And if you thought it was inorganic why didn't you say anything about it at the time? My read on you has probably been my most fully developed read and one I've talked about the most as people asked me to explain it and provide links to previous games I was basing the reaction on. And in fact, the early read was based on what you said the last time you attacked me for something dumb early day one. I thought, as I always think when you attack me for something silly, that your scum setting up your bucket list mislynch Tammy plan. Your response was that you were far more likely to wait until near eod to take advantage of the confusion at eod to raise your suspicions and get me mislynched than you were to attack me for something small at the beginning of the game when my reaction to your push would get me town read and where I would have the entire day to look townie and direct my suspicion at you.
I've been paranoid of you the entire game.
However, day 1 I was paranoid and giving you space, then Day 2 you were investigated by the cop. I haven't been seriously reading you since then.
I don't deny that specific piece of reasoning is fine and you're right that unwavering = shallow is not really a fantastic argument, but that's not really what I was trying to say. Your read on me just feels fake in retrospect, incomplete. Even when you're townreading me as hard as you were in GoT you strengthen it in little ways, reassure yourself that I'm not really fooling you, good stuff like that. You didn't here. And maybe it's not fair to expect you to keep up to that high standard of your typical read on me but it just seems fake.
Your play hasn't given me cause for concern, should it be?
The problem isn't that you're townreading me, it's mostly how you're townreading you.
Shallow doesn't have to do with unwavering and you know it. In GoT, I had an unwavering town read on you from the start once I realized who you were. The only tiny little bit of paranoia I even felt that game was when you had no suspicions on a couple of people I suspected and I thought that maybe you could be their symp. There are no symps in this game. In Adventure Time, I had an unwavering town read on you because you could have got me lynched day one and you kept me from getting lynched when I couldn't be there at deadline.
Your read on me felt different in both of these games :/
Eh.
I don't really have strong responses to your points.
I just need you to help gamesolve because I'm flailing; the problem I have with you is pretty much entirely that your interactions with me have felt off all game and that your approach to Tom this whole game felt weird. I don't really have words or reasons for a real case I've just felt weird about you the whole game and was hoping I could clear you being town with the cop thing but I think Axel's points are genuine enough and I'm just hoping you can town hard enough so that I can go back to tunneling him.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
And, all right Nacho, let's just see how Townie you've been.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I feel like I've said a lot of this before. Mainly though, at the end of the day, it all has to do with mindset. Why people do what they do and say what they say, and can I see those words/actions coming from a Town mindset vs. a scum mindset.
And the thing about Nacho - this nagging feeling I've had for most of the game - is that it seems like there's very little he's done or said that I feel just couldn't have come from out of a scum mindset. And a lot of what he's posted/done that just fits right in there.
*Here we will acknowledge that Axelrod's feelings have not been spot on this game, which is undoubtedly one of the reasons Axelrod is still alive, but I think my reads tend to get more accurate the deeper in we go.*
Nacho opened the game on a questionable note when he adamantly refused to go along with the Name-claiming that everyone else was doing. For basically no good reason I could see. And moreover, he started throwing out false name-claims, apparently just to drive home the point that he wasn't going to play along. But why not? What was the deal? What he said was:
Quote from Nacho »
I'm not claiming a flavor name because trying to break the game via flavor claiming seems foolish AND boring.
Then said:
Quote from Nacho »
I sti don't want to share my name. I want to be special. Can you please let me just be special?
Which, incidentally, is not the same thing.
Then the next thing he said (which might have been his last word on the subject, I'm not sure):
Quote from Nacho »
I'm claiming flavor names as a protest and because it's fun. Why does it bother people as much as it does? Do they think there was one guy on the mafia team who didn't get a safe nameclaim and that he decided to claim a wolf name in every post in order to compensate for it?
Eh. Kind of worth an given we now know they did have safe claims.
That's kind of another issue. Namely that Nacho seemed quite certain very early on that the Mafia did have safe claims. Which is another from me. Because I don't think that was an obvious assumption at all. Why should it have been? If you're playing a game in which the Mafia are "Pigs" and the Town are "Wolves", but the Wolves all have names that make them sound like Pigs, why do the Pigs need safe claims? Why can't they just have Pig names too?
Now, in hindsight (hey, a pun!) I can see why Iso would feel it necessary. Because even if the Town all have Pig names too and no one is getting caught out this game because they have a pig name, the scum wouldn't know that the Town had Pig names, at least at the beginning. And there could be potential for scum to get busted because of this (by false-claiming a Wolf-sounding name out of fear, maybe) or for Townies to get "cleared" due to this - not at all unlike what almost happened right at the start of the game. So if Iso gives the Pigs "safe" claims that are pig puns, then the scum know what's up right out the gate. Even if they don't technically need these safe claims. So I understand where Iso was coming from. What I question is Nacho's very early jump to that assumption before, I think, that was an obvious assumption to make. Mindset again.
But, back to refusing to play along with the Name claiming, I think, even assuming Nacho deduced early on that the scum must have safe claims for the above mentioned reasons, his behavior here just wasn't very townie. If you really think the names don't matter, why not "play along." And, frankly, if you are so certain about false claims being provided, shouldn't you be arguing that no one can be cleared even a little bit from the early name claiming/confusion. I went back and looked for this, to see if Nacho was being consistent here, and what I found was this (this is in response to a ZDS question to him about if Tammy was acting normally):
Quote from Nacho »
Do I think that her confusion of win conditions looks is probably genuine? Yes (I don't follow why people assume Mafia would be any less confused than Town).
This is not consistent with a position of "Mafia have false claims. Mafia therefore know that the Town all have piggy-sounding pun names. Mafia should not be confused at all by what is going on here."
Then said this:
People who did the flavor claim business after ZDS's first post probably shouldn't be cleared for flavor spec since mafia either has fakeclaims (so they know what the **** is up) or Iso doesn't actually know how to make setups :). I don't see ZDS coming out immediately in the way he did and he has plenty of town-looking content to supplement that so it's all good.
Which, while suggesting the Mafia have false claims and therefore no one should be cleared, still appears to be giving ZDS town-credit for coming out with the idea in the first place. This isn't totally inconsistent though. You could still think that scum, even knowing "what was up" might be shy about throwing it out there in their first post of the game. Not strong scum - which ZDS can certainly be - but still.
Then there was just the silly protest angle of it all. Didn't understand it then, and still don't now. If your actual rationale is: "I'm against name-claiming-to-try-and-break-the-game-in-principle" then this still seems like a poor way to make that protest. To make up a new name every time someone asks you your name? That's just kind of being an ***.
So, what I'm seeing are two different things going on here, two different rationalizations (or three even, if the last one is just "to have fun"), none one of which look particularly townie, right out the gate.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I'm just going to jump right to Nacho/Tom, since I think that's where the meat of this is going to be. And I already know that this is going to be Nacho's go-to argument for why he's so Townie - namely, that he was very anti-Tom for almost all the game.
Obviously, just being anti-Tom doesn't prove anything (Vaimes was very anti-Tom too; busing is a thing; etc. etc.), but it's got to be a point in favor. So my real interest is, how did the anti-Tom-ness arrive, and how was it argued? Sometimes being too certain that someone is scum for weak reasons, (or, conversely, being too certain someone is town for weak reasons) can be a tell in and of itself. It's probably worth looking at how Tom responded to these pushes too.
Anyway, Nacho's first mention of Tom was in his second post of the game Here, where he questions Tom's statements of "I'm not super comfortable clearing anyone," and "I have super-strong opinions though." Fair enough. It's not like a big inconsistency or anything, but Nacho's not voting him for it either, just mentioning it, so, fine.
Nacho first real attack is on Tammy, talked about before. That doesn't last too long. Nacho and Tom have a small talk about Tammy though in the meantime, which is somewhat interesting in itself, in as much as Tom is expressing suspicion of Tammy in those posts - not super-strong suspicion, but has her in his ">randscum" grouping. But Nacho - who is voting Tammy - appears to be challenging Tom. And questioning Tom's basis for being suspicious of Tammy. Like, Tom doesn't have a good enough basis? Or that Tom ought to be using other reasons that he is not using?
Stuff like this:
Quote from Nacho »
I'm not really sure why you seem so unconcerned about the difference between her play here and there.
In reference to another game they played where Tammy was Town. Nacho is arguing that Tom should be seeing a difference here.
It's just weird because, again, Nacho is voting Tammy, and Tom is expressing suspicion of Tammy (weak suspicion even), but Nacho doesn't like Tom's reason enough? It doesn't seem like the kind of thing that would even stand out to me at all if I was making a push on someone. Maybe if Tom were strongly attacking Tammy, or strongly defending Tammy, maybe there would be something there to note, one way or the other. But this?
Again, it's kind of just the mindset. I don't see where Townie-Nacho get suspicious vibes off Tom for those reasons.
Nacho then checks out for a bit, almost a full week. And it's when he comes back, around #514, that he becomes strongly anti-Tom. This is supposedly after review, so there's nothing suspicious about the timing of it. What are the reasons?
First, Nacho appears to be trying to get into Tom's mindset (a good thing), but concludes that Tom's opening remarks of the game - about the wincons being confusing to him and that his name makes him think Pig but that means he should be mafia - make more sense from a scum mindset than a Town mindset. And, frankly, I disagree. This despite the fact that Tom was scum. But I don't agree with Nacho's supposed logical reasoning process.
What Nacho says is, "if I was Town, and I got a role PM that was confusing to me in the way Tom has described (which was, in fact, the case for you Nacho, yes? I guess you have never said whether you were "confused" about your name or the flavor of this game, have you), then what I would do would be to assume that all Townies had the same problem, and then try to bait out reactions (in the way that ZDS/Seppel did). Conversely, if I was scum, and I had a false-claim, and therefore knew that the Town was going to be/could be confused about their names, I could see making a "play" like this to try and show everyone that I was in the same boat that they were in, i.e. that I was Town..."
The logic of this breaks down for me in a couple places. First in the "I would assume all townies were in the same boat as me." Which I probably wouldn't assume. Second in the "I would immediately try to use this to bait out reactions." Which springs out of the first assumption, but even if I had made that assumption I don't know that I would immediately leap to do what ZDS did. And third in the "scum-with-false-claim" assumption that Nacho is again making, I believe, before he has a good basis to believe that to be the case. At least, there were a couple other options which seemed to be possible to me.
Finally, it strikes me that there's something of an inconsistency here in that Nacho is saying this is what he thinks Tom should have done as Town, but this was not what Nacho himself did. And, in fact, was something that Nacho himself argued against us doing.
I've got to go again, and I'm at three posts, so I guess I'm not speaking again until someone else says something. I'm only just getting into the Tom/Nacho stuff.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
So, what I'm seeing are two different things going on here, two different rationalizations (or three even, if the last one is just "to have fun"), none one of which look particularly townie, right out the gate.
This attack is particularly absurd.
You said that you're trying to look into scum and town mindset, correct? What does my approach to flavor claiming have anything to do with my town mindset versus my scum mindset?
You now know that scum had safe claims at the start of the game. This means that I could have just claimed my flavor and went along with it. Instead, I claimed three or four wolf-sounding names and complained about flavor claiming and I went on my merry little way. This is an irrational approach regardless of alignment. As scum, I have absolutely no motive whatsoever to approach the flavor claim in the way that I did. As town, I have absolutely no motive whatsoever to approach the flavor claim in the way that I did. Thus, you searching into my position on flavor claims and determining that my approach to them was irrational tells you absolutely nothing about whether I am likely town or likely scum - the only thing that it tells you is that my approach to the flavor claiming was irrational. You're absolutely right that my approach to claiming flavor was being an ass, but, once more with emphasis, I have absolutely no motivation as either alignment to just pop up and be an ass about it.
So, where are you coming up with "Nacho's approach to flavor claims is nonsense" --> "Nacho is scum"?
I'm out of town today with no access to a computer (typing this on my phone). I will say, Nacho, that you're starting to sound like a broken record with the whole "X stupid thing may be stupid, but that doesn't make it scummy" argument that you keep making. and you seem to be ignoring the larger point I was making just now about inconsistent mindsets.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I feel like a broken record but it's not like you're picking on anything that has to do with alignment.
The pieces of inconsistent mindset that you pointed out... I believe mafia could still be confused on win condition even with safe claims, especially when their safe claims look like pig names, so I'm not really sure what you want me to say in response here...?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I feel like I'm not changing my position here. Which kind of means it's not up to me anymore, except in as much as I need to persuade Tammy this is right. Which is problematic in itself given Tammy doesn't seem to be paying that much attention anymore.
I could point out that no one in this entire game has the same incentive to leave you alive + Cop-cleared that Nacho has, and that it makes precisely 0 sense for me to have put myself in this position as scum, and it simply would not ever have happened. But somehow I feel like that argument is going to get slid by. Frankly I could argue the same thing to Nacho - that it makes 0 sense for scum me to put myself in this endgame with him and Tammy, but Nacho has already shown how he's ignoring that argument completely, which is just one more reason it's probably him.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Yes sir, things are going just swimmingly, I must say.
Also state again for the record that if Tammy is a scum GF, got incredibly lucky with the Cop shot and is now doing this disappearing act (because what does it matter anymore?), I will be super disappointed.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I'm here. I don't know what to think at this point because you both look kind of town.
I thought when I saw I was alive that it was because whichever of you left me alive was because you were going to push The Godfather angle. So I thought nacho was setting up for that yesterday with his interaction with me and I was ready to vote whoever did that. I waited to see if that would come but axel just kind of floated but not sure if that's to stir paranoia. But basically neither of you did that so I'm lost.
And this is where I despair because I feel like you're just going to default to "well, I can't decide and Nacho is my buddy, and I'd rather lose to him than lose by not trusting him, so mise."
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I am rereading over you guys and trying to make sense of this. Seppel had you as a decently strong town read day one when I thought you were scum before you went after Huntz and I thought we were both seeing something similar, and I wrote you off as town for a while after that because I thought you were the vig. Your push on Vaimes did look good, but you read the game after he was starting to get some heat, and considering the other wagon was the mafia bp, I can see you going to Vaimes to distract from the Tom wagon.
Nacho's end of day looked really good as did his Tom push yesterday when he could have pushed proph, though he is no stranger to bussing so he doesn't get as much credit for that as he normally would. But his pushing on me yesterday and getting after me for a town read that I don't understand why I should be questioning it has me scratching my head. But then if he wasn't going to push the godfather angle, which is what it looked like he was doing yesterday. But then he didn't do that, so I don't know.
Well, I'm just going to keep pulling out stuff until something gives.
This is more from #514 where Nacho has now become very anti-Tom. At one point Nacho quotes Vaimes and says he's a "big fan" of Vaimes and his Tom read. I wouldn't care so much about his being a big fan of Vaimes at this point in the game, but the "read" that Vaimes is giving on Tom here is from post #107, which is stupid early:
Quote from Vaimes »
Townreads on tom are too easy. I distinctly remember Iso crying about him pretty much scumclaiming several times in Stargate and getting away with it for literally months. I don't understand any of his votes.
And also is not actually much of a "read" at all. It's like a little meta discussion where Vaimes says that people who are Townreading Tom are doing it too easily. Because Tom has been mis-read before. Ok? None of that has anything to do with anything. Like it maybe says more about the people who are stupidly town-reading Tom then it says about Tom himself. The only part of this which is even a tiny bit on point is where he says he doesn't understand Tom's votes. That could maybe be relevant - if Vaimes was doing anything to follow it up or try and figure Tom out. Which he wasn't.
The short of it is that there is nothing here for Nacho to be a "big fan" of, especially as it relates to Tom.
Then this part, which is more of his Tom issues:
Quote from Nacho »
I know that there's probably a better quote where Tom mentions his treatment of Mato and Tammy, but I think that it looks fake as *****. For one, I don't like how Tom is just slotting these two in as "crucial mislynches" instead of actually trying to read them; I don't think that it's a natural approach to have and sure Tom does weird things but Tom looks at motivations, Tom looks into people's mindsets, and he's just not doing any of that here. Secondly, the two people he's slotting in as "easy to mislynch" is Matowar, who he's read every post ever and thus is confident he can read him (and thus he should be giving us a confident read instead of saying that scum can mislynch him), and Tammy, who is really really town when she's town and Tom knows this and is aware of this. I know people are tempted to give him a pass because it's ~weird~, but with town!tom the weirdness is a wonderful side dish whereas with scum!tom the weirdness is how he tries to survive.
Basically this is mostly a meta-argument. "(Town)Tom looks at motivations...Tom knows Tammy and knows she's really Town when she's Town..." And that last bit which is actually just gobbly-gook. Town!Tom is weird as a side effect but scum!Tom uses weirdness to try and survive.
Like, these are kind of unassailable positions because they aren't based on anything other than Nacho's personal opinion on how Tom the person is and on what Tom the person should and should not know.
There's (again) a tiny bit here which is game-related, which is the part about how Tom's position re: Tammy/Mato and their being necessary scum mislynch targets. I talked about that before too. But it seems a small part of the whole.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
It just seems like so much of Nacho's Tom read is based on meta that it's hard to credit. Because it's exactly the kind of thing you could say about your scum-buddy and then can't be proven wrong - because he was scum, see? And you can always say the reason you figured it out was because he wasn't playing like...any other game where he was Town.
Quote from Nacho »
I think that ZDS's reasons for townreading Tom suck (and sorry for not being polite but apparently I've decided to be an ass this game). You said that Tom takes longer to post useful content as scum than as town. I agree. I think that Tom as scum ****s around and says weird things while Tom as town says weird things a bunch but constantly and incessantly and unrelentingly scumhunts. Tom's case on Seppel is that Seppel is scum because he voted two players (a leaning scumread and a nullread). It has not evolved beyond that. That is not a good case, that's a lazy as hell push that's getting way too many good looks just because the angle Tom took was a unique one.
This is more meta, with a little bit of game-related where he says Tom's case on Seppel is "not a good case," and is a "lazy as hell push." Okay? But my feeling is that this isn't (shouldn't have been) enough to make you all gung-ho-anti-Tom. It just wasn't that much.
Then there was his actual big Tom case from #547 that I already talked about before. At least I talked about some of it. I was reading it then to see if it was hyped up and full of misrepressentations and bad arguments. I concluded that it wasn't, though a lot of the points Nacho was making I didn't think were particularly good. It's easy to say, in hindsight, why that was.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I'm just going to end my again-three-post-in-a-row run with some observations on Nacho's Tom progression over the days.
Looking back I do think it weird how on Tom Nacho got by the end of the day. Like the whole, it's me or him! One of us is dying! To the point he threatened to "full claim and self vote" in a suicide mission effort to have Tom get lynched the next day (which fails for the obvious reason that, even if Nacho flipped Town, that would hardly prove Tom was scum. Only that he was sincere in his beliefs. Town have incorrect but sincere beliefs all the time. Why should town-Nacho really think that his death would guarantee a Tom death tomorrow?)
Regardless, this is quite a strong opinion here.
So, I wanted to see how Nacho picked up this thread the next game day, given we lynched Vaimes on D2. And then we lynched ZDS on D3 based in large part on Tom's counter-claim. What was Nacho saying about Tom then?
He didn't vote Tom immediately D2. It was about his 3rd post on the day, which isn't a big deal. He then does continue his push on Tom in #1021, which is mostly a rehash of what he has previously said, but also fine. It's all Tom, Tom, Tom. Right on through the Vaimes lynch. Which itself is barely commented on or even acknowledged by Nacho as it is happening. This is interesting to me because, while I can accept that Nacho thought Tom was obv-scum and was basically the only person Nacho wanted lynched the whole Day, shouldn't he have acknowledged the Vaimes wagon/said/done something there? If he felt like we were about to mis-lynch Vaimes over Tom, given the strength of this Tom read, I feel like he should/would have been raging even more at the stupidity of what was going on. Trying to avoid this horrible mis-lynch over the obviously scummy Tom. But there is almost nothing here about Vaimes at all.
And then there was D3.
D3 Nacho is AWOL for a week. By the time he makes his first post, ZDS has already claimed and Tom has counter-claimed. Nacho comes down...against ZDS. The full post:
Quote from Nacho »
I'm comfortable voting here for now.
Vote: ZDS
I'm not necessarily crazy about the CC (in that I don't think that it's alignment indicative), but I do think the speed of it reflects well on Tom. I liked ZDS's response to Seppel for tunneling him earlier on this page, but I don't like his vote on Tom for seeming fatalistic, and in recent memory I can't remember a vote on anyone that seemed like a genuine push. Him trying to get Citric the cop lynched yesterday also meshes for a scumteam without a roleblocker who was afraid to take the shot; giving scum partial-immunity to the two-shot cop makes a lot of sense instead of giving them a roleblocker, and the protective role being a passive one (ALA bulletproof) makes more sense than a doctor.
And the problem here, obviously, is that this throws out everything Nacho has been screaming for the past two game days. Tom is scum! Tom is scum! (Scum is lynched). Well, maybe Tom's not scum....This has been practically Nacho's only scum read, but it's just evaporated in the face of this claim? Nacho even apologizes to Tom, "I'm sorry for never trusting you..." And says "Axel, Seppel, Tom all look behaviorally pretty town to me."
I just have trouble buying this turn-around from what came before. Just because of a counter-claim? Where you even said that the claim itself isn't alignment indicative? You have to acknowledge here, Nacho, that what this looks like is scum who, having had one buddy go down, isn't eager to see his second buddy go down immediately afterwards, even if it means completely reversing himself on his prior opinion.
Then there was D4. Now, here, (I pointed this out before too) if there was EVER a time for Nacho to be anti-Tom it's now. He was super anti-Tom D1-D2. He reversed himself D3 due to the counter-claim, but, turns out, ZDS was Town, so now it ought to be freaking obvious that Tom is scum and super easy to go back to his earlier read. But he didn't.
Not right away. Not to pat myself on the back too much because I've been wrong plenty this game, but that was super obvious and easy for me. But at the start of D4, Nacho was still hesitant. He went off on me. He said I was being too hasty. He said this "requires a second look." He argued strongly that the mechanics/role balance did not make Tom auto-scum.
Really?
Until he finally comes around and votes Tom characterizing it as an "obvious" vote that should get done. Now I guess we're back to obvious.
He then goes off on a long series of posts which I can now characterize as him attempting to set the stage for yesterday/today. Because he's been "town-reading" me recently, but he's also been town reading everyone left alive, and I guess he needs a new suspect. Which becomes me. Who he will proceed to vote immediately the next day (with no further need to take a "second look" or whatever it was that he needed before lynching Tom.)
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
But I'm obviously not going to do it today since you don't have time to respond, but that's strongly where I'm leaning. I feel like you're interpreting my concerns on your read on my as "why am I supposed to question a townread" which is obviously not what I was getting at in the least bit; it's the same thing when I dismiss you as town for weak reasons when I'm scum or when anyone dismisses you as town for weak reasons early.
Axelrod, I'll respond to your recent posts when I get home but if you think there exists a world where I leave Tammy as a cop clear to LyLo, you're wrong. If you think there is a world where I leave Tammy alive as a cop clear to LyLo to somehow mislynch her, you're wrong. If you think that I decide to bus Tom for the entire game except immediately after he counterclaims a townie (because he's going to survive the day, right), you're wrong. I think that your case on me is absolutely bat***** crazy (why would Nacho ever say "**** you, lynch me or lynch tom? that's not rational) and I think it shows how you don't understand how
Okay, why is it wrong, Nacho? You make it sound like it's craaazy to even consider the possibility, but, gee, it doesn't seem that crazy to me? What about the fact Tammy's been calling you town the whole game? Why wouldn't/couldn't you leave her be under those circumstances? What is bat*** crazy about my noticing how you seemed all gung-ho to lynch Tom right up until we lynched a different scum and then, it somehow got a whole lot less obvious to you?
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Okay, why is it wrong, Nacho? You make it sound like it's craaazy to even consider the possibility, but, gee, it doesn't seem that crazy to me? What about the fact Tammy's been calling you town the whole game? Why wouldn't/couldn't you leave her be under those circumstances? What is bat*** crazy about my noticing how you seemed all gung-ho to lynch Tom right up until we lynched a different scum and then, it somehow got a whole lot less obvious to you?
Tammy can read me better than most; would you leave someone alive who has approximately 50 more games than everyone else has with you and has never ended up strongly townreading you any of the times you were scum against them? If I left Tammy alive because she had such a strong townread on me, it makes absolutely no sense for me to go weird on her at endgame and start suspecting her. If I was setting her up to be mislynched, 1) it makes no sense for me to do it now when she has a cop innocent on her and 2) it makes no sense for me to go after you as hard as I did yesterday if my master plan was to mislynch you.
If I was bussing Tom the entire game, I'd be doing it to get credit, yes? To say "oh, I put Tom in danger when he shouldn't have been in danger". If Tom and I were scum, I put both of us in danger by the end of Day 1 in order to get credit. I kept pushing him throughout the entirety of day 2.
Then, after he counterclaimed a townie, after it is pretty ******* clear that there is basically a 0% chance that no one is getting lynched, that's when I decide to defend him? And instead of pushing an alternate wagon (and thus increase the chances of him surviving), I just... defend him? This doesn't seem the slightest bit stupid to you?
Is there any reason why you haven't answered my question about your thought process on Tom Day 1 and why you were ready to no lynch instead of lynch him?
At the end of the day, I'm ready to vote Tammy over you because I feel like you've given me far more reasons by play to think that you're town that she has. You've frustrated me plenty, sure, and I'd be very surprised if the feeling wasn't mutual, but if you're scum, you've done a great job acting frustrated and acting like you actually believe what's going on and I also don't really understand why you have left Tammy alive so long if she's scum. I still like your early post when you laughed about your people believing your fake claim being part of your evil plan, I still like your annoyed "I'm going to trash Nacho's post on Tom" post that you made while Vaimes and Tom were getting wagonned, I still like your play at LyLo, I like your play now. If you are scum, the only thing that tipped me off against you was your EoD Day 1 and your bad case on Huntzilla, the later of which I don't think is alignment indicative and even as I'm writing about it now seems like a weird thing to post in general.
If Tammy is scum, then I've been getting weird vibes from her the entire game. I liked her being confused about win conditions early but it's not like that's something that she couldn't fake/it's not like it's something that couldn't be genuine, and... there's not really anything else that really resonated with me from her posting, it feels like we just haven't been able to click the entire game. I guess it's not really fair, but she knows that I've been nursing this paranoia of her for a really long time and my hope was that eventually she'd make an effort to connect with me in thread and fix it but it doesn't feel like she's done it despite a couple opportunities here and there, it feels like she's acting dumb with regards to me and the town read; I know she understands being creeped out by a townread, and I don't like her interactions with me over tom; I'm guessing that's probably self-centered but it didn't feel like she was interested in working with me at all.
I'm happy to give her time but game ends on the 29th, I'm probably not waiting past tomorrow night and if my read has been wrong for all of these weeks (months? jesus it feels like I've been in this game a long time) I really doubt that I'm suddenly going to get it right in 72 hours and I'm not really sure it matters since Axelrod is probably going to quickhammer me anyways but w/e. That's where I stand right now.
And it's not interpreting it as why would I question a town read, and I don't know where you get that assumption. I was asking in that specific instance, why should I have questioned my town read on you, specifically? I mean sure, maybe my early town read on you was a it premature and bull*****. I'll accept that. I got mad at you and felt bad that even though the way you attacked me upset me, not that you attacked me, but I got more mad than I think I normally would have because I was already upset and I felt bad and made people uncomfortable. I may have gone overboard in trying to correct that by town reading you early. Maybe that was going on. Your end of day one posts is what made me think you were town, and whenever I did question my read on you or doubt when you had been away, I went back to those posts, which I thought were way more likely to come from a town you.
And I haven't been ignoring you this game. I thought we worked quite well together on the day that Tom was lynched. I was all set to vote proph that day because I thought that he and Vaimes were partnered. I thought that Tom wouldn't have counterclaimed someone like that as town and thought that there could be two town protectives. A lot of why I paid more attention to Tom was because of you. So that's twice that I listened to you and your Tom read.
And while you're talking about how this is not the lylo situation you would create, you think this is one I would? Axelrod who has been talking about the possibility of me being godfather for days and you who read me better than most who started talking about the possibility of me being a godfather yesterday? I have someone who's had me as a strong town read the entire game and I throw that away for what exactly again?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
something that i thought of yesterday night before i fell asleep was that tom's claim/counterclaim business makes sense if Tammy is scum; most people weren't questioning the cop innocent at this point and so it makes sense for him to give himself up if he thinks tammy is in a strong enough position to carry to and through endgame which makes sense. it doesn't really make as much sense with axelrod, but i guess it still makes sense.
axelrod at least feels like he's trying to figure it out. tammy doesn't. tammy feels like she's just going through the motions which i am too but i guess on my part it at least feels different from that. i'm pretty ready to get flamed by everyone available who tells me the setup is horrible if tammy is town but here we are. the heart wants what it wants although it hates that's what it wants.
I'm town but I almost am not even mad at you if you lose this for us by voting me because I still feel bad about getting so upset day one.
Regardless, I'll wait for Axel. If he's scum good job. If not, I'll make my argument then and good job on fooling the hell out of me from your day one appeal.
I'm town but I almost am not even mad at you if you lose this for us by voting me because I still feel bad about getting so upset day one.
Regardless, I'll wait for Axel. If he's scum good job. If not, I'll make my argument then and good job on fooling the hell out of me from your day one appeal.
i don't think it's fair to put the responsibility on me for this
i don't know why if you're not town you're not telling me to unvote
i mostly just hate this game and want it to be over
Also, if you are town, I'm just going to sit in this corner and point and laugh at you for really not knowing how to read me at all.
i can't really read you.
i said as much after you fooled me in dover boys.
i guess i hoped that if you were town here you would have at least started looking into axelrod, i hoped that you would help me out of the weird paranoia funk that you were in but you didn't do that but i guess it's not fair that i don't know how to communicate when i want these things to happen earlier and i guess it's mostly just that you feel fake
and mostly this game is just a reminder that i really need to fix how i approach you in games because this is ridiculous
i can see you leaving me alive because you want me to catch you, i can see you leaving me alive because you felt guilty killing me, i don't know why i'm alive right now because i certainly don't want to be but here i am. i expected maybe that if you were hard townreading me and you saw me voting you you'd have a realer reaction but you didn't and that sucks. i don't know how you aren't still hard town reading me but is that fair? probably not.
I'm town but I almost am not even mad at you if you lose this for us by voting me because I still feel bad about getting so upset day one.
Regardless, I'll wait for Axel. If he's scum good job. If not, I'll make my argument then and good job on fooling the hell out of me from your day one appeal.
i don't think it's fair to put the responsibility on me for this
i don't know why if you're not town you're not telling me to unvote
i mostly just hate this game and want it to be over
I told you if you voted me and you were town the game would be over and we would lose.
What more do you want me to do. I put the responsibility on you because you ignored my response to you to just vote me.
I want this game to be over too. I'm mostly just confused and don't know what to do here. I've had you as a strong town read all game and whether or not you like it I felt like I had pretty good reason to, but you started getting after me for it and I don't know if you were manipulating me or now if my original read on Axel was right.
If you feel good about it, own it. I'll wait on Axel to see if you're scum or if the game continues.
And it's not interpreting it as why would I question a town read, and I don't know where you get that assumption. I was asking in that specific instance, why should I have questioned my town read on you, specifically? I mean sure, maybe my early town read on you was a it premature and bull*****. I'll accept that. I got mad at you and felt bad that even though the way you attacked me upset me, not that you attacked me, but I got more mad than I think I normally would have because I was already upset and I felt bad and made people uncomfortable. I may have gone overboard in trying to correct that by town reading you early. Maybe that was going on. Your end of day one posts is what made me think you were town, and whenever I did question my read on you or doubt when you had been away, I went back to those posts, which I thought were way more likely to come from a town you.
And I haven't been ignoring you this game. I thought we worked quite well together on the day that Tom was lynched. I was all set to vote proph that day because I thought that he and Vaimes were partnered. I thought that Tom wouldn't have counterclaimed someone like that as town and thought that there could be two town protectives. A lot of why I paid more attention to Tom was because of you. So that's twice that I listened to you and your Tom read.
And while you're talking about how this is not the lylo situation you would create, you think this is one I would? Axelrod who has been talking about the possibility of me being godfather for days and you who read me better than most who started talking about the possibility of me being a godfather yesterday? I have someone who's had me as a strong town read the entire game and I throw that away for what exactly again?
None of my concerns have anything to do with the townread you had on me early it has to do with the townread as a whole. It didn't feel natural. There wasn't an added element of interaction, it was just "nacho is town and then poof". I think this game started sour and maybe we never recovered but I hoped that maybe there would be a point where we actually got to work together and I spend the entirety of the day when people were ready to lynch Tom waiting for you and you popped up but it didn't feel like you were actually working with me; you feel like we worked well together, I really really don't.
I don't know why this LyLo situation exists but it's something that I hate and I'd like to think that you wouldn't leave me alive to this point but maybe you did? Why wouldn't you?
If you're confused, then why aren't you trying to figure anything out? Why does it feel like every time I take a step you do something but unless I'm the one moving forward you're nowhere to be found? Like right now you're saying you just want to wait for Axelrod to come back but you're not going "oh Nacho why are you pushing me that's a nonsense push?" and it feels like you keep saying that you're doubting me because I'm questioning you but never once has it felt like you're trying to come from my perspective and see why I'm doubting you; it doesn't feel like you're really paying attention to anything Axelrod is posting because you're hoping that he votes me and then you hammer and then at least this game is over. Like you say "okay I thought he was scum early" but what do you think of his recent play? What do you think of me now? Do you really think that this is my big meta burning scum game?
and mostly this game is just a reminder that i really need to fix how i approach you in games because this is ridiculous
i can see you leaving me alive because you want me to catch you, i can see you leaving me alive because you felt guilty killing me, i don't know why i'm alive right now because i certainly don't want to be but here i am. i expected maybe that if you were hard townreading me and you saw me voting you you'd have a realer reaction but you didn't and that sucks. i don't know how you aren't still hard town reading me but is that fair? probably not.
If I weren't still reading you as town I'd have knee-jerk voted you in response.
And it's not interpreting it as why would I question a town read, and I don't know where you get that assumption. I was asking in that specific instance, why should I have questioned my town read on you, specifically? I mean sure, maybe my early town read on you was a it premature and bull*****. I'll accept that. I got mad at you and felt bad that even though the way you attacked me upset me, not that you attacked me, but I got more mad than I think I normally would have because I was already upset and I felt bad and made people uncomfortable. I may have gone overboard in trying to correct that by town reading you early. Maybe that was going on. Your end of day one posts is what made me think you were town, and whenever I did question my read on you or doubt when you had been away, I went back to those posts, which I thought were way more likely to come from a town you.
And I haven't been ignoring you this game. I thought we worked quite well together on the day that Tom was lynched. I was all set to vote proph that day because I thought that he and Vaimes were partnered. I thought that Tom wouldn't have counterclaimed someone like that as town and thought that there could be two town protectives. A lot of why I paid more attention to Tom was because of you. So that's twice that I listened to you and your Tom read.
And while you're talking about how this is not the lylo situation you would create, you think this is one I would? Axelrod who has been talking about the possibility of me being godfather for days and you who read me better than most who started talking about the possibility of me being a godfather yesterday? I have someone who's had me as a strong town read the entire game and I throw that away for what exactly again?
None of my concerns have anything to do with the townread you had on me early it has to do with the townread as a whole. It didn't feel natural. There wasn't an added element of interaction, it was just "nacho is town and then poof". I think this game started sour and maybe we never recovered but I hoped that maybe there would be a point where we actually got to work together and I spend the entirety of the day when people were ready to lynch Tom waiting for you and you popped up but it didn't feel like you were actually working with me; you feel like we worked well together, I really really don't.
I don't know why this LyLo situation exists but it's something that I hate and I'd like to think that you wouldn't leave me alive to this point but maybe you did? Why wouldn't you?
I came back the day after deadline and feel like a jackass because I missed deadline as I thought it was the next day. I read end of day one and felt like an even bigger jackass when reading your posts and how you were trying to get the lynch on yourself or tom and telling me to town it up and make your death mean something. It reminded me of the time I've seen you ask people to vote you instead of your town reads or when you've ended day one ready to lynch yourself instead of end up with a no lynch. In Oakwood when you didn't do anything at the day one lynch I was freaked out because it didn't look anything like what I've seen in the past or here for what I was town reading you mostly for.
And it's not interpreting it as why would I question a town read, and I don't know where you get that assumption. I was asking in that specific instance, why should I have questioned my town read on you, specifically? I mean sure, maybe my early town read on you was a it premature and bull*****. I'll accept that. I got mad at you and felt bad that even though the way you attacked me upset me, not that you attacked me, but I got more mad than I think I normally would have because I was already upset and I felt bad and made people uncomfortable. I may have gone overboard in trying to correct that by town reading you early. Maybe that was going on. Your end of day one posts is what made me think you were town, and whenever I did question my read on you or doubt when you had been away, I went back to those posts, which I thought were way more likely to come from a town you.
And I haven't been ignoring you this game. I thought we worked quite well together on the day that Tom was lynched. I was all set to vote proph that day because I thought that he and Vaimes were partnered. I thought that Tom wouldn't have counterclaimed someone like that as town and thought that there could be two town protectives. A lot of why I paid more attention to Tom was because of you. So that's twice that I listened to you and your Tom read.
And while you're talking about how this is not the lylo situation you would create, you think this is one I would? Axelrod who has been talking about the possibility of me being godfather for days and you who read me better than most who started talking about the possibility of me being a godfather yesterday? I have someone who's had me as a strong town read the entire game and I throw that away for what exactly again?
None of my concerns have anything to do with the townread you had on me early it has to do with the townread as a whole. It didn't feel natural. There wasn't an added element of interaction, it was just "nacho is town and then poof". I think this game started sour and maybe we never recovered but I hoped that maybe there would be a point where we actually got to work together and I spend the entirety of the day when people were ready to lynch Tom waiting for you and you popped up but it didn't feel like you were actually working with me; you feel like we worked well together, I really really don't.
I don't know why this LyLo situation exists but it's something that I hate and I'd like to think that you wouldn't leave me alive to this point but maybe you did? Why wouldn't you?
I came back the day after deadline and feel like a jackass because I missed deadline as I thought it was the next day. I read end of day one and felt like an even bigger jackass when reading your posts and how you were trying to get the lynch on yourself or tom and telling me to town it up and make your death mean something. It reminded me of the time I've seen you ask people to vote you instead of your town reads or when you've ended day one ready to lynch yourself instead of end up with a no lynch. In Oakwood when you didn't do anything at the day one lynch I was freaked out because it didn't look anything like what I've seen in the past or here for what I was town reading you mostly for.
I mean I understand the reasoning I just don't understand the interactions that came with it.
Like, if you had a hard townread on me coming into LyLo, then really the only thing you need to do is get me to townread you. Why wouldn't you have faith that I would figure it out? Why wouldn't you push me or try to figure me out; why would you just leave me hanging like this?
Am I crazy for feeling abandoned? Am I doing a bad job explaining why I'm feeling weird on you? Are there things that you've done that I'm glossing over horribly?
This is probably the worst game I have ever played. I don't really know what to say. I did probably abandon you. I don't know. I don't really think I did, but wait do you realize this is the exact same line you used on me as scum in Oakwood? Like when I was trying to figure out your scum partner who you were bussing, the day after you made this whole post about how you felt abandoned.
Now I don't know what to think. Would you literally use the same exact scum tactics two games in a row in just a week's time?
I've been paranoid of you the entire game.
However, day 1 I was paranoid and giving you space, then Day 2 you were investigated by the cop. I haven't been seriously reading you since then.
I don't deny that specific piece of reasoning is fine and you're right that unwavering = shallow is not really a fantastic argument, but that's not really what I was trying to say. Your read on me just feels fake in retrospect, incomplete. Even when you're townreading me as hard as you were in GoT you strengthen it in little ways, reassure yourself that I'm not really fooling you, good stuff like that. You didn't here. And maybe it's not fair to expect you to keep up to that high standard of your typical read on me but it just seems fake.
The problem isn't that you're townreading me, it's mostly how you're townreading you.
Your read on me felt different in both of these games :/
Eh.
I don't really have strong responses to your points.
I just need you to help gamesolve because I'm flailing; the problem I have with you is pretty much entirely that your interactions with me have felt off all game and that your approach to Tom this whole game felt weird. I don't really have words or reasons for a real case I've just felt weird about you the whole game and was hoping I could clear you being town with the cop thing but I think Axel's points are genuine enough and I'm just hoping you can town hard enough so that I can go back to tunneling him.
No Lynch
This is what was going to happen anyway.
No lynch has occurred.
-
Another night to do as I please amidst the wolves.
That's fine with me.
-
It is now Night 5. Night actions are due within 72 hours of this post.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
And, all right Nacho, let's just see how Townie you've been.
And the thing about Nacho - this nagging feeling I've had for most of the game - is that it seems like there's very little he's done or said that I feel just couldn't have come from out of a scum mindset. And a lot of what he's posted/done that just fits right in there.
*Here we will acknowledge that Axelrod's feelings have not been spot on this game, which is undoubtedly one of the reasons Axelrod is still alive, but I think my reads tend to get more accurate the deeper in we go.*
Nacho opened the game on a questionable note when he adamantly refused to go along with the Name-claiming that everyone else was doing. For basically no good reason I could see. And moreover, he started throwing out false name-claims, apparently just to drive home the point that he wasn't going to play along. But why not? What was the deal? What he said was:
Then said:
Which, incidentally, is not the same thing.
Then the next thing he said (which might have been his last word on the subject, I'm not sure):
Eh. Kind of worth an given we now know they did have safe claims.
That's kind of another issue. Namely that Nacho seemed quite certain very early on that the Mafia did have safe claims. Which is another from me. Because I don't think that was an obvious assumption at all. Why should it have been? If you're playing a game in which the Mafia are "Pigs" and the Town are "Wolves", but the Wolves all have names that make them sound like Pigs, why do the Pigs need safe claims? Why can't they just have Pig names too?
Now, in hindsight (hey, a pun!) I can see why Iso would feel it necessary. Because even if the Town all have Pig names too and no one is getting caught out this game because they have a pig name, the scum wouldn't know that the Town had Pig names, at least at the beginning. And there could be potential for scum to get busted because of this (by false-claiming a Wolf-sounding name out of fear, maybe) or for Townies to get "cleared" due to this - not at all unlike what almost happened right at the start of the game. So if Iso gives the Pigs "safe" claims that are pig puns, then the scum know what's up right out the gate. Even if they don't technically need these safe claims. So I understand where Iso was coming from. What I question is Nacho's very early jump to that assumption before, I think, that was an obvious assumption to make. Mindset again.
But, back to refusing to play along with the Name claiming, I think, even assuming Nacho deduced early on that the scum must have safe claims for the above mentioned reasons, his behavior here just wasn't very townie. If you really think the names don't matter, why not "play along." And, frankly, if you are so certain about false claims being provided, shouldn't you be arguing that no one can be cleared even a little bit from the early name claiming/confusion. I went back and looked for this, to see if Nacho was being consistent here, and what I found was this (this is in response to a ZDS question to him about if Tammy was acting normally):
This is not consistent with a position of "Mafia have false claims. Mafia therefore know that the Town all have piggy-sounding pun names. Mafia should not be confused at all by what is going on here."
Then said this:
Which, while suggesting the Mafia have false claims and therefore no one should be cleared, still appears to be giving ZDS town-credit for coming out with the idea in the first place. This isn't totally inconsistent though. You could still think that scum, even knowing "what was up" might be shy about throwing it out there in their first post of the game. Not strong scum - which ZDS can certainly be - but still.
Then there was just the silly protest angle of it all. Didn't understand it then, and still don't now. If your actual rationale is: "I'm against name-claiming-to-try-and-break-the-game-in-principle" then this still seems like a poor way to make that protest. To make up a new name every time someone asks you your name? That's just kind of being an ***.
So, what I'm seeing are two different things going on here, two different rationalizations (or three even, if the last one is just "to have fun"), none one of which look particularly townie, right out the gate.
Obviously, just being anti-Tom doesn't prove anything (Vaimes was very anti-Tom too; busing is a thing; etc. etc.), but it's got to be a point in favor. So my real interest is, how did the anti-Tom-ness arrive, and how was it argued? Sometimes being too certain that someone is scum for weak reasons, (or, conversely, being too certain someone is town for weak reasons) can be a tell in and of itself. It's probably worth looking at how Tom responded to these pushes too.
Anyway, Nacho's first mention of Tom was in his second post of the game Here, where he questions Tom's statements of "I'm not super comfortable clearing anyone," and "I have super-strong opinions though." Fair enough. It's not like a big inconsistency or anything, but Nacho's not voting him for it either, just mentioning it, so, fine.
Nacho first real attack is on Tammy, talked about before. That doesn't last too long. Nacho and Tom have a small talk about Tammy though in the meantime, which is somewhat interesting in itself, in as much as Tom is expressing suspicion of Tammy in those posts - not super-strong suspicion, but has her in his ">randscum" grouping. But Nacho - who is voting Tammy - appears to be challenging Tom. And questioning Tom's basis for being suspicious of Tammy. Like, Tom doesn't have a good enough basis? Or that Tom ought to be using other reasons that he is not using?
Stuff like this:
In reference to another game they played where Tammy was Town. Nacho is arguing that Tom should be seeing a difference here.
It's just weird because, again, Nacho is voting Tammy, and Tom is expressing suspicion of Tammy (weak suspicion even), but Nacho doesn't like Tom's reason enough? It doesn't seem like the kind of thing that would even stand out to me at all if I was making a push on someone. Maybe if Tom were strongly attacking Tammy, or strongly defending Tammy, maybe there would be something there to note, one way or the other. But this?
Again, it's kind of just the mindset. I don't see where Townie-Nacho get suspicious vibes off Tom for those reasons.
Nacho then checks out for a bit, almost a full week. And it's when he comes back, around #514, that he becomes strongly anti-Tom. This is supposedly after review, so there's nothing suspicious about the timing of it. What are the reasons?
First, Nacho appears to be trying to get into Tom's mindset (a good thing), but concludes that Tom's opening remarks of the game - about the wincons being confusing to him and that his name makes him think Pig but that means he should be mafia - make more sense from a scum mindset than a Town mindset. And, frankly, I disagree. This despite the fact that Tom was scum. But I don't agree with Nacho's supposed logical reasoning process.
What Nacho says is, "if I was Town, and I got a role PM that was confusing to me in the way Tom has described (which was, in fact, the case for you Nacho, yes? I guess you have never said whether you were "confused" about your name or the flavor of this game, have you), then what I would do would be to assume that all Townies had the same problem, and then try to bait out reactions (in the way that ZDS/Seppel did). Conversely, if I was scum, and I had a false-claim, and therefore knew that the Town was going to be/could be confused about their names, I could see making a "play" like this to try and show everyone that I was in the same boat that they were in, i.e. that I was Town..."
The logic of this breaks down for me in a couple places. First in the "I would assume all townies were in the same boat as me." Which I probably wouldn't assume. Second in the "I would immediately try to use this to bait out reactions." Which springs out of the first assumption, but even if I had made that assumption I don't know that I would immediately leap to do what ZDS did. And third in the "scum-with-false-claim" assumption that Nacho is again making, I believe, before he has a good basis to believe that to be the case. At least, there were a couple other options which seemed to be possible to me.
Finally, it strikes me that there's something of an inconsistency here in that Nacho is saying this is what he thinks Tom should have done as Town, but this was not what Nacho himself did. And, in fact, was something that Nacho himself argued against us doing.
I've got to go again, and I'm at three posts, so I guess I'm not speaking again until someone else says something. I'm only just getting into the Tom/Nacho stuff.
This attack is particularly absurd.
You said that you're trying to look into scum and town mindset, correct? What does my approach to flavor claiming have anything to do with my town mindset versus my scum mindset?
You now know that scum had safe claims at the start of the game. This means that I could have just claimed my flavor and went along with it. Instead, I claimed three or four wolf-sounding names and complained about flavor claiming and I went on my merry little way. This is an irrational approach regardless of alignment. As scum, I have absolutely no motive whatsoever to approach the flavor claim in the way that I did. As town, I have absolutely no motive whatsoever to approach the flavor claim in the way that I did. Thus, you searching into my position on flavor claims and determining that my approach to them was irrational tells you absolutely nothing about whether I am likely town or likely scum - the only thing that it tells you is that my approach to the flavor claiming was irrational. You're absolutely right that my approach to claiming flavor was being an ass, but, once more with emphasis, I have absolutely no motivation as either alignment to just pop up and be an ass about it.
So, where are you coming up with "Nacho's approach to flavor claims is nonsense" --> "Nacho is scum"?
I don't have much time for mafia today, but I'll reread through you guys this weekend.
The pieces of inconsistent mindset that you pointed out... I believe mafia could still be confused on win condition even with safe claims, especially when their safe claims look like pig names, so I'm not really sure what you want me to say in response here...?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I could point out that no one in this entire game has the same incentive to leave you alive + Cop-cleared that Nacho has, and that it makes precisely 0 sense for me to have put myself in this position as scum, and it simply would not ever have happened. But somehow I feel like that argument is going to get slid by. Frankly I could argue the same thing to Nacho - that it makes 0 sense for scum me to put myself in this endgame with him and Tammy, but Nacho has already shown how he's ignoring that argument completely, which is just one more reason it's probably him.
Also state again for the record that if Tammy is a scum GF, got incredibly lucky with the Cop shot and is now doing this disappearing act (because what does it matter anymore?), I will be super disappointed.
I thought when I saw I was alive that it was because whichever of you left me alive was because you were going to push The Godfather angle. So I thought nacho was setting up for that yesterday with his interaction with me and I was ready to vote whoever did that. I waited to see if that would come but axel just kind of floated but not sure if that's to stir paranoia. But basically neither of you did that so I'm lost.
I am rereading over you guys and trying to make sense of this. Seppel had you as a decently strong town read day one when I thought you were scum before you went after Huntz and I thought we were both seeing something similar, and I wrote you off as town for a while after that because I thought you were the vig. Your push on Vaimes did look good, but you read the game after he was starting to get some heat, and considering the other wagon was the mafia bp, I can see you going to Vaimes to distract from the Tom wagon.
Nacho's end of day looked really good as did his Tom push yesterday when he could have pushed proph, though he is no stranger to bussing so he doesn't get as much credit for that as he normally would. But his pushing on me yesterday and getting after me for a town read that I don't understand why I should be questioning it has me scratching my head. But then if he wasn't going to push the godfather angle, which is what it looked like he was doing yesterday. But then he didn't do that, so I don't know.
This is more from #514 where Nacho has now become very anti-Tom. At one point Nacho quotes Vaimes and says he's a "big fan" of Vaimes and his Tom read. I wouldn't care so much about his being a big fan of Vaimes at this point in the game, but the "read" that Vaimes is giving on Tom here is from post #107, which is stupid early:
And also is not actually much of a "read" at all. It's like a little meta discussion where Vaimes says that people who are Townreading Tom are doing it too easily. Because Tom has been mis-read before. Ok? None of that has anything to do with anything. Like it maybe says more about the people who are stupidly town-reading Tom then it says about Tom himself. The only part of this which is even a tiny bit on point is where he says he doesn't understand Tom's votes. That could maybe be relevant - if Vaimes was doing anything to follow it up or try and figure Tom out. Which he wasn't.
The short of it is that there is nothing here for Nacho to be a "big fan" of, especially as it relates to Tom.
Then this part, which is more of his Tom issues:
Basically this is mostly a meta-argument. "(Town)Tom looks at motivations...Tom knows Tammy and knows she's really Town when she's Town..." And that last bit which is actually just gobbly-gook. Town!Tom is weird as a side effect but scum!Tom uses weirdness to try and survive.
Like, these are kind of unassailable positions because they aren't based on anything other than Nacho's personal opinion on how Tom the person is and on what Tom the person should and should not know.
There's (again) a tiny bit here which is game-related, which is the part about how Tom's position re: Tammy/Mato and their being necessary scum mislynch targets. I talked about that before too. But it seems a small part of the whole.
This is more meta, with a little bit of game-related where he says Tom's case on Seppel is "not a good case," and is a "lazy as hell push." Okay? But my feeling is that this isn't (shouldn't have been) enough to make you all gung-ho-anti-Tom. It just wasn't that much.
Then there was his actual big Tom case from #547 that I already talked about before. At least I talked about some of it. I was reading it then to see if it was hyped up and full of misrepressentations and bad arguments. I concluded that it wasn't, though a lot of the points Nacho was making I didn't think were particularly good. It's easy to say, in hindsight, why that was.
Looking back I do think it weird how on Tom Nacho got by the end of the day. Like the whole, it's me or him! One of us is dying! To the point he threatened to "full claim and self vote" in a suicide mission effort to have Tom get lynched the next day (which fails for the obvious reason that, even if Nacho flipped Town, that would hardly prove Tom was scum. Only that he was sincere in his beliefs. Town have incorrect but sincere beliefs all the time. Why should town-Nacho really think that his death would guarantee a Tom death tomorrow?)
Regardless, this is quite a strong opinion here.
So, I wanted to see how Nacho picked up this thread the next game day, given we lynched Vaimes on D2. And then we lynched ZDS on D3 based in large part on Tom's counter-claim. What was Nacho saying about Tom then?
He didn't vote Tom immediately D2. It was about his 3rd post on the day, which isn't a big deal. He then does continue his push on Tom in #1021, which is mostly a rehash of what he has previously said, but also fine. It's all Tom, Tom, Tom. Right on through the Vaimes lynch. Which itself is barely commented on or even acknowledged by Nacho as it is happening. This is interesting to me because, while I can accept that Nacho thought Tom was obv-scum and was basically the only person Nacho wanted lynched the whole Day, shouldn't he have acknowledged the Vaimes wagon/said/done something there? If he felt like we were about to mis-lynch Vaimes over Tom, given the strength of this Tom read, I feel like he should/would have been raging even more at the stupidity of what was going on. Trying to avoid this horrible mis-lynch over the obviously scummy Tom. But there is almost nothing here about Vaimes at all.
And then there was D3.
D3 Nacho is AWOL for a week. By the time he makes his first post, ZDS has already claimed and Tom has counter-claimed. Nacho comes down...against ZDS. The full post:
And the problem here, obviously, is that this throws out everything Nacho has been screaming for the past two game days. Tom is scum! Tom is scum! (Scum is lynched). Well, maybe Tom's not scum....This has been practically Nacho's only scum read, but it's just evaporated in the face of this claim? Nacho even apologizes to Tom, "I'm sorry for never trusting you..." And says "Axel, Seppel, Tom all look behaviorally pretty town to me."
I just have trouble buying this turn-around from what came before. Just because of a counter-claim? Where you even said that the claim itself isn't alignment indicative? You have to acknowledge here, Nacho, that what this looks like is scum who, having had one buddy go down, isn't eager to see his second buddy go down immediately afterwards, even if it means completely reversing himself on his prior opinion.
Then there was D4. Now, here, (I pointed this out before too) if there was EVER a time for Nacho to be anti-Tom it's now. He was super anti-Tom D1-D2. He reversed himself D3 due to the counter-claim, but, turns out, ZDS was Town, so now it ought to be freaking obvious that Tom is scum and super easy to go back to his earlier read. But he didn't.
Not right away. Not to pat myself on the back too much because I've been wrong plenty this game, but that was super obvious and easy for me. But at the start of D4, Nacho was still hesitant. He went off on me. He said I was being too hasty. He said this "requires a second look." He argued strongly that the mechanics/role balance did not make Tom auto-scum.
Really?
Until he finally comes around and votes Tom characterizing it as an "obvious" vote that should get done. Now I guess we're back to obvious.
He then goes off on a long series of posts which I can now characterize as him attempting to set the stage for yesterday/today. Because he's been "town-reading" me recently, but he's also been town reading everyone left alive, and I guess he needs a new suspect. Which becomes me. Who he will proceed to vote immediately the next day (with no further need to take a "second look" or whatever it was that he needed before lynching Tom.)
Axelrod, I'll respond to your recent posts when I get home but if you think there exists a world where I leave Tammy as a cop clear to LyLo, you're wrong. If you think there is a world where I leave Tammy alive as a cop clear to LyLo to somehow mislynch her, you're wrong. If you think that I decide to bus Tom for the entire game except immediately after he counterclaims a townie (because he's going to survive the day, right), you're wrong. I think that your case on me is absolutely bat***** crazy (why would Nacho ever say "**** you, lynch me or lynch tom? that's not rational) and I think it shows how you don't understand how
Tammy can read me better than most; would you leave someone alive who has approximately 50 more games than everyone else has with you and has never ended up strongly townreading you any of the times you were scum against them? If I left Tammy alive because she had such a strong townread on me, it makes absolutely no sense for me to go weird on her at endgame and start suspecting her. If I was setting her up to be mislynched, 1) it makes no sense for me to do it now when she has a cop innocent on her and 2) it makes no sense for me to go after you as hard as I did yesterday if my master plan was to mislynch you.
If I was bussing Tom the entire game, I'd be doing it to get credit, yes? To say "oh, I put Tom in danger when he shouldn't have been in danger". If Tom and I were scum, I put both of us in danger by the end of Day 1 in order to get credit. I kept pushing him throughout the entirety of day 2.
Then, after he counterclaimed a townie, after it is pretty ******* clear that there is basically a 0% chance that no one is getting lynched, that's when I decide to defend him? And instead of pushing an alternate wagon (and thus increase the chances of him surviving), I just... defend him? This doesn't seem the slightest bit stupid to you?
Is there any reason why you haven't answered my question about your thought process on Tom Day 1 and why you were ready to no lynch instead of lynch him?
If Tammy is scum, then I've been getting weird vibes from her the entire game. I liked her being confused about win conditions early but it's not like that's something that she couldn't fake/it's not like it's something that couldn't be genuine, and... there's not really anything else that really resonated with me from her posting, it feels like we just haven't been able to click the entire game. I guess it's not really fair, but she knows that I've been nursing this paranoia of her for a really long time and my hope was that eventually she'd make an effort to connect with me in thread and fix it but it doesn't feel like she's done it despite a couple opportunities here and there, it feels like she's acting dumb with regards to me and the town read; I know she understands being creeped out by a townread, and I don't like her interactions with me over tom; I'm guessing that's probably self-centered but it didn't feel like she was interested in working with me at all.
I'm happy to give her time but game ends on the 29th, I'm probably not waiting past tomorrow night and if my read has been wrong for all of these weeks (months? jesus it feels like I've been in this game a long time) I really doubt that I'm suddenly going to get it right in 72 hours and I'm not really sure it matters since Axelrod is probably going to quickhammer me anyways but w/e. That's where I stand right now.
Well then if you're town we lose.
And I haven't been ignoring you this game. I thought we worked quite well together on the day that Tom was lynched. I was all set to vote proph that day because I thought that he and Vaimes were partnered. I thought that Tom wouldn't have counterclaimed someone like that as town and thought that there could be two town protectives. A lot of why I paid more attention to Tom was because of you. So that's twice that I listened to you and your Tom read.
And while you're talking about how this is not the lylo situation you would create, you think this is one I would? Axelrod who has been talking about the possibility of me being godfather for days and you who read me better than most who started talking about the possibility of me being a godfather yesterday? I have someone who's had me as a strong town read the entire game and I throw that away for what exactly again?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
but i feel like i'm the only one who will make this decision
axelrod at least feels like he's trying to figure it out. tammy doesn't. tammy feels like she's just going through the motions which i am too but i guess on my part it at least feels different from that. i'm pretty ready to get flamed by everyone available who tells me the setup is horrible if tammy is town but here we are. the heart wants what it wants although it hates that's what it wants.
Vote: Tammy
if you're town i'm sorry
if you're scum i'm sorry
Regardless, I'll wait for Axel. If he's scum good job. If not, I'll make my argument then and good job on fooling the hell out of me from your day one appeal.
i don't think it's fair to put the responsibility on me for this
i don't know why if you're not town you're not telling me to unvote
i mostly just hate this game and want it to be over
i can't really read you.
i said as much after you fooled me in dover boys.
i guess i hoped that if you were town here you would have at least started looking into axelrod, i hoped that you would help me out of the weird paranoia funk that you were in but you didn't do that but i guess it's not fair that i don't know how to communicate when i want these things to happen earlier and i guess it's mostly just that you feel fake
i can see you leaving me alive because you want me to catch you, i can see you leaving me alive because you felt guilty killing me, i don't know why i'm alive right now because i certainly don't want to be but here i am. i expected maybe that if you were hard townreading me and you saw me voting you you'd have a realer reaction but you didn't and that sucks. i don't know how you aren't still hard town reading me but is that fair? probably not.
I told you if you voted me and you were town the game would be over and we would lose.
What more do you want me to do. I put the responsibility on you because you ignored my response to you to just vote me.
I want this game to be over too. I'm mostly just confused and don't know what to do here. I've had you as a strong town read all game and whether or not you like it I felt like I had pretty good reason to, but you started getting after me for it and I don't know if you were manipulating me or now if my original read on Axel was right.
If you feel good about it, own it. I'll wait on Axel to see if you're scum or if the game continues.
None of my concerns have anything to do with the townread you had on me early it has to do with the townread as a whole. It didn't feel natural. There wasn't an added element of interaction, it was just "nacho is town and then poof". I think this game started sour and maybe we never recovered but I hoped that maybe there would be a point where we actually got to work together and I spend the entirety of the day when people were ready to lynch Tom waiting for you and you popped up but it didn't feel like you were actually working with me; you feel like we worked well together, I really really don't.
I don't know why this LyLo situation exists but it's something that I hate and I'd like to think that you wouldn't leave me alive to this point but maybe you did? Why wouldn't you?
If I weren't still reading you as town I'd have knee-jerk voted you in response.
I came back the day after deadline and feel like a jackass because I missed deadline as I thought it was the next day. I read end of day one and felt like an even bigger jackass when reading your posts and how you were trying to get the lynch on yourself or tom and telling me to town it up and make your death mean something. It reminded me of the time I've seen you ask people to vote you instead of your town reads or when you've ended day one ready to lynch yourself instead of end up with a no lynch. In Oakwood when you didn't do anything at the day one lynch I was freaked out because it didn't look anything like what I've seen in the past or here for what I was town reading you mostly for.
I mean I understand the reasoning I just don't understand the interactions that came with it.
Like, if you had a hard townread on me coming into LyLo, then really the only thing you need to do is get me to townread you. Why wouldn't you have faith that I would figure it out? Why wouldn't you push me or try to figure me out; why would you just leave me hanging like this?
Now I don't know what to think. Would you literally use the same exact scum tactics two games in a row in just a week's time?