With that all said, I'm going to honor your playstyle and we can let the rest of the players determine how they feel about our posts. I understand it's littering the thread and I am fairly confident enough has been said by both of us for players to analyse. I just feel like that's what you want, it all just brushed under the rug, so you can rely on people having to sift through too much or too much old info and be able to make these kind of posts.
I don't like how in the space of 2 hours Silver changed his read of Blos/Hunt from null to lean town. Especially towards Blos it feels like buddying up to avoid pressure after a loaded-gun question. Also just now liking Blos's wagon after asking only one question regarding it is too suspicious. Unvote
Vote Silvercrys
@Blos: Of the mindreaver/silver/ghosting wagons, what do you think would be the most beneficial on interactions alone aside from scumhunting? We still have plenty of time but if deadline was now- that scenario.
Why wouldn't it be the same for me? I have not been a fan of that slot (including after Silver replaced in), why does it have to just be buddying towards Blos?
I got the exact opposite impression. In what world does townHunt post with such clarity? Did he just get a lot more analytical in the span of one RL week? No, it doesn't read as a real townHunt post.
Why can't I improve? Am I supposed to play every game the same in your eyes? Sometimes I like to derp around and do jack ***** (something you should be VERY familiar with Seppel). Sometimes I like to actually play. Not to mention I said I was going to actually start trying a little... why do you WANT to paint me into a box with your (not very accurate) meta read?
There was a "deck of cards" themed game where Hunt was scum and I said something like "when did you get this smart?" I liked his posting so much that even when he botched his claim, I still believed he was town. I was wrong, and I've learned to expect disappointment when Hunt is town.
It probably would have been better to just...not claim that? Especially if you ramp up activity, you could draw a night kill with higher degree of probability than draw an item stealer.
Can you explain why you went this route rather than just try to eat a kill? Or even two?
I've noticed a trend where if I lie about my ability, it gets me lynched more often than not. When it doesn't, it helps win the game. But it turns out "getting lynched" happens more often than winning. My win rate has tanked in the past two years.
Also, if we can hook up our item stealer with this item, we can totally rock this game.
I didn't botch my claim in Full Deck. It was the reason why I lasted so long. The two mistakes I made that game was 1) Killing your brother and 2) Believing your lying ass. If I had just killed Manders' hubby I would have been fine.
Revisionist history aside, you are correct that you made the comment about me sounding smarter in that game. I was the SK, by the way, not Mafia... but there was only Iso as mafia in that game anyway. Ocean and I were Neutrals.
Which brings me to my point. You lie as town or scum. Why would anyone believe your claim this game?
@Bloscovi - What do you think about PoE as a scumhunting tool? Also, did you read any of Mistborn?
TS is town. I do not see a bit of difference in his style. I don't agree with his reads but I don't usually.
What is YOUR read on TS?
How does a question like "How are you feeling" shed light on one's alignment?
Do you feel like you are helping scum hunt, or just trying to look busy?
1. I asked about TS because in your first post you had some pretty conflicting views. You went out of your way to defend him, but then said that his behavior was a null tell. Then you say you have a town lean and put the ownus on everyone else to prove to you that he is behaving differently, which reads like more than lean. Also, if his behavior is a null tell, I'm having a tough time reconciling how people proving he is behaving differently carries any weight and how you can have both of these thoughts in the same post. It sort of feels like you know he is town and are using weak reasoning to clear him, but threw the null tell bit in there to be able to have an out in case someone else puts forth a good case against him. If you just think he is most likely town, and took the time to defend him, why would you say that is a null tell? It makes your entire defense seem like hot air.
2. Why are you asking the same question that Proph already asked? My answer is in the above to Proph, but why did you feel it was your place to ask this here and what did you hope to gain by asking me if I thought I was scumhunting? On top of that, you too have played with me enough to know that I probably have a reason.
This has been niggling me about your posts, you keep doing this thing where you stick your nose in places/re-ask questions not for you/barn things without actually providing any of your own insight. I don't remember if that's something that you do as town normally, but I don't like it. You ask if I'm trying to look busy, but that's how I feel about these one-liners I have been noticing form you. Like, what did you think you were gaining there?
What you are trying to paint as conflicting seems to me more like evolving... My read got clearer and I did put the ONUS on others in order to show me where they thought TS was acting different than his normal self. It's true that the meta defense amounts to a null tell, but I made a point to mention it because at that point I felt a lot of time was going to be wasted trying to question and push TS in a way that I have been doing for a few months now. So, I stepped in to tell people what I thought about it. TS' towniness has only gotten clearer over time to me.
The proph question was an odd question, and I was reacting to the odd phrasing. Correct, you PROBABLY have a reason. It's not 100% sure though. Asking the question gets you to the point quicker.
All of this post just looks like you trying to smear me for junk reasons. I would love for you to point out where I "stuck my nose in places." I have been asking my own questions and scumhunting. I tried to assist with a meta read on TS. I'm not sure where you think I haven't provided insight, because I have gone out of my way this game to be vocal and thoughtful... to the point where that's Seppel's stupid case on me. lol I mean the fact that you are trying to argue the opposite makes little sense, and I think you are just trying to make me look bad through flimsy reasoning.
Anyway I'm going to have to spend a bunch of time rereading the past two pages 0.0
I didn't really expect this D1 Shame the only thing I can claim is freedom I feel slightly upset that someone gets to be neutral and the super awesome main character too, but I've only been in games with neutral sk's so I don't know how this is gonna work out
So, does that mean you trust the claim, don't trust the claim, want them to die because they are neutral, or are okay with keeping them alive?
2) Is my wagon better than the earlier ones on TappingStones and Mindreaver?
3) Who's your top scum read?
It'd be cool if you gave us a T/S list, too.
1. Will have to read it carefully, but I thought your vote on Seppel was for a better reason than his vote on you.
2. Define "better". But considering those two wagons are the ones I was on, probably not.
3. Seeing as how I'm voting Mindreaver... That said:
So early on NAG comes out and claims James Bond and TS in particular doesn't understand why a Townie would do such a thing. Possible reasons other than " because its awesome" are pure speculation, but what is certain is that NAG does not fear a mafia NK.
Then GJ, whom I and several others read as town and (iirc) was under no pressure, claims neutral lover w NAG. I believe him. Notably, he assumes NAG is also neutral, meaning Iso intentionally did not confirm the lover's alignments to each other. Unless I missed it, GJ did not claim his role name, but when someone said Natalya he didn't deny.
Seppel then claims Boris, a character that flavor-wise should obviously be mafia. Again, he does this unprompted and his reasoning makes sense, and I'm inclined to believe him.
The role PM 'fiasco' further reinforces that the mod is blurring alignment lines.
I am a Siberian Guard and am vanilla town, though I do have an item. Flavor-wise my expectation for a Russian guard would be mafia goon.
So we have an obvmafia character as town, a generic bad guy as town, an obvtown character as neutral lover with an ambiguously aligned James Bond as a partner.
So why would James Bond claim during RVS without fear of a mafia NK? Because the mafia know from their collective roles that alignments don't all match flavor, but NAG assumed we would never lynch James Bond, especially with lover status.
unvote, vote: not a gimmick
I really like this post. Well reasoned with a good amount of insight into the role pm mud. I am not a total fan of the Nag vote at the end, but I can at least see where Kraj got it from. IS there any other way that this could shake out Kraj? Any other people that could end up being the scum?
Others can do so as well, but hold off until at least 1-2 of those do it, please.
Rather, I encourage everyone to read it and form an opinion, but don't necessarily post it yet.
He confirms, then sits in RVS for what looks like a couple posts... Then moves onto his Tunneling of TS. He eventually comes out of it and moves onto Mindreaver, which is where I was too, and then lastly moves to NAG. I don't agree with several of the places Kraj ended up, but his reasoning looks solid, his mind seems fluid (aside from his trying to wrap his mind around TS which took a bit) and he has been moving his vote when necessary. The biggest thing that stood out to me was in the Mindreaver vote post where he talked about how Mindreaver was on a "dead" wagon and a "stalling" one, as in my experience townies don't often watch for wagons like that until after flips. That was the only scummy thing I saw.
I'm feeling a bit better about Ghosting. He seems genuinely frustrated and the OMGUS came after an extended period of trying to reason with him first.
I also would like to see Hunt come back. I was already leaning scum on him and his lurkiness isn't helping.
I'm not lurking, I was legtimately gone for a few days, and came back right away to post. These are the smears I am talking about man. Plus the fact that I am getting called a lurker by you is just not cool...
@Hunt-How likely do you think it is that Bloscovi is bussing Ghosting? I'd appreciate you having a look at their interactions. He seems very sure that Ghosting "knows" GJ isn't scum...to me that also seems to imply that Blos knows as well. Reading Blos seems like he is hard-bussing and Ghosting is trying to copy his AA meta.
Ghosting is very likely scum, yes, but I'm not bussing him.
Look at it both ways - both the way I'm treating him, and the way he's treating me. You're focusing on the former exclusively.
Scum never comes back to the game after being away, sees a buddy voting them with functionally being the only pressure on them, and reacts the way he has with a near single-minded fervor. They'd dismiss it, ignore it, or attack back hard.
He's doing some weird thing where he's obviously frustrated, but it feels like frustrated scum who was caught for the wrong (or no) reasons.
Check out post #629, and if you have the time/inclination, check out the game linked. One of the reasons I'm staying locked on Ghosting the way I am is how much he reminds me of Baramur, that I caught on day one of that game. The same kind of frustration over being caught, but for reasons they don't think are valid.
You'll also see Proph treating me the way he is this game, if that will help sort out your concerns with our interactions.
I don't like meta.
I didn't want to drag meta into this.
But Proph kind of ruined that by treating me like...me, instead of just a random player. So I guess meta is relevant to explain why.
Ghosting is very likely scum, yes, but I'm not bussing him.
Look at it both ways - both the way I'm treating him, and the way he's treating me. You're focusing on the former exclusively.
Scum never comes back to the game after being away, sees a buddy voting them with functionally being the only pressure on them, and reacts the way he has with a near single-minded fervor. They'd dismiss it, ignore it, or attack back hard.
He's doing some weird thing where he's obviously frustrated, but it feels like frustrated scum who was caught for the wrong (or no) reasons.
Check out post #629, and if you have the time/inclination, check out the game linked. One of the reasons I'm staying locked on Ghosting the way I am is how much he reminds me of Baramur, that I caught on day one of that game. The same kind of frustration over being caught, but for reasons they don't think are valid.
You'll also see Proph treating me the way he is this game, if that will help sort out your concerns with our interactions.
I don't like meta.
I didn't want to drag meta into this.
But Proph kind of ruined that by treating me like...me, instead of just a random player. So I guess meta is relevant to explain why.
I hear ya. The thing is I just got done playing with GHosting where he was getting run up in a similar manner and defended himself EXACTLY the same way. In Ace Attorney mafia, he was town and Meggido (who was scum) was tunneling him in a similar manner to you. So that's where I'm at. So I wouldn't mind if you would at least continue to engage with him so we can flesh this out. I caught onto Meggido and that might be why I'm quick to feel the same way about you. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't have my heart set on killing you, but I do want people to start fleshing out their arguments more.
I will check out that game, as I did with Twinborn when I checked out Proph. But you should really see what meggido and Tom did to Ghosting just pathetic tunneling on town.
I posted earlier how my read on GJ was not super strong, but I posted it looking for a certain kind of response that would indicate likely scum.
I do acknowledge there's a slim chance that I fell into a confirmation bias trap, where he responded in the way I was expecting scum to respond.
But I really don't think he makes that exact post as town, based on the content GJ provided before that post. I just don't. It feels like he just kept tacking more words on to justify the town read that he only had because he knew GJ wasn't scum with him.
Does that make any sense, or do I need to be more clear?
I'll respond to the Brinatoo stuff and the Kraj stuff and what I was looking for, once I'm able to really sit down and go back through game.
Most of what I was looking for with the Kraj thing is who would try to genuinely figure out his alignment vs. who was just going through the motions to placate town that asked them a question. I'm not sure if I got anything strong out of it, but I want to parse the replies more when I have time.
I posted earlier how my read on GJ was not super strong, but I posted it looking for a certain kind of response that would indicate likely scum.
I do acknowledge there's a slim chance that I fell into a confirmation bias trap, where he responded in the way I was expecting scum to respond.
But I really don't think he makes that exact post as town, based on the content GJ provided before that post. I just don't. It feels like he just kept tacking more words on to justify the town read that he only had because he knew GJ wasn't scum with him.
Does that make any sense, or do I need to be more clear?
No, that's clear enough.
What do you think about Proph's lack of scum hunting? How can we win if people all say they want to "town hunt"?
This is theory, but strong town reads are the best thing you can have in mafia, arguably even better than a strong scum read. Because it limits the avenues scum can take. It means there's less people to push on, and closes the walls in around them, narrowing them down into a box.
Scum that start to feel trapped make mistakes. They panic.
Read that game I linked earlier, actually. That's kind of a picture perfect example of how town hunting is insanely effective. There were like 7-8 strong, consensus town reads on day one, leaving the scum nowhere to go. So two of them lashed out with emotional, out of game responses and it kind of turned into a crapfest of accusations and anger, but it does showcase the value of finding town reads you are sure of.
If you have 10 town reads, and you are town, that leaves 5 players left. With 3-4 scum in the game, it becomes really difficult NOT to lynch scum in that case.
I initially thought Proph was bussing Ghosting, but I don't think he has the balls to try and convince me out of the read the way he did with the 'what do you think of Ghosting's question post', if he's scum with Ghosting. I think he just doubles down and pushes, because he respects me enough that he thinks I'll get my way eventually.
I struggle to see Proph scum if Ghosting is Town, too, though, because it'd be such a weird line to take. There's not much in way of motivation or malice, he's just...being lazy. And I think it's probably town lazy, though not as sure as I'd like to be.
Bloscovi I keep reading your posts and thinking "oh my gosh whoever posted this is so town, let's see who it is... Oh goddammit it's Bloscovi again. So much for getting another townread."
Frustrating.
Can you quote/link posts that gave you this feeling?
My initial reaction was 'I mean, duh, of course you read my posts as town, because I'm obviously town', but.
I'm apparently not obviously town. To everyone, at least.
Bloscovi I keep reading your posts and thinking "oh my gosh whoever posted this is so town, let's see who it is... Oh goddammit it's Bloscovi again. So much for getting another townread."
Frustrating.
Can you quote/link posts that gave you this feeling?
My initial reaction was 'I mean, duh, of course you read my posts as town, because I'm obviously town', but.
I'm apparently not obviously town. To everyone, at least.
With that all said, I'm going to honor your playstyle and we can let the rest of the players determine how they feel about our posts. I understand it's littering the thread and I am fairly confident enough has been said by both of us for players to analyse. I just feel like that's what you want, it all just brushed under the rug, so you can rely on people having to sift through too much or too much old info and be able to make these kind of posts.
You could compile your questions and post them and then I'll repost them and ask him them. That gets around his restriction.
Bloscovi I keep reading your posts and thinking "oh my gosh whoever posted this is so town, let's see who it is... Oh goddammit it's Bloscovi again. So much for getting another townread."
Frustrating.
Can you respond to #624?
Also, your townread of Blosc sounds incredibly crafted. Let's get some elaboration, why does he read so incredibly town to you? Do you feel that his behaviour is inherently town as well, or simply his alignment?
That second question doesn't make any sense. Of course his behavior is incredibly town, and that makes his alignment town. Also just try to read that above post out loud and try to make it sound scummy. You just can't. Everything is so natural and full of deep thought and a desire to solve the game. That's incredibly hard to fake.
@Hunt-How likely do you think it is that Bloscovi is bussing Ghosting? I'd appreciate you having a look at their interactions. He seems very sure that Ghosting "knows" GJ isn't scum...to me that also seems to imply that Blos knows as well. Reading Blos seems like he is hard-bussing and Ghosting is trying to copy his AA meta.
I think it's less likely a situation where Bloscovi is bussing Ghosting. I was nervous about Bloscovi early, but he has really redeemed himself through fleshed out reads. I am nervous about Proph' buddying of Bloscovi so damn blatantly, that has me scratching my head. Ghosting could for sure be scum, and I think Bloscovi feels confident he caught him (for the wrong reasons or not). Proph could certainly be the one bussing, and would be MORE likely in my mind. I do think a good argument can be made that Ghosting is trying VERY hard to copy his AA meta, and then uses this as his defense. I agree with you that Ghosting should not be the lynch today.
Can you help me with Hunger's smear campaign against me? What do you think the reason is he is engaging this way?
@Hunt-How likely do you think it is that Bloscovi is bussing Ghosting? I'd appreciate you having a look at their interactions. He seems very sure that Ghosting "knows" GJ isn't scum...to me that also seems to imply that Blos knows as well. Reading Blos seems like he is hard-bussing and Ghosting is trying to copy his AA meta.
I think it's less likely a situation where Bloscovi is bussing Ghosting. I was nervous about Bloscovi early, but he has really redeemed himself through fleshed out reads. I am nervous about Proph' buddying of Bloscovi so damn blatantly, that has me scratching my head. Ghosting could for sure be scum, and I think Bloscovi feels confident he caught him (for the wrong reasons or not). Proph could certainly be the one bussing, and would be MORE likely in my mind. I do think a good argument can be made that Ghosting is trying VERY hard to copy his AA meta, and then uses this as his defense. I agree with you that Ghosting should not be the lynch today.
Can you help me with Hunger's smear campaign against me? What do you think the reason is he is engaging this way?
@TappingStones:
Bloscovi - if he's a good lynch because he's hard bussing, Ghosting is at least as good. I'm also feeling a bit better about him after his posts on the last page.
Proph - I don't think he's aligned with Blos and earlier you said if Blos flipped scum you thought Ghosting was more likely to be scum with him than Proph. Are you just that interested in flipping one of them?
Kraj - Looked town to begin with then threw a vote on NaG because of flavor gaming. Has a couple of people giving him town reads recently. I'm not sure he's done anything scummy either.
Crystal - oh, that's me. Mind sharing your reservations with the rest of the class?
Mato - easily the easiest lynch remaining Today, he's not even really here. Makes me wonder why scum aren't pushing him for the mislynch (if he's town).
So, yeah. Out of your lynch options I'd be ok with a Mato lynch but I don't think he's the best choice in terms of information. We'll get his wagon and not much else.
@Everyone:
I should be starting those PBPAs within the next hour or so, and I'll throw up another T/S list when I'm finished with them (which might not be until this evening).
I agree with you that Ghosting should not be the lynch today.
Can you help me with Hunger's smear campaign against me? What do you think the reason is he is engaging this way?
I don't think there is anything particularly out of line with what Hunger said about you. Hunger may think he's found something. It did feel lurky when you disappeared, but considering so few people are active it isn't a case in and of itself.
Any idea why Hunger asked you the random question near the beginning of the game? it seems a little out of place to me.
@TappingStones:
Bloscovi - if he's a good lynch because he's hard bussing, Ghosting is at least as good. I'm also feeling a bit better about him after his posts on the last page.
He's a good lynch because of the strange company he keeps. The "Proph Partnership" plus the potential "Ghosting Bus" are juicy in and of themselves. Nice flip to analyze. He definitely raises eye-brows with some of these interactions and it will be a juicy set of interactions to analyze.
Proph - I don't think he's aligned with Blos and earlier you said if Blos flipped scum you thought Ghosting was more likely to be scum with him than Proph. Are you just that interested in flipping one of them?
Read above^^ Proph barning all of Blos and tunneling Ghosting just comes across so scummy to me. His interactions with Blos coupled with how much time he spent babbling about theory are all warning bells for me.
Kraj - Looked town to begin with then threw a vote on NaG because of flavor gaming. Has a couple of people giving him town reads recently. I'm not sure he's done anything scummy either.
I think he's been hiding out and I do hunt lurkers.
Mato - easily the easiest lynch remaining Today, he's not even really here. Makes me wonder why scum aren't pushing him for the mislynch (if he's town).
Disagree that he's the easiest choice. He's the easiest one to run up and that's what I'm scared of. I lead an attack on him in AA that was a mislynch. He played like "Tomsloger" which is an instalynch on the site. Last couple posts have been super shaky.
So, yeah. Out of your lynch options I'd be ok with a Mato lynch but I don't think he's the best choice in terms of information. We'll get his wagon and not much else.
Not happy with any of the others? Wow, I hope you have a nice list of potentials because Blos and Proph, etc are only picking one person today and that guy isn't getting lynched.
Not happy with any of the others? Wow, I hope you have a nice list of potentials because Blos and Proph, etc are only picking one person today and that guy isn't getting lynched.
To reiterate:
1) Blos - Flip for interactions and because Proph is buddying him if I read that right.
2) Proph - Clearly has not been tunneling Ghosting. He's expressed misgivings on a Ghosting lynch several times. Here's one: #411. The only reason he's still on Ghosting is because he trusts Blos.
3) Kraj - We won't get much info from an analysis of his interactions either. I guess I'd be ok with a Kraj lynch, but like Mato he isn't the best option. You're basically trying to get him policy lynched (if you push his wagon).
4) Me - obviously I don't want lynched but I don't blame you for suspecting HWP.
5) Mato - that's what I was saying. The easiest lynch == The easiest to run up. It's curious that scum aren't trying to push his wagon, but we still have over a week so maybe they'll try a little closer to the deadline. Please note I didn't say "he's the easiest choice for the lynch," but clearly out of the people on your list he is the least helpful and has the least number of people vouching for him.
What's the difference between Seppel and Proph saying "we don't want to lynch Blos" and you and Hunt saying "we don't want to lynch Ghosting"? There's 16 players and we only need 9 to lynch. I don't think anyone is absolutely off the table and we need to consider both who is likely to flip scum and who will give us the most information to solve the game Day 2.
Anyway I'm going to have to spend a bunch of time rereading the past two pages 0.0
I didn't really expect this D1 Shame the only thing I can claim is freedom I feel slightly upset that someone gets to be neutral and the super awesome main character too, but I've only been in games with neutral sk's so I don't know how this is gonna work out
@Matowar:
1) Give us a T/S list, please.
2) Thoughts on Bloscovi, Proph, Ghosting, and Hunger when you get caught up?
3) Why so lurky? You're not V/LA but you're waiting like two days between posts. Are you trying to avoid getting mislynched or are you trying to avoid scum slipping?
[quote from="TappingStones »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/700341-goldeneye-mafia-day-1-frigate?comment=664"]
What's the difference between Seppel and Proph saying "we don't want to lynch Blos" and you and Hunt saying "we don't want to lynch Ghosting"? There's 16 players and we only need 9 to lynch. I don't think anyone is absolutely off the table and we need to consider both who is likely to flip scum and who will give us the most information to solve the game Day 2.
You can read the myriad of things I've said about Proph. And I called him scum and voted him long before my recognition of the Blos buddying.
In regards to your other question, like I have to take a stand on my reads and my own feelings (with considerations toward everyone's arguments). I gave a list I feel best about going after, Blos gave a list earlier as well, there's a bit of carry over but truth be told each player with have at least a slightly different list, some vastly different, and some folks are scum so not sure what to tell you.
I actually want to go back and remember what kind of things were claimed already. I remember Seppel claimed but I'm not sure what his abilities mean because I've never heard of that role and I think 1-2 others full claimed. I know this is flavor but with the secret agent theme I'd think there would be a lot of sneaky stuff happening at night.
Day two should be really fun to analyze, hopefully after a scum flip.
I agree with you that Ghosting should not be the lynch today.
Can you help me with Hunger's smear campaign against me? What do you think the reason is he is engaging this way?
I don't think there is anything particularly out of line with what Hunger said about you. Hunger may think he's found something. It did feel lurky when you disappeared, but considering so few people are active it isn't a case in and of itself.
Any idea why Hunger asked you the random question near the beginning of the game? it seems a little out of place to me.
It appears he believed that I was "inconsistent" in my position on you. But like I responded, I was just solidifying my thought process on you. It was very out of place actually, along with his other questions... They didn't appear to serve much of a purpose aside from being questions for questions sake... No matter how I answered he was going to spin what I said against me it seemed.
In regards to your other question, like I have to take a stand on my reads and my own feelings (with considerations toward everyone's arguments). I gave a list I feel best about going after, Blos gave a list earlier as well, there's a bit of carry over but truth be told each player with have at least a slightly different list, some vastly different, and some folks are scum so not sure what to tell you.
I understand, I was just giving my thoughts on your list. If I had to push a lynch right now it'd probably be Ghosting. I agree with Blos's criticism that he's not actively scum hunting. It feels more like flailing because Blos won't budge on his scum read and he can't stand being scum read by even one player. But I'll save my other thoughts for the PBPA.
Day two should be really fun to analyze, hopefully after a scum flip.
Agreed. I actually really, really hate Day 1 because it feels slow and has such a high probability of a mislynch, but it's too important for getting information later on. Day 2+ is where the game starts to get interesting.
I'm actually going to agree with Seppel and add that I feel Blosc may very well be doing what Tom was in AA, rather than Megs/Iso. Regardless of what the case is, I know he isn't getting lynched today, and that there's very little discussion between us that is benefiting town; I'm also beginning to think scum wouldn't play like this.
Also, Blosc's comment about strong town reads makes me think I know who he is.
I'm working all day today and tomorrow morning, so I won't have much substance until tomorrow night, but will post what I can.
Mato - easily the easiest lynch remaining Today, he's not even really here. Makes me wonder why scum aren't pushing him for the mislynch (if he's town).
This is the strongest argument I've heard in favor of lynching Matowar. Consider my vote on him.
@Kraj, Proph, Brinatoo, Hunger Pick a number 1-25, there is likely a wrong answer, but there may not be a right answer. If you do not respond within your next two posts you will be voted for.
17?
Also, what is your view of Ghosting and the two players who are voting him (Proph, Bloscovi)? It's sort of been a major issue over these past couple of pages, and I'm eager to hear your input.
Quote from Brinatoo »
I still think TS is scum and I'll likely get to pointing other peoples posts tonight or tomorrow (satirically) to generalize my opinion on the situation. I think the meme that I could use to describe it is "playing chess with a pigeon." Look it up. To be brief on what that post will contain, I don't like meta-clearing people, it's too forgiving/easy to write someone off. Others have pointed out things that would lean town on him because of the meta while I beg to differ. Also the backlashing I'll agree could go either way and is null. Blos pointed out something recently where my head is that he is posting things to appear town. (#504) For Silverscrys, no- I'm back to null because his posts match with how I'm viewing his mindset. Could still be scum but my loose prodvote didn't spawn anything and I haven't seen anything change since with how he posts. unvote I think the bolding isn't working and idk why, seems this curse client is frustrating.
Heh, I did look up. What an appropriate meme!
Thanks for responding to me and giving me an update on your mindset, however.
Quote from Bloscovi »
I wanted to keep meta out of this entirely, but the way Proph has treated me this game makes it functionally impossible to do so.
Huge apologies for doing that, btw. I know you wanted to play the game under a gimmick but I kind of spoiled the broth on that.
@Ghosting: Do me a favor - can you talk about some people other than Bloscovi for a moment? All I've seen from your posts is defending and trying to attack Bloscovi when it would probably be more prudent to ask others questions and such.
Quote from Bloscovi »
You are fixing almost solely on me, and on defense, and doing very little to generate reads on any other player.
/barn this.
Huntzilla/Kraj probably not scumbuddies together.
Quote from Bloscovi »
I initially thought Proph was bussing Ghosting, but I don't think he has the balls to try and convince me out of the read the way he did with the 'what do you think of Ghosting's question post', if he's scum with Ghosting. I think he just doubles down and pushes, because he respects me enough that he thinks I'll get my way eventually.
I wanted to ask you that, by the way, because it would be something that if you weren't here, would cause me to unvote Ghosting and look somewhere else. I'm just trying to understand the differences on how you and I evaluate posts.
Quote from Huntzilla »
Proph could certainly be the one bussing, and would be MORE likely in my mind.
If you think I am bussing, why don't you hop on Ghosting's wagon and help me get him lynched?
Quote from Silvercrys »
@Everyone:
I should be starting those PBPAs within the next hour or so, and I'll throw up another T/S list when I'm finished with them (which might not be until this evening).
I just wanted to say that you've been a stellar replacement so far - you're active, competent, engaged, and breathing new life into the game. Thanks!
Proph could certainly be the one bussing, and would be MORE likely in my mind.
Also, by the way, how did you shift from a "strong town read" on me to the scum read on me you have now? I mean, we did have this exact problem in Twinborn where I posted the Romney picture, but I still would like to hear how you changed your read on me. It always just reads as very inconsistent to me.
Proph, I know I've primarily been defending myself and talking about Blosc, but I've asked three other players questions in between there. Just wondering if you missed that or are purposely ignoring it. :s
At work now though so my posts can only be short ones like this.
You claim to be against reads without reasoning, and yet you parroted my town read of GJ, without trying to figure out why I thought he was town, or determine my alignment. Reconcile this.
This puts me in a conundrum. He's trying to strengthen his scum read on Ghosting by pointing out that Ghosting isn't even trying to determine his alignment.
Putting myself in Matowar's shoes, Matowar here is mostly reporting observations about the game at large. What's interesting here is that while Matowar is kind of indecisive about most of his reads, "doesn't seem to be wrong on GJ" implies that Matowar has a townread on GJ. This can indicate that Matowar is just agreeing with Ghosting with respect to GJ, or Matowar knows GJ's alignment.
I'm inclined to think it's the former, though? I don't think Ghosting/Matowar are buddies with how Matowar just carelessly agreed with one of Ghosting's reads, and so if Ghosting flips scum here, I think Matowar is town. So yeah, unaligned pairs and stuff.
Did I miss anything/what's your view? I didn't even notice that phrase when I read through Matowar's post, so I'm interested as to why it grabbed your attention.
It's only thing in his post that grabbed my attention at all, really, because it's in stark contrast to the rest of it.
Well.
The only thing other than the brain melting emoticons, rather.
Doesn't share his read of Mato's post. Seems frustrated by Mato's use of emoticons, which could be either town frustration or scum lightly coaching him to back off on them because they're suspicious.
If I said I wanted Ghosting, Tapping, Kraj, and Not A Gimmick all dead, what would your immediate, instinctual response be? The literal first thing that comes to mind, don't think about it.
I'll say at least one of them is a scum read. I'm sure you can tell which one.
(Spoiler: I'm voting for the one I'm talking about)
Reiterates that Ghosting is one of his scum reads. Actually, I don't know if he ever answered TappingStones about why he picked those four, though I will speculate that he was more reaction fishing on Proph than he was scum reading all of them.
I'd like you to explain why you have the reads on those players that you do, maybe.
The non-Ghosting reads, rather.
Yep, I think he was reaction fishing Proph. For context, Proph answers him then asks him for help reading TappingStones and Blosc doesn't answer. Probably just got lost in the shuffle seeing as this is his next post:
I tried to read through, but I have a headache, and TappingStones' posts make me want to put a bullet into my temple.
Frustration with TappingStones' posts feels genuine. I would think if Blosc was scum he would try to push the TS wagon here (unless he's just really, really invested in bussing Ghosting).
I have trouble believing that a Town!TS has these reads.
I'm not fully caught up, just skimming through on phone while I prepare for a barbeque this afternoon, but these reads are almost polar opposite to mine.
Proph is very probably town, Brinatoo is a decently strong town read, and I think Ghosting spewed GJ clear as town.
I'll be doing a full re-read to catch up this evening likely, since life has kicked me in the balls the past week, and I don't have my finger on pulse of game, but these reads just stand out to me in terms of sheer contrast to my own.
I guess it'll be my objective to try and figure out which of the three reasons for that it is.
(Namely: 1. Tapping is town and wrong. 2. I am wrong. 3. Tapping is scum. I guess 4. Tapping is scum, and I am wrong, is also possible, but that seems to be the least likely world)
I will go into more detail on my early game thought process and why Ghosting is scum when I can post more in depth, but for now it's time to grill enough meat to clog my arteries properly.
Small catch up. I haven't seen anything overtly scummy in this iso yet.
Off the top of my head? IMAB, Mindreaver, Huntzilla. I have leaning town reads on Proph and TS.
I will post more, but I also want to take it easy. I am a little wary that too many people like me, so I am just going to claim now. I am a neutral lover who can with either team, and since I have no actual alignment, I am inclined to believe my partner doesn't either.
This actually helps my peace of mind a lot.
I've been trying to reconcile the way Ghosting town read you (I think he's very likely to be scum for it, but is never scum WITH you), with the fact that I haven't been getting town feelings from your posts in a vaccuum.
---
I believe the claim, and do not want him lynched or vigged unless numbers end up dictating it down the road. Scum in his position (generally town read, or at least under no real pressure) does not claim survivor in the way he did here.
Defends GJ's neutral claim, but doesn't explain why he thinks GJ and Ghosting are an unaligned pair. Regardless, I think GJ's neutral claim is pretty widely accepted. If Blos is scum, the last part of this post is very weird. He would actually want town to waste a vig on GJ, and would wait until night chat to tell his scum buddies not to bother night killing him. But then the last part of the post almost makes it look like he's trying to score towncred for GJ. I think if Blos flips scum this is worth looking at again.
Gut feeling: I think Hunger is very likely to be scum.
Reasoning: I have a ton of light town reads, and simply by virtue of comparison (he's true null) he looks pretty bad.
---
IMAB is obviously anti-town in behavior, and it's frustrating, but I don't want to lynch him. If I had a dayvig, he'd already be dead, mind you.
(Unless I caved in to the desire to kill Tapping for reasons not remotely related to my thoughts on his alignment)
My problem with IMAB is the warring WiFOM thought process behind his behavior.
1. Scum wouldn't be so brazen.
2. Yeah, but he knows scum usually wouldn't act this way, so it's an easy way to play it.
He strikes me as the type of player who is generally pretty anti-town as town, but also strikes me as the type of player who absolutely would straight up claim that they'll be lurking and take conversation off on unrelated tangents as scum, to cheekily rub their alignment in the threads' face.
I don't really know how to reconcile that, because I learn nothing from interacting with him (or even watching others futilely try to interact with him). I just want him dead, eventually, no matter what.
Says Hunger is probably scum based on statistics, which I agree with. Says he doesn't want to lynch IMAB, but then says he wants him dead eventually. This might just be a reflection of the fact that he seems to be thinking while he's typing – He doesn't want to lynch him, considers the WIFOM, then wants him dead eventually but wants Ghosting dead first.
You looked at that early interaction between Myself, Proph, Ghosting, and TCM.
Take a closer look at it.
I did not have a strong town read on TCM - it's nothing I could articulate, just a vague 'I don't really think he does this as scum', but I threw it out there to generate reactions.
I acknowledge I might be falling into confirmation bias, though, where Ghosting gave me exactly the kind of reaction I'd expect scum to give me. Well, one of the two reactions.
I was looking for someone that either:
1. Fought with the town read out of principle, rather than seeking understanding.
or
2. Someone that agreed with the town read in a manner that showed they knew that he was town.
Ghosting over-explained the town read in a way that feels like he just made things up to justify the town read. It's too many words - too much justification, for what little TCM had said to that point. I don't think it's possible for a town member to have that kind of depth in a read based on the content TCM had.
So it was a case of Ghosting seeing me calling TCM probably town, and jumping in to go 'Why yes, fellow town member, congratulations on identifying another town! Hah hah.'
Maybe not quite that awkward. But close.
He addressed me like he knew I was town, who had a town read on someone that he knew was town.
I want him dead for it.
Readdresses his Ghosting scum read. I find myself agreeing more with his posts and I can't really fault Proph for /barning him when they both agree.
I'm acknowledging there are some questions outstanding directed at me, but I don't have time to get to them right now.
Just taking advantage of being awake (if pretty hung over) at 5 am to post a little bit.
If people would re-state any questions that'd be radical, though.
I don't really want to have to carefully re-read to find them.
The entire reason I'm playing in this game is because it needed one more slot to fill, so I'd be relatively low effort to make the game happen.
(I say relatively low effort, because my definition of low effort and IMAB's definition of low effort are apparently pretty different)
I'm not sure how to read this post. Probably null, he's just commenting on his own state of mind when approaching the game. Almost feels like he's more engaged now then he was when he wrote this.
I don't even want to re-read this game let alone read another game.
Dammit Sepple.
(I'll probably take a look at it in next day or two, but I stand by the fact that I don't think town has that much to say about TCM being town based on the amount of content he'd generated to that point)
(Also, Seppel is very probably town for 352. I don't he posts that so blase-ly if he's scum with Ghosting, or without)
Says he'll consider Ghosting's meta, then never mentions it again.
He's wrong, but town. Unless he's very, very good at faking conviction as scum.
@TappingStones
Let's try a thought exercise.
Pretend Proph and myself are both mod-confirmed town, publicly.
What does that mean for the gamestate, and the Ghosting wagon, in particular?
Literally no other person has expressed any interest in the wagon, or Ghosting, despite two town being the only people pushing it.
Granted, a large chunk of the game isn't exactly playing, admittedly.
Like. In this world (Proph/myself town), who is scum? What are they doing? If you could kill three people in that world, who would you kill to have the highest chance at killing multiple scum?
He's trying to get TS to scum hunt instead of tunneling him. Also trying to determine TS's alignment.
Also, I can't speak for Proph, but the over-explanatory thing isn't the reason I want Ghosting dead.
It's the fact that he talked to me like I was town, that he knew was town, calling TCM town, because he knows TCM is town.
TCM did not have enough content up to that point to warrant a read that is that in-depth.
You are functionally saying you expect people's playstyle and posting style to change just because their alignment changes. This is not true, generally. You need to look at the mindset behind the posts, rather than look for superficial similarities.
Reiterating his case on Ghosting. He's driving this wagon quite hard.
I'd let Proph try to explain why he's still voting Ghosting, but I acknowledge it's hard for him to do so, because it relies on information that isn't public.
He knows who I am. He's read probably 20 or so of my games, and played with me a good chunk. He places a very high level of respect on my accuracy. He also knows that I hate playing scum with a passion, and tend to bus aggressively on d1 and d2, because I struggle to call people that I know are town, scum, with any conviction. Being wrong has historically been a town tell for me on D1. I don't expect people to take that into account this game obviously. I signed up on a gimmick because I didn't want to put much effort into this game, or even want to play in the first place. I just figured I'd help Iso make the game fire (as I was the last signup), and do the bare minimum (which would still be more than 2/3 of the game).
I wanted to use it as a chance to try out a new playstyle where I was clipped, abrupt, and held my cards very close to my chest, to generate reactions. But that lost appeal and strength when I had life kick me in the balls via work and holiday, as I kind of lost the pulse on the game I needed to have for it to be effective.
But I'm rambling off tangent.
Proph is historically poor scum, who suffers from one critical issue as scum - he can't stay engaged with the game. He posts very infrequently, and has large posts with a lot of very carefully crafted content to help try and make up for it. But it always reads like he's forcing himself to post.
I don't get that feeling here. He's not necessarily a shining bastion of towniness, but it's a stark departure from his scum play, and much more in line with his early game town play. You can get meta confirmation in that regard from Seppel's #391.
Like, yes, yes, it's at least theoretically possible that Proph came into this game with the intent to try and put me into his pocket and get me to town read him via /barning me, and being as active as he can. But I don't think that's the case.
You're welcome to try and keep pressuring him, I just don't think it's going to remotely be a useful use of your time. He's not going to get lynched, because he's very probably town.
(Also, I really doubt scum Proph has the testicular fortitude to goad you and others into voting him the way he has)
A meta defense of Proph. I especially agree with his last point, as that was something I commented on before this post.
@Bloscovi - What do you think about PoE as a scumhunting tool? Also, did you read any of Mistborn?
I did not read Mistborn. I tend to only read games I either play in, or a good friend played in and asked me to read through to give critique.
Generally if I have enough time to read a game, I'd play in it instead.
PoE is one of the strongest tools town has at its disposal, if utilized properly. Prior to LYLO/MYLO, I don't really care all that much if we lynch town, as long as it is A) not a town read of mine, and B) the lynch helps me figure the gamestate out.
Looking back at the stances people take on flipped players is great, to evaluate how genuine their thought process is. I do acknowledge that every player can't use the same PoE playstyle I do, though, or the necessary interactions to analyse won't exist.
Discussing his play style. Overall a null post for examining his alignment, he could/would say the same things as scum.
@Bloscovi: You want to run Ghosting up because he agreed with you that GJ/TCM was probably town with not enough evidence to support his explanation?
Pretty much!
It's a case of having too much information. He knows I'm town, and he knew TCM was town (or at least not his buddy), so when he sees me call TCM probably town, he feels the need to agree with me, because I'm right.
I'm sure he over-explains things as both alignments, but the mindset the over-explaining has to come from doesn't feel like town to me. It feels like he /knew/ TCM was town, and he talked to me like I was town.
There was also no attempt to figure out my alignment for having the no-explanation read, given he said a few posts later that he hates reads/votes without reasoning.
He re-reiterates his Ghosting scum read for my benefit. Probably null overall though his tone here is pretty friendly/relaxed.
@Proph - About the "should have ended with a vote" thing. Do you mean Ghosting's #34? I'm willing to chalk that up to "it's still RVS and he isn't taking posts seriously yet."
That can be true, but at the same time GJ kind of ended RVS on post 20, so.
I dunno. It's just a gut feeling when I read that post. Unsure how strongly it means in terms of Ghosting's alignment. At this point, I just want him to post more so we can get a better read on him.
@Bloscovi:
1. What is your read on Mindreaver?
2. What do you think about this post by Ghosting? I'm trying to reconcile how I feel about his first couple of posts and this one, since I thought the questions he asked in this post were pretty good.
Mindreaver is a light town read for reasons I don't remotely remember. I'm not taking notes this game.
I think it's a perfectly reasonable post, but not especially an alignment indicative one.
Question for you:
I'm town. Scum would know I'm town. If Ghosting is town, why would scum completely ignore the wagon, given I've effectively been trying to drive it, and take responsibility for it? Does this make more sense in ghosting town worlds or ghosting scum?
The utter lack of traction it's getting feels weird to me, although a large part of that is because 75% of the game isn't really playing, admittedly.
Speculating on why the Ghosting wagon stalled. I have similar thoughts on the Matowar wagon – why would scum ignore the wagon? Do they think it's a trap? Maybe they're just trying to drag out Day 1 to fatigue town. Or one of them is scum and they aren't prepared to bus Day 1.
Bloscovi: Phone post here, but I'm thinking in Ghosting town worlds, the scum think the wagon is a trap, and don't want to go along with it. There's been a lot of posts saying stuff like "Ghostingn always acts that way" and if he is indeed town then scum may have warned each other not to get on the wagon.
Though it's difficult, just as you say, because most of the game isn't even playing, and I have a bunch of town reads. It's a bit worrying for me to clear like 9-10 names Day 1 in a game of 26 players, I feel.
I mean, yes, that's the case in ghosting town worlds, but that's not quite what I asked. I asked which world made more sense given how people are treating the wagon?
Continuing his thought process on Ghosting's wagon, he's trying to get Proph to take a stance one way or the other. This further solidifies my theory that they're an unaligned pair.
If I give you a gun, and you have to pick 3 players to hit 2-3 scum, or the game ends with a loss, which three players do you kill?
If I had to pull the trigger right now, I'd kill Hunger, Ghosting, and one of [Kraj, Matowar, Brinatoo, Mindreaver, Jobie] at random since I think they have equal chances of flipping scum. Hunger + Ghosting probably gives me one, hopefully the random kill gives me another. Puts my odds of not losing at 20% if Hunger or Ghosting is scum, which isn't great odds but it's better than Vegas.
Why Hunger, over someone else that hasn't posted much, like Jobie? You haven't mentioned him prior to this post, so what separates him in your mind?
Trying to get inside my head again and see where I'm coming from.
I'm not sure how much I/we can talk about Role PM's without crossing a line.
There's something I really want to ask, because I wasn't even completely positive I was town at first (except no scum team/link), but it probably crosses unwritten rules, even if Iso doesn't have them in the first post.
Expresses discomfort with modgaming but partial claims that his role PM didn't explicitly say he was town. On the one hand I want to give him town points for bringing up that he wasn't sure without being prompted, but on the other this kicked off the modgaming thing that sent the whole thread into a tailspin for a few pages.
We are both simply neutral it appears. The only lover varient I have seen aside from true neutral was one town, one scum, and they could still win with each other's team.
You were the mod for Famous Historical Figures, were you not?
Asks GJ about a game where, I assume, there was an unusual pair of lovers.
Instead of telling you why I think Brinatoo is pretty likely town, I'm going to link this, and ask you to tell me what you think his alignment is, based on it.
I have a reason for doing so, kind of.
I'll explain my read, and what I was trying to do, afterwards!
I don't think he's posted his thoughts on Brinatoo yet.
I don't like how in the space of 2 hours Silver changed his read of Blos/Hunt from null to lean town. Especially towards Blos it feels like buddying up to avoid pressure after a loaded-gun question. Also just now liking Blos's wagon after asking only one question regarding it is too suspicious. Unvote
Vote Silvercrys
@Blos: Of the mindreaver/silver/ghosting wagons, what do you think would be the most beneficial on interactions alone aside from scumhunting? We still have plenty of time but if deadline was now- that scenario.
Hum.
Probably Silver, though I can't really take my reads on the players in question completely out of the picture.
Because if he's town here, there is absolutely scum being opportunistic.
Like possibly in #430.
Seems amenable to a lynch on me based on interactions and wagon analysis. This looks town, too.
I'm mostly looking at it as a current snapshot, but future works too.
It's an 'easy' lynch. It could still be on scum! But I had a light town read on Hardwood, and am just vaguely uncomfortable with the push on Silver. There's been stuff he's done I don't like, but there's also stuff like straight up putting no scum reads in a town/scum list that I have trouble seeing scum in his position doing.
I think Ghosting is the most likely scum of the three names you listed, and Mindreaver the most likely town (by a significant margin).
Silver is somewhere in between, and I'm not completely sure where I think he is on the sliding scale yet. Just that he's the best answer to your question, because if he's town, the wagon is likely a magnet for scum, now and in the future.
Maybe less so now if the scum team is super heavily lurkers, I guess?
(My comment about possibly 430 was very knee jerk and instinctual. I had a solid town read on you for reasons I'll get into after Proph answers my post, but my instinctual reaction was 'Wow, that's...potentially really opportunistic')
I'm rambling a little bit, but the question isn't the most relevant thing either? You can't fully take alignment considerations out of the question this early in a phase, and I'm content with my vote on Ghosting for now, since I think he's scum.
Justifying his answers to Brinatoo's question. I'm having trouble reconciling scum!Blos with a lot of these posts now that I have him in iso and away from all the WIFOM.
It probably would have been better to just...not claim that? Especially if you ramp up activity, you could draw a night kill with higher degree of probability than draw an item stealer.
Can you explain why you went this route rather than just try to eat a kill? Or even two?
This seems like a genuinely town reaction, and it was the first thing I thought of too when I read Seppel's claim.
I'm slightly confused about your read on Hunt. I don't have much experience with him.
I liked a couple of his posts - they were fairly transparent, and I could track his thought process. It felt like he believed what he was saying, and it fit naturally with what he was reacting to. You think he's incapable of being competent as town, so that he has to be scum? Like. I really, really don't want to have to read other games, but I think I need a scum game/town game comparison from you that backs this up, because it sounds absurd.
Even given his displayed dislike for meta, he asks for Hunt games to compare to because he can't believe what he's hearing. I think scum!Blos might just ignore it instead of asking for homework.
Also, the post you quote as being ironic is missing context, if you click on the hyperlink going back to my original post. I asked TS to engage in a thought exercise where myself and Proph were modconfirmed town, to try and get him to re-evaluate (because I'm Town, and Proph is very likely town).
Without the context yes, it'd be hilarious in retrospect, but, y'know.
Context exists!
Explaining what he was doing in #395. Everything makes sense, he's not even throwing shade.
'Man. I have a ton of light town reads. Who even can be scum? Ghosting, of course, but like... Hunger? Jobie? Maybe Kraj? Hunger fits into a lot of scum worlds by default, I guess, simply by virtue of not being a town read of any form.'
So I posted about it.
There was no point in pushing you or voting you, given I think Ghosting is scum, and am voting him. And you'd have to play the game eventually, or get replaced, so...
There is no motivation in there, really. I had a thought. I posted it.
WRT to the Role PM thing, I don't think this is a good use of space, but I'll just say the word Town was not explicitly mentioned in it, so despite me being fairly sure based on the flavor and other things, I briefly considered if I was some kind of neutral.
I think this needs dropped though, because it feels against the spirit of the game, and feels like a rule Iso SHOULD have had in his opening post, but didn't.
Here's where the mod gaming really gets going. Blos gets town points from me for being the first to say Town wasn't explicitly mentioned in his role PM without prompting.
Curse is really obnoxious. I refresh, and posts still don't show up. I refresh a few minutes later, and they magically appear up above. What is this sorcery?
The other thing that is bugging me is that your posting style seems super familiar and I feel like your true identity is on the tip of my tongue, but I can't figure it out.
I'd rather people not publicly speculate on that though. I signed up on a gimmmick because I wanted to help this game fire, but did not plan to be as active and thorough as I usually am, regardless of the alignment I rolled.
I think meta would confirm that I'm town, but I'd rather people just view me through the lens of my posts and mindset this game.
Would prefer people didn't speculate on his main's identity. I understand why.
Nothing, really, except the near total lack of posting (not his fault). Kraj and Jobie have posted without really hitting me on their alignment one way or the other, so I figured Hunger and Ghosting have a better chance of flipping at least one scum over Ghosting and Kraj or Jobie.
Why do you think that there is a better chance of someone who hasn't posted of being scum than town?
I just feel like someone with almost zero posts has a better chance of being scum than two people who posted some and didn't seem particularly scummy or townie. Maybe I should reconsider, but I'm pretty sure that out of you, Ghosting, Jobie, and Kraj there's at least one scum if not two. I'm not saying you're scummy for not posting, exactly, I'm just playing the odds. This post is pretty strong, though.
And yeah, I'll partial claim for this. My role name says Town _____.
Made me wonder about the lovers, too, because they seemed confused about how to claim and whether or not they were town.
Bloscovi, would you be comfortable claiming whether you have a separate wincon? Not what it is, just if it exists.
If you don't, I'm even more confused at this point.
I don't have a role name, or a win condition listed,but I am definitely town.
I think I might be what classifies as Vanilla in this game possibly, which is why I'm just called a Good Guy, rather than Town.
Slips in his full claim here. My sole reservation is that I would expect a veteran Mafia player to be a little more vigilant against accidentally full claiming.
I guess it wouldn't be an Iso game, for better or worse, without the Mod trying to screw with the players for his own amusement.
Back to your regularly scheduled interacting.
Wants to end the modgaming and get back to actually playing. I think this is a town tell, because scum would have us mod game the whole Dday if they could – we'd end up speed lynching town at the end most likely.
I have stuff I want to talk about wrt him, but don't want to until you post.
If you have too many town reads and need to re-evaluate, looking at someone whose posts you haven't even read seems like the logical start.
He's trying to push Proph to actually do something. If he's scum, maybe he's coaching because Proph looks so suspicious for /barning him. I get the feeling that he's actually trying to get Proph to play though.
I think the only person I'm willing to give any degree of town read to out of this whole role PM fiasco is Silver.
Because if he's scum, he knows I'm town, and he does not come in as scum, when someone he knows is town is saying otherwise, and straight up claim his role is Town X.
Like, there's a tiny chance he has the balls for that if his role is Mafia X and he gambles, but I don't see it.
Anyone else it's relatively easy to hop on the 'Wow, yep, there sure is wackiness afoot!' bandwagon, so it's null.
Good reasoning with just a hint of suspicion at the end.
Ghosting I want dead. There's probably 2 scum in Hunger, Jobie, Kraj, IMAB.
This assumes 4 scum though. I guess I could see a 3-man scum team if our lovers are both neutral.
If I had to pick one semi-consensus town read who might be scum, I'd probably say Tapping.
Too many posts where it feels like he's being the Good Little Townie and trying to do what he thinks he should be doing. Combine this with his reads that were pretty different from mine, and the early game jumping on James Bond thing, and I could absolutely see him being a 'deep cover' scum.
I think it's more likely he's just kind of...unique town, though, so I don't really want to pursue it. It's just that niggling thought in the back of my mind that I don't want to dismiss completely.
Still has some paranoia towards Tapping. Still feels like town here.
Not going to have reliable access for a day or two starting in about oh. 2 minutes.
But hopefully the third of the game that isn't playing starts to play so I have something more interesting than the same 4-5 people talking to themselves to come back to.
Seems frustrated that there's so many lurkers still.
Yeah, it feels like this game is an echo chamber of townreads.
Gonna wait and see if Jobie/Kraj/Ghosting show up.
Or, you could put some work in looking at your light town reads.
Or Brinatoo.
If you try to coast I will make you dead.
This I was suspicious of, but his RVS vote on Proph was similar. I think he was joking (though maybe he would push a wagon on him for being lazy, I don't know).
As Proph said, that reasoning was not for you. It was in response to his hypothetical of 'if there is a deep cover scum, who is it, and why?' or such.
I want you dead because I don't believe that back and forth early game about TCM comes from town. It reads like you knew both TCM and I were town.
And the fact that I have town reads on everyone but 4-5 players makes me perfectly fine with keeping my vote on you. Even if you'd made zero posts this game you'd be likely scum due to that.
That's also kind of a misrepresentation of what I was saying, though.
I was saying I can see a world where Tapping is scum, and is trying a little too hard to be seen as town, rather than it being naturally occurring. That's entirely different from what you said.
Like, I'm reading the post of mine you quoted, and then reading your response and just going
???
I think he's saying that Ghosting misinterpreting his post is sort of a misrep? I can see that, but I'm glad he doesn't push that attack here because Ghosting seems to have just misunderstood.
I've talked about why I think you're scum a few times, you'll see it as you read through.
I don't really like engaging with people I think are scum, because I mean... I'm not going to convince you you're scum. I'll talk about my reads or your reads on any other player, but have no interest in discussing your alignment with you.
It really just boils down to it reading like you saw me town read TCM, and you went 'Wow, well done fellow townie on identifying that fellow town of ours!'
Especially given you said a few posts after that you hate reads with no reasoning.
There was too much depth to the read on TCM for it to come from town given the amount of content TCM posted.
(There's also the fact that your wagon has generated zero traction, despite me effectively taking full responsibility for it. If you were town, why are scum not going 'Hm. Yeah, I can see your point, this seems like an okay direction to go)
Now he's re-re-re-reiterating the case, but this is mostly prompted by Ghosting. I think Blos would be perfectly content if he never talked abut his scum read of Ghosting ever again, and Ghosting just keeps pushing him.
That's also kind of a misrepresentation of what I was saying, though.
I was saying I can see a world where Tapping is scum, and is trying a little too hard to be seen as town, rather than it being naturally occurring. That's entirely different from what you said.
Like, I'm reading the post of mine you quoted, and then reading your response and just going
???
to be honest I think Blos choosing me in that spot is a fairly natural response for paranoid town. I had no problem with it at all. I would hope that if it came down to it that he would actually try to lynch someone based on reasoning though and not something like TS is trying to hard to win the game. I mean it's a little silly to suggest that me playing hard to win, which I'm known to do is somehow now scummy. I bet I'm likely to do it as either alignment because I think being active is not only the best way to find scum but the best way for the other players to understand you better.
If you're scum the more you post the more likely you are to slip as you need to craft so much of your writing. Introspectively I think if I was scum I would try to post enough so that people thought that I was being normal but not so much that I'd be likely to blunder away the role. Moving along.
@Blos-What do you think about Proph saying he feels lazy this game but every post of his is a barn of you or something against Ghosting? Are you guys wed at the hip? Do we have two pairs of "lovers"?
You misunderstand. I'm not saying you playing hard is scummy.
I'm saying that some of your posts feel like there is more sizzle than steak, maybe? Like, if I tilt my head, I get the vibe that you're posting some of your posts to make yourself look town, rather than it being a natural post that you'd make as town. It's hard to articulate, but it's an over-arching feel I've gotten from some of your play that isn't strong enough for me to want to pursue it, but it's still there.
With regards to Proph, it's kind of unfortunate, and it makes reading him a pain in the ass, but being lazy and falling off from strong starts is something Proph does. As both alignments.
And is why he repeatedly gets mislynched.
I don't think he's a good lynch or even pressure target day one though. The key is just going to be to track his engagement and effort as the game goes on, and how he responds to new information/flips being presented.
I'll be up front and say my read on him isn't as strong as I may indicate, but I don't think he's someone that an accurate read will be formed on by pressuring him, because he kind of implodes as either alignment.
I'm mildly annoyed at the 'Wow, this game sure is an echo chamber' while attempting to do nothing to change that fact, as well as dodging the request to talk about Brinatoo, but they're lazy tells rather than scum tells.
Realistically it's probably a /town/ lazy tell, because I feel like as scum he'd put in a token effort rather than just admit that he's being lazy. Perception, and such.
Meta defense of Proph again. Being mostly unfamiliar with both of them, I'm inclined to take him at his word (but with a pinch of salt and dose of paranoia).
I've talked about why I think you're scum a few times, you'll see it as you read through.
I don't really like engaging with people I think are scum, because I mean... I'm not going to convince you you're scum. I'll talk about my reads or your reads on any other player, but have no interest in discussing your alignment with you.
It really just boils down to it reading like you saw me town read TCM, and you went 'Wow, well done fellow townie on identifying that fellow town of ours!'
Especially given you said a few posts after that you hate reads with no reasoning.
There was too much depth to the read on TCM for it to come from town given the amount of content TCM posted.
(There's also the fact that your wagon has generated zero traction, despite me effectively taking full responsibility for it. If you were town, why are scum not going 'Hm. Yeah, I can see your point, this seems like an okay direction to go)
Why aren't you considering that scum might have been on other wagons and maybe didn't want to hop around? You've repeatedly mentioned that somehow you and Proph tunneling Ghosting and no one agreeing with you is some sort of validation. the scum might have taken a stab at my wagon, or Hunt, Mato, or whoever else had votes on them.
It's possible, sure. But none of those wagons have gotten any traction, either.
It's not an absolute case of 'No one is piling onto Ghosting, this makes him scum', it's a case of 'The fact that scum aren't hopping on the wagon that is being driven by town, that they don't even have to really justify the vote for, just /barn the reasoning, makes him more likely scum than he'd be otherwise'.
On a seperate note I really don't like Mato's response to the prod. Hop in, say something nervous, add a bunch of emoticons and not leave anything substantive.
Did you play with him in Twinborn? I can't remember I just reread Proph in that game I know Hunger was there.
I have not read Twinborn.
Every instinct I have is telling me he's scum for his most recent post, but I think that might be an inherent bias against emoticons in general.
My thing with Mato is, if he's scum, this is his first scum game.
This is really bizarre juxtaposed with his earlier posts where he was considering Ghosting's meta, but I think Ghosting's more recent posts defending himself instead of scum hunting drove him here.
Time for that stretch of limited/no access to actually start now, unfortunately.
I might still be able to poke my nose in through the next day or two, because I'm terrible at being responsible and allocating my time to things I should be allocating it to, over mafia.
I will talk with you about your reads or my reads on other players.
I will not talk with you about why you are scum, because I have no interest in any line of defense you'd try to give.
The case is literally: I don't think there is sufficient content for you to have the town read you did on GJ, for the reasons you gave.
This is only possible if you are scum, and know GJ is not scum.
The manner that you agreed with my reason-less town read feels like you knew I was town that identified a town correctly, and kind of awkwardly hopped on the 'Yep, GJ sure is town, nice catch!' bandwagon.
The fact that you later state that you hate reads without reasoning makes it hard for me to reconcile this behavior, because my initial town read on GJ had zero reasoning. If this is behavior you find scummy, I think Town!You tries to figure out my alignment in some form, rather than talking to me like I'm town with a correct read.
Your singleminded focus on defense, when there's functionally nothing to defend against, makes me convinced you are scum. The only line you have to take is to attack me and try to discredit me, which, well, you did!
This is the last I'll address my read on you, because it just serves no purpose to do so. I'm not going to convince you that you're scum, and you the reason I think you're scum means you can't really defend against it.
The way to 'defend' is to actively scumhunt, and try to figure out the game, and show that you're town - which you are not doing. You're self-centric in a way that town rarely is.
Expands on his scum read, drawing in Ghosting's recent posts.
Others can do so as well, but hold off until at least 1-2 of those do it, please.
Rather, I encourage everyone to read it and form an opinion, but don't necessarily post it yet.
Is trying to get at the alignments of his null/lean scum reads. Even though he's dedicated to a Ghosting lynch Today, he's looking for scum buddies and trying to get reads.
If it helps, I like to lock in on something early day one that I feel cannot come from town, and fixate on it. It forces people to acknowledge the wagon, commit to opinions on it, and interact with the gamestate around me and my target. So it provides data to look at for who ignored it, who subtly encouraged it without voting, and who shows a genuine thought process in terms of my alignment and actions, and the person I'm pushing.
I strongly think Ghosting is scum.
His early game read just did not come from a town player.
His reaction to the push on him did not come from a town player.
He's effectively attacking playstyle (not engaging with scum reads), rather than my behavior, because it's the only thing he can attack.
I highly encourage you to read back through my posts all game. I've fixated on him as scum, but not to the exclusion of generating reads on the rest of game. I just have a ton of town reads, with only 4-5 players who are not a town read.
This makes Ghosting even more likely scum in a vacuum, because I mean, someone is scum. 3-4 someones, probably.
This was just a month ago or so. I was Eidolonic in that game.
I latched onto Baramur as 'this did not come from town' like two hours into day one, and did not let up until they were lynched. (They were scum).
This is not me claiming I'm infallible, though my reads that game were obviously insane, but showcasing that this playstyle is how I prefer to play on day one. Identify something that is not how town acts, and latch on until they die, while still engaging with other town reads primarily.
I also explain the 'will not interact with scum reads' thing in that game, and you will see Proph interacting with me and treating me the same as he is in this game, too. He is in that game as Prophylaxis.
You will see how people treat me meta wise that know me, where I am 'self resolving' which will explain why it doesn't bother me that Proph is doing this.
Now he (finally) trots out a recent game of his to display his town meta. I haven't gotten a chance to look at it yet, but I don't think I need to, now.
As a side note, there was a lot of weird emotional things happen that game where one of the scum completely and utterly lost his mind, so it's not...really a great read. I almost replaced out and it'll be what the game is remembered for, rather than the fact that scum team conceded after 2 were publicly confirmed scum, and 2 others lynched, by night two.
I will interact with my scum reads about anything other than my read on them, or their read on me.
I've said this multiple times.
Reiterates his scum read policy. I don't agree with it (I think there's a decent argument that interacting with your scum reads about your read on them can convince spectators), but it's his policy, not mine.
I've straight up stated why I think you are scum multiple times, but you keep trying to defend against an indefensible point.
Which makes me think you're even more likely to be scum.
I think you're scum because I don't think you could have had the read you had on GJ, based on the content GJ provided.
I think you made up ***** for the town read, because you are scum who knows he is town, and had the benefit of too much information. You saw me town read him with no reasoning, and your instinct was to go 'Yep, you're right, he's town, let me hop on that read'.
That is not something you can defend against. What can you say? 'lol I had that town read for serious though'.
But instead you try to drag me into a logic/semantic/playstyle bull***** in a way that town never does. You lack scumhunting, you lack townhunting,you lack any kind of mindset that I can see coming from a town player who replaces in, sees they're being scum read (by only 1-2 people). You're focusing on self-preservation at the expense of almost anything else, and trying to use rhethoric and logic in place of solving the game.
I will never change my read on you barring mod confirmation.
I want you dead.
And this is the last I'll talk about my read on you, because you keep badgering me about things that I've said multiple times. If you can't read my posts, that's not my problem.
If people who aren't you want me to talk about my scum read on you, I happily will.
But I've talked about it ad nauseum.
His frustration that Ghosting is still badgering him about his scum read and that he refuses to scum hunt is coming in clear here.
Ghosting is very likely scum, yes, but I'm not bussing him.
Look at it both ways - both the way I'm treating him, and the way he's treating me. You're focusing on the former exclusively.
Scum never comes back to the game after being away, sees a buddy voting them with functionally being the only pressure on them, and reacts the way he has with a near single-minded fervor. They'd dismiss it, ignore it, or attack back hard.
He's doing some weird thing where he's obviously frustrated, but it feels like frustrated scum who was caught for the wrong (or no) reasons.
Check out post #629, and if you have the time/inclination, check out the game linked. One of the reasons I'm staying locked on Ghosting the way I am is how much he reminds me of Baramur, that I caught on day one of that game. The same kind of frustration over being caught, but for reasons they don't think are valid.
You'll also see Proph treating me the way he is this game, if that will help sort out your concerns with our interactions.
I don't like meta.
I didn't want to drag meta into this.
But Proph kind of ruined that by treating me like...me, instead of just a random player. So I guess meta is relevant to explain why.
This one is sort of confusing… Part of the problem is Ghosting's defense, but he doesn't care about the defense. Maybe he's just saying that even without the defense he would want Ghosting lynched and the defense makes him more sure.
I posted earlier how my read on GJ was not super strong, but I posted it looking for a certain kind of response that would indicate likely scum.
I do acknowledge there's a slim chance that I fell into a confirmation bias trap, where he responded in the way I was expecting scum to respond.
But I really don't think he makes that exact post as town, based on the content GJ provided before that post. I just don't. It feels like he just kept tacking more words on to justify the town read that he only had because he knew GJ wasn't scum with him.
Does that make any sense, or do I need to be more clear?
Part of the above post, just reasoning and expanding on his thoughts from that one.
I'll respond to the Brinatoo stuff and the Kraj stuff and what I was looking for, once I'm able to really sit down and go back through game.
Most of what I was looking for with the Kraj thing is who would try to genuinely figure out his alignment vs. who was just going through the motions to placate town that asked them a question. I'm not sure if I got anything strong out of it, but I want to parse the replies more when I have time.
This is theory, but strong town reads are the best thing you can have in mafia, arguably even better than a strong scum read. Because it limits the avenues scum can take. It means there's less people to push on, and closes the walls in around them, narrowing them down into a box.
Scum that start to feel trapped make mistakes. They panic.
Read that game I linked earlier, actually. That's kind of a picture perfect example of how town hunting is insanely effective. There were like 7-8 strong, consensus town reads on day one, leaving the scum nowhere to go. So two of them lashed out with emotional, out of game responses and it kind of turned into a crapfest of accusations and anger, but it does showcase the value of finding town reads you are sure of.
If you have 10 town reads, and you are town, that leaves 5 players left. With 3-4 scum in the game, it becomes really difficult NOT to lynch scum in that case.
I initially thought Proph was bussing Ghosting, but I don't think he has the balls to try and convince me out of the read the way he did with the 'what do you think of Ghosting's question post', if he's scum with Ghosting. I think he just doubles down and pushes, because he respects me enough that he thinks I'll get my way eventually.
I struggle to see Proph scum if Ghosting is Town, too, though, because it'd be such a weird line to take. There's not much in way of motivation or malice, he's just...being lazy. And I think it's probably town lazy, though not as sure as I'd like to be.
Bloscovi I keep reading your posts and thinking "oh my gosh whoever posted this is so town, let's see who it is... Oh goddammit it's Bloscovi again. So much for getting another townread."
Frustrating.
Can you quote/link posts that gave you this feeling?
My initial reaction was 'I mean, duh, of course you read my posts as town, because I'm obviously town', but.
I'm apparently not obviously town. To everyone, at least.
Frustration seems real here.
And that's it. Well, it's everything of substance anyway. Questions? Comments? Concerns? I need a long break after this one, I'll try to get my Ghosting PBPA up tonight but I won't promise anything.
@Bloscovi: Did you ever get around to reading that game Seppel linked you? If not, are you still considering Ghostings meta as a valid defense?
Man. That was one of the longer posts I've read over the course of my mafia career.
@Silver - I like the PBPA though I'm a little surprised that you went through the entirety of his posts and provided reasoning for most of them, rather than talk about a couple of specific posts that you found interesting and went a bit more in-depth. I read the PBPA and I still think that Bloscovi is town.
@Ghosting - Why do you suspect Seppel? Why do you call Matowar "scummy" instead of just him being scum? If you have a scumread on Bloscovi, do you think that Seppel and him can be scum together?
@Silver - I like the PBPA though I'm a little surprised that you went through the entirety of his posts and provided reasoning for most of them, rather than talk about a couple of specific posts that you found interesting and went a bit more in-depth. I read the PBPA and I still think that Bloscovi is town.
Actually, that's an accident. I went through his posts one by one to make sure I had read everything and I meant to delete the null ones. I got one or two of them and missed the rest cause I was in a hurry to post it.
after falling for Bond's charm I agreed to lend my survival knowledge to his cause.
This doesn't make any sense.
I am mentioned in your role PM as on your team basically.
First of all I'm not on your team.
And second why would it ever say that about another player? Role PM flavor does not confirm someone as town.
Can you tell us how you know town are not all Russians?
Terrible question. What other answer is there than "I am not russian"
This is either fishing or just not thinking about the game.
@bloscovi
I would like to wait for kraj to come say something. I would think that the reason I claimed is rather obvious now, but as of the time kraj posted his suspicion of me not having figured it out yet is, I suppose, forgivable.
I'm curious if that (or the reaction to that post) will have changed his tune.
ghosting's note dump is basically meaningless. He calls reasons weak and posts bad, he throws shade, he buddies up to seppel and tapping.
I don't mean to imply with this wording that he is obviously scum, because all of those things can come from town too. But I do not understand how it makes seppel feel better about him.
I have zero reason to believe bloscovi is scum. He is engaged, invested in his reads, and willing to put himself out there over them.
Now, if he is scum, and bussing the everloving crap out of ghosting, that would explain the willingness.
fwiw, townghosting probably means townbloscovi and scumghosting is meaningless with regards to blosc's alignment.
I don't think its likely bloscovi and proph are scum together. They've both been content to assume the other is town while expressing vague suspicion at the other for doing the same. This is likely to link them if either flips scum, and as such is not a +EV play if they are buddies.
But it is a useful shortcut if you are town and would like interact with someone before being sure of their alignment. And it is an easy way to interact with town if you are scum. Of those two, I think the former is most likely. Merely because I think their suspicion of one another was genuine and not just said for towncredit.
Do you think the only scenario in which Blosc is scum is one in which he is bussing me?
This question wasn't for me, but yes.
Though I just think he is town full stop.
I also do not like you backing off bloscovi after asking this question.
VOTE GHOSTING though I am also quite interested in a hunger lynch.
brinatoo is next on my reread list. I think I mentioned before about his leading questions but I haven't gotten around to analysing yet.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Curiosity killed the cat. But for awhile, I was a suspect.
I agree with this statement; his play is genuine, remarkably similar to Ace Attorney where he flipped town, and his response to my interpretation of his post was natural and didn't show any paranoia or anything, also didn't attack me in response.
In his next post he seems to town clear him while agreeing with Blos. I agree with Blos/Proph that this post doesn't seem to come from a town mindset; it's almost like he already had a town read on GJ and is attempting to justify it.
I know you haven't played with me in a loooooong time (if we played when my username was Burstinatrix/Nakamura, I actually can't remember), but I tend to post in this way regardless of alignment, more specifically as town but that's not verifiable in any games yet.
I like to think of the logic and motivation behind a post, like why did the person post this, what were their intentions, etc. When I read GJ's reply to me, he instantly read how he did in Ace Attorney, and also as someone who isn't really bothered by someone suggesting that what they're doing is scummy. I like that and think it makes someone town, and I don't see how it's better than just saying I think he's town. I feel like this comes up a lot with my play though lol and clearly is something I need to adjust.
Ghosting's defense here is basically “it's my meta, maybe I should try to play differently since I keep getting lynched.”
Another problem I have with this post is that Ghosting says GJ seemed like “someone who isn't really bothered by someone suggesting that what they're doing is scummy. I like that and think it makes someone town.” Of course, when he (Ghosting) gets back, he immediately jumps to his own defense even though his wagon is stalled out. More on that later, since it's the preponderance of his posts in thread.
1. It was definitely accusatory, but in the sense that I was applying pressure and seeking clarification of an unusually worded sentence. Also, I feel that why vote so soon when there's one thing he said only? I always make sure to at least hear someone's response before I vote for them, just in case they clarify or respond in a way that makes me see no reason to push further; there's no point rushing in to vote someone off of one post before giving them a chance to speak.
2. I'm pretty vocally against reads without reasons as I feel that it allows scum to casually buddy/cast suspicion without legitimate reason. It also helps me when I reference my own posts to see why I was thinking what I was thinking.
I definitely see how they appear crafted though, because they seem almost rigid? If that's the right word. I try to post things that are logically sound and with evidence and I feel like overall it's helped me improve my reads, but you aren't the first person to say it looks crafted so I see where you're coming from.
As a fellow logic/evidence guy who proof reads and rewords almost every post I make at least once, I sympathize with most of this post but I don't think it's alignment indicative over all.
His next post (#75) says, basically, that Blos's misgivings are not logically sound. Now, I don't think Blos quite articulated what he was thinking (but maybe I'm wrong), and what I thought was that Ghosting says he likes ”to think of the logic and motivation behind a post” but didn't question Blos's alignment or motives at all.
Matowar said he was being defensive, and he goes (#79) “Who me? I'm not being defensive. Why would you think that?”
If I said I wanted Ghosting, Tapping, Kraj, and Not A Gimmick all dead, what would your immediate, instinctual response be? The literal first thing that comes to mind, don't think about it.
Can you elaborate the desire for the bolded and also explain how it doesn't increase the chances of allowing you to lock him into a view?
Now I at least have something to work with if I at some point get knocked off. We have at least two instances of non-town mindset interacting with me.
Do you think it makes sense for Proph to so openly defend Kraj in this manner, though? It's so far from discreet that if Proph was town and Kraj flipped scum, it'd look incredibly suspicious, especially so early on.
Can't come from a town perspective? Even Kraj who is voting me said he say the town mindset in that question. There actually isn't a scum motivation to ask that question. From my point of view James Bond is likely one of our big power roles. I suppose there are some roles where Bond would be safe to claim on day one maybe he has something cool like the first time he would die it redirects some sort of evasion plus counter attack flavor? Even so I think it would be best to at least let the game develop a bit first.
Could be a VT trying to create value for us down the road but that would risk a possible counter-claim and maybe things spiral out of control and we have a mislynch. It's just a ton of WIFOM. No one else has volunteered their role so it's absolutely worthy of discussion.
Let's say that Bond is a town role. Do you think further discussion benefits town or scum more? Hypothetically, let's imagine James Bond is the doctor. If he tells us this, he's dead tonight. You can imagine similar scenarios.
This nicely sums up my problem with TS's play, and his entire reaction to the pressure on him has been OMGUS, with flimsy or inconsistent logic. I've also seen scum implode to pressure on less evidence than this on day 1. If it were later in the game and I had made a full case on him and strongly felt he's scum, then I'd dismiss his defense as desperate flailing and push for his lynch. However, time and time again I've seen townies - particularly on day 1 - get stuck in the mindset that anyone attacking them must be scum because the only thing they know for sure is they are town. In fact, I just finished a game Manders ran on DiesToRemoval as scum and used that exact reaction to push a case on a townie. That's the read I get off of TS here and I'm reasonably certain he's town.
Unvote
Regarding my play history, I semi-retired years ago and only join a game once in a while. Return to Amistaria might be the most recent town game, and Cyberspace the scum game. I can easily name older, more memorable games if you want. I earned a town MVP in my very first game, Mushroom Kingdom, and in Inheritance. I pulled off a miracle mafia win in Fairytale mini, and as a wacky neutral in Sword of Truth. More?
Also, why do you ask?
Having played with TS more than once, I can verify that his play thus far and what you're perceiving as OMGUS votes is in fact within his town playstyle. I'm reading him very much as town, and think that when you consider the motivations behind his posting as well as the raw emotion, it's clear he is also town in this game.
I am getting really nervous with all the town and scum reads so early. I never understood how people could clear people that quickly. Only strong town read I have is gimmick. Ghosting is a like a light scum read, and even then, I want to see more before I commit to it.
Do you then also feel that Proph's pushing for me to vote, as well as to ask people questions, is inherently town or scum? Or a null read? Asking you this specifically because you said you're nervous about all the early town and scum reads.
I read Kraj's last post, I really am not getting a "meltdown" vibe from him. Why did you mention that, and what were you referring to?
Can you explain sending both me and Proph? Do you feel that we are both likely to be scum together?
Here's the questions post. Proph thought this was a decently town post, but I don't really see it. His question to Blos is almost a misrep – in fact, Blos's phrasing almost makes it easier for Proph to squirm out of his answer later by saying “well, I didn't really think about it.”
The other things are just statements that are true and not really anything alignment indicative.
The only thing that's sort of townie is the way he tries to shut down the discussion about NaG's role, but then again it's also “Information instead of Analysis.” He's just stating that role speculation benefits scum more than town, which is probably true in a vacuum IF the role is a power role.
There's also his question at GJ, which looks like he might be trying to get in his head.
Next, he's gone for three days, posts that he'll be V/LA until Monday evening (seven days total) but he posts a quick question to Proph that basically boils down to “why are you attacking my playstyle?”
On Monday he PTAP because his wifi is down, then on Thursday he resumes posting (total absence: 9 days). I just wanted to do the math for reference, I'll let you guys decide if this is scum using excuses to lurk or if it's legitimate.
His first post after the break (#524) is a misinterpretation of one of Blos's posts trying to defend himself (which he attributes to playing while driving), then he writes this:
@Ghosting
I've talked about why I think you're scum a few times, you'll see it as you read through.
I don't really like engaging with people I think are scum, because I mean... I'm not going to convince you you're scum. I'll talk about my reads or your reads on any other player, but have no interest in discussing your alignment with you.
Right, but I definitely want to talk to you. I'm not trying to be convinced I'm scum, I'm trying to interact and respond to your views on me because you have said I'm scum. It only makes sense to respond to that and for us to interact as a result, and maybe you'll end up convinced. If nothing I say could make you think I'm town, that'd be a pretty hard-headed view to have; obviously, tunnel visioning isn't a good quality, so you should also want to discuss to further verify or disprove your view of me. So I am all for us talking.
It really just boils down to it reading like you saw me town read TCM, and you went 'Wow, well done fellow townie on identifying that fellow town of ours!'
Can you quote where I said this, like I asked? I want you to show me actual posts and not just "oh I read it this way". What did I say that actually made you think that's? Do you think that early on I should've had something more substantial to say? Do you see this scenario as impossible for town?
Especially given you said a few posts after that you hate reads with no reasoning.
Right, and I provided reads for everything. Why would you misrepresent that I didn't?
There was too much depth to the read on TCM for it to come from town given the amount of content TCM posted.
Too much depth? Care to elaborate? It was like a two sentence read if I recall, and certainly wasn't solidified. If you can quote and explain this excessive depth, maybe it'll be more clear, but it seems that this far your excuses are exaggerated, untrue, or misrepresented.
(There's also the fact that your wagon has generated zero traction, despite me effectively taking full responsibility for it. If you were town, why are scum not going 'Hm. Yeah, I can see your point, this seems like an okay direction to go)
Alternatively, the wagon may have no traction because of how few posts I've posted, my v/la status, people not agreeing, other wagons being present, etc. There's a million scenarios and yours seems to be the least rational.
I eagerly await your responses!
Which shows he's waaay more invested in Blos's scum read of him than he is in actually solving the game or scum hunting. I mean, it's possible that he really is town who doesn't understand why Blos is scum reading him, but then later on I explain pretty explicitly and get ignored.
So are you going to respond to what I said, or completely ignore it?
You have made up points against me, vastly misconstrued me, and refused to elaborate on your views when asked for proof. Additionally, you have refused to discuss and demonstrated that you are not willing to even listen to a response I have. Can you explain how that possibly comes from a town mindset, or is asking for a reply too much?
This post is basically an attack on Bloscovi for refusing to engage him. On the town!Ghosting side, I don't know what he gets out of this exactly unless he's scum reading Blos and hasn't given any indication of that yet. On the scum!Ghosting side, he keeps Blos's attention off scum hunting for his buddies and tries to flip the conversation to being about Bloscovi instead of himself.
He's also willfully ignoring Blos's case against him by claiming it is made up and/or misconstrued. The case definitely exists, and while it isn't air tight flailing like this doesn't make him look better.
His next post (#548) is along the same lines; he calls the case “illegitimate” and throws shade on Blos for refusing to engage him.
I might be reading this very superficially, but you stated that you were against reads without reasoning, then when I asked you what your views of the gamestate was you pulled out.. reads without reasoning. Can you clarify that?
Yeah, no problem.
I had already explained my reasons for thinking these people are town earlier (you can check back to see this as well). I said Mato sounds like he did in Ace where he was town, GJ I explained in more than one post in decent detail, and I said I think you're town with reasons as well in an earlier post. I actually read my earlier posts to make that post, so that's how I know I for sure did lol.
Also, I had very few reads and very little material to work with to determine reads, so I was working with what I have.
Keep the questions coming though, it really helps me feel like I'm a part of the game lol. After not reading or playing for so long I came back in having no idea what's up. I still feel that way, but I'm working on my reread, so it's getting better.
He thanks Proph for asking him questions; it makes him feel involved in the game again. This is probably the towniest post I've seen (or will see) in this iso – scum wouldn't mind feeling disconnected from the game, they'd probably try to play it up.
In fact, to Ghosting's credit, I don't think he really uses his V/LA as an excuse for not knowing what's going on. He makes some comments about it, but not really in a defensive way.
I'm torn on his OMGUS vote on Blos (#552). On the one hand, I can see town!Ghosting seeing a similar line of attack being used against him in two games and suspecting his attacker. On the other, I don't think Blos's case is as terrible as Ghosting claims.
He says he's going to provide a T/S list (#553, continues flailing at Blos (#573), then engages or attacks Blos for another three posts (#578, 579, and 580) and finally in #580 says he won't clog up the thread with arguing against Blos anymore.
My notes, if necessary I can organise them into more coherent thoughts, I'll have a T/D list momentarily, 10% battery and in physics lab rn lol.
Hunger likely town
492 by Blosc is literally just him trying to earn town points.
Proph and Blosc agree a LOT. Already caught like 20 instances of this, and it's very weird.
Silvercry's 404 makes me think he's town.
407: Blosc says I could over explain as town or scum, but that he "feels" like I'm doing it as scum. I've already addressed this with him and explained, but I guess that doesn't matter to him lol. GJ read very town to me, and I was simply noting my read my replying to his same read. Additionally, his point that I didn't try to determine his alignment is so weak, it was the first page, maybe the second, and barely out of RVS. He's trying to push incredibly weak points as these definitive and objective indications of my alignment.
Also, in 408, Blosc calls Hunt town.
In 412, Blosc responds to Proph pointing out a post he thinks is town of me, and says it's good but doesn't indicate my alignment. So of my like 5 posts at that point, the ones where I don't try to figure out Blosc's alignment but explain why I think GJ is town mean I'm scum, but a huge post with genuine scum hunting somehow doesn't at all reflect positively on me. How? No matter what his motivation is, he's tunnel visioning me. He's definitively just choosing which posts to call scummy and ignoring any that reflect otherwise.
He also says "Mindreaver is a light town read for reasons I don't remember". What? Well go back and look for them! I don't know how you forget that even, but I find it hard to believe he can't think of SOMETHING.
#415: Proph says that my wagon could exist in me as town world, Blosc totally dismisses it. Again, just another example where he refuses to acknowledge any likeliness I'm town, even if it's the rational option in a hypothetical situation.
Just now seeing Seppel's claim. I can help you, but in a unique way. I'm not sure I want to disclose just how. But I can absolutely help you.
#447 by Silvercry looks like he's trying to act active but isn't actually doing anything.
#351: What a surprise, people ask questions of Blosc and his response is "I see the questions, just don't have time to respond to them". Yet another instance of Blosc not cooperating or answering what's asked of him.
#353: Blosc town clears Seppel based on what he said about me, considers he might need to reread me, but obviously nothing has changed. He's acknowledged the possibility of me being town, but is headstrong on wanting me dead.
#371: By Silvercry, runs to Hunt's defense, looks like he really wants Seppel to be voting for Mato instead? How this is posted is very weird too. Will have to look at it again later.
#378: Can someone please try to convince me TS is scum after this. What a genuine, town mindset. I feel like TS is blatantly town and this is just further proof.
#392: By TS, I like this post, he sounds like a townie who is genuinely frustrated and trying to make other people see his view.
Post #398 is how I feel about Proph almost exactly, lol. TS in this game is Cyan in AA. Defending me, very genuine, obviously town. If he gets killed, they'll be identical.
Post #399 by Bosc, paragraphs upon paragraphs of WIFOM, where he really doesn't say much at all. "I agree, but I don't, but yeah he's probably town he won't get lynched", followed by lots of WIFOM.
Not a gimmick is town for #333.
#336 by Mato is horribly bad, and I feel like this is one of the most obvious indicators of his alignments. At this point, I'm thinking Blosc/Mato are paired, and am working from there. Possibly Kraj? He just seems to be playing so lazily thus far.
Post #349: "I think Hunger is scum, it's a gut read and nothing more, but I think he's scum." What a terrible reason, lol. Also, "Imab is obviously anti-town, but I don't want him lynched". He basically fencesits on him, clearly seeing which way people go on him before placing an actual read.
Post #350: Your reason for calling me scum is listed here, and it's not even what I was doing. I wasn't congratulating you on saying he's town, I thought he was town and was like I also think this, here's why I do. In no way was I congratulating you or acting in the ridiculously over exaggerated and misconstrued manner you presented me to be acting.
The catch-up post. This almost reads like he can't keep track of who he's throwing shade on and who he's town reading. It probably doesn't help that it isn't even in chronological order.
The most egregious example of him losing track is on me: He says my #404 makes him think I'm town, then later in his post he throws shade on me for my #447 (after that chronologically) and #371 (before it chronologically).
This post is half him passive-aggresively continuing the argument with Blos and half him actually commenting on stuff he's missed.
In his (#598) he throws shade on Proph, echoing TappingStones' thoughts on their relationship.
He tries to get me to jump back on the Blos wagon (#614 and #620), tries to convince me that if Blos is scum he might not be bussing him (lol, #623), then starts in on Blos again because he hasn't budged in his read (#634).
Your reads on these players cannot be tied into me whatsoever. Pretend I don't exist, if that's easier.
If you want to defend yourself, figuring out the game and finding scum is how you need to do so, rather than attacking playstyle.
Here's a thought experiment: isn't proposing thought experiments interacting with your scumreads? Because you refuse to respond to my refute to your argument for that exact reason...
Here's a direct misrep of Blos's position…. Blos said he would talk to him about literally anything except the single scumread he has on Ghosting, and here's Ghosting saying Blos is refusing to interact with him at all and refusing to answer the hypothetical on those grounds.
The rest of this is recent, so no links.
He asks Seppel a question in a way that makes him sound suspicious of him, accuses Seppel's town read on Blos of “sounding crafted” (it worked against him on page two, right?), then backs down and unvotes Blos after trying to engage him on the scum read thing again for four or five posts.
Whew. I think my thoughts are pretty easy to track across these two PBPAs, but give me a minute to organize my thoughts more concisely and put up a new T/S list.
@Ghosting: If you want us to town read you, stop flailing against Blos. He isn't going to budge, and we don't want you to talk your way out of Blos's case anyway. Don't explain that you're town; show us you're town by scum hunting. We could use a real T/S list with explanations, for starters. I don't think you've given us more than the disjointed thoughts in #584.
Lean Town
Bloscovi
Brinatoo
Huntzilla
Prophylaxis
Seppel
No Read
Hunger
imabusinessman
Mindreaver
Lean Scum
Matowar77
Probably Scum
Ghosting
Claimed Neutrals
Gentleman Johnny
not_a_gimmick
Lurking?
Kraj
Jobie
Changes from last T/S
I feel better about Brinatoo after his #617. His posts have been pretty good overall.
I followed Blos's thoughts almost perfectly when I read most of his posts. I still have some suspicions based around his self-claimed bussing meta, but I'm pretty comfortable putting him lean town at least for now. I shouldn't have let myself get sucked into the WIFOM in the first place - it made me way too suspicious with only tenuous reasoning at best.
Ghosting looks pretty awful in iso. Between his first few posts which sunk him with Blos and his most recent catch-up attempts and flailing I'd be pretty comfortable with a Ghosting lynch.
Unvote
Vote: Ghosting
My next effort will be reading Hunger, probably tomorrow or maybe later tonight.
Unless someone wants to sell me on him one way or the other.
Why wouldn't it be the same for me? I have not been a fan of that slot (including after Silver replaced in), why does it have to just be buddying towards Blos?
I don't understand what your first question is referring to and my brief conversation with Mindreaver would elaborate why it was with Blos, the one to come up with a "shoot on the spot" question.
I feel like I need to take a step back and revisit my thoughts because I feel like I'm not enjoying this game as much as I'd like to.
Like just in all honesty, I really feel like Blosc has done a lot of stuff that isn't very townie, and everyone's just acting like I should drop my biggest scum read and not call him out for certain things. There were definitively times where he misrepped me and I'm fairly certain I already proved that. And reading Silver's case, I feel like I couldn't agree and that he went into it thinking Blosc was town and translating his posts in a manner to confirm that, whereas the opposite with me. Like the notes things, yes they're my notes lol, obviously I am saying whatever my thoughts are in there. If I read a post and it reads suspicious, I'll mark that in my notes. If a later one reads town, I'm also going to mark that; they're notes, not some crafted opinion or whatever I'm trying to make meticulous for the world to see.
As far as my absence, it wasn't just wifi. I really genuinely hope my absence isn't being used against me...I had an electronic music festival that was two days long, slept like the entire next day to recover (recovery took like 4 days total, but sooo worth it), wifi went out, electricity went out following day, had three exams, I have school every day and every day I don't I work, and I make sure to do my best to stay active and help out whenever possible. I even post in class so I don't just disappear again. Also, my classes are ridiculously hard, I'm a Biochem/Physics double major so it's a crazy workload lol.
Yeah, Silver is now firmly in 'will never lynch' territory for me.
(This is kind of OOG, and unrelated to this game in general, but thanks for replacing in, and actually playing the game. It's been a pleasure to play with you and I hope to see you around more in other games.)
---
Matowar77
imabusinessman
Jobie
Kraj
Hunger
---
There are almost definitely 2-3 scum in that cluster of 5 names. I'm conflicted on almost all of them.
Matowar - Scummy in a vacuum, but almost too brazen to be scum. Maybe I need to adjust my expectations of what I expect from similar players in their first scum games? I just keep reading through his ISO, and going 'Ugh, that reads horrible, but does he really make that post as scum? I don't...think so? Maybe?
imabusinessman - Useless. Blatantly claimed he was going to lurk and be scummy, and proceeded to do so, while taking the game off on tangents and contributing nothing. He's a terrible lynch, but is someone I'd kill in the night if I could. (The reasoning being he has a decent chance of being scum, but his behavior makes a wagon on him meaningless, because there's virtually nothing to learn from his interactions). There's an argument that scum would never play the way he has this game, but considering he's intentionally trying to create that very WiFOM, it's hard for me to reconcile it with any kind of town mindset I can fathom.
Jobie - ???. I've got literally nothing. He dropped his vote on Kraj and vanished. He's pushing nothing, and making minimal attempt to figure anything out. He's a fairly plausible scumbuddy of Ghosting for the way he dismissed the wagon on him in one of his few posts, maybe.
Kraj - I liked his push on Tapping, and liked the frustration and attempt at understanding. I did not like the push on Mindreaver, I did not like the push on NAG. His posts almost feel 'too' careful and reasonable at some points, and he hasn't had a push on someone that is likely to be scum yet. Reminding myself that I want to go through and look at the responses from people I asked to check out his ISO, both to help my read on him, and to help my read on /them/. If someone else wants to tackle that and collect the data points into something readable I'd love you forever. My time is very, very limited for a few days.
Hunger - The stuff with Role PM's is a thing. PoE is a thing. He's been perfectly reasonable, but I mean. That's a Hunger tell, not an alignment tell. I remember disliking some of his questions upon him catching up, because they felt empty, like he was going through the motions. So I need to go back and look at that again, and the followup. Ergh. I don't have time to keep creating more work for myself.
---
TL;DR - I dunno lol. Ghosting is scum, but there's just not enough content from this cluster for me to have strong feelings about them. If someone can sell me on a strong town read on one of them, please do so.
Yeah, questioning the validity of someone's real life commitments is kind of angle-shooty, and not really in the spirit of the game.
We all play mafia to have fun. Don't make other people feel bad for enjoying real life over a random internet forum game played with strangers.
Thanks for saying this.
I love mafia, I actually feel like I'm just experiencing tunnel vision for the first time, lol. In my mind, all I want to do is convince people that Blosc is scum. Everything he does, I've been doing my best to see as town, but am having a really hard time doing so. I understand though that at this point, if I want to help town and show that I'm town, even if Blosc is scum, pushing his case is only going to make things worse.
I mean, obviously you're not going to agree that you're scum even if you are.
I'm not holding your absence against you specifically, I just wanted to add it up for reference.
If you have a scum read on Blos, make your case for it. You have at least two sympathetic ears in Tapping and Hunt, who are both suspicious of him and town reading you. As it is, your case against Blos seems to be "he's been driving my wagon all game" and "he won't engage with me on his read of me."
I just think that your reaction to being scum read - with a stalled wagon, and especially when you said early game that you thought town would brush off being scum read and keep hunting - is not particularly helpful to town and makes you look really bad.
All of that said, the thought had crossed my mind that whichever of you I did first might bias me against the other one. If you think I'm being unfair, I'm certainly amenable to discussing my PBPA with you, though I'm not entirely certain that it would have made a real difference if I had done you first.
All of that said, the thought had crossed my mind that whichever of you I did first might bias me against the other one. If you think I'm being unfair, I'm certainly amenable to discussing my PBPA with you, though I'm not entirely certain that it would have made a real difference if I had done you first.
After I inevitably get shot n1 or n2, remember this post, and don't let people try to lynch Silver later in the game.
I mean, obviously you're not going to agree that you're scum even if you are.
I'm not holding your absence against you specifically, I just wanted to add it up for reference.
Thanks for the clarification, and I don't really mind, you also use it positively so it's not like you're doing so manipulatively (also it's far from your only point). I genuinely will never fake v/la or something in mafia, I think it's really poor sportsmanship and takes away from the game.
If you have a scum read on Blos, make your case for it. You have at least two sympathetic ears in Tapping and Hunt, who are both suspicious of him and town reading you. As it is, your case against Blos seems to be "he's been driving my wagon all game" and "he won't engage with me on his read of me."
Reading this, I actually see why my read on Blosc is bad. There's one other major point, but those two are pretty poor reasons. Additionally, it proves you're paying attention, and this part of the post by you in general is making me feel pretty good about you.
I just think that your reaction to being scum read - with a stalled wagon, and especially when you said early game that you thought town would brush off being scum read and keep hunting - is not particularly helpful to town and makes you look really bad.
Playstyle wise, if anyone ever thinks I'm scum, I always want to prove to them how it's not true. I'm all about creating discussion and seeking elaborated viewpoints in order to show that I'm not scum so we can stop wasting time and move on to the next person. I also feel like it helped me jump into the game and create a good set of reactions to work off as well (which we did, there's definitely a new chunk of interactions that didn't exist before). However, I think what I fail to realise is that while it's obvious to me I'm town, you guys are all reading my posts with suspicion, just like I read yours. I think I play a bit too carelessly and confidently, I guess? Like I assume you guys KNOW I'm town and that's why I'm all like "What?! How can you possibly think I'm scum?!"
All of that said, the thought had crossed my mind that whichever of you I did first might bias me against the other one. If you think I'm being unfair, I'm certainly amenable to discussing my PBPA with you, though I'm not entirely certain that it would have made a real difference if I had done you first.
If anything, I'm sure previous bias would have more impact than the order, and your cases are both good natured.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Why can't I improve? Am I supposed to play every game the same in your eyes? Sometimes I like to derp around and do jack ***** (something you should be VERY familiar with Seppel). Sometimes I like to actually play. Not to mention I said I was going to actually start trying a little... why do you WANT to paint me into a box with your (not very accurate) meta read?
I didn't botch my claim in Full Deck. It was the reason why I lasted so long. The two mistakes I made that game was 1) Killing your brother and 2) Believing your lying ass. If I had just killed Manders' hubby I would have been fine.
Revisionist history aside, you are correct that you made the comment about me sounding smarter in that game. I was the SK, by the way, not Mafia... but there was only Iso as mafia in that game anyway. Ocean and I were Neutrals.
Which brings me to my point. You lie as town or scum. Why would anyone believe your claim this game? What you are trying to paint as conflicting seems to me more like evolving... My read got clearer and I did put the ONUS on others in order to show me where they thought TS was acting different than his normal self. It's true that the meta defense amounts to a null tell, but I made a point to mention it because at that point I felt a lot of time was going to be wasted trying to question and push TS in a way that I have been doing for a few months now. So, I stepped in to tell people what I thought about it. TS' towniness has only gotten clearer over time to me.
The proph question was an odd question, and I was reacting to the odd phrasing. Correct, you PROBABLY have a reason. It's not 100% sure though. Asking the question gets you to the point quicker.
All of this post just looks like you trying to smear me for junk reasons. I would love for you to point out where I "stuck my nose in places." I have been asking my own questions and scumhunting. I tried to assist with a meta read on TS. I'm not sure where you think I haven't provided insight, because I have gone out of my way this game to be vocal and thoughtful... to the point where that's Seppel's stupid case on me. lol I mean the fact that you are trying to argue the opposite makes little sense, and I think you are just trying to make me look bad through flimsy reasoning.
Unvote
Vote Hunger So, does that mean you trust the claim, don't trust the claim, want them to die because they are neutral, or are okay with keeping them alive? I agree with your read here. The rest was a mixed bag. I really like this post. Well reasoned with a good amount of insight into the role pm mud. I am not a total fan of the Nag vote at the end, but I can at least see where Kraj got it from. IS there any other way that this could shake out Kraj? Any other people that could end up being the scum? He confirms, then sits in RVS for what looks like a couple posts... Then moves onto his Tunneling of TS. He eventually comes out of it and moves onto Mindreaver, which is where I was too, and then lastly moves to NAG. I don't agree with several of the places Kraj ended up, but his reasoning looks solid, his mind seems fluid (aside from his trying to wrap his mind around TS which took a bit) and he has been moving his vote when necessary. The biggest thing that stood out to me was in the Mindreaver vote post where he talked about how Mindreaver was on a "dead" wagon and a "stalling" one, as in my experience townies don't often watch for wagons like that until after flips. That was the only scummy thing I saw.
I'm not lurking, I was legtimately gone for a few days, and came back right away to post. These are the smears I am talking about man. Plus the fact that I am getting called a lurker by you is just not cool...
Bussing is a two way street.
Ghosting is very likely scum, yes, but I'm not bussing him.
Look at it both ways - both the way I'm treating him, and the way he's treating me. You're focusing on the former exclusively.
Scum never comes back to the game after being away, sees a buddy voting them with functionally being the only pressure on them, and reacts the way he has with a near single-minded fervor. They'd dismiss it, ignore it, or attack back hard.
He's doing some weird thing where he's obviously frustrated, but it feels like frustrated scum who was caught for the wrong (or no) reasons.
Check out post #629, and if you have the time/inclination, check out the game linked. One of the reasons I'm staying locked on Ghosting the way I am is how much he reminds me of Baramur, that I caught on day one of that game. The same kind of frustration over being caught, but for reasons they don't think are valid.
You'll also see Proph treating me the way he is this game, if that will help sort out your concerns with our interactions.
I don't like meta.
I didn't want to drag meta into this.
But Proph kind of ruined that by treating me like...me, instead of just a random player. So I guess meta is relevant to explain why.
I hear ya. The thing is I just got done playing with GHosting where he was getting run up in a similar manner and defended himself EXACTLY the same way. In Ace Attorney mafia, he was town and Meggido (who was scum) was tunneling him in a similar manner to you. So that's where I'm at. So I wouldn't mind if you would at least continue to engage with him so we can flesh this out. I caught onto Meggido and that might be why I'm quick to feel the same way about you. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't have my heart set on killing you, but I do want people to start fleshing out their arguments more.
I will check out that game, as I did with Twinborn when I checked out Proph. But you should really see what meggido and Tom did to Ghosting just pathetic tunneling on town.
I don't really care about the defense.
I am 100% willing to lynch him on the fact that I think he knew GJ was town.
Here's a post where Silver lays it out: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/700341-goldeneye-mafia-day-1-frigate?comment=558
I do acknowledge there's a slim chance that I fell into a confirmation bias trap, where he responded in the way I was expecting scum to respond.
But I really don't think he makes that exact post as town, based on the content GJ provided before that post. I just don't. It feels like he just kept tacking more words on to justify the town read that he only had because he knew GJ wasn't scum with him.
Does that make any sense, or do I need to be more clear?
Most of what I was looking for with the Kraj thing is who would try to genuinely figure out his alignment vs. who was just going through the motions to placate town that asked them a question. I'm not sure if I got anything strong out of it, but I want to parse the replies more when I have time.
No, that's clear enough.
What do you think about Proph's lack of scum hunting? How can we win if people all say they want to "town hunt"?
This is theory, but strong town reads are the best thing you can have in mafia, arguably even better than a strong scum read. Because it limits the avenues scum can take. It means there's less people to push on, and closes the walls in around them, narrowing them down into a box.
Scum that start to feel trapped make mistakes. They panic.
Read that game I linked earlier, actually. That's kind of a picture perfect example of how town hunting is insanely effective. There were like 7-8 strong, consensus town reads on day one, leaving the scum nowhere to go. So two of them lashed out with emotional, out of game responses and it kind of turned into a crapfest of accusations and anger, but it does showcase the value of finding town reads you are sure of.
If you have 10 town reads, and you are town, that leaves 5 players left. With 3-4 scum in the game, it becomes really difficult NOT to lynch scum in that case.
I initially thought Proph was bussing Ghosting, but I don't think he has the balls to try and convince me out of the read the way he did with the 'what do you think of Ghosting's question post', if he's scum with Ghosting. I think he just doubles down and pushes, because he respects me enough that he thinks I'll get my way eventually.
I struggle to see Proph scum if Ghosting is Town, too, though, because it'd be such a weird line to take. There's not much in way of motivation or malice, he's just...being lazy. And I think it's probably town lazy, though not as sure as I'd like to be.
Can you quote/link posts that gave you this feeling?
My initial reaction was 'I mean, duh, of course you read my posts as town, because I'm obviously town', but.
I'm apparently not obviously town. To everyone, at least.
I need to fix that.
This is mostly a pointless post that will serve as a reminder for me when I'm technically done with my V/LA.
I should be doing almost anything but mafia right now, but I'm an addict.
It was the long one just before that post. You could compile your questions and post them and then I'll repost them and ask him them. That gets around his restriction. i don't think ghosting is scum. If he is, there's plenty of more reasonable D1 scumlynches.
That second question doesn't make any sense. Of course his behavior is incredibly town, and that makes his alignment town. Also just try to read that above post out loud and try to make it sound scummy. You just can't. Everything is so natural and full of deep thought and a desire to solve the game. That's incredibly hard to fake.
Bloscovi
Proph
Kraj
Cyrstal
Mato
These are the places I'm interested in working at the moment.
I think it's less likely a situation where Bloscovi is bussing Ghosting. I was nervous about Bloscovi early, but he has really redeemed himself through fleshed out reads. I am nervous about Proph' buddying of Bloscovi so damn blatantly, that has me scratching my head. Ghosting could for sure be scum, and I think Bloscovi feels confident he caught him (for the wrong reasons or not). Proph could certainly be the one bussing, and would be MORE likely in my mind. I do think a good argument can be made that Ghosting is trying VERY hard to copy his AA meta, and then uses this as his defense. I agree with you that Ghosting should not be the lynch today.
Can you help me with Hunger's smear campaign against me? What do you think the reason is he is engaging this way?
I'll have a look at Hunger.
I agree Proph is a fine lynch.
Bloscovi - if he's a good lynch because he's hard bussing, Ghosting is at least as good. I'm also feeling a bit better about him after his posts on the last page.
Proph - I don't think he's aligned with Blos and earlier you said if Blos flipped scum you thought Ghosting was more likely to be scum with him than Proph. Are you just that interested in flipping one of them?
Kraj - Looked town to begin with then threw a vote on NaG because of flavor gaming. Has a couple of people giving him town reads recently. I'm not sure he's done anything scummy either.
Crystal - oh, that's me. Mind sharing your reservations with the rest of the class?
Mato - easily the easiest lynch remaining Today, he's not even really here. Makes me wonder why scum aren't pushing him for the mislynch (if he's town).
So, yeah. Out of your lynch options I'd be ok with a Mato lynch but I don't think he's the best choice in terms of information. We'll get his wagon and not much else.
@Everyone:
I should be starting those PBPAs within the next hour or so, and I'll throw up another T/S list when I'm finished with them (which might not be until this evening).
I don't think there is anything particularly out of line with what Hunger said about you. Hunger may think he's found something. It did feel lurky when you disappeared, but considering so few people are active it isn't a case in and of itself.
Any idea why Hunger asked you the random question near the beginning of the game? it seems a little out of place to me.
He's a good lynch because of the strange company he keeps. The "Proph Partnership" plus the potential "Ghosting Bus" are juicy in and of themselves. Nice flip to analyze. He definitely raises eye-brows with some of these interactions and it will be a juicy set of interactions to analyze.
Read above^^ Proph barning all of Blos and tunneling Ghosting just comes across so scummy to me. His interactions with Blos coupled with how much time he spent babbling about theory are all warning bells for me.
I think he's been hiding out and I do hunt lurkers.
Your predecessor's work looks suspect on the reread and it's thinks we have already spoken about.
Disagree that he's the easiest choice. He's the easiest one to run up and that's what I'm scared of. I lead an attack on him in AA that was a mislynch. He played like "Tomsloger" which is an instalynch on the site. Last couple posts have been super shaky.
Not happy with any of the others? Wow, I hope you have a nice list of potentials because Blos and Proph, etc are only picking one person today and that guy isn't getting lynched.
1) Blos - Flip for interactions and because Proph is buddying him if I read that right.
2) Proph - Clearly has not been tunneling Ghosting. He's expressed misgivings on a Ghosting lynch several times. Here's one: #411. The only reason he's still on Ghosting is because he trusts Blos.
3) Kraj - We won't get much info from an analysis of his interactions either. I guess I'd be ok with a Kraj lynch, but like Mato he isn't the best option. You're basically trying to get him policy lynched (if you push his wagon).
4) Me - obviously I don't want lynched but I don't blame you for suspecting HWP.
5) Mato - that's what I was saying. The easiest lynch == The easiest to run up. It's curious that scum aren't trying to push his wagon, but we still have over a week so maybe they'll try a little closer to the deadline. Please note I didn't say "he's the easiest choice for the lynch," but clearly out of the people on your list he is the least helpful and has the least number of people vouching for him.
What's the difference between Seppel and Proph saying "we don't want to lynch Blos" and you and Hunt saying "we don't want to lynch Ghosting"? There's 16 players and we only need 9 to lynch. I don't think anyone is absolutely off the table and we need to consider both who is likely to flip scum and who will give us the most information to solve the game Day 2.
1) Give us a T/S list, please.
2) Thoughts on Bloscovi, Proph, Ghosting, and Hunger when you get caught up?
3) Why so lurky? You're not V/LA but you're waiting like two days between posts. Are you trying to avoid getting mislynched or are you trying to avoid scum slipping?
You can read the myriad of things I've said about Proph. And I called him scum and voted him long before my recognition of the Blos buddying.
In regards to your other question, like I have to take a stand on my reads and my own feelings (with considerations toward everyone's arguments). I gave a list I feel best about going after, Blos gave a list earlier as well, there's a bit of carry over but truth be told each player with have at least a slightly different list, some vastly different, and some folks are scum so not sure what to tell you.
I actually want to go back and remember what kind of things were claimed already. I remember Seppel claimed but I'm not sure what his abilities mean because I've never heard of that role and I think 1-2 others full claimed. I know this is flavor but with the secret agent theme I'd think there would be a lot of sneaky stuff happening at night.
Day two should be really fun to analyze, hopefully after a scum flip.
It appears he believed that I was "inconsistent" in my position on you. But like I responded, I was just solidifying my thought process on you. It was very out of place actually, along with his other questions... They didn't appear to serve much of a purpose aside from being questions for questions sake... No matter how I answered he was going to spin what I said against me it seemed.
Agreed. I actually really, really hate Day 1 because it feels slow and has such a high probability of a mislynch, but it's too important for getting information later on. Day 2+ is where the game starts to get interesting.
Also, Blosc's comment about strong town reads makes me think I know who he is.
I'm working all day today and tomorrow morning, so I won't have much substance until tomorrow night, but will post what I can.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
This is the strongest argument I've heard in favor of lynching Matowar. Consider my vote on him.
Also, what is your view of Ghosting and the two players who are voting him (Proph, Bloscovi)? It's sort of been a major issue over these past couple of pages, and I'm eager to hear your input.
Heh, I did look up. What an appropriate meme!
Thanks for responding to me and giving me an update on your mindset, however.
Huge apologies for doing that, btw. I know you wanted to play the game under a gimmick but I kind of spoiled the broth on that.
@Ghosting: Do me a favor - can you talk about some people other than Bloscovi for a moment? All I've seen from your posts is defending and trying to attack Bloscovi when it would probably be more prudent to ask others questions and such.
/barn this.
Huntzilla/Kraj probably not scumbuddies together.
I wanted to ask you that, by the way, because it would be something that if you weren't here, would cause me to unvote Ghosting and look somewhere else. I'm just trying to understand the differences on how you and I evaluate posts.
If you think I am bussing, why don't you hop on Ghosting's wagon and help me get him lynched?
I just wanted to say that you've been a stellar replacement so far - you're active, competent, engaged, and breathing new life into the game. Thanks!
At work now though so my posts can only be short ones like this.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
RVS vote on Proph, tells him to die.
The self-proclaimed scum trap that spawned most of this headache.
Votes Ghosting for his response to #40.
The accusation.
Matowar says Ghosting doesn't seem to be wrong. Blosc asks Proph what he thinks this says about Mato's alignment.
Looking back, this almost looks like a scum slip on Mato's part and makes Ghosting look even worse in context.
This puts me in a conundrum. He's trying to strengthen his scum read on Ghosting by pointing out that Ghosting isn't even trying to determine his alignment.
Doesn't share his read of Mato's post. Seems frustrated by Mato's use of emoticons, which could be either town frustration or scum lightly coaching him to back off on them because they're suspicious.
Starts vig speculating.
Reiterates that Ghosting is one of his scum reads. Actually, I don't know if he ever answered TappingStones about why he picked those four, though I will speculate that he was more reaction fishing on Proph than he was scum reading all of them.
Yep, I think he was reaction fishing Proph. For context, Proph answers him then asks him for help reading TappingStones and Blosc doesn't answer. Probably just got lost in the shuffle seeing as this is his next post:
Frustration with TappingStones' posts feels genuine. I would think if Blosc was scum he would try to push the TS wagon here (unless he's just really, really invested in bussing Ghosting).
Null post.
Small catch up. I haven't seen anything overtly scummy in this iso yet.
Defends GJ's neutral claim, but doesn't explain why he thinks GJ and Ghosting are an unaligned pair. Regardless, I think GJ's neutral claim is pretty widely accepted. If Blos is scum, the last part of this post is very weird. He would actually want town to waste a vig on GJ, and would wait until night chat to tell his scum buddies not to bother night killing him. But then the last part of the post almost makes it look like he's trying to score towncred for GJ. I think if Blos flips scum this is worth looking at again.
Says Hunger is probably scum based on statistics, which I agree with. Says he doesn't want to lynch IMAB, but then says he wants him dead eventually. This might just be a reflection of the fact that he seems to be thinking while he's typing – He doesn't want to lynch him, considers the WIFOM, then wants him dead eventually but wants Ghosting dead first.
Readdresses his Ghosting scum read. I find myself agreeing more with his posts and I can't really fault Proph for /barning him when they both agree.
I'm not sure how to read this post. Probably null, he's just commenting on his own state of mind when approaching the game. Almost feels like he's more engaged now then he was when he wrote this.
Says he'll consider Ghosting's meta, then never mentions it again.
He's trying to get TS to scum hunt instead of tunneling him. Also trying to determine TS's alignment.
Reiterating his case on Ghosting. He's driving this wagon quite hard.
A meta defense of Proph. I especially agree with his last point, as that was something I commented on before this post.
Discussing his play style. Overall a null post for examining his alignment, he could/would say the same things as scum.
He re-reiterates his Ghosting scum read for my benefit. Probably null overall though his tone here is pretty friendly/relaxed.
Read with no explanation. Probably trying to generate reactions.
He's trying to get into my head and figure out my alignment. He's vig speculating again, but that's a null tell.
Speculating on why the Ghosting wagon stalled. I have similar thoughts on the Matowar wagon – why would scum ignore the wagon? Do they think it's a trap? Maybe they're just trying to drag out Day 1 to fatigue town. Or one of them is scum and they aren't prepared to bus Day 1.
Continuing his thought process on Ghosting's wagon, he's trying to get Proph to take a stance one way or the other. This further solidifies my theory that they're an unaligned pair.
Trying to get inside my head again and see where I'm coming from.
Is a little thrown off when GJ claims that NaG is his lover. Overall null.
Expresses discomfort with modgaming but partial claims that his role PM didn't explicitly say he was town. On the one hand I want to give him town points for bringing up that he wasn't sure without being prompted, but on the other this kicked off the modgaming thing that sent the whole thread into a tailspin for a few pages.
Asks GJ about a game where, I assume, there was an unusual pair of lovers.
I don't think he's posted his thoughts on Brinatoo yet.
Seems amenable to a lynch on me based on interactions and wagon analysis. This looks town, too.
Justifying his answers to Brinatoo's question. I'm having trouble reconciling scum!Blos with a lot of these posts now that I have him in iso and away from all the WIFOM.
This seems like a genuinely town reaction, and it was the first thing I thought of too when I read Seppel's claim.
Even given his displayed dislike for meta, he asks for Hunt games to compare to because he can't believe what he's hearing. I think scum!Blos might just ignore it instead of asking for homework.
Explaining what he was doing in #395. Everything makes sense, he's not even throwing shade.
Here's where the mod gaming really gets going. Blos gets town points from me for being the first to say Town wasn't explicitly mentioned in his role PM without prompting.
Still against modgaming but speculates on scum role PMs.
I didn't get much from this post.
More modgaming. I'm tempted to just skip this whole section, but there's more interesting stuff in here, so...
Nothing here.
He's basically teasing Hunger here.
Would prefer people didn't speculate on his main's identity. I understand why.
Slips in his full claim here. My sole reservation is that I would expect a veteran Mafia player to be a little more vigilant against accidentally full claiming.
And this almost makes it more suspicious because he's calling attention to it. Maybe I'm too paranoid though.
Wants to end the modgaming and get back to actually playing. I think this is a town tell, because scum would have us mod game the whole Dday if they could – we'd end up speed lynching town at the end most likely.
More meta, but it sounds like he's (half-)joking.
He's trying to push Proph to actually do something. If he's scum, maybe he's coaching because Proph looks so suspicious for /barning him. I get the feeling that he's actually trying to get Proph to play though.
Good reasoning with just a hint of suspicion at the end.
Still has some paranoia towards Tapping. Still feels like town here.
Seems frustrated that there's so many lurkers still.
This I was suspicious of, but his RVS vote on Proph was similar. I think he was joking (though maybe he would push a wagon on him for being lazy, I don't know).
Re-re-reiterates his case for Ghosting's benefit.
I think he's saying that Ghosting misinterpreting his post is sort of a misrep? I can see that, but I'm glad he doesn't push that attack here because Ghosting seems to have just misunderstood.
Not much here.
Now he's re-re-re-reiterating the case, but this is mostly prompted by Ghosting. I think Blos would be perfectly content if he never talked abut his scum read of Ghosting ever again, and Ghosting just keeps pushing him.
Meta defense of Proph again. Being mostly unfamiliar with both of them, I'm inclined to take him at his word (but with a pinch of salt and dose of paranoia).
I'm following his reasoning here.
He's trying to figure out Matowar and seems frustrated with his scummy behavior.
This is really bizarre juxtaposed with his earlier posts where he was considering Ghosting's meta, but I think Ghosting's more recent posts defending himself instead of scum hunting drove him here.
Not much here.
He's against flavor gaming Iso set-ups. He's still pushing Ghosting.
Expands on his scum read, drawing in Ghosting's recent posts.
Is trying to get at the alignments of his null/lean scum reads. Even though he's dedicated to a Ghosting lynch Today, he's looking for scum buddies and trying to get reads.
Now he (finally) trots out a recent game of his to display his town meta. I haven't gotten a chance to look at it yet, but I don't think I need to, now.
Seems frustrated that he couldn't keep his meta out of it.
Comments on his earlier link.
He's trying to get Ghosting to scum hunt.
Reiterates his scum read policy. I don't agree with it (I think there's a decent argument that interacting with your scum reads about your read on them can convince spectators), but it's his policy, not mine.
At the risk of sounding like Proph, /barn this.
His frustration that Ghosting is still badgering him about his scum read and that he refuses to scum hunt is coming in clear here.
More frustration about his meta.
This one is sort of confusing… Part of the problem is Ghosting's defense, but he doesn't care about the defense. Maybe he's just saying that even without the defense he would want Ghosting lynched and the defense makes him more sure.
Part of the above post, just reasoning and expanding on his thoughts from that one.
Still interacting with his null reads.
Now he's expressing some paranoia of Proph.
Frustration seems real here.
And that's it. Well, it's everything of substance anyway. Questions? Comments? Concerns? I need a long break after this one, I'll try to get my Ghosting PBPA up tonight but I won't promise anything.
@Bloscovi: Did you ever get around to reading that game Seppel linked you? If not, are you still considering Ghostings meta as a valid defense?
@Silver - I like the PBPA though I'm a little surprised that you went through the entirety of his posts and provided reasoning for most of them, rather than talk about a couple of specific posts that you found interesting and went a bit more in-depth. I read the PBPA and I still think that Bloscovi is town.
@Ghosting - Why do you suspect Seppel? Why do you call Matowar "scummy" instead of just him being scum? If you have a scumread on Bloscovi, do you think that Seppel and him can be scum together?
If there's any desire for it, I can clean that one up again and repost it, too. I didn't mean for you guys to read all the null posts and what not.
I am mentioned in your role PM as on your team basically.
First of all I'm not on your team.
And second why would it ever say that about another player? Role PM flavor does not confirm someone as town. Terrible question. What other answer is there than "I am not russian"
This is either fishing or just not thinking about the game.
@bloscovi
I would like to wait for kraj to come say something. I would think that the reason I claimed is rather obvious now, but as of the time kraj posted his suspicion of me not having figured it out yet is, I suppose, forgivable.
I'm curious if that (or the reaction to that post) will have changed his tune.
ghosting's note dump is basically meaningless. He calls reasons weak and posts bad, he throws shade, he buddies up to seppel and tapping.
I don't mean to imply with this wording that he is obviously scum, because all of those things can come from town too. But I do not understand how it makes seppel feel better about him. I have zero reason to believe bloscovi is scum. He is engaged, invested in his reads, and willing to put himself out there over them.
Now, if he is scum, and bussing the everloving crap out of ghosting, that would explain the willingness.
fwiw, townghosting probably means townbloscovi and scumghosting is meaningless with regards to blosc's alignment.
I don't think its likely bloscovi and proph are scum together. They've both been content to assume the other is town while expressing vague suspicion at the other for doing the same. This is likely to link them if either flips scum, and as such is not a +EV play if they are buddies.
But it is a useful shortcut if you are town and would like interact with someone before being sure of their alignment. And it is an easy way to interact with town if you are scum. Of those two, I think the former is most likely. Merely because I think their suspicion of one another was genuine and not just said for towncredit. This question wasn't for me, but yes.
Though I just think he is town full stop.
I also do not like you backing off bloscovi after asking this question.
VOTE GHOSTING though I am also quite interested in a hunger lynch.
brinatoo is next on my reread list. I think I mentioned before about his leading questions but I haven't gotten around to analysing yet.
A thing.
I've already flavor-claimed. I'm Q.
My role flavor explicitly says I'm friendly with Bond, so don't mind assisting with this mission.
So I mean.
???
I'm inclined to just ignore all flavor.
I guess it says 007, not Bond?
I don't know enough about the Bond universe to know if there could be another 007 lore-wise that would make things make sense.
But. Whatever.
In his first post after confirming (#34), he expresses suspicion of GJ. But then….
In his next post he seems to town clear him while agreeing with Blos. I agree with Blos/Proph that this post doesn't seem to come from a town mindset; it's almost like he already had a town read on GJ and is attempting to justify it.
Ghosting's defense here is basically “it's my meta, maybe I should try to play differently since I keep getting lynched.”
Another problem I have with this post is that Ghosting says GJ seemed like “someone who isn't really bothered by someone suggesting that what they're doing is scummy. I like that and think it makes someone town.” Of course, when he (Ghosting) gets back, he immediately jumps to his own defense even though his wagon is stalled out. More on that later, since it's the preponderance of his posts in thread.
As a fellow logic/evidence guy who proof reads and rewords almost every post I make at least once, I sympathize with most of this post but I don't think it's alignment indicative over all.
His next post (#75) says, basically, that Blos's misgivings are not logically sound. Now, I don't think Blos quite articulated what he was thinking (but maybe I'm wrong), and what I thought was that Ghosting says he likes ”to think of the logic and motivation behind a post” but didn't question Blos's alignment or motives at all.
Matowar said he was being defensive, and he goes (#79) “Who me? I'm not being defensive. Why would you think that?”
Here's the questions post. Proph thought this was a decently town post, but I don't really see it. His question to Blos is almost a misrep – in fact, Blos's phrasing almost makes it easier for Proph to squirm out of his answer later by saying “well, I didn't really think about it.”
The other things are just statements that are true and not really anything alignment indicative.
The only thing that's sort of townie is the way he tries to shut down the discussion about NaG's role, but then again it's also “Information instead of Analysis.” He's just stating that role speculation benefits scum more than town, which is probably true in a vacuum IF the role is a power role.
There's also his question at GJ, which looks like he might be trying to get in his head.
Next, he's gone for three days, posts that he'll be V/LA until Monday evening (seven days total) but he posts a quick question to Proph that basically boils down to “why are you attacking my playstyle?”
On Monday he PTAP because his wifi is down, then on Thursday he resumes posting (total absence: 9 days). I just wanted to do the math for reference, I'll let you guys decide if this is scum using excuses to lurk or if it's legitimate.
His first post after the break (#524) is a misinterpretation of one of Blos's posts trying to defend himself (which he attributes to playing while driving), then he writes this:
Which shows he's waaay more invested in Blos's scum read of him than he is in actually solving the game or scum hunting. I mean, it's possible that he really is town who doesn't understand why Blos is scum reading him, but then later on I explain pretty explicitly and get ignored.
This post is basically an attack on Bloscovi for refusing to engage him. On the town!Ghosting side, I don't know what he gets out of this exactly unless he's scum reading Blos and hasn't given any indication of that yet. On the scum!Ghosting side, he keeps Blos's attention off scum hunting for his buddies and tries to flip the conversation to being about Bloscovi instead of himself.
He's also willfully ignoring Blos's case against him by claiming it is made up and/or misconstrued. The case definitely exists, and while it isn't air tight flailing like this doesn't make him look better.
His next post (#548) is along the same lines; he calls the case “illegitimate” and throws shade on Blos for refusing to engage him.
He thanks Proph for asking him questions; it makes him feel involved in the game again. This is probably the towniest post I've seen (or will see) in this iso – scum wouldn't mind feeling disconnected from the game, they'd probably try to play it up.
In fact, to Ghosting's credit, I don't think he really uses his V/LA as an excuse for not knowing what's going on. He makes some comments about it, but not really in a defensive way.
I'm torn on his OMGUS vote on Blos (#552). On the one hand, I can see town!Ghosting seeing a similar line of attack being used against him in two games and suspecting his attacker. On the other, I don't think Blos's case is as terrible as Ghosting claims.
He says he's going to provide a T/S list (#553, continues flailing at Blos (#573), then engages or attacks Blos for another three posts (#578, 579, and 580) and finally in #580 says he won't clog up the thread with arguing against Blos anymore.
The catch-up post. This almost reads like he can't keep track of who he's throwing shade on and who he's town reading. It probably doesn't help that it isn't even in chronological order.
The most egregious example of him losing track is on me: He says my #404 makes him think I'm town, then later in his post he throws shade on me for my #447 (after that chronologically) and #371 (before it chronologically).
This post is half him passive-aggresively continuing the argument with Blos and half him actually commenting on stuff he's missed.
In his (#598) he throws shade on Proph, echoing TappingStones' thoughts on their relationship.
He tries to get me to jump back on the Blos wagon (#614 and #620), tries to convince me that if Blos is scum he might not be bussing him (lol, #623), then starts in on Blos again because he hasn't budged in his read (#634).
Here's a direct misrep of Blos's position…. Blos said he would talk to him about literally anything except the single scumread he has on Ghosting, and here's Ghosting saying Blos is refusing to interact with him at all and refusing to answer the hypothetical on those grounds.
The rest of this is recent, so no links.
He asks Seppel a question in a way that makes him sound suspicious of him, accuses Seppel's town read on Blos of “sounding crafted” (it worked against him on page two, right?), then backs down and unvotes Blos after trying to engage him on the scum read thing again for four or five posts.
Whew. I think my thoughts are pretty easy to track across these two PBPAs, but give me a minute to organize my thoughts more concisely and put up a new T/S list.
@Ghosting: If you want us to town read you, stop flailing against Blos. He isn't going to budge, and we don't want you to talk your way out of Blos's case anyway. Don't explain that you're town; show us you're town by scum hunting. We could use a real T/S list with explanations, for starters. I don't think you've given us more than the disjointed thoughts in #584.
Town
TappingStones
Lean Town
Bloscovi
Brinatoo
Huntzilla
Prophylaxis
Seppel
No Read
Hunger
imabusinessman
Mindreaver
Lean Scum
Matowar77
Probably Scum
Ghosting
Claimed Neutrals
Gentleman Johnny
not_a_gimmick
Lurking?
Kraj
Jobie
Changes from last T/S
I feel better about Brinatoo after his #617. His posts have been pretty good overall.
I followed Blos's thoughts almost perfectly when I read most of his posts. I still have some suspicions based around his self-claimed bussing meta, but I'm pretty comfortable putting him lean town at least for now. I shouldn't have let myself get sucked into the WIFOM in the first place - it made me way too suspicious with only tenuous reasoning at best.
Ghosting looks pretty awful in iso. Between his first few posts which sunk him with Blos and his most recent catch-up attempts and flailing I'd be pretty comfortable with a Ghosting lynch.
Unvote
Vote: Ghosting
My next effort will be reading Hunger, probably tomorrow or maybe later tonight.
Unless someone wants to sell me on him one way or the other.
Like just in all honesty, I really feel like Blosc has done a lot of stuff that isn't very townie, and everyone's just acting like I should drop my biggest scum read and not call him out for certain things. There were definitively times where he misrepped me and I'm fairly certain I already proved that. And reading Silver's case, I feel like I couldn't agree and that he went into it thinking Blosc was town and translating his posts in a manner to confirm that, whereas the opposite with me. Like the notes things, yes they're my notes lol, obviously I am saying whatever my thoughts are in there. If I read a post and it reads suspicious, I'll mark that in my notes. If a later one reads town, I'm also going to mark that; they're notes, not some crafted opinion or whatever I'm trying to make meticulous for the world to see.
As far as my absence, it wasn't just wifi. I really genuinely hope my absence isn't being used against me...I had an electronic music festival that was two days long, slept like the entire next day to recover (recovery took like 4 days total, but sooo worth it), wifi went out, electricity went out following day, had three exams, I have school every day and every day I don't I work, and I make sure to do my best to stay active and help out whenever possible. I even post in class so I don't just disappear again. Also, my classes are ridiculously hard, I'm a Biochem/Physics double major so it's a crazy workload lol.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
We all play mafia to have fun. Don't make other people feel bad for enjoying real life over a random internet forum game played with strangers.
Yeah, Silver is now firmly in 'will never lynch' territory for me.
(This is kind of OOG, and unrelated to this game in general, but thanks for replacing in, and actually playing the game. It's been a pleasure to play with you and I hope to see you around more in other games.)
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Matowar77
imabusinessman
Jobie
Kraj
Hunger
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There are almost definitely 2-3 scum in that cluster of 5 names. I'm conflicted on almost all of them.
Matowar - Scummy in a vacuum, but almost too brazen to be scum. Maybe I need to adjust my expectations of what I expect from similar players in their first scum games? I just keep reading through his ISO, and going 'Ugh, that reads horrible, but does he really make that post as scum? I don't...think so? Maybe?
imabusinessman - Useless. Blatantly claimed he was going to lurk and be scummy, and proceeded to do so, while taking the game off on tangents and contributing nothing. He's a terrible lynch, but is someone I'd kill in the night if I could. (The reasoning being he has a decent chance of being scum, but his behavior makes a wagon on him meaningless, because there's virtually nothing to learn from his interactions). There's an argument that scum would never play the way he has this game, but considering he's intentionally trying to create that very WiFOM, it's hard for me to reconcile it with any kind of town mindset I can fathom.
Jobie - ???. I've got literally nothing. He dropped his vote on Kraj and vanished. He's pushing nothing, and making minimal attempt to figure anything out. He's a fairly plausible scumbuddy of Ghosting for the way he dismissed the wagon on him in one of his few posts, maybe.
Kraj - I liked his push on Tapping, and liked the frustration and attempt at understanding. I did not like the push on Mindreaver, I did not like the push on NAG. His posts almost feel 'too' careful and reasonable at some points, and he hasn't had a push on someone that is likely to be scum yet. Reminding myself that I want to go through and look at the responses from people I asked to check out his ISO, both to help my read on him, and to help my read on /them/. If someone else wants to tackle that and collect the data points into something readable I'd love you forever. My time is very, very limited for a few days.
Hunger - The stuff with Role PM's is a thing. PoE is a thing. He's been perfectly reasonable, but I mean. That's a Hunger tell, not an alignment tell. I remember disliking some of his questions upon him catching up, because they felt empty, like he was going through the motions. So I need to go back and look at that again, and the followup. Ergh. I don't have time to keep creating more work for myself.
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TL;DR - I dunno lol. Ghosting is scum, but there's just not enough content from this cluster for me to have strong feelings about them. If someone can sell me on a strong town read on one of them, please do so.
Thanks for saying this.
I love mafia, I actually feel like I'm just experiencing tunnel vision for the first time, lol. In my mind, all I want to do is convince people that Blosc is scum. Everything he does, I've been doing my best to see as town, but am having a really hard time doing so. I understand though that at this point, if I want to help town and show that I'm town, even if Blosc is scum, pushing his case is only going to make things worse.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
I'm not holding your absence against you specifically, I just wanted to add it up for reference.
If you have a scum read on Blos, make your case for it. You have at least two sympathetic ears in Tapping and Hunt, who are both suspicious of him and town reading you. As it is, your case against Blos seems to be "he's been driving my wagon all game" and "he won't engage with me on his read of me."
I just think that your reaction to being scum read - with a stalled wagon, and especially when you said early game that you thought town would brush off being scum read and keep hunting - is not particularly helpful to town and makes you look really bad.
All of that said, the thought had crossed my mind that whichever of you I did first might bias me against the other one. If you think I'm being unfair, I'm certainly amenable to discussing my PBPA with you, though I'm not entirely certain that it would have made a real difference if I had done you first.
After I inevitably get shot n1 or n2, remember this post, and don't let people try to lynch Silver later in the game.
Dude is town.
That is not a thought scum has.
Thanks for the clarification, and I don't really mind, you also use it positively so it's not like you're doing so manipulatively (also it's far from your only point). I genuinely will never fake v/la or something in mafia, I think it's really poor sportsmanship and takes away from the game.
Reading this, I actually see why my read on Blosc is bad. There's one other major point, but those two are pretty poor reasons. Additionally, it proves you're paying attention, and this part of the post by you in general is making me feel pretty good about you.
Playstyle wise, if anyone ever thinks I'm scum, I always want to prove to them how it's not true. I'm all about creating discussion and seeking elaborated viewpoints in order to show that I'm not scum so we can stop wasting time and move on to the next person. I also feel like it helped me jump into the game and create a good set of reactions to work off as well (which we did, there's definitely a new chunk of interactions that didn't exist before). However, I think what I fail to realise is that while it's obvious to me I'm town, you guys are all reading my posts with suspicion, just like I read yours. I think I play a bit too carelessly and confidently, I guess? Like I assume you guys KNOW I'm town and that's why I'm all like "What?! How can you possibly think I'm scum?!"
If anything, I'm sure previous bias would have more impact than the order, and your cases are both good natured.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1