@GJ: The lesson I learned from Mafia Classic is to be okay with sometimes being wrong. While I was wrong about EtR that game, relying on my "ride or die" lists made it easier for me to narrow down the field; second-guessing myself in constant fear of losing the game I feel would have been more detrimental to my ability to scum hunt, not less. In the past, paranoia has been my kryptonite. If you are pulling the wool over my eyes, then I will salute you at the end of the game, because you deserve to win. I'd rather be comfortable with that than try to recklessly run you up now out of self-doubt.
Confirmed roles:
1-shot Innocent Child (Immune to lynch)
1-shot Bodyguard (Redirects a NK)
1-shot Vengeful Town (Can possibly steal a win in LyLo if mislynched)
Vanilla
Vanilla
Vanilla
Does it seem overpowered to also have a backup should town lose one of these roles early on considering there is only 1 scum?
@GJ Where did you get the thought that I wasn't at all considering you for scum? What I said was that I disliked Xyre more, but I didn't call him confirmed scum in my eyes or anything as concrete as that. I favor him for scum but that in no way means I'm not still considering the possibility that you could be too.
Not sure I would say that I came in to this day with weakness, more that I was very torn. In Trackers, I really was very weak in how I started the day knowing that I had a confirmed scum. Today, I had a confirmed town, which I let everyone know immediately, then had to try and pick between two players that I thought were pretty likely town as scum. Indecision would be accurate, but not weakness.
You may say that I am arguing semantics, but my larger point is that I needed to consider more before going after someone in this case. After Xyre's voting me post, I think he is the better course of action. Now is the time for offense, having found the direction I want to pursue.
In general, I tend to be a more passive person. Observing and pointing things out is very natural for me, but casing someone and pushing them if I believe them to be scum is harder for me, on a personality level. So when I try to do that, I'm more awkward about it and sort of flounder around. That passivity has its benefits, being less committal I tend to live longer in games, but it usually raises peoples suspicions as the game goes on and there are only so few people remaining. In games without a claim to save me, I get lynched late. You all probably don't care, which is totally fair, but I want to throw it out there.
Posting tonight will be sporadic, will do what I can
In response to me confirming DotA: In both of your cases, you aren't wrong in that if DotA claims that he used his ability on me, and I say he didn't, the last scum is one of us and I am the most likely target. But confirming DotA removes that possibility, and it leaves me vs. Xyre/GJ.
You still are ignoring the fact that 1). You don't know where Dota will land. He targeted you for a reason, meaning he might have been reading one of me, Xyre, or Grim as scummier. 2). DV dying would make some of our re-reads possibly change. You also even admit that the scum in your case would still confirm dota, rather than WIFOM it out between himself and Dota, so I really don't know what you are trying to argue.
No, I said that if I was scum then I would have created a WIFOM-fest as scum, if I implied something else my apologies. DV dying could have made some of your reads change, which is another reason that I would have held out from confirming DotA as scum. What I am trying to argue is that by coming out and confirming him to start the day, I significantly increase my chance to get lynched, and as such why would I do that as scum? Especially because I made it clear that I did not believe his claim yesterday, it felt the most appropriate to me to come out with that information right away.
@DotA At that point (post 95) D_V was scummier for the whole voting without voting thing, but then Bur became worse with the whole not defending himself at all defense. As evidenced by the list you show, where Bur is below DV again. Pushing DV further never really got a chance because of the deadline and everyone's attention shifting to Bur, seemed more worthwhile to investigate that further than try to distract from that considering the time crunch.
As to the setup speculation, that thought struck me as well. I'm no setup master, but 4 town PR's against (most likely) one SK is really unbalanced to me, even if they aren't the strongest PR's. This further's my belief that Xyre is the hiding scum, as his claimed role has no way to be verified right now.
@GJ Where did you get the thought that I wasn't at all considering you for scum? What I said was that I disliked Xyre more, but I didn't call him confirmed scum in my eyes or anything as concrete as that. I favor him for scum but that in no way means I'm not still considering the possibility that you could be too.
Your response to me saying basically: "I am lynching you if the day were to end now" you immediately went defense. Town don't play defense like that against people they think are scum. Even a more passive player would at least try to ask me a question, or gather more information.
Quote from Anak »
If I was scum, why would I confirm DotA? I would have disputed his claim of his ability and threw WIFOM all over the place. What do I gain from confirming him as scum?
Quote from Anak »
In both of your cases, you aren't wrong in that if DotA claims that he used his ability on me, and I say he didn't, the last scum is one of us and I am the most likely target.
You are the most likely target by your own words if you create the dichotomy. I could potentially turn on Xyre or Xyre could potentially turn on me, or you die either way. The scum play would be to make it a 3-way, rather than a 2-way if either case likely ends with you dead. So when you say:
No, I said that if I was scum then I would have created a WIFOM-fest as scum, if I implied something else my apologies
That, would be suicide, as you acknowledged both me and Xyre likely still vote you in either stance.
As far as Xyre claiming a PR when we have three, all three PRs are relatively weak: 1-shot neighbor, 1-shot bodyguard, and a vengeful townie? None of those are superstrong, and don't actually narrow down. I could believe a back-up exists, and even if I didn't, Xyre would have thought the same thing. There is no way he thought claiming a PR gives him any protection today. If nothing else, it makes him look more suspicious.
Confirmed roles:
1-shot Innocent Child (Immune to lynch)
1-shot Bodyguard (Redirects a NK)
1-shot Vengeful Town (Can possibly steal a win in LyLo if mislynched)
Vanilla
Vanilla
Vanilla
Does it seem overpowered to also have a backup should town lose one of these roles early on considering there is only 1 scum?
Nope, since each of those roles is basically a french vanilla. Sure, a vengeful townie could net a second lynch... after a townie's already been mislynched. Sure, the bodyguard could block a kill, but if it's with his face, and only those particular roles, what does that eke out?
Really, any unfairness in this setup toward the scum seems to lie in the numbers, not the individual powers.
You may say that I am arguing semantics, but my larger point is that I needed to consider more before going after someone in this case. After Xyre's voting me post, I think he is the better course of action. Now is the time for offense, having found the direction I want to pursue.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Anak actually is voting for me? Which makes this feel even more part and parcel with his behavior all game, i.e. expressing a tacit opinion and waiting for someone to turn his words into actions. And his case on me seems to boil down to "he's voting for me"? And he still isn't willing to disclaim GJ as scum?
I can buy someone being a passive player. But there's passive play by townies (checking and double checking) and there's passive play by scum (waiting out the clock, pushing wagons clandestinely, and equivocating). This is the latter.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Gah, I just don't know what to do at this point. We have a few more days before the deadline, let me at least use that time to attempt to try to convince you otherwise.
In a game with numbers that already favor the town, giving them a 4th PR seems excessive, even when they aren't the strongest PR's. It actually makes more sense to me that there would be 2 PR's than 4 considering the numbers advantage.
@Xyre Well I'm nothing if not consistent, which doesn't mean a whole lot at this point. But why are scum the only ones capable of pushing wagons poorly, or wanting to use all the time in a day to discuss?
@GJ I became more defensive because of the fact that I know that if I die, we lose. Kind of like playing really safe to preserve a lead in a game, except for the whole I would be losing in this case. My gut reaction was to try and prevent me from dying and losing, then going from there. Also Xyre claiming that role makes him more suspicious, but is that actually raising suspicion from you, or is it the "scum wouldn't draw that suspicion willingly, so he's town" suspicion?
Also notice how Xyre has more than once saluted you and said that you have played so well? He's doing that to avoid drawing suspicion from you at this point, knowing that your vote is required to lynch him. All he has to do is keep you happy, and convince DotA to vote me, and boom. What better way to do that? He is pushing me because I am the easiest mis-lynch, and is waving any detraction by saying he would rather lose than change. How does a townie not consider the other possibilties at this point of the game (even if that other possibility is you GJ)?
I'm not flattering GJ. I've been consistent from Day 1 that I believe he's town because he's playing exactly in his townie wheelhouse. I'm saluting him only because if he's still scum, it's so unbelievable that it's not even a possibility worth considering - like... hmm, what's a good metaphor. Like a perfectly played inside straight off the flop. (Think 458 mixed flop.) You just have to shake it off. The only possibility in the realm of the probable I can see is you're the last scum.
I'm not flattering GJ. I've been consistent from Day 1 that I believe he's town because he's playing exactly in his townie wheelhouse. I'm saluting him only because if he's still scum, it's so unbelievable that it's not even a possibility worth considering - like... hmm, what's a good metaphor. Like a perfectly played inside straight off the flop. (Think 458 mixed flop.) You just have to shake it off. The only possibility in the realm of the probable I can see is you're the last scum.
Nope. (And while I understand poker theory very well, I can't say I'm good at it, because I get bored easily and thus have a hard time with the marathon that is a poker table.)
There's only one person in this game I believe I've played with before, so Vote Xyre.
I was trying to remember where I knew you from! Then I remembered Project Mayhem, and high school, and promptly went back to drinking my memories away.
First post is essentially RVS, some friendly banter with GC. Null.
A shame. But I suppose everyone can't agree with my philosophies. Do be wary as "only Siths deal in absolutes".
Search your feelings; you know it to be true [that no-lynch Day 1 is a bad idea].
Its generally a bad idea yes, but why not talk about how it would apply to this game? I would expect town!Xyre to describe why its a bad idea, especially considering we are uncertain about the number of scum. Instead he just says its a bad idea, for what appears to be to get the town to move on from the idea. Slightly scum.
Like I said, I didn't care what was the result. What I care is people's reactions and opinions about the matter. Why do they want to claim? Why do they not want to claim? Are their reasoning solid? Would town think like this? Would scum think like this?
Except you just described the game of mafia itself. We're asking why you want that action and why that action facilitates catching scum. All you're saying is, "this might work". That doesn't fill me with confidence!
Its hard to gauge a ton from this reaction, as Bur was being not-forthcoming about his reasoning, and Xyre's question is one that I would expect from either side. What is concerning is that he expresses doubts about Bur's intentions, without stating how that make's him feel about Burs alignment, like he is waiting for others to chime in before he starts calling Bur scum. As town, I would expect Xyre to start pushing Bur on this point instead of lingering around and waiting. Slightly scum.
I asked flavour claim since I wanted to a discussion about something relevant and not baseless speculation about the set-up. Flavour claim is a good way to generate discussion.
Discussion leads to interactions, interactions reveal things (especially after some flips).
Want more accurate description?
Okay, I think you might just not have a good answer.
Vote Bur
Let's hash this out in very simple terms: all posts count as "discussion", because all posts theoretically carry with them the possibility that someone will say something incriminating. Obviously some posts are better than others in that regard, but that interest is balanced against talking about subjects that are dangerous to talk about. For example, asking players to mass-claim at the beginning of a game is probably the most likely discussion to turn up useful information, but people don't do it because the cost (of revealing power roles and triggering any special safeguards baked into the setup by the mod) is far higher than the information is worth.
What you're asking is that we have a conversation about a topic adjacent to that realm of danger. What I'm asking you is why we should reveal information that could potentially benefit the scum more than the conversation about that information is worth (because, again, Iso's not stupid, and especially with a theme this specific I'm sure there's some correlation between roles and flavor).
What you've instead told me, again, is the tautological "discussion is good, so let's have discussion about X". Which is, again, not an answer to my question, which is why we should discuss flavor, potentially revealing important secret information, over literally any other topic, including this one?
What bothers me, though, isn't the fishing itself - townies do that all the time, for good reasons and bad - but your unwillingness to explain why this matters. That to me suggests a scum worried about being judged for saying "I was wrong".
Actually your jUst special, and your making me feel better about your self.
Bur and Xyre ate on my short list right now.
@Xyre: you hosted the last macro. What do you think of this game's Bur versus in your game?
No idea. I usually don't actually read carefully through the games I host while they're happening. It's too much more information to cram into my brain on top of scrutinizing posts for moderatable things. I'm going to go reread it now.
Oh, there it is. Xyre now jumps onto Bur, once he has seen that others are pushing back against Bur. He was already critical of Bur, why did he wait for others to chime in? It's because he didn't want to be pushing back against someone that came up with a claim that everyone else supported. The odd part of this vote is that only one sentence explains why he specifically thinks Bur is scum, and instead is mostly just pointing out what Bur was saying. And his reason for Bur being scum, not wanting to be wrong, is just as likely to come from town!Bur. Its not like town want to be wrong about the discussions they have and claims/theories they make. It's as though Xyre sees the negative reactions towards Bur, and wants to get on the wagon early to hide from the eventual town flip, but can't find any real reason to vote (hence, one sentence on why Bur is scum, and many more on just general observation). Scummy.
Okay, so time to spill the beans. The reason why I was hounding the information about reason behind N0 targets was to figure out people's mindsets (and thought process behind that). It's as simple as that.
Yep, it's scum Bur.
Now, knowing that he didn't really have much of a reason for his vote, he posts this meta argument against Bur. But this logic doesn't make much sense either, Bur got lynched as scum because of (almost) exactly that kind of posting, why would he do it again? Note that he doesn't explain WHY this makes Bur scum, he just says Bur is. Scummy.
Hey guys, remember that time when I said "Consider me voting GJ" without actually voting GJ in Drunk Trackers and nearly lost us the game because of it?
Just throwing that out there.
Was that supposed to be a really convoluted defense of DV?
I'm leaning closer to null on most of DV's posts than most of you - a lot of the case on him seems to be based on the nullity of what he says without asking whether that's because he's intentionally trying to say nothing or just because he doesn't realize he's saying nothing. (Though I do agree 68 makes no sense.) I'd rather wait and see with DV until he comes up with some opinions of his own.
I did do something about it - calling it a weak sauce. Want to defend your honor?
Questions me on a weird defense-that-wasn't-supposed to be, explains his mindset about DV, and wants more response about a post from Vaimes. Overall, slightly town for that.
But the kicker here is the "Still happy voting Bur." Why are you happy voting Bur? You explain more reasoning behind your read of DV above than you have in 3 posts about the person you are voting! Instead its just more, meh Bur's scum, but town would be explaining how all of the discussion that took place further reinforces Bur being scum. Scummy, as he is trying to push Bur's wagon along without sticking his neck out too far.
I don't think I did anything worth defending myself against, so no, not really.
I didn't know if you were just gonna toss that out there and be on your way or what.
Okay, let's cut past the ironical language and just say what I was trying to say, which is I think buddying is usually a mediocre scum tell.
How does that affect your read on Vaimes or GJ? Again Xyre states something is scummy, as opposed to why what that person did makes them scummy. Slightly scummy.
Oh, it was just Grimclaw. For some reason I thought Vaimes had asked me something.
Here's a semi-coherent hash of where I stand on everyone:
To reiterate the opinions I've already delivered, I think GJ is town and Bur is scum. I'd put them at the top and bottom of my totem pole respectively.
(If it weren't for the parallels with Drunken Tracker, I'd be weirded out by GJ's "oh I was just testing Vaimes with the crypto-buddying" thing. But weirdly GJ's "buddying" was so overt that I almost think he really did try to make it a test. It was a test anyone, town or scum, would pass effortlessly, but that doesn't diminish GJ's towniness in my eyes.)
I'm still in the middle on DV. He says weird things, but I think that's just because he's weird. I still want to hear what he has to say about non-Bur people.
I like Anaklusmos - 41 is basically the point I made about Bur, except I was trying to build up to it to give Bur the benefit of the doubt. I also like 58.
I disagree with Grimclaw about DV, but his reasoning is reasonable (75). Leaning town.
Something rubs me the wrong way about Vaimes. 69 feels like he knows more than he's letting on - why is self-hammering a risk, if there's no indication that there's a mafia in this game? An SK has no reason to surrender.* And the rehash of the case on DV in 84 feels a lot more laundry-list than Grimclaw's; it's what I think of when I think of experienced players barning (i.e. restating a preexisting case in such a way as to make the material look fresh, with little connection between the evidence and the positions, since the latter is predetermined - this is what I attacked GJ for in Mafia vs. Wolves). He's my #2 at the moment (knowing full I'm probably alone in thinking that).
* Caveat: an SK may give up in the face of overwhelming opposition if they think there's no point in prolonging their death. I did this as the semi-SK in Ataghan Mafia, for example, because a townie investigated me, I knew I wasn't going to win, and I wanted the town to beat the mafia. That doesn't appear to apply here.
Dota is Dota. I have a blind spot for him, as Mafia vs. Wolves demonstrated, but I still trust him. He sounds like he's trying. Also leaning town.
tl;dr my list at the moment looks like this:
Town
GJ
.
Grim
Anak
Dota
.
DV
.
Vaimes
.
Bur Scum
(spaces to denote categories, naturally)
A lot of this post remains consistent with what his thoughts have been so far, but again almost all of his reasonings are What reasons, not Why reasons. Particularly his reasonings for me, GC, and DotA (who he trusts but has barely posted to this point in the game?), he names posts and says he agrees or disagrees, but not any explanation of why. Something that town could do, sure, but this has been Xyre's MO this game, put forth reads that make it look like you are analyzing the game when he really isn't. Also, the caveat in that post really lets on that Xyre knows more than he is saying. The game is really unknown in terms of roles at this point, what about it makes you think that couldn't apply here? Surface reads and showing that you know more than you are letting on? Scum.
@GJ: Besides the no-lynch difference, I think you just plain care more than you did in Drunken Tracker or Mafia vs. Wolves. It feels like the things you say aren't a means to an end (i.e. getting townies killed), but the end in themselves. I know that's a lot of words to say not much of anything, but that's the best way I can explain it off the cuff.
When questioned, this is Xyre's reasoning for his top town-read of the game. He even admits not saying much of anything, it feels like he was called on his read and this was the best he could come up with to explain it. Slightly scummy.
Bodyguard deaths are the worst. It makes all interaction analysis of the bodyguard in the previous days discussion suspect. Though with the one-shot and it being night 1 I think I might just assume he didn't use it.
Well, then the question becomes, why would someone shoot him over anyone else? You and GJ are pretty much at the top of everyone's townie list. So I think he used it successfully, which is a point in the favor of one of you, not that that does us much.
Who was the top person after Bur and Vaimes on my scum list? DV? Ugh. That feels so unsatisfying. I also owe a reread.
So the person that he was 'pushing' and voting for most of D1 just flips town, not scum, and Bur is barely mentioned in this post. No "Wow, was I ever wrong there." but instead he just moves on as if he knew how Bur would flip, hoping to bring others with.
NOTE: GC posts this after in 164, "Xyre inspires paranoia in me. My gut is convinced he's scum, my mind can not figure out why. He's playing as I would expect a good experienced player to play regardless of their alignment: with concise but relevant posts. There is one post in particular (154) that makes my spider senses tingle, but that's about it." and later "The game has an SK as the only scum. In this case Xyre would be my choice for most likely cannibal." Remember this.
And Grimclaws on the scummier side of things to me
I don't think anyone agrees with you on that assessment. Mind to explain why?
Glosses over the fact that one of the more consensus townies of the group just called him scum, and questions DV (rightfully, but still). No response to the above?
@Xyre: is there anything specific about GJ that you DON'T like?
Mmmm... nope, nothing comes to mind. You and him in my mind are basically guaranteed town.
Well there is one reason you would think they are guaranteed town, you being scum. You're awfully trusting of reads that you started the day rather disliking, you no longer are questioning those reads at all at this point, even though you all lynched town? Odd.
I mean, this is Dota we're talking about. The guy who thought a roleblocker was a jailkeeper. Who knows how he formulates tactics?
That being said, unless we truly believe we're in LyLo, I say we lynch his presumed scum-buddy and let him use his ability tonight. If it works the way he says it does, it should be impossible to fake. The only reason I can see to lynch him is if (a) we believe we're in LyLo and yet (b) we can't decide on who his scum buddy should be.
I don't think we're in LyLo - I think the last scum, singular, is in Dota or DV. So I see nothing wrong with giving Dota a chance to rectify his mistake.
Now Xyre thinks that we have a single scum, not eeentirely sure how he got that conclusion from Dota's claim, but sure. No questioning or debating with GC about GC's point of Xyre being the only scum on a one-man team though, and from his perspective he can NK whoever Dota targets for at least a chance to render Dota's ability worthless (and set-up for the mislynch that would occur tomorrow if he hit).
I said this several times during Classic and I'll say it now again, I knew full well when I claimed JK that I was a roleblocker. I do agree with you that we're more than likely not in LyLo.
Okay, then to clarify: I don't think I'm capable of comprehending your choice of tactics based on how you deliberately attempted to pass a roleblocker off as a JK.
We can discuss the limitless bounds of my idiocy post game. For now, if D_V does actually flip town and I'm mod confirmed, who do you think it would be then?
*sigh*
Here's where we both get to claim falling back into old patterns, because again, by my nature I don't question my ride-or-die judgments, and as Mafia Classic proved with EtR, that can backfire. I really don't believe Anak could be scum. But yeah, if DV and you are both town, that's the best I can conceive of. If GJ or Grim is scum, I'll accept they've beaten me.
Not questioning ride-or-die judgments is another way of posting reads on people with minimal reasoning (avoiding potential contradictions etc.) Also, one of the people that you are willing to concede the game to (GJ) called you scum in the course of action you 'believe' is the truth, and you still don't respond to that.
The deadline is coming really close, Xyre can't afford a no lynch. Faking not knowing the deadline is the easiest way for him to pass off hammering a mis-lynch. I'm not debating the flight, life is life, more that he 'promised' a read, conveniently forgetting the deadline, and using that to vote DV.
DV dies, flips town. GC is NK'd, Xyre allegedly protected GJ
NOTE: Remember what I told you to remember? Hey look, the person stating that if there was one scum in the game would most likely be Xyre is now dead! Convenient that, considering we now know there is one scum. Xyre never acknowledged this point, and then killed GC to prevent him from pushing Xyre today as Xyre knew GC would.
Well, at least I'm glad to see my faith in Dota again affirmed.
GJ isn't scum, Dota isn't scum, so I guess it's down to this: Vote Anaklusmos
I'm off to do a reread on Anak, but in the meantime, I think it's time for a mass-claim.
I'll start it off in the spirit of fairness: I'm JUST DO IT Shia LeBeouf, Universal Backup. First time a townie with an ability is nightkilled, I get that ability. So upon Vaimes's death I became a 1-shot Bodyguard, and I used it on GJ last night on the theory that Dota might read GJ's "don't target me" as an attempt at reverse psychology.
Now Xyre knows he has to lynch me, so he is off to try and build a case on someone he was calling townie the whole game. Reversing course on GJ is suicide considering his ride-or-die read, and he knows that I am telling the truth on DotA.
I didn't vote DV at the time because I wanted to actually go back and prove my position on DV rather than backing into it because I felt so unhappy about it, but clearly I lost track of time.
Unlike our position now, where we have a confirmed-by-role and a confirmed-by-play player, it felt inappropriate to just say "process of elimination means lynch DV". Here, the math is far simpler, but I still intend to go back and do what I didn't for DV and actually analyze the game rather than react to it.
Read: I didn't want to vote someone that I knew would flip town without making it look like a legitimate vote. So instead Xyre waits until the deadline, knowing that people wouldn't go back and think twice on that hammer.
Next he posts his PBPA of me, a lot of what I did and me being an SK. But only a couple times does he even make mention of the fact that lots of things he thinks make me scum, he thought made me town previously. As if he is trying to avoid making this look like a near-complete about face of his stance on me.
@GJ: The lesson I learned from Mafia Classic is to be okay with sometimes being wrong. While I was wrong about EtR that game, relying on my "ride or die" lists made it easier for me to narrow down the field; second-guessing myself in constant fear of losing the game I feel would have been more detrimental to my ability to scum hunt, not less. In the past, paranoia has been my kryptonite. If you are pulling the wool over my eyes, then I will salute you at the end of the game, because you deserve to win. I'd rather be comfortable with that than try to recklessly run you up now out of self-doubt.
No comment on how he had to change a read on one of his ride-or-die lists, which I would think would give town!Xyre a bit of paranoia (it would me!).
Confirmed roles:
1-shot Innocent Child (Immune to lynch)
1-shot Bodyguard (Redirects a NK)
1-shot Vengeful Town (Can possibly steal a win in LyLo if mislynched)
Vanilla
Vanilla
Vanilla
Does it seem overpowered to also have a backup should town lose one of these roles early on considering there is only 1 scum?
Nope, since each of those roles is basically a french vanilla. Sure, a vengeful townie could net a second lynch... after a townie's already been mislynched. Sure, the bodyguard could block a kill, but if it's with his face, and only those particular roles, what does that eke out?
Really, any unfairness in this setup toward the scum seems to lie in the numbers, not the individual powers.
You may say that I am arguing semantics, but my larger point is that I needed to consider more before going after someone in this case. After Xyre's voting me post, I think he is the better course of action. Now is the time for offense, having found the direction I want to pursue.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Anak actually is voting for me? Which makes this feel even more part and parcel with his behavior all game, i.e. expressing a tacit opinion and waiting for someone to turn his words into actions. And his case on me seems to boil down to "he's voting for me"? And he still isn't willing to disclaim GJ as scum?
I can buy someone being a passive player. But there's passive play by townies (checking and double checking) and there's passive play by scum (waiting out the clock, pushing wagons clandestinely, and equivocating). This is the latter.
We have a deadline, and this is boarderline depressing. DO SOMETHING SOMEONE.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we're waiting for you to decide whom you're voting?
Look at his own methodology for passive play as scum? Reads as pretty familiar doesn't it? Waiting out the clock (DV's lynch), pushing wagons clandestinely (Bur's lynch), equivocating (ride-or-die lists for lynch).
I'm not flattering GJ. I've been consistent from Day 1 that I believe he's town because he's playing exactly in his townie wheelhouse. I'm saluting him only because if he's still scum, it's so unbelievable that it's not even a possibility worth considering - like... hmm, what's a good metaphor. Like a perfectly played inside straight off the flop. (Think 458 mixed flop.) You just have to shake it off. The only possibility in the realm of the probable I can see is you're the last scum.
You have been calling him town since D1, but never really explained well what part of GJ fit in his townie wheelhouse. Also, you never really questioned your read on him past the first day (based on how you state you avoid paranoia), so not sure how you rationalize that.
T(way way)L:DR Xyre has pushed both wagons from the background, and simply disregarded anyone calling him scum instead of questioning them and responding to it like town would. Particularly GC's claim of Xyre being the scum if there is only one, he never mentions that, and proceeds to NK GC before we move to the point where its confirmed to have 1 scum. He makes claims about having one read on people and sticking to that, but when he has to switch a read on someone (me on D3), he does so without an issue, so which is it? Its an inconsistent mentality that you are trying show as genuine, though I will say you have done it all well Xyre. But you are scum, and I hope this convinces you all of that.
- I didn't push DV; I expressed reservations about his wagon the entire day (his position on my town/scum list was consistently neutral, reflecting how inconsistent his behavior is) and only voted him because I got off an airplane with mere minutes left in the day and had to vote lest we unwittingly NL. Dota and GJ can vouch for how annoying it was to make that mistake in the last Iso game we played in, Mafia Classic. And you showed up right after me to essentially confirm you'd do the same thing.
- I didn't respond to GC because it wasn't directed at me, or for that matter at anyone; it was a musing apropos of nothing. And yet you think I'm so conscious of every comment about me that I'd perfectly coordinate my kills to eliminate my suspects? Anyway, if I were scum, wouldn't it make more sense to take out the player who I've consistently and unabashedly said is town? That widens the suspect pool, which creates more doubt. (This is all WIFOM each way, but that just makes this entire conspiracy theory worse - who knows who killed whom for what reason, or pretending to be someone else with a particular reason, etc.)
- I switched my read on you because (a) that read was largely based on cursory observations from the first hundred posts of the game, and (b) because process of elimination on Dota and GJ. How is that inconsistent? Are you suggesting that anyone who changes their mind and/or reconsiders past assumptions must have an agenda? Because that's all I'm getting from "an inconsistent mentality" (which, let's face it, is based on one observation alone, in which you're terribly self-interested).
And that's all ignoring the other point, which is this: I think you're accusing me primarily because I'm accusing you - maybe because you think I'm more vulnerable than GJ, maybe because you just want to sow doubt, I dunno.
Anyway, the PBPA itself:
Its generally a bad idea yes, but why not talk about how it would apply to this game? I would expect town!Xyre to describe why its a bad idea, especially considering we are uncertain about the number of scum. Instead he just says its a bad idea, for what appears to be to get the town to move on from the idea. Slightly scum.
Why on earth would the game benefit from a debate about philosophy? And GJ knows why I think no-lynch is a bad idea, hence his ready acceptance of my disagreement and the end of that conversation. You're spinning this.
Its hard to gauge a ton from this reaction, as Bur was being not-forthcoming about his reasoning, and Xyre's question is one that I would expect from either side. What is concerning is that he expresses doubts about Bur's intentions, without stating how that make's him feel about Burs alignment, like he is waiting for others to chime in before he starts calling Bur scum. As town, I would expect Xyre to start pushing Bur on this point instead of lingering around and waiting. Slightly scum.
I was giving Bur as much rope as he needed to hang himself. He was dodging around giving a real reason as to why he wanted a flavor claim, but townies can unwittingly omit rationales too. I wasn't going to accuse him until I was convinced it was truly a fishing expedition. And I'm still convinced what he was doing was a move primarily in the scum wheelhouse, and that I played all that correctly.
Oh, there it is. Xyre now jumps onto Bur, once he has seen that others are pushing back against Bur. He was already critical of Bur, why did he wait for others to chime in? It's because he didn't want to be pushing back against someone that came up with a claim that everyone else supported. The odd part of this vote is that only one sentence explains why he specifically thinks Bur is scum, and instead is mostly just pointing out what Bur was saying. And his reason for Bur being scum, not wanting to be wrong, is just as likely to come from town!Bur. Its not like town want to be wrong about the discussions they have and claims/theories they make. It's as though Xyre sees the negative reactions towards Bur, and wants to get on the wagon early to hide from the eventual town flip, but can't find any real reason to vote (hence, one sentence on why Bur is scum, and many more on just general observation). Scummy.
Bull. I gave him every chance he needed to explain himself. A simple "I think the scum don't have a safe claim and thus flavor-claims might catch a scum unawares" would have been perfectly sufficient, and also made a good deal of sense (even if I'd disagree that such a tactic was likely to work, since Iso's a careful designer). Instead, Bur hemmed and hawed, and the post you quoted was me throwing up my hands.
Your argument here boils down to correlation = causation - because other people were voting contemporaneously, I must have been hiding among them. Which is absolutely untrue, and misses the crux of my argument, which is "townies do X, scum do Y, Bur has been given every chance to do X and appears to be doing Y, ergo he's likely scum". That didn't come to me instantly, but after repeated scrutiny of him. Again, I stand by my pursuit of Bur.
Now, knowing that he didn't really have much of a reason for his vote, he posts this meta argument against Bur. But this logic doesn't make much sense either, Bur got lynched as scum because of (almost) exactly that kind of posting, why would he do it again? Note that he doesn't explain WHY this makes Bur scum, he just says Bur is. Scummy.
Meta arguments work because people don't change their stripes just by wishing things really bad.
And also, you're a hypocrite, because you barned me hard for just this similarity in #67. So which is it? Meta arguments are strong, or meta arguments are weak? I was right for finding Bur to be scummy based on his meta, or I was wrong? Or is it your opinion on meta arguments has shifted because you think hanging Bur's towniness on me can get you across the finish line?
I was wrong. I'm not going to deny that. I've been wrong playing the game of mafia far, far more than I've been right. But there's a difference between being wrong earnestly and being wrong maliciously. Your case on me for Day 1 is almost all based on deliberately blurring the lines between these two, essentially implying I must be scum because Bur was town. And all the while in denial about how valid that lynch was, and how much you supported it at the time.
Questions me on a weird defense-that-wasn't-supposed to be, explains his mindset about DV, and wants more response about a post from Vaimes. Overall, slightly town for that.
But the kicker here is the "Still happy voting Bur." Why are you happy voting Bur? You explain more reasoning behind your read of DV above than you have in 3 posts about the person you are voting! Instead its just more, meh Bur's scum, but town would be explaining how all of the discussion that took place further reinforces Bur being scum. Scummy, as he is trying to push Bur's wagon along without sticking his neck out too far.
Okay, now this is just ridiculous. I'm not pushing Bur's wagon at all with that post! I'm just reaffirming where I stand in relation to all the wagons, i.e. status quo. Nothing's changed, hence no comment. You have no basis at all for concluding this is scummy, because it isn't.
How does that affect your read on Vaimes or GJ? Again Xyre states something is scummy, as opposed to why what that person did makes them scummy. Slightly scummy.
I wasn't accusing Vaimes there, I was defending GJ. I think "buddying" is one of many buzzwords people throw around a lot because they assume it reflects scummy behavior. In practice, players often agree with people they agree with (which sounds like a tautology, but what I mean is if you find someone with whom you agree on a particular point, you often look at their other opinions more favorably). It's very hard to distinguish earnest positive feelings from an attempt at elaborate subterfuge-by-flattery. But usually, people don't even put in the effort, they just say "buddying". That's not to say that those people are scummy for saying it, they're just buying into a common misperception. All I wanted to make clear was GJ's purported buddying behavior wasn't suspicious (even before you consider that he was trying to lay an overly-elaborate semi-trap).
A lot of this post remains consistent with what his thoughts have been so far, but again almost all of his reasonings are What reasons, not Why reasons. Particularly his reasonings for me, GC, and DotA (who he trusts but has barely posted to this point in the game?), he names posts and says he agrees or disagrees, but not any explanation of why. Something that town could do, sure, but this has been Xyre's MO this game, put forth reads that make it look like you are analyzing the game when he really isn't. Also, the caveat in that post really lets on that Xyre knows more than he is saying. The game is really unknown in terms of roles at this point, what about it makes you think that couldn't apply here? Surface reads and showing that you know more than you are letting on? Scum.
Again conflating failing to do elaborate legwork with having something to hide. The post itself reflects its nature as a quick-and-dirty rundown to give people some sense of where I stand (which goes against your very point of trying to hide and play sneakily, because then why am I giving a firm list of scum reads, unprompted, and sticking to it up until the foundations crack in Day 3?), and I gave a number of firm points about why certain posts are suspicious, e.g. for Vaimes. Others I treat cursorily because my opinion of them is captured in other posts.
The only person for whom my read truly was spartan was you, it seems. So yeah, I admit it, I'm capable of having the wool pulled over my eyes by people who barn me. Sue me. I pointed out the actual flaws with your posts today, with clearer vision brought on by process of elimination.
Another subtle push of Bur's wagon, a no-lynch is really bad for him here so it makes sense, as scum.
After this, Bur dies and flips town, Vaimes is NK'd, and Xyre allegedly becomes a 1-shot Bodyguard.
Context is king. I was waiting for things worth talking about, and the thread was stagnating. And again, I was convinced Bur was scum. Of course I wanted him lynched, and wanted people to stop getting distracted so we could concentrate on lynching him.
So the person that he was 'pushing' and voting for most of D1 just flips town, not scum, and Bur is barely mentioned in this post. No "Wow, was I ever wrong there." but instead he just moves on as if he knew how Bur would flip, hoping to bring others with.
A, again, I'm wrong all the time. It doesn't raise my blood pressure, and it especially doesn't require a mea culpa. B, I think it's pretty obvious from my tone in that post that I've been affected by Bur flipping town inasmuch as I'm now not sure where to go, besides being unhappy with a default DV lynch.
Glosses over the fact that one of the more consensus townies of the group just called him scum, and questions DV (rightfully, but still). No response to the above?
He didn't call me scum, he conspiratorially muttered that I could be scum. Whoop-de-*******-do. Besides, if I called him out for that, I know right now you'd be going after me with the equally-preposterous "look how self-conscious Xyre is, going after anyone who even remotely suggests he's scum, he must have something to hide."
Well there is one reason you would think they are guaranteed town, you being scum. You're awfully trusting of reads that you started the day rather disliking, you no longer are questioning those reads at all at this point, even though you all lynched town? Odd.
I can't even follow this sentence. I assume you mean it's weird that I have strong opinions? If you'd played with me, you know I trust strong townie reads (as I call them, "ride or die") above anything. Only if it's me and a bunch of those reads left do I start considering the possibility I might be wrong. Otherwise, as I said to GJ, I'd be forever chasing the very type of paranoid "what if this strong player has got the drop on me" thinking Grim was engaged in. I'm not scum, and he trusted me. But he held me in enough esteem to know I'm the kind of person who could look like a townie even when scum. I feel the same things often about other strong players, and the only way I can keep my head on straight is to put the blinders on and put away my doubts until and unless it's required I do so. That's how I do.
Again, the only thing "odd" about it is what you're reading into it to obfuscate my meaning.
Now Xyre thinks that we have a single scum, not eeentirely sure how he got that conclusion from Dota's claim, but sure. No questioning or debating with GC about GC's point of Xyre being the only scum on a one-man team though, and from his perspective he can NK whoever Dota targets for at least a chance to render Dota's ability worthless (and set-up for the mislynch that would occur tomorrow if he hit).
I personally thought we had a single scum since the game began, based on the Actual Cannibal Shia LeBeouf hints. But I'm not arrogant enough to not entertain the possibility of two scum; I just believed Dota's claim and Dota's nature enough to think either (a) there's no danger in leaving him alive, because he's alone, or (b) if he's got a scum buddy, we can catch the scum buddy today and interrogate Dota tomorrow. I just believed there could have been better lynches. Of course, then I fell behind on my IRL responsibilities, shirked my in-game responsibilities, and had to panickedly vote for DV to salvage the day. That was my bad.
The deadline is coming really close, Xyre can't afford a no lynch. Faking not knowing the deadline is the easiest way for him to pass off hammering a mis-lynch. I'm not debating the flight, life is life, more that he 'promised' a read, conveniently forgetting the deadline, and using that to vote DV.
Bull*****. You and I both thought the deadline was a day later. My plan was to get off the flight and do my reread so we could proceed with a good lynch tomorrow. But no, me screwing up honestly isn't good enough for your case on me, so it has to be a grand scheme of convenient mistakes.
I protected GJ because knowing Dota, I assumed he might assume GJ was employing some reverse psychology and target him anyway. If Dota doesn't get confirmed today, life becomes much harder. But as I've said before and will say again and again, you have no basis for this theory I killed Grimclaw to protect myself from some convoluted "Xyre is fooling me" musing.
Skipping a few redundant/pointless things...
Read: I didn't want to vote someone that I knew would flip town without making it look like a legitimate vote. So instead Xyre waits until the deadline, knowing that people wouldn't go back and think twice on that hammer.
Next he posts his PBPA of me, a lot of what I did and me being an SK. But only a couple times does he even make mention of the fact that lots of things he thinks make me scum, he thought made me town previously. As if he is trying to avoid making this look like a near-complete about face of his stance on me.
Is this your way of getting out of, y'know, actually rebutting that PBPA? Claiming that I'm flip-flopping? Okay, you got me, my opinion changed. Again, sue me. Doesn't change the fact that I pointed out tangible, tactics-based reasons why your play is a scum's play. (Also, "lots of things" is a plain exaggeration - I gave you credit for like three posts in my original scum list, mostly because you agreed with me, and again, that was two game days and a lot of history prior.)
No comment on how he had to change a read on one of his ride-or-die lists, which I would think would give town!Xyre a bit of paranoia (it would me!).
No idea what you're talking about. I've been constant about GJ, Grim, and by and large Dota this game. Much as I was consistent about Dota, ETR, etc. from Mafia Classic. I was wrong in my conclusions, but I wasn't wrong in how I drew them, or in trusting them in the face of tempting paranoia.
tl;dr on the PBPA so I don't lose my work: The PBPA is much ado about nothing, dressed up with conspiratorial thinking. It all adds up to those scant points above, which really themselves boil down to (a) he doesn't like my methodologies (lack of clarity when I don't think it's required, ride-or-die tendencies), (b) he blames me for Bur's mislynch, and (c) he has this notion that I was deeply afraid of Grimclaw "catching" me. None of which is connected to scum behavior/motivation in any meaningful way.
And which doesn't address either my concrete PBPA points about him, or how self-serving all of this is, e.g. the fact that he barned me hard for the things I said about Bur which now he's calling strongly scummy, or that he's only discovered these scum tells now that his life is on the line.
I've read Anak's PBPA and Xyre's rebuttal and I'm still not convinced Xyre is scum. However, I've been wrong on every scum read I've had in the few games I've played so, GJ it's up to you. If you believe Anak is who we should lynch then drop the hammer. If you think we should be going after Xyre I'll vote with you but under protest.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Read pbpas, re-read game. I don't think I will ever be able to adapt the "ride or die" mentality. I do however recognize that Xyre has played really well this game, and I can follow his logic quite a bit. Anak really hasn't, and he has felt very low impact until the final day. I don't like how defensive he has been, almost as if he was just trying to endure questions and not die.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Why are you half-naked, performing interpretive dance with a 9-year old girl in a Sia music video? Go get a girlfriend your age. You have no abilities aside from your vote, and being a creeper.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Xyre quickly pulled out his fork and knife, impaling Gentleman Johnny through the neck with the knife. He then whirled around, taking his fork and jamming it through DoT's eye socket.
Gentleman Johnny and DoTArchon both fell to their knees, simultaneously faceplanting in the dirt.
Rofl, Michael Bay. Did anyone actually think these movies were good? You have the ability to befriend giant, sentient robots no abilities aside from your vote.
You are Even Stevens Shia LaBeouf, Town 1-Shot Innocent Child.
As the loveable Louis Stevens, those you target with your pranks ultimately know that you mean well. Once per Night, you may target a player. That player will learn that you are Town.
You are Actual Cannibal Shia LaBeouf, Serial Killer.
Quiet, quiet! Rob Cantor couldn’t have possibly known your true nature when he wrote that song, right? But somehow, he got all the details correct, down to the location of your secret forest cabin. Hearing his song, the hunger rises within you, yet again…the determination not to let it end like in the song drives you. The voices in your head whisper, “Kill...DEVOUR!” Your body is no longer yours to control, your senses overwhelmed with an insatiable bloodlust. This is the true you; this is the realest, most primal form of...Shia LaBeouf.
Once per Night, you may target a player. That player will be killed.
In an effort to disguise yourself to the lesser, disgusting bags of flesh that share your face, you have already devoured and assimilated the characteristics of Motivational Shia LaBeouf, Town Recharger. You know that the following is safe to claim, if need be: “Through forcible yelling and the concept of viral videos, you have inspired many people across the planet to pursue their dreams. Once per Night, you may target a player. If that player has a limited-use ability, they will gain an additional use of that ability.”
Show no weakness.
Hide yourself. Blend in with the shadows. Kill them all.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm still salty about the setup, Iso. Having to manufacture three mislynches was a drag even without Vaimes randomly saving Grimclaw and Dota randomly getting confirmed. Losing the chance to mislynch or at least sow confusion about those two was a real drag. And that's setting aside that the vengeful townie could even give the town a fourth lynch.
Also that false claim makes no sense. Two of the three roles are pointless to recharge!
Anyway. Dota targeting Anak was a brilliant move; though he might have just done it because Anak was his biggest threat, Anak was also the one person I was definitely not going to nightkill, since I didn't really want to go into a showdown with Dota even if I could guess right (and I didn't like the odds of that anyway). Had Dota targeted me, I probably still would have confirmed him, but that would have probably just made him trust me even more, which would have been bad for Anak.
The falseclaim makes perfect sense. Didn't you read Vaimes's ability? Anybody he targeted, he would protect - regardless of when they died (minus lynching). That means that if he had multiple shots and targeted multiple players, even if they had gotten hit by Grimclaw's ability, Vaimes would have died, instead.
Grimclaw didn't technically have shots, so he couldn't be "recharged".
DoT also made sense to recharge in the event that one of his initial targets died before they could confirm him or whatever.
Anyway, most scum teams have to generate 3 mislynches, so it seemed fair to not screw the town out of that in the event that the Vengeful misfired.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Right, but the reason why scum teams have to generate 3 mislynches is there's usually 3 of them to do it; the margin of error is much broader. (If getting a townie lynched costs one of the mafia his life, that could be alright provided they aren't making trades like that every single time.) Doing it all by myself basically required that several townies blunder massively and nothing weird happen to prevent me from railing them, while also making sure nobody thought too hard about why everyone I accused died.
The Bur mislynch was pretty easy, because his mistake was similar enough to his mistake in Drunken Tracker to easily analogize them. But losing Vaimes, my #2, to the bodyguarding (nice target choice, by the way, Vaimes) basically put me on my ass. The unhappiness in that first post I made Day 2 is pretty genuine, though not for the stated reason. I was telling the truth about being busy in real life through most of Day 2 and not realizing which day was the deadline - it was just convenient that that made it easier to stay out of the fray on DV. If I'd had to case DV, I don't think I could have mustered enough trust (from GJ at least) to also push Anaklusmos, because in both cases the case had to be the same, i.e. "this player's characteristic posting style is nonetheless representative only of being scum, not of being themselves".
I didn't notice that about Vaimes, but the point's the same - recharging Grim obviously wouldn't work, and recharging Dota is such a corner case as to not really require the setup space. Hence why I went with a backup, who could at least perform the same function for each of those two. (Admittedly, I could have finessed it a bit better, e.g. "only if they didn't use their ability".)
I feel like the setup worked exactly the way it was supposed to. If every townie was a paragon of townieness, yes - you'd have had a brutal struggle. But we all know that rarely does every townie pull it together long enough to result in a perfect win.
How many mislynches do you think would have been fair for you? 2? I feel like that results in a salty town. At least this way, you won and the town felt like they had a chance, IMO.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
On a side note, I felt really lost this game. While I kind of had this feeling that I didn't trust Xyre I had the same feeling about Grimclaw, and I couldn't put my finger on anything that either of them were doing that made them suspicious. Any thoughts on things I should be doing?
Either was was an enjoyable game to read from the outside, frustrating for my incompetence.
First of all, well done Xyre. I really enjoyed my time in this game as well, thanks to you Iso.
Sorry to the rest of the town, I just didn't play a great game. When I had that day to argue a case, going back through the game I realized how poor I had played. So I made the PBPA, knowing that Xyre would have a rebuttal, but if nobody asked a question I would just sit after that and hope. Getting into a longer debate with Xyre wouldn't help matters (much better player than I, and an advantageous position) so I thought the best chance we had was take my shot and roll the dice.
We'll get 'em next time town. Any advice for me after this game, I see some things I certainly would do differently, but the advice of others is always much better.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
@Xyre: Fair enough
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Confirmed roles:
1-shot Innocent Child (Immune to lynch)
1-shot Bodyguard (Redirects a NK)
1-shot Vengeful Town (Can possibly steal a win in LyLo if mislynched)
Vanilla
Vanilla
Vanilla
Does it seem overpowered to also have a backup should town lose one of these roles early on considering there is only 1 scum?
Not sure I would say that I came in to this day with weakness, more that I was very torn. In Trackers, I really was very weak in how I started the day knowing that I had a confirmed scum. Today, I had a confirmed town, which I let everyone know immediately, then had to try and pick between two players that I thought were pretty likely town as scum. Indecision would be accurate, but not weakness.
You may say that I am arguing semantics, but my larger point is that I needed to consider more before going after someone in this case. After Xyre's voting me post, I think he is the better course of action. Now is the time for offense, having found the direction I want to pursue.
In general, I tend to be a more passive person. Observing and pointing things out is very natural for me, but casing someone and pushing them if I believe them to be scum is harder for me, on a personality level. So when I try to do that, I'm more awkward about it and sort of flounder around. That passivity has its benefits, being less committal I tend to live longer in games, but it usually raises peoples suspicions as the game goes on and there are only so few people remaining. In games without a claim to save me, I get lynched late. You all probably don't care, which is totally fair, but I want to throw it out there.
Posting tonight will be sporadic, will do what I can
No, I said that if I was scum then I would have created a WIFOM-fest as scum, if I implied something else my apologies. DV dying could have made some of your reads change, which is another reason that I would have held out from confirming DotA as scum. What I am trying to argue is that by coming out and confirming him to start the day, I significantly increase my chance to get lynched, and as such why would I do that as scum? Especially because I made it clear that I did not believe his claim yesterday, it felt the most appropriate to me to come out with that information right away.
@DotA At that point (post 95) D_V was scummier for the whole voting without voting thing, but then Bur became worse with the whole not defending himself at all defense. As evidenced by the list you show, where Bur is below DV again. Pushing DV further never really got a chance because of the deadline and everyone's attention shifting to Bur, seemed more worthwhile to investigate that further than try to distract from that considering the time crunch.
As to the setup speculation, that thought struck me as well. I'm no setup master, but 4 town PR's against (most likely) one SK is really unbalanced to me, even if they aren't the strongest PR's. This further's my belief that Xyre is the hiding scum, as his claimed role has no way to be verified right now.
Your response to me saying basically: "I am lynching you if the day were to end now" you immediately went defense. Town don't play defense like that against people they think are scum. Even a more passive player would at least try to ask me a question, or gather more information.
You are the most likely target by your own words if you create the dichotomy. I could potentially turn on Xyre or Xyre could potentially turn on me, or you die either way. The scum play would be to make it a 3-way, rather than a 2-way if either case likely ends with you dead. So when you say:
That, would be suicide, as you acknowledged both me and Xyre likely still vote you in either stance.
As far as Xyre claiming a PR when we have three, all three PRs are relatively weak: 1-shot neighbor, 1-shot bodyguard, and a vengeful townie? None of those are superstrong, and don't actually narrow down. I could believe a back-up exists, and even if I didn't, Xyre would have thought the same thing. There is no way he thought claiming a PR gives him any protection today. If nothing else, it makes him look more suspicious.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Really, any unfairness in this setup toward the scum seems to lie in the numbers, not the individual powers.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Anak actually is voting for me? Which makes this feel even more part and parcel with his behavior all game, i.e. expressing a tacit opinion and waiting for someone to turn his words into actions. And his case on me seems to boil down to "he's voting for me"? And he still isn't willing to disclaim GJ as scum?
I can buy someone being a passive player. But there's passive play by townies (checking and double checking) and there's passive play by scum (waiting out the clock, pushing wagons clandestinely, and equivocating). This is the latter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we're waiting for you to decide whom you're voting?
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Vote: Anak, I just can't see Johnny and Xyre as scum.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Anaklusmos (2): Xyre, DoTArchon (L-2)
With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Gah, I just don't know what to do at this point. We have a few more days before the deadline, let me at least use that time to attempt to try to convince you otherwise.
In a game with numbers that already favor the town, giving them a 4th PR seems excessive, even when they aren't the strongest PR's. It actually makes more sense to me that there would be 2 PR's than 4 considering the numbers advantage.
@Xyre Well I'm nothing if not consistent, which doesn't mean a whole lot at this point. But why are scum the only ones capable of pushing wagons poorly, or wanting to use all the time in a day to discuss?
@GJ I became more defensive because of the fact that I know that if I die, we lose. Kind of like playing really safe to preserve a lead in a game, except for the whole I would be losing in this case. My gut reaction was to try and prevent me from dying and losing, then going from there. Also Xyre claiming that role makes him more suspicious, but is that actually raising suspicion from you, or is it the "scum wouldn't draw that suspicion willingly, so he's town" suspicion?
Also notice how Xyre has more than once saluted you and said that you have played so well? He's doing that to avoid drawing suspicion from you at this point, knowing that your vote is required to lynch him. All he has to do is keep you happy, and convince DotA to vote me, and boom. What better way to do that? He is pushing me because I am the easiest mis-lynch, and is waving any detraction by saying he would rather lose than change. How does a townie not consider the other possibilties at this point of the game (even if that other possibility is you GJ)?
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
huh, so your a hold'em player.
I don't suppose you live anywhere near IL?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I wanna see what changes now that he knows I can't be scum.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
The GJ way path to no lynching:
First post is essentially RVS, some friendly banter with GC. Null.
Subtly sows some doubt as to the number of scum in the game, though something that's just as likely to come from him as town. Null.
Its generally a bad idea yes, but why not talk about how it would apply to this game? I would expect town!Xyre to describe why its a bad idea, especially considering we are uncertain about the number of scum. Instead he just says its a bad idea, for what appears to be to get the town to move on from the idea. Slightly scum.
Asks Vaimes to explain that rather confusing post, as any role could, but I believe this to actually be good. Slightly town.
Bur starts discussing claims, and Xyre puts up a defense as though he wants to hide some part of his role. Not unreasonable as town though, null.
Its hard to gauge a ton from this reaction, as Bur was being not-forthcoming about his reasoning, and Xyre's question is one that I would expect from either side. What is concerning is that he expresses doubts about Bur's intentions, without stating how that make's him feel about Burs alignment, like he is waiting for others to chime in before he starts calling Bur scum. As town, I would expect Xyre to start pushing Bur on this point instead of lingering around and waiting. Slightly scum.
Oh, there it is. Xyre now jumps onto Bur, once he has seen that others are pushing back against Bur. He was already critical of Bur, why did he wait for others to chime in? It's because he didn't want to be pushing back against someone that came up with a claim that everyone else supported. The odd part of this vote is that only one sentence explains why he specifically thinks Bur is scum, and instead is mostly just pointing out what Bur was saying. And his reason for Bur being scum, not wanting to be wrong, is just as likely to come from town!Bur. Its not like town want to be wrong about the discussions they have and claims/theories they make. It's as though Xyre sees the negative reactions towards Bur, and wants to get on the wagon early to hide from the eventual town flip, but can't find any real reason to vote (hence, one sentence on why Bur is scum, and many more on just general observation). Scummy.
Now, knowing that he didn't really have much of a reason for his vote, he posts this meta argument against Bur. But this logic doesn't make much sense either, Bur got lynched as scum because of (almost) exactly that kind of posting, why would he do it again? Note that he doesn't explain WHY this makes Bur scum, he just says Bur is. Scummy.
Questions me on a weird defense-that-wasn't-supposed to be, explains his mindset about DV, and wants more response about a post from Vaimes. Overall, slightly town for that.
But the kicker here is the "Still happy voting Bur." Why are you happy voting Bur? You explain more reasoning behind your read of DV above than you have in 3 posts about the person you are voting! Instead its just more, meh Bur's scum, but town would be explaining how all of the discussion that took place further reinforces Bur being scum. Scummy, as he is trying to push Bur's wagon along without sticking his neck out too far.
How does that affect your read on Vaimes or GJ? Again Xyre states something is scummy, as opposed to why what that person did makes them scummy. Slightly scummy.
A lot of this post remains consistent with what his thoughts have been so far, but again almost all of his reasonings are What reasons, not Why reasons. Particularly his reasonings for me, GC, and DotA (who he trusts but has barely posted to this point in the game?), he names posts and says he agrees or disagrees, but not any explanation of why. Something that town could do, sure, but this has been Xyre's MO this game, put forth reads that make it look like you are analyzing the game when he really isn't. Also, the caveat in that post really lets on that Xyre knows more than he is saying. The game is really unknown in terms of roles at this point, what about it makes you think that couldn't apply here? Surface reads and showing that you know more than you are letting on? Scum.
When questioned, this is Xyre's reasoning for his top town-read of the game. He even admits not saying much of anything, it feels like he was called on his read and this was the best he could come up with to explain it. Slightly scummy.
Another subtle push of Bur's wagon, a no-lynch is really bad for him here so it makes sense, as scum.
After this, Bur dies and flips town, Vaimes is NK'd, and Xyre allegedly becomes a 1-shot Bodyguard.
So the person that he was 'pushing' and voting for most of D1 just flips town, not scum, and Bur is barely mentioned in this post. No "Wow, was I ever wrong there." but instead he just moves on as if he knew how Bur would flip, hoping to bring others with.
NOTE: GC posts this after in 164, "Xyre inspires paranoia in me. My gut is convinced he's scum, my mind can not figure out why. He's playing as I would expect a good experienced player to play regardless of their alignment: with concise but relevant posts. There is one post in particular (154) that makes my spider senses tingle, but that's about it." and later "The game has an SK as the only scum. In this case Xyre would be my choice for most likely cannibal." Remember this.
Glosses over the fact that one of the more consensus townies of the group just called him scum, and questions DV (rightfully, but still). No response to the above?
Well there is one reason you would think they are guaranteed town, you being scum. You're awfully trusting of reads that you started the day rather disliking, you no longer are questioning those reads at all at this point, even though you all lynched town? Odd.
Now Xyre thinks that we have a single scum, not eeentirely sure how he got that conclusion from Dota's claim, but sure. No questioning or debating with GC about GC's point of Xyre being the only scum on a one-man team though, and from his perspective he can NK whoever Dota targets for at least a chance to render Dota's ability worthless (and set-up for the mislynch that would occur tomorrow if he hit).
Not questioning ride-or-die judgments is another way of posting reads on people with minimal reasoning (avoiding potential contradictions etc.) Also, one of the people that you are willing to concede the game to (GJ) called you scum in the course of action you 'believe' is the truth, and you still don't respond to that.
The deadline is coming really close, Xyre can't afford a no lynch. Faking not knowing the deadline is the easiest way for him to pass off hammering a mis-lynch. I'm not debating the flight, life is life, more that he 'promised' a read, conveniently forgetting the deadline, and using that to vote DV.
DV dies, flips town. GC is NK'd, Xyre allegedly protected GJ
NOTE: Remember what I told you to remember? Hey look, the person stating that if there was one scum in the game would most likely be Xyre is now dead! Convenient that, considering we now know there is one scum. Xyre never acknowledged this point, and then killed GC to prevent him from pushing Xyre today as Xyre knew GC would.
Now Xyre knows he has to lynch me, so he is off to try and build a case on someone he was calling townie the whole game. Reversing course on GJ is suicide considering his ride-or-die read, and he knows that I am telling the truth on DotA.
Read: I didn't want to vote someone that I knew would flip town without making it look like a legitimate vote. So instead Xyre waits until the deadline, knowing that people wouldn't go back and think twice on that hammer.
Next he posts his PBPA of me, a lot of what I did and me being an SK. But only a couple times does he even make mention of the fact that lots of things he thinks make me scum, he thought made me town previously. As if he is trying to avoid making this look like a near-complete about face of his stance on me.
No comment on how he had to change a read on one of his ride-or-die lists, which I would think would give town!Xyre a bit of paranoia (it would me!).
Look at his own methodology for passive play as scum? Reads as pretty familiar doesn't it? Waiting out the clock (DV's lynch), pushing wagons clandestinely (Bur's lynch), equivocating (ride-or-die lists for lynch).
You have been calling him town since D1, but never really explained well what part of GJ fit in his townie wheelhouse. Also, you never really questioned your read on him past the first day (based on how you state you avoid paranoia), so not sure how you rationalize that.
T(way way)L:DR Xyre has pushed both wagons from the background, and simply disregarded anyone calling him scum instead of questioning them and responding to it like town would. Particularly GC's claim of Xyre being the scum if there is only one, he never mentions that, and proceeds to NK GC before we move to the point where its confirmed to have 1 scum. He makes claims about having one read on people and sticking to that, but when he has to switch a read on someone (me on D3), he does so without an issue, so which is it? Its an inconsistent mentality that you are trying show as genuine, though I will say you have done it all well Xyre. But you are scum, and I hope this convinces you all of that.
- I didn't push DV; I expressed reservations about his wagon the entire day (his position on my town/scum list was consistently neutral, reflecting how inconsistent his behavior is) and only voted him because I got off an airplane with mere minutes left in the day and had to vote lest we unwittingly NL. Dota and GJ can vouch for how annoying it was to make that mistake in the last Iso game we played in, Mafia Classic. And you showed up right after me to essentially confirm you'd do the same thing.
- I didn't respond to GC because it wasn't directed at me, or for that matter at anyone; it was a musing apropos of nothing. And yet you think I'm so conscious of every comment about me that I'd perfectly coordinate my kills to eliminate my suspects? Anyway, if I were scum, wouldn't it make more sense to take out the player who I've consistently and unabashedly said is town? That widens the suspect pool, which creates more doubt. (This is all WIFOM each way, but that just makes this entire conspiracy theory worse - who knows who killed whom for what reason, or pretending to be someone else with a particular reason, etc.)
- I switched my read on you because (a) that read was largely based on cursory observations from the first hundred posts of the game, and (b) because process of elimination on Dota and GJ. How is that inconsistent? Are you suggesting that anyone who changes their mind and/or reconsiders past assumptions must have an agenda? Because that's all I'm getting from "an inconsistent mentality" (which, let's face it, is based on one observation alone, in which you're terribly self-interested).
And that's all ignoring the other point, which is this: I think you're accusing me primarily because I'm accusing you - maybe because you think I'm more vulnerable than GJ, maybe because you just want to sow doubt, I dunno.
Anyway, the PBPA itself:
Why on earth would the game benefit from a debate about philosophy? And GJ knows why I think no-lynch is a bad idea, hence his ready acceptance of my disagreement and the end of that conversation. You're spinning this.
I was giving Bur as much rope as he needed to hang himself. He was dodging around giving a real reason as to why he wanted a flavor claim, but townies can unwittingly omit rationales too. I wasn't going to accuse him until I was convinced it was truly a fishing expedition. And I'm still convinced what he was doing was a move primarily in the scum wheelhouse, and that I played all that correctly.
Bull. I gave him every chance he needed to explain himself. A simple "I think the scum don't have a safe claim and thus flavor-claims might catch a scum unawares" would have been perfectly sufficient, and also made a good deal of sense (even if I'd disagree that such a tactic was likely to work, since Iso's a careful designer). Instead, Bur hemmed and hawed, and the post you quoted was me throwing up my hands.
Your argument here boils down to correlation = causation - because other people were voting contemporaneously, I must have been hiding among them. Which is absolutely untrue, and misses the crux of my argument, which is "townies do X, scum do Y, Bur has been given every chance to do X and appears to be doing Y, ergo he's likely scum". That didn't come to me instantly, but after repeated scrutiny of him. Again, I stand by my pursuit of Bur.
Meta arguments work because people don't change their stripes just by wishing things really bad.
And also, you're a hypocrite, because you barned me hard for just this similarity in #67. So which is it? Meta arguments are strong, or meta arguments are weak? I was right for finding Bur to be scummy based on his meta, or I was wrong? Or is it your opinion on meta arguments has shifted because you think hanging Bur's towniness on me can get you across the finish line?
I was wrong. I'm not going to deny that. I've been wrong playing the game of mafia far, far more than I've been right. But there's a difference between being wrong earnestly and being wrong maliciously. Your case on me for Day 1 is almost all based on deliberately blurring the lines between these two, essentially implying I must be scum because Bur was town. And all the while in denial about how valid that lynch was, and how much you supported it at the time.
Okay, now this is just ridiculous. I'm not pushing Bur's wagon at all with that post! I'm just reaffirming where I stand in relation to all the wagons, i.e. status quo. Nothing's changed, hence no comment. You have no basis at all for concluding this is scummy, because it isn't.
I wasn't accusing Vaimes there, I was defending GJ. I think "buddying" is one of many buzzwords people throw around a lot because they assume it reflects scummy behavior. In practice, players often agree with people they agree with (which sounds like a tautology, but what I mean is if you find someone with whom you agree on a particular point, you often look at their other opinions more favorably). It's very hard to distinguish earnest positive feelings from an attempt at elaborate subterfuge-by-flattery. But usually, people don't even put in the effort, they just say "buddying". That's not to say that those people are scummy for saying it, they're just buying into a common misperception. All I wanted to make clear was GJ's purported buddying behavior wasn't suspicious (even before you consider that he was trying to lay an overly-elaborate semi-trap).
Again conflating failing to do elaborate legwork with having something to hide. The post itself reflects its nature as a quick-and-dirty rundown to give people some sense of where I stand (which goes against your very point of trying to hide and play sneakily, because then why am I giving a firm list of scum reads, unprompted, and sticking to it up until the foundations crack in Day 3?), and I gave a number of firm points about why certain posts are suspicious, e.g. for Vaimes. Others I treat cursorily because my opinion of them is captured in other posts.
The only person for whom my read truly was spartan was you, it seems. So yeah, I admit it, I'm capable of having the wool pulled over my eyes by people who barn me. Sue me. I pointed out the actual flaws with your posts today, with clearer vision brought on by process of elimination.
Context is king. I was waiting for things worth talking about, and the thread was stagnating. And again, I was convinced Bur was scum. Of course I wanted him lynched, and wanted people to stop getting distracted so we could concentrate on lynching him.
A, again, I'm wrong all the time. It doesn't raise my blood pressure, and it especially doesn't require a mea culpa. B, I think it's pretty obvious from my tone in that post that I've been affected by Bur flipping town inasmuch as I'm now not sure where to go, besides being unhappy with a default DV lynch.
He didn't call me scum, he conspiratorially muttered that I could be scum. Whoop-de-*******-do. Besides, if I called him out for that, I know right now you'd be going after me with the equally-preposterous "look how self-conscious Xyre is, going after anyone who even remotely suggests he's scum, he must have something to hide."
I can't even follow this sentence. I assume you mean it's weird that I have strong opinions? If you'd played with me, you know I trust strong townie reads (as I call them, "ride or die") above anything. Only if it's me and a bunch of those reads left do I start considering the possibility I might be wrong. Otherwise, as I said to GJ, I'd be forever chasing the very type of paranoid "what if this strong player has got the drop on me" thinking Grim was engaged in. I'm not scum, and he trusted me. But he held me in enough esteem to know I'm the kind of person who could look like a townie even when scum. I feel the same things often about other strong players, and the only way I can keep my head on straight is to put the blinders on and put away my doubts until and unless it's required I do so. That's how I do.
Again, the only thing "odd" about it is what you're reading into it to obfuscate my meaning.
I personally thought we had a single scum since the game began, based on the Actual Cannibal Shia LeBeouf hints. But I'm not arrogant enough to not entertain the possibility of two scum; I just believed Dota's claim and Dota's nature enough to think either (a) there's no danger in leaving him alive, because he's alone, or (b) if he's got a scum buddy, we can catch the scum buddy today and interrogate Dota tomorrow. I just believed there could have been better lynches. Of course, then I fell behind on my IRL responsibilities, shirked my in-game responsibilities, and had to panickedly vote for DV to salvage the day. That was my bad.
Bull*****. You and I both thought the deadline was a day later. My plan was to get off the flight and do my reread so we could proceed with a good lynch tomorrow. But no, me screwing up honestly isn't good enough for your case on me, so it has to be a grand scheme of convenient mistakes.
I protected GJ because knowing Dota, I assumed he might assume GJ was employing some reverse psychology and target him anyway. If Dota doesn't get confirmed today, life becomes much harder. But as I've said before and will say again and again, you have no basis for this theory I killed Grimclaw to protect myself from some convoluted "Xyre is fooling me" musing.
Skipping a few redundant/pointless things...
Is this your way of getting out of, y'know, actually rebutting that PBPA? Claiming that I'm flip-flopping? Okay, you got me, my opinion changed. Again, sue me. Doesn't change the fact that I pointed out tangible, tactics-based reasons why your play is a scum's play. (Also, "lots of things" is a plain exaggeration - I gave you credit for like three posts in my original scum list, mostly because you agreed with me, and again, that was two game days and a lot of history prior.)
No idea what you're talking about. I've been constant about GJ, Grim, and by and large Dota this game. Much as I was consistent about Dota, ETR, etc. from Mafia Classic. I was wrong in my conclusions, but I wasn't wrong in how I drew them, or in trusting them in the face of tempting paranoia.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
And which doesn't address either my concrete PBPA points about him, or how self-serving all of this is, e.g. the fact that he barned me hard for the things I said about Bur which now he's calling strongly scummy, or that he's only discovered these scum tells now that his life is on the line.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Read pbpas, re-read game. I don't think I will ever be able to adapt the "ride or die" mentality. I do however recognize that Xyre has played really well this game, and I can follow his logic quite a bit. Anak really hasn't, and he has felt very low impact until the final day. I don't like how defensive he has been, almost as if he was just trying to endure questions and not die.
Vote Anak Xyre, if you fooled us, well done.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Anaklusmos (3): Xyre, DoTArchon, Gentleman Johnny (L-0)
Xyre (1): Anaklusmos (L-2)
That is a lynch.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Gimme a moment, I'm doing some things around the apartment.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Someone slices his jugular in the struggle. His true identity follows:
Which means...
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
DoTArchon.
Xyre.
One of you are the man we're looking for.
One of you is...
Actual Cannibal Shia LaBeouf.
But which?
DoTArchon declared his innocence.
That means it's between Gentleman Johnny and Xyre.
Gentleman Johnny was too busy humping Megan Fox in Bumblebee, which leaves it to...
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Xyre quickly pulled out his fork and knife, impaling Gentleman Johnny through the neck with the knife. He then whirled around, taking his fork and jamming it through DoT's eye socket.
Gentleman Johnny and DoTArchon both fell to their knees, simultaneously faceplanting in the dirt.
Gentleman Johnny has been endgamed. He was:
DoTArchon has been endgamed. He was:
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Xyre has won! He was:
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Game Over.
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Spectator Chat
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Also that false claim makes no sense. Two of the three roles are pointless to recharge!
Anyway. Dota targeting Anak was a brilliant move; though he might have just done it because Anak was his biggest threat, Anak was also the one person I was definitely not going to nightkill, since I didn't really want to go into a showdown with Dota even if I could guess right (and I didn't like the odds of that anyway). Had Dota targeted me, I probably still would have confirmed him, but that would have probably just made him trust me even more, which would have been bad for Anak.
Also, GJ, #rideordie4life
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Grimclaw didn't technically have shots, so he couldn't be "recharged".
DoT also made sense to recharge in the event that one of his initial targets died before they could confirm him or whatever.
Anyway, most scum teams have to generate 3 mislynches, so it seemed fair to not screw the town out of that in the event that the Vengeful misfired.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The Bur mislynch was pretty easy, because his mistake was similar enough to his mistake in Drunken Tracker to easily analogize them. But losing Vaimes, my #2, to the bodyguarding (nice target choice, by the way, Vaimes) basically put me on my ass. The unhappiness in that first post I made Day 2 is pretty genuine, though not for the stated reason. I was telling the truth about being busy in real life through most of Day 2 and not realizing which day was the deadline - it was just convenient that that made it easier to stay out of the fray on DV. If I'd had to case DV, I don't think I could have mustered enough trust (from GJ at least) to also push Anaklusmos, because in both cases the case had to be the same, i.e. "this player's characteristic posting style is nonetheless representative only of being scum, not of being themselves".
I didn't notice that about Vaimes, but the point's the same - recharging Grim obviously wouldn't work, and recharging Dota is such a corner case as to not really require the setup space. Hence why I went with a backup, who could at least perform the same function for each of those two. (Admittedly, I could have finessed it a bit better, e.g. "only if they didn't use their ability".)
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
How many mislynches do you think would have been fair for you? 2? I feel like that results in a salty town. At least this way, you won and the town felt like they had a chance, IMO.
Additionally, at least it wasn't Pope Mafia.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Well played Xyre
Hopefully, we'll see you in more soon!
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
On a side note, I felt really lost this game. While I kind of had this feeling that I didn't trust Xyre I had the same feeling about Grimclaw, and I couldn't put my finger on anything that either of them were doing that made them suspicious. Any thoughts on things I should be doing?
Either was was an enjoyable game to read from the outside, frustrating for my incompetence.
Sorry to the rest of the town, I just didn't play a great game. When I had that day to argue a case, going back through the game I realized how poor I had played. So I made the PBPA, knowing that Xyre would have a rebuttal, but if nobody asked a question I would just sit after that and hope. Getting into a longer debate with Xyre wouldn't help matters (much better player than I, and an advantageous position) so I thought the best chance we had was take my shot and roll the dice.
We'll get 'em next time town. Any advice for me after this game, I see some things I certainly would do differently, but the advice of others is always much better.