Oh OH oh oh oh oh oh oh, we prolly aren't killing DotA. Silver is the only listed replacement, and unless I'm completely wrong on his range, he's gonna dazzle
hi drunk mindreaver
i realize im probably talking to sober mindreaver, but i guess you can answer for him
what was your read on dota as of this post?
because i feel youre thinking more about his lynchability compared to silver's
than about the alignment of the slot
and i dont like it
if you cannot answer for him please drink until you can
tia
Gotcha.
Well, TBH, I didn't have much of a read on DotA, and still don't. He was drinking the same koolaid you all were with Shadow. So that's null. But then again, he was pushing zomg, which I thought was a stretch, especially since I'm townleaning on him.
My statement about lynching DotA VS lynching silver is really not about which person was more likely to get lynched. That's reading into it a bit I think. I was trying to express that I simply didn't see a slam dunk case on DotA, and without that, we'd end up exactly where we are. Silver is a good player would defend his slot. He's certainly done exactly that. Just like I said about the Shadow case, show me the evidence. Right now this whole thread is so focused on reaction to stimuli, instead of looking at how people are voting and moving around and pushing arguments. I think that is much more important. It was why I was leery (and still am) of Rodemy, despite having "flawless" reactions thus far. He's pushed agendas. So have you Tom. I'm also worried about those coasting without doing anything (myself included to some degree, although now that the weekend is over and trigger happy is over as well, I should be moe engaged).
And I get that you're "solving the game". And that has merit. It's great. Unless you're just going from whatever convenient wagon to another. Most of these pushes have been BS. What info would you get from shadow's flip? You've got a wagon full of people who think exactly the same thing about his reaction to no-lynch. And some others that feel the no-lynch reaction isn't enough on it's own. Those are both reasonable places for town and scum to be. It tells you literally nothing about me, or silver, or rodemy, or anyone right now. Nothing. For instance, using me as an example:
Was scum!Hunt bussing hard and it got too close for noob scum!Mindreaver's taste?
Did town!Hunt catch scum!Shadow for a legit reason and town!Mindreaver just doesn't agree?
Is shadow town and town!hunt was just wrong? Was scum!Hunt making up a case to mislynch?
Those all seem possible, and I don't see how you could take info like a shadow flip, and immediately know my alignment.
Finally, @tom: why appeal to seppel to vote with you? Is there some reason you had to talk to him specifically?
Well, TBH, I didn't have much of a read on DotA, and still don't. He was drinking the same koolaid you all were with Shadow. So that's null. But then again, he was pushing zomg, which I thought was a stretch, especially since I'm townleaning on him.
My statement about lynching DotA VS lynching silver is really not about which person was more likely to get lynched. That's reading into it a bit I think. I was trying to express that I simply didn't see a slam dunk case on DotA, and without that, we'd end up exactly where we are. Silver is a good player would defend his slot. He's certainly done exactly that. Just like I said about the Shadow case, show me the evidence. Right now this whole thread is so focused on reaction to stimuli, instead of looking at how people are voting and moving around and pushing arguments. I think that is much more important. It was why I was leery (and still am) of Rodemy, despite having "flawless" reactions thus far. He's pushed agendas. So have you Tom. I'm also worried about those coasting without doing anything (myself included to some degree, although now that the weekend is over and trigger happy is over as well, I should be moe engaged).
And I get that you're "solving the game". And that has merit. It's great. Unless you're just going from whatever convenient wagon to another. Most of these pushes have been BS. What info would you get from shadow's flip? You've got a wagon full of people who think exactly the same thing about his reaction to no-lynch. And some others that feel the no-lynch reaction isn't enough on it's own. Those are both reasonable places for town and scum to be. It tells you literally nothing about me, or silver, or rodemy, or anyone right now. Nothing. For instance, using me as an example:
Was scum!Hunt bussing hard and it got too close for noob scum!Mindreaver's taste?
Did town!Hunt catch scum!Shadow for a legit reason and town!Mindreaver just doesn't agree?
Is shadow town and town!hunt was just wrong? Was scum!Hunt making up a case to mislynch?
Those all seem possible, and I don't see how you could take info like a shadow flip, and immediately know my alignment.
Finally, @tom: why appeal to seppel to vote with you? Is there some reason you had to talk to him specifically?
how is it not about which person is more likely to be lynched?
like, thats in your explanation.
silver is harder to lynch than dota. thats fact.
what i dont get is why that even matters if you dont have an opinion on the slot
i disagree completely that having an agenda is a scummy trait.
obviously.
since i always have an agenda.
but ok
are you honestly telling me that flips dont mean anything?
but since youve finally answered:
the reason id rather lynch silver first is scumsilver points me squarely at shadow. for reasons that have been gone over.
in the IMO less likely event of town silver, part of the problems with shadow go away and i would probably start with you for that tmi.
a shadow flip gives me less to work with, but there is still plenty of info to be gained.
and i want everyone to vote with me
seppel included
@Shadow:
Rodemy's progression usually doesn't make sense, (at least in the games of his I've read) but I'll try to trace it.
#51 is great follow up on his clara read.
#72 begins his Shockwave read.
Next few posts he asks Seppel why DoTA is scum, says your 86 is bad, complains about tom being low effort and pushing wagons.
#104 says Huntzilla is overreacting to your progression. Follows up with Huntz and Clara on his naughty list.
Current reads - Shockwave, Huntz, Clara possibly scum.
#117 votes Huntz, tries to start a wagon. Doesn't like the DoTA wagon because it's super fast (yeah boi) and he liked his vote on Clara.
#123 likes Huntz scum read of you more than your scum read of Huntz, but doesn't want to let Huntz off the hook for the reaction test. Also you went after tom and Vaimes and he didn't like that either.
#125 he like your rebuttal to Huntz, thinks both of you might be town.
This just looks like waffling. He doesn't know which of you is right, so maybe you're both wrong.
So now i can't take back my vote on shadow because "oh ***** he is very scum keel naow plz" will happen
I am legit worried. Shadow screamed scum to me. But theb he makes very tiny points that make me question that read as well.
Like, him calling me out as scum makes me want to re read him? Is that normal? Maybe i am drilling down a townie and poor guy will get mislynched.
Or maybe i am actually right in my scum read and he is just ****in with my head.
Hete is my free flow thought process, from brain to keyboard
It's odd that shadow is calling me scum for calling him scum. Yes, maybe calling him out on taking a step back was low.
But hunts ideas were so good. Why worry about what a no lynch does? Math does nothing. Focusing on his rvs no lynch vote is just.. dumb. So dumb. Ugggggghhhh.
But shadow says he was honestly confused.
And now i am scum with DoTA in his mind.
Which is weird because i was just trying to make sense of him and hunts banter.
I am just gonna keep my vote and hope for the best.
I think i am overthinking.
I sided with hunt, i will stick with hunt. In hunt i trust.
****.
**** ****.
You better be scum or imma feel bad.
Feeling bad is bad
Like. I just don't see scum!Rodemy faking this post. It's so waffly and weird. It does nothing. Well, except make me town read him which I guess isn't nothing, but like. What's the point of the post for scum!Rodemy? What was his agenda? I don't see one.
He goes onto Vaimes because Vaimes is on me because DoTA was scummy even though I'm obvtown.
Then goes onto Shockwave because he likes my case. (Not because he's still trying to lynch Vaimes. He wants to lynch both of them.)
Then he goes back to pushing you... but like. He really thinks you're scum. And he even says his scumreads are Vaimes/You/Shockwave.
I dunno. He reads like town to me. His progression is fine. The worst thing is the flip he does from Huntz onto you earlier but I can see him rereading and flipping on you like that. I don't agree with him, but it doesn't make me want him dead.
I'm interested to see his PBPA on you, though. I don't think you're scum but it should give me a better idea where his head is at, at least.
It has nothing to do with who is more likely. I wasn't saying "gee I wish DotA would leave and Silver come in, because that would be great"
I was dealing with reality tom. Silver was the only other replacement. DotA might have been a suspect, but Silver has the ability to come in and change that read very quickly. Or at least inject enough WIFOM to stall the wagon. I wasn't comparing DotA staying forever with Silver replacing in. I was discussing the topic. Dota is a fine player and wouldn't have just laid down and died. But a replacement of a capable player puts some "oh geez I was reading Dota one way and now Silver is doing something different and I don't know what to think" into the thread.
That's my argument. Not that either one was more likely to get lynched then the other. That a capable replacement on the top counterwagon to shadow, throws a money wrench in that wagon.
Okay, can someone link me a game of Rodemy where he acts similar to how he has been? Because apparently I'm just going to continually get meta reads on this.
@Mindreaver: He's not saying we're buddies. He's saying you have TMI on my slot because you said I was going to dazzle like you knew I was town.
I had thought that too, and would be inclined to agree with him if he was being reasonable.
But he's doubling down on me and shadow being scum together instead of thinking about what it means if you know I'm town.
That's what makes me think that he's trying to chain your mislynch after mine.
lol
ive just realized that both of our primary reasons for thinking mind might be town are because the other is scum.
thats fun
only i had to push you to say that
and youre scumreading me for it
lol
ive just realized that both of our primary reasons for thinking mind might be town are because the other is scum.
thats fun
only i had to push you to say that
and youre scumreading me for it
seems legit
I baited it out of you, you didn't push me. But if you're town, we'll have a laugh in post game over it. And agree to never do it again.
@Mindreaver: He's not saying we're buddies. He's saying you have TMI on my slot because you said I was going to dazzle like you knew I was town.
I had thought that too, and would be inclined to agree with him if he was being reasonable.
But he's doubling down on me and shadow being scum together instead of thinking about what it means if you know I'm town.
That's what makes me think that he's trying to chain your mislynch after mine.
But me saying "Dazzle" doesn't mean that I actually think that slot is anything. It means that I thought you'd come in, make a persuasive argument, and the wagon would stall. Nowhere in my post did I say "oh, didn't you guys know, dota was town and now you'll see it more clearly". That's bollocks.
Well, I thought Huntz was townie and you've been ok. I don't only think you're town because Tom is scum - I think Tom is scum because of the way he's handling what he thinks is TMI. Instead of, like, wondering if I might be town after all or something, he just... digs further into his scumread and tries to use it to lynch me. It's an "I'm gonna lynch this guy" mindset. Not a town mindset.
shadow, why do you feel the need to vote conservatively? What are, in your opinion, the pros and cons of holding your vote vs. voting freely and often?
@tom: I don't believe that. If you were town you would be trying to figure out my alignment. I don't think town!you says "Mindreaver's post looks like TMI on Silver's slot being town, but oh well. He's scum so it doesn't matter." Combined with the sketchy 180 you did on his slot, I'm pretty good lynching you. Not sure if I can swing it, but hey. I'm going to try.
@Mindreaver: I asked him about his shadow read and he hasn't posted anything since then. As of his most recent post I think he might be town - his problems with Vaimes' handling of the Shockwave case are +town and his progression is ok. The only things making me unsure about him are the way his Rodemy townread is slipping (why?) and the fact that he wants to lynch shadow, because I'm convinced shadow's a mislynch.
shadow, why do you feel the need to vote conservatively? What are, in your opinion, the pros and cons of holding your vote vs. voting freely and often?
I want my vote to mean something. If I am more conservative, that means when I vote on someone, I am telling them that I don't think their behavior is something I expect from town. Additionally, I don't ever feel good about super early scum reads, and I'd rather let a game develop a little bit before I actively accuse someone. That is something I expect will change as I get better, but hasn't yet.
Somewhat related, I hate accidental hammers, they really mess with the game flow as well as make it more common for scum to use it as a tool to their advantage. Being deliberate with my vote helps this problem at least tangentially.
Cons would be being seen as not putting my money where my mouth is, as well as the potential to not be applying pressure on a correct read early, allowing them to get their footing.
shadow, why do you feel the need to vote conservatively? What are, in your opinion, the pros and cons of holding your vote vs. voting freely and often?
I want my vote to mean something. If I am more conservative, that means when I vote on someone, I am telling them that I don't think their behavior is something I expect from town. Additionally, I don't ever feel good about super early scum reads, and I'd rather let a game develop a little bit before I actively accuse someone. That is something I expect will change as I get better, but hasn't yet.
Somewhat related, I hate accidental hammers, they really mess with the game flow as well as make it more common for scum to use it as a tool to their advantage. Being deliberate with my vote helps this problem at least tangentially.
Cons would be being seen as not putting my money where my mouth is, as well as the potential to not be applying pressure on a correct read early, allowing them to get their footing.
I've played a few games here and there. Consider me moderately experienced though site-specific terminology can throw me for a loop sometimes!
Question for you, in return: There is a player that has seemed a little too self-aware for my liking thus far. Can you identify that player, and give preliminary thoughts on what it means for their alignment?
Ugh... Not sure I can tell what alignment that post is supposed to come from. I'm leaning town on it, as while it is poking at a player, it's promoting discussion and trying to get you to look for this read she(?) has.
No one feels more shame for that loss than me, I promise.
If this is in reference to Off the grid 2, then I must say I feel the the shame of that loss pretty darn hard too.
Also Vaimes, are you over 100 posts in your mentor chat yet
Serious question, can someone give me the math for a no lynch in a 12 person game like this, or at the very least can we get some opinions on the subject? My gut again tells me it's a bad idea, but I'd rather see the odds.
@rodemy: this early in the game I'm more inclined to believe Clara's question is non alignment indicative, it seems more like an icebreaker to an early game than anything else, though I do think you're probably right it could have been done differently.
unvote vote Kosa you can't have my tears.
Why are you so concerned with a no Lynch?
Also"My gut says it's a bad idea" Then why do it, or even tell us about your gut being a bad idea?
No Lynch: Why would we do that? I mean this is an open setup and there is the 1-shot Vig, but shouldn't we narrow the pool before bullets fly? Though do admit at least it would put us in the more favorable odd-number pools...
Clara: ...Seriously, answer.
Shock asks about the no lynch. And then the vig.
Does no lynch mean we use the vig shot instead? Never actully dealt with one.
Even so, you change your mind at the end about it. and then jump on the "clara wagon" without a vote
@Seppel: I'm not ignoring the math, I just want you to come out and say it instead of smiley face it away.
...Plus it's been 10 years for me since high school so my figuring statistics is a bit rusty.
With no lynch:
9.09% chance of random player being who the Vig shoots, doc has a 1 in 11 chance of protecting who the Vig will shoot, but have to account for protecting the Vig (no affect on Vig shot) and no self protection...
Obviously it's a reaction test, that's why I called you out on it. And also why I asked for the math.
@zomg: You're stance doesn't make any sense, you're voting me for what? Being really good at mislynching you? I said I was sorry.
@seppel: Why is Dota scum? That naked read doesn't really do much for us.
I pointed out that I thought this was bad, and i am pointing it out again.
I don't like the mindset of "Of course i knew"
If he knew it was a test. He would have known how Hunt would have reacted (voting him and calling him scum) yet he still did it.
(---)
Hunt:+1
Shadow: -6
Shockwave: -7
DoTA: -1
Shadow then tells me of his progression. Which further states that if he knew what he was making Hunt think he was scum (remember, he knew it was a reaction test) Why would he be concerned with the No Lynch?
Serious question, can someone give me the math for a no lynch in a 12 person game like this, or at the very least can we get some opinions on the subject? My gut again tells me it's a bad idea, but I'd rather see the odds.
@rodemy: this early in the game I'm more inclined to believe Clara's question is non alignment indicative, it seems more like an icebreaker to an early game than anything else, though I do think you're probably right it could have been done differently.
unvote vote Kosa you can't have my tears.
Then, instead of doing the work himself, Shadow decides to put it out to the thread, therefore not having to "own" his feelings/reaction to the material. This is a classic scum move, because if it falls to pieces later they can say "I was only following what {they} said!"
A single successful lynch/kill moves lylo to d4
A second pushes to final 3 on d5
A third wins the game
No lynching doesn't seem to do a whole lot
D3 is still lylo if the D2 lynch and vig shot aren't good, just at 5-3 instead of 4-3
No lynching only gives us an extra day if the doc successfully stops a kill or the mafia RB stops the vig
Which is pretty long odds realistically...
I'm not really seeing the benefit
Tom's love of math skews this read a little, but generally speaking scum love to do these little tricks because it appears helpful to the town. So whenever crunching numbers comes up, or vote analysis, or other "helpful" tasks to appear genuine, scum jump to the table. Scum points for Tomsloger here. It's a thing, ask Seppel.
Obviously it's a reaction test, that's why I called you out on it. And also why I asked for the math.
@zomg: You're stance doesn't make any sense, you're voting me for what? Being really good at mislynching you? I said I was sorry.
@seppel: Why is Dota scum? That naked read doesn't really do much for us.
Here is the classic scum backpedal and "I knew it all along!" Also, you didn't really call me out. You tried to politely ask why. As if to NOT PUSH TOO HARD. Because you knew it was a bogus jump.
Serious question, can someone give me the math for a no lynch in a 12 person game like this, or at the very least can we get some opinions on the subject? My gut again tells me it's a bad idea, but I'd rather see the odds.
Then I realized that a 12 person game might change the math.
@Shadowlancerx: Using my mentor chat, and having a talk with my mentor about how he caught me as scum in another game.
Other than that OoG stuff catching my interest.
...And I'll add, I will be damn and pleasantly surprised if I land on the good side of a winning town circle forming!
Why are you having a chat about be caught as scum if you are town?
Anyway,
Scum team = Shadow, Vaimes, Tomsloger...
GG let's go home.
(+++++)
Hunt:+6
Shadow: -9
Shockwave: -7
DoTA: -1
And then hunt replied to my question with such townosity.
At this point, everything said is null.
Hunt was town.
Shadow was scum.
He did a downward spiral and then left.
Then i got pissed and left.
Looking at it again i am confident in that read.
Shockwave had a few fluff posts but the ones i analyzed and holy ***** is he scum too.
That is gonna be the end of that. 3 pages in and i think 2 people are already scum.. Clara is.. Gone. And i still think that was a bad post. So.. replacement needs to town the **** up.
unvote vote shadow
Will also vote for shock if needed
DoTA was scummy in the beginning. but then silver came in with these lovely posts. Not gonna lie, i was skimming them before. But lets do a quick analysis of SASSFEST 2016
DoTA Was at 4 votes (including mine) when Silver came in.
With. *******. Vigor.
Still disagreeing with the Shadow read though.
Scumbuddy protecting?
Not good Town?
I want to go with the second one, but maybe that is what they wanna do.
Vaimes is going ham on Silver.
I say we start with Shadow.
Silver can stay and play.
Clara is still on my list of possible scum and so is shock. I wanna be sure i know which one is scum before i continue my reads.
Until then, Silver is town and will not accept the lynch. (p.s. I don't hate you for your Tom vote, but i am not going for it toDay.)
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Okay, so Rodemy might legitimately be town. I just finished Big Red Button and I found a bunch of stuff that helps that case, but the most interesting of it is this quote: "Rodemy has gone from productive obvtown to the indecipherable spaz I'm accustomed to. If my count is correct he has called 6 different players scum in the last two pages. I don't trust his judgment whatsoever."
And that is almost identical to what I got on him about.
Ugh.
So I'm going to reread this game again, because if he's not scum, then that leaves me needing to reassess where we stand.
@Seppel: you are the only other person who thinks (thought?) that Rodemy was scum. Would you highlight the differences for me clearly? I know you said earlier it's cause he's playing better, could you go into detail for me?
_________________________________________________
@Rodemy: How exactly are you determining you math on that rating system? Also, why ignore my posts in the second half of the game, after I was not posting under duress?
You said you knew it was a reaction test, yet reacted exactly how scum would to the test according to hunt (and since you knew, according to you as well .
By that point i pegged you as scum.
No need to read the rest.
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You said you knew it was a reaction test, yet reacted exactly how scum would to the test according to hunt (and since you knew, according to you as well .
By that point i pegged you as scum.
No need to read the rest.
There's not much I can say that I haven't already, just that I truly was curious if an even numbered game would make the difference.
Even you conceded that that was reasonable at the time.
____________________________________________
Haven't been able to do my reread yet, busy week, and still want to hear Seppels thoughts.
Read the Rodemy wall.
Seems fine but I still don't think Shadow is scum.
I think Rodemy is confbiasing.
He's just agreeing with his earlier read.
There's nothing in there that makes me think he was reevaluating.
(like, maybe that wasn't the point, but still.)
Maybe I'll make a big town shadow case since no one wants to help me lynch tom.
Pretty sure I still have questions out to Seppel and AG.
Read the Rodemy wall.
Seems fine but I still don't think Shadow is scum.
I think Rodemy is confbiasing.
He's just agreeing with his earlier read.
There's nothing in there that makes me think he was reevaluating.
(like, maybe that wasn't the point, but still.)
Maybe I'll make a big town shadow case since no one wants to help me lynch tom.
Pretty sure I still have questions out to Seppel and AG.
:<
I don't like you anymore.
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Okay, finished my reread, here is where I'm at.
Reading Rodemy after reading Big Red Button makes me really feel better about him, his jumping around is very much town!Rodemy behavior.
Related to that, if Rodemy is town, what world does scum!silver come in and town clear both him and I when he could have gotten a mislynch off of at least me, and then possibly another off Rodemy? I'm not clearing him, but I don't want to lynch him until there are actual flips to compare with.
So yeah...those were 2 of my 3 top scum reads, leaving me with shockwave and an entire game to rearrange.
The case for shockwave has been made, and I don't think it's airtight, but I don't really have anything to add that hasn't already been said by me or someone else. preview edit: except this @Shock: I really feel like your town game in Big Red Button was actually quite good, and I'm just not seeing that here. On the chance that you are town, talk to me about what's different between the two games, and why you aren't playing like that one.
So then let's PoE everyone else:
Mindreaver: I was pretty solid on Hunt being town, and so far Mindreaver has done nothing to dissuade me from this; town.
Vaimes: I had him as town lean going in, briefly questioned my read (don't remember why) until Mindreaver replaced in, to which Vaimes seemed genuinely irritated that it would be harder to read Mindreaver. I'm leaving Vaimes as town.
Zomg: If he's scum, then he's don't remarkably well at making his play seem identical to what we've seen from his town games. Town.
Kosa and Clara are both just placeholders at this point.
------
That leaves us with 3 people: Tom, Seppel, AG
Tom: If I'm being honest, I don't dislike the case silver is making against Tom here, the problem is I don't know if that's actually outside of Tom's town game. Also, he has said some things that are pretty similar to Trigger happy, but again, from what I've seen, I believe he could do that from either alignment. If it comes down to it, I would be willing to lynch Tom, but he's not my first choice.
Seppel: His play actually reminds me somewhat of Big Red Button, which he was scum in. The issue, is that he mirrored his posting in that game off of a town game of his, so I don't even know. I really want him to be more present and talk about his Rodemy read. At this point I don't want to lynch seppel.
AG: He's been basically lurking with the occasion post just to keep in the game. I get it that this week is busy, but it started before that if I recall correctly. I don't feel like his case on me had much that hadn't already been covered, and it seemed a little bit unfocused. I would lynch him at this point, but it would be more of a policy lynch/PoE lynch, as he hasn't given me strong feelings either direction.
______________________________________________
So with the state of things, my vote would be on Shockwave, he seems more like Trigger Happy and less like Big Red Button. I will not be placing this vote however until we get a proper vote count once our replacements are in, because:
A: I don't actually know what he's at and
B: it will be reset anyway.
I will legitimately be shocked if shadow and Silver aren't scumbuddies.
'Cause the amount of "Silver is scummy but watch me never pursue that read ever and instead continuously justify leaving him alive for as long as possible" that shadow is spouting is just ???.
I almost want to say it's tstbs but I cannot justify leaving them BOTH alive and lynching elsewhere.
Hey guys, Excited for this game.
Gonna read this game tomorrow and start participating. When I do then I might bring up posts from early on the game, hope thats ok with everyone.
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Well, TBH, I didn't have much of a read on DotA, and still don't. He was drinking the same koolaid you all were with Shadow. So that's null. But then again, he was pushing zomg, which I thought was a stretch, especially since I'm townleaning on him.
My statement about lynching DotA VS lynching silver is really not about which person was more likely to get lynched. That's reading into it a bit I think. I was trying to express that I simply didn't see a slam dunk case on DotA, and without that, we'd end up exactly where we are. Silver is a good player would defend his slot. He's certainly done exactly that. Just like I said about the Shadow case, show me the evidence. Right now this whole thread is so focused on reaction to stimuli, instead of looking at how people are voting and moving around and pushing arguments. I think that is much more important. It was why I was leery (and still am) of Rodemy, despite having "flawless" reactions thus far. He's pushed agendas. So have you Tom. I'm also worried about those coasting without doing anything (myself included to some degree, although now that the weekend is over and trigger happy is over as well, I should be moe engaged).
And I get that you're "solving the game". And that has merit. It's great. Unless you're just going from whatever convenient wagon to another. Most of these pushes have been BS. What info would you get from shadow's flip? You've got a wagon full of people who think exactly the same thing about his reaction to no-lynch. And some others that feel the no-lynch reaction isn't enough on it's own. Those are both reasonable places for town and scum to be. It tells you literally nothing about me, or silver, or rodemy, or anyone right now. Nothing. For instance, using me as an example:
Was scum!Hunt bussing hard and it got too close for noob scum!Mindreaver's taste?
Did town!Hunt catch scum!Shadow for a legit reason and town!Mindreaver just doesn't agree?
Is shadow town and town!hunt was just wrong? Was scum!Hunt making up a case to mislynch?
Those all seem possible, and I don't see how you could take info like a shadow flip, and immediately know my alignment.
Finally, @tom: why appeal to seppel to vote with you? Is there some reason you had to talk to him specifically?
zomg-rodemy
vaimes-shock
seppel-ag
kosa-clara
mind
shadow
silver
those bottom 3 are connected in odd ways.
i do not think its the full scumteam, but i want to lynch in that group
see where that gets us
now we wait some more.
like, thats in your explanation.
silver is harder to lynch than dota. thats fact.
what i dont get is why that even matters if you dont have an opinion on the slot
i disagree completely that having an agenda is a scummy trait.
obviously.
since i always have an agenda.
but ok
are you honestly telling me that flips dont mean anything?
but since youve finally answered:
the reason id rather lynch silver first is scumsilver points me squarely at shadow. for reasons that have been gone over.
in the IMO less likely event of town silver, part of the problems with shadow go away and i would probably start with you for that tmi.
a shadow flip gives me less to work with, but there is still plenty of info to be gained.
and i want everyone to vote with me
seppel included
Rodemy's progression usually doesn't make sense, (at least in the games of his I've read) but I'll try to trace it.
#51 is great follow up on his clara read.
#72 begins his Shockwave read.
Next few posts he asks Seppel why DoTA is scum, says your 86 is bad, complains about tom being low effort and pushing wagons.
#104 says Huntzilla is overreacting to your progression. Follows up with Huntz and Clara on his naughty list.
Current reads - Shockwave, Huntz, Clara possibly scum.
#117 votes Huntz, tries to start a wagon. Doesn't like the DoTA wagon because it's super fast (yeah boi) and he liked his vote on Clara.
#123 likes Huntz scum read of you more than your scum read of Huntz, but doesn't want to let Huntz off the hook for the reaction test. Also you went after tom and Vaimes and he didn't like that either.
#125 he like your rebuttal to Huntz, thinks both of you might be town.
This just looks like waffling. He doesn't know which of you is right, so maybe you're both wrong.
#131 stays on Huntz for the reaction test thing.
140 is the reversal. He didn't really give a reason other than your back track on Huntz. Then he stays on you for a while, until he posts this thing: Like. I just don't see scum!Rodemy faking this post. It's so waffly and weird. It does nothing. Well, except make me town read him which I guess isn't nothing, but like. What's the point of the post for scum!Rodemy? What was his agenda? I don't see one.
He goes onto Vaimes because Vaimes is on me because DoTA was scummy even though I'm obvtown.
Then goes onto Shockwave because he likes my case. (Not because he's still trying to lynch Vaimes. He wants to lynch both of them.)
Then he goes back to pushing you... but like. He really thinks you're scum. And he even says his scumreads are Vaimes/You/Shockwave.
I dunno. He reads like town to me. His progression is fine. The worst thing is the flip he does from Huntz onto you earlier but I can see him rereading and flipping on you like that. I don't agree with him, but it doesn't make me want him dead.
I'm interested to see his PBPA on you, though. I don't think you're scum but it should give me a better idea where his head is at, at least.
I was dealing with reality tom. Silver was the only other replacement. DotA might have been a suspect, but Silver has the ability to come in and change that read very quickly. Or at least inject enough WIFOM to stall the wagon. I wasn't comparing DotA staying forever with Silver replacing in. I was discussing the topic. Dota is a fine player and wouldn't have just laid down and died. But a replacement of a capable player puts some "oh geez I was reading Dota one way and now Silver is doing something different and I don't know what to think" into the thread.
That's my argument. Not that either one was more likely to get lynched then the other. That a capable replacement on the top counterwagon to shadow, throws a money wrench in that wagon.
@Mindreaver: He's not saying we're buddies. He's saying you have TMI on my slot because you said I was going to dazzle like you knew I was town.
I had thought that too, and would be inclined to agree with him if he was being reasonable.
But he's doubling down on me and shadow being scum together instead of thinking about what it means if you know I'm town.
That's what makes me think that he's trying to chain your mislynch after mine.
ive just realized that both of our primary reasons for thinking mind might be town are because the other is scum.
thats fun
only i had to push you to say that
and youre scumreading me for it
seems legit
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/753628-experiment-3-big-red-button-mafia-game-thread
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/759740-off-the-grid-ii-game-over-mafia-wins
He got mislynched on D1 in OtG II though so not as good an example.
Big Red Button should have plenty.
and im town
discuss
@Mindreaver: I asked him about his shadow read and he hasn't posted anything since then. As of his most recent post I think he might be town - his problems with Vaimes' handling of the Shockwave case are +town and his progression is ok. The only things making me unsure about him are the way his Rodemy townread is slipping (why?) and the fact that he wants to lynch shadow, because I'm convinced shadow's a mislynch.
****in seppel with that god damn hammer.
Ughgggghhhhghgggghhhhgggh
Nah, i'm Rodemy through and through. All the scum games i have had ive ended up severly revealing myself or replacing out.
I am the worst scum.
I want my vote to mean something. If I am more conservative, that means when I vote on someone, I am telling them that I don't think their behavior is something I expect from town. Additionally, I don't ever feel good about super early scum reads, and I'd rather let a game develop a little bit before I actively accuse someone. That is something I expect will change as I get better, but hasn't yet.
Somewhat related, I hate accidental hammers, they really mess with the game flow as well as make it more common for scum to use it as a tool to their advantage. Being deliberate with my vote helps this problem at least tangentially.
Cons would be being seen as not putting my money where my mouth is, as well as the potential to not be applying pressure on a correct read early, allowing them to get their footing.
I didn't forget, that was a stupidly short game, and you were king
I did, but you were in that one anyway so...
BOW DOWN TO YOUR KING.
Here i am at starbucks and.. no outlets for my laptop. Gonna have to wait til i can get one. No way am i doin a pbpa on my mobile
like, about this game
Oh Hey. Funny you should ask.
*ahem*
(=)
Shadow:0
After Tom had voted Hunt. First vote to put hunt at 2.
(=)
Shockwave:0
(-)
Then why say you'd vote for me?
What would the vote mean if you had voted me?
Shockwave:-1
BONUS
I. STILL. THINK. THIS. IS. SCUM.
Changes RVS vote. No explination. DoTA calls out OMGUS (joke?) Either way. No reason in the post.
(-)
Shockwave:-2
So. No reason for the change. Got it
(-)
Shockwave:-3
Fluff fluff fluff.. then
Trying to make light of Claras awful post.
(-)
Shockwave:-4
Shadow checks in. Fluffy.
(=)
Shadow:0
The post that started a war.
(=)
Hunt:0
Fluff from Shockwave
As someone who has barely played with GJ, I find this post odd.
(-)
Shadow: -1
Why are you so concerned with a no Lynch?
Also"My gut says it's a bad idea" Then why do it, or even tell us about your gut being a bad idea?
Also trying to dissapate Claras awful post
(--)
Shadow: -3
DoTA joins the side of clara being bad at this.
Shock asks about the no lynch. And then the vig.
Does no lynch mean we use the vig shot instead? Never actully dealt with one.
Even so, you change your mind at the end about it. and then jump on the "clara wagon" without a vote
(-)
Shockwave: -5
Oh.
(-)
Shadow: -2
Fluff from shock.
Tom in with the impressive math.
Interaction between seppel and Shockwave.
DOtA answers shocks question to seppel.
I agree with seppel on #71
(-)
Shockwave: -6
And then Seppel thinks DoTA is scum (for what I pointed out, maybe?)
Because I like seppel
(-)
DoTA: -1
._.
I. Can't see why you said this.
Early Downward spiral?
(-)
Shockwave: -7
I must have missed over the initial shadow post. No worries.
Original post by shadow is a (-)
Shadow: -3
Again a concern for no lynch when there really shouldn't be.
Hunt comes back in with a throat punch to Shadow
(+)
Hunt:+1
Shadow: -3
Shockwave: -7
DoTA: -1
I pointed out that I thought this was bad, and i am pointing it out again.
I don't like the mindset of "Of course i knew"
If he knew it was a test. He would have known how Hunt would have reacted (voting him and calling him scum) yet he still did it.
(---)
Hunt:+1
Shadow: -6
Shockwave: -7
DoTA: -1
Shadow then tells me of his progression. Which further states that if he knew what he was making Hunt think he was scum (remember, he knew it was a reaction test) Why would he be concerned with the No Lynch?
(---)
Hunt:+1
Shadow: -9
Shockwave: -7
DoTA: -1
This was before silver was in the game.
Illuminati confirmed.
At this point Huntzilla had not said what the reaction test was about
(+++++)
Hunt:+6
Shadow: -9
Shockwave: -7
DoTA: -1
And then hunt replied to my question with such townosity.
At this point, everything said is null.
Hunt was town.
Shadow was scum.
He did a downward spiral and then left.
Then i got pissed and left.
Looking at it again i am confident in that read.
Shockwave had a few fluff posts but the ones i analyzed and holy ***** is he scum too.
That is gonna be the end of that. 3 pages in and i think 2 people are already scum.. Clara is.. Gone. And i still think that was a bad post. So.. replacement needs to town the **** up.
unvote vote shadow
Will also vote for shock if needed
DoTA was scummy in the beginning. but then silver came in with these lovely posts. Not gonna lie, i was skimming them before. But lets do a quick analysis of SASSFEST 2016
DoTA Was at 4 votes (including mine) when Silver came in.
With. *******. Vigor.
Still disagreeing with the Shadow read though.
Scumbuddy protecting?
Not good Town?
I want to go with the second one, but maybe that is what they wanna do.
Vaimes is going ham on Silver.
I say we start with Shadow.
Silver can stay and play.
Clara is still on my list of possible scum and so is shock. I wanna be sure i know which one is scum before i continue my reads.
Until then, Silver is town and will not accept the lynch. (p.s. I don't hate you for your Tom vote, but i am not going for it toDay.)
Unvote
Okay, so Rodemy might legitimately be town. I just finished Big Red Button and I found a bunch of stuff that helps that case, but the most interesting of it is this quote:
"Rodemy has gone from productive obvtown to the indecipherable spaz I'm accustomed to. If my count is correct he has called 6 different players scum in the last two pages. I don't trust his judgment whatsoever."
And that is almost identical to what I got on him about.
Ugh.
So I'm going to reread this game again, because if he's not scum, then that leaves me needing to reassess where we stand.
@Seppel: you are the only other person who thinks (thought?) that Rodemy was scum. Would you highlight the differences for me clearly? I know you said earlier it's cause he's playing better, could you go into detail for me?
_________________________________________________
@Rodemy: How exactly are you determining you math on that rating system? Also, why ignore my posts in the second half of the game, after I was not posting under duress?
You said you knew it was a reaction test, yet reacted exactly how scum would to the test according to hunt (and since you knew, according to you as well .
By that point i pegged you as scum.
No need to read the rest.
What happened to our talk in mason chat?
So what changed your mind from our pillow talk?
Nothing. I just don't hate him for it.
There's not much I can say that I haven't already, just that I truly was curious if an even numbered game would make the difference.
Even you conceded that that was reasonable at the time.
____________________________________________
Haven't been able to do my reread yet, busy week, and still want to hear Seppels thoughts.
Seems fine but I still don't think Shadow is scum.
I think Rodemy is confbiasing.
He's just agreeing with his earlier read.
There's nothing in there that makes me think he was reevaluating.
(like, maybe that wasn't the point, but still.)
Maybe I'll make a big town shadow case since no one wants to help me lynch tom.
Pretty sure I still have questions out to Seppel and AG.
:<
I don't like you anymore.
I just don't agree with you.
Reading Rodemy after reading Big Red Button makes me really feel better about him, his jumping around is very much town!Rodemy behavior.
Related to that, if Rodemy is town, what world does scum!silver come in and town clear both him and I when he could have gotten a mislynch off of at least me, and then possibly another off Rodemy? I'm not clearing him, but I don't want to lynch him until there are actual flips to compare with.
So yeah...those were 2 of my 3 top scum reads, leaving me with shockwave and an entire game to rearrange.
The case for shockwave has been made, and I don't think it's airtight, but I don't really have anything to add that hasn't already been said by me or someone else.
preview edit: except this @Shock: I really feel like your town game in Big Red Button was actually quite good, and I'm just not seeing that here. On the chance that you are town, talk to me about what's different between the two games, and why you aren't playing like that one.
So then let's PoE everyone else:
Mindreaver: I was pretty solid on Hunt being town, and so far Mindreaver has done nothing to dissuade me from this; town.
Vaimes: I had him as town lean going in, briefly questioned my read (don't remember why) until Mindreaver replaced in, to which Vaimes seemed genuinely irritated that it would be harder to read Mindreaver. I'm leaving Vaimes as town.
Zomg: If he's scum, then he's don't remarkably well at making his play seem identical to what we've seen from his town games. Town.
Kosa and Clara are both just placeholders at this point.
------
That leaves us with 3 people: Tom, Seppel, AG
Tom: If I'm being honest, I don't dislike the case silver is making against Tom here, the problem is I don't know if that's actually outside of Tom's town game. Also, he has said some things that are pretty similar to Trigger happy, but again, from what I've seen, I believe he could do that from either alignment. If it comes down to it, I would be willing to lynch Tom, but he's not my first choice.
Seppel: His play actually reminds me somewhat of Big Red Button, which he was scum in. The issue, is that he mirrored his posting in that game off of a town game of his, so I don't even know. I really want him to be more present and talk about his Rodemy read. At this point I don't want to lynch seppel.
AG: He's been basically lurking with the occasion post just to keep in the game. I get it that this week is busy, but it started before that if I recall correctly. I don't feel like his case on me had much that hadn't already been covered, and it seemed a little bit unfocused. I would lynch him at this point, but it would be more of a policy lynch/PoE lynch, as he hasn't given me strong feelings either direction.
______________________________________________
So with the state of things, my vote would be on Shockwave, he seems more like Trigger Happy and less like Big Red Button. I will not be placing this vote however until we get a proper vote count once our replacements are in, because:
A: I don't actually know what he's at and
B: it will be reset anyway.
'Cause the amount of "Silver is scummy but watch me never pursue that read ever and instead continuously justify leaving him alive for as long as possible" that shadow is spouting is just ???.
I almost want to say it's tstbs but I cannot justify leaving them BOTH alive and lynching elsewhere.
Is it the avatar? Has to be right?
Wouldn't want people to keep getting them confused
Rodemy and Shock tunnel each other as scum no matter the game or alignment mix? Got it.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
The Family
Unvote, vote Shockwave
Imagine mine with an "s: :|
Still waiting on Clara_Baer's replacement to confirm.
Final Deadline amendment - 0000 GMT-6 December 1st
The Family
lol
so weve got 6 days left
our wagons all start with an s
and 2/3s of them are on scum
not bad
Gonna read this game tomorrow and start participating. When I do then I might bring up posts from early on the game, hope thats ok with everyone.