Look at Rhand to see specifically how organic his reads are.
Keep an eye on thug. Don't let him twist your words.
GJ needs to participate more. I think maybe you do too mato. Also probably citric
Tom is town I think. Vaimes is as well, although the starting on me gives me pause. Also my read tend to be the opposite of what they actually are sy if he's scum I won't actually be surprised.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Could you explain why you think mallorean is scum (or if you've already done so recently could you point me in the the right direction to those posts please and thanks)
And also for mind reader (as town) if you don't mind
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Hmm, actually these two questions are probably helpful:
Does anybody think that its more likely than not that Rhand/Mindreaver is Town/Town? I don't want to hear from you if you think its possible, I want to hear from you if you think its /more likely/ than that one of them is scum. Please point to an interaction you read that way if you do.
Does anybody, besides Mindreaver, think that I got that Killjoy is hesitating between "Do I have to buss my partner, or can I get a mislynch?" correct but that I got the partner wrong. As in, the team is Rhand/Killjoy. Please point out the parts of my casepost about Killjoy/Mindreaver that are incorrect, and correct them with things you think point to Rhand/Killjoy.
I still think
No, their fight did not feel like town/town at all. Like, it could be possible, but its far more likely that one is scum. Definitely not both though. If one flips scum, I'm pretty comfortable clearing the other.
I really don't think this is the case, enough that if Mindreaver flips town, I'm comfortable clearing Killjoy.
oops, I misspoke. I'm comfortable clearing Killjoy if Mindreaver flips town AND Rhand flips scum. If they both flip town, which I think is unlikely re the first question, Killjoy wouldn't be clear at all. That said, he's not definitely scum in that world either.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Killjoy, how likely do you think it is that Rhand/Mindreaver is town/town. I know you just said "not likely", but could you put a number on your feeling?
Id have to look at interactions again for a solid number. It's possible the anger is anger at Rhand for bussing unnecessarily. Lemme look at that interaction again.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Fine. Consider this a Rhand vote without actually voting What the heck does PoE mean?
I don't think this ever got answered for you? If so:
Process of Elimination. For example, slowly whittling down who you think is town until you're left with say 4 players left. Depending on the game-setup if you're right on all your town-reads lynching those 4 players wins you the game (it's more of a general process though, unless you're THAT sure of your town-reads)
Hmm, actually these two questions are probably helpful:
Does anybody think that its more likely than not that Rhand/Mindreaver is Town/Town? I don't want to hear from you if you think its possible, I want to hear from you if you think its /more likely/ than that one of them is scum. Please point to an interaction you read that way if you do.
Does anybody, besides Mindreaver, think that I got that Killjoy is hesitating between "Do I have to buss my partner, or can I get a mislynch?" correct but that I got the partner wrong. As in, the team is Rhand/Killjoy. Please point out the parts of my casepost about Killjoy/Mindreaver that are incorrect, and correct them with things you think point to Rhand/Killjoy.
I still think
No, their fight did not feel like town/town at all. Like, it could be possible, but its far more likely that one is scum. Definitely not both though. If one flips scum, I'm pretty comfortable clearing the other.
I really don't think this is the case, enough that if Mindreaver flips town, I'm comfortable clearing Killjoy.
Skimmed through the last few days again. Point in favor of Rhand/Mindreaver T/T is they both throw their hands up in frustration from their argument and the frustration feels pretty genuine on both sides, but that might be me just trying to fit posts to the premise. I feel like that really makes them unaligned at least.
oops, I misspoke. I'm comfortable clearing Killjoy if Mindreaver flips town AND Rhand flips scum. If they both flip town, which I think is unlikely re the first question, Killjoy wouldn't be clear at all. That said, he's not definitely scum in that world either.
Wouldn't that be adjustable to comfortable clearing Killjoy if Rhand flips scum? I feel pretttty confident that Mindreaver + Rhand are unaligned per the above genuine frustration, which means that scum!Rhand should lead to town!Mindreaver (and thus town!Killjoy).
What's your logic behind the premises you stated leading to Town!Killjoy?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Wouldn't that be adjustable to comfortable clearing Killjoy if Rhand flips scum? I feel pretttty confident that Mindreaver + Rhand are unaligned per the above genuine frustration, which means that scum!Rhand should lead to town!Mindreaver (and thus town!Killjoy).
What's your logic behind the premises you stated leading to Town!Killjoy?
Yeah, no, you're right. I was just stuck trying to think about consequences from mindreaver's flip.
He seems more engaged in his read of Mind than he was of me in AA. In fact, one of the reasons I was suspicious of Rhand was that he seemed really disengaged with his "scum" reads.
When you say null on Mindreaver/matowar/me, can you elaborate? Null as in haven't looked thoroughly at them (like with Matowar), or null as in in-between town+scum?
Null as in in between town and scum. Matowar though is more no read.
What do you think of the course of the game thus far?
MT is running the show, and there are a few scuffles, but it feels like the game is just game. Rhand/Mind is unaligned, but I would still think Rhand is town, even if Mind ends up flipping town.
Quote from Killjoy »
I don't usual vote until I'm confident someone is likely scum.
This is how long it took, and I don't vote just because people try to force me
It feels like you are trying to more or less relieve pressure on you, without looking like your bending to pressure.
The answer to my thought exercise that no one is gonna do.
Basically, your question to me is do I think Mindreaver is scum, if you are town. The answer to that exercise is probably not. If you are town, and I keep my other reads constant, I would be more intersted in the Rhand wagon than yours for finding scum, as his felt like it jumped up pretty quickly.
GJ needs to participate more. I think maybe you do too mato. Also probably citric
Tom is town I think. Vaimes is as well, although the starting on me gives me pause. Also my read tend to be the opposite of what they actually are sy if he's scum I won't actually be surprised
I am trying to make at least one post a day. That is about as much I can promise, unless I get responses right away and can go back and forth.
Quote from MT »
Does anybody, besides Mindreaver, think that I got that Killjoy is hesitating between "Do I have to buss my partner, or can I get a mislynch?" correct but that I got the partner wrong. As in, the team is Rhand/Killjoy. Please point out the parts of my casepost about Killjoy/Mindreaver that are incorrect, and correct them with things you think point to Rhand/Killjoy.
If anyone has a list of unaligned pairs being built up + posts justifying them I'd love to see a copy of it. Especially for pairings of players at Johnny and below on the list above
I'm at the point where its not terribly useful for me to share my opinions because I don't learn anything from half the game nodding their heads and some of the other half throwing unspecific shade. I would learn a bunch if people specifically argued against my points though, @Mantowar, @Mindreaver.
And its not useful to me to ask more questions of the lurkers, because they already have a pile of questions waiting to be answered anyways.
Which leaves trying to engage in dialogue with people on the town side of null that I haven't talked to enough yet. So:
@Citric @Gentleman Johnny @Tom
Sell me on why lynching Killjoy toDay leads to a more productive Day2 than lynching Mindreaver.
I still like Mallorean and KJ, I like Citric, I am leaning town on GJ, I am a bit wary of tom and matowar, and still think Vaimes and Mindreaver are scum.
Those are my reads after reading everything.
Have you read my catch up post tom? I doubt you did. Your answers are all in there, apart from KJ because the feeling I'm getting from him is more recent.
Scum should be in KJ, mindreaver, matowar with outside chances of Vaimes and you.
I think Citric and mallorean are town and am leaning town on GJ.
But I'm repeating myself here.
Why do you think I'm town?
I think I know your scum game pretty well, and this ain't it. At the start of the game you did feel lurkish like you do as scum, but the engagement in later posts made me change my mind there.
Still think Rhand is scum because of how easily he jumped on me after solidly town reading me.
This is why I'm hoping you're scum. If you go and lynch everyone who re-evaluates their reads based on new info, then you kill the game of mafia for town.
I've taken a fresh look at my wagon.
Mindreaver voted me out of omgus, which can be coming both from town and scum.
KillJoy voted me for 'fake tunneling' without ever explaining why my tunneling would be fake.
tom voted me for not providing a reason why my two scumreads were scum together. When I did that later on, he just ignored it and keeps calling me scum for the same reason.
matowar's vote is a weird one. He accuses me of not posting, while I've been way more active than him and was just away for less than a day.
Citric's vote was a reaction test, which is fine. He's reading me as town now.
Vaimes has been calling me town all game.
MT as well.
GJ has a lean town read on me and says he can read me well, which I think is true.
In order of dislike of the vote: KJ > tom > matowar > Mindreaver
KJ I think is likely town. The way he reacted to my claim seemed so genuine... I would be surprised if he faked that. He also always thinks I'm scum, which doesn't mean anything as he would fake that as scum too, but it can explain why he thinks my posts sound fake.
tom's vote is really bad, and he isn't bringing anything else to the game than 'let's lynch Rhand'. I look forward to his reread. @tom: please give an analysis of the game without rhyme when you do reread.
I have no clue what to think of matowar. His weird KJ flip-flopping bugs me. And he says he wants to lynch MT but votes me to keep the flow going, which is also weird.
Citric is probably town.
The current votecount: Rhand: tomsloger, Killjoy, Matowar77 Mindreaver: Rhand, mallorean_thug, Vaimes Killjoy: Gentleman Johnny, Mindreaver, CitricBase
With my current reads, I think the Mindreaver wagon is all town.
The KJ wagon has 2 possible scum in GJ and Mindreaver.
My wagon has 3 possible scum, or 2 if I'm right about KJ.
The world would make a lot of sense if Mindreaver is scum. The all town wagon is then a wagon on scum, and scum is probably split over town!KJ and town!me. Which means the second scum is likely tom or Matowar.
I think the best course of action toDay is to lynch Mindreaver. If he flips scum, tom or matowar is probably scum 2, with smaller chances of KJ and GJ.
So I think a lot of you are convinced of a Mind/KJ scumteam theory that has been thrown around here. At least that's what I am seeing as justification of votes. I'm still convinced of the Rhand/KJ team, and if KJ is the one you guys would rather see first, I'm definitely on board. I think if he flips scum, we take a serious look at Rhand tomorrow.
Unvote, Vote Killjoy
I think that gives us a better picture as far as interactions go anyway. If I die, I can't see how Rhand would be able to spin this for Day 2, unless you're going to continue the KJ push. If KJ isn't scum, my case on Rhand is much weaker, I'll admit it right now. If Rhand flips scum, I'd be convinced completely for KJ, but I think a lot of others might not be so sure. Rhand's had interactions with Vaimes as well.
This feels like he realises my wagon stalled out because 4 people think I'm town and he wants to try for another mislynch. The way he tacked on the Vaimes interaction part looks like pre-emptive switching of gears toMorrow when KJ has flipped town.
reread sountrack because who doesnt love country covers of nirvana with a brass section
and because its harder to rhyme while listening to hip hop, despite my affection
mindreaver's fifty eight is a post i enjoy
hes prodding at me and rhand, and scumreading killjoy
i feel like it should end, with voting kj
but its still awful close to the start of the day
if im worried about him, its for his very next post
when he rhymes along with, but thinks i am toast
"before your neck ends up in a noose" reads, at least to me
like he knows i am town, but foresees my lynch with glee
johnny also slips into rhyme, though just for two lines
i am a casual, he simply opines
im not sure what to think, of both of them doing it
my initial thought is their alignments are split
i can see scum rhyming with me, just to fit in
but i cant see johnny following his mafia twin
(to be fair i think town, might do it too
cuz rhyming is fun. you know that its true)
along with sixty six, i think thats a pair
who arent scum together. yall think thats fair?
mato wanting back in rvs is a bit of a tell
and the vote on kj is yucky as well
wanting to be random, and putting his vote
on the most likely wagon, is pretty cutthroat
seventy seven shows that its serious
and frankly, i think, its rather imperious
rhand's post one hundred, i feel could be bussing
scum!mind endgaming is not worth discussing
so getting credit early is a pretty good play
before he really gets caught in the fray
mindreaver pushing right back, and scumreading rhand
makes this less likely, but could be planned? @dota: did the mafia have pregame chat?
if they did not, this sort of falls flat
rhand turning "softness" into a buzzword
is not very town, and frankly absurd
town SHOULD be soft, especially early
its mafia that tries to avoid being durdly
johnny springing more traps in 185
but with his claimed mindset, that just doesnt jive
kj's reread is the best non-rhyming post in the game
im not even sure why he left my town hall of fame
hes in the inner circle, with vaimes and thug
im fully on board with that group *
*yes, i rhymed with a smiley.
call it "pulling a ludacris" who once rhymed with a gunshot sound effect
actually, im making that the soundtrack to this section of reread
rhand's 195 is such a nothing post.
like its a reread of everyone almost
but every person, theres just a list of thoughts
some are town tells, some scum pot shots
he leaves each read open, to go wherever he wants
not invested in any, complete nonchalance
rhand/mind on page 5 could be scum theater
not one time did either throw the heater
226, whats that about?
gj says he might tune me out
but thats in response to me continuing to rhyme
which he later said makes me town in his mind
I'm at the point where its not terribly useful for me to share my opinions because I don't learn anything from half the game nodding their heads and some of the other half throwing unspecific shade. I would learn a bunch if people specifically argued against my points though, @Mantowar, @Mindreaver.
And its not useful to me to ask more questions of the lurkers, because they already have a pile of questions waiting to be answered anyways.
Which leaves trying to engage in dialogue with people on the town side of null that I haven't talked to enough yet. So:
@Citric @Gentleman Johnny @Tom
Sell me on why lynching Killjoy toDay leads to a more productive Day2 than lynching Mindreaver.
I think KJ is the best path for today. His first few posts during the RVS and past stage are really feeling like more filler than anything else.
Quote from KJ »
Er. You did the math for *****s and giggles?
This was his response tom's post. Post 72 is one of the first posts that KJ starts to hunt:
Quote from KJ »
Hey it's Citric. What are your reads on people so far? Vaimes and I have talked a bunch.
This comes off as being super generic, super early. I think there is at leas 1-2 players at this point who haven't posted, and others who have barely made
a post past RVS.
On top of that, the primary reason I think KJ is better than Mindreaver today is KJ is more likely to be scum. I really want to see why you think Mindreaver is scum, but some of the questions he asks, both on his clarification of other peoples reads, and questions about other things (like my motivations) ring incredibly honest. Few examples:
Quote from Mindreaver »
Only because you mentioned your post count as well as asking me why I haven't decided on you one way or another (because you feel you're straightforward). I think the problem I'm having is that you're not really committing to anything. You defended against KJ, and that exchange was interesting, but you haven't actually pursued anybody yet. I'm just curious if you thought you were zeroing in, or had found somebody you thought was scum.
Even this one:
Quote from Mindreaver »
@Everyone else: Am I completely without merit here? I really cannot see how each time my words get twisted like this, and nobody has an issue? No questions for Rhand?
Like seriously? Why would newbie scum every draw attraction to himself like this if he was actually trying to tilt Rhand?
This is hilarious for reasons I will get into later.
Did you ever get into that? I don't remember you doing so, but I might have just lost track of that thread.
I did not. That was Mind saying that neither of me or Vaimes had conviction. But that is demonstrably not the case. (I had intended to demonstrate that, but then I forgot.)
Rhand: can you go to my Vaimes post and tell me why my points on him do not necessarily come from a town perspective.
Do you mean showing why Vaimes isn't necessarily town from your points or that you are not town for pointing those things out?
The former. When I saw your reread stop JUST before it, I was reminded of Winterfeels where you replaced iRebel, and during your reread you faked that yuo stopped reading just before you got to something yuo didn't want to respond to because it would have looked bad.
If you actually stop and look at my Vaimes post, you would possibly have trouble maintaining your fake-tunneling on Vaimes.
And I recall you saying at some point I never explained why your tunnelling was fake. It was fake because you never had any doubt. You never needed to clarify anything. You went from 0 to 600 in 1 post. There's no info gathering by you. You, who are supposed to be trying to figure out Mindreaver's alignment, did absolutely nothing to figure out WHY Mindreaver asked that 'soft' question. You just called it soft and apperently started scumreading him.
Still think Rhand is scum because of how easily he jumped on me after solidly town reading me.
This is why I'm hoping you're scum. If you go and lynch everyone who re-evaluates their reads based on new info, then you kill the game of mafia for town.
Yeah, except you didn't reevaluate anything before calling me scum. Your vote was OMGUS. That's all.
KJ:
RVS ok
I like his #35 to Vaimes
And his #45 to tom. This is town!KJ
Hm #67 shows he is aware of his own tunneling meta. Scum wouldn’t say that though, as scum who learned something new about their own meta would fake that meta instead of trying to change it.
unvote, vote KillJoy
Mallorean has a good case with the catch-up being iioa, his Vaimes white knighting while Vaimes has no votes on him seems out of place busywork (but they are unaligned), and his "I want to lynch Rhand toDay" feels fake.
@KJ: why should we not lynch matowar toDay?
You never say why those things in your reread post stopped making me solid town before you jumped all up on me for those things in the second post. Exactly 0 of your opinions were reevaluated before your scumread happened.
Also, Town Rhand would have, instead of voting me for a "fake-feeling ' I want to lynch Rhand' post" would have done something crazy, like ask me why I wanted that.
Basically, your question to me is do I think Mindreaver is scum, if you are town. The answer to that exercise is probably not. If you are town, and I keep my other reads constant, I would be more intersted in the Rhand wagon than yours for finding scum, as his felt like it jumped up pretty quickly.
You're not reading the game very closely.
I later amended the exercise to include all votes on me during the Day. You seem to have missed it.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
It's like you all don't read my posts.
Tom still ignores the content of my catch up post. And ignores that I gave a t/s in my next post.
And KJ seems to miss that Vaimes isn't in my suspects list anymore. And that I'm calling KJ town again too.
@KJ: I for a short while thought you were scum because your reasons for calling me scum seemed fabricated. Granted, there was probably some omgus involved. It's hard not thinking that people who go hardcore for your lynch are scum, because lynching me advances scum wincon.
Tom's catch up is awful. He accuses me of what he does himself: leaving almost all reads open. He wants to keep on having reasons to call me scum, but isn't thinking any of them through.
I seriously dislike how he ignores all requests to give us something without rhyming. GJ thought that was a towntell, but I think it might be him trying to be harder to read.
And then there is the softness thing.
@tom: why are you ignoring that MT also called mind soft?
My pool of suspects right now is narrowed down to mind, tom, matowar with outside chances of GJ and KJ.
If I end up lynched, please do take a close look at tom toMorrow. I would switch my vote to him, but I do not want KJ lynched, and I think that leaving the mind wagon accomplishes his or my lynch.
@matowar: can you do a reread and make a catch up post as well?
It's like you all don't read my posts.
Tom still ignores the content of my catch up post. And ignores that I gave a t/s in my next post.
And KJ seems to miss that Vaimes isn't in my suspects list anymore. And that I'm calling KJ town again too.
@KJ: I for a short while thought you were scum because your reasons for calling me scum seemed fabricated. Granted, there was probably some omgus involved. It's hard not thinking that people who go hardcore for your lynch are scum, because lynching me advances scum wincon.
Why does Vaimes not being scum to you anymore negate the fact that you were still scumreading him after reading it? It doesn't. Do the thing.
Why does the fact that you're not scumreading me anymore negate the fact that you jumped from strongly townreading me to strongly scumreading me while lying about reevaluating your reads? It doesn't. You're still scum.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I already did the thing before you asked me to do it again. Read back further.
And think what you want. I'm town. And I didn't lie about reevaluating my reads.
That by the way is the difference between scum!tom and town!kj: KJ is convinced that I lied about reevaluating. Tom only said that I can't keep my reads straight. That is a scum attack: he didn't even consider that I was reevaluating the gamestate.
I already did the thing before you asked me to do it again. Read back further.
And think what you want. I'm town. And I didn't lie about reevaluating my reads.
In your catchup, right? You didn't do it then. You passed over it while still scumreading Vaimes. Like my Vaimes post says very specifically that some things are not from a scum perspective. You giving a reason they might be from a scum perspective is not countering them.
That by the way is the difference between scum!tom and town!kj: KJ is convinced that I lied about reevaluating. Tom only said that I can't keep my reads straight. That is a scum attack: he didn't even consider that I was reevaluating the gamestate.
I mean, I'm not even sure that's really a tell. He made an observation.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Tom - That math doesn't help us catch scum. In fact it's only useful if we want to know the odds of randomly lynching. Which we won't be doing... So what was the thought process there?
@Killjoy - "Saying a vote is mostly not serious reads as saying "you can't really use this against me in the future because it wasn't serious", hence 'cop out'." Are you looking for things to use against people later on? That phrasing bothers me.
Mindreaver asked my opinion on Vaimes without weighing in himself. That is telling if one of them flips scum, but nothing to base a read on.
The softness in their posts can be a tell though. Which is why I couldn't give any reasoning at first. Did you see how his tone changed when I did call him soft?
As I explained earlier, Rhand doesn't make this kind of point as Town. He would not be scumreading Mindreaver without questioning him first. Town Rhand has doubts, and therefore questions his scumread to expand and explain.
Fun Note:
@KJ: I tunnel a lot as town. Probably every town game will show you tunneling. I even fake it as scum because I know I do it as town.
I'm amazed you don't see me as a tunneling person.
Rhand admits it's a scumtell of his.
Quote from Rhand »
KJ:
RVS ok
I like his #35 to Vaimes
And his #45 to tom. This is town!KJ
Hm #67 shows he is aware of his own tunneling meta. Scum wouldn’t say that though, as scum who learned something new about their own meta would fake that meta instead of trying to change it.
I still like Mallorean and KJ, I like Citric, I am leaning town on GJ, I am a bit wary of tom and matowar, and still think Vaimes and Mindreaver are scum.
Those are my reads after reading everything.
Quote from Rhand »
unvote, vote KillJoy
Mallorean has a good case with the catch-up being iioa, his Vaimes white knighting while Vaimes has no votes on him seems out of place busywork (but they are unaligned), and his "I want to lynch Rhand toDay" feels fake.
Quote from Rhand »
@KJ: I for a short while thought you were scum because your reasons for calling me scum seemed fabricated. Granted, there was probably some omgus involved. It's hard not thinking that people who go hardcore for your lynch are scum, because lynching me advances scum wincon.
This is why I'm hoping you're scum. If you go and lynch everyone who re-evaluates their reads based on new info, then you kill the game of mafia for town.
In his catch up post, he is solidly townreading me for some reasons, one of which actually given (but makes logical sense as a town action. I can see someone townreading someone for that.) He stays confident through post 204. Then, the second I want to lynch him I'm scum. He claims my read on him was fabricated (again without investigating if that's even true), now all of a sudden the Vaimes post I asked him to read several times is 'out of place busywork' even though he made no mention of that read while I pressed him for a read on that specific post, and agrees with mall that my reread was more info than analysis. He also mentions that me and Vaimes are unaligned like it's somehow relevent to my alignment, and as a minor language tell he calls mallo's iioa point a case which potentially makes it looks more substancial that it would otherwise be.
#58 has a bad push on tom (the math was already established as RVS). The @KJ might be a chainsaw. The question to me about my Vaimes vote is too soft. The way it is phrased triggers all my alarms.
Quote from Behavioral Analysis, Chapter 1 – Causal Analysis In the Noob Thread »
Scum rhetoric of "tripping alarms", playing the "newb card", the type of language they often use to push home a lynch on a vulnerable-seeming player. And the final sentence: he's not thinking through his analysis the way he would in MoC, he's not probing and asking questions, he's going to "figure out" what his gut is tipping him off to. He's going to invent a rationale, figure out the reasons for his suspicions after the fact.
Very minor point here, but the beginner articles have 'alarms' as scum rhetoric, and he used it. Not telling alone but with other reasons it helps tip the scales.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@KJ: The only real pro-town point for Vaimes you're making that I haven't touched on before in your Vaimes case is his self-meta. Which i don't see as a tell of anything at all. I still think he's most likely scum.
That other post where he doesn't want to clutter the thread is why I prefer lynching Mindreaver over him. It's the one point that I saw in my reread that made me less sure.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Look, my read on him changed. The reason I was scumreading him is in my catchup post. You're asking me now to look for scum motivation in specific posts of someone that I think is town, which is ridiculous.
While I initially claimed Vaimes was lean scum for not having a sense of humor with the whole "DotA is scum with Rhand" joke, on this reread I noticed this:
which itself shows lack of seriousness in general, and more importantly a lack of self-awareness.
Another thing was looking for on this reread is weak justification for pushing against me, or justification that can be easily explained away (a point I was making when I jumped on him for only commiting 10% to his vote). Here he explains why he voted me:
I know you haven't voted me yet. But you also said I could be scum, so I invited you to vote for me.
It was still 90% an RVS-ish vote. The 10% was because I find joking about the mod being scum to be a suuuper light scumtell, since it completely avoids potentially talking about other players. I made a vote that was both silly and also had the potential to be serious, depending on what happened next. I thought your reaction to the first (and only) vote on you was weird, and it looked like you were asking tom to elaborate on his math that doesn't actually accomplish anything.
20% is probably better than your 0% vote on Rhand! Also I don't know why we're acting like these numbers are concrete.
His reason was that joking the mod beign scum is a light scumtell because it potentially avoids talking about other people, and that I reacted weirdly to the first/only vote on me, and asking tom about the math doesn't actually do anything.The first thing is a variation of voting the mod, which is a light scumtell. The second is a variation of the 'overreacting to the first vote on you' scumtell. The third is the 'busywork' scumtell.
His reasoning here is not terrible. It doesn't leave him a lot of wiggleroom. Here, he's committing to his read.
In response to my point that his 10% vote being a cop out and weak (as I was looking for above):
There is no cop out, because I'm not going to argue against anyone using the vote to analyze in the future. My mindset when placing that vote was "eh, this is a teeny thing I don't like, but it's probably not worth completely breaking out of RVS over."
But okay. I won't try to have it both ways. For the purposes of preventing us from arguing over this and cluttering the thread, it can be treated as a serious vote.
This is not a scum response, IMO. Scum would not make this argument because of how bad it is in terms of proving himself. "I wouldn't do that" only ever prompts the response of "We can't know that." which a scum would know. It doesn't make him seem less scummy, or more townie. It accomplishes little from a scum perspective.
As scum, I try harder to give people what they want when I'm pressured. My jokes are more forced or self-conscious sounding. I have a much harder time crafting cases against people because I know they're town. I reflexively bus under pressure because I know my buddies are scum and I want to look good for pushing them.
Those are probabaly the most obvious tells.
I am putting a fair bit of weight on this. I've found that scum, when asked what their scumtells are, are really bad at manufacturing tells that do not currently apply to them.
So. I'm now pretty sure Vaimes is town. This makes me wonder about Rhand.
@Citric: Because I haven't necessarily found scum yet. Rhand might be but he hasn't posted much. I also had a thought about Mindreaver being scum but nothing concrete.
The first part is you convincing yourself that the no humour tell you saw from Vaimes wasn't a tell. You make it into a towntell here, but this all really is a tell of nothing at all.
The cluttering thing is indeed very pro-town, as I've stated multiple times.
Self-meta isn't a tell of anything either. A good scum knows perfectly well how he's behaving and how he shouldn't behave.
You've convinced yourself of Vaimes townieness in that post because you addressed all your problems with Vaimes, but my issues with him weren't addressed. It took me longer to figure out his mindset.
The whole thing with this post is that you disprove scumtells that I never even saw as scumtells. Now you want me to show you scum motivation there who oe thise posts weren't the reason I was scumreading Vaimes.
Keep an eye on thug. Don't let him twist your words.
GJ needs to participate more. I think maybe you do too mato. Also probably citric
Tom is town I think. Vaimes is as well, although the starting on me gives me pause. Also my read tend to be the opposite of what they actually are sy if he's scum I won't actually be surprised.
What thought exercise, I don't understand what that is referring to
Also asking for participation is boot the same as calling you scum.
I don't think I asked you for it.
I think scum is likely in the group of (mato, GJ, Rhand, mall)
And also for mind reader (as town) if you don't mind
I guess mind could be well. His overly defensive reaction to Rhand vote. It's mostly my scum reads push on him that have him as town
Rhand: tomsloger, Killjoy
Mindreaver: Rhand, mallorean_thug, Vaimes
Killjoy: Gentleman Johnny, Mindreaver, CitricBase
Not Voting:
Matowar77
With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.
Deadline is June 7, 2016
Does anybody think that its more likely than not that Rhand/Mindreaver is Town/Town? I don't want to hear from you if you think its possible, I want to hear from you if you think its /more likely/ than that one of them is scum. Please point to an interaction you read that way if you do.
Does anybody, besides Mindreaver, think that I got that Killjoy is hesitating between "Do I have to buss my partner, or can I get a mislynch?" correct but that I got the partner wrong. As in, the team is Rhand/Killjoy. Please point out the parts of my casepost about Killjoy/Mindreaver that are incorrect, and correct them with things you think point to Rhand/Killjoy.
I still think
No, their fight did not feel like town/town at all. Like, it could be possible, but its far more likely that one is scum. Definitely not both though. If one flips scum, I'm pretty comfortable clearing the other.
I really don't think this is the case, enough that if Mindreaver flips town, I'm comfortable clearing Killjoy.
Also if they both flip town the have will be over. We only have two mislynches.
I accidentally hit 'like' on this post, cleared it but for clarity
I don't think this ever got answered for you? If so:
Process of Elimination. For example, slowly whittling down who you think is town until you're left with say 4 players left. Depending on the game-setup if you're right on all your town-reads lynching those 4 players wins you the game (it's more of a general process though, unless you're THAT sure of your town-reads)
Skimmed through the last few days again. Point in favor of Rhand/Mindreaver T/T is they both throw their hands up in frustration from their argument and the frustration feels pretty genuine on both sides, but that might be me just trying to fit posts to the premise. I feel like that really makes them unaligned at least.
Wouldn't that be adjustable to comfortable clearing Killjoy if Rhand flips scum? I feel pretttty confident that Mindreaver + Rhand are unaligned per the above genuine frustration, which means that scum!Rhand should lead to town!Mindreaver (and thus town!Killjoy).
What's your logic behind the premises you stated leading to Town!Killjoy?
Yeah, no, you're right. I was just stuck trying to think about consequences from mindreaver's flip.
Killjoy (3): Gentleman Johnny, Mindreaver, CitricBase
Rhand (3): tomsloger, Killjoy, Matowar77
Abstaining (0):
---
lol @ that perfect split. Who wants to play "which of these wagons is all town?"
@Matowar
Why are you "currently most interested in" the NK? What specifically about Mindreaver makes you more certain that he's just new and not scum?
He seems more engaged in his read of Mind than he was of me in AA. In fact, one of the reasons I was suspicious of Rhand was that he seemed really disengaged with his "scum" reads.
Null as in in between town and scum. Matowar though is more no read.
MT is running the show, and there are a few scuffles, but it feels like the game is just game. Rhand/Mind is unaligned, but I would still think Rhand is town, even if Mind ends up flipping town.
It feels like you are trying to more or less relieve pressure on you, without looking like your bending to pressure.
Basically, your question to me is do I think Mindreaver is scum, if you are town. The answer to that exercise is probably not. If you are town, and I keep my other reads constant, I would be more intersted in the Rhand wagon than yours for finding scum, as his felt like it jumped up pretty quickly.
I am trying to make at least one post a day. That is about as much I can promise, unless I get responses right away and can go back and forth.
I don't think Rhand is scum.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Hihi, I was just settling in to look back at some things. Was thinking about this topic:
Do you have a better immediate topic to discuss?
Did you ever get into that? I don't remember you doing so, but I might have just lost track of that thread.
Agree/disagree?
I'm at the point where its not terribly useful for me to share my opinions because I don't learn anything from half the game nodding their heads and some of the other half throwing unspecific shade. I would learn a bunch if people specifically argued against my points though, @Mantowar, @Mindreaver.
And its not useful to me to ask more questions of the lurkers, because they already have a pile of questions waiting to be answered anyways.
Which leaves trying to engage in dialogue with people on the town side of null that I haven't talked to enough yet. So:
@Citric @Gentleman Johnny @Tom
Sell me on why lynching Killjoy toDay leads to a more productive Day2 than lynching Mindreaver.
Rhand: tomsloger, Killjoy, Matowar77
Mindreaver: Rhand, mallorean_thug, Vaimes
Killjoy: Gentleman Johnny, Mindreaver, CitricBase
Not Voting:
With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.
Deadline is June 7, 2016
and hes still the one that should probably die
kj i am starting to genuinely trust
and i still dont get the mindreaver bloodlust
im off v/la, but exceptionally tired
ill admit that a reread is very required
Do you mean showing why Vaimes isn't necessarily town from your points or that you are not town for pointing those things out?
I think I know your scum game pretty well, and this ain't it. At the start of the game you did feel lurkish like you do as scum, but the engagement in later posts made me change my mind there.
This is why I'm hoping you're scum. If you go and lynch everyone who re-evaluates their reads based on new info, then you kill the game of mafia for town.
Mindreaver voted me out of omgus, which can be coming both from town and scum.
KillJoy voted me for 'fake tunneling' without ever explaining why my tunneling would be fake.
tom voted me for not providing a reason why my two scumreads were scum together. When I did that later on, he just ignored it and keeps calling me scum for the same reason.
matowar's vote is a weird one. He accuses me of not posting, while I've been way more active than him and was just away for less than a day.
Citric's vote was a reaction test, which is fine. He's reading me as town now.
Vaimes has been calling me town all game.
MT as well.
GJ has a lean town read on me and says he can read me well, which I think is true.
In order of dislike of the vote: KJ > tom > matowar > Mindreaver
KJ I think is likely town. The way he reacted to my claim seemed so genuine... I would be surprised if he faked that. He also always thinks I'm scum, which doesn't mean anything as he would fake that as scum too, but it can explain why he thinks my posts sound fake.
tom's vote is really bad, and he isn't bringing anything else to the game than 'let's lynch Rhand'. I look forward to his reread. @tom: please give an analysis of the game without rhyme when you do reread.
I have no clue what to think of matowar. His weird KJ flip-flopping bugs me. And he says he wants to lynch MT but votes me to keep the flow going, which is also weird.
Citric is probably town.
The current votecount:
Rhand: tomsloger, Killjoy, Matowar77
Mindreaver: Rhand, mallorean_thug, Vaimes
Killjoy: Gentleman Johnny, Mindreaver, CitricBase
With my current reads, I think the Mindreaver wagon is all town.
The KJ wagon has 2 possible scum in GJ and Mindreaver.
My wagon has 3 possible scum, or 2 if I'm right about KJ.
The world would make a lot of sense if Mindreaver is scum. The all town wagon is then a wagon on scum, and scum is probably split over town!KJ and town!me. Which means the second scum is likely tom or Matowar.
I think the best course of action toDay is to lynch Mindreaver. If he flips scum, tom or matowar is probably scum 2, with smaller chances of KJ and GJ.
This feels like he realises my wagon stalled out because 4 people think I'm town and he wants to try for another mislynch. The way he tacked on the Vaimes interaction part looks like pre-emptive switching of gears toMorrow when KJ has flipped town.
but here i go.
and because its harder to rhyme while listening to hip hop, despite my affection
mindreaver's fifty eight is a post i enjoy
hes prodding at me and rhand, and scumreading killjoy
i feel like it should end, with voting kj
but its still awful close to the start of the day
if im worried about him, its for his very next post
when he rhymes along with, but thinks i am toast
"before your neck ends up in a noose" reads, at least to me
like he knows i am town, but foresees my lynch with glee
johnny also slips into rhyme, though just for two lines
i am a casual, he simply opines
im not sure what to think, of both of them doing it
my initial thought is their alignments are split
i can see scum rhyming with me, just to fit in
but i cant see johnny following his mafia twin
(to be fair i think town, might do it too
cuz rhyming is fun. you know that its true)
along with sixty six, i think thats a pair
who arent scum together. yall think thats fair?
mato wanting back in rvs is a bit of a tell
and the vote on kj is yucky as well
wanting to be random, and putting his vote
on the most likely wagon, is pretty cutthroat
seventy seven shows that its serious
and frankly, i think, its rather imperious
rhand's post one hundred, i feel could be bussing
scum!mind endgaming is not worth discussing
so getting credit early is a pretty good play
before he really gets caught in the fray
mindreaver pushing right back, and scumreading rhand
makes this less likely, but could be planned?
@dota: did the mafia have pregame chat?
if they did not, this sort of falls flat
rhand turning "softness" into a buzzword
is not very town, and frankly absurd
town SHOULD be soft, especially early
its mafia that tries to avoid being durdly @thug did you address this, in your post connecting them?
if thats the scumteam, this post is a gem
johnny's 132 is all throwing shade
with townclears he seems quite dismayed
this could be, of course, his meta aversion
but, if so, why cast aspersion
179 and im back to town killjoy
his own case on vaimes he decides to destroy
im stopping here now, because i must eat
but then ill keep looking for something concrete
johnny springing more traps in 185
but with his claimed mindset, that just doesnt jive
kj's reread is the best non-rhyming post in the game
im not even sure why he left my town hall of fame
hes in the inner circle, with vaimes and thug
im fully on board with that group *
*yes, i rhymed with a smiley.
call it "pulling a ludacris" who once rhymed with a gunshot sound effect
actually, im making that the soundtrack to this section of reread
rhand's 195 is such a nothing post.
like its a reread of everyone almost
but every person, theres just a list of thoughts
some are town tells, some scum pot shots
he leaves each read open, to go wherever he wants
not invested in any, complete nonchalance
rhand/mind on page 5 could be scum theater
not one time did either throw the heater
226, whats that about?
gj says he might tune me out
but thats in response to me continuing to rhyme
which he later said makes me town in his mind again
im to mall's 280, just two days ago
it prolly deserves a response of its own
Mild V/LA for 2-3 days. Feeling sick and not really in the mood to use my brain, but the medicine should make everything better soon.
I think KJ is the best path for today. His first few posts during the RVS and past stage are really feeling like more filler than anything else.
This was his response tom's post. Post 72 is one of the first posts that KJ starts to hunt:
This comes off as being super generic, super early. I think there is at leas 1-2 players at this point who haven't posted, and others who have barely made
a post past RVS.
On top of that, the primary reason I think KJ is better than Mindreaver today is KJ is more likely to be scum. I really want to see why you think Mindreaver is scum, but some of the questions he asks, both on his clarification of other peoples reads, and questions about other things (like my motivations) ring incredibly honest. Few examples:
Even this one:
Like seriously? Why would newbie scum every draw attraction to himself like this if he was actually trying to tilt Rhand?
So, in other words. Vote Killjoy.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I did not. That was Mind saying that neither of me or Vaimes had conviction. But that is demonstrably not the case. (I had intended to demonstrate that, but then I forgot.)
The former. When I saw your reread stop JUST before it, I was reminded of Winterfeels where you replaced iRebel, and during your reread you faked that yuo stopped reading just before you got to something yuo didn't want to respond to because it would have looked bad.
If you actually stop and look at my Vaimes post, you would possibly have trouble maintaining your fake-tunneling on Vaimes.
And I recall you saying at some point I never explained why your tunnelling was fake. It was fake because you never had any doubt. You never needed to clarify anything. You went from 0 to 600 in 1 post. There's no info gathering by you. You, who are supposed to be trying to figure out Mindreaver's alignment, did absolutely nothing to figure out WHY Mindreaver asked that 'soft' question. You just called it soft and apperently started scumreading him.
Yeah, except you didn't reevaluate anything before calling me scum. Your vote was OMGUS. That's all.
Here, let me show you.
You never say why those things in your reread post stopped making me solid town before you jumped all up on me for those things in the second post. Exactly 0 of your opinions were reevaluated before your scumread happened.
Also, Town Rhand would have, instead of voting me for a "fake-feeling ' I want to lynch Rhand' post" would have done something crazy, like ask me why I wanted that.
I know I've said this in at least one other games. I thought it was STMUIII but I looked at my posts but didn't find it.
You're not reading the game very closely.
I later amended the exercise to include all votes on me during the Day. You seem to have missed it.
Tom still ignores the content of my catch up post. And ignores that I gave a t/s in my next post.
And KJ seems to miss that Vaimes isn't in my suspects list anymore. And that I'm calling KJ town again too.
@KJ: I for a short while thought you were scum because your reasons for calling me scum seemed fabricated. Granted, there was probably some omgus involved. It's hard not thinking that people who go hardcore for your lynch are scum, because lynching me advances scum wincon.
Tom's catch up is awful. He accuses me of what he does himself: leaving almost all reads open. He wants to keep on having reasons to call me scum, but isn't thinking any of them through.
I seriously dislike how he ignores all requests to give us something without rhyming. GJ thought that was a towntell, but I think it might be him trying to be harder to read.
And then there is the softness thing.
@tom: why are you ignoring that MT also called mind soft?
My pool of suspects right now is narrowed down to mind, tom, matowar with outside chances of GJ and KJ.
If I end up lynched, please do take a close look at tom toMorrow. I would switch my vote to him, but I do not want KJ lynched, and I think that leaving the mind wagon accomplishes his or my lynch.
@matowar: can you do a reread and make a catch up post as well?
Votecount:
Rhand: tomsloger, Killjoy, Matowar77
Mindreaver: Rhand, mallorean_thug, Vaimes
Killjoy: Gentleman Johnny, Mindreaver, CitricBase
Not Voting:
With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.
Deadline is June 7, 2016
Prods will be going out in 12-24 hours.
Why does the fact that you're not scumreading me anymore negate the fact that you jumped from strongly townreading me to strongly scumreading me while lying about reevaluating your reads? It doesn't. You're still scum.
And think what you want. I'm town. And I didn't lie about reevaluating my reads.
I mean, I'm not even sure that's really a tell. He made an observation.
Fun Note: Rhand admits it's a scumtell of his.
In his catch up post, he is solidly townreading me for some reasons, one of which actually given (but makes logical sense as a town action. I can see someone townreading someone for that.) He stays confident through post 204. Then, the second I want to lynch him I'm scum. He claims my read on him was fabricated (again without investigating if that's even true), now all of a sudden the Vaimes post I asked him to read several times is 'out of place busywork' even though he made no mention of that read while I pressed him for a read on that specific post, and agrees with mall that my reread was more info than analysis. He also mentions that me and Vaimes are unaligned like it's somehow relevent to my alignment, and as a minor language tell he calls mallo's iioa point a case which potentially makes it looks more substancial that it would otherwise be.
Very minor point here, but the beginner articles have 'alarms' as scum rhetoric, and he used it. Not telling alone but with other reasons it helps tip the scales.
I am of the opinion that if you were town then you would have at least taken that into consideration.
Obviously you read it, found my points to be nonsufficient, then continued scumreading Vaimes.
My question is: Show me how the scum motives for those posts outweighs the town. That's what I'm asking for.
The first part is you convincing yourself that the no humour tell you saw from Vaimes wasn't a tell. You make it into a towntell here, but this all really is a tell of nothing at all.
The cluttering thing is indeed very pro-town, as I've stated multiple times.
Self-meta isn't a tell of anything either. A good scum knows perfectly well how he's behaving and how he shouldn't behave.
You've convinced yourself of Vaimes townieness in that post because you addressed all your problems with Vaimes, but my issues with him weren't addressed. It took me longer to figure out his mindset.
The whole thing with this post is that you disprove scumtells that I never even saw as scumtells. Now you want me to show you scum motivation there who oe thise posts weren't the reason I was scumreading Vaimes.