MTG Salvation

The example that sticks out is you having a problem with me discussing my town history when discussing GJ. Look at the facts: only I have access to the things I think make GJ look good in private. I have no way of showing that to the people in this thread. I conceded that if you think I am scum you are free to move along, and spoke directly to the people who believe I am being genuine and town by appealing to my success rate in these situations before. You believe that I am talking about myself for the sake of it, when it should be obvious I talk about myself as that is the best way to sell my belief that GJ is town. There are really no other avenues that are sound. But you dismiss it without thinking about it, seemingly, critically. That's concerning.

Sidenote: I've had a radical idea proposed to me and I will be following up on it tomorrow. I will likely be able to do *some* catchup tomorrow but not as much as originally planned.

Chris, talk to me. I think you're scum but I don't think you're so bad as scum that you'd waste your vote on someone obviously town for strictly role-related reasons after talked out of it.

So, Vaimes: Yeah, his play's been pretty uninspiring through most of the game. Until his claim, I was going to come into toDay questioning and probably voting him. But look at it from a mechanical perspective.

Vaimes's role can not exist on scum in this game. Here's why:

The votes.

The lynch is a town's only consistent (and inarguably, most powerful) weapon. Not only does it provide bundles of information, it almost always guarantees a flip, a body, and brings the game one step closer to being solved.

By nature of this game's mechanics, the lynch is weakened significantly.

Assuming this game has 4-5 scum, they effectively control at least 1 jury slot all game long (assuming a consistent scum-to-town ratio as the game progresses). While this isn't necessarily as strong earlier in the game, when the game comes down to 2 or even 1 juror, the scum absolutely have the say in who's going up. This means that they either have to put one of their own on jury (which is a strong move, as it protects that player from a lynch that Day, as well as gives them a say in who gets lynched), or they can put someone on the jury for strategic reasons, such as jury rigging towards a player they want to get lynched, or even to disconnect a voice from the main thread of the game for a Day. These are all colossal powers in the hands of the scum.

Continuing on with the supposition that the scum have at least some say in the jury, there's also the consideration to make that they have more say in who gets lynched - not just because of the jury, but because of the multiple candidates that can get sent to trial. This is also very strong for the scum, because it dilutes the pool. Sure, you might have a scum player get sent to trial - but not only does the town have ultimately less influence in the trial as a result of jury rigging, they also have less of a choice in who gets lynched, because the original person the town voted to get lynched (i.e. the first defendant) isn't necessarily the one that's going to get arrested.

So, how does this tie in to the nature of Vaimes's ability? That's easy.

The scum already effectively have control over 50% (roughly) of the lynch based on the above numbers, if not even more than that. This means that giving them any additional killing power - because what's to stop Vaimes from gifting a buddy if he's scum? - is absolutely bat***** insane overpowered bonkers, and would never pass review.

In short, anybody who thinks Vaimes is scum needs to do some serious number-crunching to convince me otherwise.

I seriously don't know why life is treating me like this, but now I'm suffering from a slipped disc in my neck that presses against a nerf and causes pain in my whole left neck, shoulder, arm and hand.
While at the same time I cannot stop working because I'm a freelancer and not working means no income

If there's anything I need to address, please repost or link and I'll do so.

Sure, while you're here, please weigh in on Wheat v. Iso v. Chris v. Vaimes.

Also...where is everyone?

Quote from Iso »

Sure, while you're here, please weigh in on Wheat v. Iso v. Chris v. Vaimes.

I don't understand Chris's Vaimes vote. As you said, he can't be scum handing out vigshots. Chris is wasting his energy there.
I just read Chris's big post, and something weird struck me: he seems to have missed that Tom died. Which probably makes him unaligned with DV: I can't imagine the second kill, if it was in scum hands, being used on tom without discussing it in scumchat first.
Chris's Vaimes vote and then discussion about tom makes me think he's not paying attention to the game. Is that a tell for Chris?

On you I still don't have a solid read (and probably never will because Iso. I think the only time I read you correctly was dr polyopticon where I knew you were some kind of guild leader), but I came to the same conclusion on Chris's Vaimes vote, so there's that.

Wheat is town but not sure about DV. Do we actually send DV to court if we vote Wheat now?

Vaimes is town because of his role.

I don't understand Chris's Vaimes vote. As you said, he can't be scum handing out vigshots. Chris is wasting his energy there.

...

Maybe I am going senile, but didn't Stargate just have this scum role?

No, because Nacho's ability handed out FAKE inventions. None of them actually worked. And we just saw D_V shoot tom.

...actually, I think I somehow missed tom dying, too, since I responded to his jury QT thing, haha.

Anyway, if you're going to ***** on my theory about why this role can't exist on scum in this game, please provide the legwork to back it up.

Also I didn't miss Tom dying, why does everyone keep saying that. I had a list of dead people in my post and Tom was on it.

Also I guess I am going senile. Although let's chat about theory: why can't scum hand out vig shots if it is restricted to town only? Serious question. Of course handing themselves vig shots is broken but real inventors handing town real inventions is something I am familiar with. Has this never been done here?

Inventors have been a thing here, yes. Scum inventors are something that we don't see often, but they do pop up from time to time. As far as a scum inventor that can only target town...I dunno, that seems like a terribly inelegant role, and like you're trying to jam the square block in the circle hole. You are supposing that Vaimes is specifically a scum inventor that only hands out Vig shots and that he can only target town with it. Aside from the ludicrousness and design incompetence of such a role, why would the scum ever even risk using that ability by handing someone a Vig shot?

You're really reaching here, Chris.

Iso to be fair I think this may be the 4th time I have said "I don't really care about role meta" I could make a chart with how little I care. Also my vote was purely in reaction to Vaimes' behavior. I am a behavior voter. It may not be one of my final votes but I don't like Vaimes' behavior.

I will be honest. I took none of this into account when voting for him. I just didn't like what he had said and done. But it isn't as if scum inventor would blow my mind.

This isn't about role meta so much as it's about role elegance/setup balance. Why are you misrepresenting my argument?

Okay I wasn't even trying to misrepresent anything, that's just what I call it. I don't care about role/elegance/setup balance discussion over behavior in a vacuum. I outright stated I am re-reading things, getting new perspective. I may end up agreeing with you that Vaimes is just wacky town, but I am not going to let a claimed role that could still be scum by my estimation influence me to the degree that I take him off the table.

And I think you're being willfully dense on the matter.

You're right, the hallmark of my scum game is to come off as dense and stubborn, rather than to mimic my town game by bussing buddies and appearing to be my usual clever self.

So, I want a full report on votes, pretty please. I voted Anak, so at least that seemed to work, and had notification, at the start of night when Proph confirmed megs got my questions. I feel determined about today, and it will be so awesome!

Quote from Vaimes »

I'm assuming the full question is "why did you give DV a vigshot?"

Probably because I was townreading him at the time.

Is there a reason you didn't target anyone night 1, or did I miss this?

Quote from Cyan »

I hate this entire line of attack from GJ.

I am sorry that you feel this way. I wish I could say I am surprised, but that would be a bit silly on my end, so I will just echo DV's question of why not Rhand as well?

Quote from Rhand »

And I've said this before: GJ's role is perfect for scum to have because it activates during Day, freeing him up to do something else at Night.

That has got to be a joke. So I have two abilities now?

Quote from dota »

@GJ: What was your reasoning for the questions you asked? What were you hoping to learn?

Well, the first question kind of get miffed. Because of the way my ability works, I have to ask them before I see the flip (hence, the if mato flips scum part of it).

The second question, I was trying to get a more concentrated line megs reads, and see if he would slip up there. Since Chris had an ability simliar to his from Stargate, I was curious if megs would try to follow the Chris/GJ scum train, and I could catch him there.

Quote from WG »

Lynching necarg was a really stupid decision because he obviously had no malicious intent

Decision was fine.

also what the **** johnny is still alive

Well, you know what they say, Joseph: third times the charm.

Quote from Iso »

So even though I'm townreading GJ to death for a myriad of reasons, I have accepted the fact that he will likely be on trial again and only implore you guys to also put Chris up there with him.

This is such weaksauce, and I am having such a hard time following you on this. Stop making me question my town read on you.

Quote from WG »

God GJ is so scum

Please sir, I must implore you to either make a case, or stop this. Make a real case, and you might get the support you need to put me away! I have faith in you Wheat!

As I consider it a bit more, I'm not convince one way or another. GJ is playing very strangely. It's like he's doing drunken style martial arts.

Every game is different, young one. Each game requires a mask, and each mask is viewed differently. I think you are playing weird yourself, but we each have our own path to follow. It is a shame that you followed this path.

Speaking of, your wagon took off after I was arrested. I admit I would have likely kept pushing, but since I couldn't, do you recall the tempo/bad people on your wagon?

Hm, I thought of something intruiging:

Vaimes:

1). Do you have to declare your target during the day? If no, can your target fire immediately that same night?

2). Can your shots be used against you?

@GJ: yes. The journalist thing and the NK.

There are plenty of games where scum players that can nk and use their ability anyway. Having a day ability to allow me to do something at night is a ridiculous justification.

Sorry, Chris, but I don't really consider "I think Sir Chris is scum" to be a behavior. If this is you not liking how I play mafia, shrug. I don't like how plenty of people in this game play, but I choose not to ***** about it itt. Usually.

Quote from "Gentleman Johnny »

Vaimes:

1). Do you have to declare your target during the day? If no, can your target fire immediately that same night?

2). Can your shots be used against you?

It's a Night action; the vigshot cannot be used until the following Night. I targeted DV Night 1. My Night 2 target will probably claim toMorrow.

I'd rather not die at all, much less by my own ability, but yes.

Quote from Sir Chris »

You're right, the hallmark of my scum game is to come off as dense and stubborn, rather than to mimic my town game by bussing buddies and appearing to be my usual clever self.

>implying your town game isn't dense and stubborn

Well it isn't about like as in 'I disapprove' moreso than 'I am utterly confused.' Like Vaimes you appear to be an intelligent enough guy, but you make statements that bewilder me and make it unclear what your train of thought is. I tend to find that comes from scum.

Also my town game is many things, but dense is for sure not one of them.

@SC: I don't think that you can make much of a claim that your scum game is to aggressively bus your buddies. This didn't happen in Stargate, nor the Invitational. In Wu Tang, you and Generic spent alot of time bickering, as scum buddies, but you didn't REALLY try to get him lynched that I remember.

I wouldn't say that SC is *ever* dense, though. Stubborn..sure. But if that was a scum tell, most of us would get mislynched regularly. This all feels really pointless though. The deadlines in this game don't give us time to have these petty squabbles.

Iso is starting to feel more like scum to me. The way that he basically told us to send GJ to trial again, even though he also tells us that he disapproves of that wagon, rubs me the wrong way. Immensely.

Quote from GJ »

I am sorry that you feel this way. I wish I could say I am surprised, but that would be a bit silly on my end, so I will just echo DV's question of why not Rhand as well?

You mean..the same Rhand that I am currently voting for?

Quote from Sir Chris »

Well it isn't about like as in 'I disapprove' moreso than 'I am utterly confused.' Like Vaimes you appear to be an intelligent enough guy, but you make statements that bewilder me and make it unclear what your train of thought is. I tend to find that comes from scum.

Also my town game is many things, but dense is for sure not one of them.

You're never going to get into my head with posts like "I don't care about what you say."

Why does it feel like more than half of the players aren't even around? :/

I'm sorry everyone. I will be unexpectedly V/LA until Thursday or Friday. My laptop had an unfortunate run in with Windows 10...

That's what I said!

-

@Cyan: I didn't say "hay guise send GJ to trial", I said "it sucks that you guys are probably sending GJ to trial, but please also send Chris when you do".

hey

so I got two abilities last Night.

one lets me target a player to negate 2 jury votes on them

the other lets me target a player to see if they received any votes for jury that Night.

I voted Citric for Jury. I figured he'd be the least likely from my pool to actually get votes.

Though, did anybody vote for Hunt?

@vaimes if you knew that your ability could be used for the "silent CC" as it were, why counterclaim and vote Matowar to jury Yesterday? I get that you had to trust DV to shoot true, but even if he shot somebody else we'd still have it as an actual CC without revealing yourself.

hello wheat

I'll read the rest and post more in a bit or tomorrow morning. I've had a busy past couple of days!

Quote from Iso »

That's what I said!

-

@Cyan: I didn't say "hay guise send GJ to trial", I said "it sucks that you guys are probably sending GJ to trial, but please also send Chris when you do".

Come on now, we all understand how context and subtext work. And it's not like you have a hard time saying what you mean. If you didn't really want us to send GJ to trial, that's exactly what you would have said. Plus like..don't you have any OTHER scum reads? What happened to all of your vaunted 'you have to look for connections and whole teams' speeches from before?

It's like you haven't read a single thing I've said all Day.

hey Iso why is DV scum

PoE + shooting TS + Jury 2 chat + tom is dead

I'm sure there are other reasons, those are just the 4 that immediately jumped to mind

you think TCM is town right?

Quote from "Megiddo" »

@vaimes if you knew that your ability could be used for the "silent CC" as it were, why counterclaim and vote Matowar to jury Yesterday? I get that you had to trust DV to shoot true, but even if he shot somebody else we'd still have it as an actual CC without revealing yourself.

uh

I...didn't really think about the action itself being considered a CC. :I

Quote from Vaimes »

Quote from "Megiddo" »

@vaimes if you knew that your ability could be used for the "silent CC" as it were, why counterclaim and vote Matowar to jury Yesterday? I get that you had to trust DV to shoot true, but even if he shot somebody else we'd still have it as an actual CC without revealing yourself.

uh

I...didn't really think about the action itself being considered a CC. :I

lol

Quote from Megiddo »

you think TCM is town right?

yes

Quote from Vaimes »

Quote from "Megiddo" »

@vaimes if you knew that your ability could be used for the "silent CC" as it were, why counterclaim and vote Matowar to jury Yesterday? I get that you had to trust DV to shoot true, but even if he shot somebody else we'd still have it as an actual CC without revealing yourself.

uh

I...didn't really think about the action itself being considered a CC. :I

Even though you asked about the odds of multiple Vig roles existing in the game? -_o

so iso my question is why would scum DV go hard on town matowar in the Trial Yesterday and then swap to town TCM?

what is the scum motivation for this?

I wish I had asked him before he poofed on us but I'd like to know your thoughts.

I'm not sure I understand the question. How is one thing relevant to the other, here?

Quote from Iso »

I'm not sure I understand the question. How is one thing relevant to the other, here?

why would DV as scum not just stay on matowar?

Quote from Gentleman Johnny »

Quote from Cyan »

I'm perfectly willing to go to Trial with you, just like I was yesterday. You probably have some shenanigan ability that is going to kill me during trial, but as always, I'll trade my life for a dead scum. And I definitely love the idea of your scumbuddy Mato going into Trial with us.

So, if this is what it takes for you to get to Trial and get lynched, then okay.

*shrugs* works for me.

I legitimately can't believe you think I do all this as scum. But, whatever.

Caught for wrong reasons

I don't think Huntz believes his 1319

Quote from Iso »

@DoT: I targeted Wheat. Who, as you can clearly see, is not an ascetic.

What the ****, why????

Actually I misread that, I thought you were saying you voted me for jury.

Have you claimed your ability yet?

Chris gives me jibblies whenever he speaks.

Huntz' backpedal looks bad but I don't think he would actually admit that as scum. I just don't.

My decision to trust Cyan was completely correct because at every turn he is saying exactly what I'm thinking.

Quote from Gentleman Johnny »

Did I just wander into a McDonalds, because I'm lovin this.

this is not gj

that's page 27

oh, hey wheat, who did you vote for jury N1?

Hm hm hm. Perhaps I am letting myself be distracted by silly things.

Megiddo, what is your current stance on me?

at the risk of getting seriously burned later I think you are town.

I really, really cannot see anybody deliberately choosing to piss off the entirety of the game as scum. strategically this just makes no sense to me. I said in the jury chat that I think scum you would be content to just let the game continue down its path (and, you know, prod us in the direction you want us to go) rather than try to whip people into shape right at that moment.

@WG: ISo's ability(verified because he targeted me successfully last night) is that he can target a person to either lock or unlock one of their abilities. He targeted me w/ the unlock.

See, what weirds me out is that you seem to be the only person outside of GJ and maybe D_V that's really vibing that way. You are correct, but I am forced to wonder if you are correct because of insight or because you have no other choice but to be correct due to information on hand.

I mean... let's face it. I am a pretty good scum player to the point that a lot of good players respect and look out for it. And I've just got done being scum 3 games in a row so my natural tendencies that are neutral are easily misrepped as scum by an average person who doesn't think too hard. Yet you seem to be able to avoid that trap.

It's tough. Mafia, I mean. It's really tough to try go after someone like you if you are scum. You've been reasonable, mild mannered, and haven't really done anything grossly wrong. You've been fairly active and thoughtful as well.