@Rhand: I don't know how much use it will be as it's a five player game in which we chose to not lynch on the only meaningful day, but it's also my only town game on forum mafia. Here you go.
Lol, we were in that game together. I completely forgot because it was so short.
You're right though, that's not useful meta.
@JD - In general, are you more worried about being scum-read as town or caught as scum?
Being caught as scum is worse than being scum read as town. What does this question do except generate WIFOM though?
I didn't ask what's worse, I asked which one worries you more. It may seem similar, but it's an entirely different question. Anyway, it's pretty far after the fact now so it doesn't really matter.
I would not, but if it helps with the information you want, you can consider my vote on him for all purposes but a willingness to immediately lynch him. While I don't trust him as town, I don't want him lynched until we've had more discussion.
I was going to unvote him though
Welp, we have four votes on a townie wagon, which isn't quite good enough for wagon analysis. I'm disappointed.
tom: My best scum game is the 2015 MTGS Mafia Invitational.
@Atog (I'll call you Atog to make you scumread me :P): I agree with your read on tom (in that his play in Stargate made me scared of his scum game), but I feel like it's a bit too early to call associative reads with Rhand. I don't agree with your point on Rhand yet.
jdisawesomesauce's post is a decent attempt at wagon analysis, and he has no vote, so. Unvote
Decent chance that jdisawesomesauce and D_V are both town. I hope there's scum in the people who voted him!
Oh wait. I think I already found one. Vote Shinen
Why did you vote Shinen here and why haven't you come back to it?
I will deal with this game tomorrow. A lot to digest.
oh youre here?
liking hunger.
if huntz is scum hes flailing under no real pressure, which doesnt make sense.
hes said some scummy stuff, but he always does that. i need to figure out his reasons when im on a computer and less hung over.
the vote for mindreaver is because he claimed that this is his first game of mafia and yet he appears to have a better grasp of what is going on for a noob than he expectedly would be. this caused me to suspect he was lying in that regards. i wanted to see how he would react. i also wasnt expecting this game to be as active over the weekend as it was. the slightly faster than anticipated beginning to the game caused my post to not have as bit an effect as i had hoped for. a little slow pace to the day and it would have generated a bit more conversation than it has. therefor mindreavers ignoring of my vote almost completely is a bit more hazy to figure out why it was like that.
the vote for mindreaver is because he claimed that this is his first game of mafia and yet he appears to have a better grasp of what is going on for a noob than he expectedly would be. this caused me to suspect he was lying in that regards. i wanted to see how he would react. i also wasnt expecting this game to be as active over the weekend as it was. the slightly faster than anticipated beginning to the game caused my post to not have as bit an effect as i had hoped for. a little slow pace to the day and it would have generated a bit more conversation than it has. therefor mindreavers ignoring of my vote almost completely is a bit more hazy to figure out why it was like that.
unvote
I'll take that as a compliment. Look mom, I'm competent!
I had a really hilarious analysis written of "Not Random" (Random meaning he pulled it out of a hat, but he's using negative language in front of it. Whats the deal tordeck, are you scum, or simply didn't use a hat, EXPLAIN NOW OR FACE MY CAPSLOCK).
But really I just figured I'd be patient. It's not like we've got anyone in Lynch range, and there are a couple people with low post counts.
@JD Can you explain this piece for me? What were you looking for here?
Sorry that sentence could have used rephrasing or a few commas. I wish D_V hadn't pointed out that I could just vote and see if my vote showed up to prove my claim. I wanted to see who would vote me instead of making that connection.
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Smile your day could be worse, so I did smile and it was worse.
Sorry that sentence could have used rephrasing or a few commas. I wish D_V hadn't pointed out that I could just vote and see if my vote showed up to prove my claim. I wanted to see who would vote me instead of making that connection.
To what end? To analyze the voting record once you go enough votes against you? Wagon Analysis so to speak
Tordeck's explanation makes sense to me. I'd actually had the same hunch, but decided there were plenty of resources to find information about Mafia online, and that there are reasons besides being scum (though they aren't necessarily the most honorable in general, they don't make you scum in a specific game) to hide one's experience. Hell, there are even arguably town reasons to hide your experience-if you're the best mafia player ever, you really don't want the night kill roles knowing that, do you?
And yeah, Rhand, sorry I can't be of more help, pfft. My other games have all been scum.
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EDH: UUUJin-Gitaxias, Core AugurUUU
Modern WWWHatebearsWWW
I will deal with this game tomorrow. A lot to digest.
oh youre here?
liking hunger.
if huntz is scum hes flailing under no real pressure, which doesnt make sense.
hes said some scummy stuff, but he always does that. i need to figure out his reasons when im on a computer and less hung over.
Flailing is definitely an over-exaggeration. Can you show me what looked like flailing to you?
Sorry that sentence could have used rephrasing or a few commas. I wish D_V hadn't pointed out that I could just vote and see if my vote showed up to prove my claim. I wanted to see who would vote me instead of making that connection.
To what end? To analyze the voting record once you go enough votes against you? Wagon Analysis so to speak
Not analysis of the whole wagon, just the voting following my reveal. I wanted to see who would jump on without thinking about my claim, it was offering a free wagon to join and I was hoping some scum members would take the bait. Unfortunately the first person to realise I could just vote was probably always going to post like D_V's and end the gambit.
I need to go back and analyse what actually happened.
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Smile your day could be worse, so I did smile and it was worse.
Ok I went back and had a look.
Proph unvotes, Shinen calls him on the unvote, which was a good call.
Proph says he believes the claim and it will be obvious if i have a vote or not as the day goes on.
I can't understand why he wouldn't want it proven then and there if he thought I was scum as his prior vote indicated.
Why would town be happy to wait on something that can easy be proven from someone they thought was scum?
FOS Proph
Tom's vote and reasoning reads legit with his follow up questioning dipping into PR fishing terriority but it reads like town that just got fixated on why no vote.
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Smile your day could be worse, so I did smile and it was worse.
I'm a little suspicious now that we have one confirmed vote-metalmind. In the books, there was always a pair (push and pull, seek and hide, etc). It's possible to have a second, opposite, power (one is a double voter and one nullifies a vote against them or something like that).
We don't see Killjoy and Hunger voting yet either. But you're the only one playing games (I would vote but I'm not going to on principle). In light of JDs claim, and confirmation, I'd like to see if you vote is counted.
Vote Rhand
Votecount
Ok so I'm gonna post a T/S list with some reasons in leiu of quoting a bunch and responding to it. If anyone has anything specific they want to know, feel free to ask.
I'm willing to vote to lynch any of the red dudes today.
T/S LIST Mindreaver
Has made at last two townslips that I can see (Mafia kill doesn't target, PGO kills whole scum team). He is a competent analyst, but is obviously new to mafia. Noob Town.
Hunger
He's kinda my Anti-Proph. I ALWAYS town read him. So I spent a little more time reading into him than I did others, and I came up with him being town again. First of all, he's the only one who caught Mind's townslips. Scum could have easily just not claimed to have noticed (and since no one else has said anything about it, maybe they are) but he did and I'm not the only one who caught that. We also seem to have similar reads on Huntz, and agree that Rhand's disdain toward shinen's guessing jd's role was forced.Furthermore, I like a lot of his questions as trying to determine alignment (like to jd "Which worries you more").
It's noteworthy, though, that two of his lean town reads (Rhand, JD) are scummy to me. One of us is misguided, methinks.
Atog
Atog has been reading as gamesolvey to me. He's actively scumhunting.
Disagree with him that Proph is town though.
shinen
I've liked shinen's posts. His lack of wanting to lay down his vote when told to seems to come from town mindset
Tom
I like Tom for town this game because I trust my ability to read him. His poker face is likely not very good at hiding his intentions (He's very emotive) And his game this time around seems town. I actually disliked his early posts, but the more he posted the more I liked him.
His theory on Proph is similar to mine as well. Lean Town
Tordeck
When he had originally voted for Mind, I had already realized he (Mind) was town, so I disliked the vote on him. After he explained, it made sense, and seemed well reasoned.
He hasn't really posted enough for my opinion of him to be solid. Null.
Huntz
I was gonna go into this whole thing where I thought Huntz was leaning scum, but then I realized something... Huntz is hard to read D1. I've had this problem before. So, I'm gonna see what he does today. Null for now.
DV
DV hasn't posted enough for me to get a solid read.
JD
So, my problem with JD's first post isn't math. It's he's playing the newb card. He's been gone a while, but the newb card always strikes me as suspicious, especially from a person who isn't really a noob.
His 50 likes Huntz for scum based on his first post being a nothing post. He further explains in 71 that he did a quick reread just before he posted 50 and Hunt's post bothered him. Gut says he felt that he had to have a scum read (like others would think it weird that he didn't have a scum read for some reason). Just gut there.
In 84, he says it was all a plan to see who would just jump on the wagon instead of asking him to vote. However in 127, he says he dislikes that DV pointed out that all he needed to do was vote. Wasn't that the point of JD's little plan though? Also in 115 among others, he says that he didn't vote because it wouldn't achieve anything. Not because of the plan (that Rhand thinks is a pure town mindset), but because it would not achieve anything. I'm thinking there was no plan.
Also in 115, he says that he likes shinen for thinking hunt is unvoteable, and that feels town. But in his T/S list in 127, Shinen is near the bottom, under the area he desciribes as his null reads (me, tordeck, hunger).
Proph
I usually always scumread Proph. This game is no different it seems. First post claims PGO N1. Claims fine, but paranoia is telling me maybe he just doesn't want to be targeted N1, and PGO is a good way to accomplish that.
In 22 though, He says "An always-on PGO would be pretty difficult to believe." when asked why he claimed the 'for Night 1 only' part of his ability by Tom, as if saying he was only claiming that part to make his claim believeable. This is a very odd slip for Proph to make, and maybe I'm reading too much into it.
The vote on JD in 39 is misguided, I feel. Some people focus on math early game to figure things out. I'm one of them quite a bit. See Saw (lol) V for this.
I dislike in 64 where he asks two people why they aren't voting. It's really early and not everyone is gonna be voting necessarily.
I also dislike 66 because, even though shinen is willing to say "basically my vote is on him for all purposes you care about" Proph still wants a phyisical vote for... some reason? Shinen's reason for not wanting to phyisically vote was fair enough.
in 73, he gives jd a softball townread with "decent attempt at wagon analysis, and he has no vote". Firstly, the wagon analysis was at shinen's prompting, which means the fact that he is analyzing his wagon is null because it wasn't his idea. Secondly, JD's reasons were literally "Huntz is OMGUS, Tom is gut, Proph is I believe his claim". No further explaination of any kind. Not a 'decent attempt' at anything. Thirdly, Proph just buys his claim, saying later that 'well, we will figure it out eventually that he has no vote' without requiring proof of any kind. And finally in this post, he makes a really fake sounding statement: "I hope there's scum in the people who voted him!"
In 75, he says that the game is 48 hours old, so he doesn't expect much of others yet. Except votes, apperently, as noted earlier?
In 82, he's worried that someone will accidently hammer jd. But wait, wasn't he sad there were only 4 votes on the wagon before? Now all of a sudden he doesn't want 5 votes on jd? Firstly, that's nowhere near hammer range, according to every mod votecount ever. Note: that is close to claim range though.
His 123 says he's scumreading shinen for not wanting to put his vote on jd. As I said before, shinen's reasoning for that was, iirc, that he was only leaning scum on him but not enough for a vote. The fact that Proph finds this suspicious is odd.Also his reasoning to Rhand on where 'yet' came from is very fencesitty.
Rhand
His 55 was odd for me because all his reads except JD were opposite of mine. He dislikes Atog and shinen, likes Proph and tom (who I had initially disliked). Starts out the post saying "There's only one thing stopping me from voting JD: Atog" Then by the end of the post, he was all about voting Atog and shinen. No mention of JD.
His 118 is troubling. It says that "someone should research how often 'while' is used as scum" forming a slight jab at shinen without actually committing to anything. This is also the point that he says he doesn't scumread JD for no reason. Further, he links shinen and Tordeck because 'shinen seems jealous that Tordeck gets to post so little" which doesn't seem to me to be a mindset town is usually in (It just feels too negative.) Later, he also claims that JD's post is from a pure town mentality. While this does mesh with the fact that he is now apperently townreading JD, the fact that he seems to be completely dismissing him as town is troubling to me here. Also I think JD's post is full of *****, so dismissing it as pure town is just wrong on that front. And finally, his disdain to the guessing feel really fake to me, as I mentioned in my analysis of Hunger above.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
In 127 I was disappointed more people didn't vote me before D_V picked up on it. I didn't dislike the action D_V took, in fact he got town points for it.
I didn't vote because it wouldn't achieve anything. the plan was something I realized I could do later. My initial hesitation to vote was purely because I knew it wouldn't show in a vote count.
Shinen had a interaction I thought was towny but his interactions I thought were null or scummy, hence the slightly south of null read. With my latest post noticing he called Proph on the unvote I put him on the town side of null.
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Smile your day could be worse, so I did smile and it was worse.
See, this is what's bothering me about JD. You VOLUNTEERED that claim. Nobody really pressured you for it. Nobody asked why you haven't voted yet. In fact, it seems specifically designed to get people to stop voting you. You had three votes at that point, then claim, then Tom votes you. Only then does "D_V ruin errythang". But really, it's was already ruined by the claim. As Proph said right after, it's going to be obvious one way or another that your claim was true or false. Nobody was going to vote you until we verified. I'm not even sure why you got Tom.
It's made worse by you now claiming that you only made that vote claim in order to see who would vote you. You could have just not claimed and see who jumped on. Or waited for a while. You were only at L-4 and 4 players had < 2 posts.
I'm having a very hard time imagining that I'd play it this way. If I was storing a vote, and knew I couldn't vote, I wouldn't volunteer any information about that. Because it paints a target on my forehead (but only if you are town). But you offered it up. We had to pull a vote out of shinen over several posts, and he's not even storing one.
Hunger
He's kinda my Anti-Proph. I ALWAYS town read him.
This is funny because I feel like I ALWAYS scum read you, at least early. And I feel like a lot of the time it's due to lack of engagement from you, which has again been the case up until this post.
In 84, he says it was all a plan to see who would just jump on the wagon instead of asking him to vote. However in 127, he says he dislikes that DV pointed out that all he needed to do was vote. Wasn't that the point of JD's little plan though? Also in 115 among others, he says that he didn't vote because it wouldn't achieve anything. Not because of the plan (that Rhand thinks is a pure town mindset), but because it would not achieve anything. I'm thinking there was no plan.
This is really good. Yesterday I had a post started pulling up these quotes and making a lot of the same points and then I got distracted with work and never finished it and then when I checked the thread this morning you made it. I just want to reiterate that the whole "plan" thing is just really fishy and the if the goal was to draw a wagon, NOT claiming was by far the best move. It doesn't preclude him from just being town that didn't think through it, but given that he has past experience it seems more likely that there is something here. Mindreaver seems to echo this sentiment as well.
I also really liked your Proph analysis. A lot of good points in there. I would like to see his answer to me and his rebut on your points.
Part of my town lean on Rhand despite not liking that part of his post was that Rhand really prides himself on his scum game and his posts so far have felt really loose. So it's was mostly meta, content-wise I liked that one post, but don't really love his posts since. He has focused on A LOT of meta and OOG stuff. His vote on Hunt also feels a bit over the top. Rhand is certainly good and I would like more time to get a better read on him.
I'm really liking this start from KJ and have him in my town pile right now.
@mindreaver
I specifically made the claim in response to been asked by Proph why I wasn't voting huntz if I thought he was scum.
Also I was at 4 votes not 3.
The way I offered the claim was the gambit seeing who would jump on instead of examining my claim. It wasn't ruined by the claim, it specifically needed the claim as a starting point.
You criticize my play for revealing the fact I couldn't vote but going through the whole day without voting was never going to go unnoticed there was no point hiding the fact, even if it paints a target on my forehead.
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Smile your day could be worse, so I did smile and it was worse.
Life is throwing me more curve balls so I am a little out of it mentally and will be lurking more than normal till this gets resolved. D1 for me is always a crap shoot anyway so hopefully things will work out by the time it ends and I can get back into game mode.
That said I am a bit perturbed that we already have two claims made without any real wagons being formed. People are just throwing information out there and I can't see why town would do that. JD is just asking for a NK with his double voter claim while Proph seems to be trying to live past N1. Neither gambit seems that thought out. Probably means they are both town though as I can't see a scum mindset attempting such bad plays.
Still not convince Mindreaver is what he says he is, as shinen stated though there are probably good reasons for why I am feeling this way so I am going to back burner it for now.
Killjoy on the other hand I am going to pursue. His T/S list is just plain bad to me. I know KJ is a better player than that and he should have seen what I did in regards to JD and Proph. To lump them both in his scum pile looks to me like he is trying to set up a mislynch while keeping himself clean by voting for his third option.
That said I am a bit perturbed that we already have two claims made without any real wagons being formed. People are just throwing information out there and I can't see why town would do that. JD is just asking for a NK with his double voter claim while Proph seems to be trying to live past N1. Neither gambit seems that thought out. Probably means they are both town though as I can't see a scum mindset attempting such bad plays.
If Proph's claim was bad in your opinion, why is this the first we are hearing of it?
Let's say he is telling the truth and he is a town PGO, what do you think the towny thing to do is in that situation?
Killjoy on the other hand I am going to pursue. His T/S list is just plain bad to me. I know KJ is a better player than that and he should have seen what I did in regards to JD and Proph. To lump them both in his scum pile looks to me like he is trying to set up a mislynch while keeping himself clean by voting for his third option.
Vote Killjoy
Please expand on what is bad about his list.
What DID you do in regards to JD and Proph? I don't get that statement. Until this post you haven't mentioned anyone in this game except Mindreaver? And explain why putting them in his scum pile is trying to set up a mislynch?
What is your opinion of me considering I pretty much agreed with most of what he said and really like him for town right now?
Overall, this post confuses me and puts Tordeck in leaning scum for me.
Still not convince Mindreaver is what he says he is, as shinen stated though there are probably good reasons for why I am feeling this way so I am going to back burner it for now.
Just gonna throw this out there for you guys. Check the signups. I said this was my first game, and at that time, what would be my reason to lie about that.
Further more, even saying that I did, and I'm a super mafia expert who is lying about my experience, explain how that has any bearing on my alignment if I claimed it before role PMs even went out? Before GJ even accepted my /in?
Unless I'm the best player in the universe and made the greatest gamble of all time. I think we can agree it's a bit silly.
Hunger needs to learn how to read before opening his mouth I see. How about you go back and actually read my post instead of just slinging dirt.
IGMEOY
Mind, as I said I am back burnering it for now. There are several reasons why you could be lying about your experience, none of them are relevant currently though.
Hunger needs to learn how to read before opening his mouth I see. How about you go back and actually read my post instead of just slinging dirt.
IGMEOY
I did read it. Multiple times. The tone here is not appreciated and seems like an overreaction.
Where am I slinging dirt? I asked a lot of questions because I didn't understand most of your post. Which you seem to not be interested in answering any of them?
Flailing is definitely an over-exaggeration. Can you show me what looked like flailing to you?
voting me. duh
im obviously town
killjoy has confidence he can read me. not sure what to think of that based on the two games hes been in with me, both of which i was town, and 1 of which he lynched me for the sweet N1 loss.
my town block right now is shinen, mindreaver, hunger, rhand, and maybe huntz
proph is scum. leaning that way with jd and tordeck.
dv, atoga, and kj need sorted out eventually.
Flailing is definitely an over-exaggeration. Can you show me what looked like flailing to you?
voting me. duh
im obviously town
killjoy has confidence he can read me. not sure what to think of that based on the two games hes been in with me, both of which i was town, and 1 of which he lynched me for the sweet N1 loss.
my town block right now is shinen, mindreaver, hunger, rhand, and maybe huntz
proph is scum. leaning that way with jd and tordeck.
dv, atoga, and kj need sorted out eventually.
You always make me smile.
How the hell do you go from I am flailing scum to maybe town...?
@Shinen: Alright, I see who you think is scum ("the lurkers", jd, Togs, Tom). My new question is: Why are you not pressuring your scumreads? I've been gone from this thread for two/three days, and all I see from you is just offering meta and commenting on one of Tordeck's posts.
How have your thoughts on that group changed over the last page or two?
Quote from tom »
shinen still town.
...buuuuddddddy
and i literally just looked at proph's 4 most recently completed games. if both town games were replacements and neither scum game was, it definitely COULD **** up my analysis. it didnt occur to me.
Why is Shinen town based on that post?
If you want to look at my last full town game, take a look at Gatecrash.
Quote from Hunger »
@Proph - Why did you claim right away instead of waiting until later in the Day?
When I saw my role, my mind immediately went to "claim this first thing" - aka, something like a miller. I never even considered any other possible ways to claim.
Quote from Huntzilla »
What I don't get is why one vote is getting so many people riled up? You were not in any way shape or form close to being lynched, or even in jeopardy, yet for some reason people are very scared for you. It may feel odd to you that I barned his theory, but I wanted to see what would happen if I did.
I think this is a reasonable attempt by Hunt to explain his prior action. I don't agree with your scumreads, but I can see the mindset in how you barned tom's "theory" on me and wanted to wait for reactions.
Quote from Hunger »
Why did you vote Shinen here and why haven't you come back to it?
I voted Shinen because he was not scumhunting and was overexplaining about the no-lynch. He was also trying to impede wagon analysis by not placing the fifth vote on jdisawesomesauce (I mean, I can understand his reasoning, but as town he has no reason not to place the fifth vote if I was going to unvote immediately afterwards).
I did come back to it, though! It was when I was asking Shinen about his scumreads.
Quote from jd »
Ok I went back and had a look.
Proph unvotes, Shinen calls him on the unvote, which was a good call.
Proph says he believes the claim and it will be obvious if i have a vote or not as the day goes on.
I can't understand why he wouldn't want it proven then and there if he thought I was scum as his prior vote indicated.
Why would town be happy to wait on something that can easy be proven from someone they thought was scum?
FOS Proph
Tom's vote and reasoning reads legit with his follow up questioning dipping into PR fishing terriority but it reads like town that just got fixated on why no vote.
I'm very confused here. I thought you were scum when you were engaging in the NL/math discussion, but that quickly evaporated once you started to post your wagon analysis and claimed your lack of vote. RVS-scumreads are usually not that substantial, and you engaging in self-wagon analysis, plus claiming the no-vote, made me rapidly reverse the read.
@killjoy:
1. What have you liked about Shinen's posts, and how does placing down the vote come from a town mindset?
2. What posts from tom did you dislike, and how did you come around on him being town? Walk me through the entire process here.
3. Why you think jd is scum, despite being unable to vote?
killjoy/Hunger are unaligned, which is nice.
Quote from killjoy »
The vote on JD in 39 is misguided, I feel. Some people focus on math early game to figure things out. I'm one of them quite a bit. See Saw (lol) V for this.
Math makes more sense there, because it was a heavily mechanic-based Micro, not a mafia game based on behavioral analysis.
I'll raise you a kpaca quote:
Quote from kpaca »
Well I have a vig shot and if you don't drop this lynch based on math load of bologna then I will use it on you so how about that?
Quote from killjoy »
I dislike in 64 where he asks two people why they aren't voting. It's really early and not everyone is gonna be voting necessarily.
People should use their vote, regardless of what time of Day it is. When I see people who aren't using their vote if they are scumreading somebody, it raises my hackles.
Quote from killjoy »
I also dislike 66 because, even though shinen is willing to say "basically my vote is on him for all purposes you care about" Proph still wants a phyisical vote for... some reason? Shinen's reason for not wanting to phyisically vote was fair enough.
There is no reason why a townie wouldn't hop on jd's wagon if I promised to unvote immediately after. I wanted a physical vote, still, because "pledges to vote" and stuff like that have historically been less accurate than actual wagon analysis based on real votes.
Quote from killjoy »
in 73, he gives jd a softball townread with "decent attempt at wagon analysis, and he has no vote". Firstly, the wagon analysis was at shinen's prompting, which means the fact that he is analyzing his wagon is null because it wasn't his idea. Secondly, JD's reasons were literally "Huntz is OMGUS, Tom is gut, Proph is I believe his claim". No further explaination of any kind. Not a 'decent attempt' at anything. Thirdly, Proph just buys his claim, saying later that 'well, we will figure it out eventually that he has no vote' without requiring proof of any kind. And finally in this post, he makes a really fake sounding statement: "I hope there's scum in the people who voted him!"
That wasn't wagon analysis, though? Those were just quick thoughts on three players: Hunt, tomsloger, and me. If you look closer in the post he explains his mindset and reasoning with Mindreaver's post and Shinen's post.
Why do you think it's scummy to just accept the vote? If he's scum and actually has a vote (and claims that he's voteless) then that would resolve itself. I backed off of jd due to his claim rather than waiting for him to "prove" it because it's incredibly easy to prove, and he would never claim voteless when he is scum (and has a vote).
I was being tongue in cheek/humorous with the "I hope there's scum in the people who voted him!". If you think it sounds fake, go ahead and believe it.
Quote from killjoy »
In 75, he says that the game is 48 hours old, so he doesn't expect much of others yet. Except votes, apperently, as noted earlier?
See my response above.
Quote from killjoy »
In 82, he's worried that someone will accidently hammer jd. But wait, wasn't he sad there were only 4 votes on the wagon before? Now all of a sudden he doesn't want 5 votes on jd? Firstly, that's nowhere near hammer range, according to every mod votecount ever. Note: that is close to claim range though.
I didn't want jd to get up to L-1, though I was perfectly fine with him being at L-2 for a split second.
Quote from killjoy »
His 123 says he's scumreading shinen for not wanting to put his vote on jd. As I said before, shinen's reasoning for that was, iirc, that he was only leaning scum on him but not enough for a vote. The fact that Proph finds this suspicious is odd.Also his reasoning to Rhand on where 'yet' came from is very fencesitty.
Fair enough on Rhand - I can definitely see where you would get that impression.
Your other point is fully explained by my rationale on votes.
I think you're being hung up on something similar to tom: You're bringing up a lot of questionable points against me (and I can fully explain the reasoning behind them), but none of the things you explain add up to a scum mindset.
----
I doubt that Mindreaver is lying about his experience, but it's not that relevant at the moment. Mindreaver, I suggest just carrying on with scumhunting.
Tordeck seems town to me. I can't see scum!Tordeck being intentionally anti-town, especially after a quick skim of his ISO in Predator Mafia.
So I am going to propose that anyone who showed surprise at JD's role/disbelief is town. I understand how his mechanic is working and believe that anyone who expressed disbelief does not have this role type, and since I find it highly unlikely that the mafia team does not have one of these abilities I think anyone on the mafia team would know how JD's ability works.
welp. i read proph's iso in gatecrash. it does not change my opinion.
the closest i could come to one of those statements was:
Quote from proph »
I now have a general framework from which to view the game, so expect more content and analysis from me. Aside from the occasional "why is Az declaring this person town or scum with no reasoning and making me feel dumb" I think I've successfully passed the "out of my league" hurdle, but we'll see I guess.
but even that one came at the end of this post, which was full of information.
and
Quote from proph »
Should have time to look over the game and reread today. Need to solidify reads on a few players, here.
which came right after a v/la and immediately before a big catchup post.
Part of the reason I asked about your decision to claim early is it seems to me that your mindset is very driven towards placing votes and having wagon analysis. Your early claim to me seems like it was something you must have thought would likely prevent you from getting votes for at least toDay which seems counterproductive to your mindset. I was mostly curious to see if you would say that you at least thought about that.
RE:Shinen
1. The thing that really jumped out at me was this
I'm just showing my work and listing out what I think about certain players. I'm kind of over naked voting people for reactions, at this stage of my mafia career.
I would not, but if it helps with the information you want, you can consider my vote on him for all purposes but a willingness to immediately lynch him. While I don't trust him as town, I don't want him lynched until we've had more discussion.
I was going to unvote him though
Welp, we have four votes on a townie wagon, which isn't quite good enough for wagon analysis. I'm disappointed.
tom: My best scum game is the 2015 MTGS Mafia Invitational.
@Atog (I'll call you Atog to make you scumread me :P): I agree with your read on tom (in that his play in Stargate made me scared of his scum game), but I feel like it's a bit too early to call associative reads with Rhand. I don't agree with your point on Rhand yet.
jdisawesomesauce's post is a decent attempt at wagon analysis, and he has no vote, so. Unvote
Decent chance that jdisawesomesauce and D_V are both town. I hope there's scum in the people who voted him!
Oh wait. I think I already found one. Vote Shinen
So then I looked for your reasoning and the only mention of him at that point was this
I dislike Shinen's post - it falls into the same trap as Mindreaver's posts as being light on analysis and heavy on general information. And I offer him a similar question - if you don't like jd as town, then why are you not voting him?
But that does not flow at all with your actual vote.
2. Yes you did mention him as being scummy again and pushed him on his reads, I missed that and so you did come back to it in that sense. I think why I missed it and the part of it that is still strange to me is you have been pretty adamant about people placing their votes and you never put yours back on Shinen after the little JD vote/unvote thing you did. Specifically
People should use their vote, regardless of what time of Day it is. When I see people who aren't using their vote if they are scumreading somebody, it raises my hackles.
Also on that subject, I use my vote sparingly in almost all mafia games including this one in which I haven't placed a vote yet despite saying I am leaning scum on a couple players. Why haven't you said anything to me about it?
The reason these things are troubling to me is because it feels like you are spouting off town rhetoric yet not holding yourself to it. AKA faking it.
Why do I have to be unaligned with KJ and Tordeck?
@Everyone
RE:Tordeck
So, I kind of think he just has to be town considering how blatantly anti-town he is being. Unless he is gambiting really hard that that's what everyone will think and trying to WIFOM it.
Am I crazy here? Can everyone chime in on your thoughts about his response to me? Also, did his post that I questioned actually make sense to anyone and are my questions just ridiculous? I am so confused about what is going on there.
Also, I would like to point out that historically people that try to set up pairs on D1 (like Proph is doing with me/kj and me/tordeck) with very little info are much more likely to be mafia. I have been caught that way myself despite knowing it was a thing as it's something easy to fall into.
Am I crazy here? Can everyone chime in on your thoughts about his response to me? Also, did his post that I questioned actually make sense to anyone and are my questions just ridiculous? I am so confused about what is going on there.
So, I had to read his post a few times before getting the gist of it. I will agree it's not phrased in an exactly clear manner. I've bolded the relevant parts below:
That said I am a bit perturbed that we already have two claims made without any real wagons being formed. People are just throwing information out there and I can't see why town would do that. JD is just asking for a NK with his double voter claim while Proph seems to be trying to live past N1. Neither gambit seems that thought out. Probably means they are both town though as I can't see a scum mindset attempting such bad plays.
Still not convince Mindreaver is what he says he is, as shinen stated though there are probably good reasons for why I am feeling this way so I am going to back burner it for now.
Killjoy on the other hand I am going to pursue. His T/S list is just plain bad to me. I know KJ is a better player than that and he should have seen what I did in regards to JD and Proph. To lump them both in his scum pile looks to me like he is trying to set up a mislynch while keeping himself clean by voting for his third option.
The reason it's unclear what he's talking about in the second bold part, is because in between he rambles over to have a convo with me. In other words:
Point #1
Unrelated thought
Point #2 referencing Point #1
Now, I can see both sides here. It wasn't clear. But it wasn't impossible to figure out either. So I can get #176. What I can't quite get is the vitriol expressed in #181. Don't just take your ball and go home because somebody doesn't understand you, clarify until they do.
@Mindreaver - Yeah, I was reading, "did," as a verb. As in KJ should have seen what Tordeck DID as opposed to he should have seen what Tordeck SAW. "He should have seen what I [saw]..." would have made more sense to me. That's my bad.
So that makes part of my questions irrelevant, but the rest of what I asked is still relevant. To revise:
That said I am a bit perturbed that we already have two claims made without any real wagons being formed. People are just throwing information out there and I can't see why town would do that. JD is just asking for a NK with his double voter claim while Proph seems to be trying to live past N1. Neither gambit seems that thought out. Probably means they are both town though as I can't see a scum mindset attempting such bad plays.
If Proph's claim was bad in your opinion, why is this the first we are hearing of it?
Let's say he is telling the truth and he is a town PGO, what do you think the towny thing to do is in that situation?
Killjoy on the other hand I am going to pursue. His T/S list is just plain bad to me. I know KJ is a better player than that and he should have seen what I did in regards to JD and Proph. To lump them both in his scum pile looks to me like he is trying to set up a mislynch while keeping himself clean by voting for his third option.
Vote Killjoy
Please expand on what is bad about his list. If the whole thing is plain bad, what else other than JD/Proph don't you like or is that it?
What DID you do in regards to JD and Proph? I don't get that statement. Until this post you haven't mentioned anyone in this game except Mindreaver? And explain why putting them in his scum pile is trying to set up a mislynch?
What is your opinion of me considering I pretty much agreed with most of what he said and really like him for town right now?
Overall, this post confuses me and puts Tordeck in leaning scum for me.
@Tordeck - Now that I get what you were saying, how about you oblige me and answer the rest of the questions.
KJ: why didn't you add that you're always paranoia about me in that post?
You explain how you read Proph as scum and Hunger as town, but not how you always think I am scum.
Catching up on the rest of the game. Life is hectic.
Part of the reason I asked about your decision to claim early is it seems to me that your mindset is very driven towards placing votes and having wagon analysis. Your early claim to me seems like it was something you must have thought would likely prevent you from getting votes for at least toDay which seems counterproductive to your mindset. I was mostly curious to see if you would say that you at least thought about that.
That is true, but I mostly treated my role as a miller - if I claimed later on in the Day it would just be a huge distraction. Like I said, I did not consider any other possibility.
Quote from Hunger »
But that does not flow at all with your actual vote.
How does it not? It should have been obvious that I was suspecting Shinen, and after jd proved himself to be town I was going to vote him.
Quote from Hunger »
2. Yes you did mention him as being scummy again and pushed him on his reads, I missed that and so you did come back to it in that sense. I think why I missed it and the part of it that is still strange to me is you have been pretty adamant about people placing their votes and you never put yours back on Shinen after the little JD vote/unvote thing you did.
You got me on this one. I forgot that I wasn't voting Shinen.
Vote: Shinen
Quote from Hunger »
Also on that subject, I use my vote sparingly in almost all mafia games including this one in which I haven't placed a vote yet despite saying I am leaning scum on a couple players. Why haven't you said anything to me about it?
Sadly, I wasn't keeping track of this one as well. I genuinely missed the fact that you haven't voted yet.
Alright then - if you think I'm scum, you should definitely be voting me. Why do you use your vote sparingly, and why are you not using it to pressure people who you think are scum (like me)?
Quote from Hunger »
The reason these things are troubling to me is because it feels like you are spouting off town rhetoric yet not holding yourself to it. AKA faking it.
If you think that, then by all means. It looks to me that you're scumreading me based on me missing certain stuff, like the fact that I didn't revote for Shinen or didn't keep track of your vote.
Quote from Hunger »
Why do I have to be unaligned with KJ and Tordeck?
Tordeck's post is unnecessarily hostile to you, and he blatantly refused to answer a question which I have a very difficult time seeing coming from scumbuddies. With killjoy, it's because you were agreeing/buddying to him after his reads post, which is something scum never do to each other.
Quote from Hunger »
Also, I would like to point out that historically people that try to set up pairs on D1 (like Proph is doing with me/kj and me/tordeck) with very little info are much more likely to be mafia. I have been caught that way myself despite knowing it was a thing as it's something easy to fall into.
I agree that people are likely to be scum when they create pairs, but I'm doing something entirely different.
I'm creating /unaligned/ pairs - they are useful for me because when one of the paired people flips scum, I'll immediately townclear the other one. It lets me gain two alignment "flips" for the price of one.
Jesus H Christ, I really have to spell everything out for you dont I?
Lets see in order.
It was ,my 4th post of the game, when exactly would have been a good time to address it? In the middle of dealing with Mindreaver?
Correct me if I am misremebering the role but a PGO kills anyone that targets him. The town play is to play just townie enough to get the scum to target him but not townie enough that any protective role would try to do so.
I guess he didnt clearly come out and state it, its not hard to read between the lines though.
His bad play with the scum pile basically negates the whole list's value so there for is all bad.
Jesus H Christ, I really have to spell everything out for you dont I?
Lets see in order.
It was ,my 4th post of the game, when exactly would have been a good time to address it? In the middle of dealing with Mindreaver?
Correct me if I am misremebering the role but a PGO kills anyone that targets him. The town play is to play just townie enough to get the scum to target him but not townie enough that any protective role would try to do so.
I guess he didnt clearly come out and state it, its not hard to read between the lines though.
His bad play with the scum pile basically negates the whole list's value so there for is all bad.
To answer that would get me a flame warning.
Remember the way I claimed the role in the Dies to Removal game we played a few months ago Tordeck? Doesn't it feel pretty similar here to Proph's claim? Townies don't tend to think about lying about the role. Granted I was under significant pressure, but here Proph claimed immediately, so there is that rather large difference.
You're right though, that's not useful meta.
liking hunger.
if huntz is scum hes flailing under no real pressure, which doesnt make sense.
hes said some scummy stuff, but he always does that. i need to figure out his reasons when im on a computer and less hung over.
unvote
The Family
I'll take that as a compliment. Look mom, I'm competent!
I had a really hilarious analysis written of "Not Random" (Random meaning he pulled it out of a hat, but he's using negative language in front of it. Whats the deal tordeck, are you scum, or simply didn't use a hat, EXPLAIN NOW OR FACE MY CAPSLOCK).
But really I just figured I'd be patient. It's not like we've got anyone in Lynch range, and there are a couple people with low post counts.
@JD Can you explain this piece for me? What were you looking for here?
I have a question. How often do mafia members know each others roles on day 1 explicitly?
To what end? To analyze the voting record once you go enough votes against you? Wagon Analysis so to speak
And yeah, Rhand, sorry I can't be of more help, pfft. My other games have all been scum.
UUUJin-Gitaxias, Core AugurUUU
Modern
WWWHatebearsWWW
I think always. Maybe there's a few exceptions to that, but mafia usually gets to chat pre-game.
@shinen: link me a scum game then pls?
UUUJin-Gitaxias, Core AugurUUU
Modern
WWWHatebearsWWW
Flailing is definitely an over-exaggeration. Can you show me what looked like flailing to you?
Indeed, also useless meta
off-site games maybe?
Not analysis of the whole wagon, just the voting following my reveal. I wanted to see who would jump on without thinking about my claim, it was offering a free wagon to join and I was hoping some scum members would take the bait. Unfortunately the first person to realise I could just vote was probably always going to post like D_V's and end the gambit.
I need to go back and analyse what actually happened.
Proph unvotes, Shinen calls him on the unvote, which was a good call.
Proph says he believes the claim and it will be obvious if i have a vote or not as the day goes on.
I can't understand why he wouldn't want it proven then and there if he thought I was scum as his prior vote indicated.
Why would town be happy to wait on something that can easy be proven from someone they thought was scum?
FOS Proph
Tom's vote and reasoning reads legit with his follow up questioning dipping into PR fishing terriority but it reads like town that just got fixated on why no vote.
Vote Rhand
Votecount
Ok so I'm gonna post a T/S list with some reasons in leiu of quoting a bunch and responding to it. If anyone has anything specific they want to know, feel free to ask.
I'm willing to vote to lynch any of the red dudes today.
T/S LIST
Mindreaver
Has made at last two townslips that I can see (Mafia kill doesn't target, PGO kills whole scum team). He is a competent analyst, but is obviously new to mafia. Noob Town.
Hunger
He's kinda my Anti-Proph. I ALWAYS town read him. So I spent a little more time reading into him than I did others, and I came up with him being town again. First of all, he's the only one who caught Mind's townslips. Scum could have easily just not claimed to have noticed (and since no one else has said anything about it, maybe they are) but he did and I'm not the only one who caught that. We also seem to have similar reads on Huntz, and agree that Rhand's disdain toward shinen's guessing jd's role was forced.Furthermore, I like a lot of his questions as trying to determine alignment (like to jd "Which worries you more").
It's noteworthy, though, that two of his lean town reads (Rhand, JD) are scummy to me. One of us is misguided, methinks.
Atog
Atog has been reading as gamesolvey to me. He's actively scumhunting.
Disagree with him that Proph is town though.
shinen
I've liked shinen's posts. His lack of wanting to lay down his vote when told to seems to come from town mindset
Tom
I like Tom for town this game because I trust my ability to read him. His poker face is likely not very good at hiding his intentions (He's very emotive) And his game this time around seems town. I actually disliked his early posts, but the more he posted the more I liked him.
His theory on Proph is similar to mine as well. Lean Town
Tordeck
When he had originally voted for Mind, I had already realized he (Mind) was town, so I disliked the vote on him. After he explained, it made sense, and seemed well reasoned.
He hasn't really posted enough for my opinion of him to be solid. Null.
Huntz
I was gonna go into this whole thing where I thought Huntz was leaning scum, but then I realized something... Huntz is hard to read D1. I've had this problem before. So, I'm gonna see what he does today. Null for now.
DV
DV hasn't posted enough for me to get a solid read.
JD
So, my problem with JD's first post isn't math. It's he's playing the newb card. He's been gone a while, but the newb card always strikes me as suspicious, especially from a person who isn't really a noob.
His 50 likes Huntz for scum based on his first post being a nothing post. He further explains in 71 that he did a quick reread just before he posted 50 and Hunt's post bothered him. Gut says he felt that he had to have a scum read (like others would think it weird that he didn't have a scum read for some reason). Just gut there.
In 84, he says it was all a plan to see who would just jump on the wagon instead of asking him to vote. However in 127, he says he dislikes that DV pointed out that all he needed to do was vote. Wasn't that the point of JD's little plan though? Also in 115 among others, he says that he didn't vote because it wouldn't achieve anything. Not because of the plan (that Rhand thinks is a pure town mindset), but because it would not achieve anything. I'm thinking there was no plan.
Also in 115, he says that he likes shinen for thinking hunt is unvoteable, and that feels town. But in his T/S list in 127, Shinen is near the bottom, under the area he desciribes as his null reads (me, tordeck, hunger).
Proph
I usually always scumread Proph. This game is no different it seems. First post claims PGO N1. Claims fine, but paranoia is telling me maybe he just doesn't want to be targeted N1, and PGO is a good way to accomplish that.
In 22 though, He says "An always-on PGO would be pretty difficult to believe." when asked why he claimed the 'for Night 1 only' part of his ability by Tom, as if saying he was only claiming that part to make his claim believeable. This is a very odd slip for Proph to make, and maybe I'm reading too much into it.
The vote on JD in 39 is misguided, I feel. Some people focus on math early game to figure things out. I'm one of them quite a bit. See Saw (lol) V for this.
I dislike in 64 where he asks two people why they aren't voting. It's really early and not everyone is gonna be voting necessarily.
I also dislike 66 because, even though shinen is willing to say "basically my vote is on him for all purposes you care about" Proph still wants a phyisical vote for... some reason? Shinen's reason for not wanting to phyisically vote was fair enough.
in 73, he gives jd a softball townread with "decent attempt at wagon analysis, and he has no vote". Firstly, the wagon analysis was at shinen's prompting, which means the fact that he is analyzing his wagon is null because it wasn't his idea. Secondly, JD's reasons were literally "Huntz is OMGUS, Tom is gut, Proph is I believe his claim". No further explaination of any kind. Not a 'decent attempt' at anything. Thirdly, Proph just buys his claim, saying later that 'well, we will figure it out eventually that he has no vote' without requiring proof of any kind. And finally in this post, he makes a really fake sounding statement: "I hope there's scum in the people who voted him!"
In 75, he says that the game is 48 hours old, so he doesn't expect much of others yet. Except votes, apperently, as noted earlier?
In 82, he's worried that someone will accidently hammer jd. But wait, wasn't he sad there were only 4 votes on the wagon before? Now all of a sudden he doesn't want 5 votes on jd? Firstly, that's nowhere near hammer range, according to every mod votecount ever. Note: that is close to claim range though.
His 123 says he's scumreading shinen for not wanting to put his vote on jd. As I said before, shinen's reasoning for that was, iirc, that he was only leaning scum on him but not enough for a vote. The fact that Proph finds this suspicious is odd.Also his reasoning to Rhand on where 'yet' came from is very fencesitty.
Rhand
His 55 was odd for me because all his reads except JD were opposite of mine. He dislikes Atog and shinen, likes Proph and tom (who I had initially disliked). Starts out the post saying "There's only one thing stopping me from voting JD: Atog" Then by the end of the post, he was all about voting Atog and shinen. No mention of JD.
His 118 is troubling. It says that "someone should research how often 'while' is used as scum" forming a slight jab at shinen without actually committing to anything. This is also the point that he says he doesn't scumread JD for no reason. Further, he links shinen and Tordeck because 'shinen seems jealous that Tordeck gets to post so little" which doesn't seem to me to be a mindset town is usually in (It just feels too negative.) Later, he also claims that JD's post is from a pure town mentality. While this does mesh with the fact that he is now apperently townreading JD, the fact that he seems to be completely dismissing him as town is troubling to me here. Also I think JD's post is full of *****, so dismissing it as pure town is just wrong on that front. And finally, his disdain to the guessing feel really fake to me, as I mentioned in my analysis of Hunger above.
I didn't vote because it wouldn't achieve anything. the plan was something I realized I could do later. My initial hesitation to vote was purely because I knew it wouldn't show in a vote count.
Shinen had a interaction I thought was towny but his interactions I thought were null or scummy, hence the slightly south of null read. With my latest post noticing he called Proph on the unvote I put him on the town side of null.
It's made worse by you now claiming that you only made that vote claim in order to see who would vote you. You could have just not claimed and see who jumped on. Or waited for a while. You were only at L-4 and 4 players had < 2 posts.
I'm having a very hard time imagining that I'd play it this way. If I was storing a vote, and knew I couldn't vote, I wouldn't volunteer any information about that. Because it paints a target on my forehead (but only if you are town). But you offered it up. We had to pull a vote out of shinen over several posts, and he's not even storing one.
This is really good. Yesterday I had a post started pulling up these quotes and making a lot of the same points and then I got distracted with work and never finished it and then when I checked the thread this morning you made it. I just want to reiterate that the whole "plan" thing is just really fishy and the if the goal was to draw a wagon, NOT claiming was by far the best move. It doesn't preclude him from just being town that didn't think through it, but given that he has past experience it seems more likely that there is something here. Mindreaver seems to echo this sentiment as well.
I also really liked your Proph analysis. A lot of good points in there. I would like to see his answer to me and his rebut on your points.
Part of my town lean on Rhand despite not liking that part of his post was that Rhand really prides himself on his scum game and his posts so far have felt really loose. So it's was mostly meta, content-wise I liked that one post, but don't really love his posts since. He has focused on A LOT of meta and OOG stuff. His vote on Hunt also feels a bit over the top. Rhand is certainly good and I would like more time to get a better read on him.
I'm really liking this start from KJ and have him in my town pile right now.
I specifically made the claim in response to been asked by Proph why I wasn't voting huntz if I thought he was scum.
Also I was at 4 votes not 3.
The way I offered the claim was the gambit seeing who would jump on instead of examining my claim. It wasn't ruined by the claim, it specifically needed the claim as a starting point.
You criticize my play for revealing the fact I couldn't vote but going through the whole day without voting was never going to go unnoticed there was no point hiding the fact, even if it paints a target on my forehead.
That said I am a bit perturbed that we already have two claims made without any real wagons being formed. People are just throwing information out there and I can't see why town would do that. JD is just asking for a NK with his double voter claim while Proph seems to be trying to live past N1. Neither gambit seems that thought out. Probably means they are both town though as I can't see a scum mindset attempting such bad plays.
Still not convince Mindreaver is what he says he is, as shinen stated though there are probably good reasons for why I am feeling this way so I am going to back burner it for now.
Killjoy on the other hand I am going to pursue. His T/S list is just plain bad to me. I know KJ is a better player than that and he should have seen what I did in regards to JD and Proph. To lump them both in his scum pile looks to me like he is trying to set up a mislynch while keeping himself clean by voting for his third option.
Vote Killjoy
The Family
Let's say he is telling the truth and he is a town PGO, what do you think the towny thing to do is in that situation?
When did JD claim doublevoter?
Please expand on what is bad about his list.
What DID you do in regards to JD and Proph? I don't get that statement. Until this post you haven't mentioned anyone in this game except Mindreaver? And explain why putting them in his scum pile is trying to set up a mislynch?
What is your opinion of me considering I pretty much agreed with most of what he said and really like him for town right now?
Overall, this post confuses me and puts Tordeck in leaning scum for me.
Just gonna throw this out there for you guys. Check the signups. I said this was my first game, and at that time, what would be my reason to lie about that.
Further more, even saying that I did, and I'm a super mafia expert who is lying about my experience, explain how that has any bearing on my alignment if I claimed it before role PMs even went out? Before GJ even accepted my /in?
Unless I'm the best player in the universe and made the greatest gamble of all time. I think we can agree it's a bit silly.
IGMEOY
Mind, as I said I am back burnering it for now. There are several reasons why you could be lying about your experience, none of them are relevant currently though.
The Family
Where am I slinging dirt? I asked a lot of questions because I didn't understand most of your post. Which you seem to not be interested in answering any of them?
I didn't. The only thing I claimed was that I have no vote today. Anything else is speculation
im obviously town
killjoy has confidence he can read me. not sure what to think of that based on the two games hes been in with me, both of which i was town, and 1 of which he lynched me for the sweet N1 loss.
my town block right now is shinen, mindreaver, hunger, rhand, and maybe huntz
proph is scum. leaning that way with jd and tordeck.
dv, atoga, and kj need sorted out eventually.
The Family
You always make me smile.
How the hell do you go from I am flailing scum to maybe town...?
Didn't realize that meant I wasn't scum in your eyes...
Flailing usually is only in reference to scum... I assumed.
My bad.
How have your thoughts on that group changed over the last page or two?
Why is Shinen town based on that post?
If you want to look at my last full town game, take a look at Gatecrash.
When I saw my role, my mind immediately went to "claim this first thing" - aka, something like a miller. I never even considered any other possible ways to claim.
I think this is a reasonable attempt by Hunt to explain his prior action. I don't agree with your scumreads, but I can see the mindset in how you barned tom's "theory" on me and wanted to wait for reactions.
I voted Shinen because he was not scumhunting and was overexplaining about the no-lynch. He was also trying to impede wagon analysis by not placing the fifth vote on jdisawesomesauce (I mean, I can understand his reasoning, but as town he has no reason not to place the fifth vote if I was going to unvote immediately afterwards).
I did come back to it, though! It was when I was asking Shinen about his scumreads.
I'm very confused here. I thought you were scum when you were engaging in the NL/math discussion, but that quickly evaporated once you started to post your wagon analysis and claimed your lack of vote. RVS-scumreads are usually not that substantial, and you engaging in self-wagon analysis, plus claiming the no-vote, made me rapidly reverse the read.
@killjoy:
1. What have you liked about Shinen's posts, and how does placing down the vote come from a town mindset?
2. What posts from tom did you dislike, and how did you come around on him being town? Walk me through the entire process here.
3. Why you think jd is scum, despite being unable to vote?
killjoy/Hunger are unaligned, which is nice.
Math makes more sense there, because it was a heavily mechanic-based Micro, not a mafia game based on behavioral analysis.
I'll raise you a kpaca quote:
People should use their vote, regardless of what time of Day it is. When I see people who aren't using their vote if they are scumreading somebody, it raises my hackles.
There is no reason why a townie wouldn't hop on jd's wagon if I promised to unvote immediately after. I wanted a physical vote, still, because "pledges to vote" and stuff like that have historically been less accurate than actual wagon analysis based on real votes.
That wasn't wagon analysis, though? Those were just quick thoughts on three players: Hunt, tomsloger, and me. If you look closer in the post he explains his mindset and reasoning with Mindreaver's post and Shinen's post.
Why do you think it's scummy to just accept the vote? If he's scum and actually has a vote (and claims that he's voteless) then that would resolve itself. I backed off of jd due to his claim rather than waiting for him to "prove" it because it's incredibly easy to prove, and he would never claim voteless when he is scum (and has a vote).
I was being tongue in cheek/humorous with the "I hope there's scum in the people who voted him!". If you think it sounds fake, go ahead and believe it.
See my response above. I didn't want jd to get up to L-1, though I was perfectly fine with him being at L-2 for a split second.
Fair enough on Rhand - I can definitely see where you would get that impression.
Your other point is fully explained by my rationale on votes.
I think you're being hung up on something similar to tom: You're bringing up a lot of questionable points against me (and I can fully explain the reasoning behind them), but none of the things you explain add up to a scum mindset.
----
I doubt that Mindreaver is lying about his experience, but it's not that relevant at the moment. Mindreaver, I suggest just carrying on with scumhunting.
Tordeck seems town to me. I can't see scum!Tordeck being intentionally anti-town, especially after a quick skim of his ISO in Predator Mafia.
Tordeck/Hunger unaligned pairs, I guess. Maybe?
@proph gonna read gatecrash before the Day is out.
as for shinen, hes said some things i cant see coming from scum.
namely: these arent things scum want to admit to.
the closest i could come to one of those statements was: but even that one came at the end of this post, which was full of information.
and which came right after a v/la and immediately before a big catchup post.
I pretty much soft claimed twice this game now =)
Alright then, feel free to keep scumreading me based on some random meta and being useless.
Part of the reason I asked about your decision to claim early is it seems to me that your mindset is very driven towards placing votes and having wagon analysis. Your early claim to me seems like it was something you must have thought would likely prevent you from getting votes for at least toDay which seems counterproductive to your mindset. I was mostly curious to see if you would say that you at least thought about that.
RE:Shinen
1. The thing that really jumped out at me was this I read that and then scrolled up and saw this So then I looked for your reasoning and the only mention of him at that point was this But that does not flow at all with your actual vote.
2. Yes you did mention him as being scummy again and pushed him on his reads, I missed that and so you did come back to it in that sense. I think why I missed it and the part of it that is still strange to me is you have been pretty adamant about people placing their votes and you never put yours back on Shinen after the little JD vote/unvote thing you did. Specifically
Also on that subject, I use my vote sparingly in almost all mafia games including this one in which I haven't placed a vote yet despite saying I am leaning scum on a couple players. Why haven't you said anything to me about it?
The reason these things are troubling to me is because it feels like you are spouting off town rhetoric yet not holding yourself to it. AKA faking it.
Why do I have to be unaligned with KJ and Tordeck?
@Everyone
RE:Tordeck
So, I kind of think he just has to be town considering how blatantly anti-town he is being. Unless he is gambiting really hard that that's what everyone will think and trying to WIFOM it.
Am I crazy here? Can everyone chime in on your thoughts about his response to me? Also, did his post that I questioned actually make sense to anyone and are my questions just ridiculous? I am so confused about what is going on there.
So, I had to read his post a few times before getting the gist of it. I will agree it's not phrased in an exactly clear manner. I've bolded the relevant parts below:
The reason it's unclear what he's talking about in the second bold part, is because in between he rambles over to have a convo with me. In other words:
Point #1
Unrelated thought
Point #2 referencing Point #1
Now, I can see both sides here. It wasn't clear. But it wasn't impossible to figure out either. So I can get #176. What I can't quite get is the vitriol expressed in #181. Don't just take your ball and go home because somebody doesn't understand you, clarify until they do.
So that makes part of my questions irrelevant, but the rest of what I asked is still relevant. To revise:
@Tordeck - Now that I get what you were saying, how about you oblige me and answer the rest of the questions.
You explain how you read Proph as scum and Hunger as town, but not how you always think I am scum.
Catching up on the rest of the game. Life is hectic.
How does it not? It should have been obvious that I was suspecting Shinen, and after jd proved himself to be town I was going to vote him.
You got me on this one. I forgot that I wasn't voting Shinen.
Vote: Shinen
Sadly, I wasn't keeping track of this one as well. I genuinely missed the fact that you haven't voted yet.
Alright then - if you think I'm scum, you should definitely be voting me. Why do you use your vote sparingly, and why are you not using it to pressure people who you think are scum (like me)?
If you think that, then by all means. It looks to me that you're scumreading me based on me missing certain stuff, like the fact that I didn't revote for Shinen or didn't keep track of your vote. Tordeck's post is unnecessarily hostile to you, and he blatantly refused to answer a question which I have a very difficult time seeing coming from scumbuddies. With killjoy, it's because you were agreeing/buddying to him after his reads post, which is something scum never do to each other.
I agree that people are likely to be scum when they create pairs, but I'm doing something entirely different.
I'm creating /unaligned/ pairs - they are useful for me because when one of the paired people flips scum, I'll immediately townclear the other one. It lets me gain two alignment "flips" for the price of one.
Lets see in order.
It was ,my 4th post of the game, when exactly would have been a good time to address it? In the middle of dealing with Mindreaver?
Correct me if I am misremebering the role but a PGO kills anyone that targets him. The town play is to play just townie enough to get the scum to target him but not townie enough that any protective role would try to do so.
I guess he didnt clearly come out and state it, its not hard to read between the lines though.
His bad play with the scum pile basically negates the whole list's value so there for is all bad.
To answer that would get me a flame warning.
The Family
Remember the way I claimed the role in the Dies to Removal game we played a few months ago Tordeck? Doesn't it feel pretty similar here to Proph's claim? Townies don't tend to think about lying about the role. Granted I was under significant pressure, but here Proph claimed immediately, so there is that rather large difference.
The GJ way path to no lynching: