Also, here's zomg's claim since I cracked it and it was against the rules anyway:
name: nao kanzaki
role: 1 shot mason
ability: 1 shot to go visit a player at night and let them know im town. used on tomsloger night 1.
latent: unlocks with no lynch
I used a web-based vignere cipher tool to decrypt it... luckily the passphrase was easy to guess lol.
That is not at all what you said here. VOTE Zomgarcwind
I feel like Kosa used the scanner (hence why he knew GJ was lying, but didn't show up on my report).
Also, while I think Scarbo is less likely to be scum than I did at the begin in of the day, I don't think his honesty about his night action is enough to conftown him, and I am not sure why you're assuming we have to be of the same alignment.
I feel like Kosa used the scanner (hence why he knew GJ was lying, but didn't show up on my report).
Also, while I think Scarbo is less likely to be scum than I did at the begin in of the day, I don't think his honesty about his night action is enough to conftown him, and I am not sure why you're assuming we have to be of the same alignment.
No, someone who is alive claimed it a couple hours ago, just not sure who
How did Kosa know that Shockwave was lying then? Also above, I mean shockwave not GJ, I need to stop all this mobile posting.
@mindreaver: I mean in general, I don't see scum motivation in general
@shadow: I don't know, is lazy town a thing?
@ghosting: do I have to beg for you win con? I know you're cooperating now, but it's not out of the realm of possibility for it to be advantageous for you to side with scum. Imagine a lylo situation where the only unlocked person was town. :|
@ghosting: do I have to beg for you win con? I know you're cooperating now, but it's not out of the realm of possibility for it to be advantageous for you to side with scum. Imagine a lylo situation where the only unlocked person was town. :|
K, so, I'm having a reaalllly good time tonight. This response is gonna be the most epic of the whole thread.
First, a scenario that you're painting, doesn't exist. Know why? Because if we believe in ghosting's neutrality, he doesn't know the scumteam either. Right? So he can't "target scum" and he can't "target town" either. He has no idea. The ONLY thing that ghosting can do, is literally target those least likely to be mafia killed or lynched. That means he can't go for top scumreads, nor top townreads. That's his criteria, outside maybe helping us out if we request a certain person, is just how long they will be in the game. BTW this is proph's targeting motivation as well.
No, ghosting doesn't know. I think, that you are projecting your own knowledge of who is town and who is scum onto him. It only makes sense that you would consider the way in which to use the power would include knowledge you possess now.
@ghosting: do I have to beg for you win con? I know you're cooperating now, but it's not out of the realm of possibility for it to be advantageous for you to side with scum. Imagine a lylo situation where the only unlocked person was town. :|
K, so, I'm having a reaalllly good time tonight. This response is gonna be the most epic of the whole thread.
First, a scenario that you're painting, doesn't exist. Know why? Because if we believe in ghosting's neutrality, he doesn't know the scumteam either. Right? So he can't "target scum" and he can't "target town" either. He has no idea. The ONLY thing that ghosting can do, is literally target those least likely to be mafia killed or lynched. That means he can't go for top scumreads, nor top townreads. That's his criteria, outside maybe helping us out if we request a certain person, is just how long they will be in the game. BTW this is proph's targeting motivation as well.
No, ghosting doesn't know. I think, that you are projecting your own knowledge of who is town and who is scum onto him. It only makes sense that you would consider the way in which to use the power would include knowledge you possess now.
mic drop
#legitGANGSTA
#legalizeit
To be fair, in the LyLo that Scarbo described, scum could just claim and then that would play out how he said. We just aren't at the point where it's dangerous. We just need to keep track of latents.
So you need to know the win condition because, if I read this correctly, you're concerned that if it comes down to 1 scum, ghosting, and 1 town; Ghosting *might* decide to win by activating the scum's ability?
That's the argument correct?
It's okay, I promise this scenario will not happen.
@ghosting: do I have to beg for you win con? I know you're cooperating now, but it's not out of the realm of possibility for it to be advantageous for you to side with scum. Imagine a lylo situation where the only unlocked person was town. :|
K, so, I'm having a reaalllly good time tonight. This response is gonna be the most epic of the whole thread.
First, a scenario that you're painting, doesn't exist. Know why? Because if we believe in ghosting's neutrality, he doesn't know the scumteam either. Right? So he can't "target scum" and he can't "target town" either. He has no idea. The ONLY thing that ghosting can do, is literally target those least likely to be mafia killed or lynched. That means he can't go for top scumreads, nor top townreads. That's his criteria, outside maybe helping us out if we request a certain person, is just how long they will be in the game. BTW this is proph's targeting motivation as well.
No, ghosting doesn't know. I think, that you are projecting your own knowledge of who is town and who is scum onto him. It only makes sense that you would consider the way in which to use the power would include knowledge you possess now.
mic drop
#legitGANGSTA
#legalizeit
Actually, this is so wrong I'm starting to see why people are not worried about ghosting, but this logic is literally the worst.
The optimal play by ghosting is to target scum reads that he thinks are less likely to be lynched, while joining any wagon he can such as Cythare. Ignoring all else one of the fastest and most sure ways to win is to target mafia lynch town and win with the mafia. Roles like this optimally win with the mafia and do not optimally win with the town ever. To win with the town, they have to hit all town members and not have their targets killed. Why is this? Because if they do accidentally hit a mafia member then they have effectively lost a day/night cycle of their ability usage as long as that person is lynched by the town.
This role is not interested in helping either side win and neither is prophs. They are interested in making the game last as long as they possibly can to ensure their win condition.
To recap as well if there was a SK in the game and Ghosting targeted that person and the SK won, then ghosting would win as well, same for proph. This faces issues for a variety of reasons, first the idea that Ghosting and Proph can win at the same time as the mafia or SK(Doesn't look like there is one this game).
Here becomes the true conundrum though because we haven't even started with the real issue. Proph targets X person states it, they become largely safe from night kill by the mafia. No abilities to worry about unless this person is making some great in game arguments time to move on. Ghosting targets X person states it, immediately that person becomes more valuable as a mafia target because my guess is that the activated abilities are more valuable then the non activated abilities. This is the problem.
Proph the "Anti-town" that people made him out to be is in my mind the pro-town neutral. Ghosting is the Anti-town. His ability can help the mafia and town equally but once it starts hitting mafia members it is more dangerous to the town. Prophs role also is more likely to win with the town because of the reasons mentioned and Ghostings is more likely to win with the mafia.
This being said according to both Ghosting and Proph(For the record I don't believe them). They can win with each other. This means that there is a scenario in this game where the town is actually -2 to lylo if both ghosting and proph targeted the same people.
Finally, The scenario does exist if Ghosting targets people at random he could get with now 3 or 4 scum members left the 1 in 9 or 1 in 12 chance of just hitting those members. So stop discounting this as "Not possible scenarios" it is. It is actually optimal for him to play on their side. And discounting that is very very very VERY foolish.
Well by that logic D_V, you're saying that he's a better scumhunter than the rest of us, right? Because he has to target mafia, but he doesn't know who they are.
But if he is targeting every mafia he can find, we should probably just kill a few of this targets. Since we know them.
Well by that logic D_V, you're saying that he's a better scumhunter than the rest of us, right? Because he has to target mafia, but he doesn't know who they are.
But if he is targeting every mafia he can find, we should probably just kill a few of this targets. Since we know them.
Quote from You »
First, a scenario that you're painting
Me disproving this doesn't equate to DV must think X strawman argument!
Also, that implies that I think ghosting is playing optimally I don't remotely. I don't even think he thought that his ability might put a premium on his targets at all.
I would like to get T/S lists out soon right now before I hard think about it my list for scum pool is.
Mindreaver
scarbo
Jackrito
zomgarcwind
INeedANewName
I'll be interested to see if anyone knows where I pulled that from.
@ghosting: do I have to beg for you win con? I know you're cooperating now, but it's not out of the realm of possibility for it to be advantageous for you to side with scum. Imagine a lylo situation where the only unlocked person was town. :|
K, so, I'm having a reaalllly good time tonight. This response is gonna be the most epic of the whole thread.
First, a scenario that you're painting, doesn't exist. Know why? Because if we believe in ghosting's neutrality, he doesn't know the scumteam either. Right? So he can't "target scum" and he can't "target town" either. He has no idea. The ONLY thing that ghosting can do, is literally target those least likely to be mafia killed or lynched. That means he can't go for top scumreads, nor top townreads. That's his criteria, outside maybe helping us out if we request a certain person, is just how long they will be in the game. BTW this is proph's targeting motivation as well.
No, ghosting doesn't know. I think, that you are projecting your own knowledge of who is town and who is scum onto him. It only makes sense that you would consider the way in which to use the power would include knowledge you possess now.
mic drop
#legitGANGSTA
#legalizeit
Shadow's already tried to correct you, but you're either intentionally misconstruing what I said or know something the rest of us don't.
In a lylo situation - let's imagine 2 scum (both unlocked), ghosting, and 2 town (one unlocked, one not). Since the mass claim, it's not unreasonable to assume it's public knowledge who's unlocked and who's not, especially since ghosting knows whom he's targeted. In this situation the scum know it's 2-2-1. All they have to do is claim, and have ghosting hammer on the locked town, leaving only unlocked players alive and the game over for a scum victory. Ghosting's been hinting that his win con is unlocking every living player. But you could have figured this all out.
@ghosting: do I have to beg for you win con? I know you're cooperating now, but it's not out of the realm of possibility for it to be advantageous for you to side with scum. Imagine a lylo situation where the only unlocked person was town. :|
K, so, I'm having a reaalllly good time tonight. This response is gonna be the most epic of the whole thread.
First, a scenario that you're painting, doesn't exist. Know why? Because if we believe in ghosting's neutrality, he doesn't know the scumteam either. Right? So he can't "target scum" and he can't "target town" either. He has no idea. The ONLY thing that ghosting can do, is literally target those least likely to be mafia killed or lynched. That means he can't go for top scumreads, nor top townreads. That's his criteria, outside maybe helping us out if we request a certain person, is just how long they will be in the game. BTW this is proph's targeting motivation as well.
No, ghosting doesn't know. I think, that you are projecting your own knowledge of who is town and who is scum onto him. It only makes sense that you would consider the way in which to use the power would include knowledge you possess now.
mic drop
#legitGANGSTA
#legalizeit
Shadow's already tried to correct you, but you're either intentionally misconstruing what I said or know something the rest of us don't.
In a lylo situation - let's imagine 2 scum (both unlocked), ghosting, and 2 town (one unlocked, one not). Since the mass claim, it's not unreasonable to assume it's public knowledge who's unlocked and who's not, especially since ghosting knows whom he's targeted. In this situation the scum know it's 2-2-1. All they have to do is claim, and have ghosting hammer on the locked town, leaving only unlocked players alive and the game over for a scum victory. Ghosting's been hinting that his win con is unlocking every living player. But you could have figured this all out.
Vote: mindreaver
That's the worry? Seems like a perfect storm to me. You do get that right? That the only scenarios are lylo with a perfect setup, and a nuetral that doesn't share the town wincon (whatever it is). That there is no reason why Ghosting (or Proph) would be (should be) in that situation. It's certainly not justification for why he needs to provide a wincon right now. Especially when we all *kinda* know what it is already. I think if the game gets down to 9 or 8 players, you start killing neutrals, if you're so worried.
Yeah, interesting that shadow provided you an out, and you don't have to talk about how you were afraid that ghosting would be targeting scum, the way DV argued. My point is that you know the scum team, and therefore if you had Ghosting's ability, you'd naturally want to "play optimally" by targeting scum (who won't be nightkilled). But you completely overlooked that YOU have information a NEUTRAL player wouldn't. Address that, not your pie-in-the-sky scenario.
Also, that implies that I think ghosting is playing optimally I don't remotely. I don't even think he thought that his ability might put a premium on his targets at all.
I would like to get T/S lists out soon right now before I hard think about it my list for scum pool is.
Mindreaver
scarbo
Jackrito
zomgarcwind
INeedANewName
I'll be interested to see if anyone knows where I pulled that from.
your ass
Seems lazy, it's basically me and all the newcomers. DV, you're probably the only person that is confirmed town, because I am trusting Vaime's reveal. So riddle me this: Why is GJ alive. Why Roleblock him N1 instead of killing him? Tom seemed to be no danger to anyone. Shockwave unlocked his latent, so it was actually of benefit. I understand Silver and GJ are confirming each other (GJ gets item from silver, and Silver puts forth the "Shockwave targeted him so he must be town".
So give that some thought, especially if I do end up with a short drop and a sudden stop today.
Oh, last post for today. Whoever can talk to dead people. If you still have a charge, please go talk to Kosa. I'd like to know why he thought the mafia would have a rolecop. Unless somebody knows. I can't figure it out.
DV, you're probably the only person that is confirmed town, because I am trusting Vaime's reveal. So riddle me this: Why is GJ alive. Why Roleblock him N1 instead of killing him? Tom seemed to be no danger to anyone. Shockwave unlocked his latent, so it was actually of benefit. I understand Silver and GJ are confirming each other (GJ gets item from silver, and Silver puts forth the "Shockwave targeted him so he must be town".
So give that some thought, especially if I do end up with a short drop and a sudden stop today.
Wait wait. You're tinfoiling me/GJ because I pointed out that Shockwave probably roleblocked him (now with independent verification from Shadow) but you're taking Vaimes/D_V on faith? Do you really think the three of us running an elaborate gambit is more likely than Vaimes faking a V check on D_V?
I give my reason for wanting to know ghosting's win condition.
You misconstrue it to look like I was talking about night actions.
Shadow states what I obviously meant.
I clarify exactly what I meant: one conceivable situation where town loses but ghosting wins.
You dismiss that one conceivable situation, misconstruing it as the only possible situation where town loses but ghosting wins, arrived upon only because ghosting knows the scum team (because according to you I'm projecting there). Here's where it gets confusing for me.
Then you say shadow was coming to my rescue to cover my scumslip and ask that I clarify how I thought ghosting would know how to target only scum?
Seems lazy, it's basically me and all the newcomers. DV, you're probably the only person that is confirmed town, because I am trusting Vaime's reveal. So riddle me this: Why is GJ alive. Why Roleblock him N1 instead of killing him? Tom seemed to be no danger to anyone. Shockwave unlocked his latent, so it was actually of benefit. I understand Silver and GJ are confirming each other (GJ gets item from silver, and Silver puts forth the "Shockwave targeted him so he must be town".
So give that some thought, especially if I do end up with a short drop and a sudden stop today.
Okay, so let me try and clear this up for you, because your suspicions seem to be a bit misguided and don't work together.
GJ is confirmed town, unless the scum team is exactly me/GJ/Silver.
By that same logic, Silver is confirmed town by extension.
Now, if the scum team is exactly GJ/Silver/myself, then Scarbo wouldn't also be part of that team, nor would I (who still think Scarbo is closer to scum then town, but that's definitely changing based on this conversation) jump in to Scarbo's aid about the neutral situation.
However, you're misrepresentation of Scarbo and indeed the possibility of the neutrals siding with them is incredibly suspicious. As is the fact that you believe Vaimes/DV but not GJ/Silver/me. It almost seems like your thought process is "well I can afford 2 conftowns, but not 5" because that lowers your mislynch possibilities too much to win as scum.
So what I see right now is 4 publicly confirmed town:
GJ (silver and myself)
Silver (GJ and myself)
DV (Vaimes)
Vaimes (extension of DV)
(I'd make the logical case of my own town status, but it would add a great deal of unnecessary WIFOM to the thread and I don't think it's necessary currently)
It is possible that Vaimes and DV are scum partners creating an elaborate ruse, but if that were the case, I would expect scumVaimes to have used the scanner in a different way and not declared having it at all. Not impossible just less likely.
So that leaves us with this group of players (in order from least likely to be scum to most, though I'm not entirely sold on this order):
Proph (confirmed not scum)
Ghosting (confirmed not scum)
Zomg
Hunt
Jack
Scarbo
Mind
INANN
Proph/ghosting: Neutral, not much to say currently.
Zomg: his beginning of day 2 panic and claim still seems genuine town
Hunt: double voter status has meant he's escaped most scrutiny for actions, as it is very likely a town ability
Jack: not a lot of posts, but no real scum tells
Scarbo: ugh, I am having a rough time with Scarbo and really don't know where to put him here.
Mind: at this point scum mindreaver seems reasonable.
INANN: I've been over my feelings about him. If he flips town somehow, I'd put Jack lower on this list (his reads of Soren's early game)
This is where I'm at currently. I'd go for a lynch on INANN or Mind today.
First, I want to clear up a few things. I get that right now GJ and Silver both look townie. My question is whether we're basing that on the right things.
GJ's clear is 100% because Shockwave targeted him. I do not dispute that. I'm not saying that Shadow is lying, or that Silver/GJ/Shadow have ot be the scumteam. I'm just saying that we're townclearing him completely because of a night ability we didn't expect (kill VS roleblock), that turned out of be his exact trigger (almost like it was planned), and then again we didn't see him eat it night two. Kosa and Tom are the kills instead. Kosa had literally just said that he wouldn't be surprised if the the mafia team had a rolecop. GJ is a rolecop. Kosa is dead town. I have no idea what got Tom killed.
I'm not bringing this up because I want GJ killed today. I just want to talk about it a bit, and figure out if we're being played here. Especially because...
Silver has been towncleared by association. He was the one to point out that shockwave (known mafia) targeted GJ with a negative ability, and therefore should be town. That was the argument. It's sound, except for the fact that it really HELPED GJ, not hurt him. Maybe that was just good luck, or maybe it was a plan. But in any case, lets say that Silver's bringing up that argument is alignment ambiguous instead of a clear townlock. Then what is Silver's clear based on? He gave a beneficial item to GJ. That's all. Even if GJ is town, I don't think this clears Silver. He just targeted somebody that was being townread by a large section of the playerbase. That's buddying behavior. Maybe I should be asking Silver WHY he chose GJ over everyone else. It's a good question, but it also has a predictable answer.
Shadow, I don't mean to insinuate I think you're scum. Not by your association with the Silver/GJ questions I posted, nor with the thoughts you provided about scarbo/ghosting. I only meant to say that I thought scarbo had a legit defense to my opinion, that Ghosting neither had to play optimally, nor did he have to choose targets like I suggested. Instead he chose your argument that a wincon was needed because of some end-game scenario.
Dear Everyone,
Proph and Ghosting do not share our win condition. No *****. It given the chance they will do things in their own self interest. We should sort them out before they are put into any position that would compromise the town wincon.
Love,
Mindreaver
But that isn't now. And knowing a specific wincon (or in this case, harping on and on about specific wording of such condition), is irrelevant. It also wasn't what I was saying. I do believe there was a scumslip by scarbo, when he was talking about how Ghosting should play. He's going to target scum and win is different than he's going to vote for people he hasn't unlocked. It shows that scarbo could target scum VS town.
Now I believe Vaime's claim because he also tracked me and was truthful about it. Vaimes gives me DV's town status. I wanted his input on GJ and Silver. NOT GJ/Silver together as some entity. I want to make sure when I'm leaning town on these people, that I'm not making some crazy blunder.
I believe that Shockwave targeted GJ because we have multiple sources. I believe GJ is a RoleCop because he knew my X (which was great proof btw). I even believe that Silver passed an item to GJ. I'm just saying that we should keep these concerns in mind, and not look for simple answers.
Unvote, Vote Scarbo
For the scumslip. If I"m off base, I'm off base. But I think that was legitimate. This is with the caveat that I want him sorted overnight by GJ, and we work out well in advance exactly what should be happening with his night actions.
For the scumslip. If I"m off base, I'm off base. But I think that was legitimate. This is with the caveat that I want him sorted overnight by GJ, and we work out well in advance exactly what should be happening with his night actions.
I give my reason for wanting to know ghosting's win condition.
You misconstrue it to look like I was talking about night actions.
Shadow states what I obviously meant.
I clarify exactly what I meant: one conceivable situation where town loses but ghosting wins.
You dismiss that one conceivable situation, misconstruing it as the only possible situation where town loses but ghosting wins, arrived upon only because ghosting knows the scum team (because according to you I'm projecting there). Here's where it gets confusing for me.
Then you say shadow was coming to my rescue to cover my scumslip and ask that I clarify how I thought ghosting would know how to target only scum?
Did I get all that right?
Certainly an excellent strawman. If you're not following me still, after my last few posts. Let me know.
I've gathered all the claims for your convenience. Well, really it's for mine but I thought I'd share. Thoughts in next post.
??? (from ???), Town Vanilla
??? - Triggers when we lynch a town player after 1 other town player has been lynched.
Akemi Homura (from Puella Magi Madoka Magica?), Town? Time Stopper.
??? - Anything that would affect one target player affects the other instead and vice versa (bus driver).
??? - Redirect a player's target to someone else. Unlocked when Kazuo Kiriyama (Shockwave07) died. It would have also triggered when Kyoko Sekino (D_V) or Shoutarou Kaneda (Vaimes) died.
Night 1 - No action.
Night 2 - Redirected Proph to GJ.
The Puppet Master from Ghost in the Shell, Neutral ???
Merge – unlock target player’s latent ability
??? - redirects abilities that target him to target player
Night 1 - unlocked Vaimes, forced abilities that affect him to affect Proph
Akira Kaburagi Regendorf (from Dance in the Vampire Bund?), Town? Bodyguard
??? - Bodyguard? I’m guessing it’s not x-shot or anything.
FBI Database – Rolecop target player’s latent and all abilities they have or had.
Night 1 – Shockwave (Failed, roleblocked by Shockwave)
Night 2 – Mindreaver and D_V. Both of their claims are true.
Sakae Jinnouchi (from Summer Wars), Town 0-Shot Motivator
Phone Call of Encouragement - target player gets an extra shot of their ability if they have an x-shot ability. If they do not have an x-shot ability, they can use their ability twice that night.
A Dire Situation – acquire one shot of Phone Call. Triggered when Cythare was lynched (first non-mafia player).
Night 2 – Called GJ. Zero shots remaining.
[dead players]
Dr. Desty Nova (from Gunnm/Battle Angel Alita), Town Inventor
Bio-chip Scanner – Quote a statement made by a player. You know if that player is being honest or not.
Neuro-toxin Pudding – 1 shot vig
Portable High-Pressure Water Barrier – 1 shot Jailkeeper
Just discovered a typo/omission - Proph's ability unlocked when he was on the lynch wagon at EoD1.
@Mindreaver:
Could you claim your name, please?
NewName's, uh, role name, is confirmed by Cythare's role PM. So the claim isn't totally fake (like Shockwave's) at least.
Shockwave was one scum in Cythare's trigger.
Scarbo, D_V, Shockwave, and Cythare seem to have related/interlocking roles for some reason. If D_V or Shockwave dies, Scarbo and Cythare both get their abilities. Scarbo's death unlocks Shockwave's ability. Hrm. I thought someone said they wanted to lynch Cythare because it unlocked their ability but I can't find it now.
Kosa was counter-claiming Shockwave's Jailkeeper. Still don't know why he thought the scum team had a rolecop.
I'm Kouji Tanbabashi (Inari Konkon Koi Iroha). Not a fan of claiming names btw, because that seems like a big mistake with some triggers naming specific people gotta die.
But then again, nothing claimed so far mentioned my guy, so I don't see any specific harm.
Alright, can we come back to why that was the easiest mass claim ever? No opposition, no real stalling... just... easy
Yeah my current idea is and I won't be able to make this concrete until the week and I get some time to actually read the thread is that one of the Mafia was gone IE Innan. Leaving us with 2 - 3 left?
I'm pretty certain ZOMG is scum as well.
Finally, I'm fairly certain there is a scum sitting with a role that is typically town using it to clear themselves coupled with some good play.
GJ and you come to mind for this role. But there are others as well.
So in my mind what happened was mass claim proposed one-two afk, the better embedded one says sure because they know their role looks good and so the other just goes along with it and then claims something like Zomg did.
@DV what is giving you such a strong scum read on Zomg? His crypto claim fiasco gives him some pretty strong town indication to me, what are you seeing that counters that? Also, as far as the idea of GJ being scum, do you think it's likely that he would have even said anything about unlocking his latent if he was scum and could just do it quietly with Shockwave night one?
_________________________________
What worries me is the fact that one of Kosa's inventions is still out there somewhere, unclaimed. Based on Kosa's day 2 talk, I'm guessing it's more likely he passed the vig shot. I can potentially see a reason a town would keep that quiet, but I also think at this point it would be smarter to claim it. The other possibility is that Kosa gave it unknowingly to one of the scum team, which means we should look back at his town reads.
@DV what is giving you such a strong scum read on Zomg? His crypto claim fiasco gives him some pretty strong town indication to me, what are you seeing that counters that? Also, as far as the idea of GJ being scum, do you think it's likely that he would have even said anything about unlocking his latent if he was scum and could just do it quietly with Shockwave night one?
_________________________________
What worries me is the fact that one of Kosa's inventions is still out there somewhere, unclaimed. Based on Kosa's day 2 talk, I'm guessing it's more likely he passed the vig shot. I can potentially see a reason a town would keep that quiet, but I also think at this point it would be smarter to claim it. The other possibility is that Kosa gave it unknowingly to one of the scum team, which means we should look back at his town reads.
Zomg isn't really on my radar, but that is for his play thus far. He's been fairly active and it would be an enormous effort to keep up a front like that.
It's definitely not because of the crypto thing. If anything, breaking the rules while attempting to be sneaky about a claim is not a townie thing.
The claim itself sounds great, 1-shot mason. Only he claims to have targeted the one person who then died. That's incredibly bad luck, or a lie. To DV's point, if you're looking for a scum with a relatively safe claim we can't prove, this one sticks out.
This is my second time asking, Why am I scum when we have a role that can talk to Tom and verify i am town?
Good point. It does force us to talk to Tom though. Which I'm not sure if Kosa would be a better target, both to explain his thinking on the rolecop mafia, and to find out who he gave his other item to (since they aren't claiming it).
I can't actually think of a towny reason for hiding one of Kosa's inventions.
Especially if it's a Vig shot. It needs to be treated as an extra lynch -- public and according to Town consensus.
Off the top of my head, there is zero reason to out the invention, just because of roleblocks. We are better off just keeping it silent (still voting on the vig shot, mind you), but just keeping the identity of the person secret.
I meant to say redirects. I am still lean town on Scarbo, but I strongly dislike him forcing Proph onto me, unless he had a really hard town read on INANN
Alright, can we come back to why that was the easiest mass claim ever? No opposition, no real stalling... just... easy
Yeah my current idea is and I won't be able to make this concrete until the week and I get some time to actually read the thread is that one of the Mafia was gone IE Innan. Leaving us with 2 - 3 left?
I'm pretty certain ZOMG is scum as well.
Finally, I'm fairly certain there is a scum sitting with a role that is typically town using it to clear themselves coupled with some good play.
GJ and you come to mind for this role. But there are others as well.
So in my mind what happened was mass claim proposed one-two afk, the better embedded one says sure because they know their role looks good and so the other just goes along with it and then claims something like Zomg did.
This is my second time asking, Why am I scum when we have a role that can talk to Tom and verify i am town?
Yeah but this is why I have issues with your claim.
A) I doubt you and your partner are confirmed to each other. So, even if the claim is "Verified" it doesn't mean a lot.
B) Night shenanigans with our player become really strange possibly and scum might know this.
I meant to say redirects. I am still lean town on Scarbo, but I strongly dislike him forcing Proph onto me, unless he had a really hard town read on INANN
I do, and I urge everyone to take a closer look at mindreaver.
If he redirects a vigshot that was voted on by town, then he's scum and we lynch him.
Scarbo is town and he decides to redirect it because he is the chosen shot.
He would be dumb to let the shot hit him because in his mind, any other player is more likely to flip town than he is. I still don't understand why you think the vig shot should be public? Someone claims they shot, justifies shot, no ccs, we know that person is telling the truth. Making it public just adds another layer of WIFOM that is unneeded.
There's really no reason for me to redirect at this point, except yes if someone says they'll vig me, but clearly that's not going to happen having claimed redirector.
Also I don't think vig shots should be majority-decided or announced. That's what lynching is. And it doesn't help us at all to understand the motivation of the vig.
And we should hang off on contacting kosa until after/if there is a vig kill and there's something more specific we can ask of greater use. We don't even know for sure if he gave it away.
There's really no reason for me to redirect at this point, except yes if someone says they'll vig me, but clearly that's not going to happen having claimed redirector.
Also I don't think vig shots should be majority-decided or announced. That's what lynching is. And it doesn't help us at all to understand the motivation of the vig.
And we should hang off on contacting kosa until after/if there is a vig kill and there's something more specific we can ask of greater use. We don't even know for sure if he gave it away.
One of the problems with not using the death speaker ability right away is giving the scum more time. As it stands, they have a couple of high priority targets for their night kill, and waiting on using an ability that should lower our PoE even more just gives them a chance to prioritize other players for kills.
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StaffThat is not at all what you said here.
VOTE Zomgarcwind
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StaffOh wow I'm an idiot, mason =/= Miller, I'm so sorry
UNVOTE
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StaffAlso, while I think Scarbo is less likely to be scum than I did at the begin in of the day, I don't think his honesty about his night action is enough to conftown him, and I am not sure why you're assuming we have to be of the same alignment.
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StaffHow did Kosa know that Shockwave was lying then? Also above, I mean shockwave not GJ, I need to stop all this mobile posting.
Can cite the post if necessary, but not vastly important.
Whoever got the other item Kosa presumably passed N2 should claim for accountability purposes, since the Roleblocker is dead.
@mindreaver: I mean in general, I don't see scum motivation in general
@shadow: I don't know, is lazy town a thing?
@ghosting: do I have to beg for you win con? I know you're cooperating now, but it's not out of the realm of possibility for it to be advantageous for you to side with scum. Imagine a lylo situation where the only unlocked person was town. :|
It's a one-liner where DV says he's town, so there's next to 0 doubting it.
First, a scenario that you're painting, doesn't exist. Know why? Because if we believe in ghosting's neutrality, he doesn't know the scumteam either. Right? So he can't "target scum" and he can't "target town" either. He has no idea. The ONLY thing that ghosting can do, is literally target those least likely to be mafia killed or lynched. That means he can't go for top scumreads, nor top townreads. That's his criteria, outside maybe helping us out if we request a certain person, is just how long they will be in the game. BTW this is proph's targeting motivation as well.
No, ghosting doesn't know. I think, that you are projecting your own knowledge of who is town and who is scum onto him. It only makes sense that you would consider the way in which to use the power would include knowledge you possess now.
mic drop
#legitGANGSTA
#legalizeit
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StaffTo be fair, in the LyLo that Scarbo described, scum could just claim and then that would play out how he said. We just aren't at the point where it's dangerous. We just need to keep track of latents.
That's the argument correct?
It's okay, I promise this scenario will not happen.
Actually, this is so wrong I'm starting to see why people are not worried about ghosting, but this logic is literally the worst.
The optimal play by ghosting is to target scum reads that he thinks are less likely to be lynched, while joining any wagon he can such as Cythare. Ignoring all else one of the fastest and most sure ways to win is to target mafia lynch town and win with the mafia. Roles like this optimally win with the mafia and do not optimally win with the town ever. To win with the town, they have to hit all town members and not have their targets killed. Why is this? Because if they do accidentally hit a mafia member then they have effectively lost a day/night cycle of their ability usage as long as that person is lynched by the town.
This role is not interested in helping either side win and neither is prophs. They are interested in making the game last as long as they possibly can to ensure their win condition.
To recap as well if there was a SK in the game and Ghosting targeted that person and the SK won, then ghosting would win as well, same for proph. This faces issues for a variety of reasons, first the idea that Ghosting and Proph can win at the same time as the mafia or SK(Doesn't look like there is one this game).
Here becomes the true conundrum though because we haven't even started with the real issue. Proph targets X person states it, they become largely safe from night kill by the mafia. No abilities to worry about unless this person is making some great in game arguments time to move on. Ghosting targets X person states it, immediately that person becomes more valuable as a mafia target because my guess is that the activated abilities are more valuable then the non activated abilities. This is the problem.
Proph the "Anti-town" that people made him out to be is in my mind the pro-town neutral. Ghosting is the Anti-town. His ability can help the mafia and town equally but once it starts hitting mafia members it is more dangerous to the town. Prophs role also is more likely to win with the town because of the reasons mentioned and Ghostings is more likely to win with the mafia.
This being said according to both Ghosting and Proph(For the record I don't believe them). They can win with each other. This means that there is a scenario in this game where the town is actually -2 to lylo if both ghosting and proph targeted the same people.
Finally, The scenario does exist if Ghosting targets people at random he could get with now 3 or 4 scum members left the 1 in 9 or 1 in 12 chance of just hitting those members. So stop discounting this as "Not possible scenarios" it is. It is actually optimal for him to play on their side. And discounting that is very very very VERY foolish.
But if he is targeting every mafia he can find, we should probably just kill a few of this targets. Since we know them.
Me disproving this doesn't equate to DV must think X strawman argument!
I would like to get T/S lists out soon right now before I hard think about it my list for scum pool is.
Mindreaver
scarbo
Jackrito
zomgarcwind
INeedANewName
I'll be interested to see if anyone knows where I pulled that from.
Shadow's already tried to correct you, but you're either intentionally misconstruing what I said or know something the rest of us don't.
In a lylo situation - let's imagine 2 scum (both unlocked), ghosting, and 2 town (one unlocked, one not). Since the mass claim, it's not unreasonable to assume it's public knowledge who's unlocked and who's not, especially since ghosting knows whom he's targeted. In this situation the scum know it's 2-2-1. All they have to do is claim, and have ghosting hammer on the locked town, leaving only unlocked players alive and the game over for a scum victory. Ghosting's been hinting that his win con is unlocking every living player. But you could have figured this all out.
Vote: mindreaver
Yeah, interesting that shadow provided you an out, and you don't have to talk about how you were afraid that ghosting would be targeting scum, the way DV argued. My point is that you know the scum team, and therefore if you had Ghosting's ability, you'd naturally want to "play optimally" by targeting scum (who won't be nightkilled). But you completely overlooked that YOU have information a NEUTRAL player wouldn't. Address that, not your pie-in-the-sky scenario.
Seems lazy, it's basically me and all the newcomers. DV, you're probably the only person that is confirmed town, because I am trusting Vaime's reveal. So riddle me this: Why is GJ alive. Why Roleblock him N1 instead of killing him? Tom seemed to be no danger to anyone. Shockwave unlocked his latent, so it was actually of benefit. I understand Silver and GJ are confirming each other (GJ gets item from silver, and Silver puts forth the "Shockwave targeted him so he must be town".
So give that some thought, especially if I do end up with a short drop and a sudden stop today.
I give my reason for wanting to know ghosting's win condition.
You misconstrue it to look like I was talking about night actions.
Shadow states what I obviously meant.
I clarify exactly what I meant: one conceivable situation where town loses but ghosting wins.
You dismiss that one conceivable situation, misconstruing it as the only possible situation where town loses but ghosting wins, arrived upon only because ghosting knows the scum team (because according to you I'm projecting there). Here's where it gets confusing for me.
Then you say shadow was coming to my rescue to cover my scumslip and ask that I clarify how I thought ghosting would know how to target only scum?
Did I get all that right?
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StaffOkay, so let me try and clear this up for you, because your suspicions seem to be a bit misguided and don't work together.
GJ is confirmed town, unless the scum team is exactly me/GJ/Silver.
By that same logic, Silver is confirmed town by extension.
Now, if the scum team is exactly GJ/Silver/myself, then Scarbo wouldn't also be part of that team, nor would I (who still think Scarbo is closer to scum then town, but that's definitely changing based on this conversation) jump in to Scarbo's aid about the neutral situation.
However, you're misrepresentation of Scarbo and indeed the possibility of the neutrals siding with them is incredibly suspicious. As is the fact that you believe Vaimes/DV but not GJ/Silver/me. It almost seems like your thought process is "well I can afford 2 conftowns, but not 5" because that lowers your mislynch possibilities too much to win as scum.
So what I see right now is 4 publicly confirmed town:
GJ (silver and myself)
Silver (GJ and myself)
DV (Vaimes)
Vaimes (extension of DV)
(I'd make the logical case of my own town status, but it would add a great deal of unnecessary WIFOM to the thread and I don't think it's necessary currently)
It is possible that Vaimes and DV are scum partners creating an elaborate ruse, but if that were the case, I would expect scumVaimes to have used the scanner in a different way and not declared having it at all. Not impossible just less likely.
So that leaves us with this group of players (in order from least likely to be scum to most, though I'm not entirely sold on this order):
Proph (confirmed not scum)
Ghosting (confirmed not scum)
Zomg
Hunt
Jack
Scarbo
Mind
INANN
Proph/ghosting: Neutral, not much to say currently.
Zomg: his beginning of day 2 panic and claim still seems genuine town
Hunt: double voter status has meant he's escaped most scrutiny for actions, as it is very likely a town ability
Jack: not a lot of posts, but no real scum tells
Scarbo: ugh, I am having a rough time with Scarbo and really don't know where to put him here.
Mind: at this point scum mindreaver seems reasonable.
INANN: I've been over my feelings about him. If he flips town somehow, I'd put Jack lower on this list (his reads of Soren's early game)
This is where I'm at currently. I'd go for a lynch on INANN or Mind today.
First, I want to clear up a few things. I get that right now GJ and Silver both look townie. My question is whether we're basing that on the right things.
GJ's clear is 100% because Shockwave targeted him. I do not dispute that. I'm not saying that Shadow is lying, or that Silver/GJ/Shadow have ot be the scumteam. I'm just saying that we're townclearing him completely because of a night ability we didn't expect (kill VS roleblock), that turned out of be his exact trigger (almost like it was planned), and then again we didn't see him eat it night two. Kosa and Tom are the kills instead. Kosa had literally just said that he wouldn't be surprised if the the mafia team had a rolecop. GJ is a rolecop. Kosa is dead town. I have no idea what got Tom killed.
I'm not bringing this up because I want GJ killed today. I just want to talk about it a bit, and figure out if we're being played here. Especially because...
Silver has been towncleared by association. He was the one to point out that shockwave (known mafia) targeted GJ with a negative ability, and therefore should be town. That was the argument. It's sound, except for the fact that it really HELPED GJ, not hurt him. Maybe that was just good luck, or maybe it was a plan. But in any case, lets say that Silver's bringing up that argument is alignment ambiguous instead of a clear townlock. Then what is Silver's clear based on? He gave a beneficial item to GJ. That's all. Even if GJ is town, I don't think this clears Silver. He just targeted somebody that was being townread by a large section of the playerbase. That's buddying behavior. Maybe I should be asking Silver WHY he chose GJ over everyone else. It's a good question, but it also has a predictable answer.
Shadow, I don't mean to insinuate I think you're scum. Not by your association with the Silver/GJ questions I posted, nor with the thoughts you provided about scarbo/ghosting. I only meant to say that I thought scarbo had a legit defense to my opinion, that Ghosting neither had to play optimally, nor did he have to choose targets like I suggested. Instead he chose your argument that a wincon was needed because of some end-game scenario.
Dear Everyone,
Proph and Ghosting do not share our win condition. No *****. It given the chance they will do things in their own self interest. We should sort them out before they are put into any position that would compromise the town wincon.
Love,
Mindreaver
But that isn't now. And knowing a specific wincon (or in this case, harping on and on about specific wording of such condition), is irrelevant. It also wasn't what I was saying. I do believe there was a scumslip by scarbo, when he was talking about how Ghosting should play. He's going to target scum and win is different than he's going to vote for people he hasn't unlocked. It shows that scarbo could target scum VS town.
Now I believe Vaime's claim because he also tracked me and was truthful about it. Vaimes gives me DV's town status. I wanted his input on GJ and Silver. NOT GJ/Silver together as some entity. I want to make sure when I'm leaning town on these people, that I'm not making some crazy blunder.
I believe that Shockwave targeted GJ because we have multiple sources. I believe GJ is a RoleCop because he knew my X (which was great proof btw). I even believe that Silver passed an item to GJ. I'm just saying that we should keep these concerns in mind, and not look for simple answers.
Unvote, Vote Scarbo
For the scumslip. If I"m off base, I'm off base. But I think that was legitimate. This is with the caveat that I want him sorted overnight by GJ, and we work out well in advance exactly what should be happening with his night actions.
??? - Triggers when we lynch a town player after 1 other town player has been lynched.
??? - Anything that would affect one target player affects the other instead and vice versa (bus driver).
??? - Redirect a player's target to someone else. Unlocked when Kazuo Kiriyama (Shockwave07) died. It would have also triggered when Kyoko Sekino (D_V) or Shoutarou Kaneda (Vaimes) died.
Night 1 - No action.
Night 2 - Redirected Proph to GJ.
Merge – unlock target player’s latent ability
??? - redirects abilities that target him to target player
Night 1 - unlocked Vaimes, forced abilities that affect him to affect Proph
??? - Bodyguard? I’m guessing it’s not x-shot or anything.
??? - triggers if alive on Day 4
Iris Hunter – removes target player’s abilities that are non-factional and not latent.
??? - Become untargetable for one night. Unlocked
Night 1 – Targeted Shockwave with Iris Hunter, redirected to D_V by D_V’s ability.
Night 2 – Targeted NewName with Iris Hunter, redirected to Scarbo.
Leadership - Has two votes
??? - can split the votes. Unlocked when Dr. Desty Nova (Kosakosa) died.
Red Motorbike – Informed of whether or not target player visited someone.
??? - Full tracker.
Night 1 – Mindreaver visited no one.
Night 2 – used Kosa’s scanner to cop D_V.
??? - 1 shot message, reveals his alignment to the player who receives it
??? - triggers on No Lynch
Night 1 - sent tomsloger a message
??? - 1-shot Medium
??? - triggers if a non-mafia member is lynched on an even day. Might be a revive.
Enter the Dream – 1-shot, reveals the name of every player that has targeted target player so far.
Night 2 – Targeted GJ. Prophylaxis, scarbo, shadowlancerx, shockwave, Silvercrys3467 have targeted him.
Look at me! - target player’s actions target you instead
??? - triggers on second non-mafia lynch
Night 1 – forced Ghosting to target him, redirected to Proph by Ghosting’s ability.
Cop Database – Rolecop target player’s latent ability
FBI Database – Rolecop target player’s latent and all abilities they have or had.
Night 1 – Shockwave (Failed, roleblocked by Shockwave)
Night 2 – Mindreaver and D_V. Both of their claims are true.
Phone Call of Encouragement - target player gets an extra shot of their ability if they have an x-shot ability. If they do not have an x-shot ability, they can use their ability twice that night.
A Dire Situation – acquire one shot of Phone Call. Triggered when Cythare was lynched (first non-mafia player).
Night 2 – Called GJ. Zero shots remaining.
[dead players]
Bio-chip Scanner – Quote a statement made by a player. You know if that player is being honest or not.
Neuro-toxin Pudding – 1 shot vig
Portable High-Pressure Water Barrier – 1 shot Jailkeeper
??? - Triggers on No Lynch
Ambush – Roleblock target player
??? - triggers when Akemi Homura (scarbo) dies
??? - triggers when Akira Kaburagi Regendorf (INeedANewName), Kazuo Kiriyama (Shockwave07), or Kyoko Sekino (D_V) dies.
Try and Catch Me – if a player targets you with a non-factional ability, that ability fails.
My Fair Lady – unless that player’s role is a woman.
??? - triggers when a player that had unlocked their latent dies
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Curse PremiumFilled out all of the question marks for my claim. I urge everyone else to do so as well.
@Mindreaver:
Could you claim your name, please?
NewName's, uh, role name, is confirmed by Cythare's role PM. So the claim isn't totally fake (like Shockwave's) at least.
Shockwave was one scum in Cythare's trigger.
Scarbo, D_V, Shockwave, and Cythare seem to have related/interlocking roles for some reason. If D_V or Shockwave dies, Scarbo and Cythare both get their abilities. Scarbo's death unlocks Shockwave's ability. Hrm. I thought someone said they wanted to lynch Cythare because it unlocked their ability but I can't find it now.
Kosa was counter-claiming Shockwave's Jailkeeper. Still don't know why he thought the scum team had a rolecop.
More later if I have time.
But then again, nothing claimed so far mentioned my guy, so I don't see any specific harm.
I'll do more work tomorrow/Monday, I am just feeling a touch burned out.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
INeedANewName (2): Ghosting, Jackrito
Mindreaver (1): scarbo
scarbo (1): Mindreaver
Not Voting (9): Vaimes, Huntzilla, Gentleman Johnny, Prophylaxis, D_V, INeedANewName, Silvercrys3467, Zomgarcwind, shadowlancerx
With 13 alive it's 7 to lynch.
Deadline is Wednesday, November 2nd, at 11:59 PM EST.
Day 2: 2.1 2.2 2.3 2.4 FINAL
Day 3: 3.1
Yeah my current idea is and I won't be able to make this concrete until the week and I get some time to actually read the thread is that one of the Mafia was gone IE Innan. Leaving us with 2 - 3 left?
I'm pretty certain ZOMG is scum as well.
Finally, I'm fairly certain there is a scum sitting with a role that is typically town using it to clear themselves coupled with some good play.
GJ and you come to mind for this role. But there are others as well.
So in my mind what happened was mass claim proposed one-two afk, the better embedded one says sure because they know their role looks good and so the other just goes along with it and then claims something like Zomg did.
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Staff_________________________________
What worries me is the fact that one of Kosa's inventions is still out there somewhere, unclaimed. Based on Kosa's day 2 talk, I'm guessing it's more likely he passed the vig shot. I can potentially see a reason a town would keep that quiet, but I also think at this point it would be smarter to claim it. The other possibility is that Kosa gave it unknowingly to one of the scum team, which means we should look back at his town reads.
It's definitely not because of the crypto thing. If anything, breaking the rules while attempting to be sneaky about a claim is not a townie thing.
The claim itself sounds great, 1-shot mason. Only he claims to have targeted the one person who then died. That's incredibly bad luck, or a lie. To DV's point, if you're looking for a scum with a relatively safe claim we can't prove, this one sticks out.
Especially if it's a Vig shot. It needs to be treated as an extra lynch -- public and according to Town consensus.
Off the top of my head, there is zero reason to out the invention, just because of roleblocks. We are better off just keeping it silent (still voting on the vig shot, mind you), but just keeping the identity of the person secret.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Yeah but this is why I have issues with your claim.
A) I doubt you and your partner are confirmed to each other. So, even if the claim is "Verified" it doesn't mean a lot.
B) Night shenanigans with our player become really strange possibly and scum might know this.
If he redirects a vigshot that was voted on by town, then he's scum and we lynch him.
I do, and I urge everyone to take a closer look at mindreaver.
Scarbo is town and he decides to redirect it because he is the chosen shot.
He would be dumb to let the shot hit him because in his mind, any other player is more likely to flip town than he is. I still don't understand why you think the vig shot should be public? Someone claims they shot, justifies shot, no ccs, we know that person is telling the truth. Making it public just adds another layer of WIFOM that is unneeded.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
If the shot isn't public AND in the hands of scum, then it's just an extra free kill for them, no consequences.
With all the roles on the table and the Roleblocker dead and flipped, I don't get how keeping it hush hush is wine.
Also I don't think vig shots should be majority-decided or announced. That's what lynching is. And it doesn't help us at all to understand the motivation of the vig.
And we should hang off on contacting kosa until after/if there is a vig kill and there's something more specific we can ask of greater use. We don't even know for sure if he gave it away.
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StaffOne of the problems with not using the death speaker ability right away is giving the scum more time. As it stands, they have a couple of high priority targets for their night kill, and waiting on using an ability that should lower our PoE even more just gives them a chance to prioritize other players for kills.