Who knows I guess. I'm re-reading my own post there, and I guess it's not a given. I've never really been scum, so I don't know what goes into the NK decision. Personally, I think I'm gonna eat it, since my claim just confirmed me town, but that's okay at least they won't kill somebody who's going to contribute more to the game.
Who knows I guess. I'm re-reading my own post there, and I guess it's not a given. I've never really been scum, so I don't know what goes into the NK decision. Personally, I think I'm gonna eat it, since my claim just confirmed me town, but that's okay at least they won't kill somebody who's going to contribute more to the game.
Kraj is looking good as a vig target IMHO.
In regard to Ghosting, I like his early stuff best, which seems to be the stuff that got him under the most pressure with others. I have him as lean town but realistically close to null. I don't feel confident in my read on him. It's basically your choice on this. But please shoot whoever soon. So we have time to do rereads on interactions before the lynch.
Matowar-Sets off all the alarm bells similar to Tomsloger in most of his games but I think they both have an illogical/scummy style?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
If you have an item, you can pass it to another player instead of taking a Night action.
Wait, can you clarify this. So anyone can pass any non-ammo clip item if they want? I had thought the way to OP had it, you might have an ability that would move an item, but you couldn't just hand your item just cause you wanted to.
What Iso just said was the impression I got from reading the OP.
Meaning if your vig shot is an item, you can pass it to someone else after you use it so if scum night kill you we don't have to use Ghosting to recover it and scum won't know who has it again.
Or Seppel can pass the laptop to Ghosting so he can quit being paranoid.
Unfortunately for Ghosting, this means his role is no longer confirmable because he could just pass it as a night action, not by using his ability.
And taking dead people's gear isn't strictly townie or scummy.
and upon re-read, I'm just dumb. Thanks for the comment iso.
So who wants this briefcase tonight? lol
I think optimal play for your vig shot would be to spend it today, then pass it to someone without claiming who. That person recharges it with their ammo clip and shoots on day 3.
Because if scum know who you gave it to, they'll shoot them tonight or tomorrow.
The trick then, of course, is to pass it to someone who is both town and not a scum target.
@mod/Iso: can we use an ammo clip on an item that was passed to us the same night, or do we not get the item until the following day?
I'm assuming the latter, but it doesn't hurt to ask.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@everyone-I'd prefer you don't pass me anything. I'm paranoid of getting killed in the first few days and i'd rather the scum don't reap any extra benefits.
You realize shooting me is the same thing as shooting NAG, and vice versa....
In addition, bread crumbing "town". What does that even mean? Everyone in the game wants to breadcrumb town, myself included.
Quote from IMAB »
There's a disconnect here GJ. You read me as town. I breadcrumbed town via the role pm way before anyone else did. You're cclaiming to want to work with town. I'm as close to town confirmed as can be without being an innocent child or a mason and you're advocating that I get shot. You're scum.
My read for you as town was for basically not having the balls to do that as scum. I am guessing as you were looking for proof, you missed Proph and mine's little back and forth? If you were town, I would imagine you would have read that and realized it might have made sense why I might be ok lynching you.
1. As in breadcrumbing a portion of the role PM that only townies would be aware of.
2. But you're not advocating for my lynch bruh. Then you'd have to be responsible for your vote. You're advocating for someone else to take responsibility for killing a townread while keeping your own hands clean. Don't try to engage in fancypants wordplay with me. I mean, just because I'd rather be lolcatting doesn't mean I can't gamesolve. I'm just telling people I don't feel like putting in the effort. You're such scum. It's fortunate that it's the summer and I'm such a sloth. The most I can do is hope people read this post and lynch you.
BTW, You could simply be lovers with scum which means that they have no incentive to NK you because then they'll lose a teammate. Of Course youre gonna claim and tell people whom you're partnered with if it's with scum. If it were with another neutral or townie you'd dare not claim because it would result in both of you losing.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@everyone-I'd prefer you don't pass me anything. I'm paranoid of getting killed in the first few days and i'd rather the scum don't reap any extra benefits.
Feel free to pass me stuff, though. Until my laptop is stolen, I'm pretty much an item storage box.
Eh I'm skimming, but this setup is nothing like the 2 games I've played so far. I'm not allowed to lurk anymore anyway Iso and Mindreaver have said they'll vig me if I do it again What's does your PM say your win condition is by the way NAG? I guess you have a point Ghosting, you can just play town and hope not to get NK'd. It seems like such a convenient way of hiding as scum but your participation seems way too high for someone trying not to get killed by either side and it worries me. You can already work out who I am anyway I think the roleplaying thing was enough breadcrumbing and I can't be bothered roleplaying anymore While I was townread it was fun but now I feel like I either play serious or die so I guess I'd rather not die. I'll try and interact with y'all so you can have something before you elect to shoot me I got more involved in OTG beecause we just had a flip, right now we have a bunch of weird neutral claims I don't really get and nothing I can tie them to. If I treat the as town I might be able to get somewhere I guess.
I'm conflicted. Because I believe that our loving mod Iso would definitely put some wacky neutral roles here to screw with the town and then dismiss it as "well they're SUPPOSED to be townies!" when it turns out there are 4 mafia in the setup, and nearly half of the game is not aligned with the town.
However, if I dismiss Ghosting as a neutral, I'm left thinking, "Where are the scum?" Because that puts us in the True Null camp of Kraj/Jobie/Hunger that no one has a townread on, and they can't be the entire scum team. I'm probably getting a little more paranoid than I should be on Day 1, but the fact that I have no solid, smoking-gun scumreads, and all I'm left with is a pile of null is very concerning.
In that vein, I would support a daykill of Ghosting or Kraj. Ghosting because he could conceivably be scum with the way he interacted with GJ early game and god there needs to be scum somewhere, and Kraj because out of that trio of ultimate null I think he has a decent bet to be scum with how he made the attack on NAG and hopped on the Mindreaver wagon.
I would support a vig of imabuisnessman, but the way he waves around his flavor crumb thing which doesn't mean anything makes me vaguely think he is town. He's completely useless, though. Just a constant stream of OMGUS.
Quote from Silver »
To echo Kraj, "I thought this was a normal." Should've known GoldenEye wasn't a normal normal, I guess.
Iso, man. Why.
Quote from Mindreaver »
I was thinking the exact same thing about the lovers. GJ would be my pick for scum affiliation. Because JB is definitely sometimes "lovers" with the bad guys. Like in The World is Not Enough.
Don't rely on flavorgaming, and tell me why GJ would claim lovers like that and neutral when he had absolutely no reason not to. (Plus, he was a decent town read by many when he claimed)
Also I would like it to be put on record that I don't want Matowar vigged. He is not being helpful, yes, but if he is scum he will not win the game anyways (please don't be Rodemy 2.0). I think that he's just genuinely new to the game. If he doesn't keep up the level on contribution later on then yeah, we can lynch him, but I think there are better vig targets.
Like Ghosting.
Or Kraj.
I'm really struggling to reconcile the strong townread I got out of Brinatoo when I analyzed his posts, and the recent trend of going against him. But there has to be scum somewhere! If Ghosting does indeed flip neutral I'll take a look at Brinatoo again.
Siiigh the more I read Ghosting's posts the more I am convinced he is actually a Neutral and Iso really did screw us over.
Quote from NAG »
Yeah, I'll get to it. Probably this weekend.
I wish you'd let things be sometimes. I would much rather brinatoo just marinate in the anticipation.
Thanks.
Quote from Matowar »
Goddamn I'm confused, and apparently scummy to boot. Anyway should I claim to not get vigged? How many people are claiming neutral? There has to be some liars in the neutral group, I'm worried about Ghosting's claim more than his play this game :S He seems really town but he claimed neutral -.- It's offputting.
And suddenly this post appears and it's like, half ultrascum and half pretty townie, heh.
<---- me on Matowar
Quote from Ghosting »
I don't know if this is in bad taste or not, but Mato has posted and is posting much more actively in Off the Grid. Note: I am not reading that game, or pushing any views relevant to that game; I have no idea what's going on it. But, he posted June 2nd a few times, June 4th also a few times, June 6th many times, and already twice today. We have seen next to nothing here. What does that tell us? Mato has been able to be active here, and has shown that, but is not willing to be. He isn't contributing, is purposefully not posting.
Please do not refer to ongoing games in a manner like this. Thank you.
Quote from Mindreaver »
While I don't want to reference other games, I can see from your profile "last online" time (17 minutes ago as of this post), that you ARE on the site.
Activity stalking is kind of angleshooty as well even though it's not an official rule. Once again, please don't do this
Plus imab feels a bit more town after the mod questions even though I dislike clearing people for this.
So yeah. tldr: I think Kraj, possibly Ghosting should be vigged. Matowar, I wouldn't shed a tear if he was, but if he does flip town like I think he will then we're basically at square one again.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm having a difficult time cracking open this game without a flip.
I need one in order to re-evaluate the gamestate and determine if I'm right or wrong. This Day has dragged its heels, and a flip would bring much more life to the game.
Mindreaver: I'll trust your judgement on who to shoot, but can you make it a bit sooner rather than later? Deadline is in a week or so, I think, and I'd like time to analyze any new confirmed information that we receive, whether it be a town or scum flip.
I kind of still think Ghosting is just mafia, though.
If he claimed town, he was dead. His only hope at survival was to claim neutral that we'd want to keep alive, and conveniently, he did that.
I kind of want to give Matowar a chance. This is almost completely OOG, but he's new, he's obviously frustrated and isn't entirely sure what to do, regardless of his alignment. Our community is not going to flourish and grow if we just keep killing new players on D1. Like. I don't think we learn anything from his flip, town or scum. I think that if he starts actually posting thoughts and content in a readable manner, he'll be pretty easy to get a read on either way.
Pressure him on D2. Make him to commit to almost everything, or die. (And maybe still die, depending on flips/new information). But I don't really think I have the heart to kill him on D1, when if he's scum he's not...going to win as the last remaining scum. He's just not.
Ghosting is my preference. Kraj would be acceptable I guess, though I'm a little bit wary of how...universal? That scum read seems to be, when he hasn't posted anything that's truly awful.
I'm having a difficult time cracking open this game without a flip.
I need one in order to re-evaluate the gamestate and determine if I'm right or wrong. This Day has dragged its heels, and a flip would bring much more life to the game.
Mindreaver: I'll trust your judgement on who to shoot, but can you make it a bit sooner rather than later? Deadline is in a week or so, I think, and I'd like time to analyze any new confirmed information that we receive, whether it be a town or scum flip.
/barn this and I agree choose who you want but do it quickly.
I'd be very surprised if the universally-considered scum pile of Jobie/Hunger/Ghosting/Kraj etc were all scum. Because that never happens in a mafia game.
If Ghosting flips scum I'd be very very impressed with his scum game, and going to be wary of him forever.
I'm just thinking to myself, "Who is the Deep Scum?" and then going "No, Proph, we don't hunt for those people on Day 1 with zero flips yet" and etc.
Out of curiosity, on a scale of 1 to 'Oh god help', how paranoid of me are you right now?
I'm kind of just rolling over and accepting that you're town like the recent WitchHunt game we played together. A lot of posts I really, really struggle to see you make if you are actually scum.
I have a hard time seeing you this invested and sticking it out this game if you are actually scum, with the amount of.. (expletive) you have to deal with. Gut tells me you would just not deal with it and reduce your posting, or maybe replace out entirely.
I was hoping to let them skate, I guess, but since my entire townblock except Seppel is talking about it now...
@Gentlemen_Johnny:
You've basically full claimed already (neutral, lover, name is Natalya). Could you please confirm or deny that your role pm itself has a win condition printed in it? According to wiki, lovers just die together, they don't always have an alternate wincon, so I think you and NaG might just be town. Especially considering NaG's #423 and the posts surrounding it.
Of course that doesn't actually help us catch scum, either, but if I'm right it clears up the modgaming some at least.
Which brings me to this:
Town Reads
TappingStones
not_a_gimmick
Bloscovi
Prophylaxis
Mindreaver
Seppel
Gentleman Johnny
Huntzilla
Null
Matowar77
Brinatoo
imabusinessman
Ghosting
Hunger
Jobie
Kraj
Current thoughts
1) Nag and GJ are possibly town.
2) Ghosting claimed neutral. His claim is unproveable unless he suddenly wins out of nowhere, leaving the rest of us holding the bag. Unless we have a tracker who wants to watch him target Mind's vig target to get their item tonight, I guess? but taking items from dead people is good for both alignments... He says he wants to actively cooperate with town, so he should be self resolving. Either he starts passing us items or we'll lynch him.
2.1) On another note about Ghosting, his claimed wincon actually clashes with town. Because he wants us to give him items so he can use them and win. We'll need someone with a non-lethal item to give him something he can use in return for his services, I guess. Obviously Seppel's laptop would be his number one choice, but that can't be actively expended so it doesn't actually help him except that he's paranoid of getting night killed.
2.2) I am now slowly convincing myself that his alternate wincon is bull***** and he just steals from dead people and is also scum. Anyone else thinking along these lines or am I being paranoid?
3) Mindreaver claimed dayvig.
4) Matowar is actually sort of posting now? I guess?
5) Kraj and Jobie seem to be actively lurking and don't show many signs of participating. Problem is, according to Jobie he's pretty worthless day 1 and reading Kraj's linked games gives me the impression that he's sort of lurky as both alignments.
6) I have zero, no, null, {} strong scum reads. Sorry. I did finish my reread and I did not turn up anything interesting. I'm going to start iso'ing my nulls tomorrow.
7) I iso'd Kraj and Jobie again, and find the way Kraj refers to town in his #71 very, very odd. Almost like he's somebody outside of town commenting on the behavior of town members. I want to chalk it up to theory-speak but my gut won't let me. What does everyone else think?
Ask me about 1029 post game. It's not relevant to this game at all, since the reply you gave wasn't what I was looking for in a niche situation.
Or I guess I could talk about it now.
If you were scum in this game, you set out with a set agenda in mind to deal with me. You were going to try and get town read with early energy and engagement, and maintain the town read for day one, before shooting me as fast as humanly possible on night one, before I could re-evaluate based on new information.
Fitting with that mindset would be kind of...appeasing my ego by admitting that you're paranoid but going to simply hope that I self-resolve.
I don't think you take this line of response as scum, so.
6) I have zero, no, null, {} strong scum reads. Sorry. I did finish my reread and I did not turn up anything interesting. I'm going to start iso'ing my nulls tomorrow.
Welcome to the club.
Either the scum are playing really well and have hidden themselves in the grand pile of consensus townreads or are just in the null pile ready to get vigged.
And I have no idea until we get some flips.
Seriously, this disparity is insane.
Quote from Silver »
2.2) I am now slowly convincing myself that his alternate wincon is bull***** and he just steals from dead people and is also scum. Anyone else thinking along these lines or am I being paranoid?
This actually makes me a lot more comfortable with the idea of vigging Ghosting. If you try and view the claim from an objective manner, when we already have two neutrals in the game, it makes very little sense.
Quote from Silver »
7) I iso'd Kraj and Jobie again, and find the way Kraj refers to town in his #71 very, very odd. Almost like he's somebody outside of town commenting on the behavior of town members. I want to chalk it up to theory-speak but my gut won't let me. What does everyone else think?
I'd be very surprised if the universally-considered scum pile of Jobie/Hunger/Ghosting/Kraj etc
Is Jobie really being universally scum read?
I'm certainly not scum-reading him (null based on low activity).
@Proph-Thought experiment. From this point forward how would we catch a scum Bloscovi? You mentioned you have lots of experience with him and know his tricks. Take us through how Scum!Bloscovi plays this game going forward and why.
If you were scum in this game, you set out with a set agenda in mind to deal with me. You were going to try and get town read with early energy and engagement, and maintain the town read for day one, before shooting me as fast as humanly possible on night one, before I could re-evaluate based on new information.
You know my scum game isn't good enough to fool you and the, I don't know. 10 other townies analyzing the game as best as they can.
Out of curiosity, on a scale of 1 to 'Oh god help', how paranoid of me are you right now?
I'm kind of just rolling over and accepting that you're town like the recent WitchHunt game we played together. A lot of posts I really, really struggle to see you make if you are actually scum.
I have a hard time seeing you this invested and sticking it out this game if you are actually scum, with the amount of.. (expletive) you have to deal with. Gut tells me you would just not deal with it and reduce your posting, or maybe replace out entirely.
To tell the truth I am very close to replacing out based on the amount of flaming and abuse I have had to deal with from you too. It's really immature.
@Mod How are we on existing replacements? There are a couple people who are actively trying to make the game uncomfortable for me personally and it doesn't seem like they are going to let up anytime soon.
@Proph-Thought experiment. From this point forward how would we catch a scum Bloscovi? You mentioned you have lots of experience with him and know his tricks. Take us through how Scum!Bloscovi plays this game going forward and why.
I have a hard time telling you this because my experience with Bloscovi as scum is very limited. One could argue that I've never "seen" his scum game, and that's why I live in perpetual fear of getting pocketed by him and losing a game again to him as scum.
Key points I guess:
- Engage with Bloscovi, get him to explain his mindset and thought processes, and what he hopes to accomplish by doing X. He's bound to be wrong sometimes if he's town, and he's going to bus at some point if he's mafia - since he has zero conviction attacking people he /knows/ that he is town. I mean, it can happen, especially after he sees this, but it's extraordinarily difficult to attack someone who you know is town and make it sound like you're convinced.
- Later in the game, reread him, evaluate how genuine his mindset/thought processes is. Vote count analysis helps a lot in that regard.
- Scum!Bloscovi preys on inactive, complacent town. Put in the work later in the game, do some analysis, and always stay vigilant, if he is actually scum.
I was hoping to let them skate, I guess, but since my entire townblock except Seppel is talking about it now...
@Gentlemen_Johnny:
You've basically full claimed already (neutral, lover, name is Natalya). Could you please confirm or deny that your role pm itself has a win condition printed in it? According to wiki, lovers just die together, they don't always have an alternate wincon, so I think you and NaG might just be town. Especially considering NaG's #423 and the posts surrounding it.
Of course that doesn't actually help us catch scum, either, but if I'm right it clears up the modgaming some at least.
Which brings me to this:
Town Reads
TappingStones
not_a_gimmick
Bloscovi
Prophylaxis
Mindreaver
Seppel
Gentleman Johnny
Huntzilla
Null
Matowar77
Brinatoo
imabusinessman
Ghosting
Hunger
Jobie
Kraj
Current thoughts
1) Nag and GJ are possibly town.
2) Ghosting claimed neutral. His claim is unproveable unless he suddenly wins out of nowhere, leaving the rest of us holding the bag. Unless we have a tracker who wants to watch him target Mind's vig target to get their item tonight, I guess? but taking items from dead people is good for both alignments... He says he wants to actively cooperate with town, so he should be self resolving. Either he starts passing us items or we'll lynch him.
2.1) On another note about Ghosting, his claimed wincon actually clashes with town. Because he wants us to give him items so he can use them and win. We'll need someone with a non-lethal item to give him something he can use in return for his services, I guess. Obviously Seppel's laptop would be his number one choice, but that can't be actively expended so it doesn't actually help him except that he's paranoid of getting night killed.
2.2) I am now slowly convincing myself that his alternate wincon is bull***** and he just steals from dead people and is also scum. Anyone else thinking along these lines or am I being paranoid?
3) Mindreaver claimed dayvig.
4) Matowar is actually sort of posting now? I guess?
5) Kraj and Jobie seem to be actively lurking and don't show many signs of participating. Problem is, according to Jobie he's pretty worthless day 1 and reading Kraj's linked games gives me the impression that he's sort of lurky as both alignments.
6) I have zero, no, null, {} strong scum reads. Sorry. I did finish my reread and I did not turn up anything interesting. I'm going to start iso'ing my nulls tomorrow.
7) I iso'd Kraj and Jobie again, and find the way Kraj refers to town in his #71 very, very odd. Almost like he's somebody outside of town commenting on the behavior of town members. I want to chalk it up to theory-speak but my gut won't let me. What does everyone else think?
@CrystalS-Part of the game involves going out on a limb to some degree in order to catch scum. Always remember that we are on a clock. We lose if we don't catch them. In that mindset it would behoove you to figure out which of your null reads is most likely to be scum and then go from there.
That is really the only thing missing from your game right now. You have posted well since your replace in which is admirable considering HWP's slot was looking tainted at that point. Now I need you to help us catch scum.
@Mod How are we on existing replacements? There are a couple people who are actively trying to make the game uncomfortable for me personally and it doesn't seem like they are going to let up anytime soon.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Mod How are we on existing replacements? There are a couple people who are actively trying to make the game uncomfortable for me personally and it doesn't seem like they are going to let up anytime soon.
I have exactly one more replacement.
I see. I'd definitely like to continue and am enjoying this set-up.
I just want the flaming and passive aggressive OOG stuff to stop.
Hopefully people can take a deep breath and play the game like adults and not like a hydra account.
@TS:
Yeah, I'm going to start sifting through my null reads again tomorrow. I did Kraj and Jobie before I wrote that one since they're both super short. What do you think about Ghosting? Does neutral false claim seem plausible?
On a flavor related note. The Pakistani Weapons Dealer is from a deleted scene in the GoldenEye movie. I doubt Ghosting would false claim that since it's so obscure, but on the other hand it could be a fake role in his PM or his actual role name, just with Mafia changed to Neutral since flavor is already out he window.
@TS:
Yeah, I'm going to start sifting through my null reads again tomorrow. I did Kraj and Jobie before I wrote that one since they're both super short. What do you think about Ghosting? Does neutral false claim seem plausible?
On a flavor related note. The Pakistani Weapons Dealer is from a deleted scene in the GoldenEye movie. I doubt Ghosting would false claim that since it's so obscure, but on the other hand it could be a fake role in his PM or his actual role name, just with Mafia changed to Neutral since flavor is already out he window.
Thanks for putting in the time. Fleshing out the null reads (even if you or I are wrong) is still a worthwhile endeavor.
I don't like to flavor game much. I'll comment from time to time but I really try to stay away from letting it be a factor in my voting. If you've been keeping up with me you can see how conflicted I have become over Ghosting. My gut says he's town despite so many players salivating for him to be killed. But it's not one of those reads where I can really fault them (at least the latter voters). I think Blos doesn't have an honest scum read on him. It seems like pin-point bussing. Go back and check it out. Proph barning him gave him early cred (for some reason) and then a strange wagon built up and then halted FOR A LOT OF POSTS. The pressure was on him but no one else felt convinced. Where I started to have the problem started right before the claim.
I would much rather see the others I've listed get vigged. But I think Ghosting might have hung his own noose if he is being truthful about being a neutral. Like I don't care if a neutral dies...at all. I'd prefer the death be scum but I'm one players in this game and don't expect everyone to blindly follow my read.
Yep! Makes perfect sense. I'd definitely prefer to see him lynched, not vigged. The vig should go on someone we're never going to get a read on (like IMAB) or a lurker like Hunger/Kraj/Jobie, at least in my opinion. If Ghosting dies, I want a nine player wagon on it to analyze because I'm not totally convinced one way or the other and there's a ton of interaction with him to look at after the flip.
Maybe I'll start with a re-reread of Ghosting tomorrow. I was going to put him off because I did that PBPA but he has the most new stuff to look at. Kraj, Jobie, Matowar, Hunger, and IMAB have like twelve new posts combined or something. Huntzilla's not posting much either. Bleh.
-After reading back through IAMB, I think he's probably town. Exasperating, because he has outright claimed to be playing anti-town, but probably town.
-Gun to my head, Matowar is town. Scum doesn't face down the barrel of a vig, get asked by town to please try to provide content, and make it more readable so that it can be more easily parsed, and effectively go 'but...how about I don't do that?' It lacks self-preservation.
-Maybe Huntzilla needs to be re-examined, because I can't think of anything he's done recently. Entirely possible it happened while I was V/LA and I missed it though, but this is mostly just a mental note for me to check him out at some point to confirm the light town read I have, because my instinctual reaction is that he's coasting.
-Jobie is effectively true null. Everyone else is more likely to be town than him, from Hunger on up.
-Hunger is largely just in the 'Not strong town' cluster. I want to re-examine the whole Role PM fiasco earlier today, because he played a part in that, but he's been gone for the vast majority of the day, and left minimal impact on me when he's been around.
-shrug-?
I want to strengthen these reads, but it's near impossible to strengthen the reads without them posting more.
I want Ghosting dead. I think he's mafia, I think he took the only claim he could come up with that would give him a chance at survival, because claiming town wouldn't do it.
If he's mafia, we've had a wagon, and lots of interactions around him to look at. Who avoided the wagon? Who pushed elsewhere? Who handwaved it away as Ghosting being Ghosting?
If he's a neutral, then we look at it as if he were town, from a lynch perspective pre-claim, and see who was genuine, who wasn't. Who knew he was town, so avoided committing. (Spoiler: I probably want Brinatoo super dead in worlds where he actually is a neutral)
Since I've noticed that this game has some borderline passive-aggressive flaming/trolling stuff, I'm just gonna ask that you guys knock it off immediately and forever. If you don't like someone as a person, ignore what they say that bothers you. If you don't like someone as a player, take it to the Theory thread. If you don't like someone as an alignment-related thing, play Mafia.
The rest of that ***** doesn't belong in here. Leave it at home.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't have any major objections, though I'd kind of like him to post more before he dies, for the off chance he's town.
The early game back and forth with you felt like a genuine attempt at understanding which would be weird coming from scum, but if I tilt my head I can see it as being a playstyle clash, which is where the genuineness could come in.
Only other thing that gives me some pause is in his most recent post (or second most recent?) where he responded to my massive wall with 'Yeah, that's fair'. Makes me slightly paranoid that we're looking at town who is having trouble getting invested.
Would you mind looking back at that response to me and giving thoughts?
I believe there is something about passing items in the OP, as well.
Kraj is looking good as a vig target IMHO.
In regard to Ghosting, I like his early stuff best, which seems to be the stuff that got him under the most pressure with others. I have him as lean town but realistically close to null. I don't feel confident in my read on him. It's basically your choice on this. But please shoot whoever soon. So we have time to do rereads on interactions before the lynch.
Matowar-Sets off all the alarm bells similar to Tomsloger in most of his games but I think they both have an illogical/scummy style?
IABM is likely town.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Wait, can you clarify this. So anyone can pass any non-ammo clip item if they want? I had thought the way to OP had it, you might have an ability that would move an item, but you couldn't just hand your item just cause you wanted to.
So who wants this briefcase tonight? lol
Meaning if your vig shot is an item, you can pass it to someone else after you use it so if scum night kill you we don't have to use Ghosting to recover it and scum won't know who has it again.
Or Seppel can pass the laptop to Ghosting so he can quit being paranoid.
Unfortunately for Ghosting, this means his role is no longer confirmable because he could just pass it as a night action, not by using his ability.
And taking dead people's gear isn't strictly townie or scummy.
I think optimal play for your vig shot would be to spend it today, then pass it to someone without claiming who. That person recharges it with their ammo clip and shoots on day 3.
Because if scum know who you gave it to, they'll shoot them tonight or tomorrow.
The trick then, of course, is to pass it to someone who is both town and not a scum target.
@mod/Iso: can we use an ammo clip on an item that was passed to us the same night, or do we not get the item until the following day?
I'm assuming the latter, but it doesn't hurt to ask.
That's correct.
If a player receives an item, they may not interact with or use it until the following Day/Night cycle.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
1. As in breadcrumbing a portion of the role PM that only townies would be aware of.
2. But you're not advocating for my lynch bruh. Then you'd have to be responsible for your vote. You're advocating for someone else to take responsibility for killing a townread while keeping your own hands clean. Don't try to engage in fancypants wordplay with me. I mean, just because I'd rather be lolcatting doesn't mean I can't gamesolve. I'm just telling people I don't feel like putting in the effort. You're such scum. It's fortunate that it's the summer and I'm such a sloth. The most I can do is hope people read this post and lynch you.
BTW, You could simply be lovers with scum which means that they have no incentive to NK you because then they'll lose a teammate. Of Course youre gonna claim and tell people whom you're partnered with if it's with scum. If it were with another neutral or townie you'd dare not claim because it would result in both of you losing.
This is a normal game. Was the scumteam given fake claims?
This is a Normal game. Was the scumteam given a sample vanilla townie role pm?
That's a question that no mod worth their salt should ever answer if it's not explicitly stated in the OP, for some reason.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Really? I never give fake-claims. Could you anser the one about sample vanilla townie's at least?
Matowar got ahold of Juliet it seems.
Neutral claim.
I'm conflicted. Because I believe that our loving mod Iso would definitely put some wacky neutral roles here to screw with the town and then dismiss it as "well they're SUPPOSED to be townies!" when it turns out there are 4 mafia in the setup, and nearly half of the game is not aligned with the town.
However, if I dismiss Ghosting as a neutral, I'm left thinking, "Where are the scum?" Because that puts us in the True Null camp of Kraj/Jobie/Hunger that no one has a townread on, and they can't be the entire scum team. I'm probably getting a little more paranoid than I should be on Day 1, but the fact that I have no solid, smoking-gun scumreads, and all I'm left with is a pile of null is very concerning.
In that vein, I would support a daykill of Ghosting or Kraj. Ghosting because he could conceivably be scum with the way he interacted with GJ early game and god there needs to be scum somewhere, and Kraj because out of that trio of ultimate null I think he has a decent bet to be scum with how he made the attack on NAG and hopped on the Mindreaver wagon.
I would support a vig of imabuisnessman, but the way he waves around his flavor crumb thing which doesn't mean anything makes me vaguely think he is town. He's completely useless, though. Just a constant stream of OMGUS.
Iso, man. Why.
Don't rely on flavorgaming, and tell me why GJ would claim lovers like that and neutral when he had absolutely no reason not to. (Plus, he was a decent town read by many when he claimed)
Also I would like it to be put on record that I don't want Matowar vigged. He is not being helpful, yes, but if he is scum he will not win the game anyways (please don't be Rodemy 2.0). I think that he's just genuinely new to the game. If he doesn't keep up the level on contribution later on then yeah, we can lynch him, but I think there are better vig targets.
Like Ghosting.
Or Kraj.
I'm really struggling to reconcile the strong townread I got out of Brinatoo when I analyzed his posts, and the recent trend of going against him. But there has to be scum somewhere! If Ghosting does indeed flip neutral I'll take a look at Brinatoo again.
Siiigh the more I read Ghosting's posts the more I am convinced he is actually a Neutral and Iso really did screw us over.
Thanks.
And suddenly this post appears and it's like, half ultrascum and half pretty townie, heh.
<---- me on Matowar
Please do not refer to ongoing games in a manner like this. Thank you.
Activity stalking is kind of angleshooty as well even though it's not an official rule. Once again, please don't do this
Plus imab feels a bit more town after the mod questions even though I dislike clearing people for this.
So yeah. tldr: I think Kraj, possibly Ghosting should be vigged. Matowar, I wouldn't shed a tear if he was, but if he does flip town like I think he will then we're basically at square one again.
No sample role PMs will be going in the OP.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I need one in order to re-evaluate the gamestate and determine if I'm right or wrong. This Day has dragged its heels, and a flip would bring much more life to the game.
Mindreaver: I'll trust your judgement on who to shoot, but can you make it a bit sooner rather than later? Deadline is in a week or so, I think, and I'd like time to analyze any new confirmed information that we receive, whether it be a town or scum flip.
I kind of still think Ghosting is just mafia, though.
If he claimed town, he was dead. His only hope at survival was to claim neutral that we'd want to keep alive, and conveniently, he did that.
I kind of want to give Matowar a chance. This is almost completely OOG, but he's new, he's obviously frustrated and isn't entirely sure what to do, regardless of his alignment. Our community is not going to flourish and grow if we just keep killing new players on D1. Like. I don't think we learn anything from his flip, town or scum. I think that if he starts actually posting thoughts and content in a readable manner, he'll be pretty easy to get a read on either way.
Pressure him on D2. Make him to commit to almost everything, or die. (And maybe still die, depending on flips/new information). But I don't really think I have the heart to kill him on D1, when if he's scum he's not...going to win as the last remaining scum. He's just not.
Ghosting is my preference. Kraj would be acceptable I guess, though I'm a little bit wary of how...universal? That scum read seems to be, when he hasn't posted anything that's truly awful.
Maybe the game is just that easy, though.
/barn this and I agree choose who you want but do it quickly.
I'm pretty sure that kind of casualness and transparency of thought is outside his scum range.
If Ghosting flips scum I'd be very very impressed with his scum game, and going to be wary of him forever.
I'm just thinking to myself, "Who is the Deep Scum?" and then going "No, Proph, we don't hunt for those people on Day 1 with zero flips yet" and etc.
And most likely being the Day 1 vig or lynch.
I have a hard time seeing you this invested and sticking it out this game if you are actually scum, with the amount of.. (expletive) you have to deal with. Gut tells me you would just not deal with it and reduce your posting, or maybe replace out entirely.
@Gentlemen_Johnny:
You've basically full claimed already (neutral, lover, name is Natalya). Could you please confirm or deny that your role pm itself has a win condition printed in it? According to wiki, lovers just die together, they don't always have an alternate wincon, so I think you and NaG might just be town. Especially considering NaG's #423 and the posts surrounding it.
Of course that doesn't actually help us catch scum, either, but if I'm right it clears up the modgaming some at least.
Which brings me to this:
Town Reads
TappingStones
not_a_gimmick
Bloscovi
Prophylaxis
Mindreaver
Seppel
Gentleman Johnny
Huntzilla
Null
Matowar77
Brinatoo
imabusinessman
Ghosting
Hunger
Jobie
Kraj
Current thoughts
1) Nag and GJ are possibly town.
2) Ghosting claimed neutral. His claim is unproveable unless he suddenly wins out of nowhere, leaving the rest of us holding the bag. Unless we have a tracker who wants to watch him target Mind's vig target to get their item tonight, I guess? but taking items from dead people is good for both alignments... He says he wants to actively cooperate with town, so he should be self resolving. Either he starts passing us items or we'll lynch him.
2.1) On another note about Ghosting, his claimed wincon actually clashes with town. Because he wants us to give him items so he can use them and win. We'll need someone with a non-lethal item to give him something he can use in return for his services, I guess. Obviously Seppel's laptop would be his number one choice, but that can't be actively expended so it doesn't actually help him except that he's paranoid of getting night killed.
2.2) I am now slowly convincing myself that his alternate wincon is bull***** and he just steals from dead people and is also scum. Anyone else thinking along these lines or am I being paranoid?
3) Mindreaver claimed dayvig.
4) Matowar is actually sort of posting now? I guess?
5) Kraj and Jobie seem to be actively lurking and don't show many signs of participating. Problem is, according to Jobie he's pretty worthless day 1 and reading Kraj's linked games gives me the impression that he's sort of lurky as both alignments.
6) I have zero, no, null, {} strong scum reads. Sorry. I did finish my reread and I did not turn up anything interesting. I'm going to start iso'ing my nulls tomorrow.
7) I iso'd Kraj and Jobie again, and find the way Kraj refers to town in his #71 very, very odd. Almost like he's somebody outside of town commenting on the behavior of town members. I want to chalk it up to theory-speak but my gut won't let me. What does everyone else think?
Okay.
Ask me about 1029 post game. It's not relevant to this game at all, since the reply you gave wasn't what I was looking for in a niche situation.
Or I guess I could talk about it now.
If you were scum in this game, you set out with a set agenda in mind to deal with me. You were going to try and get town read with early energy and engagement, and maintain the town read for day one, before shooting me as fast as humanly possible on night one, before I could re-evaluate based on new information.
Fitting with that mindset would be kind of...appeasing my ego by admitting that you're paranoid but going to simply hope that I self-resolve.
I don't think you take this line of response as scum, so.
There's that.
Either the scum are playing really well and have hidden themselves in the grand pile of consensus townreads or are just in the null pile ready to get vigged.
And I have no idea until we get some flips.
Seriously, this disparity is insane.
This actually makes me a lot more comfortable with the idea of vigging Ghosting. If you try and view the claim from an objective manner, when we already have two neutrals in the game, it makes very little sense.
MTGS needs to up their gif game, you say?
Is Jobie really being universally scum read?
I'm certainly not scum-reading him (null based on low activity).
@Proph-Thought experiment. From this point forward how would we catch a scum Bloscovi? You mentioned you have lots of experience with him and know his tricks. Take us through how Scum!Bloscovi plays this game going forward and why.
You know my scum game isn't good enough to fool you and the, I don't know. 10 other townies analyzing the game as best as they can.
To tell the truth I am very close to replacing out based on the amount of flaming and abuse I have had to deal with from you too. It's really immature.
Key points I guess:
- Engage with Bloscovi, get him to explain his mindset and thought processes, and what he hopes to accomplish by doing X. He's bound to be wrong sometimes if he's town, and he's going to bus at some point if he's mafia - since he has zero conviction attacking people he /knows/ that he is town. I mean, it can happen, especially after he sees this, but it's extraordinarily difficult to attack someone who you know is town and make it sound like you're convinced.
- Later in the game, reread him, evaluate how genuine his mindset/thought processes is. Vote count analysis helps a lot in that regard.
- Scum!Bloscovi preys on inactive, complacent town. Put in the work later in the game, do some analysis, and always stay vigilant, if he is actually scum.
@CrystalS-Part of the game involves going out on a limb to some degree in order to catch scum. Always remember that we are on a clock. We lose if we don't catch them. In that mindset it would behoove you to figure out which of your null reads is most likely to be scum and then go from there.
That is really the only thing missing from your game right now. You have posted well since your replace in which is admirable considering HWP's slot was looking tainted at that point. Now I need you to help us catch scum.
I have exactly one more replacement.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I see. I'd definitely like to continue and am enjoying this set-up.
I just want the flaming and passive aggressive OOG stuff to stop.
Hopefully people can take a deep breath and play the game like adults and not like a hydra account.
Yeah, I'm going to start sifting through my null reads again tomorrow. I did Kraj and Jobie before I wrote that one since they're both super short. What do you think about Ghosting? Does neutral false claim seem plausible?
On a flavor related note. The Pakistani Weapons Dealer is from a deleted scene in the GoldenEye movie. I doubt Ghosting would false claim that since it's so obscure, but on the other hand it could be a fake role in his PM or his actual role name, just with Mafia changed to Neutral since flavor is already out he window.
Thanks for putting in the time. Fleshing out the null reads (even if you or I are wrong) is still a worthwhile endeavor.
I don't like to flavor game much. I'll comment from time to time but I really try to stay away from letting it be a factor in my voting. If you've been keeping up with me you can see how conflicted I have become over Ghosting. My gut says he's town despite so many players salivating for him to be killed. But it's not one of those reads where I can really fault them (at least the latter voters). I think Blos doesn't have an honest scum read on him. It seems like pin-point bussing. Go back and check it out. Proph barning him gave him early cred (for some reason) and then a strange wagon built up and then halted FOR A LOT OF POSTS. The pressure was on him but no one else felt convinced. Where I started to have the problem started right before the claim.
I would much rather see the others I've listed get vigged. But I think Ghosting might have hung his own noose if he is being truthful about being a neutral. Like I don't care if a neutral dies...at all. I'd prefer the death be scum but I'm one players in this game and don't expect everyone to blindly follow my read.
Does any of that make sense to you?
Maybe I'll start with a re-reread of Ghosting tomorrow. I was going to put him off because I did that PBPA but he has the most new stuff to look at. Kraj, Jobie, Matowar, Hunger, and IMAB have like twelve new posts combined or something. Huntzilla's not posting much either. Bleh.
-After reading back through IAMB, I think he's probably town. Exasperating, because he has outright claimed to be playing anti-town, but probably town.
-Gun to my head, Matowar is town. Scum doesn't face down the barrel of a vig, get asked by town to please try to provide content, and make it more readable so that it can be more easily parsed, and effectively go 'but...how about I don't do that?' It lacks self-preservation.
-Maybe Huntzilla needs to be re-examined, because I can't think of anything he's done recently. Entirely possible it happened while I was V/LA and I missed it though, but this is mostly just a mental note for me to check him out at some point to confirm the light town read I have, because my instinctual reaction is that he's coasting.
-Jobie is effectively true null. Everyone else is more likely to be town than him, from Hunger on up.
-Hunger is largely just in the 'Not strong town' cluster. I want to re-examine the whole Role PM fiasco earlier today, because he played a part in that, but he's been gone for the vast majority of the day, and left minimal impact on me when he's been around.
-shrug-?
I want to strengthen these reads, but it's near impossible to strengthen the reads without them posting more.
I want Ghosting dead. I think he's mafia, I think he took the only claim he could come up with that would give him a chance at survival, because claiming town wouldn't do it.
If he's mafia, we've had a wagon, and lots of interactions around him to look at. Who avoided the wagon? Who pushed elsewhere? Who handwaved it away as Ghosting being Ghosting?
If he's a neutral, then we look at it as if he were town, from a lynch perspective pre-claim, and see who was genuine, who wasn't. Who knew he was town, so avoided committing. (Spoiler: I probably want Brinatoo super dead in worlds where he actually is a neutral)
But I think where I'm currently at is:
If Ghosting is mafia, I want Kraj dead next (pushes on NAG/Mindreaver opposing Ghosting wagon).
If Ghosting is neutral, I want Brinatoo dead next (danced around committing to the wagon like he was trying to figure out if it was viable).
Silver maybe? You were posting not too long ago.
The rest of that ***** doesn't belong in here. Leave it at home.
Thank you.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The early game back and forth with you felt like a genuine attempt at understanding which would be weird coming from scum, but if I tilt my head I can see it as being a playstyle clash, which is where the genuineness could come in.
Only other thing that gives me some pause is in his most recent post (or second most recent?) where he responded to my massive wall with 'Yeah, that's fair'. Makes me slightly paranoid that we're looking at town who is having trouble getting invested.
Would you mind looking back at that response to me and giving thoughts?
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/search?search-thread-id=700341&by-author=Kraj is his ISO.