@Reaver, why would I not post about a vote I said I was going to take a closer look at? You seem to be of the mindset that if you aren't town clearing somebody or trying to burn somebody at the stake you should be keeping your trap shut. I don't see how that is a helpful method of playing for town at all. (And that is how you actually throw shade)
No need to put words in my mouth. Nice strawman though. What I'm saying is, it doesn't make sense to...
I mentioned KJ's post because it was the factor that disconnected TS's vote from Rhand's for me. Given that Kosa had connected them, it seemed like a prudent thing to mention on why I was disconnecting them. I then analyzed the vote. Again, given its the crux of what I'm analyzing not mentioning doesn't seem prudent.
...do this. Why would you take it upon yourself to do this, just because Kosa mentioned it. He didn't say it to you. YOU chose to write about it. Then, YOU chose to not only post your findings (which is fine, and not my issue), but to scumread TS for a different reason altogether. My question is, why did YOU choose to do this in the same post? It's a perfectly reasonable question about why YOU have acted in a specific way. Explain that, instead of dodging with hyperbole, and I'll be happy.
The TS and DV situations are different from the start. With TS I analyzed what Kosa was leveling at him and then presented my opinion of the situation. If you took out the first half, you'd have something more closely resembling the DV situation, as I'd merely be presenting a read rather than analysis of somebody else's read in addition to my own.
This is exactly my point, they were treated differently. That could mean nothing. Or it could mean everything.
@Reaver, why would I not post about a vote I said I was going to take a closer look at? You seem to be of the mindset that if you aren't town clearing somebody or trying to burn somebody at the stake you should be keeping your trap shut. I don't see how that is a helpful method of playing for town at all. (And that is how you actually throw shade)
I mentioned KJ's post because it was the factor that disconnected TS's vote from Rhand's for me. Given that Kosa had connected them, it seemed like a prudent thing to mention on why I was disconnecting them. I then analyzed the vote. Again, given its the crux of what I'm analyzing not mentioning doesn't seem prudent.
The TS and DV situations are different from the start. With TS I analyzed what Kosa was leveling at him and then presented my opinion of the situation. If you took out the first half, you'd have something more closely resembling the DV situation, as I'd merely be presenting a read rather than analysis of somebody else's read in addition to my own.
If you read the one Shock posted here for KoD/Fable, I'm 15377 there. Commonly referred to as numbers.
@DV, so what you're saying is you OMGUS'd on TS's behalf? Seems a bit more than hypocritical. Unless you're not saying that your reason is irrelevant?
What? No.
He's offered literally zero justification for his vote. Stop trying to play semantics with this. His vote on TS is because TS voted him. Period. End of conversation. It's crap stop trying to twist something into something it isn't. Your point that it wasn't "Text book OMGUS" is kinda true, but not really. He did offer some support for his vote. That support has no merit and is total bunk, but sure he offered support.
You said Fable was 99% scum with Mind if he flips scum (#121), but told me you were leaning town on Fable (#167). Are (you) just that certain of the Mind/Fable alignment or what?
@Sir Chris:
I'd still like to hear your thoughts on Brinatoo when you get a chance.
@Shockwave:
I know you're not caught up, but I'm still looking for input on Kosa.
@TappingStones:
What were you hoping to get out of my T/S list?
@Killjoy:
Why did you ask about my Mafia experience?
Although maybe TS deserves another look he's was the one to quick call a scum team after I voted Rhand.
Are you still rethinking TappingStones? I thought he was just listing his scum reads, not necessarily drawing alignments between them.
@Rhand:
What was scummy about JD's vote post (#33)? I see what he's saying that KoD was being self-aware about being accused of fishing but I don't think self-awareness is necessarily a scum tell, either.
A loud commotion is heard coming from one of the crew quarters, followed by a scream.
Seppel appears in a flash of light, in wheat_grinder's bed, where wheat_grinder's been sleeping for about a week now. Seppel starts freaking out, "OH MY ******* GOD WHAT THE HELL" and assorted other excited profanities. Surprisingly, wheat sleeps through all of this.
Seppel stops screaming when wheat_grinder disappears in a flash of light. He comes out of the room and tells anyone and everything there that nothing's happened, he just looks a little differently now. Curiously, everyone accepts this and moves on with their lives.
@Reaver, I didn't put words in your mouth. I said that seems to be your mindset since you clearly have a problem with null reads. If you exclude null reads the only thing left are town reads and scum reads, hence why I said what I said. The world, and mafia especially, is not so black and white though.
And what exactly doesn't make sense? I found a situation to be suspect. I stated I'd evaluate the corresponding past posts the next day. I came back and did and posted my follow up in thread. Does it make more sense to you to say, "This situation is sketch. Imma dig into it." And then say nothing else about it?
Of course they were treated differently. As I just said they are completely different situations. Reactive vs proactive.
@DV, you realize you just completely contradictory yourself there, ja? Clearly you concede that there were reasons in that post and you wish to continue to pursue an OMGUS argument. So flesh it out for me. Where is kosa off base? What exactly delutes the merit of his arguments?
@Silver: Because this late in the game it's unusual for a non-new player who is up to speed on the game to have no scum reads this late into it. In 300+ posts, someone usually looks scummy. Newer players don't necessarily have the confidence in their reads to declare someone scummy so early.
If you weren't a newer player I might have considered that position scummy, but for now it's fine.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Reaver, I didn't put words in your mouth. I said that seems to be your mindset since you clearly have a problem with null reads. If you exclude null reads the only thing left are town reads and scum reads, hence why I said what I said. The world, and mafia especially, is not so black and white though.
And what exactly doesn't make sense? I found a situation to be suspect. I stated I'd evaluate the corresponding past posts the next day. I came back and did and posted my follow up in thread. Does it make more sense to you to say, "This situation is sketch. Imma dig into it." And then say nothing else about it?
Of course they were treated differently. As I just said they are completely different situations. Reactive vs proactive.
@DV, you realize you just completely contradictory yourself there, ja? Clearly you concede that there were reasons in that post and you wish to continue to pursue an OMGUS argument. So flesh it out for me. Where is kosa off base? What exactly delutes the merit of his arguments?
I got time right now in the middle of the night to do stuff. This whole argument that Numbers (Half, but I know him as JD, but for ease will call him Half to appease the rest of you) is in makes me want to get involved more with it. Plus, I'm only here because Half is here, so I'm going to auto agree with him at this point in time until I've read through. Reason why I'm auto agreeing with him is that he is, more or less, our grandfather in our other forum. I encountered him a long time ago (nearly ten years ago) and have had off and on contact with him in various mafia games. He's definitely not a player that makes logical errors, I will guarantee that right now. That's not to say he can't be "wrong", but that is usually a matter of perspective when talking about who is wrong.
Anyway, I'll get my reads post out first and save this particular argument for a separate post so I can delve into the juicy details.
I'm only here because Half is here, so I'm going to auto agree with him at this point in time until I've read through. Reason why I'm auto agreeing with him is that he is, more or less, our grandfather in our other forum.
I'm not sure how things are played on the other forum but being" your grandfather" doesn't make him town. I'm not sure how roles are given out there, but here they are given randomly. You or I or even your "grandfather" can roll scum. So "auto-agreeing" with someone is illogical play on your part because you don't know his alignment and you've also admitted to not reading up so your agreement holds no value in the first place.
What do we care if a guy who hasn't read up agrees with something?
I encountered him a long time ago (nearly ten years ago) and have had off and on contact with him in various mafia games. He's definitely not a player that makes logical errors, I will guarantee that right now. That's not to say he can't be "wrong", but that is usually a matter of perspective when talking about who is wrong.
You don't understand what that implies. Every player makes logical errors from time to time. Your "grandfather" isn't a flawless human being. But it's been pointed out by no less than four players that you have no idea what logical play implies.
Anyway, I'll get my reads post out first and save this particular argument for a separate post so I can delve into the juicy details.
Back in a flash.
I want to note here that KOD is on record saying he
1)Hasn't read the argument
2)Is barn/ Half because they've known each other from the forum for a long time (WTF???????)
3)He's going to go back and try to support Half's case without knowing what it's even about. You can't claim to agree with something you haven't read yet. That's another logical fallacy! This guy is a gold mine so far.
Killjoy - Blank.
DoTArchon - Blank.
Cythare - Town feel. Already commented on.
Silvercrys3467 - Blank.
Wasabipea - Blank.
D_V - Town feel. Already commented on.
jdawesomesauce / Brinatoo - Blank.
TappingStones - Null to scum feel. Already commented on.
Necarg - Scum feel. Already commented on.
Mindreaver - Town feel. Already commented on.
Shockwave07 - Blank.
Half_Time - It's complicated.
Fable07 - Scum feel. Already commented on.
Wheat_Grinder / Seppel - Blank.
Kosakosa - Scum feel currently. More to come concerning the situation around him.
Yomako / Rhand - Blank.
Sir Chris - Null to town feel (still dislike early interaction with him). Already commented on.
col_mongoose - Blank.
Ok, the names with Blank next to them are people I don't have an impression of due to not having delved into their posts. Below, I will be going through each of the posts belonging to each Blank player and giving my thoughts on them. The situation revolving around Kosa will be addressed separately from this, so I will exclude those players involved in that from this section (the major ones that is).
Killjoy - Upon reviewing his first two posts, I feel there is only a little noteworthy content in them. His comments to Chris wrt to me and the fishing are really the only real stuff I see him make a sort of stance on (he refers to thinking the same thing essentially that Chris was when Chris responded to me). Other than that, he makes note of Fable's KoD Rules and asks for links to games that I've played in. I notice that unlike Necarg, Kill says that Chris picking fights doesn't make him town (in contrast to Necarg stating this is town Chris due to the aggressive and critical thinking he's showing). Overall, after these two posts, I get a slight town lean from him. Moving on to other posts of his now.
He comments about DV's "clear" (still hate that word) of Chris and how he interpreted it as serious compared to Mind viewing it as playful. His next two posts are him promising more content since he's been busy and/or tired. The third post is him greeting two players (that replaced in I believe) and then commenting on how he doesn't think Fable and I are scum aligned together. No specifics given mind you. His next posts has him asking about for a game both Fable and I have been in to check something (not stated). I believe Shock provided a game where both Fable and I were scum together. Kill goes on to ask Silver a question wrt to being new to mafia. Looks like he was looking at Silver due to barely any scum reads or something.
Overall feel about Kill: He started off relatively ok (it isn't like he had any major impact on discussion or anything). As far as I can tell, he's just here. His dislike of Fable without stating any specifics is a ping on my scumdar due to how easy it was/is for people to bandwagon onto Fable (due to how he is acting). Don't get me wrong, even I think Fable has been scummy on a variety of occasions; however, for Kill to come in despite saying he'd add more content and given next to nothing comes off as scummy. I am leaning scum on him because of his relative cruising through the game despite more than enough time having passed for ***good*** content to be produced.
DoTArchon - Ok, this guy/gal next. Opening posts ring of playfulness. First three posts I don't perceive any content. More like fluff that is there. Fourth post provides actual content. Lots of areas mentioned. Like's AwesomeSauces's(JD's) point about me being self aware wrt to not posting to ask why (I've beaten that to death). Hm, comments to Stones about DoT's opening post being forced (the one concerning Silver voting No Lynch). DoT never bolded the vote (at least from what I can see in this ISO) so I don't see how it can feel forced. Asks DV how the Fable wagon is a bad one. Gives general reads lumping a lot of people as null/lean town with Stones at the top, then mentions 3 players that are at the bottom of her list that are to be considered scum for her: Kosa (via a post Stones gave at the top of page 5), JD (via mentioning Mind having good points -- no specifics given like what points were good if not all), and Mongoose (ends up voting) for coming out of nowhere and voting Rhand while having minimal amount of posts. Note for later assessment pending rest of posts (self aware).
Moving on to other posts from DoT. Huh, so next post DoT addresses Mind talking about his "points" against JD. DoT cites several posts, one of which is admittedly (via Mind pointing it out in an argument with someone else questioning him over it) a post made in jest/playfulness/etc. Actually even the second post (of the three) confirms that playfulness. The third post is aimed at Kosa. So, echoing Mind, I don't see what good points DoT is talking about. Oh, and before I forget, the previous post where DoT gave reads has DoT liking a point JD made (against me via the self aware thing), then, in the same breath of the post, labels him as scummy for reasons she cites via posts she quotes from Mind (when Mind asked); however, said posts don't have any reasons aimed at JD at all. There is a serious disconnect here, and this is scummy. I still have more posts to go through though not too many. Finishing up that post though, DoT's response to Goose makes me cringe because -- well actually let me paint it since this is actually bothering me.
So, DoT's first content post touches on various subjects. That's cool. Not that they really go anywhere. Then she gets to her reads and, more or less, downplays her like of a point JD made by reading him as scum due to nonexistent points from Mind. Now Mind, feel free to correct me on this. You stated you didn't have points against JD. Indeed, the posts DoT quoted don't seem to have any points against JD at all as opposed to just stating facts. The third post, as I mentioned, is you looking at Kosa for his interaction with JD. That's not something you are throwing at JD though, correct? As I said above, it is a serious disconnect, but tack onto this that DoT's focus then goes onto Goose. It doesn't stop there though, DoT is, to use a phrase that is fresh in my mind, "self aware" about being the pot calling the kettle black for voting Goose due to his minimal amount of posts of content (like her) and voting someone out of nowhere (Goose's vote of Rhand). Now in this post of DoT's I'm looking at where she responds to Goose, she says, and I quote, "If you had more content in your posts prior to your vote that looked like you were actively trying to work something out then you wouldn't have to worry about scrutiny, as long as your vote aligned with your reads." She goes on to mention mafia theory and looking at why town would do/say what they do/say. The self aware applies to her knowingly attacking a player that has done about as much as she has, but then you have her -- what do you call it? coaching? -- telling Goose that he could have avoided scrutiny by adding more content to his post and voting in line with his reads. Her own reads are questionable (I haven't looked into the Kosa one, but her read of JD for sure given the Mind quotes, and her Goose read reeks of scummyness given how self aware she is, the bit of coaching that describes exactly what she did, and being very much a hypocrite knowingly for going after Goose for the reasons stated.
And I'm still not at the end of her posts. Ok, she asks Goose about his change of perspective on Rhand (haven't looked at Goose, but I don't think he directly stated he viewed him as scum other than just voting Rhand which would fall in line with Goose's explanation of blind voting). Very much dislike the response DoT gives to Goose which just seems to be shoveling more dirt onto Goose for trying to do his own thing to generate discussion (and I'm going to congratulate Goose on trying to do more). Just because there is a lot of content doesn't mean you can't/shouldn't make your own waves if you're up for it. It certainly did something with helping to get a look at how DoT is reacting to you (Goose). DoT also mentions disliking Kosa's vote on TS since (based on meta/playstyle) TS is town. She also mentions focusing on one thing and sticking to it (like Goose) due to not being good at the beginning of large games. I would certainly say that is something that scum would focus on as well since keeping track of a lot of things (your opinions on other players) can potentially cause you to slip up. This is an indirect jab at you (DoT).
Ok, that's all of her posts.
Overall feel: At first I wasn't expecting much (plus I was happy there were a short amount of posts. I've been up making this post for about 5 hours off and on due to getting distracted with games and talking). Anyway, when I got to DoT's first content post, I really gave it a look over for each word. Some things I readily dismissed (and by some, I mean just the one thing about Necar where she talks about Necar possibly having a posting restriction and being Kirk, she even asks him if he is Kirk). What caught my attention, as can be seen, was her reads. Her JD read comes off contradictory to me since she felt JD had a good point. Course I did more digging as I read more of her posts and saw what she cited when asked by Mind (already explained above). Then I focused in on her scum reading Goose (explained above). Overall, I'm drawing a hard line scum vibe from DoT. To give a comparison, I view what she has done here worse than what Necar has did. Until I read up on the Kosa stuff, I feel this is damning for DoT as well.
Unvote, Vote: DoTArchon
Silvercrys3467 - Oh boy. 3 pages on Silver. Alright, so a lot of the early stuff I already interacted with him over. I know I butted heads with him. I'm mostly glancing through these early posts till I get to newer content that doesn't involve me. Ok, so all my arguing with Silver aside (concerning the fishing stuff) everything about Silver's posts up to him responding to Stones about Kosa's question concerning my FoS comes off as town motivated. He's actively engaging in conversations and asking questions at various points. I specifically mention him responding to Stones about Kosa's post because if that's concerning all that stuff with Kosa, then I'm going to save it for when I address that issue specifically. Let's see what else there is.
Ah yes, that whole mention by Fable concerning the Borg and questions about Cythare's Spot the Cat role. I wholeheartedly agree with how Silver responded to Fable over this in that there's no reason to jump to conclusions that a cult exists just because of your (Fable) role mentioning it (and that's assuming Fable is being truthful in the first place). Silver asks Goose and Shock for opinions on Kosa since he is town reading him. And that ends the posts.
Final page of posts. I'm going to make a note to come back to Silver's post requesting people to ISO Mind later. I've got a town read of Mind already, and if there are people scum reading him, then it is worth looking into (though that project has to wait till after the Kosa stuff, unless it is connected). I see your (Silver) interaction with Brina. I'm currently giving it plenty of look over to come to a conclusion there. Ok, I'm aware of the posts Mind made wrt to JD as his nemesis. I will say that perhaps to some people the playfulness could be missed (I mean, refer back to DoT who referenced Mind's posts when talking about Mind having good points against JD). Brina's second post (the one you(Silver) restate) comes off as exactly how she is talking about it. The word usage may indicate a stronger feel than null (in the second post though I'm not sure in the order they occur), but Brina's explanation seems consistent to me when she explained it to you. JD/Brinatoo is a player I'll get to in another area since I have to ISO them, but as far as the posts quoted, I don't see Brina being scummy over it. I must ask, but what was the topic of concern here exactly? That Brina is scum reading Mind over his posts and changed her read recently to town (thus the reference to these posts)? I'll probably find the answer when I end up ISOing Brina.
Moving along. The Kosa statements about Fable and Mind's alignments is sketch to me. Thanks for pointing it out. Ooh, ok. I see why you're arguing with Brin due to a later post where you address her. The focus is on her throwing suspicion on Mind's posts that deal with JD. Even after having mentioned those posts are playful (and they are), she continues arguing the point which is why this argument is here. I have to throw my hat on your side of this given the quotes I'm reading from Brin. Even though you asked Chris his opinion of Brina, here's my immediate impression of Brina: Based on the few quoted posts I saw in your posts, I see where you are coming from the second time around wrt to Brina's posts. As I noted, the first time around it is entirely possible she thinks Mind is being serious about JD (I cite DoT as an example), but despite Mind's posts and their playfulness being mentioned she continues to argue the point. I'd say it is scummy. Comparatively not as scummy as Necar's bandwagon. Probably on the level that Fable has been scummy to me though lower. I say this because if Brina is trying to make Mind out to be suspicious, that makes me question her connection to Kosa then despite her constantly saying she viewed him as scummy. Kind of like a deflection if you will from Kosa.
wrt to thinking I'm stubborn town: The game is young. Perhaps we'll be at each others' throats later in the game if we're both still alive.
I'll come back to your reads post much later for comparisons.
Overall feel: Well, my interaction with him didn't scream scum at me though I did give him scum points at one point. I'd say I was biased with him given the argument over how I was acting towards Chris with the fishing stuff. A bit of time has passed since then, and after having reviewed his posts now, I feel a more towny vibe from him than anything. I'd be comfy with a solid town read for now (though I reserve the right to change this pending how the Kosa stuff pans out once I dig into that). Also, I felt Silver was town motivated in his argument with Brina.
I lost track of time a while ago. I better save this in case something bad happens.
Wasabipea - Only has two posts. Both directed at me. Hasn't been replaced as far as I can tell. Honestly, I got nothing about him. He gives his perception of me based on what had occurred at the time, but without more I can't give a read on him. I will note that his second post does touch up on like everything that was brought up about me.
But yeah, I got nothing.
Ok, so I'm getting a tad tired of this, but I got only a few more to go.
JD/Brina - JD had only like three posts which Mind commented on. I'll just go off the top of my head. Actually two of the posts were right in front of me, and I know that JD talked directly to Mind in a playful manner that was talked about. As far as JD goes, he comes out swinging hard to place a vote staunchly as indicated by his second post where he lets it stand, convinced that I was speaking from a scum mindset wrt to not asking why to Chris. I don't think I'm biased in this assessment when I say that my earlier view of JD stands. His attack on me did come off as opportunistic. There was a long, drawn out conversation about my fishing accusation and not asking why. JD strictly stays with calling me self aware over the whole thing (and yes, I was self aware the moment it was brought up), yet gives no heed to my motivation for speaking my piece over the whole thing. Contrast this whole self aware thing with how I apply self aware to DoT earlier in my post. The motivation for her speaking certainly doesn't seem to come from a town mindset, yet compared to my situation with asserting Chris was being random and, being confronted with being called scum for not asking why, my explanation from my perspective, the motivation isn't the same as it is plausible from my perspective what I am saying.
JD left after like three posts or so, and Brina ends up stepping in where she gets into conversation with Silver over Mind. Without ISOing Brina, I believe a majority of Brina's con -- eh screw it. brb while I ISO Brina.
Oh boy. Definitely more content to Brina compared to JD. That's a huge improvement. Let's see. Ugh. Ok so I got to the post where she was talking with Chris and asked if he knew the motivation for her opening post. Given the entirety of the post, it comes off pretty much as I said the first time around. That Brina probably sees Mind's post as serious (much like how DoT probably thought the same thing). Brina's response to you (Silver) though I dislike for reasons I mentioned in your section. You make mention about Mind being joking/playful with those posts, yet Brina continues the point about it being genuine to her. I stick by the scummy feel it gives by throwing suspicion on Mind.
@Brina: Yeah, about that wrt to. Half mentioned it to me for two reasons. One being that if I was using wrt as something else than with respect/regards to that I should expand it. The other being that if I was doing it on purpose/didn't care, then at least I would hopefully see it and never be unable to see it and suffer with him over it. Ever since he brought it up, I've never been able to unsee it. So now I do it out of spite. You're just the latest victim.
Reading through some of the same responses I saw in Silver's section. I'm in complete disagreement with your assessment about reads (wrt to judging Mind's post about JD). Another thing to keep in mind here is that Mind was called out for meta clearing someone by Stones I think. The conversation centered on that post where he meta cleared JD as scum and another post where he states not meta clearing anyone seriously or something along those lines. Mind states that his playful post concering JD is just that. Playful. This is something you must have missed during your read of the thread or ignored to make your statements concerning Mind.
Hm, read through where Brina was explaining the sentences that Silver interpreted. I see it more as Brina making excuses to her sentences for how they read. Silver's interpretation and presentation of how your (Brina) statements came off seem accurate enough to me. That is, by figuring out Mind's motivation (as town or as scum), you would feel better about your own read on Kosa. What I'm going to focus on is why were you so hung up on focusing on Mind if you already had your mind set on viewing Kosa as scummy? Mind shouldn't have any impact on how you read Kosa, and if you assert that drawing a read on Mind (as town or scum) matters, then you're saying how you read Mind would influence how you read Kosa for the same reasons Silver brought up (that reading Mind as scum would imply you can't trust his motivation for pursuing Kosa thereby making you think Kosa is a mislynch despite viewing Kosa as scummy yourself). For having replaced into the game, it certainly is extremely early for you to be linking two players so much that your read of one affects your read of the other, wouldn't you say?
I'll make a note to look at your reads much later for comparison sake. I notice though that your read of Mind is a town lean.
Overall Feel: I certainly dislike the conversation around Mind and Brina's way of going about it that focuses heavily on thinking that Mind was being genuine with an obviously playful post wrt to JD. I do think it is scummy in that it certainly can cast suspicion on Mind in the way Silver described. The word play is strong regarding that (as far as how it can be interpreted). Despite the scum feel, I rank it comparatively lower than practically all of the other scum stuff I've seen during the course of the game. Certainly if Brina missed concrete posts indicating that Mind was being playful, then I can see myself just making an issue out of something small here. As far as the rest of Brina's content, it's short and to the point. Nothing greatly fleshed out/talked about like the conversation with Silver, but I don't see that as a bad thing since Brina has been actively posting content. I'd say a definite town lean on Brina is how she's coming off to me.
Comparing the two now, JD and Brina, I'd say I'd go with how I am feeling about Brina. JD's reaction to me was definitely like a rock and could be an easy way to just place a vote and not commit to much more. If JD/Brina truly is scum, Brina is doing an excellent job dispelling the negative view I had in place from JD.
Shock - He says he has a posting restriction. Not sure what it is given some of his posts seem flexible. Not a lot of content thus far browsing through his posts. Got up to where he gave a link to the mafia game Fable and I were in. And Half. Half was in that one too. So far, Shock just seems to be conversing. Alright, so his last two posts have content. I'll dig into them. Actually scratch that. He's giving a summary of the first page. I notice he's making small notes like "ugh this irks me" and the such. Let's look at the last post since this post doesn't really have a lot of explanation/fleshing out in it. And that last post of his is useless too.
Alright, judgement time.
Overall Feel: So, I've played with Shock in a few games over on NGA. I'm completely comfortable with saying idk wtf is going on with him here in this game. Like, he acts completely different as far as being indecisive and all over the place over in on NGA. Here, he's just like -- gliding? He's gliding through the game by making a lot of fluff posts. Anything from general conversation to small tidbits, but nothing that is really meaty and worth biting into. If I'm being generous, I'd lean null on him, but I'm not generous. I'm leaning scum on Shock here if only because this is a Shock I'm not used to seeing with all this fluff.
Friendly side note: Don't get bogged down responding to everything if you don't have the heart to sit down and do it. You'll just fall more and more behind. Course if you're doing it on purpose, then you're going to burn for it.
Couldn't find any posts from Wheat or Seppel so nada there. Off topic kinda: I heard about Seppel from a friend over on NGA. Nothing but good things. I think.
Yomo/Rhand - Ok, not going to lie. I'm just going to cruise through Rhand's posts, and state whether I get a scum or town feel. Because I deserve to be able to do this. And no more promises like this in the future. I swear. I said back in a flash, but really it's like a strapped a huge, heavy shell to my back, flopped onto the ground, and started crawling for the finish line while yelling, "Turtle! Turtle!" Never again.
Ok, Yomo came in with a hello, and left after asking a question. Totes scum right there. Let's look at Rhand now.
Accusation that doesn't mesh from JD. Ah, Rhand is the one that called Kosa out on the FoS post. Town points to Rand for that. Looks like I was wrong about Goose calling Rhand scummy as opposed to just a blank vote. I like Rhand's reaction to it. Poor Goose doesn't get anything from Rhand over that. Rhand makes note that he caught Kosa before Stones did. I know there is an argument that Kosa brings to bear about Stones being opportunistic or something along those lines. I'll get into that in a later post addressing the Kosa situation that I want to weigh in on because of Half.
Ah, another Goose post that Rhand responds to. You are right in that reasons should be given for linking teammates like Goose is doing. Heh, I seem to recall Stones posting questions similar to Rhand's question. Why this, why that, etc etc. Rather than address Rhand's question, Stones just says don't worry about it and that more will come later if Rhand gets to orange. Till then he wants to see what Rhand is about this game. The way Stones went about that is just screaming, "I've got my eye on you," rather than not mentioning him to begin with to see how Rhand would continue without influencing him (which Stones did). Certainly, in this exchange, Stones comes off odd for me here.
Back to talking about JD's vote on me. It's a matter of perspective there since a majority of people (practically everyone that commented on it) felt I was doing exactly what JD stated. Being self aware of asking why, unless Rhand's point is that I'm actually not caring about the perception of my posts because of how I'm posting. That's about the only thing I can think of for his stating that JD's reasoning doesn't mesh with what I've done. Interesting read on Stones given the pressure you mention. Your read on him makes sense given that.
Looks like the final post deals with the Kosa situation.
Overall Feel: I pretty am drawing a town lean vibe from him. He's definitely involved and active.
I think that just leaves Goose now. Yep.
Goose - Oh thank the Light, you have a short ISO. Ok, so the general stuff that was mentioned. Goose votes Rhand and gives a reason. He's lacking in content, but that doesn't make him any more scummy than others that are just as bad at content (or fluffing up their posts so they don't look bad for jumping on someone like them *cough*DoT*cough*). Personally, I have no problem with the vote. Goose also has a valid question when it comes to the whole scrutiny thing that DoT mentions to Goose when "coaching" him. If he bandwagons onto someone, he'll get scrutiny as well. Part of the game after all, especially with active players around that are critical. Rhand's question was never answered from what I can see concerning the whole scum team thing. I don't even think you (Goose) directed a response to him over it. You eventually go on to -- oh you actually do address your switch on Rhand. I noticed too that you state why you null lean to town lean on Kosa despite telling Stones you could see Kosa as possible scum buddies with Rhand. Your switch on Rhand is explained and you state null to town lean on him. I already addressed that part back up in DoT's part, but to summarize I see no problem with you trying to generate content on your own. You certainly got content out of someone that is for sure.
Overall Feel: Reasoning checks out with what I am used to. I don't perceive any malicious motives when it comes to his actions as he's not readily pushing something hard. He's even answered questions though it takes him time to do so. Overall, a null feel on him mostly. I could lean town, but it definitely wouldn't hurt to see more from him.
Ok, so that's all for my reads. The next best thing I could do in this post would be to organize the names from most townie to most scummy. I guess I can do that.
Cythare
Mind
Silver
DV
Rhand
Brina
Chris
----------
Goose
Half
Seppel
Wasabi
----------
Shock
Killjoy
Stones
Fable
Necar/Kosa
DoT
Ok, that fulfills my promise to get reads out. My final thing is to look over the Kosa situation later.
All things being equal, there is only one thing I'm going to focus on from your post. It's the fact that you state I'm on record as saying I'm going to go back and support Half's case even though I never said I would do that.
I would ask what the motivation could possibly be for you intentionally misrepresenting me, but I've already gotten scum vibes from you. It shouldn't take a stretch of the imagination to see w -- holy hell 7 hours to type that all out (off and on of course) -- to see why.
Other notable comments: Thanks for being a parrot and repeating something I already said. That being that he can be wrong (though it isn't loss on me that you didn't take the whole of the post into account).
Finally, you sure took my post to heart despite the fact I admitted to having not read the situation. At best, I'd call that an overreaction on your part.
This post is scummy. If anyone doesn't understand why, let me know.
Letting you know btw.
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@DV, it's probably the part where you skip over the implications of Kosa's accusation and generally act like having the entire justification of your vote undermined isn't an important issue. But hey, I'm a facts kinda guy.
After re-reading the thread, and letting KoDs Great Wall of China post sink in. I like the facts and points that you have brought up in your post. Also appreciate your input into my attempts to generate content.
@DV, it's probably the part where you skip over the implications of Kosa's accusation and generally act like having the entire justification of your vote undermined isn't an important issue. But hey, I'm a facts kinda guy.
After re-reading the thread, and letting KoDs Great Wall of China post sink in. I like the facts and points that you have brought up in your post. Also appreciate your input into my attempts to generate content.
Vote DoTArchon
What do you think was the best point against DOTA?
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I've been pretty slow to do the Kosa thing. I've been keeping up with the Dallas police shootings all night. Literally was walking 1 block from where it went down to the government building three weeks ago to swear into the Navy. So yea I'm a bit heated atm.
Also I'd like whoever noticed what I did prior if it is telling, never been in a predicament like this and would like past examples that I could compare to.
Also I'd like whoever noticed what I did prior if it is telling, never been in a predicament like this and would like past examples that I could compare to.
I think this is directed at me, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you asking for examples of where scum in another game did the same thing you did? I just felt the mindset you were approaching the game from was "not-town," not that anything you specifically did was a scum tell. Like I said, I put myself in your shoes and couldn't see why you would say that as town.
Of course, that's contingent on you recognizing that Mindreaver was obviously joking about his read on JD. If, as you say, you weren't sure, then I can see most of what you said being reasonable as town even if it isn't what I would have said.
@SC I feel that the best points against against DoT are the piling dirt onto me and the reaction to my responses. What is your thoughts/opinion on this SC?
Isn't FoS'ing without voting a major scumtell? If you aren't Guardman, that is.
Then again, I'm rusty as heck on this.
First post reminded me of what a scumbuddy of mine did in Starcraft Mafia, fencesit talking about FoS/doing so while also questioning their own experience.
Reads up to #65 or so:
Liking Sir Chris so far, even though he sometimes set my Kosa Sense off a bit (for exemple on #12. Don't think it's anything tangible, just cinic gut feel).
Oh and:
Oh man if I am ever telling you I am being completely honest, you should lynch me you have surely caught a scum Chris lying through his teeth. Unless it is like, you know, later in the game or something where transparency needs to happen usually. But day 1 yeah I am a sneaky guy who tends to plot a lot of stuff against scum.
20 posts in and we're already up with meta self-consciousness? I missed this subforum so much
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Disliking KoD. Didn't like the voteless "Major" FoS at all, nor the forced (#6) and/or half-assed ways of expressing suspicion (#8 and #15). The latter might just be a lighthearted way to be funny/have fun, I don't know the guy, but it didnt jive well on me.
#24 on the other hand confuses me. I can't see scum OMGUS'ing like that so early in the game. Reads as VI (no offense intended). Don't know what's happening here.
KoD. I noticed you tend to explain yourself a lot. Why didn't you comment on my post over your FoS at #65?
Shock's #20 is terrible. If he's scum, Chris and Kod are almost certainly townslapping each other.
Ok, this I know is town!Chris. He is critically thinking, aggressively posting, and doesn't give two *****s if he pisses someone off.
I'm clearing SC....
Based on?
And how much do you know Sir Chris' town meta to reach that conclusion in a handful of posts?
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I disagree with jd's #33, but like him for pointing it out.
TappingStones seems fine.
Mindreaver's #51 seems BusyStuff(tm). The last sentence makes no sense to me from a town PoV.
Vote Mindreaver
Cythare, when will you start playing the game? Is there a reason as to why you are pseudo-mimicking KoD?
Says he's like Chris so far but had his "Kosa Sense" go off and talks about #12 not being tangible but cinic gut? I don't see wth he's talking about that could be triggering, it was literally straightforward and this is just a fluff part of the post.
Brings up meta self-consciousness, the most complicated thing to have been brought up in contrast to his other "reads."
Expresses suspicion towards KoD with the FoS from earlier and calls it forced, then calls #8/15 half-assed ways of expressing suspicion which I completely disagree with- "stares at DV" can be interpreted as a glare like "wth is your problem?" and the other isn't half-assed, he's driving home his theory about randomly clearing and being quite clear on what he believes. And then explains an alternative to those half-assed posts could be funny/having fun which I struggle to comprehend how 15 especially can be read like that unless you are explicitly just talking about him squinting which is narrow and bad to call half-assed. So essentially more fluff from you as I can see unless you had a vote on him but then you get back to what's holding you back....
#24 you can't read as scum OMGUSing early like that. He actually spent a good deal of time arguing with Chris, and perhaps weighing his own feeling on the situation. So to insinuate you think such as a OMGUS without reference to how it built up is complete negligence. Further confirmation with you saying don't know what's happening here so fluff again.
Calling Shock's #20 terrible and then if he's scum, Chris and KoD are townslapping is another great example of me completely disagreeing (all scenarios present and bringing in popcorn isn't alignment telling in any way, it's playful for sure and perhaps not useful for solving the game or giving a tell on his own alignment but to call it terrible is terrible) and just more fluff.
Questions Necarg on meta/read.
Then his reads. Don't like his interpretation of MR's #51 and how he sees it making no sense from a town POV. This was the most telling part of his post.
Good vibes from Half_Time for no particular reason.
Sir Chris' #70 has two minor language tells against him, which is odd since he's an enough experienced player to not incur on that. Food for thought, though.
Liking TappingStones so far except for the Fable vote, which is bad. Still town though.
Fable's posting style reminds me of DRey. Which means he's probably town.
Necarg's reasoning for voting Fable in #85 is the worst of the bunch and textbook bandwagoning. Consider my vote on you as well.
...
Mindreaver's #89 is mindboggling. It looks so much like coaching that it can't possibly be.
Nevertheless, it's terrible though. Absolutely noncommital, and it's first sentence is, again, BusyStuff. You're lucky that I don't have a bullet else I'd have vigged you on the spot after that.
More people should be voting for MR, like, seriously. And if he's scum, Fable is 99% scum with him.
...
D_V, reasoning for your vote on Silver?
jd why no vote though? Vote him. Do it.
Ok, wait. #106 > Mindreaver, are you inexperienced with Mafia?
More reads which aren't explained and says Fable's posting reminds him of DRey without explaining, but wants others to explain their metareads.
But again, the most telling part of this post is his calling MR's posts bad again(#89), which I don't agree with. Then throws in asking others to vote him and pulls a theory that he is almost certainly scum with Fable for the "open coaching" stuff that I didn't see. So this is in complete contrast to his meta read on Fable being like DRey. So strict contrast here.
Then asks more questions and questions MR's experience. Begin of backpedal?
@Silver: Idk why I thought you asked about MR/Fable, not TS/Fable. Leaning town on both, yeah. I don't agree with TS's vote but I can understand why one would do it.
@Mindreaver: I was obviously posting in a stream-of-consciouness way, reading post by post and updating notes on the fly.
Your #51 is terrible because of a reason you yourself define in it:
Well, it's an interesting mindset. It's being "helpful" but not with anything that will actually help us solve the game.
First, Fable's post you reference is actually helpful. The way I saw it, he's warning us to not run in circles over a player's stubborness he's used to and we aren't. He's not trying to look like anything, he's just like, "*sigh*".
Then, you proceed in a long post that appears to be helpful but doesn't actually help us, from a town!you PoV, to solve the game. It's full of fluff that makes you appear to be useful without actually being so. BusyStuff.
And then there's that last sentence. It doesn't make sense if you're actually wanting to pressure someone for reads.
So, why did you feel the need to write up something like that post? Why not instead tell me what you think about his behavior to date? Do you think he's more likely to be town or scum based on his interactions thus far? I'm leaning town.
You just laid out three questions for Fable regarding KoD, because you're supposedly interested in what his opinion on KoD is since that would help you form your own opinion on both (but mostly Fable). Then you end that with "I'm leaning town". All the pressure you're supposedly interested in applying is useless because you're basically giving an out for Fable to just /barn you and move on. It's fake pressure, and it doesn't come from someone who's attemping to solve the game. That is not a town mindset.
The only thing giving me pause is your now-known inexperience. I can see why you would, as town, post some of what I read as scumtells, but that #51 is so much more scummy than all the rest I've seen in this game so far that I still want you to DIAF for now.
Why is JD scum?
@Necarg: meta analysis is useless without both sides of the meta.
Confuses MR/Fable with TS/Fable.
Argues against Mindreaver about #51's last sentence not coming from town POV and calling the rest fluff/BusyStuff. The only thing to have him skeptical about this read/line of play is MR's inexperience? Looking like a way out to backpedal after a bad case.
Questions why he thinks JD is scum. Super buddying with my slot because he's pushing MR so hard.
Then brings up meta analysis being useless without both sides which is in contrast to his read on Fable from earlier.
Yeah, we just differ here. I wasn't going for pressure. His opinion in the matter wasn't really the point, because I had already mentioned in all the "busystuff" that I'm not going to base my read on KoD on Fable's read of KoD. I really just wanted him to agree or disagree and see what I could learn from that. Instead he declined to engage, which was disappointing.
He declined to engage and you just accepted it and gave up? Why no follow up?
Secondly, I'm not meta-clearing anyone. I'm definitely not meta-clearing somebody on the say-so of somebody else. I don't care if Sir Chis thinks D_V is the swellest guy in the whole wide world, or if JD decides to call everyone in the thread a moron. Show me behavior.
Meta. He has scumread me every single time, and every single time he is unwavering in that read, and EVERY TIME I'm town. He's just my nemesis, in a non-terrible-star-trek-movie type way.
It wasn't helpful in any sense that matters in the game. Fable didn't provide any constructive guidelines to give you an idea of how I play as town or scum. Despite his post, you'll have to engage me if you want to get anywhere with me. His post only helps if you want to avoid engaging me, and that won't help progress views by avoiding talking to me. Yes, avoiding since I don't see how else you would take a "warning" from Fable about me and not run in circles over my stubbornness. Until you actually talk to me, you can't know how I will react to you or what you're talking about.
You're missing the point. Compare Fable's post to Mindreaver's: Fable's is completely genuine. He's not attempting to appear useful. His post is not diversion or anything. It's a front-of-mind point about you. Alone, it doesn't make him town nor scum per se.
Mindreaver's, on the other hand, is criticizing him for attempting to appear useful while doing nothing despite doing exactly that.
So the conclusion is that you do what you're being called scum for here regardless of alignment.
Am I missing something?
Calls Mind out for a difference in line of play with respect to meta.
Argues with KoD about Fable/Mindreaver calling MR out for potcallingkettleblack and saying Fable is completely genuine.
More Necarg meta stuff at end.
@KoD: There's good reasoned flak, and there's opportunism.
@Necarg: So are you acknowledging your vote on Fable as being a terrible play?
What do you think of Mindreaver?
@Mindreaver: You explicitly said you aren't meta-clearing anyone, asking for behavior, and yet answered my question on your read on JD as "meta". Stop being dismissive.
More votes on Mindreaver please.
Further conversation with KoD/Necarg and still driving home MR.
Isn't FoS'ing without voting a major scumtell? If you aren't Guardman, that is.
Then again, I'm rusty as heck on this.
This is a scumpost. He's hoping that someone else is going to do the dirty work on the fos. vote Kosa
The underestimation of my skills in Mafia as scum is touching. I almost feel ofended. Missed you too
@TappingStones:
Regarding #201: you go on and make your "case" against me. However, the last post you scrutinize is #113. Mind you, I had 5~6 posts after it that you never bothered to comment, but ok, maybe you didn't find something you dislike about those.
But you know what doesn't mesh? Since your scumread on me was formed at and/or before #113, you could have made your case against me in a bunchful of posts.
In #137.
In #146.
In #148.
In #151.
In #158.
In #161.
In #164.
In #166.
That's eight posts. Yet you don't even MENTION my name in ANY of those.
But, conveniently, after Rhand votes me out of nowhere in #194 with very limited reasoning, you go ahead and find an excuse to "read" me as scum in #197.
Isn't FoS'ing without voting a major scumtell? If you aren't Guardman, that is.
Then again, I'm rusty as heck on this.
This is the type of tell I've been trying to look out for in the early game. Someone asks a question in an attempt to create suspicion?
Oh, were you really? The very next post after mine quoted is yours. And you only "notice" the type of tell you were trying to look out for after Rhand makes a point about it? Yeah, sure
TS is textbook opportunistic scum. More votes on him please.
Switches to TS calling him out for opportunistic vote. Argues you have to interact with someone to scumread them, which is not a case at all.
That's like the most omgus vote I've ever seen. Cute.
Lolwat. I'm not saying that he sucks. I'm saying that he waited for a wagon on me to be formed so to jump on it. He posts eight times and doesn't mention me even once, but when Rhand replaces in and votes me with ridiculously limited (read:bad) reasoning, TS does the same on absurd grounds and barns the post that made Rhand vote me despite that post being there for like, ever. He even Silver Rages over it.
His motivations to vote me are completely false. He is scum.
Still arguing opportunism, and brings up "I'm not saying that he sucks" could absolutely be paranoia of doing a OMGUS.
Townpost and a bit of a slapdown on top of it. Mindreaver very methodically picks apart the weak reasoning being thrown at him. he's even demonstrating cognizance of town and scum motivations.
UNVOTE; VOTE:Kosakosa
I'll come back and give you the rest when I'm off work but the reread as some questionable posts from Kosa and he's shot to the top of the list.
He's not picking apart anything. I wasn't voting him for seemingly coaching Fable, that was just a comment on the absurdity of that post if both indeed were scum.
I voted him for doing the same he was critizicing Fable for, difference being, I've perceived Fable being genuine while MR was not.
How is cognizance demonstration of faction motivations a town trait again?
References earlier actions in the game. But I think the "comment on the absurdity of that post if both indeed were scum." is in contrast to believing Fable is 99% scum with Mind after that. I don't see town bringing in random figures like that unless they were certain about that interaction. Fluff to appear towny.
I just don't understand how your first reaction was to say "TS never mentioned me and made a case on me, but he never mentioned me in the last few posts therefore he is scum".
It just
What?
Only scum care about things like that.
Wtf. Did you even read what I wrote?
My point is about timing. I was laying my points on MR and vice-versa since #113 (the post TS stops PBPA'ing me).
He had not mentioned me at all. Then Rhand comes in, votes me with a one-liner of a bad reasoning (and never delves further into why I am scum btw), and suddenly TS has me as scum.
Yeah, sure. How convenient for him that he suddenly saw all that scumminess hidden in my posts. Out of nowhere the player he wasn't interested in interacting with for like, hm, the whole game, is scum
Seriously. Wake up.
IDK guys, TS not posting about him means TS has no thoughts outside of game, seriously wake up
@Kosa: you are at the same time agreeing that what I said is a scumtell (denying it applies to you), while calling my observation bad. What goves?
Nope, what I meant is that if I were scum, you (nor hardly anyone) wouldn't catch me in my first post. For believing that you did so, you must think I suck at this game.
Taking into account that TS goes back to follow up not only on the subject that rhand brought up when he voted but a post killjoy made before the fact, and I'm pretty sure TS didn't see rhand's vote before making his own, indicating the pile on was likely coincidental.
You can't be sure of that. TS' vote on me came one hour after Rhand's. And what does KJ's post has to do with anything? It was an OoG post.
Critical of timing now, TS vote one hour after Rhand's, was a much better case for opportunism than the arguments he made before. But it still isn't telling and could absolutely be backtracking to look for an out.
I like this half_time guy too. He is paranoid and a critical thinker. Those tend to be town.
/barn
OoG kind-ish regarding #327: how does coaching as town annoy scum? Coaching is perceived to be a scum trait, therefore something you can be lynched over. I can't see scum getting annoyed by that.
I don't think it was necessary to tag on "OoG kind-ish" here, he's already brought up coaching before with regards to Mindreaver on Fable. So it should be relevant to his investigation and tacking that on feels defensive/paranoid.
Isn't FoS'ing without voting a major scumtell? If you aren't Guardman, that is.
Then again, I'm rusty as heck on this.
This is the type of tell I've been trying to look out for in the early game. Someone asks a question in an attempt to create suspicion?
Already pointed out the flaw in this, but I'll delve further by explaining what Silver Rage is. The following is an excerpt of a post from Arianrhod (formerly SilverSihhe) in Ataghan Mafia:
I was going to comment on the mass color claim thing, but it seems as though everything I was going to say has already been said. I tend to post during the morning/afternoon EST (from work), and not much at all overnight, so I have a feeling this is going to happen a lot, given the activity overnight. Rage.
In short, early in the game someone proposed to massclaim personal info regarding a mechanic of that game and a couple players pointed out what a bad idea that would be for town.
Arian was scum that game. That post gave name to the scumtell "Silver Rage", that is, the annoyance scum demonstrate when they miss the timing on an opportunity to make them appear town.
Now read your sentence again and attempt to convince me that wasn't exactly what you did.
It's essentially a tag question and could also be written as such. "Fos'ing without voting is a major scumtell, isn't it?" He's actually trying to convey his thought but the tag line "isn't" makes it look like a question. It can also be read as "Do you guys want to go after him?" If someone refutes him and says no, it isn't; he will look safe because he can say "it was just a question". The final sentence is a gross addition. Super aware of what he's doing he sort of slips here. "Then again, I'm rusty as heck at this." Can also be read as, I'm not invested in this if you aren't.
Or it can be read as "It's been two years since I've played Mafia".
If I wanted to go after KoD, I'd have voted him, regardless of alignment.
Liking Sir Chris so far, even though he sometimes set my Kosa Sense off a bit (for exemple on #12. Don't think it's anything tangible, just cinic gut feel).
Oh man if I am ever telling you I am being completely honest, you should lynch me you have surely caught a scum Chris lying through his teeth. Unless it is like, you know, later in the game or something where transparency needs to happen usually. But day 1 yeah I am a sneaky guy who tends to plot a lot of stuff against scum.
20 posts in and we're already up with meta self-consciousness? I missed this subforum so much
So here's another one that matches the mindset of his first post. Check this out. He says he likes SC but then in the next sentence says he's setting off a scum detector and then gives multiple references. Then as a final thought he AGAIN tries to distance himself from the shade he's cast "Don't think it's anything tangible, just c[l]inic gut feel" So read it over. I read through a couple times to see if I was jumping the gun. He says some nondescript positive comment about SC and then proceeds to say he might be doing some scummy things and then shows us evidence. Town doesn't usually say "I like this guy, but here's a scum case on him." Scum that doesn't want to get caught do that. He's tip-toeing around the cookie jar.
I'm not attempting to cast shade. I'm laying out that I like Sir Chris, and although some posts made my gut question my view on him, I couldn't find anything concrete to justify it, so he's town to me.
It's literally the same as doing a T/S list and putting Sir Chris in the cyan color pile. Do you consider cyan piles an attempt to cast shade on that player by the list poster?
And how much do you know Sir Chris' town meta to reach that conclusion in a handful of posts?
In response to Necarg town-reading SC. Questions a meta-clearance. Which would be otherwise null but Necarg's comments bare resemblance to kosa's they both say they like his play as town.
This is false. Necarg cleared Sir Chris on meta, and based on what, 10 posts? My town read on Sir Chris had nothing to do with other games.
Sir Chris' #70 has two minor language tells against him, which is odd since he's an enough experienced player to not incur on that. Food for thought, though.
Going after SC again. Building a case. Says there are two so-called "minor" tells against him. But still creates distance from this assertion. Saying it's "odd" not outright "scummy", and that it's "food for thought". Begging for a wagon! "Think about SC guys. I don't want to do the voting I'll just keep saying he's being odd and setting off my alarms."
I've already said I had Sir Chris as town. Why would scum!me want town to go on a player that I repeatedly called town and wasn't under any scrutiny?
Yeah, great case. As great as your scumread on me.
Responds to TS, explains what silverrage is but I don't like/think it's possible he is actually in belief that that would be a tell.
@KoD: I'm a dude and I'll be sure to post Camouflaged Tutus from now on.
Will get to the other stuff but one thing I need to bring up now-
@Silver: You should definitely know what I am talking about unless you aren't reading. You arguably had the biggest chance to not overlook it but if you continue to be scummy by being paranoid of me suspecting you and not reading, the more suspect you are.
Also I'd like whoever noticed what I did prior if it is telling, never been in a predicament like this and would like past examples that I could compare to.
I think you're missing some words in there, because I honestly can't make heads or tails of it. "I'd like whoever noticed what I did prior (to tell me) if it is telling"? Which predicament are you referring to exactly?
There's quite a bit of room for interpretation, you could be talking about some kind of tell you saw from someone else or about what I thought I saw from you. I don't see how asking you to be more explicit is scummy, especially when your sentence doesn't seem to be complete.
Also I'd like whoever noticed what I did prior if it is telling, never been in a predicament like this and would like past examples that I could compare to.
I think you're missing some words in there, because I honestly can't make heads or tails of it. "I'd like whoever noticed what I did prior (to tell me) if it is telling"? Which predicament are you referring to exactly?
There's quite a bit of room for interpretation, you could be talking about some kind of tell you saw from someone else or about what I thought I saw from you. I don't see how asking you to be more explicit is scummy, especially when your sentence doesn't seem to be complete.
Brinatoo, probably. Most of it is between me and him if you just want to iso us, I guess. And KoD's wall. But that's most of the walls you skimmed or skipped, I think, so...
I think you're missing some words in there, because I honestly can't make heads or tails of it. "I'd like whoever noticed what I did prior (to tell me) if it is telling"? Which predicament are you referring to exactly?
There's quite a bit of room for interpretation, you could be talking about some kind of tell you saw from someone else or about what I thought I saw from you. I don't see how asking you to be more explicit is scummy, especially when your sentence doesn't seem to be complete.
I talk/write with a bit of an accent being raised in Texas. I talk with implied stuff as you figure out with the parentheses. I should use dashes more to separate it.
Both of you read 338 again. I'm not going to be handing out favors, please read what I specifically could only be talking about and give me your opinion.
So, clarifying that you're talking about a post from days ago and the last page is "handing out favors"?
What [I]specifically[I] are you asking about that I didn't cover in my #339? I didn't have anything else to say about that post, so if you want a further response you'll have to tell me what you want me to respond to.
So, clarifying that you're talking about a post from days ago and the last page is "handing out favors"?
What [I]specifically[I] are you asking about that I didn't cover in my #339? I didn't have anything else to say about that post, so if you want a further response you'll have to tell me what you want me to respond to.
Seriously. Look through it again. What is out of place? By "me not handing out favors" is me not wanting to intentionally quote it, so it can still potentially be more telling, and two is because I shouldn't have to baby you through reading a post that you should have read all the way through.
Also I'd like whoever noticed what I did prior if it is telling, never been in a predicament like this and would like past examples that I could compare to.
I think you're missing some words in there, because I honestly can't make heads or tails of it. "I'd like whoever noticed what I did prior (to tell me) if it is telling"? Which predicament are you referring to exactly?
Brinatoo, instead of being so belligerent, can you just answer this? It's a little confusing, even after re-reading 338 (which is mostly about silver scum reading you because of your (mis)read on me). Specifically, just give me a noun instead of pronoun for the bolded part. What situation do you think you're in? Replacing in? Misinterpreting my posts? Being scum read by Silver?
You might think whatever point you're trying to make is obvious, but I'm telling you it isn't (at least to me).
While you're at it, please answer my question from 347
I read #338 all the way through. Three times. Nothing is sticking out at me, with the very possible exception of the TappingStones thing. So now I'm going to reverse quote it because I don't think it needs to be hidden or guessed at. I'm not sure why it would be more telling if everyone figured out what you were talking about by themselves, either. Being cryptic doesn't serve very well if you're trying to get information.
I'm also intentionally asking the Stones of Tapping for the last time to answer my question at the end of this paragraph because there's a chance he's just looking at what he cares to look at(I don't think he would overlook something as town)if he overlooks it again after this he is scum. I'd like to assume that others haven't answered that question because they want him to answer which at this point I specifically want him to answer now.
So, you're asking TS questions and he's ignoring you. Instead of, like, bolding his name and asking him again (or asking the thread at large), you're asking other people to go back through your iso and do a scavenger hunt for questions you asked someone else?
But I clicked back to #296 to see what you were talking about, and I guess you're referring to this?
(@TS:) You do things that I would not expect from town. I was hoping you would answer my implied question." and need an explanation on this nolynch meta... and why GJ has been brought up about it?" 1)I don't like how a no-lynch vote and subsequent push on it in rvs would be any different from a vote on a player. It's weird. I am not for an actual no lynch but pushing an rvs vote on it from POV is just some meta crap I've never heard of. Which.... 2)Is why I asked you, or anyone for that matter seems knowledgable about this weird meta if you don't want to answer. I find it strange you overlooked that question. 3)Refer to my previous post and above to figure it out.
But I still don't really know what you're asking. So back to #282 I go...
(@TS:) I don't like your line of play towards this no-lynch vote. But I also have no idea what you guys are talking about and esp. why KoD hates it as much as he does and need an explanation on this nolynch meta... and why GJ has been brought up about it? I don't get it but behaviorally on your push you call him out on it, say it wasn't serious but you had the motivation to figure out his line of play... Which is what makes me question your line of play but this just falls back to me being unable to read you. I don't think you would be scumbuddies with Fable after your discussion with them.
Ok. So you're asking... something about my No Lynch RVS vote. I guess I'll just try to cover everything I can think of.
Well, now that silver is backing off the no lynch thing, here is my post concerning that.
So many of you know GJ votes no lynch in the beginning of games, often. Nobody ever remembers *why* he does that. Town responses are easy to read, they are usually "What? that's stupid". Scum on the other hand, are caught off guard and try to appear town by debating the logic or the statistics or what have you, because it's an abnormal position that clearly favors their goals. It's also a safe topic, that allows content generation without actually committing to anything.
It's actually a pretty smart move with this many new faces, that might be caught off guard.
It's not as effective to regulars here, because people are used to it. DoTA's response is an example of that, completely null (although I could make WIFOM arguments about him knowing the right things not to say. You scum DoTA? Don't lie to me). TS's response is also reading town to me, because he's at least trying to figure out Silver's thought process, even though he disagrees with the play.
KoD's response is what I'd expect of a town player not used to seeing that early no lynch vote. Because silver made a ridiculous stance as the first post of the game with 19 people in it.
I think this was the thing that resulted in your questions about No Lynch RVS, Meta, GJ, etc. in tandem with TS's line of play regarding it? (or else you missed it.) Here are my thoughts:
Basically, the players from the other forum (Shockwave, KoD, Fable) and maybe some of the returning players (Also Shockwave, Kosa, Col_Mongoose?) aren't used to people voting No Lynch during RVS. No Lynching is a pretty unusual vote from town - it's widely considered a terrible plan, and the only reason people here laugh it off is because GJ votes it in almost every game. You're used to it just being an RVS vote (maybe?), but that's only true within the current MTGS meta. That's why KoD took it seriously, and why I was surprised TappingStones took it seriously, but maybe he thought I was serious because I'm not GJ.
Based on his other stuff in thread I'm lightly town reading TappingStones, and honestly I don't know that him ignoring your questions is necessarily scummy... Otherwise Sir Chris and Kosa are scummy because they're both ignoring me.
If there's anything that didn't clear up I'd be more than happy to answer further questions (if I can).
I will be addressing everything further into the week. I am in SLC right now and am overloaded with work. I will get around to rereading this game though, hopefully before the in game day is out.
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Welp, Chris was in bed all weekend with the flu and now I am very behind. Well, time to not feel bad about it and start fresh. I'm sure nothing important was said this past week anyway, right?
So Silver, my pal who doesn't like to be ignored, what exactly did you want me to say to you? Give me specifics to research and I will, but I dislike catching up and unfortunately I put myself behind the eight ball this week on that.
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Can someone help me search out questions to me, and also make an ISO of Kosa's posts? Phone keeps crashing when I try to scroll through the text walls here and it makes it a pain to read.
May have to play fast and loose just to keep some sense of momentum going.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I came back after pretty much five days away and come to find almost nothing has happened. Sad.
What's Brinato on about? I've reread through his posts and can't find what he's asking me.
@Brinato-What about the no lynch thing are you unclear about? To summarize (which I've already explained in thread twice) I don't think "no lynch" as a plan without extenuating circumstances is a good idea. I'm of the mindset that we want a crack at killing scum and getting a flip at the very least on day one. I think people who try and vote no lynch are partaking in anti-town behavior. Note, that doesn't mean I would scum read them because town engage in all kinds of actions that hinder the town. I also don't like that it's purposefully trying to create WIFOM and confuse people.
* Cythare throws a blue scarf around her neck, then meows in apology, rolling a strange red and white ball across the floor. She hisses at Fable, but then hisses at Kosakosa again too. *
@Sir Chris: I'm not terribly worried about it, especially if you've been sick, I just thought it was interesting that Brinatoo brought it up about TappingStones.
If I had to be more specific, Brinatoo's #271 was what caught my attention so I'd like your impression of it. I'd prefer just your general thoughts on his play (his iso is only a page long) but if you don't want to go digging backwards I guess that's fine.
@Shockwave: Link to Kosa's iso. If you iso Kosa and give us a read on him that's all I was looking for and I don't think anyone else tried to engage you while you were gone.
@Cythare: Sorry for being gone because of the 4th maybe? And you're still scum reading Fable and Kosa? That's my best guess.
@Rhand: I forgot I had a question for you from earlier. What was scummy about JD's vote post (#33)?
* Cythare hits a button on the strange ball and a Tribble pops out. Cythare quickly pounces on it, bats it around, and stuffs it back inside the ball. *
Do something useful instead. Thoughts on kosa would be a start, since you've focused on Rhand, TS, Cythare. and KoD; and I don't see us lynching any of those,
Besides I'm fine focusing on Rhand because he feels more scummy to me than Kosa does. That whole situation looked like scum trying to catch a townie off guard hoping to get a scummy response out of kosa. Or rather TS started applying pressure I think Rhand was trying to take advantage of that and decided to pile on.
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No need to put words in my mouth. Nice strawman though. What I'm saying is, it doesn't make sense to...
...do this. Why would you take it upon yourself to do this, just because Kosa mentioned it. He didn't say it to you. YOU chose to write about it. Then, YOU chose to not only post your findings (which is fine, and not my issue), but to scumread TS for a different reason altogether. My question is, why did YOU choose to do this in the same post? It's a perfectly reasonable question about why YOU have acted in a specific way. Explain that, instead of dodging with hyperbole, and I'll be happy.
This is exactly my point, they were treated differently. That could mean nothing. Or it could mean everything.
Thank you.
What? No.
He's offered literally zero justification for his vote. Stop trying to play semantics with this. His vote on TS is because TS voted him. Period. End of conversation. It's crap stop trying to twist something into something it isn't. Your point that it wasn't "Text book OMGUS" is kinda true, but not really. He did offer some support for his vote. That support has no merit and is total bunk, but sure he offered support.
@Kosakosa:
@Sir Chris:
I'd still like to hear your thoughts on Brinatoo when you get a chance.
@Shockwave:
I know you're not caught up, but I'm still looking for input on Kosa.
@TappingStones:
What were you hoping to get out of my T/S list?
@Killjoy:
Why did you ask about my Mafia experience?
@Col_Mongoose:
Are you still rethinking TappingStones? I thought he was just listing his scum reads, not necessarily drawing alignments between them.
@Rhand:
What was scummy about JD's vote post (#33)? I see what he's saying that KoD was being self-aware about being accused of fishing but I don't think self-awareness is necessarily a scum tell, either.
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And what exactly doesn't make sense? I found a situation to be suspect. I stated I'd evaluate the corresponding past posts the next day. I came back and did and posted my follow up in thread. Does it make more sense to you to say, "This situation is sketch. Imma dig into it." And then say nothing else about it?
Of course they were treated differently. As I just said they are completely different situations. Reactive vs proactive.
@DV, you realize you just completely contradictory yourself there, ja? Clearly you concede that there were reasons in that post and you wish to continue to pursue an OMGUS argument. So flesh it out for me. Where is kosa off base? What exactly delutes the merit of his arguments?
If you weren't a newer player I might have considered that position scummy, but for now it's fine.
That's fair though.
I've explained this.
What do you not get?
His argument is.
TS voted me "Out of the blue" so he is scum.
That's not an argument or even a valid reason.
What is confusing about this?
V/LA 24-36 hours. I'm off to the airport. I might be able to answer here and there from airport wifi but not guaranteed.
Anyway, I'll get my reads post out first and save this particular argument for a separate post so I can delve into the juicy details.
Back in a flash.
I'm not sure how things are played on the other forum but being" your grandfather" doesn't make him town. I'm not sure how roles are given out there, but here they are given randomly. You or I or even your "grandfather" can roll scum. So "auto-agreeing" with someone is illogical play on your part because you don't know his alignment and you've also admitted to not reading up so your agreement holds no value in the first place.
What do we care if a guy who hasn't read up agrees with something?
You don't understand what that implies. Every player makes logical errors from time to time. Your "grandfather" isn't a flawless human being. But it's been pointed out by no less than four players that you have no idea what logical play implies.
I want to note here that KOD is on record saying he
1)Hasn't read the argument
2)Is barn/ Half because they've known each other from the forum for a long time (WTF???????)
3)He's going to go back and try to support Half's case without knowing what it's even about. You can't claim to agree with something you haven't read yet. That's another logical fallacy! This guy is a gold mine so far.
Hi KoD
Killjoy - Blank.
DoTArchon - Blank.
Cythare - Town feel. Already commented on.
Silvercrys3467 - Blank.
Wasabipea - Blank.
D_V - Town feel. Already commented on.
jdawesomesauce / Brinatoo - Blank.
TappingStones - Null to scum feel. Already commented on.
Necarg - Scum feel. Already commented on.
Mindreaver - Town feel. Already commented on.
Shockwave07 - Blank.
Half_Time - It's complicated.
Fable07 - Scum feel. Already commented on.
Wheat_Grinder / Seppel - Blank.
Kosakosa - Scum feel currently. More to come concerning the situation around him.
Yomako / Rhand - Blank.
Sir Chris - Null to town feel (still dislike early interaction with him). Already commented on.
col_mongoose - Blank.
Ok, the names with Blank next to them are people I don't have an impression of due to not having delved into their posts. Below, I will be going through each of the posts belonging to each Blank player and giving my thoughts on them. The situation revolving around Kosa will be addressed separately from this, so I will exclude those players involved in that from this section (the major ones that is).
Killjoy - Upon reviewing his first two posts, I feel there is only a little noteworthy content in them. His comments to Chris wrt to me and the fishing are really the only real stuff I see him make a sort of stance on (he refers to thinking the same thing essentially that Chris was when Chris responded to me). Other than that, he makes note of Fable's KoD Rules and asks for links to games that I've played in. I notice that unlike Necarg, Kill says that Chris picking fights doesn't make him town (in contrast to Necarg stating this is town Chris due to the aggressive and critical thinking he's showing). Overall, after these two posts, I get a slight town lean from him. Moving on to other posts of his now.
He comments about DV's "clear" (still hate that word) of Chris and how he interpreted it as serious compared to Mind viewing it as playful. His next two posts are him promising more content since he's been busy and/or tired. The third post is him greeting two players (that replaced in I believe) and then commenting on how he doesn't think Fable and I are scum aligned together. No specifics given mind you. His next posts has him asking about for a game both Fable and I have been in to check something (not stated). I believe Shock provided a game where both Fable and I were scum together. Kill goes on to ask Silver a question wrt to being new to mafia. Looks like he was looking at Silver due to barely any scum reads or something.
Overall feel about Kill: He started off relatively ok (it isn't like he had any major impact on discussion or anything). As far as I can tell, he's just here. His dislike of Fable without stating any specifics is a ping on my scumdar due to how easy it was/is for people to bandwagon onto Fable (due to how he is acting). Don't get me wrong, even I think Fable has been scummy on a variety of occasions; however, for Kill to come in despite saying he'd add more content and given next to nothing comes off as scummy. I am leaning scum on him because of his relative cruising through the game despite more than enough time having passed for ***good*** content to be produced.
DoTArchon - Ok, this guy/gal next. Opening posts ring of playfulness. First three posts I don't perceive any content. More like fluff that is there. Fourth post provides actual content. Lots of areas mentioned. Like's AwesomeSauces's(JD's) point about me being self aware wrt to not posting to ask why (I've beaten that to death). Hm, comments to Stones about DoT's opening post being forced (the one concerning Silver voting No Lynch). DoT never bolded the vote (at least from what I can see in this ISO) so I don't see how it can feel forced. Asks DV how the Fable wagon is a bad one. Gives general reads lumping a lot of people as null/lean town with Stones at the top, then mentions 3 players that are at the bottom of her list that are to be considered scum for her: Kosa (via a post Stones gave at the top of page 5), JD (via mentioning Mind having good points -- no specifics given like what points were good if not all), and Mongoose (ends up voting) for coming out of nowhere and voting Rhand while having minimal amount of posts. Note for later assessment pending rest of posts (self aware).
Moving on to other posts from DoT. Huh, so next post DoT addresses Mind talking about his "points" against JD. DoT cites several posts, one of which is admittedly (via Mind pointing it out in an argument with someone else questioning him over it) a post made in jest/playfulness/etc. Actually even the second post (of the three) confirms that playfulness. The third post is aimed at Kosa. So, echoing Mind, I don't see what good points DoT is talking about. Oh, and before I forget, the previous post where DoT gave reads has DoT liking a point JD made (against me via the self aware thing), then, in the same breath of the post, labels him as scummy for reasons she cites via posts she quotes from Mind (when Mind asked); however, said posts don't have any reasons aimed at JD at all. There is a serious disconnect here, and this is scummy. I still have more posts to go through though not too many. Finishing up that post though, DoT's response to Goose makes me cringe because -- well actually let me paint it since this is actually bothering me.
So, DoT's first content post touches on various subjects. That's cool. Not that they really go anywhere. Then she gets to her reads and, more or less, downplays her like of a point JD made by reading him as scum due to nonexistent points from Mind. Now Mind, feel free to correct me on this. You stated you didn't have points against JD. Indeed, the posts DoT quoted don't seem to have any points against JD at all as opposed to just stating facts. The third post, as I mentioned, is you looking at Kosa for his interaction with JD. That's not something you are throwing at JD though, correct? As I said above, it is a serious disconnect, but tack onto this that DoT's focus then goes onto Goose. It doesn't stop there though, DoT is, to use a phrase that is fresh in my mind, "self aware" about being the pot calling the kettle black for voting Goose due to his minimal amount of posts of content (like her) and voting someone out of nowhere (Goose's vote of Rhand). Now in this post of DoT's I'm looking at where she responds to Goose, she says, and I quote, "If you had more content in your posts prior to your vote that looked like you were actively trying to work something out then you wouldn't have to worry about scrutiny, as long as your vote aligned with your reads." She goes on to mention mafia theory and looking at why town would do/say what they do/say. The self aware applies to her knowingly attacking a player that has done about as much as she has, but then you have her -- what do you call it? coaching? -- telling Goose that he could have avoided scrutiny by adding more content to his post and voting in line with his reads. Her own reads are questionable (I haven't looked into the Kosa one, but her read of JD for sure given the Mind quotes, and her Goose read reeks of scummyness given how self aware she is, the bit of coaching that describes exactly what she did, and being very much a hypocrite knowingly for going after Goose for the reasons stated.
And I'm still not at the end of her posts. Ok, she asks Goose about his change of perspective on Rhand (haven't looked at Goose, but I don't think he directly stated he viewed him as scum other than just voting Rhand which would fall in line with Goose's explanation of blind voting). Very much dislike the response DoT gives to Goose which just seems to be shoveling more dirt onto Goose for trying to do his own thing to generate discussion (and I'm going to congratulate Goose on trying to do more). Just because there is a lot of content doesn't mean you can't/shouldn't make your own waves if you're up for it. It certainly did something with helping to get a look at how DoT is reacting to you (Goose). DoT also mentions disliking Kosa's vote on TS since (based on meta/playstyle) TS is town. She also mentions focusing on one thing and sticking to it (like Goose) due to not being good at the beginning of large games. I would certainly say that is something that scum would focus on as well since keeping track of a lot of things (your opinions on other players) can potentially cause you to slip up. This is an indirect jab at you (DoT).
Ok, that's all of her posts.
Overall feel: At first I wasn't expecting much (plus I was happy there were a short amount of posts. I've been up making this post for about 5 hours off and on due to getting distracted with games and talking). Anyway, when I got to DoT's first content post, I really gave it a look over for each word. Some things I readily dismissed (and by some, I mean just the one thing about Necar where she talks about Necar possibly having a posting restriction and being Kirk, she even asks him if he is Kirk). What caught my attention, as can be seen, was her reads. Her JD read comes off contradictory to me since she felt JD had a good point. Course I did more digging as I read more of her posts and saw what she cited when asked by Mind (already explained above). Then I focused in on her scum reading Goose (explained above). Overall, I'm drawing a hard line scum vibe from DoT. To give a comparison, I view what she has done here worse than what Necar has did. Until I read up on the Kosa stuff, I feel this is damning for DoT as well.
Unvote, Vote: DoTArchon
Silvercrys3467 - Oh boy. 3 pages on Silver. Alright, so a lot of the early stuff I already interacted with him over. I know I butted heads with him. I'm mostly glancing through these early posts till I get to newer content that doesn't involve me. Ok, so all my arguing with Silver aside (concerning the fishing stuff) everything about Silver's posts up to him responding to Stones about Kosa's question concerning my FoS comes off as town motivated. He's actively engaging in conversations and asking questions at various points. I specifically mention him responding to Stones about Kosa's post because if that's concerning all that stuff with Kosa, then I'm going to save it for when I address that issue specifically. Let's see what else there is.
Ah yes, that whole mention by Fable concerning the Borg and questions about Cythare's Spot the Cat role. I wholeheartedly agree with how Silver responded to Fable over this in that there's no reason to jump to conclusions that a cult exists just because of your (Fable) role mentioning it (and that's assuming Fable is being truthful in the first place). Silver asks Goose and Shock for opinions on Kosa since he is town reading him. And that ends the posts.
Final page of posts. I'm going to make a note to come back to Silver's post requesting people to ISO Mind later. I've got a town read of Mind already, and if there are people scum reading him, then it is worth looking into (though that project has to wait till after the Kosa stuff, unless it is connected). I see your (Silver) interaction with Brina. I'm currently giving it plenty of look over to come to a conclusion there. Ok, I'm aware of the posts Mind made wrt to JD as his nemesis. I will say that perhaps to some people the playfulness could be missed (I mean, refer back to DoT who referenced Mind's posts when talking about Mind having good points against JD). Brina's second post (the one you(Silver) restate) comes off as exactly how she is talking about it. The word usage may indicate a stronger feel than null (in the second post though I'm not sure in the order they occur), but Brina's explanation seems consistent to me when she explained it to you. JD/Brinatoo is a player I'll get to in another area since I have to ISO them, but as far as the posts quoted, I don't see Brina being scummy over it. I must ask, but what was the topic of concern here exactly? That Brina is scum reading Mind over his posts and changed her read recently to town (thus the reference to these posts)? I'll probably find the answer when I end up ISOing Brina.
Moving along. The Kosa statements about Fable and Mind's alignments is sketch to me. Thanks for pointing it out. Ooh, ok. I see why you're arguing with Brin due to a later post where you address her. The focus is on her throwing suspicion on Mind's posts that deal with JD. Even after having mentioned those posts are playful (and they are), she continues arguing the point which is why this argument is here. I have to throw my hat on your side of this given the quotes I'm reading from Brin. Even though you asked Chris his opinion of Brina, here's my immediate impression of Brina: Based on the few quoted posts I saw in your posts, I see where you are coming from the second time around wrt to Brina's posts. As I noted, the first time around it is entirely possible she thinks Mind is being serious about JD (I cite DoT as an example), but despite Mind's posts and their playfulness being mentioned she continues to argue the point. I'd say it is scummy. Comparatively not as scummy as Necar's bandwagon. Probably on the level that Fable has been scummy to me though lower. I say this because if Brina is trying to make Mind out to be suspicious, that makes me question her connection to Kosa then despite her constantly saying she viewed him as scummy. Kind of like a deflection if you will from Kosa.
wrt to thinking I'm stubborn town: The game is young. Perhaps we'll be at each others' throats later in the game if we're both still alive.
I'll come back to your reads post much later for comparisons.
Overall feel: Well, my interaction with him didn't scream scum at me though I did give him scum points at one point. I'd say I was biased with him given the argument over how I was acting towards Chris with the fishing stuff. A bit of time has passed since then, and after having reviewed his posts now, I feel a more towny vibe from him than anything. I'd be comfy with a solid town read for now (though I reserve the right to change this pending how the Kosa stuff pans out once I dig into that). Also, I felt Silver was town motivated in his argument with Brina.
I lost track of time a while ago. I better save this in case something bad happens.
Wasabipea - Only has two posts. Both directed at me. Hasn't been replaced as far as I can tell. Honestly, I got nothing about him. He gives his perception of me based on what had occurred at the time, but without more I can't give a read on him. I will note that his second post does touch up on like everything that was brought up about me.
But yeah, I got nothing.
Ok, so I'm getting a tad tired of this, but I got only a few more to go.
JD/Brina - JD had only like three posts which Mind commented on. I'll just go off the top of my head. Actually two of the posts were right in front of me, and I know that JD talked directly to Mind in a playful manner that was talked about. As far as JD goes, he comes out swinging hard to place a vote staunchly as indicated by his second post where he lets it stand, convinced that I was speaking from a scum mindset wrt to not asking why to Chris. I don't think I'm biased in this assessment when I say that my earlier view of JD stands. His attack on me did come off as opportunistic. There was a long, drawn out conversation about my fishing accusation and not asking why. JD strictly stays with calling me self aware over the whole thing (and yes, I was self aware the moment it was brought up), yet gives no heed to my motivation for speaking my piece over the whole thing. Contrast this whole self aware thing with how I apply self aware to DoT earlier in my post. The motivation for her speaking certainly doesn't seem to come from a town mindset, yet compared to my situation with asserting Chris was being random and, being confronted with being called scum for not asking why, my explanation from my perspective, the motivation isn't the same as it is plausible from my perspective what I am saying.
JD left after like three posts or so, and Brina ends up stepping in where she gets into conversation with Silver over Mind. Without ISOing Brina, I believe a majority of Brina's con -- eh screw it. brb while I ISO Brina.
Oh boy. Definitely more content to Brina compared to JD. That's a huge improvement. Let's see. Ugh. Ok so I got to the post where she was talking with Chris and asked if he knew the motivation for her opening post. Given the entirety of the post, it comes off pretty much as I said the first time around. That Brina probably sees Mind's post as serious (much like how DoT probably thought the same thing). Brina's response to you (Silver) though I dislike for reasons I mentioned in your section. You make mention about Mind being joking/playful with those posts, yet Brina continues the point about it being genuine to her. I stick by the scummy feel it gives by throwing suspicion on Mind.
@Brina: Yeah, about that wrt to. Half mentioned it to me for two reasons. One being that if I was using wrt as something else than with respect/regards to that I should expand it. The other being that if I was doing it on purpose/didn't care, then at least I would hopefully see it and never be unable to see it and suffer with him over it. Ever since he brought it up, I've never been able to unsee it. So now I do it out of spite. You're just the latest victim.
Reading through some of the same responses I saw in Silver's section. I'm in complete disagreement with your assessment about reads (wrt to judging Mind's post about JD). Another thing to keep in mind here is that Mind was called out for meta clearing someone by Stones I think. The conversation centered on that post where he meta cleared JD as scum and another post where he states not meta clearing anyone seriously or something along those lines. Mind states that his playful post concering JD is just that. Playful. This is something you must have missed during your read of the thread or ignored to make your statements concerning Mind.
Hm, read through where Brina was explaining the sentences that Silver interpreted. I see it more as Brina making excuses to her sentences for how they read. Silver's interpretation and presentation of how your (Brina) statements came off seem accurate enough to me. That is, by figuring out Mind's motivation (as town or as scum), you would feel better about your own read on Kosa. What I'm going to focus on is why were you so hung up on focusing on Mind if you already had your mind set on viewing Kosa as scummy? Mind shouldn't have any impact on how you read Kosa, and if you assert that drawing a read on Mind (as town or scum) matters, then you're saying how you read Mind would influence how you read Kosa for the same reasons Silver brought up (that reading Mind as scum would imply you can't trust his motivation for pursuing Kosa thereby making you think Kosa is a mislynch despite viewing Kosa as scummy yourself). For having replaced into the game, it certainly is extremely early for you to be linking two players so much that your read of one affects your read of the other, wouldn't you say?
I'll make a note to look at your reads much later for comparison sake. I notice though that your read of Mind is a town lean.
Overall Feel: I certainly dislike the conversation around Mind and Brina's way of going about it that focuses heavily on thinking that Mind was being genuine with an obviously playful post wrt to JD. I do think it is scummy in that it certainly can cast suspicion on Mind in the way Silver described. The word play is strong regarding that (as far as how it can be interpreted). Despite the scum feel, I rank it comparatively lower than practically all of the other scum stuff I've seen during the course of the game. Certainly if Brina missed concrete posts indicating that Mind was being playful, then I can see myself just making an issue out of something small here. As far as the rest of Brina's content, it's short and to the point. Nothing greatly fleshed out/talked about like the conversation with Silver, but I don't see that as a bad thing since Brina has been actively posting content. I'd say a definite town lean on Brina is how she's coming off to me.
Comparing the two now, JD and Brina, I'd say I'd go with how I am feeling about Brina. JD's reaction to me was definitely like a rock and could be an easy way to just place a vote and not commit to much more. If JD/Brina truly is scum, Brina is doing an excellent job dispelling the negative view I had in place from JD.
Shock - He says he has a posting restriction. Not sure what it is given some of his posts seem flexible. Not a lot of content thus far browsing through his posts. Got up to where he gave a link to the mafia game Fable and I were in. And Half. Half was in that one too. So far, Shock just seems to be conversing. Alright, so his last two posts have content. I'll dig into them. Actually scratch that. He's giving a summary of the first page. I notice he's making small notes like "ugh this irks me" and the such. Let's look at the last post since this post doesn't really have a lot of explanation/fleshing out in it. And that last post of his is useless too.
Alright, judgement time.
Overall Feel: So, I've played with Shock in a few games over on NGA. I'm completely comfortable with saying idk wtf is going on with him here in this game. Like, he acts completely different as far as being indecisive and all over the place over in on NGA. Here, he's just like -- gliding? He's gliding through the game by making a lot of fluff posts. Anything from general conversation to small tidbits, but nothing that is really meaty and worth biting into. If I'm being generous, I'd lean null on him, but I'm not generous. I'm leaning scum on Shock here if only because this is a Shock I'm not used to seeing with all this fluff.
Friendly side note: Don't get bogged down responding to everything if you don't have the heart to sit down and do it. You'll just fall more and more behind. Course if you're doing it on purpose, then you're going to burn for it.
Couldn't find any posts from Wheat or Seppel so nada there. Off topic kinda: I heard about Seppel from a friend over on NGA. Nothing but good things. I think.
Yomo/Rhand - Ok, not going to lie. I'm just going to cruise through Rhand's posts, and state whether I get a scum or town feel. Because I deserve to be able to do this. And no more promises like this in the future. I swear. I said back in a flash, but really it's like a strapped a huge, heavy shell to my back, flopped onto the ground, and started crawling for the finish line while yelling, "Turtle! Turtle!" Never again.
Ok, Yomo came in with a hello, and left after asking a question. Totes scum right there. Let's look at Rhand now.
Accusation that doesn't mesh from JD. Ah, Rhand is the one that called Kosa out on the FoS post. Town points to Rand for that. Looks like I was wrong about Goose calling Rhand scummy as opposed to just a blank vote. I like Rhand's reaction to it. Poor Goose doesn't get anything from Rhand over that. Rhand makes note that he caught Kosa before Stones did. I know there is an argument that Kosa brings to bear about Stones being opportunistic or something along those lines. I'll get into that in a later post addressing the Kosa situation that I want to weigh in on because of Half.
Ah, another Goose post that Rhand responds to. You are right in that reasons should be given for linking teammates like Goose is doing. Heh, I seem to recall Stones posting questions similar to Rhand's question. Why this, why that, etc etc. Rather than address Rhand's question, Stones just says don't worry about it and that more will come later if Rhand gets to orange. Till then he wants to see what Rhand is about this game. The way Stones went about that is just screaming, "I've got my eye on you," rather than not mentioning him to begin with to see how Rhand would continue without influencing him (which Stones did). Certainly, in this exchange, Stones comes off odd for me here.
Back to talking about JD's vote on me. It's a matter of perspective there since a majority of people (practically everyone that commented on it) felt I was doing exactly what JD stated. Being self aware of asking why, unless Rhand's point is that I'm actually not caring about the perception of my posts because of how I'm posting. That's about the only thing I can think of for his stating that JD's reasoning doesn't mesh with what I've done. Interesting read on Stones given the pressure you mention. Your read on him makes sense given that.
Looks like the final post deals with the Kosa situation.
Overall Feel: I pretty am drawing a town lean vibe from him. He's definitely involved and active.
I think that just leaves Goose now. Yep.
Goose - Oh thank the Light, you have a short ISO. Ok, so the general stuff that was mentioned. Goose votes Rhand and gives a reason. He's lacking in content, but that doesn't make him any more scummy than others that are just as bad at content (or fluffing up their posts so they don't look bad for jumping on someone like them *cough*DoT*cough*). Personally, I have no problem with the vote. Goose also has a valid question when it comes to the whole scrutiny thing that DoT mentions to Goose when "coaching" him. If he bandwagons onto someone, he'll get scrutiny as well. Part of the game after all, especially with active players around that are critical. Rhand's question was never answered from what I can see concerning the whole scum team thing. I don't even think you (Goose) directed a response to him over it. You eventually go on to -- oh you actually do address your switch on Rhand. I noticed too that you state why you null lean to town lean on Kosa despite telling Stones you could see Kosa as possible scum buddies with Rhand. Your switch on Rhand is explained and you state null to town lean on him. I already addressed that part back up in DoT's part, but to summarize I see no problem with you trying to generate content on your own. You certainly got content out of someone that is for sure.
Overall Feel: Reasoning checks out with what I am used to. I don't perceive any malicious motives when it comes to his actions as he's not readily pushing something hard. He's even answered questions though it takes him time to do so. Overall, a null feel on him mostly. I could lean town, but it definitely wouldn't hurt to see more from him.
Ok, so that's all for my reads. The next best thing I could do in this post would be to organize the names from most townie to most scummy. I guess I can do that.
Cythare
Mind
Silver
DV
Rhand
Brina
Chris
----------
Goose
Half
Seppel
Wasabi
----------
Shock
Killjoy
Stones
Fable
Necar/Kosa
DoT
Ok, that fulfills my promise to get reads out. My final thing is to look over the Kosa situation later.
All things being equal, there is only one thing I'm going to focus on from your post. It's the fact that you state I'm on record as saying I'm going to go back and support Half's case even though I never said I would do that.
I would ask what the motivation could possibly be for you intentionally misrepresenting me, but I've already gotten scum vibes from you. It shouldn't take a stretch of the imagination to see w -- holy hell 7 hours to type that all out (off and on of course) -- to see why.
Other notable comments: Thanks for being a parrot and repeating something I already said. That being that he can be wrong (though it isn't loss on me that you didn't take the whole of the post into account).
Finally, you sure took my post to heart despite the fact I admitted to having not read the situation. At best, I'd call that an overreaction on your part.
Letting you know btw.
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Vote DoTArchon
What implications are you talking about?
Stop saying words and actually make an argument.
What do you think was the best point against DOTA?
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Also I'd like whoever noticed what I did prior if it is telling, never been in a predicament like this and would like past examples that I could compare to.
Of course, that's contingent on you recognizing that Mindreaver was obviously joking about his read on JD. If, as you say, you weren't sure, then I can see most of what you said being reasonable as town even if it isn't what I would have said.
Brings up meta self-consciousness, the most complicated thing to have been brought up in contrast to his other "reads."
Expresses suspicion towards KoD with the FoS from earlier and calls it forced, then calls #8/15 half-assed ways of expressing suspicion which I completely disagree with- "stares at DV" can be interpreted as a glare like "wth is your problem?" and the other isn't half-assed, he's driving home his theory about randomly clearing and being quite clear on what he believes. And then explains an alternative to those half-assed posts could be funny/having fun which I struggle to comprehend how 15 especially can be read like that unless you are explicitly just talking about him squinting which is narrow and bad to call half-assed. So essentially more fluff from you as I can see unless you had a vote on him but then you get back to what's holding you back....
#24 you can't read as scum OMGUSing early like that. He actually spent a good deal of time arguing with Chris, and perhaps weighing his own feeling on the situation. So to insinuate you think such as a OMGUS without reference to how it built up is complete negligence. Further confirmation with you saying don't know what's happening here so fluff again.
Calling Shock's #20 terrible and then if he's scum, Chris and KoD are townslapping is another great example of me completely disagreeing (all scenarios present and bringing in popcorn isn't alignment telling in any way, it's playful for sure and perhaps not useful for solving the game or giving a tell on his own alignment but to call it terrible is terrible) and just more fluff.
Questions Necarg on meta/read.
Then his reads. Don't like his interpretation of MR's #51 and how he sees it making no sense from a town POV. This was the most telling part of his post.
But again, the most telling part of this post is his calling MR's posts bad again(#89), which I don't agree with. Then throws in asking others to vote him and pulls a theory that he is almost certainly scum with Fable for the "open coaching" stuff that I didn't see. So this is in complete contrast to his meta read on Fable being like DRey. So strict contrast here.
Then asks more questions and questions MR's experience. Begin of backpedal?
Argues against Mindreaver about #51's last sentence not coming from town POV and calling the rest fluff/BusyStuff. The only thing to have him skeptical about this read/line of play is MR's inexperience? Looking like a way out to backpedal after a bad case.
Questions why he thinks JD is scum. Super buddying with my slot because he's pushing MR so hard.
Then brings up meta analysis being useless without both sides which is in contrast to his read on Fable from earlier.
Argues with KoD about Fable/Mindreaver calling MR out for potcallingkettleblack and saying Fable is completely genuine.
More Necarg meta stuff at end.
@KoD: I'm a dude and I'll be sure to post Camouflaged Tutus from now on.
Will get to the other stuff but one thing I need to bring up now-
@Silver: You should definitely know what I am talking about unless you aren't reading. You arguably had the biggest chance to not overlook it but if you continue to be scummy by being paranoid of me suspecting you and not reading, the more suspect you are.
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There's quite a bit of room for interpretation, you could be talking about some kind of tell you saw from someone else or about what I thought I saw from you. I don't see how asking you to be more explicit is scummy, especially when your sentence doesn't seem to be complete.
Yeah I have no what you meant here Brinatoo
And where is everyone is everyone ded?
I'll get around to my own goal by Monday evening. Still got lots of walking to do.
I hate falling behind in a game with big posts like this
I semi-skimmed. Still think Kosa is our best lynch.
Is there anything I should react to?
Brinatoo, probably. Most of it is between me and him if you just want to iso us, I guess. And KoD's wall. But that's most of the walls you skimmed or skipped, I think, so...
What [I]specifically[I] are you asking about that I didn't cover in my #339? I didn't have anything else to say about that post, so if you want a further response you'll have to tell me what you want me to respond to.
Brinatoo, instead of being so belligerent, can you just answer this? It's a little confusing, even after re-reading 338 (which is mostly about silver scum reading you because of your (mis)read on me). Specifically, just give me a noun instead of pronoun for the bolded part. What situation do you think you're in? Replacing in? Misinterpreting my posts? Being scum read by Silver?
You might think whatever point you're trying to make is obvious, but I'm telling you it isn't (at least to me).
While you're at it, please answer my question from 347
But I clicked back to #296 to see what you were talking about, and I guess you're referring to this? But I still don't really know what you're asking. So back to #282 I go... Ok. So you're asking... something about my No Lynch RVS vote. I guess I'll just try to cover everything I can think of.
I think this was the thing that resulted in your questions about No Lynch RVS, Meta, GJ, etc. in tandem with TS's line of play regarding it? (or else you missed it.) Here are my thoughts:
Basically, the players from the other forum (Shockwave, KoD, Fable) and maybe some of the returning players (Also Shockwave, Kosa, Col_Mongoose?) aren't used to people voting No Lynch during RVS. No Lynching is a pretty unusual vote from town - it's widely considered a terrible plan, and the only reason people here laugh it off is because GJ votes it in almost every game. You're used to it just being an RVS vote (maybe?), but that's only true within the current MTGS meta. That's why KoD took it seriously, and why I was surprised TappingStones took it seriously, but maybe he thought I was serious because I'm not GJ.
Based on his other stuff in thread I'm lightly town reading TappingStones, and honestly I don't know that him ignoring your questions is necessarily scummy... Otherwise Sir Chris and Kosa are scummy because they're both ignoring me.
If there's anything that didn't clear up I'd be more than happy to answer further questions (if I can).
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So Silver, my pal who doesn't like to be ignored, what exactly did you want me to say to you? Give me specifics to research and I will, but I dislike catching up and unfortunately I put myself behind the eight ball this week on that.
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Bad.
Can someone help me search out questions to me, and also make an ISO of Kosa's posts? Phone keeps crashing when I try to scroll through the text walls here and it makes it a pain to read.
May have to play fast and loose just to keep some sense of momentum going.
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I'll catch up either Tuesday night or Wednesday. My work has been crazy lately.
What's Brinato on about? I've reread through his posts and can't find what he's asking me.
@Brinato-What about the no lynch thing are you unclear about? To summarize (which I've already explained in thread twice) I don't think "no lynch" as a plan without extenuating circumstances is a good idea. I'm of the mindset that we want a crack at killing scum and getting a flip at the very least on day one. I think people who try and vote no lynch are partaking in anti-town behavior. Note, that doesn't mean I would scum read them because town engage in all kinds of actions that hinder the town. I also don't like that it's purposefully trying to create WIFOM and confuse people.
Now I'd like to lynch Kosa.
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If I had to be more specific, Brinatoo's #271 was what caught my attention so I'd like your impression of it. I'd prefer just your general thoughts on his play (his iso is only a page long) but if you don't want to go digging backwards I guess that's fine.
@Shockwave: Link to Kosa's iso. If you iso Kosa and give us a read on him that's all I was looking for and I don't think anyone else tried to engage you while you were gone.
@Cythare: Sorry for being gone because of the 4th maybe? And you're still scum reading Fable and Kosa? That's my best guess.
@Rhand: I forgot I had a question for you from earlier. What was scummy about JD's vote post (#33)?
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vote:cythare
Do something useful instead. Thoughts on kosa would be a start, since you've focused on Rhand, TS, Cythare. and KoD; and I don't see us lynching any of those,
Besides I'm fine focusing on Rhand because he feels more scummy to me than Kosa does. That whole situation looked like scum trying to catch a townie off guard hoping to get a scummy response out of kosa. Or rather TS started applying pressure I think Rhand was trying to take advantage of that and decided to pile on.