then come to light and the whole thing would fizzle out, but we would likely get some good information from the rest of the game's reactions to tom, DV, and Seppel. Tom instead choosing to hold the information close to his chest and just vote Seppel without pushing him was the least towniest way to play it.
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You told Tom you wanted to win with the scum?
If that's what you told him, I fail to see how Tom's reaction is Town? Chris, you're saying the scum response would be to "out" DV and hope to cause chaos, but I rather think the Town response to any kind of crap like that would be to come straight out with it. That is, if you actually believed him, which Tom is claiming he did. If you thought he was full of BS, then I could see possibly not saying anything about it. But where is the Town in keeping something like that a secret? The scum is that you are afraid DV has somehow pegged you as scum (because of his message), maybe you're concerned about how he knew this, and you are trying to keep it as low down as possible.
Did he or did he not say he was planning to win with the scumteam?
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I'm leaving one particularly important thing out of this post. Let's see if the people who have played with me recently can identify it. Town points to the first person who does.
I'm currently 300 posts into my re-read, so I'll post what I have now and divide this into 3 parts overall. I'm working on this for the next 3-5 hours, so I expect I'll finish today.
As I mentioned, there are little to no notes about some players up to this point but you guys deserve something from me at this point.
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Anaklusmos:
Anak's #93 feels disengaged with the happenings of the game. The response to GJ ("well I guess you're just wrong") here is pretty underwhelming, and the question about tom seems uninspired. I don't remember anything Anak has posted before this point, so he must not have been too impressive early on. I seem to recall not posting anything particularly exciting is a herald of his scum game, if ZDS's Normal is any indicator. Also, Anak calls shadow "silver", here, which also shows he's not really paying attention to solving the game.
#102 isn't much better. It just reads like Anak making an excuse not to analyze what's happened in the game thus far.
Anak's handwave of Cyan's vote feels like false bravado. Anak was super obvtown in Ace Attorney. Anak was super obvscum (in hindsight) in ZDS's Normal. This is not townAnak.
Anak still seems hung up on the Cyan vote in #251. Why?
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Axelrod:
Axelrod's opener feels completely disconnected from the happenings of RVS, so far. Can't say I'm a fan.
Still don't like Axelrod's #37. As I mentioned before, it felt like Axel was quoting somebody. When he confirmed that was not the case, I was a little baffled, since there's no way Axel actually believes that Az would intentionally derandomize somebody's alignment...right? I agree that she seems too excited to be scum, but the fact that Axel would even include that bit about Az being mean to Manders jokingly rubs me the wrong way. There's also no commentary on anything else that's happened to this point in the game. @Axelrod: What gives? I'd expect more from you, here.
And Axel's next post of some sort of substance (#50) is...mechanics talk. Again, no mention of anything actually going on in the thread. What are you doing, Axel? Did you forget how to scum?
Axel's #195 is the first reasonable thing he's posted all game.
I like that Axel basically agrees with my point about D_V empowering Seppel.
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Bur:
Bur's opening is uninspiring. It's completely devoid of feeling and his question to D_V just feels like filler.
Bur's next post, #124, is absolutely uninvested in any developments in the state of the game from the point he made his first post and here. The only thing he comments on is...Seppel's obviously false Neutral claim. Where's the scumhunting?
Then, in #128, Bur claims nothing else interesting has happened over the first 3 pages. I call bull*****. If you want something to happen, you make it happen. This is not a town mindset.
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Cyan:
Cyan's second post about not being sure if D_V's vote was serious or not screams townCyan, here. Cyan had a drop of confidence before he quit Mafia and the fact that he's still a little hesitant here is a good sign. There's no beguilement there - it's just straight-up lament.
Cyan votes Anak in his next post. My hero.
I also like that Cyan steps up to bat for Manders when Chris goes after her. As I mentioned to Manders in our 2-way Comm, I don't believe Cyan doesn't go for the easy mislynch, here, when there was already some blood in the water from TIM's push on Manders. Add this to the fact that Cyan is still voting Anak and I feel like he's being genuine, here.
Cyan believes Seppel's claim...and isn't voting the claimed Neutral. What. Who are you and what have you done with Cyan? I get that Bur is obvscum and definitely stands to be lynched here, but I did not expect you of all people to eat up Seppel's Neutral claim.
Cyan re-votes Anak for the overreaction to Cyan's initial vote on him. This is fine.
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Cythare:
That thing I said about Bur's and Axelrod's openers? I feel the same way about Cythare's, albeit both at the same time.
Cythare comments on Axelrod's useless post regarding Empowerment mechanics, and his joke response to D_V without talking about anything else in the game shows a strong disconnect from what's actually going on. I don't know if he's just busy, but I don't think this looks too great for him.
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D_V:
Early D_V feels like he's enjoying himself and trying to figure out the game, both with the tom vote and the spec ops talk. Leaning town from here.
That said, D_V's early vote on Bur feels like a false "gotcha". If he's scumreading Bur, it shouldn't be for anything to do with the Bur post he quoted, here. I like that he's on Bur on principle, but...I'm uncertain because of the vote justification, in spite of the early town lean, here.
Good vibes for the tom vote in #92
D_V still pushing after tom is good in #123, I think.
D_V /barns my Bur read and Cyan's (and now my) Anak read. I'm a sucker for people who ride my coattails. That said, I absolutely DON'T understand his reason for the tom Unvote. It seems totally out of place and not based on anything that I can see that would necessitate tom being town.
I don't like that D_V empowers a claimed Neutral, here. Particularly when he says he believes Seppel's claim.
I think his reasoning in #210 for doing so is lacking. "I knew I wasn't empowering scum...unless Seppel is scum, and then I am." Why not just empower a freaking townread, here?
D_V's interactions with GJ seem organic in the 260's-270's.
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Gentleman Johnny:
GJ's opening trio of posts feels like he's excited to be in the game, which, while uncharacteristic for a town GJ on Day 1, I believe he mentioned something recently about changing up his playstyle a bit? Anyway, I don't see anything particularly wrong with this.
I also like that he seems eager to interact with people in #32.
I also like that he +towns Manders and +scums Axelrod for #37 and #38.
I don't understand why GJ thinks TIM doesn't look good from the exchange with Manders. It's a perfectly reasonably line of questioning if you don't know Manders terribly well. @GJ: I'm curious, though - what about Anak's early play reminded you of Too Many Cops Mafia?
The way GJ develops his read on Axel in #139 feels organic and fluid. I like that he reconsidered the stance, here, even though I don't necessarily agree with the outcome of his read on Axel being town. His reasoning regarding Manders is also solid and I unless scumGJ is trying to pocket Manders, I don't see him stepping up for her, here. That said, I don't believe he believes Seppel is a Neutral.
GJ's series of posts leading up to the #240 mark are a little underwhelming considering 100 posts happened between them and his last post.
That said, his exchange with tom afterwards seems relaxed and like tom's vote on him doesn't bother him at all. That suggests one of two things to me. What are those things? I'm gonna be cagey, here.
Still rolling my eyes at "I don't think Seppel has ever lied about being a Neutral before."
Still rolling my eyes at the Iso scumread. The exchange with D_V seems organic, though.
I don't like GJ's complete and total emotional meltdown towards the end of the #290's.
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Manders:
Manders is town. She's excited to be back and playing Mafia on MTGS. Her opener shows no hint of nervousness or reservedness that I'd expect a rusty scumManders to display, here.
Manders's reaction to Axel's weird post reflects my own thoughts on the matter.
That said, I can't help but feel that #40 is an overreaction to people calling her town. Even though she may have been a big Nightkill target in the heydays, does she sincerely think she'll be an early Nightkill choice over, say, TheIceMan? Or Cyan? Or Axelrod? Or even myself?
#45 is where the large amount of suspicion over Manders RE: her approach to Axelrod comes into play. I've already given my take on this and I think it makes her more town.
I don't like that she pretends(?) not to know that saying "I HAVE AN OPINION ON THIS PLAYER FOR REASONS I WILL BRING UP LATER IF RELEVANT" is scummy. Wasn't this a popular scum tactic back in the day?
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Seppel:
God dammit, Seppel.
I believe Seppel could have a list of possible passive abilities. Do I believe he's a Neutral? Still no.
I would really like for Seppel to start playing Mafia (as of #294).
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shadowlancerx:
I almost forgot to comment on this guy because all of his posts have said absolutely nothing. It doesn't feel like he's trying to get involved in the game so much as it feels like he's trying to coast by. (Note: This is as of post #200.)
shadow posts in #253 to say "still not posting kthxbai". Sigh.
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Sir Chris:
Chris's insta-troll of Vaimes is amusing but I don't think it necessarily makes him town. That said, I've also mentioned that I think Chris's early approach to Manders was a reasonable town approach to the situation given his lack of experience with her.
I like that Chris also noticed D_V calling tom scum twice as though he didn't do so the first time, but I don't think there's any malicious intent behind D_V's actions, here.
god dammit Chris why are you empowering Seppel
Chris's analysis of Cyan x Manders seems reasonable.
Chris calling out tom is a good look.
That said, Chris's approach to Axelrod feels off. Maybe because it seems largely emotionally driven, but it feels out of place as compared to the rest of Chris's play so far. I think this can reasonably be written off as "Chris was legitimately irritated at Axelrod's jab OoG."
Hey, Chris - #286, you mention that it seems likely that someone calling Manders town early on is scum, but I don't think you ever follow through on that. Can you do that, now?
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TheIceMan:
TIM's a strong player, to my recollection, and I don't think I've played with him since Starcraft Mafia during the Mason debacle with Artifice and Arcadic. I could be misremembering, though. I like his call on D_V for the weird Bur vote, but I don't like that it resulted in a vote because it feels like it doesn't take D_V's RVS prior to that into account. That said, maybe I'm just more in-tune with how D_V has been playing as of late due to the amount of shared games, lately.
TIM mindmelds with me in #41 and #42. Easy town read.
I think TIM's approach to the Manders stuff is a reasonable line to take if he doesn't remember how Manders plays. @TIM: I believe shadow asked this already, but what's your experience with playing with Manders?
Good feels from TIM calling out Bur's garbage 2nd post.
Props to TIM for also calling out D_V's weird Unvote.
TIM's re-read seems fine and I like that it ends in a tom vote.
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tomsloger:
I like tom's confidence in his early Vaimes read.
That said, his follow-up is extremely weak. #47-#49 aren't really saying much of anything; his question to me is useless, I don't understand his reply to Anak, his clarification about his Vaimes read should have come like 40 posts ago since nobody is really paying attention to Spec Ops, and I don't see any actual questioning or scumhunting going on in the game thread. Dislike.
I don't understand the GJ vote. @tom: Explain, por favor. Why announce that it was a pressure vote? Why did you believe GJ needed to be pressured at this point?
oh my god. tom what are you doing (#111)
tom's drive-by post in #120 just...isn't doing anything. He calls D_V town-ish but then says "but maybe not", and then he calls Chris town and says "but maybe not".
tom then talks about Seppel and asks randomly about GJ, who hasn't posted in a while. What?
to tom drive-by discrediting the Bur wagon. There's no feeling here, whatsoever.
Then in #174 he just sort of says "BUT WAS THAT REALLY WHAT I WAS DOING, ISO? WAS IT?" Yes, tom. It was.
Super dislike his follow-up to my question - if he wants a better lynch than Bur, he should be pushing to create one instead of complaining about the lack of one.
"i wanna see other people's waves"
I don't understand tom's fascination with GJ. He was already voting him, if I'm not mistaken, and then he votes him again? tom is obviously not paying attention to what he's doing in this game.
tom finally actually engages GJ. The [redacted] stuff is driving me up the wall because I can't figure out what the hell he's talking about.
tom's reaction to TIM's re-read is uh, what? I don't understand anything tom is trying to get at, here. It's like he's trying to defend himself but then sort of falls short of the mark.
I'm still not understanding tom's GJ boner. He's passively pushing the GJ wagon in #292 and hasn't actually explained to anyone why they should be voting for GJ.
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Tordeck:
Tordeck's opener about Cyan seems reasonable. I don't expect scum would want to un-poison the waters, but stranger things have happened.
Tordeck makes another post...and all he does is ask Manders if she's town. What.
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Wildfire393:
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The GJ way path to no lynching:
Considering you hadn't posted before the 300th post of the game...
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Oh. Right.
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Again, I ask, why if you believed D_V as town would you out D_V instead of going for Seppel and seeing what happens there? It is a good play and Tom appears to have made it.
"i want scum to win and I know seppel, the claimed neutral, is lying."
Great time to kill Seppel. A scum Tom never has a reason to vote Seppel there. He wouldn't care if Seppel was lying.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
You don't think it's unusual at all to see a list of comments about players that includes a name with literally zero under it?
Also, "going for Seppel and seeing what happens there" is one thing, and is a fine, townie thing to do. Putting his vote on Seppel without any attempt to actually make a wagon happen there, while also not saying anything about the guy who literally claimed he wanted to win with the scum, is not.
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Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
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he just claimed and shouted that i was scum a bunch
closest he came was telling me to let my buddies know
Also, why didn't you at least out DV if he stated that he's willing to work with mafia in order to win?
/s
I'm going to take a nap and get back to it since I've been at this for a few hours relentlessly and I had to take care of a drunk and vomiting person until 7 in the morning.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
PM 1: doesnt know what "my buddy seppel" is doing. claimed neutral. says to let my buddies know.
PM 2: says seppel is mislynchable later, leave him alone
PM 3: asks why im bussing johnny
PM 4: asks why i havent outed him to the town for the free mislynch
PM 5: claimed (fake) wincon. it was gaining empowerment (which still makes more sense as a neutral role than seppels, as its dealing with a main game mechanic. but setup gaming blah blah blah)
PM 6: tells me to convince him not to out me (lol)
PM 7: tells me to give up and scumclaim. asks if i really believe hes neutral
this is all paraphrased, obviously.
Cool. I'm not the only one then.
Did you consider using it on DV, btw?
@DV: Want to confirm/deny what tom claimed to be your PM's contents?
Why?
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Anaklusmos:
462 posts into the game and Anak states only the incredibly obvious. What?
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Axelrod:
At this point (#339), I'd really like Axelrod to give his insight in the game. I think he's town and I liked his observation about the Seppel/Untargetable thing, but it's unfortunate that Axelrod isn't putting some oomph into this game as of yet.
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Bur:
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Cyan:
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Cythare:
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D_V:
#436 "hurr durr people need to post more so I can get reads!" Really?
...and then you Unvote him based on TIM's post? Come on, dude. Are you really trying, here? The timing on this is so forced, and the sneaky Unvote way earlier in the game along with this gives me vibes that you aren't really sure how you need to be voting in this game.
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Gentleman Johnny:
GJ not having any solid town reads 309 posts into the game...actually seems normal for him, oddly enough.
I think GJ swinging a bit at WF to see what gives in #420 is fine.
what the hell is Thunderoming?
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Manders:
I like Manders's wariness of me attempting to pocket her in #319. The rest of the reads seem reasonable for her to have, though I'm disappointed that she didn't find Bur as scummy as I did early on.
While I'm annoyed that Manders changed her vote in a matter of a single post, I don't disagree with either of her votes, so, that's a thing, I guess.
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Seppel:
go away Seppel
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shadowlancerx:
I know GJ said reason-less reads were fine for this exercise, but I'd really like to know the reasons behind shadow's top 3 T/S list in #311.
I don't like that shadow basically says, "neener neener I'm not going to post and you can't do anything about it" in #343 to Manders. Like...it's Mafia. Play the game. Additionally, I don't like the distaste for aggression, but maybe that's because I'm an aggressive player, myself. The follow-up exchange with Manders feels forced, and the vote is absolutely over-the-top.
Wait, what? Bur, tom, and Anak are your top scumreads but you're voting Manders? I like that they're your top scum reads, but please resolve this cognitive dissonance for me.
I think that shadow took Manders's joke way too personally but oddly I think it makes him more town that he's getting butthurt about it. Scum don't usually push people for OoG reasons (unless their name is Wrath_of_Dog).
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Sir Chris:
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TheIceMan:
#387, another mindmeld.
I chortled.
Okay, I don't think I need to comment on TIM any more. He's pretty obviously town and I can comfortably write him off as such.
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tomsloger:
lolwut? tom thinks Anak is town (#302)? What a joke. And then tom says he's unsure of anything except Vaimes being scum...and VAIMES ISN'T EVEN IN THE MAIN GAME.
Then in #303, tom states he doesn't understand what GJ is doing...yet he's voting for him? And then he backpedals on his stance on Anak and Bur. "Well I guess they COULD be scum but if they're town hoo boy I sure want to analyze those wagons!!!" tom, could you sound any more mechanical, here? You're clearly just going through the motions at this point.
I would like an explanation for #316.
Oh. I guess #327 explains it. Wait. So you're in contact with someone who counterclaimed Seppel as a Neutral? Is that what I'm reading, here? Why would that merit a vote on to Seppel? And again, if you don't like that people aren't posting content, why aren't you prompting them to do so, yourself? "I'm playing reactionary" is a garbage explanation. Also, you literally say you don't have confident reads and then in your next paragraph you say that you have town reads and a strong scumread. tom, what the **** are you doing?
I'd like it if tom interacted with people that were actually in the game (#374) instead of just the spectators and his "special friend".
I wish tom's #401 actually said anything.
#404, you don't honestly know why not pushing for reads is a scummy thing? Am I missing something, here?
And then you piggyback off of TIM and call Wildfire scum? Why did it take someone else pointing out Wildfire's insanity for you to jump on him?
I don't understand why you care so much about the spectators.
I also don't understand why you think your posts are "spitting gold" when you've very clearly stated that you don't have a lot of solid reads. What?
Oh my god. I think I caught something beautiful, here. In #475, tom asks Chris, "so why am I scum if Wildfire is town?" But wasn't TIM the one who said that WF was more likely to be town for his mistakes? And tom is riding off of making such a mistake in a hope to be townread for it. Whaaat.
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Tordeck:
Of all the reasons you could be voting for Wildfire, you choose a policy lynch over something WF was clearly misremembering?
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Wildfire393:
I'm thoroughly unimpressed by your analysis in #320. Are we reading the same game? Also dislike the "now to actually look at my role PM" tacked on at the end. Feels fake.
Your follow-up on Manders ("tells me I'm on the right track") feels like something scum would say to follow up a vote they thought was easy. Like, where's the solving here?
Calling Manders "Manders Busy" is hilarious and also not inaccurate to some degree, but it feels a bit dishonest since...y'know...holiday weekend. Why is Manders the only person you're calling out on this?
lolwut? You think Anak has good content (#378)? Please tell me more about this. Please also explain how D_V's behavior aside from the Seppel stuff is indicative of scum.
Okay, so the explanation for D_V is given...but it feels like totally unbased paranoia. Which actually gives me pause, because uh, that makes me think you're more likely to be town, here. Crackpot theories like the D_V/Seppel thing usually come from town that think they see something that nobody else does. I'm hesitant to fully call you town after this, WF, because the rest of your play has been utterly wtf-inducing, but maybe our wavelengths are just that far off, this game? But then that makes me think you're scum again, because obviously I'm always right, which means other townies should NOT be that far off from me in their own worldview. ****, I'm conflicted.
Can confirm that WF sucks at Day 1's.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
As scum I would throw that information out there, and let the town fight over whether or not they believed it. Using that to disrupt the game.
Believing you enough to vote Seppel doesn't really change it. As a neutral survivor who you want to work with is something that can change many time to best suit your needs, it's not like you claimed scum godfather and he sat on that.
I don't see how this makes Tom scum, and I see many ways he could be town, so that's what I am going with.
Iso your post looks like a lot of work, appreciate that. Parsing through what it means and what to gleam from it still
seems smart.
#878 (and, to a lesser extent, #880) is what Tom has been doing all game. If he agrees that Seppel's "scum-tell" is stupid, why play the other side and ask if I'm scum? What does that question even accomplish anyway? It's quite tricky to gauge because Tom claims that he hedges his bets and avoids expressing strong opinions as an anti-meta play.
Then things kick off with D_V's #889. My initial thoughts are as follows:
If Tom is scum:
D_V isn't scum, almost for sure. I mean this whole thing seems like a pretty townie play anyways (maybe not 100% thought through, but it's a weird mechanic and seems difficult to use well). I think the first thing that I'd think, as scum, is not "Oh, D_V got lucky and guessed my alignment, I'll just play it cool," but rather "How the hell does D_V know I'm scum?" If D_V does know my alignment, I want him/her to keep it out of the thread at all costs. This means doing enough to keep him/her happy. If D_V guessed my alignment, I don't want to confirm that guess. This means putting on a townie face in the thread. In other words, I have to be townie enough that D_V might think I'm town, and scummy enough that D_V might stay "on my side." (I don't think I give much thought to "working with" D_V, it's far too risky.) Honestly, this looks a lot like what Tom did, what with the "@redacted" posts, Seppel vote (but no serious push), and such.
If Tom is town:
If I were town, my first reaction would have been "What kind of gambit is this?" My next step would depend on my confidence in my own abilities. If I didn't believe in my ability to potentially extricate myself from suspicion later on, I'd just dump the info in the thread. If I thought I could get away with it, I'd play along enough to extract some potentially valuable information.
I really do think Tom's plays look like a scum mindset. This is definitely very complicated logic though, so I'm open to being convinced otherwise.
I don't agree with much of the logic in Sir Chris' #902. It completely misses that D_V singled out Tom. If Tom is scum, he'd have to be extremely nervous about that. Can't see him possibly outing D_V right away, it's a very risky play (even more so if he "likes to prop himself up"). And then #903 is a possible slip. Who said anything about Seppel being scum? D_V made up that Tom and Seppel were buddies, but there's nothing to suggest that Seppel is actually scum even if Tom is. So, yeah, Sir Chris may be scum. At the very least he's making it up as he goes along.
I don't like the way Tom goes about defending himself. It's just designed to create uncertainty. Also note #912, which is designed to remind the town that he was breadcrumbing D_V's PMs.
In #917 Axelrod has a similar reaction to mine.
#919 and #939 are Iso's catchup posts. I need to leave these for the moment as I want to see the conclusions before sinking a lot of time into evaluating the content. It's important to read these carefully, though, as it's pretty easy for good scum players to dump a lot of analysis into the thread and expect most players' eyes to glaze over. I'll do the easy bit and respond to the questions, though. I'm pretty sure Starcraft was the last mafia game I've played, period. That was the one where I invested tons of time into D1 and then got promptly NK'd? As for Manders, I've played with her before, maybe a couple times even. Honestly it's been a while so I don't really remember people's playstyles.
It's then interesting that Bur chooses this moment to make more posts than I think he's done for the rest of the game, combined. Somehow it's really important for him/her to figure out what's going on.
I think you need to read my posts more carefully before weighing in on them.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
so dv yelling that im scum is, basically, just what DV does in my experience.
i voted seppel saying i had reason to believe that he was lying.
yes, that was a breadcrumb about the DV claim. as should be fairly obvious now.
but no i didnt push him. i dont think fake claiming is any kind of scumtell for seppel
as for the way i defend myself...
i kind of dont
like, im never gonna be a "ra ra im town" kind of guy
if im gonna address arguments against me at all, im just gonna say why they are wrong or why they are meaningless
that thing i said about keeping myself in the middle of the poe is a real goal i have, as both alignments.
as scum, it serves me to not be seen as a nightkill target and lets me have easy things to ramble on about and get toneread
as town, it serves to see who takes easy bait and pushes on me and lets me live to endgame because i only trust myself to make the right call
they both work pretty well.
i can give you examples, but its not necessary. im obviously aware enough of my meta to manipulate all of this.
so please go back to vaguely distrusting me because i mostly avoid saying anything alignment indicative and seem like im standing outside the game looking in.
thats the spot.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
FYI.
That's the important thing I stress a lot. Town can.. do some weird stuff and isn't always knowable. Scum tend to, when you look at it from their angle, be obvious. I don't see the scum angle, just a weird town one. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Scum Tom thinks that I call him scum in every game so, scum Tom doesn't worry about it too much.
As Tom has repeatedly said "I call him scum in every game".