I still have no particularly strong scumreads, but if there are multiple scum within [businessman, ghosting, mindreaver, hardwood, hunger] I feel quite happy with where I am at right now. If anyone has a townread on any of those, please share.
My next chunk of time will be spent figuring them out. Mild leans too if I have time.
What happened to your "multiple" scum theory? Why are you voting a neutral?
Those are the people I feel pretty good about right now.
The rest is pretty ugly. We have a ton of work to do. So I'm hoping that Mindreaver shoots a player not on my list who has some interactions we can check out. The dream is Bloscovi but I guess I'll have to work hard to nail the Kingpin. The crappy part about Matowar is that if you look back at our last game with him (Ace Attorney) we ran him up right away and he was town. Doing that twice in a row is pretty rough. How scummy is he? His disappearing act is the main thing with me. Ghosting is attacking everyone that questioned anything he does. I have defended him for a long time and am still doing that, but he starts throwing shade at me when I question some really shoddy behavior. Why am I not allowed to find problems with you Ghosting?
If you are town there are going to be some things you are going to need to look back on after this game but I'll leave that for the postgame wrap-up.
IABM is a no go as lynch or vig shot today (I know, Mindreaver can do what he likes, I'm just throwing down my feeling on it). He claimed good guy before it was cool to do so. The scum would be chomping at the bit if he gets killed. We likely lose a towny and gain zero information.
Who are the two players who are A)SOLID scum targets and B)Give us interaction to analyze. Now A certainly trumps B but we aren't just going to lynch a lurker because some people don't want to read the game.
@TS: On my phone and quoting is terrible rn, can you please respond to the questions I asked?
You're allowed to think I'm scum. My query, which you didn't respond to, is that you went from a huge strong town read on me, defending me, pointing it out, to an instant scum read very quickly. Only a few posts ago you were saying I was super town. There's other questions as well, so please answer them, but one was about that switch. Another was something like, if you base behaviour on reads, not role, then why is my role being judged, unless that statement isn't true.
Also, you praised me for how I've been what you now call "going after everyone". Is it praise worthy or scum worthy? You can't say both.
And finally, I'm not town, why do you keep saying "if you're town"?
Like if I said "I love bananas, they're a great fruit, everyone should think so. Look how good they taste" and then a minute later said "Bananas suck, terrible fruit, they taste so bad!", you'd be a little confused, right? That's the comparison I'm trying to make clear.
I'm also allowed to question inconsistent behaviour, it's mafia lol. I'm not even voting you.
Also, Ibam is clearly not the lynch or shot today.
Has Mato been prodded?
@Everyone: Did anyone at all see my latest response to Brinatoo? If you don't think he's scum, you must at least be baffled by his responses. Like they don't make sense, or say that my questions don't make sense when they clearly do, multiple times in a row, etc. For town out there, if you like me or not, please read through it and make up your own mind. I don't care if people don't want to look at my reads because they think I'm scum, my role is genuinely what it is and I'm just trying to power out as much scum hunting as can before I die so you guys have more interactions and info to go off of. Brinatoo is an example of that and one I think should be really eye opening.
Like if I said "I love bananas, they're a great fruit, everyone should think so. Look how good they taste" and then a minute later said "Bananas suck, terrible fruit, they taste so bad!", you'd be a little confused, right? That's the comparison I'm trying to make clear.
I'm also allowed to question inconsistent behaviour, it's mafia lol. I'm not even voting you.
What is so hard to understand about this? Some of your recent posts are bad. I've mentioned them and gave detailed reasoning about them. The claim seems fake to me. Being a neutral is whatever. You said you would surely be the nightkill in NO SANE WORLD are you the nightkill that is an absurd statement to make.
Now if you look I am not voting you. I'm beginning to wonder why I'm not though, as instead of trying to scumhunt you are just trying strawman my statements against you and vote opportunistically.
And you say "i'm not even voting you." Be my guest!
Ghosting you defended pretty well against the stuff Proph and Bloscovi threw down on you. More recent criticism has some justification...and AGAIN I've already talked about this.
If you want everyone to vote you then by all means keep up these recent attempts to misrep. If you don't know why I have doubt, I'M NOT EVEN F ing VOTING YOU OR SUGGESTING PEOPLE TO VOTE YOU. I found somethings that I don't like and expressed as such. The claim is bad and doesn't sound real, the post leading up to it also sounds made up. ISO me for the rest because I'm not going to repeat myself ad nauseum just to have you twist my meanings.
What is so hard to understand about this? Some of your recent posts are bad. I've mentioned them and gave detailed reasoning about them. The claim seems fake to me. Being a neutral is whatever. You said you would surely be the nightkill in NO SANE WORLD are you the nightkill that is an absurd statement to make.
[quote]Now if you look I am not voting you. I'm beginning to wonder why I'm not though, as instead of trying to scumhunt you are just trying strawman my statements against you and vote opportunistically.
What? I have been actively scumhunting, and that's pretty undeniable. My last post I questioned Seppel, made a huge post about Brinatoo, this post began as me pursuing a suspicion based on the read change and how you went about it, etc. I've been scumhunting a lotttttt (I feel like most people would agree with this).
And you say "i'm not even voting you." Be my guest!
I said I'm not voting you because you're claiming I'm opportunistically jumping on you (and other wagons), and that I'm attacking anyone with a dissenting view. I have no desire to vote you right now considering you were one of my strongest town reads and I am reading other people as much, much scummier than you. I'm just trying to clarify some points that raised an eyebrow.
Ghosting you defended pretty well against the stuff Proph and Bloscovi threw down on you. More recent criticism has some justification...and AGAIN I've already talked about this.
So you think Brinatoo's latest post is justified? Do you think it even makes sense? My response shows that. I'm interested in how you think he handled himself. The only recent posts that have any validity are the ones that are wondering if my claim is real (they are valid because that's a perfectly logical conclusion for town to postulate). Otherwise I've broken down how it's either a misrep, doesn't make sense, or not about anything recent. If town is reading and genuinely wants to see this, it can be seen.
If you want everyone to vote you then by all means keep up these recent attempts to misrep. If you don't know why I have doubt, I'M NOT EVEN F ing VOTING YOU OR SUGGESTING PEOPLE TO VOTE YOU. I found somethings that I don't like and expressed as such. The claim is bad and doesn't sound real, the post leading up to it also sounds made up. ISO me for the rest because I'm not going to repeat myself ad nauseum just to have you twist my meanings.
I'm not misrepping you at all, while you have factually misrepped me (saying I haven't been scumhunting comes to mind).
So I'm not "twisting the meanings" of your statements, I'll just directly quote what you said that proves you are in fact suggesting people kill me:
Not a whole lot. I'm not as big on claims as I am on behavior.
You're not big on claims, and say my claim doesn't affect your views as much as behaviour, but then a couple of posts later:
The claim is bad
This is surrounded by a bunch of speculation as to why I'm scum. You literally say "here's a scumslip from Ghosting", and post a lot of inferences to my alignment.
Also, I never said anything about you voting me, or about you begging other people to vote me. I said it's the sudden change, a change that occurred even after you had seen my claim, that drew my attention. Just like you're raising a question, so am I. We are literally in the exact same boat with each other lol, just suspicious of an action and questioning it.
There's still some questions you didn't answer that I asked you earlier to please answer, so going to ask them again:
1) Can you explain how me saying "There's a possibility you'll be lynched in the future", in response to "I'll run circles around scum, there's no way I'm getting lynched", is me grasping for straws? Can you tell me how it benefits my case, convinces you of something that I would desperately want, or in any other way is something manipulative? It wasn't related to anything we were talking about, it was a standalone, off-topic point, but you chose to say I was "grasping for straws" instead of answering the two other questions in the post.
2) You say stuff like "Ghosting is attacking everyone that questioned anything he does". Are you just saying this because I'm questioning you now? Before I questioned you, I was battling off horrible cases, according to you. You praised me for it. Then you say "Oh well the latest cases have justification"...so, you don't actually think they were horrible cases now? And the latest is Brinatoo, so...defend his case? It doesn't even make sense. Like, literally.
3) Let's say you let me live today. Do you see me living long if I don't prove my role?
I actually am still reading you as fairly town after this though, I just don't agree with a few points you're making against me. Mainly the grasping at straws thing and that I'm not scumhunting.
How many people are claiming neutral? There has to be some liars in the neutral group, I'm worried about Ghosting's claim more than his play this game :S He seems really town but he claimed neutral -.- It's offputting.
Goddamn I'm confused, and apparently scummy to boot. Anyway should I claim to not get vigged? How many people are claiming neutral? There has to be some liars in the neutral group, I'm worried about Ghosting's claim more than his play this game :S He seems really town but he claimed neutral -.- It's offputting.
This post reads as if you've been following the recent chain of events much closer than you should be, considering you haven't been around jn forever, yet you're bringing things up from pages ago.
Goddamn I'm confused, and apparently scummy to boot. Anyway should I claim to not get vigged? How many people are claiming neutral? There has to be some liars in the neutral group, I'm worried about Ghosting's claim more than his play this game :S He seems really town but he claimed neutral -.- It's offputting.
Almost everything I wanted to say in response to this has been addressed by Seppel and TS, but I'll get a bit more specific:
1) You say you're confused, but are well aware that you are a vig option, three people have claimed neutral, that I've played town this game, etc. These are three points that indicate the exact opposite of confusion. Are you confused as to why people think you're scum? Are you confused that you're being discussed as a potential vig target?
2) What, specifically, about my claim is offputting? I'm not trying to convince you it's not, but is it offputting just because it's a neutral claim? If you think I've been town this whole game, and am a neutral role who can benefit town, what about it is bothering you? Also, your statement is highly passive: you're not actually saying anything about the actions you're going to take, just coming in and saying something for the sake of saying it.
3) You say "some liars in the neutral group". Do you think there could be more than one liar? Do you think there could be no liars? Do you think GJ or NAG are lying?
@Mato: One more question: why aren't you roleplaying anymore?
I don't know if this is in bad taste or not, but Mato has posted and is posting much more actively in Off the Grid. Note: I am not reading that game, or pushing any views relevant to that game; I have no idea what's going on it. But, he posted June 2nd a few times, June 4th also a few times, June 6th many times, and already twice today. We have seen next to nothing here. What does that tell us? Mato has been able to be active here, and has shown that, but is not willing to be. He isn't contributing, is purposefully not posting.
You realize shooting me is the same thing as shooting NAG, and vice versa....
In addition, bread crumbing "town". What does that even mean? Everyone in the game wants to breadcrumb town, myself included.
Quote from IMAB »
There's a disconnect here GJ. You read me as town. I breadcrumbed town via the role pm way before anyone else did. You're cclaiming to want to work with town. I'm as close to town confirmed as can be without being an innocent child or a mason and you're advocating that I get shot. You're scum.
My read for you as town was for basically not having the balls to do that as scum. I am guessing as you were looking for proof, you missed Proph and mine's little back and forth? If you were town, I would imagine you would have read that and realized it might have made sense why I might be ok lynching you.
I guess I'm ok with Mato being the lynch for today. I don't want him to be the vig though. I want to be able to go back and look at things after someone more involved flips.
I guess I'm ok with Mato being the lynch for today. I don't want him to be the vig though. I want to be able to go back and look at things after someone more involved flips.
I agree that Mato probably isn't the best vig for this reason, and that he is a better lynch. While I do feel that Mato deserves to be killed in some way, we want our vig shot to be more useful.
@GJ:
What makes it softballing to you? Some of them might be a little easy, but some seem outright accusatory. It might be bussing, if Ghosting is scum. I dunno about softballing.
And I'm completely bewildered by you guys wanting to lynch Mayo and vig someone else. If we lynch Mayo who has close to no interactions besides everyone scum reading him, we get almost no info from his wagon.
He's a much better vig than he is a lynch. If we lynch someone scummier we get info from their wagon like who pushed it, who jumped in on a pretext, who hammered, who bussed him if he flipped scum, etc. We lose all that if we lynch Mato because pretty much everyone is OK with that.
And yes, for the record, I'd be fine with vigging Mato but it's up to Mindreaver ultimately.
@GJ:
What makes it softballing to you? Some of them might be a little easy, but some seem outright accusatory. It might be bussing, if Ghosting is scum. I dunno about softballing.
If it was me asking anyone else questions in that format, it'd be me "crafting responses". No matter what I do or say it's framed in favour of the person's reads. A bussing claim would be a stretch, but at least GJ could reference 963 and 968, various parts of 960, my past posts that have listed Mato as scum. Saying I'm softballing is just a misrep.
And I'm completely bewildered by you guys wanting to lynch Mayo and vig someone else. If we lynch Mayo who has close to no interactions besides everyone scum reading him, we get almost no info from his wagon.
He's a much better vig than he is a lynch. If we lynch someone scummier we get info from their wagon like who pushed it, who jumped in on a pretext, who hammered, who bussed him if he flipped scum, etc. We lose all that if we lynch Mato because pretty much everyone is OK with that.
And yes, for the record, I'd be fine with vigging Mato but it's up to Mindreaver ultimately.
This is actually a very good point, and I really just thought of it in a much more linear sense (basically, didn't consider that we can analyze who was on his wagon).
EBWODP: Should read "basically, only considered that we could analyze a scummier vig read". As in, I didn't factor in that the majority are okay with a Mato lynch, so it wouldn't give us much info.
I'm going to be v/la until Tuesday night, although I'll do my best to check in, just won't have time to post as much. Working all weekend and have three exams to study for on Monday/Tuesday that I am nowhere near prepared enough for. :/
Ghosting - Really conflicted. On one hand, he's right about the importance of his claim, but probably not which night he'll die. I think he eats the NK night 2, depending on what items are on the ground when the dust settles today/tonight. On the other hand, his posts toward Brinatoo and TS are troubling. They could have been Mindreaver quotes instead, very easily. There is so much "everyone look at this..." and post splitting arguing going on, I just don't know what to think. @TS and @Brinatoo, now that you've both been on the receiving end of a Ghosting debate, what are your thoughts here? Is he just trying to make others look worse or is this just how he plays? I suspect if I hadn't had as strong of a claim, I'd still be mired in those same conversations you are both having, and I'm not sure whether he's scum trying to throw suspicion or it's just his style.
Kraj - Mato and Ghosting are claiming/asking about whether to claim to save themselves. You're MIA completely. You're still near the top of my list. Please do something. Make a case for yourself, or one of the others.
Mato - Going to need a lot more than that. While I don't want to reference other games, I can see from your profile "last online" time (17 minutes ago as of this post), that you ARE on the site. So stop lurking on purpose, or I think you're dead no matter what.
IABM - Better lately. Interesting breadcrumb on the good guys thing. I think that's worth some towncred, but I agree with NAG... "show me" don't "tell me" (borrowing that line from TS as well).
Jobie - I hated that jump on my wagon, and I'm waiting for a response about it still (vote is still there as well). There is IMO scum to be found there, but we can't vig them all. I don't see many people with a read on him.
Hunger - welcome back, can't wait for the catch-up. I'll share my thoughts on you after
I hadn't considered a lot of the wagon analysis comments that silver brought up. I think for the most part I wanted info from a vig flip, and then lynch somebody. But I think there is some merit to checking a wagon after a lynch, and a lurker wagon would mean nothing. Probably the best shot is either Mato or Kraj, and if they have something to say, they should say it in the next 24 hours.
Okay, I have to comment on this.
businessman's crumbing should get him zero towncred.
Zero.
He could have a fake claim PM. His role PM could say he is one of the bad guys and he used basic logic. Hell, he could have just got lucky with his spamming. There are too many possibilities of a false positive here to lend it any credence whatsoever.
I would argue that the desire to breadcrumb it like that, and point it out so triumphantly, actually makes it MORE likely to be fake.
But that is just my opinion. Factually, it is null at best.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Curiosity killed the cat. But for awhile, I was a suspect.
Goddamn I'm confused, and apparently scummy to boot. Anyway should I claim to not get vigged? How many people are claiming neutral? There has to be some liars in the neutral group, I'm worried about Ghosting's claim more than his play this game :S He seems really town but he claimed neutral -.- It's offputting.
@SEPPEL
I think you can safely put Mato in the FOR SHOOTING MATO category after this...
I guess I'm ok with Mato being the lynch for today. I don't want him to be the vig though. I want to be able to go back and look at things after someone more involved flips.
Dead scum's dead scum. We will definitely be able to see connections either way in my opinion. I'd like to get a flip soon so we can start looking at these items.... but I'm always bloodthirsty when it comes to Mafia deaths.
Can you talk to me a little more about Proph? Do you think his recent absence is telling in any way?
@Mato: One more question: why aren't you roleplaying anymore?
I don't know if this is in bad taste or not, but Mato has posted and is posting much more actively in Off the Grid. Note: I am not reading that game, or pushing any views relevant to that game; I have no idea what's going on it. But, he posted June 2nd a few times, June 4th also a few times, June 6th many times, and already twice today. We have seen next to nothing here. What does that tell us? Mato has been able to be active here, and has shown that, but is not willing to be. He isn't contributing, is purposefully not posting.
Incredibly bad form. Do not talk about ongoing games. Ever. Go read Deathspeaker for why I know that (also Animal Mafia to get the full context)
@GJ:
What makes it softballing to you? Some of them might be a little easy, but some seem outright accusatory. It might be bussing, if Ghosting is scum. I dunno about softballing.
Softballing means I am accusing him of asking light questions, either because he is trying to look busy, or because he is questioning his partner to make him look good. But the tone itself comes off very lightly. His tone towards me in AA was much more certain, and almost cutthroat.
Quote from Ghosting »
3) You say "some liars in the neutral group". Do you think there could be more than one liar? Do you think there could be no liars? Do you think GJ or NAG are lying?
4) Why do you think we shouldn't vig you?
5) Scum reads? Anything? T/S list?
Question three gives him an INSANE amount of wiggle room. A quick skim of the last two pages would show the people who don't believe me, NAG, and ghosting are all neutral, he could easily answer in a way that appeals to the pulse.
Four shouldn't have to be a question at all. He already knows he is on thin ice, and he should be doing everything he can to be proving he is town if he is.
Five is just a free question. If Ghosting came in with "give me your top three town and scum, that is at least a direction question that forces his answer. mato could choose to give more, but it at least has structure, and forces a stance. The way Ghosting actually asked the question makes him able to answer the question in the way easiest to him. You can't tell me you read the questions and thought they looked solid.
And that Seppel and TS also replied very similarly?
I am not worried about Seppel and TS right now.
Quote from TS »
I guess I'm ok with Mato being the lynch for today. I don't want him to be the vig though. I want to be able to go back and look at things after someone more involved flips.
Do you not want Mindreaver to shoot today?
Quote from Mindreaver »
Ghosting - Really conflicted. On one hand, he's right about the importance of his claim, but probably not which night he'll die. I think he eats the NK night 2, depending on what items are on the ground when the dust settles today/tonight. On the other hand, his posts toward Brinatoo and TS are troubling. They could have been Mindreaver quotes instead, very easily. There is so much "everyone look at this..." and post splitting arguing going on, I just don't know what to think. @TS and @Brinatoo, now that you've both been on the receiving end of a Ghosting debate, what are your thoughts here? Is he just trying to make others look worse or is this just how he plays? I suspect if I hadn't had as strong of a claim, I'd still be mired in those same conversations you are both having, and I'm not sure whether he's scum trying to throw suspicion or it's just his style.
....Alright, the bolded. If we assume Ghosting is truly neutral, why do the mafia kill him? Why would any mafia team chase after a neutral that isn't a direct threat to their team?
Gah. I really hate posting without being fully caught up and having thought through everything, but it's taking longer than I thought. I'll post some quick thoughts here and follow up with more in depth stuff that I took notes on when I have more time.
I don't like the multiple neutral claims. 3 claimed neutrals in this size "normal" game seems off to me. I want to parse through the claims we have so far. I know I was already suspicious of the "good guy" stuff before and about whether the lovers are actually neutral. On the surface I think I believe Ghosting's claim though. I don't really see why he would lie about that claim as scum and then be so adamant that he is going to be killed for it. I feel like the paranoia is genuine. I didn't read a lot of his walls though so I want to parse through all the info he gave us. I'd be against vigging him at this point though.
The point against Mato is real. That post is so bad and clearly lets on he knows more about this game and has been following along. Absolutely on board with Mindreaver shooting him dead.
I also haven't liked what I've seen of Jobie. Not sure about vigging him yet, but I wouldn't oppose it.
I am a waste of a vig shot. You can probably figure out why with pretty minimal effort.
Everyone knows this already, but I can't imagine that Silver is not town.
Likewise, Blosc is likely a very good player as either alignment regardless of his disdain for playing scum and could be tricking us, but I would not be on board with him being vigged or lynched.
I agree with NAG that ima's crumb should not be giving him as much towncred as people seem to be giving him for it. Mostly because I am suspicious of those roleclaims without "Town" in them to begin with.
I have some stuff to respond to from Hunt and some additional clarification/points to make there.
I have some stuff to address re:Seppel and the good guy claims in general.
@Hunt - Humor me on this one please? Is your character Russian?
Then you're going to consistently get lynched and vigged, because people can't parse your thoughts and identify your alignment.
A full reads list with explanations for each would be a start. I've read through your iso probably ten times now, and I come away with nothing every time. There's no effort to figure things out, there's no effort to lynch scum, there's no attempt to interact and play the game. It's just very sporadic posts packed full of roleplay and emoticons, with some rambling thoughts that don't /lead/ to anything. What are your conclusions? Who do you want to lynch, why?
I struggle to see how you make some of your posts as scum, but there's just almost no town mindset I can see either.
If you are town, 90% of your job as town is to make other town be able to identify you as town. This is doubly true as a newer player if you don't fully trust your reads or analysis.
I still think matowar is town. I hope he is not offended by this, but I just don't think he is a sophisticated enough player to seed false towntells. Refusing to change his style, staying lighthearted under pressure, showing a desire to improve, etc.
But you know what?
He is a perfectly fine vig target for the exact same reasons as businessman.
You can't be sure of his alignment from his posts, he isn't helping solve the game, and he is very easy for scum to interact with as either alignment.
I would still rather it be businessman just because matowar is pleasant and, in my opinion, less likely to be scum. But whatever.
I was gonna spend my free time tomorrow convincing you all matowar is town, but now I'm going to spend it casing brinatoo instead.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Curiosity killed the cat. But for awhile, I was a suspect.
If you're convinced that Matowar is town, then convincing us or at least Mindreaver of that isn't a bad use of time. Just going to need to be very specific with quotes and pointing things out.
(I should have more free time starting either late tonight, or tomorrow afternoon, depending how hard I push to finish tonight or not. Back to work I go.)
....Alright, the bolded. If we assume Ghosting is truly neutral, why do the mafia kill him? Why would any mafia team chase after a neutral that isn't a direct threat to their team?
Because lets say somebody dies with an item N1, somebody with a gun for instance. N2 Ghosting picks it up. N3 he can pass it to anyone in the thread, and also make them untargetable, even if they try to kill ghosting instead N3. A N2 kill keeps the item from falling into anyone else's hands.
I'll admit though, there is no guarantee that ghosting passes the item to a town character, and it might be dangerous to pass blindly. But he also has an ammo clip, so he can reload whatever he picks up. This all assumes that after the bodies are on the ground, there is a decent item to use.
Against shooting Matowar: NAG
Unknown: IMAB, Jobie, Brinatoo, Mindreaver, Hunger, Silver, Kraj, Bloscovi.
What happened to your "multiple" scum theory? Why are you voting a neutral?
TappingStones
Mindreaver
Seppel
IABM
NAG
Those are the people I feel pretty good about right now.
The rest is pretty ugly. We have a ton of work to do. So I'm hoping that Mindreaver shoots a player not on my list who has some interactions we can check out. The dream is Bloscovi but I guess I'll have to work hard to nail the Kingpin. The crappy part about Matowar is that if you look back at our last game with him (Ace Attorney) we ran him up right away and he was town. Doing that twice in a row is pretty rough. How scummy is he? His disappearing act is the main thing with me. Ghosting is attacking everyone that questioned anything he does. I have defended him for a long time and am still doing that, but he starts throwing shade at me when I question some really shoddy behavior. Why am I not allowed to find problems with you Ghosting?
If you are town there are going to be some things you are going to need to look back on after this game but I'll leave that for the postgame wrap-up.
IABM is a no go as lynch or vig shot today (I know, Mindreaver can do what he likes, I'm just throwing down my feeling on it). He claimed good guy before it was cool to do so. The scum would be chomping at the bit if he gets killed. We likely lose a towny and gain zero information.
Who are the two players who are A)SOLID scum targets and B)Give us interaction to analyze. Now A certainly trumps B but we aren't just going to lynch a lurker because some people don't want to read the game.
You're allowed to think I'm scum. My query, which you didn't respond to, is that you went from a huge strong town read on me, defending me, pointing it out, to an instant scum read very quickly. Only a few posts ago you were saying I was super town. There's other questions as well, so please answer them, but one was about that switch. Another was something like, if you base behaviour on reads, not role, then why is my role being judged, unless that statement isn't true.
Also, you praised me for how I've been what you now call "going after everyone". Is it praise worthy or scum worthy? You can't say both.
And finally, I'm not town, why do you keep saying "if you're town"?
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
I'm also allowed to question inconsistent behaviour, it's mafia lol. I'm not even voting you.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Has Mato been prodded?
@Everyone: Did anyone at all see my latest response to Brinatoo? If you don't think he's scum, you must at least be baffled by his responses. Like they don't make sense, or say that my questions don't make sense when they clearly do, multiple times in a row, etc. For town out there, if you like me or not, please read through it and make up your own mind. I don't care if people don't want to look at my reads because they think I'm scum, my role is genuinely what it is and I'm just trying to power out as much scum hunting as can before I die so you guys have more interactions and info to go off of. Brinatoo is an example of that and one I think should be really eye opening.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
@Seppel: Weren't you just voting Brinatoo? Why isn't he one of your options anymore? Did I miss something?
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
What is so hard to understand about this? Some of your recent posts are bad. I've mentioned them and gave detailed reasoning about them. The claim seems fake to me. Being a neutral is whatever. You said you would surely be the nightkill in NO SANE WORLD are you the nightkill that is an absurd statement to make.
Now if you look I am not voting you. I'm beginning to wonder why I'm not though, as instead of trying to scumhunt you are just trying strawman my statements against you and vote opportunistically.
And you say "i'm not even voting you." Be my guest!
Ghosting you defended pretty well against the stuff Proph and Bloscovi threw down on you. More recent criticism has some justification...and AGAIN I've already talked about this.
If you want everyone to vote you then by all means keep up these recent attempts to misrep. If you don't know why I have doubt, I'M NOT EVEN F ing VOTING YOU OR SUGGESTING PEOPLE TO VOTE YOU. I found somethings that I don't like and expressed as such. The claim is bad and doesn't sound real, the post leading up to it also sounds made up. ISO me for the rest because I'm not going to repeat myself ad nauseum just to have you twist my meanings.
What? I have been actively scumhunting, and that's pretty undeniable. My last post I questioned Seppel, made a huge post about Brinatoo, this post began as me pursuing a suspicion based on the read change and how you went about it, etc. I've been scumhunting a lotttttt (I feel like most people would agree with this).
I said I'm not voting you because you're claiming I'm opportunistically jumping on you (and other wagons), and that I'm attacking anyone with a dissenting view. I have no desire to vote you right now considering you were one of my strongest town reads and I am reading other people as much, much scummier than you. I'm just trying to clarify some points that raised an eyebrow.
So you think Brinatoo's latest post is justified? Do you think it even makes sense? My response shows that. I'm interested in how you think he handled himself. The only recent posts that have any validity are the ones that are wondering if my claim is real (they are valid because that's a perfectly logical conclusion for town to postulate). Otherwise I've broken down how it's either a misrep, doesn't make sense, or not about anything recent. If town is reading and genuinely wants to see this, it can be seen.
I'm not misrepping you at all, while you have factually misrepped me (saying I haven't been scumhunting comes to mind).
So I'm not "twisting the meanings" of your statements, I'll just directly quote what you said that proves you are in fact suggesting people kill me:
You're not big on claims, and say my claim doesn't affect your views as much as behaviour, but then a couple of posts later:
This is surrounded by a bunch of speculation as to why I'm scum. You literally say "here's a scumslip from Ghosting", and post a lot of inferences to my alignment.
Also, I never said anything about you voting me, or about you begging other people to vote me. I said it's the sudden change, a change that occurred even after you had seen my claim, that drew my attention. Just like you're raising a question, so am I. We are literally in the exact same boat with each other lol, just suspicious of an action and questioning it.
There's still some questions you didn't answer that I asked you earlier to please answer, so going to ask them again:
1) Can you explain how me saying "There's a possibility you'll be lynched in the future", in response to "I'll run circles around scum, there's no way I'm getting lynched", is me grasping for straws? Can you tell me how it benefits my case, convinces you of something that I would desperately want, or in any other way is something manipulative? It wasn't related to anything we were talking about, it was a standalone, off-topic point, but you chose to say I was "grasping for straws" instead of answering the two other questions in the post.
2) You say stuff like "Ghosting is attacking everyone that questioned anything he does". Are you just saying this because I'm questioning you now? Before I questioned you, I was battling off horrible cases, according to you. You praised me for it. Then you say "Oh well the latest cases have justification"...so, you don't actually think they were horrible cases now? And the latest is Brinatoo, so...defend his case? It doesn't even make sense. Like, literally.
3) Let's say you let me live today. Do you see me living long if I don't prove my role?
I actually am still reading you as fairly town after this though, I just don't agree with a few points you're making against me. Mainly the grasping at straws thing and that I'm not scumhunting.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
What are you confused about?
Have a talk with Mindreaver about that.
Where did you disappear to....twice?
Who do you think is lying in the neutral group?
Are you going to post more or go away again?
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Is this a joke because Brinatoo said that in response to half of my replies to him?
And what I said, so that people know why I'm saying this and it doesn't become another massive quote war nobody reads:
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
1. "Oops I'm back, reading now."
2. [quote wall]
3. Actual scumhunting content. (Nonexistent in this game so far.)
4. Apology for being away for so long that he's staring down the barrel of a gun.
But instead of any one of those, we got the mess above.
Almost everything I wanted to say in response to this has been addressed by Seppel and TS, but I'll get a bit more specific:
1) You say you're confused, but are well aware that you are a vig option, three people have claimed neutral, that I've played town this game, etc. These are three points that indicate the exact opposite of confusion. Are you confused as to why people think you're scum? Are you confused that you're being discussed as a potential vig target?
2) What, specifically, about my claim is offputting? I'm not trying to convince you it's not, but is it offputting just because it's a neutral claim? If you think I've been town this whole game, and am a neutral role who can benefit town, what about it is bothering you? Also, your statement is highly passive: you're not actually saying anything about the actions you're going to take, just coming in and saying something for the sake of saying it.
3) You say "some liars in the neutral group". Do you think there could be more than one liar? Do you think there could be no liars? Do you think GJ or NAG are lying?
4) Why do you think we shouldn't vig you?
5) Scum reads? Anything? T/S list?
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Is that a neutral soft claim from you?
I don't know if this is in bad taste or not, but Mato has posted and is posting much more actively in Off the Grid. Note: I am not reading that game, or pushing any views relevant to that game; I have no idea what's going on it. But, he posted June 2nd a few times, June 4th also a few times, June 6th many times, and already twice today. We have seen next to nothing here. What does that tell us? Mato has been able to be active here, and has shown that, but is not willing to be. He isn't contributing, is purposefully not posting.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
You realize shooting me is the same thing as shooting NAG, and vice versa....
In addition, bread crumbing "town". What does that even mean? Everyone in the game wants to breadcrumb town, myself included.
My read for you as town was for basically not having the balls to do that as scum. I am guessing as you were looking for proof, you missed Proph and mine's little back and forth? If you were town, I would imagine you would have read that and realized it might have made sense why I might be ok lynching you.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
The GJ way path to no lynching:
So...you realize I've been scumreading Mato for ages now, and was only not voting him to give him a chance to reply?
And that Seppel and TS also replied very similarly?
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
I agree that Mato probably isn't the best vig for this reason, and that he is a better lynch. While I do feel that Mato deserves to be killed in some way, we want our vig shot to be more useful.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
What makes it softballing to you? Some of them might be a little easy, but some seem outright accusatory. It might be bussing, if Ghosting is scum. I dunno about softballing.
He's a much better vig than he is a lynch. If we lynch someone scummier we get info from their wagon like who pushed it, who jumped in on a pretext, who hammered, who bussed him if he flipped scum, etc. We lose all that if we lynch Mato because pretty much everyone is OK with that.
And yes, for the record, I'd be fine with vigging Mato but it's up to Mindreaver ultimately.
If it was me asking anyone else questions in that format, it'd be me "crafting responses". No matter what I do or say it's framed in favour of the person's reads. A bussing claim would be a stretch, but at least GJ could reference 963 and 968, various parts of 960, my past posts that have listed Mato as scum. Saying I'm softballing is just a misrep.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
This is actually a very good point, and I really just thought of it in a much more linear sense (basically, didn't consider that we can analyze who was on his wagon).
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Ghosting - Really conflicted. On one hand, he's right about the importance of his claim, but probably not which night he'll die. I think he eats the NK night 2, depending on what items are on the ground when the dust settles today/tonight. On the other hand, his posts toward Brinatoo and TS are troubling. They could have been Mindreaver quotes instead, very easily. There is so much "everyone look at this..." and post splitting arguing going on, I just don't know what to think. @TS and @Brinatoo, now that you've both been on the receiving end of a Ghosting debate, what are your thoughts here? Is he just trying to make others look worse or is this just how he plays? I suspect if I hadn't had as strong of a claim, I'd still be mired in those same conversations you are both having, and I'm not sure whether he's scum trying to throw suspicion or it's just his style.
Kraj - Mato and Ghosting are claiming/asking about whether to claim to save themselves. You're MIA completely. You're still near the top of my list. Please do something. Make a case for yourself, or one of the others.
Mato - Going to need a lot more than that. While I don't want to reference other games, I can see from your profile "last online" time (17 minutes ago as of this post), that you ARE on the site. So stop lurking on purpose, or I think you're dead no matter what.
IABM - Better lately. Interesting breadcrumb on the good guys thing. I think that's worth some towncred, but I agree with NAG... "show me" don't "tell me" (borrowing that line from TS as well).
Jobie - I hated that jump on my wagon, and I'm waiting for a response about it still (vote is still there as well). There is IMO scum to be found there, but we can't vig them all. I don't see many people with a read on him.
Hunger - welcome back, can't wait for the catch-up. I'll share my thoughts on you after
I hadn't considered a lot of the wagon analysis comments that silver brought up. I think for the most part I wanted info from a vig flip, and then lynch somebody. But I think there is some merit to checking a wagon after a lynch, and a lurker wagon would mean nothing. Probably the best shot is either Mato or Kraj, and if they have something to say, they should say it in the next 24 hours.
businessman's crumbing should get him zero towncred.
Zero.
He could have a fake claim PM. His role PM could say he is one of the bad guys and he used basic logic. Hell, he could have just got lucky with his spamming. There are too many possibilities of a false positive here to lend it any credence whatsoever.
I would argue that the desire to breadcrumb it like that, and point it out so triumphantly, actually makes it MORE likely to be fake.
But that is just my opinion. Factually, it is null at best.
[[Against shooting Matowar - 1]] NAG
[[Waiting on answers from - 7]] IMAB, Jobie, Brinatoo, Mindreaver, Hunger, Kraj, Bloscovi.
Hope that clears things up
@SEPPEL
I think you can safely put Mato in the FOR SHOOTING MATO category after this...
Dead scum's dead scum. We will definitely be able to see connections either way in my opinion. I'd like to get a flip soon so we can start looking at these items.... but I'm always bloodthirsty when it comes to Mafia deaths.
Can you talk to me a little more about Proph? Do you think his recent absence is telling in any way?
Was only ONE of the questions a softball... or the whole post in general? Incredibly bad form. Do not talk about ongoing games. Ever. Go read Deathspeaker for why I know that (also Animal Mafia to get the full context)
Softballing means I am accusing him of asking light questions, either because he is trying to look busy, or because he is questioning his partner to make him look good. But the tone itself comes off very lightly. His tone towards me in AA was much more certain, and almost cutthroat.
Question three gives him an INSANE amount of wiggle room. A quick skim of the last two pages would show the people who don't believe me, NAG, and ghosting are all neutral, he could easily answer in a way that appeals to the pulse.
Four shouldn't have to be a question at all. He already knows he is on thin ice, and he should be doing everything he can to be proving he is town if he is.
Five is just a free question. If Ghosting came in with "give me your top three town and scum, that is at least a direction question that forces his answer. mato could choose to give more, but it at least has structure, and forces a stance. The way Ghosting actually asked the question makes him able to answer the question in the way easiest to him. You can't tell me you read the questions and thought they looked solid.
I am not worried about Seppel and TS right now.
Do you not want Mindreaver to shoot today?
....Alright, the bolded. If we assume Ghosting is truly neutral, why do the mafia kill him? Why would any mafia team chase after a neutral that isn't a direct threat to their team?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Going to catch up now.
I don't like the multiple neutral claims. 3 claimed neutrals in this size "normal" game seems off to me. I want to parse through the claims we have so far. I know I was already suspicious of the "good guy" stuff before and about whether the lovers are actually neutral. On the surface I think I believe Ghosting's claim though. I don't really see why he would lie about that claim as scum and then be so adamant that he is going to be killed for it. I feel like the paranoia is genuine. I didn't read a lot of his walls though so I want to parse through all the info he gave us. I'd be against vigging him at this point though.
The point against Mato is real. That post is so bad and clearly lets on he knows more about this game and has been following along. Absolutely on board with Mindreaver shooting him dead.
I also haven't liked what I've seen of Jobie. Not sure about vigging him yet, but I wouldn't oppose it.
I am a waste of a vig shot. You can probably figure out why with pretty minimal effort.
Everyone knows this already, but I can't imagine that Silver is not town.
Likewise, Blosc is likely a very good player as either alignment regardless of his disdain for playing scum and could be tricking us, but I would not be on board with him being vigged or lynched.
I agree with NAG that ima's crumb should not be giving him as much towncred as people seem to be giving him for it. Mostly because I am suspicious of those roleclaims without "Town" in them to begin with.
I have some stuff to respond to from Hunt and some additional clarification/points to make there.
I have some stuff to address re:Seppel and the good guy claims in general.
@Hunt - Humor me on this one please? Is your character Russian?
I never would have guessed.
I read Matowar's posts and just go ???.
You have about ten posts in the game, half of which are filled with role play, and half of the other half are difficult to parse any content from.
A full reads list with explanations for each would be a start. I've read through your iso probably ten times now, and I come away with nothing every time. There's no effort to figure things out, there's no effort to lynch scum, there's no attempt to interact and play the game. It's just very sporadic posts packed full of roleplay and emoticons, with some rambling thoughts that don't /lead/ to anything. What are your conclusions? Who do you want to lynch, why?
I struggle to see how you make some of your posts as scum, but there's just almost no town mindset I can see either.
If you are town, 90% of your job as town is to make other town be able to identify you as town. This is doubly true as a newer player if you don't fully trust your reads or analysis.
But you know what?
He is a perfectly fine vig target for the exact same reasons as businessman.
You can't be sure of his alignment from his posts, he isn't helping solve the game, and he is very easy for scum to interact with as either alignment.
I would still rather it be businessman just because matowar is pleasant and, in my opinion, less likely to be scum. But whatever.
I was gonna spend my free time tomorrow convincing you all matowar is town, but now I'm going to spend it casing brinatoo instead.
If you're convinced that Matowar is town, then convincing us or at least Mindreaver of that isn't a bad use of time. Just going to need to be very specific with quotes and pointing things out.
Because lets say somebody dies with an item N1, somebody with a gun for instance. N2 Ghosting picks it up. N3 he can pass it to anyone in the thread, and also make them untargetable, even if they try to kill ghosting instead N3. A N2 kill keeps the item from falling into anyone else's hands.
I'll admit though, there is no guarantee that ghosting passes the item to a town character, and it might be dangerous to pass blindly. But he also has an ammo clip, so he can reload whatever he picks up. This all assumes that after the bodies are on the ground, there is a decent item to use.
I actually laughed out loud at this...