I have seen naked voting a lot in my mafia career. I have done it often, as town and scum. Taken at face value, it's completely null.
You're trying to assign a scum motive for it, without considering the townie side of things.
This nicely sums up my problem with TS's play, and his entire reaction to the pressure on him has been OMGUS, with flimsy or inconsistent logic. I've also seen scum implode to pressure on less evidence than this on day 1. If it were later in the game and I had made a full case on him and strongly felt he's scum, then I'd dismiss his defense as desperate flailing and push for his lynch. However, time and time again I've seen townies - particularly on day 1 - get stuck in the mindset that anyone attacking them must be scum because the only thing they know for sure is they are town. In fact, I just finished a game Manders ran on DiesToRemoval as scum and used that exact reaction to push a case on a townie. That's the read I get off of TS here and I'm reasonably certain he's town.
Unvote
Regarding my play history, I semi-retired years ago and only join a game once in a while. Return to Amistaria might be the most recent town game, and Cyberspace the scum game. I can easily name older, more memorable games if you want. I earned a town MVP in my very first game, Mushroom Kingdom, and in Inheritance. I pulled off a miracle mafia win in Fairytale mini, and as a wacky neutral in Sword of Truth. More?
Also, why do you ask?
This post is a total joke. Your attack against me was completely unfounded and I knocked it off the table without much effort. Your misreps on the other hand are unfortunate. Which parts are OMGUS. I didn't even vote you. I said some of your actions aren't things I consider town reactions or come from bad town.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
nothing has pinged me as red so far, and I don't imagine anybody is interested in townreads at this point.
Would you share these townreads?
And perhaps explain why no one would be interested in them?
As for bloscovi and the others, I'm not sure how thought processes are analogous to playstyle.
Its a bit easier to see with someone like bloscovi or matowar who just puts their thoughts out there, but even the endless yammering of ghosting or the entirely reactionary play of tappingstones can reveal how the donuts are made if you look hard enough.
Some players do things I consider untowny every game.
You seem to be going hard on people you see as not helping the town, but also show awareness that town does dumb ***** all the time.
So how do you make the distinction and keep from constantly pushing mislynches?
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Curiosity killed the cat. But for awhile, I was a suspect.
Kraj's backpedal is something to keep note of going forward. Blind voted me, tested the waters to see if enough people would jump on, no dice, so backpedals. It comes across as noob scum to me, so I'm gonna check out those games and see what I find.
FOS Kraj
Lean scum
Proph Didn't like his misrep of how I perceive Kraj seems like a very subtle and skillful way to ask suspicion against me without getting committed. Something I expect from an experienced player.
Kraj Got in over his head with a misread on me and his backpedal was awkward. Also it seems forced that he tried to promote some sort of award he got in a game that one asked about. Comes across as self conscious "I'm a good player damn it. Look at this game!"
lean town
Ghosting-Posting is consistent with the town games we've played together. Defending himself well and staying active, developing reads, etc.
Notagimmick-Coming across very natural and engaging in this game. Really like him telling people to get off theory. Scum can hide behind fluff like fighting about playstyle and he wanted to put that to rest.
Has anyone played with TappingStones before? Is 'legitimately insane' a common read people have on him?
How is voting for you and then explaining my vote "testing the waters"? How is my vote "completely unfounded" when I did, in fact, state a reason? How have you not OMGUS'd when you call me scum for voting you, and you vote Proph because he voted you? How am I backpedalling and "in over my head" when multiple people have agreed with my vote? How do you think a phony attack on you could have gone any better? You think you shut my attack down? Multiple people have expressed suspicion of you, but the only person who said they think you're town after this exchange is me. You want to convince me otherwise? By all means, keep attacking me and whoever else is suspicious of you while contributing nothing else.
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How do you think a phony attack on you could have gone any better?
You were trying to gauge a possible wagon, it wasn't working and you backpedaled hard. The strangest part was you trying to tell us how good you think you are. Like, what was that all about? If you are good and town(two unlikely propositions) you would be scum hunting right now and not trying to insult the people who have suspicion of you. The OMGUS is coming across phony.
You want to convince me otherwise? By all means, keep attacking me and whoever else is suspicious of you while contributing nothing else.
Threatening to come after me if I don't stop suspecting you? Like, have you played this game before? The point of the game is to hunt and kill the scum team. I'm not going to back down from my early reads just because you want to throw threats at me. Now if you actually start reading the game, scum hunting and not throwing around personal attacks perhaps you wont take so much flak. Right now you aren't doing anything I usually see from town players.
Has anyone played with TappingStones before? Is 'legitimately insane' a common read people have on him?
How is voting for you and then explaining my vote "testing the waters"? How is my vote "completely unfounded" when I did, in fact, state a reason? How have you not OMGUS'd when you call me scum for voting you, and you vote Proph because he voted you? How am I backpedalling and "in over my head" when multiple people have agreed with my vote? How do you think a phony attack on you could have gone any better? You think you shut my attack down? Multiple people have expressed suspicion of you, but the only person who said they think you're town after this exchange is me. You want to convince me otherwise? By all means, keep attacking me and whoever else is suspicious of you while contributing nothing else.
He is an intersting one. I don't know if I have seen a scum game from him, but the tell from town I have seen is that he is always trying to solve the game, but does it using techiques that tend to draw ire from the other players.
I am getting really nervous with all the town and scum reads so early. I never understood how people could clear people that quickly. Only strong town read I have is gimmick. Ghosting is a like a light scum read, and even then, I want to see more before I commit to it.
Hmm we don't get to know what someone was carrying when they die That feels incredibly un-American, Freedom of Information is a part of Freedom Iso!
@Proph: I don't really get how to read RVSs yet I figured they were just a sort of jokey way to get and conversation and thus the game going. Hardwood reads like a old player happy to be back and playing a game for the first time in a while, Ghosting seems to be over analyzing a very small amount of information that probably won't be relevant for too long but then again he doesn't seem to be wrong on GJ. (Although ACE ATTORNEY ISN'T OVER YET GHOSTING YOU PLONK!) He may just be trying to look like he's contributing a lot without actually giving much input but I think I'll wait till a bit later on before I consider him for the Possibly Scum category, he's acted like this before. I don't like Bloscovi's start, it's too aggressive and blunt, I have immediate WIFOM as to whether that's a scum move or not. You get nothing from me until later Proph I'm biased towards you since you were so good as town in Prisoner's. I'll wait for some reads outside of RVS from you, ask me again then.
@Matowar-What did Proph do in Prisoner's to solidify himself as a town read?
Could you quote and react to the parts of Bloscovi's posts you don't like? I'm sure exactly which parts you see as being off.
Has anyone played with TappingStones before? Is 'legitimately insane' a common read people have on him?
How is voting for you and then explaining my vote "testing the waters"? How is my vote "completely unfounded" when I did, in fact, state a reason? How have you not OMGUS'd when you call me scum for voting you, and you vote Proph because he voted you? How am I backpedalling and "in over my head" when multiple people have agreed with my vote? How do you think a phony attack on you could have gone any better? You think you shut my attack down? Multiple people have expressed suspicion of you, but the only person who said they think you're town after this exchange is me. You want to convince me otherwise? By all means, keep attacking me and whoever else is suspicious of you while contributing nothing else.
He is an intersting one. I don't know if I have seen a scum game from him, but the tell from town I have seen is that he is always trying to solve the game, but does it using techiques that tend to draw ire from the other players.
I am getting really nervous with all the town and scum reads so early. I never understood how people could clear people that quickly. Only strong town read I have is gimmick. Ghosting is a like a light scum read, and even then, I want to see more before I commit to it.
Two people also haven't posted as of yet.
@GJ-Which town and scum reads are making you nervous? Which do you think are people who have been "cleared" by others? Reading through I haven't had the impression that many people have cleared others.
Ghosting was the big one. He had three/four listed town reads pre 100 posts. I know day 1 is really volitle, but I feel most people should be getting feelings or lean reads, where Ghosting has been coming off with the tone of having harder reads.
Proph's response to Blos's "hit list" had the same kind of feel (three probably town reads and a scum). Aren't you a little nervous yourself with all these declared reads?
Ghosting was the big one. He had three/four listed town reads pre 100 posts. I know day 1 is really volitle, but I feel most people should be getting feelings or lean reads, where Ghosting has been coming off with the tone of having harder reads.
Proph's response to Blos's "hit list" had the same kind of feel (three probably town reads and a scum). Aren't you a little nervous yourself with all these declared reads?
I hadn't considered it from that angle. I was really curious about people trying to jump on me from the word go just because I have questions about James Bond outing himself seemingly for no reason. Then Kraj started having a meltdown so there was that.
@Ghosting-What's your read on me?
@GJ-Oh, I almost forgot. If you had to send three people "to trial" right now who would they be?
I read Kraj's last post, I really am not getting a "meltdown" vibe from him. Why did you mention that, and what were you referring to?
His backing off was done in a way that seemed like smoke-signals. Talking about how great he is and trying to wash his hands of the vote. Then him claiming proph voted me and that I OMGUS because of his "vote". Then he says he was the only one townreading me when at least not a gimmick had already had lean town.
Town do strange things but they usually don't try to directly lie to make themselves look better which is my observation at the moment.
My last game that just ended, Twinborn, I hope has showed a trend of lurkers often being scum, and MTGS just not chasing enough (read my mod notes, towards the end of the day). I don't expect Seppel to die if he is town, but it will force him to care, just like he did in the Invitational.
Proph has pinged me twice now, and I want to pursue him more. When I get home, I will likely have a few questions.
Rhand has been caught as scum in all three games I've played with him and he was VERY lurky in all of the games. As you say people don't chase the lurkers hard enough, I've lamented in several games that on Day one and Day two on MTGS the people that post the most always get called scum and pick up votes while scum can just hang out and make a post like "Been busy, will catch up soon".
@HWP-#121 should have a lot of people scratching their head and trying to dig deeper. My spidersense is really tingling right now on Kraj. It feels very similar to the feeling I got from the Oceanblack slot in "Mafia Classic" who flipped scum in that game. I was on him from day one and tons of people were like "He's so town. I like how he's playing". I kept pushing at him and eventually we lynched him to beat the scum.
It is curious how you jumped from a platform of lurker pressure directly to one of the more (at least in pure numbers) active players. This the optimal way to establish policy is not.
Policy of lynching =/= always lynching lurkers. There are scum who can be active (read SC in the Invitational had the largest post count). My point in that policy is that lurkers are often ignored, and TS is right, the townies are the only ones talking and someone always thinks one of the talkers can be scum. And my earier point stands: we are still playing a deck short a couple of cards.
@HWP-#121 should have a lot of people scratching their head and trying to dig deeper. My spidersense is really tingling right now on Kraj. It feels very similar to the feeling I got from the Oceanblack slot in "Mafia Classic" who flipped scum in that game. I was on him from day one and tons of people were like "He's so town. I like how he's playing". I kept pushing at him and eventually we lynched him to beat the scum.
Well do keep in mind that that was a different player in a different game, and that similarities rarely neatly transition like that.
Right. But the important part is the feeling that this player is invoking.
If I said I wanted Ghosting, Tapping, Kraj, and Not A Gimmick all dead, what would your immediate, instinctual response be? The literal first thing that comes to mind, don't think about it.
Can you elaborate the desire for the bolded and also explain how it doesn't increase the chances of allowing you to lock him into a view?
Now I at least have something to work with if I at some point get knocked off. We have at least two instances of non-town mindset interacting with me.
Do you think it makes sense for Proph to so openly defend Kraj in this manner, though? It's so far from discreet that if Proph was town and Kraj flipped scum, it'd look incredibly suspicious, especially so early on.
Can't come from a town perspective? Even Kraj who is voting me said he say the town mindset in that question. There actually isn't a scum motivation to ask that question. From my point of view James Bond is likely one of our big power roles. I suppose there are some roles where Bond would be safe to claim on day one maybe he has something cool like the first time he would die it redirects some sort of evasion plus counter attack flavor? Even so I think it would be best to at least let the game develop a bit first.
Could be a VT trying to create value for us down the road but that would risk a possible counter-claim and maybe things spiral out of control and we have a mislynch. It's just a ton of WIFOM. No one else has volunteered their role so it's absolutely worthy of discussion.
Let's say that Bond is a town role. Do you think further discussion benefits town or scum more? Hypothetically, let's imagine James Bond is the doctor. If he tells us this, he's dead tonight. You can imagine similar scenarios.
This nicely sums up my problem with TS's play, and his entire reaction to the pressure on him has been OMGUS, with flimsy or inconsistent logic. I've also seen scum implode to pressure on less evidence than this on day 1. If it were later in the game and I had made a full case on him and strongly felt he's scum, then I'd dismiss his defense as desperate flailing and push for his lynch. However, time and time again I've seen townies - particularly on day 1 - get stuck in the mindset that anyone attacking them must be scum because the only thing they know for sure is they are town. In fact, I just finished a game Manders ran on DiesToRemoval as scum and used that exact reaction to push a case on a townie. That's the read I get off of TS here and I'm reasonably certain he's town.
Unvote
Regarding my play history, I semi-retired years ago and only join a game once in a while. Return to Amistaria might be the most recent town game, and Cyberspace the scum game. I can easily name older, more memorable games if you want. I earned a town MVP in my very first game, Mushroom Kingdom, and in Inheritance. I pulled off a miracle mafia win in Fairytale mini, and as a wacky neutral in Sword of Truth. More?
Also, why do you ask?
Having played with TS more than once, I can verify that his play thus far and what you're perceiving as OMGUS votes is in fact within his town playstyle. I'm reading him very much as town, and think that when you consider the motivations behind his posting as well as the raw emotion, it's clear he is also town in this game.
I am getting really nervous with all the town and scum reads so early. I never understood how people could clear people that quickly. Only strong town read I have is gimmick. Ghosting is a like a light scum read, and even then, I want to see more before I commit to it.
Do you then also feel that Proph's pushing for me to vote, as well as to ask people questions, is inherently town or scum? Or a null read? Asking you this specifically because you said you're nervous about all the early town and scum reads.
Vote: Jobie Because it was a good idea in Mushroom Kingdom.
First off, I don't even remember Mushroom Kingdom, but looking at my stats it looks like that game started me on a 3 year losing streak... Great.
Second, the first RVS-style vote after RVS has started to end makes me sad and doesn't give me warm fuzzies.
Seppel when are you going to actually play the game?
Day 3.
This seems oddly optimistic by you Seppel. You sure you didn't mean Day 4?
RE: Our two wagons to date:
Hardwood: Hardwood got railed for tonal reasons which seemed weak at best. The pace of the wagon is interesting, 3 votes in 7 posts to bring H_P to 5 votes.
Tapping: Tapping gonna Tapping. I've done little more than skimming (CTRL+F "vote"; CTRL+F "Jobie" ad nauseam) but it seems like this wagon arose due to weak pretenses for a read made by Tapping
BONUS Wagon: Ghosting has received attention for being overly wordy in an explanation *yawn*
Vote: Mindreaver
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Mafia Stats (10-22 Overall) Random Mafia 2 Town MVP '08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
He is an intersting one. I don't know if I have seen a scum game from him, but the tell from town I have seen is that he is always trying to solve the game, but does it using techiques that tend to draw ire from the other players.
I am getting really nervous with all the town and scum reads so early. I never understood how people could clear people that quickly. Only strong town read I have is gimmick. Ghosting is a like a light scum read, and even then, I want to see more before I commit to it.
Right. But the important part is the feeling that this player is invoking.
Since you seem to be focused on others cases and not mine, should I think that you at least acknowledged my content by not acknowledging it on post#96? "Kraj and Mindreaver both have failed to point out a reason that I am scum."
@Proph: What is your opinion on paranoia early in a game?
[quote from="TappingStones »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/700341-goldeneye-mafia-day-1-frigate?comment=102"]
Now I at least have something to work with if I at some point get knocked off. We have at least two instances of non-town mindset interacting with me.
Do you think it makes sense for Proph to so openly defend Kraj in this manner, though? It's so far from discreet that if Proph was town and Kraj flipped scum, it'd look incredibly suspicious, especially so early on.
I don't think it hurts Proph to defend in that manner as scum, no. I also disagree that it looks incredibly suspicious if Kraj flips scum. My read on Proph isn't based in any part on his assurances about Kraj. They are based on his interactions with me.
Can't come from a town perspective? Even Kraj who is voting me said he say the town mindset in that question. There actually isn't a scum motivation to ask that question. From my point of view James Bond is likely one of our big power roles. I suppose there are some roles where Bond would be safe to claim on day one maybe he has something cool like the first time he would die it redirects some sort of evasion plus counter attack flavor? Even so I think it would be best to at least let the game develop a bit first.
Could be a VT trying to create value for us down the road but that would risk a possible counter-claim and maybe things spiral out of control and we have a mislynch. It's just a ton of WIFOM. No one else has volunteered their role so it's absolutely worthy of discussion.
Let's say that Bond is a town role. Do you think further discussion benefits town or scum more? Hypothetically, let's imagine James Bond is the doctor. If he tells us this, he's dead tonight. You can imagine similar scenarios.
Does "doctor" James Bond come out and say "Here I am"? Your questions are required to make sense and this one doesn't. The doctor doesn't want to do anything of this sort. I'm just at a loss to how this is useful to town in anyway. I'm going to file it away as town vanilla who hopes to eat a nightkill for now but I'm still troubled about revealing for no reason.
Right. But the important part is the feeling that this player is invoking.
Since you seem to be focused on others cases and not mine, should I think that you at least acknowledged my content by not acknowledging it on post#96? "Kraj and Mindreaver both have failed to point out a reason that I am scum."
What? If you have a case against me go ahead and present it. I'm not likely to spend much more time defending myself today though unless something new happens. I have far too much work to do with all the juicy interactions we've gotten over the last 16+ hours. The only thing I can say is that I feel no pressure from your vote.
Right. But the important part is the feeling that this player is invoking.
Since you seem to be focused on others cases and not mine, should I think that you at least acknowledged my content by not acknowledging it on post#96? "Kraj and Mindreaver both have failed to point out a reason that I am scum."
What? If you have a case against me go ahead and present it. I'm not likely to spend much more time defending myself today though unless something new happens. I have far too much work to do with all the juicy interactions we've gotten over the last 16+ hours. The only thing I can say is that I feel no pressure from your vote.
Okay, so you are ignoring my post on #87 because of "no pressure from your vote." Brilliant.
Why Hunger? It's not possible to have a meaningful opinion on him. We could instead talk about imabuisinessman's avatar WIFOM decisions if we are that bored. Would be more exciting than nothing and/or dredging up the Bond roleclaim discussion again, at the very least!
Right. But the important part is the feeling that this player is invoking.
Since you seem to be focused on others cases and not mine, should I think that you at least acknowledged my content by not acknowledging it on post#96? "Kraj and Mindreaver both have failed to point out a reason that I am scum."
What? If you have a case against me go ahead and present it. I'm not likely to spend much more time defending myself today though unless something new happens. I have far too much work to do with all the juicy interactions we've gotten over the last 16+ hours. The only thing I can say is that I feel no pressure from your vote.
Okay, so you are ignoring my post on #87 because of "no pressure from your vote." Brilliant.
Why Hunger? It's not possible to have a meaningful opinion on him. We could instead talk about imabuisinessman's avatar WIFOM decisions if we are that bored. Would be more exciting than nothing and/or dredging up the Bond roleclaim discussion again, at the very least!
I'll say after I get an answer.
There is nothing meaningful in #87. You don't like the order in which I presented some thoughts/concerns I have about the early claim. You say it's from a "heavy scum mindset". Whatever that means. You haven't presented in any meaningful way why my words aren't town. This is a low level mistake that happens often in Mafia, namely "Player x does things I wouldn't do, therefore I think he's scum". You are free to pursue this line of attack against me but it's too weak. It's not indicative of anything.
Is there anything else you want to discuss while I'm here?
I could have sworn I said to stop speculating about my role. You may privately think that I am VT or a doctor or whatever, but saying it in thread is hereby forbidden.
This I can vote on! VOTE:Proph You blatantly misrepped me here and seem to be trying to apply pressure on me without actually voting me (something that you say you don't like others to do).
This post is a total joke. Your attack against me was completely unfounded and I knocked it off the table without much effort. Your misreps on the other hand are unfortunate.
Reading is tech! Proph has never voted for me in this game. But nice try with the misrep.
I don't think you understand why misrepresentation is a scumtell. When scum selectively edit the facts to try to push a mislynch, its much more subtle than getting something wrong. They twist motivations and repaint a picture of your actions with a wolfish glint in your eye.
In fact, what you have called misreps in this game are mild towntells. They are cases in which proph and kraj are reading the driving force behind posts rather than the actual votes, which scum is less likely to do.
Would you share these townreads?
And perhaps explain why no one would be interested in them?
Not currently. None of them are at both at risk of being lynched and additionaly have demonstrated inability to defend themselves properly, so it is not required. Lynching by Process of Elimination Day 1 is highly uncommon, but if it came to that I would also share them if they help narrow it down.
I'm actually going to have to insist. Its not about them, its about you.
Please commit to an opinion.
Also, you can turn the censor off. And you probably ******* should.
That is not to say I'm in love with his posts, I object to the usage of his own scum play in another game to explain your town play in this game (seriously what, I'm almost convincing myself I must have misunderstood everything about it as it makes absolutely no sense) in #121 and I also dislike the appeal to other players (not even as an Appeal to Authority) in #127.
On that note, Kraj I would appreciate a deeper explanation of what your #121's first paragraph is exactly. ELI5, if possible.
I don't know what ELI5 means.
Regarding 127: my initial read on TS is town based on his reactions to my vote and reason. I don't see a scum trying to turn a good wagon around on his attacker, I see a townie who is convinced his attacker must be scum. When I read his subsequent attacks on me, though, I don't see any actual logic. He's accusing me of tells that don't fit his explanations, and presenting facts that - as far as I'm concerned - don't fit reality. Such as accusing me of testing the waters and then backpedaling when I failed to start a wagon. Except I did start a wagon, and other people did agree that TS is suspicious. He's acting as if I made a grande case on him, declared him scum, and then backed off for no reason, when all I did was poke at him for one suspicious thing on page 2 and then got a town read based on his reaction.
So my situation is im being attacked by someone who I think is town, but whose reasoning looks completly unhinged to me. If most people agree with me then id rather resume scumhunting elsewhere, because there's no point in engaging someone who finds fault in literaly everything I say.
If people agree with him, however, then that's an indicator that I'm the one not seeing things properly, and I need to address that. Hence, my question to the players.
Regarding 121, I'm not 100% sure what you're asking but I think you want me to explain my town read on TS further. This early in the game, before some players have even posted, there is very little information to work with. Scum tend to lurk and barn while the townies attack each other. Time and time again I've seen town players react to being attacked by concluding their attacker is scum. Its OMGUS behavior, but the reason is because all they know at this point in the game is they are town and scum want them to get lynched. Percieving your attacker to be scum is a common reaction from a town mindset.
The alternative explanation is TS is scum and panicked at being pressured over something he probably thought looked like legitimate scumhunting. But that assumes a big overreaction on his part when he had plenty of less extreme options. It's plausible, but a lot less common than the Townie explanation.
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That is not to say I'm in love with his posts, I object to the usage of his own scum play in another game to explain your town play in this game (seriously what, I'm almost convincing myself I must have misunderstood everything about it as it makes absolutely no sense) in #121 and I also dislike the appeal to other players (not even as an Appeal to Authority) in #127.
On that note, Kraj I would appreciate a deeper explanation of what your #121's first paragraph is exactly. ELI5, if possible.
I don't know what ELI5 means.
Regarding 127: my initial read on TS is town based on his reactions to my vote and reason. I don't see a scum trying to turn a good wagon around on his attacker, I see a townie who is convinced his attacker must be scum. When I read his subsequent attacks on me, though, I don't see any actual logic. He's accusing me of tells that don't fit his explanations, and presenting facts that - as far as I'm concerned - don't fit reality. Such as accusing me of testing the waters and then backpedaling when I failed to start a wagon. Except I did start a wagon, and other people did agree that TS is suspicious. He's acting as if I made a grande case on him, declared him scum, and then backed off for no reason, when all I did was poke at him for one suspicious thing on page 2 and then got a town read based on his reaction.
So my situation is im being attacked by someone who I think is town, but whose reasoning looks completly unhinged to me. If most people agree with me then id rather resume scumhunting elsewhere, because there's no point in engaging someone who finds fault in literaly everything I say.
If people agree with him, however, then that's an indicator that I'm the one not seeing things properly, and I need to address that. Hence, my question to the players.
Regarding 121, I'm not 100% sure what you're asking but I think you want me to explain my town read on TS further. This early in the game, before some players have even posted, there is very little information to work with. Scum tend to lurk and barn while the townies attack each other. Time and time again I've seen town players react to being attacked by concluding their attacker is scum. Its OMGUS behavior, but the reason is because all they know at this point in the game is they are town and scum want them to get lynched. Percieving your attacker to be scum is a common reaction from a town mindset.
The alternative explanation is TS is scum and panicked at being pressured over something he probably thought looked like legitimate scumhunting. But that assumes a big overreaction on his part when he had plenty of less extreme options. It's plausible, but a lot less common than the Townie explanation.
Why did you say that I OMGUS at Proph for voting for me, when he didn't vote for me at all? And you have been called into question by three other players now, so there is something based in reality to what I'm getting at and many others take enough notice to engage on it and question some of the peculiarities of your posts. Why did you say you were the only person with a town read on me when others had already called me town?
You see old sport, you stepped into it a little bit here. What we are trying to determine now is if you were just being sloppy as scum or doing the typical "He plays different than me so I'm going to attack him" which is often town.
So to put it another way are you just playing sloppy or are you the type of person that attacks people who play differently than they do? Interested in you answering all of the questions asked to you with TRUE answers, and no more misreps, that would be awesome!
There is nothing meaningful in #87. You don't like the order in which I presented some thoughts/concerns I have about the early claim. You say it's from a "heavy scum mindset". Whatever that means. You haven't presented in any meaningful way why my words aren't town. This is a low level mistake that happens often in Mafia, namely "Player x does things I wouldn't do, therefore I think he's scum". You are free to pursue this line of attack against me but it's too weak. It's not indicative of anything.
Is there anything else you want to discuss while I'm here?
No. Yes. Leaning Heavily- meaning I believe it was most likely scum mindset. The other case being as what Kraj described in #127 as legitimately insane. Hell it could be a combination of the two with what I'm seeing. "you haven't presented"- I don't think any words could be town (Unless you meant phrases). But I'm analyzing your posting behavior. Then you essentially called my reasoning a low level mistake and think my method is "Player x does things I wouldn't do, therefore I think he's scum." Again, posting behavior not a "if i was in his shoes" scenario. This coupled with your reactionary play after just dug the hole deeper for me.
There is nothing meaningful in #87. You don't like the order in which I presented some thoughts/concerns I have about the early claim. You say it's from a "heavy scum mindset". Whatever that means. You haven't presented in any meaningful way why my words aren't town. This is a low level mistake that happens often in Mafia, namely "Player x does things I wouldn't do, therefore I think he's scum". You are free to pursue this line of attack against me but it's too weak. It's not indicative of anything.
Is there anything else you want to discuss while I'm here?
No. Yes. Leaning Heavily- meaning I believe it was most likely scum mindset. The other case being as what Kraj described in #127 as legitimately insane. Hell it could be a combination of the two with what I'm seeing. "you haven't presented"- I don't think any words could be town (Unless you meant phrases). But I'm analyzing your posting behavior. Then you essentially called my reasoning a low level mistake and think my method is "Player x does things I wouldn't do, therefore I think he's scum." Again, posting behavior not a "if i was in his shoes" scenario. This coupled with your reactionary play after just dug the hole deeper for me.
Did you grow up in China?
@Brinatoo-legitimately insane? If that wasn't a personal attack I would just ignore it as newb town ignorance. But the fact that you are going to follow up with a blatantly persona attack on someone you don't know is really low class on your part. Considering I'm being heavily town-read by the players who aren't making silly, illogical, rude attacks on others that would point to Kraj and your play being where the problem lies.
But I wont be engaging with you going forward if you are going to use rude personal attacks on day one of a forum game of mafia. I'm assuming Kraj must have a history of being rude because he actually references it in his signature, which is unfortunate.
I've only read the post above. And at first I was just going to say that TS and Brinatoo were unaligned, but after reading Brinatoo's post in full and TS's reply, I also think TS is town and Brinatoo is scum.
Let's say that Bond is a town role. Do you think further discussion benefits town or scum more? Hypothetically, let's imagine James Bond is the doctor. If he tells us this, he's dead tonight. You can imagine similar scenarios.
Does "doctor" James Bond come out and say "Here I am"? Your questions are required to make sense and this one doesn't. The doctor doesn't want to do anything of this sort. I'm just at a loss to how this is useful to town in anyway. I'm going to file it away as town vanilla who hopes to eat a nightkill for now but I'm still troubled about revealing for no reason.
This conversation is getting so annoying. Stop being so literal. Obviously, we're talking a role that wants attention. He didn't say "he's a doctor" he said "imagine he's a doctor" and "you can imagine similar scenarios".
The reason you're "not getting a good argument" for why people thought your actions were scummy (and I only mean that answering your question benefited scum more than town), is because laying out exactly what I'm thinking ALSO benefits scum more than town. So continue to strawman every argument against you into "well I still don't see a reason for it because your arguments are vague" if you want. But I think there are legitimate reasons to drop the whole thing for now. I'm not convinced that you didn't want more info about his role for nefarious purposes, but I'm also not saying you're definitely scum beyond redemption. I don't have a strong read on anything yet, you're just the best place to put that vote, because I think that was a bad line of questioning from a town PoV. The fact that you've been so belligerent about it, is actually making me rethink a bit. In short, I'm not ready to lynch you, but I like the pressure there for now, until somebody else is worthy of it.
Let me throw this out there, and I think we'll both agree:
I don't want a D1 full claim from NAG, and I don't see us resolving your concerns without it or a bunch of speculation that only benefits scum.
@Jobie: Kinda weird not to see reasoning behind the vote, care to elaborate?
There is nothing meaningful in #87. You don't like the order in which I presented some thoughts/concerns I have about the early claim. You say it's from a "heavy scum mindset". Whatever that means. You haven't presented in any meaningful way why my words aren't town. This is a low level mistake that happens often in Mafia, namely "Player x does things I wouldn't do, therefore I think he's scum". You are free to pursue this line of attack against me but it's too weak. It's not indicative of anything.
Is there anything else you want to discuss while I'm here?
No. Yes. Leaning Heavily- meaning I believe it was most likely scum mindset. The other case being as what Kraj described in #127 as legitimately insane. Hell it could be a combination of the two with what I'm seeing. "you haven't presented"- I don't think any words could be town (Unless you meant phrases). But I'm analyzing your posting behavior. Then you essentially called my reasoning a low level mistake and think my method is "Player x does things I wouldn't do, therefore I think he's scum." Again, posting behavior not a "if i was in his shoes" scenario. This coupled with your reactionary play after just dug the hole deeper for me.
Did you grow up in China?
@Brinatoo-legitimately insane? If that wasn't a personal attack I would just ignore it as newb town ignorance. But the fact that you are going to follow up with a blatantly persona attack on someone you don't know is really low class on your part. Considering I'm being heavily town-read by the players who aren't making silly, illogical, rude attacks on others that would point to Kraj and your play being where the problem lies.
But I wont be engaging with you going forward if you are going to use rude personal attacks on day one of a forum game of mafia. I'm assuming Kraj must have a history of being rude because he actually references it in his signature, which is unfortunate.
No it wasn't and I apologize if you mistook it for a personal attack. I don't think it's a derogatory statement and I think you also have to understand where I'm coming from with this. I am trying to understand your methods, scum or town. Insane is synonymous with eclectic to me. Heck, irl I've had people I've known that fall under this category. In particular there was someone very close to me that literally was clinically insane. Do I think it is something to poke fun at? No, not at all. Do I think it can help to understand where said person is coming from? Yes. But if you can't engage with me or treat me/my posts with any respect, I agree we probably can't work together.
I was also asking where you grew up so I'd know if English was your second language, I hadn't taken into account foreigners speaking out of order too. It's a common occurrence I've seen in my personal experience.
Why did you say that I OMGUS at Proph for voting for me, when he didn't vote for me at all?
Hi. Maybe if I respond to you directly you will respond to me.
What you did WAS omgus. Proph was probing you, whether you claim to feel pressure or not, and you responded by scumreading him.
The problem is that omgus, like coaching, is not a real scumtell. It is just as likely to come from a villager, as explained quite adequately by kraj in #153
You have said more than once that I have called you town, which is not true. A misrep, by your seeming definition.
I am still rather neutral on you, but I did think the early scumreads were a bit silly.
I do think that in order to be a true asset your team, you have to work with us and perhaps try not to be so confrontational.
Now will you answer my question in #125 and either respond in some way or just think very hard about the part of #152 thats directed at you?
after reading Brinatoo's post in full...Brinatoo is scum.
Will you explain this before Day 3? Because I cannot hold my breath that long.
I have brinatoo (and kraj) as lightly town because they seem, at least to me, to be trying to understand why they cannot see eye to eye with tappingstones.
This is almost certainly a fakable interaction, but it is a good sign.
I'm sorry, I thought with reads you meant explanations which are a no-go, but if you just want me to go on record then I can just say that at this point TappingStones and you are as town as my Day 1 read is going to get. Kraj and Mindreaver are probably town. Matowar is a slight town-lean, but nothing groundbreaking and I'm still looking at him. The rest of the playerbase is varying shades of null or afk.
Did that do it for you? Didn't think so.
Why yes, that does do it for me.
Thank you.
Why are explanations a no-go? I'm all for keeping some reasoning close to the vest, but this sounds like a hard and fast rule against sharing your thoughts.
Is that for Day 1 townreads only? All early reads? Or will you just be seppeling all game?
The reason you're "not getting a good argument" for why people thought your actions were scummy (and I only mean that answering your question benefited scum more than town), is because laying out exactly what I'm thinking ALSO benefits scum more than town. So continue to strawman every argument against you into "well I still don't see a reason for it because your arguments are vague" if you want. But I think there are legitimate reasons to drop the whole thing for now. I'm not convinced that you didn't want more info about his role for nefarious purposes, but I'm also not saying you're definitely scum beyond redemption. I don't have a strong read on anything yet, you're just the best place to put that vote, because I think that was a bad line of questioning from a town PoV. The fact that you've been so belligerent about it, is actually making me rethink a bit. In short, I'm not ready to lynch you, but I like the pressure there for now, until somebody else is worthy of it.
Actually, for all that ghosting and tappingstones can be a bit of a chore to read through, I do enjoy the reactions they get.
This is not how scum backs off a townie. Mindreaver is unlikely to be mafia unless tappingstones is too.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Curiosity killed the cat. But for awhile, I was a suspect.
I tried to read through, but I have a headache, and TappingStones' posts make me want to put a bullet into my temple.
VOTE:Bloscovi.
My vote is staying here all game for two reasons that I absolutely won't go into but I hope everyone would follow me here. Just have faith.
Some players do things I consider untowny every game.
You seem to be going hard on people you see as not helping the town, but also show awareness that town does dumb ***** all the time.
So how do you make the distinction and keep from constantly pushing mislynches?
You have to be careful. Feel free to read through my previous games. My final vote of the day is almost never on a towny. I push back on behavior that I find strange and try to consider it from town and scum perspectives. From my short Mafia experience here's how it goes:Day one people attack those that are posting consistently. The lurkers are forgotten like they don't even exist. And a couple people will say that nearly anything someone does is scummy. I don't mind having people suspect or vote me early on, because as you said it provides good interaction. To start the game I also only know my own alignment so it's good to have players attack me because I don't have to worry if it's scum theater or whatnot. You the knowledge of your own alignment to your advantage when possible.
Next players on this site like to tell others they are scum or insane bad, etc if they do something they don't like or that they wouldn't do. Watch out for this. I think this is the time where you are most likely to find some useful information slip.
If you don't want to lead mislynches you have to be scum hunting and you have to be willing to put your ego aside and let some reads fall by the wayside.
I tried to read through, but I have a headache, and TappingStones' posts make me want to put a bullet into my temple.
VOTE:Bloscovi.
My vote is staying here all game for two reasons that I absolutely won't go into but I hope everyone would follow me here. Just have faith.
I saw a bunch of posts about lurking this game being more likely to be scum. I'm officially and intentionally lurking this game. This has been a public service announcement that I'm intentionally engaging in a scummy behavior and am calling attention to it.
I've only read the post above. And at first I was just going to say that TS and Brinatoo were unaligned, but after reading Brinatoo's post in full and TS's reply, I also think TS is town and Brinatoo is scum.
@Seppel-What about Brinatoo's posts stood out to you?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It's why I want you to vote - so that information is on record, and can be analyzed later in the game to help determine your alignment. Sure, people can vote quickly with little reasoning and then hold those opinions, but IMO that's an unfair representation of the MTGS meta. There is still a lot to analyze, such as conviction, who just hopped on the wagon, who was in opposition to it, etc.
I's interesting you say that, because in the Invitational, you, Wheat, and Chris manipulated the votes to make your buses look stronger. I think you should pay more attention to independent action and motive.
Quote from HWP »
I was just pointing out the irony in saying towns forget about lurkers, and subsequently dropping the topic of lurkers in favor of a different one. I was not trying to insinuate much more than that.
But you must have motive to say that. I don't think you were just trying to be cheeky.
Quote from Ghosting »
Do you then also feel that Proph's pushing for me to vote, as well as to ask people questions, is inherently town or scum? Or a null read? Asking you this specifically because you said you're nervous about all the early town and scum reads.
I do not have an inherent problem with Proph pushing you to vote. I would say it's a null read, but honestly this early, I don't know why he would point you out. I would rather just let you hang yourself. For instance, if I were to say I catch scum by how often they vote or unvote a certain player, what do you think a scum is more likely to not do?
Can you explain sending both me and Proph? Do you feel that we are both likely to be scum together?
You are both pinging my radar in a few ways. You could both be scum together, or it could be on of you. I am not necessarily scum reading Seppel either, but I want to force him to contribute. Lash a whip across his back, and he will start eventually moving.
I saw a bunch of posts about lurking this game being more likely to be scum. I'm officially and intentionally lurking this game. This has been a public service announcement that I'm intentionally engaging in a scummy behavior and am calling attention to it.
This vaguely strikes me as one of those things that looks like it would be too ballsy to come from scum but actually has the opposite effect on people. And I suspect you know that.
Doubling down on wifom with your avatar doesn't do much for me.
Tell me, do you consider yourself a team player? Or would you be just as happy losing but being able to point to a post and say "well I was right about _____ so I did great."
I've expained under which conditions I share townreads, this is not dependant on the phase of the game. I have no such compulsions about red reads, I just don't have any.
So this is a mafia theory thing. I strongly disagree with your take here, but I am satisfied to Unvote.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Curiosity killed the cat. But for awhile, I was a suspect.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
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This post is a total joke. Your attack against me was completely unfounded and I knocked it off the table without much effort. Your misreps on the other hand are unfortunate. Which parts are OMGUS. I didn't even vote you. I said some of your actions aren't things I consider town reactions or come from bad town.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
And perhaps explain why no one would be interested in them?
As for bloscovi and the others, I'm not sure how thought processes are analogous to playstyle.
Its a bit easier to see with someone like bloscovi or matowar who just puts their thoughts out there, but even the endless yammering of ghosting or the entirely reactionary play of tappingstones can reveal how the donuts are made if you look hard enough. If coaching a buddy in-thread has ever been an actual scumtell, this is it.
I know how much you love finding unaligned pairs proph.
You are not scum with ghosting, hardwood, or brinatoo. See if you can tell why. You seem to be going hard on people you see as not helping the town, but also show awareness that town does dumb ***** all the time.
So how do you make the distinction and keep from constantly pushing mislynches?
FOS Kraj
Lean scum
Proph Didn't like his misrep of how I perceive Kraj seems like a very subtle and skillful way to ask suspicion against me without getting committed. Something I expect from an experienced player.
Kraj Got in over his head with a misread on me and his backpedal was awkward. Also it seems forced that he tried to promote some sort of award he got in a game that one asked about. Comes across as self conscious "I'm a good player damn it. Look at this game!"
lean town
Ghosting-Posting is consistent with the town games we've played together. Defending himself well and staying active, developing reads, etc.
Notagimmick-Coming across very natural and engaging in this game. Really like him telling people to get off theory. Scum can hide behind fluff like fighting about playstyle and he wanted to put that to rest.
How is voting for you and then explaining my vote "testing the waters"? How is my vote "completely unfounded" when I did, in fact, state a reason? How have you not OMGUS'd when you call me scum for voting you, and you vote Proph because he voted you? How am I backpedalling and "in over my head" when multiple people have agreed with my vote? How do you think a phony attack on you could have gone any better? You think you shut my attack down? Multiple people have expressed suspicion of you, but the only person who said they think you're town after this exchange is me. You want to convince me otherwise? By all means, keep attacking me and whoever else is suspicious of you while contributing nothing else.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Reading is tech! Proph has never voted for me in this game. But nice try with the misrep. I gave clear reasoning on why I'm voting proph.
You were trying to gauge a possible wagon, it wasn't working and you backpedaled hard. The strangest part was you trying to tell us how good you think you are. Like, what was that all about? If you are good and town(two unlikely propositions) you would be scum hunting right now and not trying to insult the people who have suspicion of you. The OMGUS is coming across phony.
That's false as well. Not a Gimmick also said I'm likely town. Care to actually pay attention in this game?
Threatening to come after me if I don't stop suspecting you? Like, have you played this game before? The point of the game is to hunt and kill the scum team. I'm not going to back down from my early reads just because you want to throw threats at me. Now if you actually start reading the game, scum hunting and not throwing around personal attacks perhaps you wont take so much flak. Right now you aren't doing anything I usually see from town players.
He is an intersting one. I don't know if I have seen a scum game from him, but the tell from town I have seen is that he is always trying to solve the game, but does it using techiques that tend to draw ire from the other players.
I am getting really nervous with all the town and scum reads so early. I never understood how people could clear people that quickly. Only strong town read I have is gimmick. Ghosting is a like a light scum read, and even then, I want to see more before I commit to it.
Two people also haven't posted as of yet.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
@Matowar-What did Proph do in Prisoner's to solidify himself as a town read?
Could you quote and react to the parts of Bloscovi's posts you don't like? I'm sure exactly which parts you see as being off.
@GJ-Which town and scum reads are making you nervous? Which do you think are people who have been "cleared" by others? Reading through I haven't had the impression that many people have cleared others.
Proph's response to Blos's "hit list" had the same kind of feel (three probably town reads and a scum). Aren't you a little nervous yourself with all these declared reads?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I hadn't considered it from that angle. I was really curious about people trying to jump on me from the word go just because I have questions about James Bond outing himself seemingly for no reason. Then Kraj started having a meltdown so there was that.
@Ghosting-What's your read on me?
@GJ-Oh, I almost forgot. If you had to send three people "to trial" right now who would they be?
I read Kraj's last post, I really am not getting a "meltdown" vibe from him. Why did you mention that, and what were you referring to?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
His backing off was done in a way that seemed like smoke-signals. Talking about how great he is and trying to wash his hands of the vote. Then him claiming proph voted me and that I OMGUS because of his "vote". Then he says he was the only one townreading me when at least not a gimmick had already had lean town.
Town do strange things but they usually don't try to directly lie to make themselves look better which is my observation at the moment.
Why Seppel?
and why Proph?
Proph has pinged me twice now, and I want to pursue him more. When I get home, I will likely have a few questions.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Rhand has been caught as scum in all three games I've played with him and he was VERY lurky in all of the games. As you say people don't chase the lurkers hard enough, I've lamented in several games that on Day one and Day two on MTGS the people that post the most always get called scum and pick up votes while scum can just hang out and make a post like "Been busy, will catch up soon".
Policy of lynching =/= always lynching lurkers. There are scum who can be active (read SC in the Invitational had the largest post count). My point in that policy is that lurkers are often ignored, and TS is right, the townies are the only ones talking and someone always thinks one of the talkers can be scum. And my earier point stands: we are still playing a deck short a couple of cards.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Right. But the important part is the feeling that this player is invoking.
Can you elaborate the desire for the bolded and also explain how it doesn't increase the chances of allowing you to lock him into a view?
Do you think it makes sense for Proph to so openly defend Kraj in this manner, though? It's so far from discreet that if Proph was town and Kraj flipped scum, it'd look incredibly suspicious, especially so early on.
Let's say that Bond is a town role. Do you think further discussion benefits town or scum more? Hypothetically, let's imagine James Bond is the doctor. If he tells us this, he's dead tonight. You can imagine similar scenarios.
Having played with TS more than once, I can verify that his play thus far and what you're perceiving as OMGUS votes is in fact within his town playstyle. I'm reading him very much as town, and think that when you consider the motivations behind his posting as well as the raw emotion, it's clear he is also town in this game.
Do you then also feel that Proph's pushing for me to vote, as well as to ask people questions, is inherently town or scum? Or a null read? Asking you this specifically because you said you're nervous about all the early town and scum reads.
I think you're obvtown and am fairly sure everyone else will come to that conclusion eventually.
Can you explain sending both me and Proph? Do you feel that we are both likely to be scum together?
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
First off, I don't even remember Mushroom Kingdom, but looking at my stats it looks like that game started me on a 3 year losing streak... Great.
Second, the first RVS-style vote after RVS has started to end makes me sad and doesn't give me warm fuzzies.
This seems oddly optimistic by you Seppel. You sure you didn't mean Day 4?
RE: Our two wagons to date:
Hardwood: Hardwood got railed for tonal reasons which seemed weak at best. The pace of the wagon is interesting, 3 votes in 7 posts to bring H_P to 5 votes.
Tapping: Tapping gonna Tapping. I've done little more than skimming (CTRL+F "vote"; CTRL+F "Jobie" ad nauseam) but it seems like this wagon arose due to weak pretenses for a read made by Tapping
BONUS Wagon: Ghosting has received attention for being overly wordy in an explanation *yawn*
Vote: Mindreaver
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
Since you seem to be focused on others cases and not mine, should I think that you at least acknowledged my content by not acknowledging it on post#96? "Kraj and Mindreaver both have failed to point out a reason that I am scum."
@Proph: What is your opinion on paranoia early in a game?
I don't think it hurts Proph to defend in that manner as scum, no. I also disagree that it looks incredibly suspicious if Kraj flips scum. My read on Proph isn't based in any part on his assurances about Kraj. They are based on his interactions with me.
Does "doctor" James Bond come out and say "Here I am"? Your questions are required to make sense and this one doesn't. The doctor doesn't want to do anything of this sort. I'm just at a loss to how this is useful to town in anyway. I'm going to file it away as town vanilla who hopes to eat a nightkill for now but I'm still troubled about revealing for no reason.
What? If you have a case against me go ahead and present it. I'm not likely to spend much more time defending myself today though unless something new happens. I have far too much work to do with all the juicy interactions we've gotten over the last 16+ hours. The only thing I can say is that I feel no pressure from your vote.
There is nothing meaningful in #87. You don't like the order in which I presented some thoughts/concerns I have about the early claim. You say it's from a "heavy scum mindset". Whatever that means. You haven't presented in any meaningful way why my words aren't town. This is a low level mistake that happens often in Mafia, namely "Player x does things I wouldn't do, therefore I think he's scum". You are free to pursue this line of attack against me but it's too weak. It's not indicative of anything.
Is there anything else you want to discuss while I'm here?
In fact, what you have called misreps in this game are mild towntells. They are cases in which proph and kraj are reading the driving force behind posts rather than the actual votes, which scum is less likely to do. I'm actually going to have to insist. Its not about them, its about you.
Please commit to an opinion.
Also, you can turn the censor off. And you probably ******* should. I think you may have forgotten to explain this. I see you don't like the wagons, but is there reasoning for this particular vote to follow that?
I don't know what ELI5 means.
Regarding 127: my initial read on TS is town based on his reactions to my vote and reason. I don't see a scum trying to turn a good wagon around on his attacker, I see a townie who is convinced his attacker must be scum. When I read his subsequent attacks on me, though, I don't see any actual logic. He's accusing me of tells that don't fit his explanations, and presenting facts that - as far as I'm concerned - don't fit reality. Such as accusing me of testing the waters and then backpedaling when I failed to start a wagon. Except I did start a wagon, and other people did agree that TS is suspicious. He's acting as if I made a grande case on him, declared him scum, and then backed off for no reason, when all I did was poke at him for one suspicious thing on page 2 and then got a town read based on his reaction.
So my situation is im being attacked by someone who I think is town, but whose reasoning looks completly unhinged to me. If most people agree with me then id rather resume scumhunting elsewhere, because there's no point in engaging someone who finds fault in literaly everything I say.
If people agree with him, however, then that's an indicator that I'm the one not seeing things properly, and I need to address that. Hence, my question to the players.
Regarding 121, I'm not 100% sure what you're asking but I think you want me to explain my town read on TS further. This early in the game, before some players have even posted, there is very little information to work with. Scum tend to lurk and barn while the townies attack each other. Time and time again I've seen town players react to being attacked by concluding their attacker is scum. Its OMGUS behavior, but the reason is because all they know at this point in the game is they are town and scum want them to get lynched. Percieving your attacker to be scum is a common reaction from a town mindset.
The alternative explanation is TS is scum and panicked at being pressured over something he probably thought looked like legitimate scumhunting. But that assumes a big overreaction on his part when he had plenty of less extreme options. It's plausible, but a lot less common than the Townie explanation.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Why did you say that I OMGUS at Proph for voting for me, when he didn't vote for me at all? And you have been called into question by three other players now, so there is something based in reality to what I'm getting at and many others take enough notice to engage on it and question some of the peculiarities of your posts. Why did you say you were the only person with a town read on me when others had already called me town?
You see old sport, you stepped into it a little bit here. What we are trying to determine now is if you were just being sloppy as scum or doing the typical "He plays different than me so I'm going to attack him" which is often town.
So to put it another way are you just playing sloppy or are you the type of person that attacks people who play differently than they do? Interested in you answering all of the questions asked to you with TRUE answers, and no more misreps, that would be awesome!
Did you grow up in China?
@Brinatoo-legitimately insane? If that wasn't a personal attack I would just ignore it as newb town ignorance. But the fact that you are going to follow up with a blatantly persona attack on someone you don't know is really low class on your part. Considering I'm being heavily town-read by the players who aren't making silly, illogical, rude attacks on others that would point to Kraj and your play being where the problem lies.
But I wont be engaging with you going forward if you are going to use rude personal attacks on day one of a forum game of mafia. I'm assuming Kraj must have a history of being rude because he actually references it in his signature, which is unfortunate.
This conversation is getting so annoying. Stop being so literal. Obviously, we're talking a role that wants attention. He didn't say "he's a doctor" he said "imagine he's a doctor" and "you can imagine similar scenarios".
The reason you're "not getting a good argument" for why people thought your actions were scummy (and I only mean that answering your question benefited scum more than town), is because laying out exactly what I'm thinking ALSO benefits scum more than town. So continue to strawman every argument against you into "well I still don't see a reason for it because your arguments are vague" if you want. But I think there are legitimate reasons to drop the whole thing for now. I'm not convinced that you didn't want more info about his role for nefarious purposes, but I'm also not saying you're definitely scum beyond redemption. I don't have a strong read on anything yet, you're just the best place to put that vote, because I think that was a bad line of questioning from a town PoV. The fact that you've been so belligerent about it, is actually making me rethink a bit. In short, I'm not ready to lynch you, but I like the pressure there for now, until somebody else is worthy of it.
Let me throw this out there, and I think we'll both agree:
I don't want a D1 full claim from NAG, and I don't see us resolving your concerns without it or a bunch of speculation that only benefits scum.
@Jobie: Kinda weird not to see reasoning behind the vote, care to elaborate?
I was also asking where you grew up so I'd know if English was your second language, I hadn't taken into account foreigners speaking out of order too. It's a common occurrence I've seen in my personal experience.
What you did WAS omgus. Proph was probing you, whether you claim to feel pressure or not, and you responded by scumreading him.
The problem is that omgus, like coaching, is not a real scumtell. It is just as likely to come from a villager, as explained quite adequately by kraj in #153
You have said more than once that I have called you town, which is not true. A misrep, by your seeming definition.
I am still rather neutral on you, but I did think the early scumreads were a bit silly.
I do think that in order to be a true asset your team, you have to work with us and perhaps try not to be so confrontational.
Now will you answer my question in #125 and either respond in some way or just think very hard about the part of #152 thats directed at you? Will you explain this before Day 3? Because I cannot hold my breath that long.
I have brinatoo (and kraj) as lightly town because they seem, at least to me, to be trying to understand why they cannot see eye to eye with tappingstones.
This is almost certainly a fakable interaction, but it is a good sign. Why yes, that does do it for me.
Thank you.
Why are explanations a no-go? I'm all for keeping some reasoning close to the vest, but this sounds like a hard and fast rule against sharing your thoughts.
Is that for Day 1 townreads only? All early reads? Or will you just be seppeling all game? Actually, for all that ghosting and tappingstones can be a bit of a chore to read through, I do enjoy the reactions they get.
This is not how scum backs off a townie. Mindreaver is unlikely to be mafia unless tappingstones is too.
Will catch up and post tomorrow probably.
I tried to read through, but I have a headache, and TappingStones' posts make me want to put a bullet into my temple.
Need to put in effort in another game before this one.
I have a strong townread on Jobie and Tapping.
VOTE:Bloscovi.
My vote is staying here all game for two reasons that I absolutely won't go into but I hope everyone would follow me here. Just have faith.
You have to be careful. Feel free to read through my previous games. My final vote of the day is almost never on a towny. I push back on behavior that I find strange and try to consider it from town and scum perspectives. From my short Mafia experience here's how it goes:Day one people attack those that are posting consistently. The lurkers are forgotten like they don't even exist. And a couple people will say that nearly anything someone does is scummy. I don't mind having people suspect or vote me early on, because as you said it provides good interaction. To start the game I also only know my own alignment so it's good to have players attack me because I don't have to worry if it's scum theater or whatnot. You the knowledge of your own alignment to your advantage when possible.
Next players on this site like to tell others they are scum or insane bad, etc if they do something they don't like or that they wouldn't do. Watch out for this. I think this is the time where you are most likely to find some useful information slip.
If you don't want to lead mislynches you have to be scum hunting and you have to be willing to put your ego aside and let some reads fall by the wayside.
I hope that answers your question.
IABM is pure gold! How goes it old sport?
Awww the guy whose wrong about his scum reads and refuses to answer questions has a headache.
@Seppel-What about Brinatoo's posts stood out to you?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I's interesting you say that, because in the Invitational, you, Wheat, and Chris manipulated the votes to make your buses look stronger. I think you should pay more attention to independent action and motive.
But you must have motive to say that. I don't think you were just trying to be cheeky.
I do not have an inherent problem with Proph pushing you to vote. I would say it's a null read, but honestly this early, I don't know why he would point you out. I would rather just let you hang yourself. For instance, if I were to say I catch scum by how often they vote or unvote a certain player, what do you think a scum is more likely to not do?
You are both pinging my radar in a few ways. You could both be scum together, or it could be on of you. I am not necessarily scum reading Seppel either, but I want to force him to contribute. Lash a whip across his back, and he will start eventually moving.
Is hunger even in this game?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
This type of ***** only makes it easier for scum. This vaguely strikes me as one of those things that looks like it would be too ballsy to come from scum but actually has the opposite effect on people. And I suspect you know that.
Doubling down on wifom with your avatar doesn't do much for me.
Tell me, do you consider yourself a team player? Or would you be just as happy losing but being able to point to a post and say "well I was right about _____ so I did great." So this is a mafia theory thing. I strongly disagree with your take here, but I am satisfied to Unvote.
The push on TappingStones looks stupid though. He's acting exactly like he always does. I will elaborate later...
Prophylaxis (2): Hardwood_Paneling, TappingStones
Hardwood_Paneling (2): Matowar77, not_a_gimmick
Ghosting (2): Prophylaxis, Bloscovi
TappingStones (3): Kraj, Mindreaver, Brinatoo
Mindreaver (1): Jobie
Bloscovi (1): imabusinessman
With 16 alive, it takes 9 to lynch.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player