I have a mild townread on Matowar in the first place, though - he seems to be posting without guile, and his posts are pretty carefree, despite the large amount of smileys that make me cringe.
Putting myself in Matowar's shoes, Matowar here is mostly reporting observations about the game at large. What's interesting here is that while Matowar is kind of indecisive about most of his reads, "doesn't seem to be wrong on GJ" implies that Matowar has a townread on GJ. This can indicate that Matowar is just agreeing with Ghosting with respect to GJ, or Matowar knows GJ's alignment.
I'm inclined to think it's the former, though? I don't think Ghosting/Matowar are buddies with how Matowar just carelessly agreed with one of Ghosting's reads, and so if Ghosting flips scum here, I think Matowar is town. So yeah, unaligned pairs and stuff.
Did I miss anything/what's your view? I didn't even notice that phrase when I read through Matowar's post, so I'm interested as to why it grabbed your attention.
It's only thing in his post that grabbed my attention at all, really, because it's in stark contrast to the rest of it.
Well.
The only thing other than the brain melting emoticons, rather.
TS... Hardwood isn't James Bond, Not_a_gimmick is, you clearly aren't American, you're not even wearing a flag on your head. I just PM'd Iso and we can pass around items during night before the NK happens So we can save useful stuff... in America! I'm also seeing if we get to know what someone was carrying when they die since normally we just get a role PM from the President.
Misread the name there.
UNVOTE
I swear I'm American. But I live in China so there is that...
@Not a gimmick-Why would you claim to be James Bond immediately? You like WIFOM or something? Whoever has that role must have a lot of power and I don't get why you'd throw it out there for scum so quickly.
Mindreaver's posts are confusing me. I think he should try to figure out stuff in the thread rather than comprehend a nonsensical poem.
It's not nonsense. Bet Exclaimations Would Suck. It was a message. Although not what I thought it was. I was hoping it was something coded, since this is a spy based mafia. "Give me the three digit code" seems like it'd just get you killed in this world.
of course now,
Unvote, Vote Hardwood
Cause you wasted my time
I did not waste anybody's time! It was a message, but I did not want it to be one that was too important in case it was not understood. That seems to have been the correct decision, as I hadn't figured it would be that hard to figure out, though apparantly it was.
I agree that Hardwood is posting a lot (and trying entirely too hard), but unsure as to what that means in terms of his alignment. I know I've done exactly what he is doing, right now, in the past.
I kind of want him to actually post something of substance, though.
Mindreaver's posts are confusing me. I think he should try to figure out stuff in the thread rather than comprehend a nonsensical poem.
Is the poem not 'stuff in the thread'? Not exactly liking the policework here.
I would love to post something of substance too, but nothing has pinged me as red so far, and I don't imagine anybody is interested in townreads at this point.
TS... Hardwood isn't James Bond, Not_a_gimmick is, you clearly aren't American, you're not even wearing a flag on your head. I just PM'd Iso and we can pass around items during night before the NK happens So we can save useful stuff... in America! I'm also seeing if we get to know what someone was carrying when they die since normally we just get a role PM from the President.
Misread the name there.
UNVOTE
I swear I'm American. But I live in China so there is that...
@Not a gimmick-Why would you claim to be James Bond immediately? You like WIFOM or something? Whoever has that role must have a lot of power and I don't get why you'd throw it out there for scum so quickly.
It is curious that you would ask him directly now, when while you thought it was myself, you decided to ask the thread at large. What was it that made this difference?
I missed the name of the guy I was voting for. That's a little too sloppy for me, even around RVS. Slowed it back down a bit. Let's hear a response.
I missed the name of the guy I was voting for. That's a little too sloppy for me, even around RVS. Slowed it back down a bit. Let's hear a response.
I assume the "slowdown" is also why you didn't revote the correct player?
I understand your confused reaction at the James Bond claim. It's a natural, townie reaction to wonder why on earth a townie would do such a thing. Why didn't you give any thought to why a scum would? What does "trying too hard" mean?
On one hand you're confused about why NAG would claim the name in the game for no apparent reason and think through the reasons aloud. On the other hand, you're confident enough that it's either "fake" and "trying too hard", or a "terrible move", and you vote. The reasoning is flimsy, and the "lying or playing badly" accusation is a false dichotomy scum love to use. Combine that with the sloppiness of getting the name wrong, and the backpedaling 'slowdown', it looks a lot less like trying to figure the situation out and a lot more like fear of James Bond.
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
I missed the name of the guy I was voting for. That's a little too sloppy for me, even around RVS. Slowed it back down a bit. Let's hear a response.
I assume the "slowdown" is also why you didn't revote the correct player?
I understand your confused reaction at the James Bond claim. It's a natural, townie reaction to wonder why on earth a townie would do such a thing. Why didn't you give any thought to why a scum would? What does "trying too hard" mean?
On one hand you're confused about why NAG would claim the name in the game for no apparent reason and think through the reasons aloud. On the other hand, you're confident enough that it's either "fake" and "trying too hard", or a "terrible move", and you vote. The reasoning is flimsy, and the "lying or playing badly" accusation is a false dichotomy scum love to use. Combine that with the sloppiness of getting the name wrong, and the backpedaling 'slowdown', it looks a lot less like trying to figure the situation out and a lot more like fear of James Bond.
I mean, to be fair you naked voted me. With only flimsy reasoning to work with. I don't think it's likely to be a good move for a character who flavor wise is very likely to be powerful to spew that he's James Bond for no (apparent) reason. But I did at least ask others in case I was missing some line of play.
But let's talk about you, why naked vote me? I mean isn't your vote important enough to at least provide reasoning? And then a follow up that appears to be an attempt to "test the waters" if others will follow up on your vote. The opportunistic nature of such a play isn't the towniest.
But let's talk about you, why naked vote me? I mean isn't your vote important enough to at least provide reasoning? And then a follow up that appears to be an attempt to "test the waters" if others will follow up on your vote. The opportunistic nature of such a play isn't the towniest.
If you don't think Kraj's opportunistic play is the towniest, why aren't you voting for him?
But let's talk about you, why naked vote me? I mean isn't your vote important enough to at least provide reasoning? And then a follow up that appears to be an attempt to "test the waters" if others will follow up on your vote. The opportunistic nature of such a play isn't the towniest.
If you don't think Kraj's opportunistic play is the towniest, why aren't you voting for him?
@Prop-I've noticed through what you've said in multiple games that you think players should never express any doubt in a player's alignment nor mention anyone's actions as being troublesome without voting them? Why is that? Me immediately voting Kraj for his bad vote on me doesn't actually do anything productive. I've noticed you knocking heads with several players who ended up being town with this kind of discussion. I think you also asked me this same question in my last town game with you though I'll have to take a look for it.
By your logic I should vote this person based on one thing I found to be untowny. If others followed suit the games would be full of mislynches...oh wait, that's MTGS mafia! = p
You claim to be against reads without reasoning, and yet you parroted my town read of GJ, without trying to figure out why I thought he was town, or determine my alignment. Reconcile this.
You claim to be against reads without reasoning, and yet you parroted my town read of GJ, without trying to figure out why I thought he was town, or determine my alignment. Reconcile this.
The means of your argument doesn't support the end. Your premise is that because I said I don't like reads without reasoning, my logic is flawed due to not figuring out your alignment. In reality, there is zero correlation between the two: I explained why I thought GJ was town, with my own reasoms, and made sure to explain those. I'm not sure what your alignment is and have no real obligation to know it so early or in order to guess other people's alignments.
I'm at work but will reply more later, off soon hopefully.
I did not really consider that James Bond would be be more likely to be powerful. I know exactly how powerful my role is, and so didn't think of it from that perspective.
Or maybe I thought about it a lot and have excellent reasons for claiming.
It's probably one of those two.
Bloscovi showing some solid thought process that seems townie to me. Could say the same about kraj and prophylaxis, but he has stood out the most.
I think the current scumreads on ghosting/tappingstones are more based on their personalities than anything game relevant. Both are null.
Maybe a microscopic scum lean on ghosting for thinking paranoia is scummy.
Still liking my vote where it is.
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Curiosity killed the cat. But for awhile, I was a suspect.
Alright I'll stop with the emoticons. You guys clearly don't appreciate the American dream.
@GJ: Get in here and talk about Ghosting.
@Proph: Even if you would have failed in Lylo your large post about alignments was one of the best posts in the game, it was well though out and well presented and helped a huge part in solving the game. Ghosting could be early clearing someone he knows is town and has an easy reason to think is town to avoid suspicion later, if we ever lynch GJ, Ghosting or I get a strong alignment read for Ghosting I'll have a better idea on this. I was more referring to how you guys feel he is Possible Scum and how I don't have a strong read either way yet. After noting the way GJ doesn't feel the need to defend himself, he's jumping pretty hard onto the backpedal from attempting to solve the game to uber defensive of his playstyle.
I have no idea how to word my answer to the Bloscovi question since the answer breaks forum rules... :'(
@TS: You aren't gonna go communist on me are you? If there's one thing we hate more than the French (The complete opposite of American) It's the commies
Bolded.
How am I being "uber defensive" of my playstyle? I literally go "I see why you think it, other people have too, this is kind of just the way I play." If anything, it was the exact opposite of uber defensive. I just don't understand the necessity to exaggerate. Can you explain why you did?
Additionally, why do you care specifically that GJ addresses me?
@Prop-I've noticed through what you've said in multiple games that you think players should never express any doubt in a player's alignment nor mention anyone's actions as being troublesome without voting them? Why is that?
This is basically mafia theory stuff that I said to Ghosting, but: If you are town, your vote is one of the few weapons you have. As such, it would behoove you to use it as aggressively as possible. The more people who vote, the more scum are forced to vote and justify it. You unvoting, then not voting Kraj when you think Kraj is being opportunistic, smacks of being non-commital with your vote.
Quote from TS »
Me immediately voting Kraj for his bad vote on me doesn't actually do anything productive.
Why don't you think it's productive?
You think Kraj is being opportunistic with regards to voting you, which you state "isn't the towniest line of play". If you're town and you think he's scum, then obviously you want to vote him so that we can lynch scum.
If you want him to respond to you and follow up on your comments, then a pressure vote adds to that; see how Bloscovi and I are interrogating Ghosting, even though we're voting for him.
This is basically mafia theory stuff that I said to Ghosting, but: If you are town, your vote is one of the few weapons you have. As such, it would behoove you to use it as aggressively as possible. The more people who vote, the more scum are forced to vote and justify it. You unvoting, then not voting Kraj when you think Kraj is being opportunistic, smacks of being non-commital with your vote. Why don't you think it's productive?
You think Kraj is being opportunistic with regards to voting you, which you state "isn't the towniest line of play". If you're town and you think he's scum, then obviously you want to vote him so that we can lynch scum.
If you want him to respond to you and follow up on your comments, then a pressure vote adds to that; see how Bloscovi and I are interrogating Ghosting, even though we're voting for him.
I understand that voting aggressively can circumstantially benefit town, but there's plenty of situations in which it is harmful to the player voting aggressively, the player being voted aggressively, and the town itself. It isn't a black and white issue, as awesome as that would be.
The only read I've got here, is TS. If NAG's claim was false, that's such a huge risk claiming it in the 7th post of the game, before 12 people could chime in. If it was a false claim, there should be a counterclaim, OR NAG took a risk that James Bond wouldn't be in the game at all.
As far as why somebody would claim a well known character, I'd have to have some faith that there was a plan there. Which I'm fine indulging for now (and I don't feel like giving the scum team any info on this). If NAG gets himself killed, that's on him. But clearly the assumption would be that James Bond HAS to be town, right?
So it's a little strange that none of this would be apparent to you TS. Yet you're doggedly pursuing his reasons. I don't like it. I don't have half the experience you do, and I can think of at least two reasons to claim exactly as NAG has.
Yeah, I understand that. Playstyle differences/culture clash, etc.
What are your views of the gamestate so far?
I think you, Mato, and GJ are town.
Mindreaver jumped from Hardwood to TS pretty quickly and retracted his vote from Hardwood by saying "I guess RVS is over, so Unvote", when his vote on Hardwood wasn't an RVS vote. So I'm curious his reasoning for that.
TS always is hard to read for me so I'm not sure where I stand on him, typically I find he reads very natural as town.
Hardwood seems town.
Also, I'm liking how analytical everyone seems so far. And active. But then again, it's the beginning of the game, and it's always that way at first lol.
I'm just going to start out with a flavor claim because I'm James ******* Bond and that's awesome. vote: gentleman johnny for getting serious
Weird.
I would think James Bond would be very powerful in a 007 game.
Why would he want to blurt it out in essentially post one?
Seems fake to me. Would town want to do that? I could see doing that if I was vanilla because I'd love to eat a night kill, in other cases seems like a terrible move. Trying too hard.
UNVOTE; VOTE:Hardwood
From the beginning you explain James Bond could be, by flavor, a very powerful role. Then you proceed to call this fake. Sure, he could have a plan or idea based on his role (for example he knows James Bond isn't among the populace and takes it as his own to indicate flavor-town or draws NKs from mafioso) but that is far-fetched and too many assumptions, but what you say after doesn't indicate this thought process. You ask others if town would do this and point out he could be a vanilla drawing fire for a NK and then under this circumstance say he is trying too hard. Because of the order of how you did this, and the discrepancies of thought process- I lean heavily scum mindset from this post.
I can't seem to find the smiley for fishing (which I thought they had at one point)
That could certainly be fishing, but if he wanted to figure out if I was worth killing, why lay the groundwork for a scumread simultaneously?
He thought you were faking the claim then proposed a vanilla town NK theory which was "trying too hard." "Seems fake to me." is tied together with "vanilla eat a night kill trying too hard" and "very powerful role" is tied together with "would town do that?" I have a hard time believing a townie would post those 4 in THAT order.
Care to elaborate on the "just feel crafted" portions of any post. I'm having a hard time feeling up on my computer.
I have a hard time articulating it into words, but in Ghosting's #43 the "didn't show any paranoia or anything, also didn't attack me in response" feels tacked on. That's kind of what I meant by crafted.
Also,
I'm mostly interested in the paranoia part of the statement but can't speak from experience. When, in your experience, does paranoia traits begin to emerge in a game? Right after RVS?
@Not a gimmick-Why would you claim to be James Bond immediately? You like WIFOM or something? Whoever has that role must have a lot of power and I don't get why you'd throw it out there for scum so quickly.
Back to being adamant with the "this isn't james bond theory and has a lot of power from flavor-gaming."
I missed the name of the guy I was voting for. That's a little too sloppy for me, even around RVS. Slowed it back down a bit. Let's hear a response.
I assume the "slowdown" is also why you didn't revote the correct player?
I understand your confused reaction at the James Bond claim. It's a natural, townie reaction to wonder why on earth a townie would do such a thing. Why didn't you give any thought to why a scum would? What does "trying too hard" mean?
On one hand you're confused about why NAG would claim the name in the game for no apparent reason and think through the reasons aloud. On the other hand, you're confident enough that it's either "fake" and "trying too hard", or a "terrible move", and you vote. The reasoning is flimsy, and the "lying or playing badly" accusation is a false dichotomy scum love to use. Combine that with the sloppiness of getting the name wrong, and the backpedaling 'slowdown', it looks a lot less like trying to figure the situation out and a lot more like fear of James Bond.
I agree with how wishywashy the statements are but don't believe this is a natural, townie reaction as I described above. I believe it is a natural error by scum.
I mean, to be fair you naked voted me. With only flimsy reasoning to work with. I don't think it's likely to be a good move for a character who flavor wise is very likely to be powerful to spew that he's James Bond for no (apparent) reason. But I did at least ask others in case I was missing some line of play.
But let's talk about you, why naked vote me? I mean isn't your vote important enough to at least provide reasoning? And then a follow up that appears to be an attempt to "test the waters" if others will follow up on your vote. The opportunistic nature of such a play isn't the towniest.
Countering flimsy reasoning with flimsy reasoning? Also someone help me out with what exactly a naked vote is (blind vote). Because if it's a blind vote, doesn't that contradict flimsy reasoning? Flimsy reasoning is still a reasoning albeit maybe wrong.
I did not really consider that James Bond would be be more likely to be powerful. I know exactly how powerful my role is, and so didn't think of it from that perspective.
Or maybe I thought about it a lot and have excellent reasons for claiming.
It's probably one of those two.
Bloscovi showing some solid thought process that seems townie to me. Could say the same about kraj and prophylaxis, but he has stood out the most.
I think the current scumreads on ghosting/tappingstones are more based on their personalities than anything game relevant. Both are null.
Maybe a microscopic scum lean on ghosting for thinking paranoia is scummy.
Still liking my vote where it is.
I think if TS is scum, NaG is town. The conversation between them doesn't ring buddies to me at all. unvote
vote TappingStones
Sure, but much like Kraj, you are not explaining what the red motivation behind TappingStones' actions is.
What would a red TappingStones gain by pressuring a blue roleclaimer?
It's not the pressure I mind. It's the fishing expedition to conceivably force NAG to say something that would help the scum team more than town. There isn't a town mindset that would call attention to a suspected town member taking this stand (I'm JB, come at me). What's the town motivation? "He's James Bond and I need to know exactly what he's doing". Why? Is the claim unbelievable? No. Is it an auto-clear? No. Do I need to know exactly what his plan is? Not yet.
Mindreaver jumped from Hardwood to TS pretty quickly and retracted his vote from Hardwood by saying "I guess RVS is over, so Unvote", when his vote on Hardwood wasn't an RVS vote. So I'm curious his reasoning for that.
"Vote you because you wasted my time". Come on dude, it's pretty clear that wasn't serious.
I agree with this statement; his play is genuine, remarkably similar to Ace Attorney where he flipped town, and his response to my interpretation of his post was natural and didn't show any paranoia or anything, also didn't attack me in response.
Hmm.
Quote from Proph »
Where in my RVS post did I come out as "way too polite"?
Your response of "I don't see where you are coming from" came off like you thought I was right, but just wanted understanding. The thought that I might be full of ***** didn't even register in your response towards me. I am not too worried about it yet, but merely an observation to store for later.
I kind of want him to actually post something of substance, though.
It's post 46. There are still people who haven't even posted yet, so asking for substance at this stage is strange.
Quote from Matowar »
@GJ: Get in here and talk about Ghosting.
His primary reason is that my speech feels genuine, and meta. Trying to meta me is a terrible idea, regardless of my alignment, but I don't really fault ghosting as he wouldn't know this. I would be more suspicious if someone like Proph/IMAB tried this. I am a bit paranoid he town cleared me so quickly, but he really hasn't hit any other bells other than that.
Quote from Ghosting »
I think you, Mato, and GJ are town.
That is a lot of town clears for < 100 posts. Why are you so focused on that, rather than trying to uproot scumspects?
That is a lot of town clears for < 100 posts. Why are you so focused on that, rather than trying to uproot scumspects?
I explained this in I think it was Ace Attorney, but I really find it helpful for me to "townhunt" just as much as scumhunt. That is, look for town just as much as I look for scum. They also by no means are cleared, they're just who I'm reading as town right now.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Prop-I've noticed through what you've said in multiple games that you think players should never express any doubt in a player's alignment nor mention anyone's actions as being troublesome without voting them? Why is that?
This is basically mafia theory stuff that I said to Ghosting, but: If you are town, your vote is one of the few weapons you have. As such, it would behoove you to use it as aggressively as possible. The more people who vote, the more scum are forced to vote and justify it. You unvoting, then not voting Kraj when you think Kraj is being opportunistic, smacks of being non-commital with your vote.
Quote from TS »
Me immediately voting Kraj for his bad vote on me doesn't actually do anything productive.
Why don't you think it's productive?
You think Kraj is being opportunistic with regards to voting you, which you state "isn't the towniest line of play". If you're town and you think he's scum, then obviously you want to vote him so that we can lynch scum.
If you want him to respond to you and follow up on your comments, then a pressure vote adds to that; see how Bloscovi and I are interrogating Ghosting, even though we're voting for him.
I can dig the explanation but I think the theory doesn't hold much water. This site is full of ridiculous mislynches which (IMO) stem from quick votes based on little reasoning and then holding those opinions. Then after the mislynch just "oopsies!"
It's important to produce sound and honest reads as soon as possible but the votes themselves aren't nearly as important. For example I see Bur, Hunt and new players constantly mislynched on this site without strong reasoning presented and many are happy to barn votes in these cases. For this reason I think snap voting isn't mandatory. You can do it, especially if you are a strong scum hunter, but to expect all players to do this is dangerous for the town.
Your response of "I don't see where you are coming from" came off like you thought I was right, but just wanted understanding. The thought that I might be full of ***** didn't even register in your response towards me. I am not too worried about it yet, but merely an observation to store for later.
Oh, okay. Not my RVS post, then - it was when I questioned you.
Quote from GJ »
It's post 46. There are still people who haven't even posted yet, so asking for substance at this stage is strange.
Hardwood had a lot of bookkeeping stuff in the first page or so and I kind of rolled my eyes at all of that. I wanted for him to post something that I could get an actual read on him.
Quote from TappingStones »
I can dig the explanation but I think the theory doesn't hold much water. This site is full of ridiculous mislynches which (IMO) stem from quick votes based on little reasoning and then holding those opinions. Then after the mislynch just "oopsies!"
It's important to produce sound and honest reads as soon as possible but the votes themselves aren't nearly as important. For example I see Bur, Hunt and new players constantly mislynched on this site without strong reasoning presented and many are happy to barn votes in these cases. For this reason I think snap voting isn't mandatory. You can do it, especially if you are a strong scum hunter, but to expect all players to do this is dangerous for the town.
OK, this is mostly just theory stuff once again/culture clash. I can see why you don't vote, but it's still strangely non-commital of you.
I'll just see what your responses are to the wagon against you, and try to determine your alignment that way. Fun!
Kraj and Mindreaver both have failed to point out a reason that I am scum. Kraj had the naked vote and apparantly felt that it wasn't important to justify his vote. Speaking of which @Proph0If you think voting is the most powerful thing someone can do then why wouldn't you be super interested why a vote didn't have a reason? Seems like your philosophy would expect some sort of reasoning to using the most important weapon.
Mindreaver any reasons that you are calling me scum I'm not seeing the point of your vote, you felt it was a safe place to be?
It's fairly obvious that Kraj was trying to test the waters for a wagon against me with his post after the vote on me. It doesn't read as something town would do. Town doesn't make posts that amount to "You guys want to go after TS?" It's a totally different mindset and one that might be hard for scum to guard against falling into because they do need to try and get town lynched. So there is that.
Argggh you more directly calling Kraj scum but not actually voting him bothers me.
I just saw Kraj's naked vote and assumed that it was testing for a reaction. You posted without reacting to Kraj's naked vote at all, so he explained his reasoning in #71, and doubled down. That reads as natural to me - if I was in Kraj's shoes, I would have taken the exact same approach as him.
I feel like you have the wrong scumhunting mindset, TS. You're reading Kraj's play and vote on you and asking yourself, "How is Kraj's play here scummy?" (Which you can always justify). You're not asking yourself "Is Kraj's play here scummy?" (Which can be yes, no, or anything in between).
I feel like you have the wrong scumhunting mindset, TS. You're reading Kraj's play and vote on you and asking yourself, "How is Kraj's play here scummy?" (Which you can always justify). You're not asking yourself "Is Kraj's play here scummy?" (Which can be yes, no, or anything in between).
Argggh you more directly calling Kraj scum but not actually voting him bothers me.
I just saw Kraj's naked vote and assumed that it was testing for a reaction. You posted without reacting to Kraj's naked vote at all, so he explained his reasoning in #71, and doubled down. That reads as natural to me - if I was in Kraj's shoes, I would have taken the exact same approach as him.
I feel like you have the wrong scumhunting mindset, TS. You're reading Kraj's play and vote on you and asking yourself, "How is Kraj's play here scummy?" (Which you can always justify). You're not asking yourself "Is Kraj's play here scummy?" (Which can be yes, no, or anything in between).
Why would you assume that? You are letting people off the hook with that mindset. Naked voting is a way for scum to play it safe because if finally they ever get questioned they just say "Derp, I was ahhh, waiting for a reaction".
In terms of not voting him it seems like your mindset is totally backwards. I have asked Kraj to answer me and also asked for his last site game. I have never played with this person before. Throwing out a vote is doesn't do anything. If he ignores me I will vote for him to apply pressure.
You also didn't address my last comment about the site tendency to run up players without reasons especially on day one.
Kraj and Mindreaver both have failed to point out a reason that I am scum.
...
Mindreaver any reasons that you are calling me scum I'm not seeing the point of your vote, you felt it was a safe place to be?
Just splitting that up for the pieces relevant to me.
I'm saying your my only lean either way, and I prefer to let my vote go with my suspicions. My point is that your position on the "Why did you claim James Bond?" can't come from a town mindset. The only benefit from answering that question would be to scum. That's my reasoning. If I'm wrong, you've got plenty of time to convince me. But "you've failed to point out a reason" isn't going to do it, when I've told you exactly my reason. It isn't even complicated.
If I said I wanted Ghosting, Tapping, Kraj, and Not A Gimmick all dead, what would your immediate, instinctual response be? The literal first thing that comes to mind, don't think about it.
I feel like you have the wrong scumhunting mindset, TS. You're reading Kraj's play and vote on you and asking yourself, "How is Kraj's play here scummy?" (Which you can always justify). You're not asking yourself "Is Kraj's play here scummy?" (Which can be yes, no, or anything in between).
Crediting this to ZDS btw, if he ever reads this.
This I can vote on! VOTE:Proph You blatantly misrepped me here and seem to be trying to apply pressure on me without actually voting me (something that you say you don't like others to do).
I never said anything along the lines on "How is Kraj's play here scummy?" I saw behavior that is anti-town (naked vote, plus testing the waters). I have in fact read the posts assuming Kraj is town and also assuming Kraj is scum. There still isn't a clear conclusion but I pointed to the parts that jumped out on me as being not from a town mindset. That is the exact opposite of "How is Kraj's play here scum?"
Now I at least have something to work with if I at some point get knocked off. We have at least two instances of non-town mindset interacting with me.
I have seen naked voting a lot in my mafia career. I have done it often, as town and scum. Taken at face value, it's completely null.
You're trying to assign a scum motive for it, without considering the townie side of things.
As for the site tendency, it's a bit IIoA/theory but here goes.
In terms of Day 1, the central goal should be to gather as much information as possible. If you lynch a scum, sure, great - but the important thing to remember is that the goal should be to solve the game. Day 1 has the potential for the most information in the entire game - you can look at the wagon of the dead town player, you can see who committed to it, see whose votes were being useless as the Day 1 lynch occurred - all that good stuff.
It's why I want you to vote - so that information is on record, and can be analyzed later in the game to help determine your alignment. Sure, people can vote quickly with little reasoning and then hold those opinions, but IMO that's an unfair representation of the MTGS meta. There is still a lot to analyze, such as conviction, who just hopped on the wagon, who was in opposition to it, etc.
Let me know if I didn't actually address your question, I kind of covered a ton here that's mostly theory/not relevant to the gamestate at large, but I think it's helpful to know.
Quote from Bloscovi »
If I said I wanted Ghosting, Tapping, Kraj, and Not A Gimmick all dead, what would your immediate, instinctual response be? The literal first thing that comes to mind, don't think about it.
"That's one scum and three probable town, dead."
Though upon rereading your post, you said that you wanted them dead, instead of pulling out a four-barrelled gun and shooting them all yourself - but that was my immediate thought when I read your post.
Kraj and Mindreaver both have failed to point out a reason that I am scum.
...
Mindreaver any reasons that you are calling me scum I'm not seeing the point of your vote, you felt it was a safe place to be?
Just splitting that up for the pieces relevant to me.
I'm saying your my only lean either way, and I prefer to let my vote go with my suspicions. My point is that your position on the "Why did you claim James Bond?" can't come from a town mindset. The only benefit from answering that question would be to scum. That's my reasoning. If I'm wrong, you've got plenty of time to convince me. But "you've failed to point out a reason" isn't going to do it, when I've told you exactly my reason. It isn't even complicated.
Can't come from a town perspective? Even Kraj who is voting me said he say the town mindset in that question. There actually isn't a scum motivation to ask that question. From my point of view James Bond is likely one of our big power roles. I suppose there are some roles where Bond would be safe to claim on day one maybe he has something cool like the first time he would die it redirects some sort of evasion plus counter attack flavor? Even so I think it would be best to at least let the game develop a bit first.
Could be a VT trying to create value for us down the road but that would risk a possible counter-claim and maybe things spiral out of control and we have a mislynch. It's just a ton of WIFOM. No one else has volunteered their role so it's absolutely worthy of discussion.
not_a_gimmick: Trying to solve the game. I've used similar language before in one of his posts (my first solid townread) as town.
Kraj: I see how Kraj is scumreading TS and his reasoning is solid. I don't necessarily agree with it, but so far he's done what I would have done in his shoes (if I thought Tapping was scum). No read yet, but if I had a gun to my head I'd say town.
TappingStones: I was going to ask you for help on this read, incidentally!
I came into interacting with him having a light scum read and came out of it with a light town read. Can't fully articulate it (most of it is gut) but I feel like he's actually thinking about the game, plus I think he believes what he says.
not_a_gimmick: Trying to solve the game. I've used similar language before in one of his posts (my first solid townread) as town.
Kraj: I see how Kraj is scumreading TS and his reasoning is solid. I don't necessarily agree with it, but so far he's done what I would have done in his shoes (if I thought Tapping was scum). No read yet, but if I had a gun to my head I'd say town.
TappingStones: I was going to ask you for help on this read, incidentally!
I came into interacting with him having a light scum read and came out of it with a light town read. Can't fully articulate it (most of it is gut) but I feel like he's actually thinking about the game, plus I think he believes what he says.
That part doesn't bother me. I think I was in this exact same conversation about Hans in the very beginning of day one in Stargate. He claimed immediately and I asked why he would do that? Several people tried to run me up(didn't work) and we eventually backed off that angle. Not sure if you remember that.
No, I'm saying I don't have a problem with you agreeing with kraj's methods. it checks out with your previous games where i've heard you have this same kind of discussion with people. Second point was that I've also been in this same kind of discussion before when I asked very early "Why the hell is he claiming right now?" and some people agreed with me that it's strange and others said "only scum would say that". So kind of deja vu.
Hi guys. Maybe don't speculate about my role anymore.
I am James Bond. That is all you need to know, and that is all I'm going to tell you.
It would also be nice if you all stopped attacking one another's playstyle and tried to go a little deeper, but that seems too much to ask.
Not everyone approaches this game the same as you, and arguments like this make it easier for scum to hide.
Given that you 'could say the same' about Kraj, would you mind explaining this townread further? I don't see it.
I like the way hes thinking about the game. Its not a major townread, but its a good sign.
He stood out more than the other two because kraj has 4 posts and prophylaxis diluted his good posts by allowing himself to be drawn in to dumb arguments.
Tell me, what has been your most succesful way of catching scum?
Hi guys. Maybe don't speculate about my role anymore.
I am James Bond. That is all you need to know, and that is all I'm going to tell you.
It would also be nice if you all stopped attacking one another's playstyle and tried to go a little deeper, but that seems too much to ask.
Not everyone approaches this game the same as you, and arguments like this make it easier for scum to hide.
Given that you 'could say the same' about Kraj, would you mind explaining this townread further? I don't see it.
I like the way hes thinking about the game. Its not a major townread, but its a good sign.
He stood out more than the other two because kraj has 4 posts and prophylaxis diluted his good posts by allowing himself to be drawn in to dumb arguments.
Tell me, what has been your most succesful way of catching scum?
Can't come from a town perspective? Even Kraj who is voting me said he say the town mindset in that question.
Did you just defend yourself using the opinion of your scumread?
Some really strange questions floating around here. If I was confident enough to call him scum he would have a vote on him or a finger of suspicion. Some players do things I consider untowny every game. Examples being Tom, Hunt and Hans. I'm not going to (always)run them up for lynch just because we play the game differently. Which coincidentally seems to be what you are conveying to Prop. For him to not get caught up in that kind of sub-game(right?).
When I say, "Hey, that's not something town does" my statement demands justification for something I'm having trouble reconciling. One of the ways I try to keep from mislynching is to remember that town players do strange things, sometimes as town we just speak out without really thinking about it because we have nothing to hide. Scum plan what they say and think about how it will end up. As said, I disagree with proph that you need to throw your vote out right away, you certainly can, but it's often a mistake.
On a side note I'm at home now after a long work weekend and free to dig deeper into this day one. I'm creating some notation later tonight. Feel free to engage.
I have seen naked voting a lot in my mafia career. I have done it often, as town and scum. Taken at face value, it's completely null.
You're trying to assign a scum motive for it, without considering the townie side of things.
This nicely sums up my problem with TS's play, and his entire reaction to the pressure on him has been OMGUS, with flimsy or inconsistent logic. I've also seen scum implode to pressure on less evidence than this on day 1. If it were later in the game and I had made a full case on him and strongly felt he's scum, then I'd dismiss his defense as desperate flailing and push for his lynch. However, time and time again I've seen townies - particularly on day 1 - get stuck in the mindset that anyone attacking them must be scum because the only thing they know for sure is they are town. In fact, I just finished a game Manders ran on DiesToRemoval as scum and used that exact reaction to push a case on a townie. That's the read I get off of TS here and I'm reasonably certain he's town.
Unvote
Regarding my play history, I semi-retired years ago and only join a game once in a while. Return to Amistaria might be the most recent town game, and Cyberspace the scum game. I can easily name older, more memorable games if you want. I earned a town MVP in my very first game, Mushroom Kingdom, and in Inheritance. I pulled off a miracle mafia win in Fairytale mini, and as a wacky neutral in Sword of Truth. More?
Also, why do you ask?
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It's only thing in his post that grabbed my attention at all, really, because it's in stark contrast to the rest of it.
Well.
The only thing other than the brain melting emoticons, rather.
Misread the name there.
UNVOTE
I swear I'm American. But I live in China so there is that...
@Not a gimmick-Why would you claim to be James Bond immediately? You like WIFOM or something? Whoever has that role must have a lot of power and I don't get why you'd throw it out there for scum so quickly.
I missed the name of the guy I was voting for. That's a little too sloppy for me, even around RVS. Slowed it back down a bit. Let's hear a response.
I assume the "slowdown" is also why you didn't revote the correct player?
I understand your confused reaction at the James Bond claim. It's a natural, townie reaction to wonder why on earth a townie would do such a thing. Why didn't you give any thought to why a scum would? What does "trying too hard" mean?
On one hand you're confused about why NAG would claim the name in the game for no apparent reason and think through the reasons aloud. On the other hand, you're confident enough that it's either "fake" and "trying too hard", or a "terrible move", and you vote. The reasoning is flimsy, and the "lying or playing badly" accusation is a false dichotomy scum love to use. Combine that with the sloppiness of getting the name wrong, and the backpedaling 'slowdown', it looks a lot less like trying to figure the situation out and a lot more like fear of James Bond.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
I mean, to be fair you naked voted me. With only flimsy reasoning to work with. I don't think it's likely to be a good move for a character who flavor wise is very likely to be powerful to spew that he's James Bond for no (apparent) reason. But I did at least ask others in case I was missing some line of play.
But let's talk about you, why naked vote me? I mean isn't your vote important enough to at least provide reasoning? And then a follow up that appears to be an attempt to "test the waters" if others will follow up on your vote. The opportunistic nature of such a play isn't the towniest.
@Prop-I've noticed through what you've said in multiple games that you think players should never express any doubt in a player's alignment nor mention anyone's actions as being troublesome without voting them? Why is that? Me immediately voting Kraj for his bad vote on me doesn't actually do anything productive. I've noticed you knocking heads with several players who ended up being town with this kind of discussion. I think you also asked me this same question in my last town game with you though I'll have to take a look for it.
By your logic I should vote this person based on one thing I found to be untowny. If others followed suit the games would be full of mislynches...oh wait, that's MTGS mafia! = p
The means of your argument doesn't support the end. Your premise is that because I said I don't like reads without reasoning, my logic is flawed due to not figuring out your alignment. In reality, there is zero correlation between the two: I explained why I thought GJ was town, with my own reasoms, and made sure to explain those. I'm not sure what your alignment is and have no real obligation to know it so early or in order to guess other people's alignments.
I'm at work but will reply more later, off soon hopefully.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Or maybe I thought about it a lot and have excellent reasons for claiming.
It's probably one of those two.
Bloscovi showing some solid thought process that seems townie to me. Could say the same about kraj and prophylaxis, but he has stood out the most.
I think the current scumreads on ghosting/tappingstones are more based on their personalities than anything game relevant. Both are null.
Maybe a microscopic scum lean on ghosting for thinking paranoia is scummy.
Still liking my vote where it is.
Bolded.
How am I being "uber defensive" of my playstyle? I literally go "I see why you think it, other people have too, this is kind of just the way I play." If anything, it was the exact opposite of uber defensive. I just don't understand the necessity to exaggerate. Can you explain why you did?
Additionally, why do you care specifically that GJ addresses me?
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
You think Kraj is being opportunistic with regards to voting you, which you state "isn't the towniest line of play". If you're town and you think he's scum, then obviously you want to vote him so that we can lynch scum.
If you want him to respond to you and follow up on your comments, then a pressure vote adds to that; see how Bloscovi and I are interrogating Ghosting, even though we're voting for him.
He's currently a null read for me at the moment.
I understand that voting aggressively can circumstantially benefit town, but there's plenty of situations in which it is harmful to the player voting aggressively, the player being voted aggressively, and the town itself. It isn't a black and white issue, as awesome as that would be.
I tend to think discussion is our best tool.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
What are your views of the gamestate so far?
The only read I've got here, is TS. If NAG's claim was false, that's such a huge risk claiming it in the 7th post of the game, before 12 people could chime in. If it was a false claim, there should be a counterclaim, OR NAG took a risk that James Bond wouldn't be in the game at all.
As far as why somebody would claim a well known character, I'd have to have some faith that there was a plan there. Which I'm fine indulging for now (and I don't feel like giving the scum team any info on this). If NAG gets himself killed, that's on him. But clearly the assumption would be that James Bond HAS to be town, right?
So it's a little strange that none of this would be apparent to you TS. Yet you're doggedly pursuing his reasons. I don't like it. I don't have half the experience you do, and I can think of at least two reasons to claim exactly as NAG has.
YOU'RE SUSPECT
Vote TS
I think you, Mato, and GJ are town.
Mindreaver jumped from Hardwood to TS pretty quickly and retracted his vote from Hardwood by saying "I guess RVS is over, so Unvote", when his vote on Hardwood wasn't an RVS vote. So I'm curious his reasoning for that.
TS always is hard to read for me so I'm not sure where I stand on him, typically I find he reads very natural as town.
Hardwood seems town.
Also, I'm liking how analytical everyone seems so far. And active. But then again, it's the beginning of the game, and it's always that way at first lol.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
He thought you were faking the claim then proposed a vanilla town NK theory which was "trying too hard." "Seems fake to me." is tied together with "vanilla eat a night kill trying too hard" and "very powerful role" is tied together with "would town do that?" I have a hard time believing a townie would post those 4 in THAT order.
I'm mostly interested in the paranoia part of the statement but can't speak from experience. When, in your experience, does paranoia traits begin to emerge in a game? Right after RVS?
Back to being adamant with the "this isn't james bond theory and has a lot of power from flavor-gaming."
I agree with how wishywashy the statements are but don't believe this is a natural, townie reaction as I described above. I believe it is a natural error by scum.
Countering flimsy reasoning with flimsy reasoning? Also someone help me out with what exactly a naked vote is (blind vote). Because if it's a blind vote, doesn't that contradict flimsy reasoning? Flimsy reasoning is still a reasoning albeit maybe wrong.
I think if TS is scum, NaG is town. The conversation between them doesn't ring buddies to me at all.
unvote
vote TappingStones
It's not the pressure I mind. It's the fishing expedition to conceivably force NAG to say something that would help the scum team more than town. There isn't a town mindset that would call attention to a suspected town member taking this stand (I'm JB, come at me). What's the town motivation? "He's James Bond and I need to know exactly what he's doing". Why? Is the claim unbelievable? No. Is it an auto-clear? No. Do I need to know exactly what his plan is? Not yet.
"Vote you because you wasted my time". Come on dude, it's pretty clear that wasn't serious.
Hmm.
Your response of "I don't see where you are coming from" came off like you thought I was right, but just wanted understanding. The thought that I might be full of ***** didn't even register in your response towards me. I am not too worried about it yet, but merely an observation to store for later.
It's post 46. There are still people who haven't even posted yet, so asking for substance at this stage is strange.
His primary reason is that my speech feels genuine, and meta. Trying to meta me is a terrible idea, regardless of my alignment, but I don't really fault ghosting as he wouldn't know this. I would be more suspicious if someone like Proph/IMAB tried this. I am a bit paranoid he town cleared me so quickly, but he really hasn't hit any other bells other than that.
That is a lot of town clears for < 100 posts. Why are you so focused on that, rather than trying to uproot scumspects?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I explained this in I think it was Ace Attorney, but I really find it helpful for me to "townhunt" just as much as scumhunt. That is, look for town just as much as I look for scum. They also by no means are cleared, they're just who I'm reading as town right now.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Prophylaxis (1): Hardwood_Paneling
Hardwood_Paneling (2): Matowar77, not_a_gimmick
Jobie (1): Kraj
Ghosting (2): Prophylaxis, Bloscovi
TappingStones (3): Kraj, Mindreaver, Brinatoo
With 16 alive, it takes 9 to lynch.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I can dig the explanation but I think the theory doesn't hold much water. This site is full of ridiculous mislynches which (IMO) stem from quick votes based on little reasoning and then holding those opinions. Then after the mislynch just "oopsies!"
It's important to produce sound and honest reads as soon as possible but the votes themselves aren't nearly as important. For example I see Bur, Hunt and new players constantly mislynched on this site without strong reasoning presented and many are happy to barn votes in these cases. For this reason I think snap voting isn't mandatory. You can do it, especially if you are a strong scum hunter, but to expect all players to do this is dangerous for the town.
What's your reasoning for Hardwood?
Oh, okay. Not my RVS post, then - it was when I questioned you. Hardwood had a lot of bookkeeping stuff in the first page or so and I kind of rolled my eyes at all of that. I wanted for him to post something that I could get an actual read on him.
OK, this is mostly just theory stuff once again/culture clash. I can see why you don't vote, but it's still strangely non-commital of you.
I'll just see what your responses are to the wagon against you, and try to determine your alignment that way. Fun!
Mindreaver any reasons that you are calling me scum I'm not seeing the point of your vote, you felt it was a safe place to be?
It's fairly obvious that Kraj was trying to test the waters for a wagon against me with his post after the vote on me. It doesn't read as something town would do. Town doesn't make posts that amount to "You guys want to go after TS?" It's a totally different mindset and one that might be hard for scum to guard against falling into because they do need to try and get town lynched. So there is that.
I just saw Kraj's naked vote and assumed that it was testing for a reaction. You posted without reacting to Kraj's naked vote at all, so he explained his reasoning in #71, and doubled down. That reads as natural to me - if I was in Kraj's shoes, I would have taken the exact same approach as him.
I feel like you have the wrong scumhunting mindset, TS. You're reading Kraj's play and vote on you and asking yourself, "How is Kraj's play here scummy?" (Which you can always justify). You're not asking yourself "Is Kraj's play here scummy?" (Which can be yes, no, or anything in between).
Why would you assume that? You are letting people off the hook with that mindset. Naked voting is a way for scum to play it safe because if finally they ever get questioned they just say "Derp, I was ahhh, waiting for a reaction".
In terms of not voting him it seems like your mindset is totally backwards. I have asked Kraj to answer me and also asked for his last site game. I have never played with this person before. Throwing out a vote is doesn't do anything. If he ignores me I will vote for him to apply pressure.
You also didn't address my last comment about the site tendency to run up players without reasons especially on day one.
Just splitting that up for the pieces relevant to me.
I'm saying your my only lean either way, and I prefer to let my vote go with my suspicions. My point is that your position on the "Why did you claim James Bond?" can't come from a town mindset. The only benefit from answering that question would be to scum. That's my reasoning. If I'm wrong, you've got plenty of time to convince me. But "you've failed to point out a reason" isn't going to do it, when I've told you exactly my reason. It isn't even complicated.
@Prophylaxis
If I said I wanted Ghosting, Tapping, Kraj, and Not A Gimmick all dead, what would your immediate, instinctual response be? The literal first thing that comes to mind, don't think about it.
This I can vote on! VOTE:Proph You blatantly misrepped me here and seem to be trying to apply pressure on me without actually voting me (something that you say you don't like others to do).
I never said anything along the lines on "How is Kraj's play here scummy?" I saw behavior that is anti-town (naked vote, plus testing the waters). I have in fact read the posts assuming Kraj is town and also assuming Kraj is scum. There still isn't a clear conclusion but I pointed to the parts that jumped out on me as being not from a town mindset. That is the exact opposite of "How is Kraj's play here scum?"
Now I at least have something to work with if I at some point get knocked off. We have at least two instances of non-town mindset interacting with me.
You're trying to assign a scum motive for it, without considering the townie side of things.
As for the site tendency, it's a bit IIoA/theory but here goes.
In terms of Day 1, the central goal should be to gather as much information as possible. If you lynch a scum, sure, great - but the important thing to remember is that the goal should be to solve the game. Day 1 has the potential for the most information in the entire game - you can look at the wagon of the dead town player, you can see who committed to it, see whose votes were being useless as the Day 1 lynch occurred - all that good stuff.
It's why I want you to vote - so that information is on record, and can be analyzed later in the game to help determine your alignment. Sure, people can vote quickly with little reasoning and then hold those opinions, but IMO that's an unfair representation of the MTGS meta. There is still a lot to analyze, such as conviction, who just hopped on the wagon, who was in opposition to it, etc.
Let me know if I didn't actually address your question, I kind of covered a ton here that's mostly theory/not relevant to the gamestate at large, but I think it's helpful to know.
"That's one scum and three probable town, dead."
Though upon rereading your post, you said that you wanted them dead, instead of pulling out a four-barrelled gun and shooting them all yourself - but that was my immediate thought when I read your post.
Keep doing so, let's get that vote on record.
Okay now that my fullclaim is done...
I have no idea who the character in my avatar is, nor do I know the story behind it.
Can't come from a town perspective? Even Kraj who is voting me said he say the town mindset in that question. There actually isn't a scum motivation to ask that question. From my point of view James Bond is likely one of our big power roles. I suppose there are some roles where Bond would be safe to claim on day one maybe he has something cool like the first time he would die it redirects some sort of evasion plus counter attack flavor? Even so I think it would be best to at least let the game develop a bit first.
Could be a VT trying to create value for us down the road but that would risk a possible counter-claim and maybe things spiral out of control and we have a mislynch. It's just a ton of WIFOM. No one else has volunteered their role so it's absolutely worthy of discussion.
Are those your scum reads?
I'll say at least one of them is a scum read. I'm sure you can tell which one.
(Spoiler: I'm voting for the one I'm talking about)
The non-Ghosting reads, rather.
Kraj: I see how Kraj is scumreading TS and his reasoning is solid. I don't necessarily agree with it, but so far he's done what I would have done in his shoes (if I thought Tapping was scum). No read yet, but if I had a gun to my head I'd say town.
TappingStones: I was going to ask you for help on this read, incidentally!
I came into interacting with him having a light scum read and came out of it with a light town read. Can't fully articulate it (most of it is gut) but I feel like he's actually thinking about the game, plus I think he believes what he says.
That part doesn't bother me. I think I was in this exact same conversation about Hans in the very beginning of day one in Stargate. He claimed immediately and I asked why he would do that? Several people tried to run me up(didn't work) and we eventually backed off that angle. Not sure if you remember that.
Quote the wrong post or something?
No, I'm saying I don't have a problem with you agreeing with kraj's methods. it checks out with your previous games where i've heard you have this same kind of discussion with people. Second point was that I've also been in this same kind of discussion before when I asked very early "Why the hell is he claiming right now?" and some people agreed with me that it's strange and others said "only scum would say that". So kind of deja vu.
I am James Bond. That is all you need to know, and that is all I'm going to tell you.
It would also be nice if you all stopped attacking one another's playstyle and tried to go a little deeper, but that seems too much to ask.
Not everyone approaches this game the same as you, and arguments like this make it easier for scum to hide. I like the way hes thinking about the game. Its not a major townread, but its a good sign.
He stood out more than the other two because kraj has 4 posts and prophylaxis diluted his good posts by allowing himself to be drawn in to dumb arguments.
Tell me, what has been your most succesful way of catching scum? Illegitimi non carborundum Not at this time. I'd like to see a little more from him to see if its just one of those things. Did you just defend yourself using the opinion of your scumread?
Some really strange questions floating around here. If I was confident enough to call him scum he would have a vote on him or a finger of suspicion. Some players do things I consider untowny every game. Examples being Tom, Hunt and Hans. I'm not going to (always)run them up for lynch just because we play the game differently. Which coincidentally seems to be what you are conveying to Prop. For him to not get caught up in that kind of sub-game(right?).
When I say, "Hey, that's not something town does" my statement demands justification for something I'm having trouble reconciling. One of the ways I try to keep from mislynching is to remember that town players do strange things, sometimes as town we just speak out without really thinking about it because we have nothing to hide. Scum plan what they say and think about how it will end up. As said, I disagree with proph that you need to throw your vote out right away, you certainly can, but it's often a mistake.
On a side note I'm at home now after a long work weekend and free to dig deeper into this day one. I'm creating some notation later tonight. Feel free to engage.
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
This nicely sums up my problem with TS's play, and his entire reaction to the pressure on him has been OMGUS, with flimsy or inconsistent logic. I've also seen scum implode to pressure on less evidence than this on day 1. If it were later in the game and I had made a full case on him and strongly felt he's scum, then I'd dismiss his defense as desperate flailing and push for his lynch. However, time and time again I've seen townies - particularly on day 1 - get stuck in the mindset that anyone attacking them must be scum because the only thing they know for sure is they are town. In fact, I just finished a game Manders ran on DiesToRemoval as scum and used that exact reaction to push a case on a townie. That's the read I get off of TS here and I'm reasonably certain he's town.
Unvote
Regarding my play history, I semi-retired years ago and only join a game once in a while. Return to Amistaria might be the most recent town game, and Cyberspace the scum game. I can easily name older, more memorable games if you want. I earned a town MVP in my very first game, Mushroom Kingdom, and in Inheritance. I pulled off a miracle mafia win in Fairytale mini, and as a wacky neutral in Sword of Truth. More?
Also, why do you ask?
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.