And to be fair, since I figured out who Necarg was, I was looking for specific instances of coordination between Shock and Necarg and <somebody else>. I haven't found anything. So I'd don't think it's as simple as masons again.
* Cythare pulls out three green balls and puts them in front of Mindreaver, then pulls out a blue, a green, and a red ball and displays them in front of Mindreaver, then just pulls out an assortment of balls and rolls them towards Mindreaver. *
Well, it hardly would if most of our players are in NA. I went to bed at 4:00 am Eastern/1:00 am Pacific and it is now 11:00 am Eastern / 8:00 am Pacific. I would like to respond to your post against me, and unfortunately the players I want to case aren't here and don't have enough content to case (Rhand, DoTA). We're probably going to have to start lynching/vigging through the lurkers to find scum. Again.
In asking why he's doing GJ's think he just says "You are right, but he's not here." I don't get why town would want to introduce something like this.
I read DoTA's post as joking/RVS and responded likewise. It didn't mean anything (to me).
Quote from TappingStones »
In that same post there is a strange interaction with D_V. Crystal says "You might be right on Chris. I bet this is within his scum spectrum, too, though." Now SC has only made what, one post? Certainly, just about any opening sentence is inside of someone's town and scum spectrum. It's like he just wants to find common ground and something to latch onto to discuss.
Sir Chris had three or four posts when I responded to D_V. Not one. If it felt like I was trying to latch onto to something to create a conversation from... well, yeah. I was. Isn't that the point? To talk, discuss, form reads, etc.? I'm not here to watch everyone else post but I'm generally horrible at conversation. Like I said before, I'm an insincere sort of guy. Do you not remember my entrance in GoldenEye where practically everyone said "oh, that was awful"?
Quote from TappingStones »
Says I'm being "harsh" to Scum!Fable. Says the things Fable is doing aren't alignment indicative and gives a slight town read. For the sad souls that are trying to scum read me do you really think this back and forth with Fable is scum on scum? You will obviously have to justify that read. But let's look at some more early Crystal interactions with Fable.
Yeah, hindsight is 20/20. I defended the evil scum!Fable from Sir TappingStones the Hero and Conquering Champion. But... that doesn't mean I'm scum. In fact, you fail to even explain how this is necessarily an indication of an alignment between us and instead segue into defending yourself.
Quote from TappingStones »
Fable hits back at D_V for suspecting Crystal. When I read this it gave me the same feeling as when I read Crystal's slight defense of Fable. Like they want to keep each other out of trouble but are careful not to get too wrapped up in it.
Sir Chris also hit D_V at the same time for the same post. Do you think my question to D_V at the time was not fair? If you think it was fair to ask him to answer the question, what makes Fable's post a defense of a scum buddy and not just scum trying to look like town?
Quote from TappingStones »
Another defense of Fable. There is a pattern you will see develop through day one where Fable spends the vast majority of his defenses on Crystal and crystal does likewise.
Actually... no, I don't think so, but others will have to iso for themselves. This one thing with D_V is the only time Fable defends me, and he only does it in two posts. A single data point (or even a couple) does not a pattern make. In fact, by this point I think we've cleared all of my defenses of Fable, as well. So you have my thing where I defended Fable from you in the very early game and Fable's thing where he was trying to look townie by making D_V answer my completely fair question and showing him why he's wrong to scum read me for that post.
Further, I think if you go back you'll see I spent as much time defending Kosa as I did Fable. Doesn't mean I was right to do so -- clearly Fable was scum, but it wasn't as obvious back then.
Quote from TappingStones »
Ok, this one I feel is very damning. Kosa has just recently said that TS and Fable are town. And then Crystal asks if we look like town vs. town. He sees that the town reads have been given and wants to get a yes answer out of kosa which can get Fable out of trouble. Why would you ask a question you already know the answer to? And why ask Kosa this?
... because I forgot to refresh my browser tab and he ninja'd me. If you read that post in full, I was responding to his #113 where he says you were fine but doesn't take a stance on Fable. Look at the time stamps, they're like ten minutes apart or something. I often leave my browser tabs open and forget to refresh the page before posting.
Quote from TappingStones »
This felt unreasonably stretch to me. Trying hard not to consider people scum that he, himself says could normally be scum.
I wasn't "trying hard." That was literally what I thought. It can indicate an alignment but I thought maybe it didn't because they were new to us and not each other. Context is important when considering the motivations of others.
Quote from TappingStones »
Another one that just comes off as weird verbiage to me. Checking to see if Fable is clear? It's a very innocent looking statement but the mindset is the most important thing. Why is he so concerned if I'm still scum reading Fable?
If you go back through those posts and read them in context, I'm sure you'll notice that you never mentioned Fable again after asking me what I thought of his interaction with KoD. I was concerned that you were being so hands-off with one of your potential scum reads -- during GoldenEye your opinion on a player was almost always pretty clear and I had no idea what you actually thought of Fable at that juncture.
Now, if you'll read through my posts to Fable and Tom when the were pushing me as the lynch for being "Borg," I'm sure you'll agree an alignment between us is ridiculous -- unless I'm such a skilled player after GoldenEye that I could fake this with a scum buddy:
@Fable: Keeping the town from chasing its tail is a bad look? What's your great plan for catching the cult then with no interactions between members and not even a flip to tell you that one exists?
Gonna just lynch me and hope I flip Borg Leader? What happens when I flip town? You led us around by the nose all day to a mislynch on me... because I was trying to keep you from leading us around by the nose to a mislynch.
Honestly, if I was the cult leader I wouldn't be touching this conversation. I'm trying to scumhunt, what are you doing? Trying to WIFOM your way to a mislynch on me while coasting? Want to talk about bad looks, that's pretty much the worst one possible.
In fact, you aren't even voting me. Your vote is still on the cat you said you didn't really want dead. But I'm the cult leader, apparently - shouldn't your vote be on me? I'm not sure what to make of this play here.
Then he's just Bulletproof Town in a Specialty. Which would be rather annoying for the mafia team, granted, IF he was actually scumhunting and being townie. Because then he'd be be a good town member that they can't get rid of. Instead he's gone and poured wine all over his slot by pushing for cult hunting and then claiming unprompted.
Which makes the least sense because he knows the Borg can be deprogrammed so why would he be so worried about them that he's willing to lynch essentially at random hoping to get them before they convert anyone over likely mafia? Plus his own math falls flat then. His only night action is to deprogram, meaning we can lynch cult and he can deprogram one each night, so the cult can be whittled down same as the mafia.
... Which I guess I would take as a compliment even if it isn't true.
And to be fair, since I figured out who Necarg was, I was looking for specific instances of coordination between Shock and Necarg and <somebody else>. I haven't found anything. So I'd don't think it's as simple as masons again.
* Cythare pulls out three green balls and puts them in front of Mindreaver, then pulls out a blue, a green, and a red ball and displays them in front of Mindreaver, then just pulls out an assortment of balls and rolls them towards Mindreaver. *
@tapping is this the "something different" you were going to try this game?
because ive only seen you lie in a mafia game to keep yourself from getting NKed, not the other way around.
@cyth, the only other meaning I can gleam is "that's what these mean" but the associations brin added to the other colors were further vary degrees of read. If that isn't what you meant either, then I'm at a loss.
@MR, do you often assume that reasonable people believe nobody says what they mean? Your argument is you assume I meant something other than what I actually said yet have provided no reason to assume as much. Tell me again how that makes me the scummy one?
As for Fable, I'd like to hear your fool proof five point plan on determining and verifying the exact point fable decided to umpromptedly claim scum day 1, as well as verification of which posts he made in earnest and which posts he was messing with town. I won't hold my breath on that one either though because we both know it isn't possible. So as an alternative to that I'll let you just explain to me why you think it's better play for town to focus their time on analyzing a player who opted to claim scum and openly admitted to trying to create WIFOM in the thread rather than analyzing those players that are still living and how they interacted with fable.
As for TS, there's a method to my madness. I don't expect you to understand the unspoken things, but as you said yourself you don't have a problem with what I did, but who I did it to. And I have a problem with that.
Let's look at things. I was suspicious of TS yesterday. Fable claimed scum and was obv lynched. SC and goose died in the night as town. So which of these three deaths is supposed to ease my suspicion of TS? What exactly is it that you think I should have seen so as to not still be suspicious of TS?
@shock, as I got into a little bit above, fable was not shy about saying he was intentionally trying to screw with town's mind. So what he was doing was no secret. Why he chose to do it is the irrational part. But the issue then becomes when did he start. It is my belief that analyzing how other people interacted with fable is a much more productive use of time than analysing the things fable said.
@DV, top scum reads, in no particular order or severity are TS (will get into this after he finishes his recapping), yourself (for the reasons I stated yesterday), DotA (for reasons stated yesterday). Tom has pinged me as odd. Subtle little things that I'll continue to watch.
@tapping is this the "something different" you were going to try this game?
because ive only seen you lie in a mafia game to keep yourself from getting NKed, not the other way around.
No. I think I said that in the sign-ups for 3 little Pigs, right?
I remember very early on Sc schooling someone, perhaps in Predator or Stargate(can't remember which) about how never lying as town is a relic and he explained a bit on that. After that I've played with IABM and Seppel several times who regularly lie. So I've gotten accustomed to the idea of it. I've had plenty of time during these long games to think about what situations I would want to lie as town and the main two reasons are these; as a power role I would be willing to lie to keep me from getting NK'd this includes the options to claim vanilla, claim some sort of protection, lie about my PR to make it seem less powerful, as a vanilla(or close approximation) I would be willing to lie for the reason I've already stated. To make myself seem like a valuable role so that eventually I would eat a NK over potentially someone who could swing the game more with their PR. This doesn't mean I actively want to die as vanilla, it just means that I recognize and would love to add that kind of value to an otherwise mediocre role.
I'm not sure how helpful that is but I think those two philosophies on lying are fine and often correct. I think people should try not to lie in a way that would screw over their team after the flip, for example if I make some kind of claim that can't be confirmed after I die, then you are creating conditions of negative impact and those should be minimized.
tapping could be scum. dont get me wrong.
somebody show me.
What do you think about Killjoy? Or my notes on Silver? You mentioned that you targeted silver last night and it doesn't seem like you are very occupied with him even after my PBPR on him. Am I just off on Silver?
Watch the wagon on me, too. There are likely to be some good interactions gained there. Some of the people against me are not town. And I'll be damned if we don't set up a sick POE by the end of today.
To be fair, TS lied out of his ass in GoldenEye trying to dodge the night kill as the cop. Didn't work, but he did it.
Still suspicious. Especially of his motive trying to tie me to Fable. But it also wouldn't be the first or last time someone looked to hard to find a pattern that wasn't there.
I'm about where Tom is, I think. It's plausible but I'm not convinced.
ive completely forgotten killjoy, but i have fair confidence ill be able to figure out his mindset after just being scum with him for approximately 4 years.
To be fair, TS lied out of his ass in GoldenEye trying to dodge the night kill as the cop. Didn't work, but he did it.
Still suspicious. Especially of his motive trying to tie me to Fable. But it also wouldn't be the first or last time someone looked to hard to find a pattern that wasn't there.
I'm about where Tom is, I think. It's plausible but I'm not convinced.
Why is it suspicious for me to see connections between you and Fable? It's not like I made it cryptic or anything I linked all the posts I was interested in for everyone to see. I don't like people suspecting me either but at the end of the day we HAVE TO suspect people to win. Scum just have to hang out and survive long enough to reach parity. We have no such luxury. So if I'm wrong about you then I mean what would you like me to say, sorry for scum hunting? Look at my review of you from an outsiders point of view.
And of course it's plausible that I'm scum let's be realistic, it's also plausible that you and/or Tom are scum. I have no such luxury as the "classified files" I had in Goldeneye to cop people. so I'm going to be running people through the ringer, some of them are going to be town(or not, maybe I'm all gas this game?) no one whether scum or town is going to feel great about some one bringing a case on them, BUT that's how I've always played and I have not lost to scum EVER. I have 7 completed games against the scum team and they've never smelled a hint of victory against me. Taste it!
And they aren't going to win this game either.
@Crystal-I ask that you to go through interactions with the dead players and help me find scum. Like, that's what we are here for. See, town benefits from people being active and participating. It's hard to keep up the charade post after post after post so scum try to find spots where they can V/LA, or be "busy", "no internet", etc. It's a grind for them. For us not so much. Keep your nose to the ground and sniff 'em out.
I'm suspicious of your motive for doing it because it feels so thin to me. Almost like you're assuming I'm scummy and twisting the posts and ignoring context and later interactions to make your case.
As for interactions with dead players, interactions with dead town are almost worthless unless you can prove who was which kill, as me and Mindreaver were discussing earlier, and Fable is a morass of lies. I think our best tool at the moment is Fable's wagon. Out of ten votes there's virtually guaranteed to be at least one scum bussing.
I'd like everyone to look at the placement and timing of votes on that wagon. Spoiler: I'm voting for the worst one. I'll explain more when I get back to my desk and can access my spreadsheet and notes.
I'm suspicious of your motive for doing it because it feels so thin to me. Almost like you're assuming I'm scummy and twisting the posts and ignoring context and later interactions to make your case.
As for interactions with dead players, interactions with dead town are almost worthless unless you can prove who was which kill, as me and Mindreaver were discussing earlier, and Fable is a morass of lies. I think our best tool at the moment is Fable's wagon. Out of ten votes there's virtually guaranteed to be at least one scum bussing.
I'd like everyone to look at the placement and timing of votes on that wagon. Spoiler: I'm voting for the worst one. I'll explain more when I get back to my desk and can access my spreadsheet and notes.
Actually, the read is completely generated from the reread. I wasn't on you day one. Once I saw the flips from night one I went back to do some reading. I posted some initial POE scum list and posted some of the details as time allowed. You say my case is narrow, ok so present some better ones. Lest you note very few people are doing much. My activity level will be high regardless, some of these folks are going to go into day three and four as virtual unknowns, but you guys(not literally you) want to spend all of day two chasing the guy that's actually playing to win?
She starts by running out of the room with a white ball and leaves one by Sir Chris's corpse.
She then comes back into the room and sets one next to herself.
She then rolls one towards Wheat_Grinder.
She then rolls one towards TappingStones.
She then rolls one to D_V.
She then rolls one to Silvercrys.
She then rolls one to Mindreaver.
She then rolls one to Necarg.
Finally, she rolls one to Fable's corpse. *
No, I'd rather keep my eye on you and analyze Fable's wagon. Like I said.
You are refusing at looking at any other players? What? And you call me making a case against you suspicious? At least I'm looking at multiple people and have many posts for reference. What's the payoff for tunneling one player?
* Cythare rolls a black ball at tomsloger's feet and then bites his ankle.
He places nine white balls in a line, then places a black ball behind each, followed by a tenth black ball at the end of the line of black balls, then places the hammer in front of the tenth black ball, then moves the hammer away from the balls. *
@tapping did you have a plan for if someone else was spock?
Yeah, I did. That was the idea behind time-traveling Spock. Though I did consider that I might just come clean if it was causing issues. As I said, it was more to increase value from my slot not to create WIFOM.
Aight, I'll talk to the cat again.
But eventually yall are gonna have to figure it out or killing me will take out two town analysts.
Do you think the votes themselves look townie (football), or just the players involved (baseball).
Either way I vaguely disagree wrt necarg
Oh but you rolled a red ball at necarg...
Hey, does anyone have the votal? Me and the cat want to see it.
Was there only 9 votes and it should have been 10?
* Cythare runs over to tomsloger with a football and a baseball and throws both of them away from him and grabs a black ball of yarn. She then jumps up and down and points at the two rows of balls again, then begins to purr.
She then runs to the yarn basket and comes back with a blue ball and a red ball and looks over at Necarg while pawing at Tom's leg. *
No, I'd rather keep my eye on you and analyze Fable's wagon. Like I said.
You are refusing at looking at any other players? What? And you call me making a case against you suspicious? At least I'm looking at multiple people and have many posts for reference. What's the payoff for tunneling one player?
Where did I say I wanted to only look at you? I'm wary of you. Suspicious and nothing more. To quote Half_Time, "IGMEOY". I'm not pushing a case, I'm watching to see if one develops.
So, first order of business is this: @Q or The Prophet: Could you confirm Fable's lynch was legal?
I mean, it's pretty obvious he was dead regardless, but either someone on the wagon is a double voter or the lynch was a mistake. It happened pretty quick.
Next, what are the chances a random grouping of eight players contains one scum? 19 players gives us probably 4 or 5 scum. Assuming worst statistical chance (4 scum) gives us a 21% chance of any individual player flipping scum at random. 21% of 8 is 1.68, which means on average there will be between one and two scum in a random group of 8.
Finally, of the eight players on the wagon (besides Fable himself), who is plausible scum on behavior? It was pretty much just Necarg, and I still think he has a much better chance of flipping scum than TS does.
Now, the people whose votes were hanging out doing nothing...
Brinatoo
DoTArchon
tomsloger
Kosakosa
Half_Time
Killjoy
Shockwave07
So, let's vig/lynch/case this group. If you're in this group and town, post some stuff so we know not to lynch you. Except Tom, I just don't know what to think about Tom.
No, I'd rather keep my eye on you and analyze Fable's wagon. Like I said.
You are refusing at looking at any other players? What? And you call me making a case against you suspicious? At least I'm looking at multiple people and have many posts for reference. What's the payoff for tunneling one player?
Where did I say I wanted to only look at you? I'm wary of you. Suspicious and nothing more. To quote Half_Time, "IGMEOY". I'm not pushing a case, I'm watching to see if one develops.
So, first order of business is this: @Q or The Prophet: Could you confirm Fable's lynch was legal?
I mean, it's pretty obvious he was dead regardless, but either someone on the wagon is a double voter or the lynch was a mistake. It happened pretty quick.
Next, what are the chances a random grouping of eight players contains one scum? 19 players gives us probably 4 or 5 scum. Assuming worst statistical chance (4 scum) gives us a 21% chance of any individual player flipping scum at random. 21% of 8 is 1.68, which means on average there will be between one and two scum in a random group of 8.
Finally, of the eight players on the wagon (besides Fable himself), who is plausible scum on behavior? It was pretty much just Necarg, and I still think he has a much better chance of flipping scum than TS does.
Now, the people whose votes were hanging out doing nothing...
Brinatoo
DoTArchon
tomsloger
Kosakosa
Half_Time
Killjoy
Shockwave07
So, let's vig/lynch/case this group. If you're in this group and town, post some stuff so we know not to lynch you. Except Tom, I just don't know what to think about Tom.
I asked you to look at my killjoy post and to make your own scum cases on people. So when you said "No, I'm keeping my eye on you..." It came across that you are JUST looking at me. That's what I was confused about.
Let's not throw a personal bias into there just yet (since you're taking away my top borg read, and my top scum read lol). Lets look at the whole list of people not on the wagon if we're going to do that.
The point is to PoE them since the wagon is almost entirely town. You check the wagon and then use behavior to narrow it down.
I don't personally think they're scum. Kosa admitted he was Borg, but I bet he's 7 of 9 or something. I've been leaning town on him virtually all game and I don't think we need him to claim any further than he has already. If a sizeable portion of player want him dead for being Borg, we should probably lynch him now and have done with it before he gets to MyLo and loses us the game because of it.
Half_Time is a mindset read for me, but I'll go back through your case and his iso to see if that changes things. I admit I can't quite remember specifically why I'm leaning town on him and I should probably reread to check.
If you want to look at them (as well as KoD, whose vote was also dangling on DoTA), feel free. Personally, I'll be concentrating on the smaller list and leaving my vote on Necarg (after I check Killjoy for TS and HT for you).
Silver, you just hopped around on ideas.... Check yoself before you reck yoself
Currently looking at the Wagon because (and I forgot I saw this when I was reading while camping/figuring out night action, but yea I saw the wagon had some inconsistencies and ended early) strange stuff with Necarg and TS(I thought he didn't register a non-bold vote and continues to do so this way) Just checked the rules and rule 3. Votes must be in BOLD or they will not be counted. Unvoting is not required, but is appreciated. ---- I'm confused by the last past, we can all vote multiple times or maybe it's talking about bolding for unvoting? Basically wtf with that wording but vote TappingStones to test. I think it's intended that the mods didn't post the wagon because someone has an ability for it.
Hey W_G, you should've put the pieces together with flavoring like that and ATLEAST asked Necarg if this was him that roleblocked you... yaknow so we can hold him to that or if someone has the ability to write their flavor on the block and paint Necarg as shady. So anyway: Necarg- Did you block Wheat_Grinder?
Also, I still think a flavor-miller should give Kosa an incentive to at least figure out the flavor behind his role like a good towny.... It shouldn't be far-fetched for Kosa to pull a Gambit like this, for example, when I was reading through the Fable claim/WIFOM(I saw it was night when I got to the forum and wanted to get to where I left off for flow-of-game and perhaps a different opinion and weigh my read/not be insta-biased) and thought Fable was still just ******* with us... I can say I've never seen play like this before and won't listen to my gut on crap like that because a townie should never claim scum. @Kosa: Atleast elaborate on, and make it clear that with your ability(ies) you will flavor-convert X to Borg. Because you aren't denying this part of the conversation with Cythare. That's another reason why we are questioning you.
The point is to PoE them since the wagon is almost entirely town. You check the wagon and then use behavior to narrow it down.
I don't personally think they're scum. Kosa admitted he was Borg, but I bet he's 7 of 9 or something. I've been leaning town on him virtually all game and I don't think we need him to claim any further than he has already. If a sizeable portion of player want him dead for being Borg, we should probably lynch him now and have done with it before he gets to MyLo and loses us the game because of it.
Half_Time is a mindset read for me, but I'll go back through your case and his iso to see if that changes things. I admit I can't quite remember specifically why I'm leaning town on him and I should probably reread to check.
If you want to look at them (as well as KoD, whose vote was also dangling on DoTA), feel free. Personally, I'll be concentrating on the smaller list and leaving my vote on Necarg (after I check Killjoy for TS and HT for you).
I'm less concerned about Kosa. He had an interesting D1, but the timing of his borg claim was definitely pro-town, as he was in no danger of being caught. I'm concerned about why he targeted cythere. I'd like a better explanation than I've been given, even if it's sufficiently vague to avoid outing his ability.
On Half-Time, do an ISO for the game. I think it speaks for itself. But ask yourself afterwards, what has he done? What are his reads? And more specifically, what has he done to figure those reads out. He says "top scum reads, in no particular order or severity are TS (will get into this after he finishes his recapping), <D_V> (for the reasons I stated yesterday), DotA (for reasons stated yesterday). Tom has pinged me as odd. Subtle little things that I'll continue to watch." He's not advancing these cases. He's made no progress in two days. Look at the topic's he's choosing to engage in instead. This is scum.
The point is to PoE them since the wagon is almost entirely town. You check the wagon and then use behavior to narrow it down.
I don't personally think they're scum. Kosa admitted he was Borg, but I bet he's 7 of 9 or something. I've been leaning town on him virtually all game and I don't think we need him to claim any further than he has already. If a sizeable portion of player want him dead for being Borg, we should probably lynch him now and have done with it before he gets to MyLo and loses us the game because of it.
Half_Time is a mindset read for me, but I'll go back through your case and his iso to see if that changes things. I admit I can't quite remember specifically why I'm leaning town on him and I should probably reread to check.
If you want to look at them (as well as KoD, whose vote was also dangling on DoTA), feel free. Personally, I'll be concentrating on the smaller list and leaving my vote on Necarg (after I check Killjoy for TS and HT for you).
I'm less concerned about Kosa. He had an interesting D1, but the timing of his borg claim was definitely pro-town, as he was in no danger of being caught. I'm concerned about why he targeted cythere. I'd like a better explanation than I've been given, even if it's sufficiently vague to avoid outing his ability.
On Half-Time, do an ISO for the game. I think it speaks for itself. But ask yourself afterwards, what has he done? What are his reads? And more specifically, what has he done to figure those reads out. He says "top scum reads, in no particular order or severity are TS (will get into this after he finishes his recapping), <D_V> (for the reasons I stated yesterday), DotA (for reasons stated yesterday). Tom has pinged me as odd. Subtle little things that I'll continue to watch." He's not advancing these cases. He's made no progress in two days. Look at the topic's he's choosing to engage in instead. This is scum.
Yo Mindreaver don't steal my Thunder I was about to present that on H_T =/.
While I am typing crap up, I have two questions to be answered.
Cynth are you claiming immunity to Conversion from borg?
If yes, why did you not tell us yesterday?
Anyone else want to claim immunity now? This is important and should be claimed. I'll explain later.
So, Killjoy. I dunno. He fits into a lot of scum worlds by default, mostly because he's not here.
However, I don't think he'd set up an unalignment between his buddy Fable and his probably-not-buddy KoD in #221 unless they're all scum together and he was creating distance for them. Which doesn't seem super likely.
Then later (you didn't get to this yet TS) in #568 Fable calls out Killjoy as one of the players who isn't doing anything. It would be sort of odd for a scum mate to do that and Fable wasn't under a ton of pressure then. It's possible he chose a town lurker. But then WIFOM and etc. so maybe he chose his scum buddy to distance them.
I don't think it's super likely, to be honest. Gun to my head, if we lynch him he'll flip town, but if he doesn't get in here and post stuff we'll end up having to lynch him for PoE anyway.
I'll do Half_Time some time tonight, since he's someone with content I can actually have an opinion on. Then maaaybe a PBPA on Necarg's 17 whole posts, but I might push that out until tomorrow. Depends on how long Half_Time takes me.
The point is to PoE them since the wagon is almost entirely town. You check the wagon and then use behavior to narrow it down.
I don't personally think they're scum. Kosa admitted he was Borg, but I bet he's 7 of 9 or something. I've been leaning town on him virtually all game and I don't think we need him to claim any further than he has already. If a sizeable portion of player want him dead for being Borg, we should probably lynch him now and have done with it before he gets to MyLo and loses us the game because of it.
Half_Time is a mindset read for me, but I'll go back through your case and his iso to see if that changes things. I admit I can't quite remember specifically why I'm leaning town on him and I should probably reread to check.
If you want to look at them (as well as KoD, whose vote was also dangling on DoTA), feel free. Personally, I'll be concentrating on the smaller list and leaving my vote on Necarg (after I check Killjoy for TS and HT for you).
I'm less concerned about Kosa. He had an interesting D1, but the timing of his borg claim was definitely pro-town, as he was in no danger of being caught. I'm concerned about why he targeted cythere. I'd like a better explanation than I've been given, even if it's sufficiently vague to avoid outing his ability.
On Half-Time, do an ISO for the game. I think it speaks for itself. But ask yourself afterwards, what has he done? What are his reads? And more specifically, what has he done to figure those reads out. He says "top scum reads, in no particular order or severity are TS (will get into this after he finishes his recapping), <D_V> (for the reasons I stated yesterday), DotA (for reasons stated yesterday). Tom has pinged me as odd. Subtle little things that I'll continue to watch." He's not advancing these cases. He's made no progress in two days. Look at the topic's he's choosing to engage in instead. This is scum.
Yo Mindreaver don't steal my Thunder I was about to present that on H_T =/.
While I am typing crap up, I have two questions to be answered.
Cynth are you claiming immunity to Conversion from borg?
If yes, why did you not tell us yesterday?
Anyone else want to claim immunity now? This is important and should be claimed. I'll explain later.
The point is to PoE them since the wagon is almost entirely town. You check the wagon and then use behavior to narrow it down.
I don't personally think they're scum. Kosa admitted he was Borg, but I bet he's 7 of 9 or something. I've been leaning town on him virtually all game and I don't think we need him to claim any further than he has already. If a sizeable portion of player want him dead for being Borg, we should probably lynch him now and have done with it before he gets to MyLo and loses us the game because of it.
Half_Time is a mindset read for me, but I'll go back through your case and his iso to see if that changes things. I admit I can't quite remember specifically why I'm leaning town on him and I should probably reread to check.
If you want to look at them (as well as KoD, whose vote was also dangling on DoTA), feel free. Personally, I'll be concentrating on the smaller list and leaving my vote on Necarg (after I check Killjoy for TS and HT for you).
I'm less concerned about Kosa. He had an interesting D1, but the timing of his borg claim was definitely pro-town, as he was in no danger of being caught. I'm concerned about why he targeted cythere. I'd like a better explanation than I've been given, even if it's sufficiently vague to avoid outing his ability.
On Half-Time, do an ISO for the game. I think it speaks for itself. But ask yourself afterwards, what has he done? What are his reads? And more specifically, what has he done to figure those reads out. He says "top scum reads, in no particular order or severity are TS (will get into this after he finishes his recapping), <D_V> (for the reasons I stated yesterday), DotA (for reasons stated yesterday). Tom has pinged me as odd. Subtle little things that I'll continue to watch." He's not advancing these cases. He's made no progress in two days. Look at the topic's he's choosing to engage in instead. This is scum.
Yo Mindreaver don't steal my Thunder I was about to present that on H_T =/.
While I am typing crap up, I have two questions to be answered.
Cynth are you claiming immunity to Conversion from borg?
If yes, why did you not tell us yesterday?
Anyone else want to claim immunity now? This is important and should be claimed. I'll explain later.
* Cythare jumps up at D_V and claws him in the face. *
First off, people aren't exactly converted. But yeah, obviously there are benefits. Suffice to say, I targeted Cythare because he was one of my top town reads and because the benefits would be greater with him than with most.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Yeah, hindsight is 20/20. I defended the evil scum!Fable from Sir TappingStones the Hero and Conquering Champion. But... that doesn't mean I'm scum. In fact, you fail to even explain how this is necessarily an indication of an alignment between us and instead segue into defending yourself.
Sir Chris also hit D_V at the same time for the same post. Do you think my question to D_V at the time was not fair? If you think it was fair to ask him to answer the question, what makes Fable's post a defense of a scum buddy and not just scum trying to look like town?
Actually... no, I don't think so, but others will have to iso for themselves. This one thing with D_V is the only time Fable defends me, and he only does it in two posts. A single data point (or even a couple) does not a pattern make. In fact, by this point I think we've cleared all of my defenses of Fable, as well. So you have my thing where I defended Fable from you in the very early game and Fable's thing where he was trying to look townie by making D_V answer my completely fair question and showing him why he's wrong to scum read me for that post.
Further, I think if you go back you'll see I spent as much time defending Kosa as I did Fable. Doesn't mean I was right to do so -- clearly Fable was scum, but it wasn't as obvious back then. ... because I forgot to refresh my browser tab and he ninja'd me. If you read that post in full, I was responding to his #113 where he says you were fine but doesn't take a stance on Fable. Look at the time stamps, they're like ten minutes apart or something. I often leave my browser tabs open and forget to refresh the page before posting. I wasn't "trying hard." That was literally what I thought. It can indicate an alignment but I thought maybe it didn't because they were new to us and not each other. Context is important when considering the motivations of others. If you go back through those posts and read them in context, I'm sure you'll notice that you never mentioned Fable again after asking me what I thought of his interaction with KoD. I was concerned that you were being so hands-off with one of your potential scum reads -- during GoldenEye your opinion on a player was almost always pretty clear and I had no idea what you actually thought of Fable at that juncture.
Now, if you'll read through my posts to Fable and Tom when the were pushing me as the lynch for being "Borg," I'm sure you'll agree an alignment between us is ridiculous -- unless I'm such a skilled player after GoldenEye that I could fake this with a scum buddy:
... Which I guess I would take as a compliment even if it isn't true.
I've considered that as well.
because ive only seen you lie in a mafia game to keep yourself from getting NKed, not the other way around.
@MR, do you often assume that reasonable people believe nobody says what they mean? Your argument is you assume I meant something other than what I actually said yet have provided no reason to assume as much. Tell me again how that makes me the scummy one?
As for Fable, I'd like to hear your fool proof five point plan on determining and verifying the exact point fable decided to umpromptedly claim scum day 1, as well as verification of which posts he made in earnest and which posts he was messing with town. I won't hold my breath on that one either though because we both know it isn't possible. So as an alternative to that I'll let you just explain to me why you think it's better play for town to focus their time on analyzing a player who opted to claim scum and openly admitted to trying to create WIFOM in the thread rather than analyzing those players that are still living and how they interacted with fable.
As for TS, there's a method to my madness. I don't expect you to understand the unspoken things, but as you said yourself you don't have a problem with what I did, but who I did it to. And I have a problem with that.
Let's look at things. I was suspicious of TS yesterday. Fable claimed scum and was obv lynched. SC and goose died in the night as town. So which of these three deaths is supposed to ease my suspicion of TS? What exactly is it that you think I should have seen so as to not still be suspicious of TS?
@shock, as I got into a little bit above, fable was not shy about saying he was intentionally trying to screw with town's mind. So what he was doing was no secret. Why he chose to do it is the irrational part. But the issue then becomes when did he start. It is my belief that analyzing how other people interacted with fable is a much more productive use of time than analysing the things fable said.
@DV, top scum reads, in no particular order or severity are TS (will get into this after he finishes his recapping), yourself (for the reasons I stated yesterday), DotA (for reasons stated yesterday). Tom has pinged me as odd. Subtle little things that I'll continue to watch.
No. I think I said that in the sign-ups for 3 little Pigs, right?
I remember very early on Sc schooling someone, perhaps in Predator or Stargate(can't remember which) about how never lying as town is a relic and he explained a bit on that. After that I've played with IABM and Seppel several times who regularly lie. So I've gotten accustomed to the idea of it. I've had plenty of time during these long games to think about what situations I would want to lie as town and the main two reasons are these; as a power role I would be willing to lie to keep me from getting NK'd this includes the options to claim vanilla, claim some sort of protection, lie about my PR to make it seem less powerful, as a vanilla(or close approximation) I would be willing to lie for the reason I've already stated. To make myself seem like a valuable role so that eventually I would eat a NK over potentially someone who could swing the game more with their PR. This doesn't mean I actively want to die as vanilla, it just means that I recognize and would love to add that kind of value to an otherwise mediocre role.
I'm not sure how helpful that is but I think those two philosophies on lying are fine and often correct. I think people should try not to lie in a way that would screw over their team after the flip, for example if I make some kind of claim that can't be confirmed after I die, then you are creating conditions of negative impact and those should be minimized.
alright.
tapping could be scum. dont get me wrong.
somebody show me.
What do you think about Killjoy? Or my notes on Silver? You mentioned that you targeted silver last night and it doesn't seem like you are very occupied with him even after my PBPR on him. Am I just off on Silver?
Watch the wagon on me, too. There are likely to be some good interactions gained there. Some of the people against me are not town. And I'll be damned if we don't set up a sick POE by the end of today.
Still suspicious. Especially of his motive trying to tie me to Fable. But it also wouldn't be the first or last time someone looked to hard to find a pattern that wasn't there.
I'm about where Tom is, I think. It's plausible but I'm not convinced.
silver does not seem like he has teammates.
Why is it suspicious for me to see connections between you and Fable? It's not like I made it cryptic or anything I linked all the posts I was interested in for everyone to see. I don't like people suspecting me either but at the end of the day we HAVE TO suspect people to win. Scum just have to hang out and survive long enough to reach parity. We have no such luxury. So if I'm wrong about you then I mean what would you like me to say, sorry for scum hunting? Look at my review of you from an outsiders point of view.
And of course it's plausible that I'm scum let's be realistic, it's also plausible that you and/or Tom are scum. I have no such luxury as the "classified files" I had in Goldeneye to cop people. so I'm going to be running people through the ringer, some of them are going to be town(or not, maybe I'm all gas this game?) no one whether scum or town is going to feel great about some one bringing a case on them, BUT that's how I've always played and I have not lost to scum EVER. I have 7 completed games against the scum team and they've never smelled a hint of victory against me. Taste it!
And they aren't going to win this game either.
@Crystal-I ask that you to go through interactions with the dead players and help me find scum. Like, that's what we are here for. See, town benefits from people being active and participating. It's hard to keep up the charade post after post after post so scum try to find spots where they can V/LA, or be "busy", "no internet", etc. It's a grind for them. For us not so much. Keep your nose to the ground and sniff 'em out.
As for interactions with dead players, interactions with dead town are almost worthless unless you can prove who was which kill, as me and Mindreaver were discussing earlier, and Fable is a morass of lies. I think our best tool at the moment is Fable's wagon. Out of ten votes there's virtually guaranteed to be at least one scum bussing.
I'd like everyone to look at the placement and timing of votes on that wagon. Spoiler: I'm voting for the worst one. I'll explain more when I get back to my desk and can access my spreadsheet and notes.
She then rolls a set of blue, cyan, grey, pink, and red balls towards Half_Time, and another set towards Necarg. *
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Actually, the read is completely generated from the reread. I wasn't on you day one. Once I saw the flips from night one I went back to do some reading. I posted some initial POE scum list and posted some of the details as time allowed. You say my case is narrow, ok so present some better ones. Lest you note very few people are doing much. My activity level will be high regardless, some of these folks are going to go into day three and four as virtual unknowns, but you guys(not literally you) want to spend all of day two chasing the guy that's actually playing to win?
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
She starts by running out of the room with a white ball and leaves one by Sir Chris's corpse.
She then comes back into the room and sets one next to herself.
She then rolls one towards Wheat_Grinder.
She then rolls one towards TappingStones.
She then rolls one to D_V.
She then rolls one to Silvercrys.
She then rolls one to Mindreaver.
She then rolls one to Necarg.
Finally, she rolls one to Fable's corpse. *
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
You are refusing at looking at any other players? What? And you call me making a case against you suspicious? At least I'm looking at multiple people and have many posts for reference. What's the payoff for tunneling one player?
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
but yeah, necarg's vote looks pretty bad.
@tapping did you have a plan for if someone else was spock?
He places nine white balls in a line, then places a black ball behind each, followed by a tenth black ball at the end of the line of black balls, then places the hammer in front of the tenth black ball, then moves the hammer away from the balls. *
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Yeah, I did. That was the idea behind time-traveling Spock. Though I did consider that I might just come clean if it was causing issues. As I said, it was more to increase value from my slot not to create WIFOM.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
First time acknowledging me. They are chasing their tails. I agree with that.
Be careful about with the "get to it later" part, I caught hell for sleeping and going to work. While the rest of the players sat back doing nothing.
But eventually yall are gonna have to figure it out or killing me will take out two town analysts.
Do you think the votes themselves look townie (football), or just the players involved (baseball).
Either way I vaguely disagree wrt necarg
Oh but you rolled a red ball at necarg...
Hey, does anyone have the votal? Me and the cat want to see it.
Was there only 9 votes and it should have been 10?
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
She then runs to the yarn basket and comes back with a blue ball and a red ball and looks over at Necarg while pawing at Tom's leg. *
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Now, I'd like to discuss Fable's wagon.
Check this out:
Fable07 (9): Sir Chris, Cythare, Wheat_Grinder, TappingStones, D_V, Mindreaver, Necarg, Fable07
DoTArchon (2): KingofDominaria, col_mongoose
Kosakosa (2): Rhand, Brinatoo
col_mongoose (1): DoTArchon
Silvercrys3467 (1): tomsloger
TappingStones (1): Kosakosa
D_V (1): Half_Time
Not Voting (2): Killjoy, Shockwave07
So, first order of business is this:
@Q or The Prophet: Could you confirm Fable's lynch was legal?
I mean, it's pretty obvious he was dead regardless, but either someone on the wagon is a double voter or the lynch was a mistake. It happened pretty quick.
Next, what are the chances a random grouping of eight players contains one scum? 19 players gives us probably 4 or 5 scum. Assuming worst statistical chance (4 scum) gives us a 21% chance of any individual player flipping scum at random. 21% of 8 is 1.68, which means on average there will be between one and two scum in a random group of 8.
Finally, of the eight players on the wagon (besides Fable himself), who is plausible scum on behavior? It was pretty much just Necarg, and I still think he has a much better chance of flipping scum than TS does.
Now, the people whose votes were hanging out doing nothing...
Brinatoo
DoTArchon
tomsloger
Kosakosa
Half_Time
Killjoy
Shockwave07
I'm pretty confident that Kosa and HT are town.
Rhand
Brinatoo
DoTArchon
tomsloger
Killjoy
Shockwave07
So, let's vig/lynch/case this group. If you're in this group and town, post some stuff so we know not to lynch you. Except Tom, I just don't know what to think about Tom.
I asked you to look at my killjoy post and to make your own scum cases on people. So when you said "No, I'm keeping my eye on you..." It came across that you are JUST looking at me. That's what I was confused about.
Hey, thanks silver.
Go ahead and take a look while you are free old sport.
Sorry mods, we don't need to double check the Fable wagon after all.
Let's not throw a personal bias into there just yet (since you're taking away my top borg read, and my top scum read lol). Lets look at the whole list of people not on the wagon if we're going to do that.
I don't personally think they're scum. Kosa admitted he was Borg, but I bet he's 7 of 9 or something. I've been leaning town on him virtually all game and I don't think we need him to claim any further than he has already. If a sizeable portion of player want him dead for being Borg, we should probably lynch him now and have done with it before he gets to MyLo and loses us the game because of it.
Half_Time is a mindset read for me, but I'll go back through your case and his iso to see if that changes things. I admit I can't quite remember specifically why I'm leaning town on him and I should probably reread to check.
If you want to look at them (as well as KoD, whose vote was also dangling on DoTA), feel free. Personally, I'll be concentrating on the smaller list and leaving my vote on Necarg (after I check Killjoy for TS and HT for you).
Currently looking at the Wagon because (and I forgot I saw this when I was reading while camping/figuring out night action, but yea I saw the wagon had some inconsistencies and ended early) strange stuff with Necarg and TS(I thought he didn't register a non-bold vote and continues to do so this way) Just checked the rules and rule 3. Votes must be in BOLD or they will not be counted. Unvoting is not required, but is appreciated. ---- I'm confused by the last past, we can all vote multiple times or maybe it's talking about bolding for unvoting? Basically wtf with that wording but vote TappingStones to test. I think it's intended that the mods didn't post the wagon because someone has an ability for it.
Hey W_G, you should've put the pieces together with flavoring like that and ATLEAST asked Necarg if this was him that roleblocked you... yaknow so we can hold him to that or if someone has the ability to write their flavor on the block and paint Necarg as shady. So anyway: Necarg- Did you block Wheat_Grinder?
Also, I still think a flavor-miller should give Kosa an incentive to at least figure out the flavor behind his role like a good towny.... It shouldn't be far-fetched for Kosa to pull a Gambit like this, for example, when I was reading through the Fable claim/WIFOM(I saw it was night when I got to the forum and wanted to get to where I left off for flow-of-game and perhaps a different opinion and weigh my read/not be insta-biased) and thought Fable was still just ******* with us... I can say I've never seen play like this before and won't listen to my gut on crap like that because a townie should never claim scum.
@Kosa: Atleast elaborate on, and make it clear that with your ability(ies) you will flavor-convert X to Borg. Because you aren't denying this part of the conversation with Cythare. That's another reason why we are questioning you.
I'm less concerned about Kosa. He had an interesting D1, but the timing of his borg claim was definitely pro-town, as he was in no danger of being caught. I'm concerned about why he targeted cythere. I'd like a better explanation than I've been given, even if it's sufficiently vague to avoid outing his ability.
On Half-Time, do an ISO for the game. I think it speaks for itself. But ask yourself afterwards, what has he done? What are his reads? And more specifically, what has he done to figure those reads out. He says "top scum reads, in no particular order or severity are TS (will get into this after he finishes his recapping), <D_V> (for the reasons I stated yesterday), DotA (for reasons stated yesterday). Tom has pinged me as odd. Subtle little things that I'll continue to watch." He's not advancing these cases. He's made no progress in two days. Look at the topic's he's choosing to engage in instead. This is scum.
Yo Mindreaver don't steal my Thunder I was about to present that on H_T =/.
While I am typing crap up, I have two questions to be answered.
Cynth are you claiming immunity to Conversion from borg?
If yes, why did you not tell us yesterday?
Anyone else want to claim immunity now? This is important and should be claimed. I'll explain later.
Not specifically but I am asking are their benefits to "Converting" someone?
However, I don't think he'd set up an unalignment between his buddy Fable and his probably-not-buddy KoD in #221 unless they're all scum together and he was creating distance for them. Which doesn't seem super likely.
Then later (you didn't get to this yet TS) in #568 Fable calls out Killjoy as one of the players who isn't doing anything. It would be sort of odd for a scum mate to do that and Fable wasn't under a ton of pressure then. It's possible he chose a town lurker. But then WIFOM and etc. so maybe he chose his scum buddy to distance them.
I don't think it's super likely, to be honest. Gun to my head, if we lynch him he'll flip town, but if he doesn't get in here and post stuff we'll end up having to lynch him for PoE anyway.
I'll do Half_Time some time tonight, since he's someone with content I can actually have an opinion on. Then maaaybe a PBPA on Necarg's 17 whole posts, but I might push that out until tomorrow. Depends on how long Half_Time takes me.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
@Mods: We needs prods on lots of people, please.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)