1) You failed to respond to my post 616. When questioned about why you didn't respond, you initially ducked the question (ref. 687), and then (in the post quoted above) insisted that you "have NEVER tried to dodge the subject". The timeline above shows that you did.
The question that TS missed in particular was the one in your 616.
This question was this:
Okay, let's compare. You're positing a hypothetical where Nacho is scum, and where we are pushing scum!Necarg as the lynch choice.
Case 1: scum!Nacho has agreed in advance to a governing. He casually whistles while pardoning scum!Necarg. Necarg lives for an extra day, and we get literally no information on Nacho.
Case 2: scum!Nacho is forced to make his own decision on governing. He decides it's worth saving Necarg. Necarg lives for an additional day, and Nacho is forced to justify his decision to us... hopefully leading to his eventual lynch.
Case 3: scum!Nacho is forced to make his own decision on governing. He decides it's not worth saving Necarg. Necarg dies, any potential night actions he has die with him, and our Day 3 lynch isn't spoken for.
While an argument can be made as to whether we would prefer Case 2 or Case 3, either is strictly better than Case 1. Arguments?
First of all, I don't understand why TS as scum would feel the need to dodge a question about one hypothetical case compared to another. Second of all, you're absolutely correct, TS didn't answer this question, but I don't think his assertion of never dodging the subject (assuming that the subject is talk of how to use my governor) is not incorrect at all: TS has been focusing on the best way to use my governor ability before most other players, and hasn't exactly shied away from how he thinks it should be used best.
2) Your position on Nacho's ability changed significantly between 606 ("We should make a list of people for Nacho to pardon") and 649 ("Nacho should use his ability if there is a mind-screw mislynch"). When questioned on when you changed your mind, you stated that it was when Nacho confirmed the mod-reveal, but this happened in 546 - which is not between 606 and 649.
Unless your memory is incredibly unreliable, you are lying. Your OMGUS is just icing on the cake.
unvote, vote: TappingStones.
For one, what 606 said was that TS had a few ideas for people he'd like to reveal. This does not mean that he currently endorses the reveal Nacho plan; by the time of 606, the only reason wasn't voting Tomsloger was because he didn't trust the votecount 390. Earlier, when he was specifically pushing for me to reveal, he was voting Necarg.
In 689, TS's response was this:
Once Nacho confirmed that it would be a mod reveal I thought through how things would work out best. Given that this is mindscrew Id like to use his ability as the failsafe. Thoughts?
After I confirmed it was a mod reveal, TS was thinking through how to use my ability (this lines up with his actions). Given that this is a mindscrew, he's like (present thoughts) to use my ability is a fail safe.
I understand that your question here was "when did you change your mind?" which wasn't a question that received a direct answer, but TS wasn't saying that he changed his mind when I confirmed the mod reveal, he was saying that he started thinking it through after I confirmed the mod reveal.
What I see happening more here is a breakdown in communication more than you catching TS as scum and him lying to cover his tracks. For one, I don't believe that scum players are compulsive liars: scum lie for a reason, and I don't see why TS would lie about these things specifically. Secondly, I see that he's ignored your questions and I understand why that's frustrating, but, again, I'm 90% sure that TS as scum wouldn't ignore questions because they scared him too much.
I've spent a lot of time trying to phrase and rephrase why I think there's just a particularly bad case of communication breakdown here (starting with TS assuming that my power would be used today and you assuming that TS's plan was to have me govern), but instead I'm streamlining a bit here to make it a bit more organized and readable - let me know if you'd like me to expand on anything specific.
Quick point Nacho: We think you figured it out, but we would prefer if you kept it to yourself. That genie will release itself hopefully tomorrow if a theory is correct.
Read the Classic. TS and Imab were both town in that game and very similar in behaviour to this one. I have a very different way of interacting with people and their play style in that game and this one just rubs me the wrong way. I honestly think that neither of them see it though. For a particularly good example, look at the early argument between TS and OceansBlack. TS constantly accuses OB of personal attacks but also gets more personal the longer the argument goes on. I don't think TS is scum here, but I warn you that this doesn't get any better. Also, there were several times in Classic where TS asked others to ISO players or provide thoughts on them. Same as what we're seeing here.
Imab I'm still on the fence about. He outright lied about an investigative result in Classic (as vanilla town) to get Tom lynched. Tom was neutral in that game, but was town aligned. Might just be that he'll do anything to get his scum reads lynched. Not a great play, but that is how he is, and I think it'll make his scum game harder to catch since he acts scummy even when town.
Something I forgot to add: I lied (as town) in that game as well to save my ass from getting speed lynched. In hindsight I've realised that it was a mistake that almost got me lynched regardless and also distracted town from finding the real scum. Lesson learnt.
I have seen plenty of town lie. But this is just general jackassery. After reading through some of classic dear god. I just, I honestly feel like Ocean quit because of the treatment he received.
Yes, I know that this has gone both ways and is likely to go both ways, but comments like these contribute very heavily towards a toxic atmosphere and don't help anyone. Whenever you accuse someone of being such a jackass that they've essentially forced someone to quit, the natural response is anger; unless TS is a sociopath and specifically made it his goal in Classic to piss OB off (which I don't believe + OB was a massive ass in Classic as well), it wasn't his intention to drive OB away and accusing him of doing so is offensive. This also is clearly not what happened based on his replace out post, meaning that you're accusing TS of a terrible thing that actually wasn't truth. The natural response to this is get angry, and when people are angry, they are asses. This means that TS being an ass to you will only make you angrier than you are, and vicious circles happen.
I understand that your intention with this post is simply to vent, but this is not the place for that. The best possible way to diffuse the situation is to step away; don't respond to a post if you're angry writing it. If you need to take some time to ignore TS, sure, do that, but please make some effort to end this before it develops further.
What I see happening more here is a breakdown in communication more than you catching TS as scum and him lying to cover his tracks. For one, I don't believe that scum players are compulsive liars: scum lie for a reason, and I don't see why TS would lie about these things specifically. Secondly, I see that he's ignored your questions and I understand why that's frustrating, but, again, I'm 90% sure that TS as scum wouldn't ignore questions because they scared him too much.
Its not just Rob though.
Its me, its Tom. Its anyone who challenges him. I'm sorry, but there are so many inconsistencies in what he says. I agree that scum don't necessarily lie, but this something else its so many of these things and then him yelling misrep. Stop defending him with the argument of "I don't see how a scum player does this", because that just isn't an argument in this case.
Hes lying about his intentions and saying that anyone who challenges him is misreping him. But to me this is just bold scum behavior, he did it once and got a pass, now he knows he can just make up what ever he wants and people are going to give him his free pass. This is how I interpret this behavior. And I also find this argument silly, because you are assuming he is playing correctly. He isn't he hasn't read the thread and he has proven this he makes sweeping remarks. And for example with me he just says things that are not true then says i am not reading the thread.
alright. you all know how i think the following will turn out, but just ignore that.
@nacho would you be willing to reveal TS' alignment for today?
if he is town, you remove a significant amount of the conflict in the game. and if he is scum, awesome.
alright. you all know how i think the following will turn out, but just ignore that.
@nacho would you be willing to reveal TS' alignment for today?
if he is town, you remove a significant amount of the conflict in the game. and if he is scum, awesome.
Lets wait to see what Azreal has to say first. But, I might be ok with this.
I did a quick ISO on Hawk after his latest post, wondering what he's actually said this game. It's almost nothing. There was a bit of back and forth view on Tom, but very little said about it other than Tom's tendency to scumslip means he's fine having him as town for now. There was a Hans vote because he believes in LAL early on as well. Other than that...really nothing at all. Also, I know he said he's at the bottom of page 12, so I won't hold it against him, but I retracted my evidence of Tom being scum within the next couple of posts.
Ghosting, while I completely understand your mindset here (I too tried interacting with hawk in this way), I don't think it's the way to play this early in the day. I'd argue that while there has been a pretty large amount of content dropped on the thread, there's also been a lot of noise: a lot of what's happening right now is mostly just spinning wheels, especially if you (like I do) believe that all the hot topics of conversation are very likely town.
Now is the time to move forward. I believe that most players have crossed the type of lines that they don't cross unless the emotion they are feeling is genuine (DV's attacks on TS, TS's attack on DV back), and I don't believe that they are scum feeling these emotions because the arguments all started with "you lied about my posts", and I don't think scum get so offended over posts being misrepresented, misconstrued. If you think that Hawk might be scum (which is sort of what this post is implying), but a vote on him (but actually Tom). I am perfectly willing to lynch but if you'd rather me reveal Hawk as opposed to letting him die well that's fine too.
BTW, I had shinen nailed from his first and then second posts and I'm sorry you got quicklynched for Roleplaying. Don't stop doing things like that because it ended poorly that time. Btw, meta reads seem to take exponential effort the longer a game is.
Seconding this.
The entire reason I read that game was because your roleplaying was hilarious
Its not reasonable for him to think that I changed it multiple times. Its a lie. He commented as though he had noticed it. Read the sentence. He directly says that I changed it multiple times and that he took note of it.
To the entire town.
Actually please explain to me how this it is reasonable that he thought that I changed my avatar multiple times and that he made a comment that he noticed that my posts aligned with me changing my avatar. I would love to not be freaking out about this at this point. Because to me this is such a god damn scum tell, I don't know any other way to read it. Please make it make sense.
Just my comment we just lynched bur in another game for the same play businessman is bringing up. Was town. Thats about all I'll say about an ongoing game, but I wouldn't go after that behavior.
The question that always comes up in the face of something like this is why on earth would IMAB lie about that for a scum advantage? The only thing it does, as far as I can see, is get you to read him as scum (not helpful), or gets the two of you to get in a weird fight for the rest of the game (don't think this is his strategy as scum).
not didnt know why, couldnt remember why. pretty important difference.
hes been real forgettable bro.
now would you like to answer any of my questions? like, ever?
straight up, i would love to townread you. that would make you significantly nicer to me and probably change your opinion of me.
but you are absolutely making it impossible.
why am i neutral? why did you phrase it that way? do you think hans is hard to read? did you not realize hans couldnt answer your questions without revealing his role? how am i inconsistent/not trying to solve the game?
some of these questions are 12 pages old.
Tom I DONT CARE if you scum read me. Every post you make is either false or some sort of contradiction. If you want to be the lone player scumreading me and then see in postgame that Im not scum again then so be it. The annoying thing is that you refuse to play Mafia in a consistent fashion and leads to a lot of facepalms from the player base.
I have a theory you might be scum aligned. Whether you are a scum aligned neutral or not is based on how you dont want to solve the game. Like literally zero interest. Suggests to me that you have an alternate win con.
I dont think Hans is necessarily hard to read, like you he isnt very consistent. Of course Hans could answer my question without revealing his role, but the fact is that his choice to claim responsibility for ending the day was unnecessary WIFOM.
Oh!
Tom, why did you think that TS was originally calling you a scum-aligned neutral?
@All-Sorry for several posts in a row but I'm usually awake when you folks are sleep, at work, etc. I think we can go forward with Necarg. Who has a problem with voting Necarg now? He has edited some comments (click on Tom's link), it's not substantial and changes nothing. He just doubled down on the "TS is role-fishing" nonsense.
@Nacho-Interesting that you mentioned how you view people that have strong reads on you. I subscribe to the same theory and thing it's the easiest way to learn about people because we know our own roles and can operate from a position of information.
I'm not sure I currently have the heart to kill Necarg after a day of rereading. I keep running into random posts he's editing/liking, and I completely understand why it might be difficult for someone to keep up with this particular game (there is a crap ton of content/words/feelings) to sift through, and I like that he's at least making the effort to do so. I, of course, don't mind revealing him, but currently feel we have a better chance at hitting scum in Hawk/Jobie.
I have a theory you might be scum aligned. Whether you are a scum aligned neutral or not is based on how you dont want to solve the game. Like literally zero interest. Suggests to me that you have an alternate win con.
backpedal time!
seriously. ive literally been asking about that for a full week since you said it, and the best you could come up with is you think i have an alternate win con?
wouldnt i be more likely to want to solve the game as a neutral that doesnt already have the info?
this was a scum slip. im so happy nacho finally forced you to talk about it.
This particular point is weak, Tom. Yes, TS's theory is a bit strange but it's also just an errant theory and not something that's been fully developed and you've had dumb theories before yourself. We all have.
@Nacho-In what world is Tom town here? I can see him making this many mistakes as town. He has a lot of lies to keep track of this game and it's leading to massive amounts of slips.
Well, the significant marker for Tom being town (and people in general, really) that I look for is depth of thought. Tom has had a lot of fully fleshed out reads on a number of players that shows that he's paying attention to the game and thinking about it. His recent Necarg thought is an example of that: it's one that I was holding as I was catching up and noticed Tom also had it. His hansanator read quietly going stale is another example: if tom was scum, he would have to downgrade Hans consciously and would likely make a comment about it but I liked how that didn't happen. I liked his DV read; his role reasons were pretty understandable. I liked his read on me; his reasons for slotting me as town (his role-related reasons, no less) were pretty reasonable considering past experience and is something a couple of more experienced players didn't really catch. It takes a truly talented scum player (not just one who is willing to put in effort) to be able to fake something like this to the point of being townread for depth of thought and depth of thought alone, and I'm not sure he's talented enough to fake something like that.
On the flip side of things, I feel like one of his weaknesses as town is that he lets himself get carried away with reads and doesn't necessarily know how to read the signals he gets back; when he tries to specifically read a player, he analyzes too many things and flips the cards too many times and his accuracy suffers as a result, if that makes sense. I'd love to provide some harder details about some things I've learned about him, but cannot for obvious reason, but the short of it is that the reads he focuses on the least are the reads that tend to be the most insightful and the strongest reads as town but this isn't the case when he's scum.
Its me, its Tom. Its anyone who challenges him. I'm sorry, but there are so many inconsistencies in what he says. I agree that scum don't necessarily lie, but this something else its so many of these things and then him yelling misrep. Stop defending him with the argument of "I don't see how a scum player does this", because that just isn't an argument in this case.
Hes lying about his intentions and saying that anyone who challenges him is misreping him. But to me this is just bold scum behavior, he did it once and got a pass, now he knows he can just make up what ever he wants and people are going to give him his free pass. This is how I interpret this behavior. And I also find this argument silly, because you are assuming he is playing correctly. He isn't he hasn't read the thread and he has proven this he makes sweeping remarks. And for example with me he just says things that are not true then says i am not reading the thread.
If you don't understand why a person is doing what they are doing, then it's very likely that your read on them is not great. This is a game about understanding intention: if you don't understand their intention, you don't understand anything. I feel like TS has a tendency to respond by accusing people of misrepresenting him before attempting to resolve communication issues: this is a spot where he could improve in play, but it's not alignment indicative.
I haven't found TS lying about his intentions: I've been shown TS "lying" that IMAB was right about you changing your avatar multiple times, I've been shown TS "lying" about avoiding talking about situations and answering questions. I haven't found TS lying about his intentions. If you want me on your side, show me that.
Your theory that TS discovered he can lie and get away with it and is now lying for no other reason than he is scum is not a compelling one; I don't believe people lie because they are scum; people lie because those lies benefit them as scum. Show me how those lies benefit TS as scum.
As for the reading the thread part, TS has shown an understanding of certain situations that clearly demonstrate he is reading the thread. He has misinterpreted other situations. I'd also say this about myself, RobRoy, and Tom.
alright. you all know how i think the following will turn out, but just ignore that.
@nacho would you be willing to reveal TS' alignment for today?
if he is town, you remove a significant amount of the conflict in the game. and if he is scum, awesome.
I'd love to reveal his alignment for the day, but I'm not currently convinced it will remove conflict unless both sides back off each other a bit; this situation clearly runs deeper than "I think he is scum and I'm mad at him as a result".
@Tom-Iso yourself as a thought experiment. Why might I suggest that you are a scum aligned neutral? Then think deeper, why did I ask you this question. Do yourself a favor and actually dig deeper. Brushing it off wont help you.
@Tom-Why might I think you are a scum-aligned neutral? Have you considered why I said that yet?
yeah im not linking all of those.
that would be crazy.
Quote from nacho »
I'd love to reveal his alignment for the day, but I'm not currently convinced it will remove conflict unless both sides back off each other a bit; this situation clearly runs deeper than "I think he is scum and I'm mad at him as a result".
well its really hard to move back to civility when youre thinking the other is out to kill you.
plus TS is an omgus machine so it may remove as much as double the amount of probably false scumreads.
I am going to come in here and nip this in the butt. Ignoring anyone in a game is anti town as you are depriving interaction and yourself of information.
Ignoring people in a game makes it more difficult to read that player, yes. Responding to a player when you can't separate from their posts emotionally also makes it more difficult to objectively read a player. Sometimes separating yourself is the lesser of two evils.
TS has wobbled on pretty much everything he has to say. For example look at Tom and His interactions. Every time Tom calls him on anything, he changes his tune just enough for it to "Make sense" and then calls it a misrepresentation of what he is saying.
The quotes you posted have now been changed to lyrics from "One Week" by the Barenaked Ladies. Mind Screw indeed, but not Smashmouth specific.
this is my seed of doubt with necarg. hes having a lot of fun with the editing instead of posting.
like, hes actively making himself suspicious by making us have to scour the thread for his changes and never be able to trust his posts are what he actually said.
Also, if Tapping is town this game it'd be lovely if you listen to me on this read maybe one time in the future.
You know.
As a personal favor for a bro.
Also keep posting so I don't triple post? Phone is dying but I'd like to catch up before it is dead and don't want to wallpost on phone.
And just like a good deal, it's time to close this day out. I want Azrael to keep working on his PBPA.
Nacho, this day has gone on long enough, and as it starts to drift, the more people are going to stop caring about this game. We can't have that happen.
I was told to tell you that. I agree 120% with that sentiment.
I want this day to die a good death, yes.
I am caught up, I will maybe respond to things later.
Apologies, I meant to post this.
Please vote TS or Hawk or Jobie or Necarg. Hawk and Jobie are scum. We can kill them. Necarg has support. TS is not scum but revealing his alignment may be the beginning of a healing process.
Big long TS list::::: I used Nacho’s formatting for symmetry
TOWN:
Tomsloger - I don’t think Tom can possibly fake this level of indignation as scum.
imabusinessman - This is Imab, and again, I don’t feel like he would be as vocal and obstinate if he were scum.
D_V- I have generally liked his posts and have agreed with several of his points. I have not agreed with his conclusions fully, but I like his attempts at solving the game.
TappingStones - Again, this just sounds and looks like the same old Tapping. The fight between the above four is some of the most obvious town vs town fighting I have seen. They all believe themselves to be right, and NONE more so than TS.
Nacho - Nacho probably reads me the best out of players in the game. I truly feel he would have tried to use this to get me lynched if he were scum.
KillJoy – Killjoy is shaking off the ring rust like I mentioned earlier. His questions are great and I have followed his thought process
RobRoy - I have been loving RobRoy’s posts lately. They seem genuine and involved and the content reads true.
Bur – I am giving Bur the benefit of the doubt right now, as I have yet to see a few of the scum traits I look for with him. His availability is the only thing holding this back a level of towniness. I will have this solidified as the game goes on…
Hansanator – Hansa’s early stuff was classic Hansa. Waiting on the game to progress before I strengthen this read.
Anaklusmos - Feeling confident that Anak will also be more revealing as time goes on, but nothing has jumped out at me today as being overtly scummy.
Gentleman Johnny – I had a brief moment of real paranoia around my last post where I was feeling like GJ had duped me, but his string of posts over the last few days has been great, plus I trust Nacho’s assessment of him.
Darth_Melvin - Who? Oh, right…
Jobie - Waiting on Jobie to post some more, but I know the feeling of being newly married. It has been most of the reason I have been less active over the last 6 months. I do worry that it could be Jobie being upset over rolling another non-town role. Got my eye on him.
leukovirus - Similarly, waiting on more from leuko, but I have my eye on him as well. Have a gut read on what I have read that puts Leuko as lean scum.
DoTArchon - I was BRIEFLY scum with Dota in MvW, but I was able to read the thread and the scum qt the whole game, which let me have an in on Dota’s playstyle. I am seeing some similarities here, but again, watching until more info comes to light.
Hawk – Trusting my town blocks reads here. I could get behind his lynch today.
SCUM:
Ghosting – I’m actually curious… @Ghosting, why do YOU think I am scumreading you?
Necarg - We’ve gone over this.
Brief musings::::::
Az I doubt has an alignment. I think we could call him “neutral” for lack of a better term, as he has absolutely made it known that he is not town, and not scum, and is fine with playing both sides in order to keep himself “alive.” Again, alive is a loosely used term here, as he is not exactly a part of the mafia portion of this game. We don’t know how he “dies” or leaves the game, nor do I frankly care. I think our efforts are better focused on scum hunting and not looking at the shiny objects put in front of us to distract us from that end.
Can everyone, pretty please, stop talking about current ongoing games. I have seen all kinds of references to DIFFERENT ongoing games. Please. Stop...
I ask everyone, what do you think the scum are chasing in this game? The higher complexity games often add things the scum team need to figure out on their own or chase down, mostly to help even the playing field some. This game being probably the most convoluted and complex game most of us have ever played (don’t want to speak for the veterans out there), there MUST be something that the scum team are searching for. Whether that’s a neutral-aligned player, some kind of town role they have knowledge of, another scum team, some kind of “cookie” the mod gave them to chase, or any of a million other possibilities; I feel we should also be on the lookout for these kind of tells. So far I have seen TS mention the neutral alignment of Tom, which adds some scum points his way; Ghosting has searched for “others who can speak to voices” or however it might have been phrased; a couple players mentioned the possibility of killing off Az (I think Tom, and someone else?); and a few other nuggets of non-scum hunting. Anyone else have an example to add to the pile? These tells are something for us to pay attention to moving forward, especially after we get a scum flip.
A couple notes about my play: I hate Meta, though I acknowledge its importance in the game; and I also subscribe to the method TS and Nacho mentioned earlier. I pay attention to the way that people treat me, especially in the early game. Back to the meta that I hate, but relevant to mention here nonetheless… I was one of the most run up individuals on day one all of last year. This stemmed from my play, my inability to take my foot out of my mouth, and from the scum team’s excessive determination in making me the day one lynch. If you go back through several of the games from the last year, you will find me being run up day one just about EVERY time. From this I have learned to pick out the scum on the initial wagon fairly well.
@GJ- Brief paranoia was mitigated by the recent posts.
But to answer the Ghosting question, no, not townreading him.
We seem to have a lot of dichotomy flaring up as well. I just have such a sneaking suspicion that the scum are laughing at everyone while these Town vs. Town nonsense continues.
What dichotomy are you referring to?
I was referring to TS vs Tom mainly, but there were a few other feuds flaring up at the time, like Imab adding himself to the TS and Tom mix, and DV also going against TS.
Hey all
Back tonight with a giant post including T/Saturday list.
Looking forward to it.
Anybody feel like there's just a lot of words right now and not a lot of substance?
Yes and no. Clearly there is enough that you're ready for a flip of Necarg though, right?
Again, any questions people have for me let me know, but basically I'm ready for a flip of Necarg.
Sure, a few.
1) Biggest reason you want Necarg lynched?
2) Do you think Hawk's lack of contribution is indicative of his alignment? Do you think his play is town, scum, or null?
3) You previously said you think both Tom and TS are town. Do you still think this?
4) Nacho views you as a relatively town player. What would you say to him to convince him you definitely are town?
5) If you couldn't lynch Necarg today, who would be your next choice?
Thanks for being willing to reply to questions, we need some new faces in here, lol.
1) Because of his posting, lack of follow up, insincere posts (mostly the very early post that everyone had a problem with) and his general avoidance of anything today. Necarg hates day one’s, that’s well known, but not to the point of avoiding everything
2) I am leaning scum on Hawk at this point. I was thinking town earlier in the game, but not feeling that way now.
3) Yes, and I don’t think it’s going to change, certainly not today.
4) Give me until tomorrow.
5) You Ghosting. I don’t trust you. I don’t have any history to go on with you, but I feel like you are fishy.
its only tunneling if im wrong. otherwise, its nailing it.
youre sort of making it impossible not to though. refusing to acknowledge why i think youre scum.
and i apologize profusely for not remembering dota. i know hes been a huge part of this game and its unforgivable
that said, i did miss you talking about the contradiction since you framed it as a vague attack on robroy within a dota pbpa. my bad.
Its ok you got called out by the guy that isn't even reading the thread.
But don't worry hes going to make about 30 more references to what a great player he is.
This is flaming. Considering reporting this post as well. Took DV off ignore against my better judgement and turns out all I missed was him flaming/baiting trying to antagonize me without adding anything to the thread. Is it better fir me to discuss my concern straight with the council on this person or should I report the post directly to moderation? I doubt it is normal for two people to block one annoying player on day one.
Is he going to even play or read this game? Or does his role allow him just to sit back,and make personal attacks?
@MOD Do DV's last couple rude posts about me pass as not being rude and petty? I mean how does it help your game for him to make personal attacks against the other players?
I feel the need to insert myself into this. If you can’t take the heat TS, you need to step away from the fire man. Chill. You have been equally as inflammatory as DV was here. Even more so if you asked my opinion, but regardless, you should relax and focus on the game. If you keep being a sore sport than no one will want to play with you. If you are that offended, take it to the council, but don’t use it in game in order to try and win sympathy. Put on your big boy britches and get over it.
5) You Ghosting. I don’t trust you. I don’t have any history to go on with you, but I feel like you are fishy.
Can you tell me why you don't trust me? I understand that you think I'm fishy, but...what about me is fishy? What about me made you feel that way? Can you expand your read beyond a gut read? If not, can you explain your desire to lynch someone based on a gut read as you are implying is your second most ideal option?
I appreciate your answers, I'm glad we both agree on Hawk.
And to answer your question, I can't actually think of a reason you're scumreading me, hence me wanting you to further explain it. As of right now, I think you've just said it's a gut reaction? I don't really think there's much more to go on than that, but maybe you're trying to push for reactions on something? I'm not sure.
Also, would you be cool with telling us the similarities DoT has with this game and the one you were briefly scum with him in? That's awesome inside info that could definitely help us a lot. Is it not convincing enough for him to be further down your list? Even still, it'd be sweet if you could share that with us.
Hate to be posting so many times in a row, my apologies guys.
[b]@Huntzilla:[/b ]Rereading your post, I realise that you probably think I'm scum based on your sentence about me wondering if anyone is able to hear/communicate with spirits. I think this is actually a relatively sensible logic you're following, so I don't think you're reaching or just trying to paint me as scummy without reason. However, I was just trying to confirm a theory that players like Proph are actually still present, not totally dead. Again, definitely understand where you're coming from, but maybe this actually isn't why you think I'm scummy and you can correct me, lol.
Also, would you be cool with telling us the similarities DoT has with this game and the one you were briefly scum with him in? That's awesome inside info that could definitely help us a lot. Is it not convincing enough for him to be further down your list? Even still, it'd be sweet if you could share that with us.
We weren't scum together. He was scum in the Mafia V Wolves Classic, a game I happened to be in. His point there is poorly worded.
Read the Classic. TS and Imab were both town in that game and very similar in behaviour to this one. I have a very different way of interacting with people and their play style in that game and this one just rubs me the wrong way. I honestly think that neither of them see it though. For a particularly good example, look at the early argument between TS and OceansBlack. TS constantly accuses OB of personal attacks but also gets more personal the longer the argument goes on. I don't think TS is scum here, but I warn you that this doesn't get any better. Also, there were several times in Classic where TS asked others to ISO players or provide thoughts on them. Same as what we're seeing here.
Imab I'm still on the fence about. He outright lied about an investigative result in Classic (as vanilla town) to get Tom lynched. Tom was neutral in that game, but was town aligned. Might just be that he'll do anything to get his scum reads lynched. Not a great play, but that is how he is, and I think it'll make his scum game harder to catch since he acts scummy even when town.
Something I forgot to add: I lied (as town) in that game as well to save my ass from getting speed lynched. In hindsight I've realised that it was a mistake that almost got me lynched regardless and also distracted town from finding the real scum. Lesson learnt.
I have seen plenty of town lie. But this is just general jackassery. After reading through some of classic dear god. I just, I honestly feel like Ocean quit because of the treatment he received.
Yes, I know that this has gone both ways and is likely to go both ways, but comments like these contribute very heavily towards a toxic atmosphere and don't help anyone. Whenever you accuse someone of being such a jackass that they've essentially forced someone to quit, the natural response is anger; unless TS is a sociopath and specifically made it his goal in Classic to piss OB off (which I don't believe + OB was a massive ass in Classic as well), it wasn't his intention to drive OB away and accusing him of doing so is offensive. This also is clearly not what happened based on his replace out post, meaning that you're accusing TS of a terrible thing that actually wasn't truth. The natural response to this is get angry, and when people are angry, they are asses. This means that TS being an ass to you will only make you angrier than you are, and vicious circles happen.
I understand that your intention with this post is simply to vent, but this is not the place for that. The best possible way to diffuse the situation is to step away; don't respond to a post if you're angry writing it. If you need to take some time to ignore TS, sure, do that, but please make some effort to end this before it develops further.
/barn this. Yet anothdr person calling out DV for playing poorly.
leukovirus - This is the weakest of all of my reads in this group and would rather we lynch someone else in that group, but I don't think running him up today would be a bad play. I was OK with his push against Tom earlier, but after later review, this sort of looks like picking a side and choosing it (his case against Tom is "I don't like how you are pushing TS as scum over one simple question"). I really like his "no lynch is better than a mislynch" part of his #234 because it seems like such a strong copout, which is an especially large red flag because of how few reads he's actually given this game. The reason this read is so incredibly weak is due to the fact that he doesn't really have much mafia experience and didn't really do anything in Saw, but he also had a certain pluck about him in his push on Tom that he's been very strongly lacking here (except when correcting Bur on pronouns, which I don't think is relevant to the game).
Jobie - Almost did less than Darth_Melvin has! Which I don't think is relevant because he just got married. The thing he did that I didn't like was the easy read on Tom; don't think he'd do it so effortlessly if he was town and actually trying to figure out Tom's alignment.
Necarg - So, the original reason I was townreading him (he was having fun with the ability to edit posts) was bad. Tom correctly pointed out that it was a mirror to why I was townreading Hans, and I think that he'd have that kind of enjoyment of the ability to do something regardless of alignment; Necarg is not confident posting as scum, but it doesn't mean he loses all enjoyment of playing the game. I don't like his focus on the TS-Tom fight because it looks like scum taking advantage of town fighting town. I don't like the lurking, and I don't like how forced all of his posts have sounded past the first couple.
SCUM:
Hawk: - My biggest problem with Hawk is how much of a non-entity he's been; my experience with his town game has been someone who was constantly in the game, posting, game-solving. I don't like his initial push on Tom because of how nonsensical it was (I don't want to put too much pressure on Tom or he might implode and I'm pretty sure I can read him very easily, but here's a vote on him anyways), and I hate his complete lack of stance on anything now that his tom scumread has disappeared. This is probably the only lynch I 100% wouldn't pardon because he has a high enough chance of being scum where I wouldn't want to waste two days lynching him.
I knew when I saw this list I was impressed but also unnerved by it and I couldn't figure out why. But I realize that you're entire "willing to lynch" pool consists of people who are low posters or have had extensive v/la.
FOS: Nachomamma8
@Nachomamma8, I don't remember if you answered this but are you able to "governor" yourself?
leukovirus
Registered User
Member for 2 months and 3 days Last active 12 hours ago
Jobie
Registered User
Member for 11 years, 1 month, and 30 days Last active 3 minutes ago
7hawk77
Registered User
Member for 5 years, 9 months, and 25 days Last active 4 days ago
Necarg
Registered User
Member for 1 year, 6 months, and 22 days Last active 7 hours ago
7Hawk should not be a scumread. He's legit afk. Meanwhile I don't know what the hell Leukovirus and Necarg are doing, although it could be that Necarg is giving "thanks" and edits but I haven't looked yet. The real WTF is Jobie.
DV
RobRoy-Killjoy-DoTArchon
Tom-Nacho
Azreal-hansanator
tapping-Businessman
Tapping
everyone that thinks hes town
tom-DV-robroy-necarg
aka everyone that thinks hes scum
@hawk, anak, dota, gj, hans, jobie, kj, leuk, necarg, robroy: i would love a list like this from you guys.
especially kj and robroy, as you both seem to have strong opinions but just havent put them together.
@bur, DV, ghosting, imab, tapping: you have some information out there, but it needs updating/more players on it/whatever
Tom your list is false. You have no one as town reading me, yet IABM, Nacho, GJ, Ghosting Hunt and others are all town reading me on the record.
Why would you misrepresent the gamestate like that?
ummm... youre on nacho, hunt, and imab's town lists in my post. ghosting's most recent read list had you as lean scum, and gj hasnt posted a list.
why would you misrepresent the post right above yours?
Tom you don't understand.
You misrepresented his post.
It is posts like this that continue to make this game unplayable. DV clearly has no consideration for anyone else in this game. Nacho already very politely asked him to stop flaming. He also showed DV why is case against me was so bad.
DV is playing like OB did in MvW, except DV is even more toxic and is actively trying to make the name not fun for the rest of the playerbase. I loved the part where DV didnt address Nacho's points about why what he is doing is toxic and just incorrect from a strategy perspective.
Tom your list is false. You have no one as town reading me, yet IABM, Nacho, GJ, Ghosting Hunt and others are all town reading me on the record.
Why would you misrepresent the gamestate like that?
ummm... youre on nacho, hunt, and imab's town lists in my post. ghosting's most recent read list had you as lean scum, and gj hasnt posted a list.
why would you misrepresent the post right above yours?
Tom you don't understand.
You misrepresented his post.
It is posts like this that continue to make this game unplayable. DV clearly has no consideration for anyone else in this game. Nacho already very politely asked him to stop flaming. He also showed DV why is case against me was so bad.
DV is playing like OB did in MvW, except DV is even more toxic and is actively trying to make the name not fun for the rest of the playerbase. I loved the part where DV didnt address Nacho's points about why what he is doing is toxic and just incorrect from a strategy perspective.
You realize you are worse right? You must.
Calm down. Please for the love of god look in the mirror realize that you are worse.
Tom your list is false. You have no one as town reading me, yet IABM, Nacho, GJ, Ghosting Hunt and others are all town reading me on the record.
Why would you misrepresent the gamestate like that?
ummm... youre on nacho, hunt, and imab's town lists in my post. ghosting's most recent read list had you as lean scum, and gj hasnt posted a list.
why would you misrepresent the post right above yours?
Tom you don't understand.
You misrepresented his post.
It is posts like this that continue to make this game unplayable. DV clearly has no consideration for anyone else in this game. Nacho already very politely asked him to stop flaming. He also showed DV why is case against me was so bad.
DV is playing like OB did in MvW, except DV is even more toxic and is actively trying to make the name not fun for the rest of the playerbase. I loved the part where DV didnt address Nacho's points about why what he is doing is toxic and just incorrect from a strategy perspective.
You realize you are worse right? You must.
Calm down. Please for the love of god look in the mirror realize that you are worse.
HA! DV goes for the "no you are" defense! I expect you to respond to Nacho's criticism of you IN FULL. Not just avoiding the things that are damning to you. He explained pretty clearly why your play is toxic and just not very skillful. Eagerly awaiting you START READING THE GAME.
@tapping is that a "no" on posting a current list?
@Tom-What are you talking about?
I'm voting Necarg. I'm not posting a full T/S right now. Most of the players are barely playing. You and DV are not actually playing the game either, but that's another story.
ummm... youre on nacho, hunt, and imab's town lists in my post. ghosting's most recent read list had you as lean scum, and gj hasnt posted a list.
why would you misrepresent the post right above yours?
Tom you don't understand.
You misrepresented his post.
It is posts like this that continue to make this game unplayable. DV clearly has no consideration for anyone else in this game. Nacho already very politely asked him to stop flaming. He also showed DV why is case against me was so bad.
DV is playing like OB did in MvW, except DV is even more toxic and is actively trying to make the name not fun for the rest of the playerbase. I loved the part where DV didnt address Nacho's points about why what he is doing is toxic and just incorrect from a strategy perspective.
You realize you are worse right? You must.
Calm down. Please for the love of god look in the mirror realize that you are worse.
HA! DV goes for the "no you are" defense! I expect you to respond to Nacho's criticism of you IN FULL. Not just avoiding the things that are damning to you. He explained pretty clearly why your play is toxic and just not very skillful. Eagerly awaiting you START READING THE GAME.
You must really hate your life.
I'm sorry.
I really am. I am a toxic terrible player. The worst player in this game. What can I do to make amends for my crimes?
Public Mod Note
(Prophylaxis):
Warning for Trolling
ummm... youre on nacho, hunt, and imab's town lists in my post. ghosting's most recent read list had you as lean scum, and gj hasnt posted a list.
why would you misrepresent the post right above yours?
Tom you don't understand.
You misrepresented his post.
It is posts like this that continue to make this game unplayable. DV clearly has no consideration for anyone else in this game. Nacho already very politely asked him to stop flaming. He also showed DV why is case against me was so bad.
DV is playing like OB did in MvW, except DV is even more toxic and is actively trying to make the name not fun for the rest of the playerbase. I loved the part where DV didnt address Nacho's points about why what he is doing is toxic and just incorrect from a strategy perspective.
You realize you are worse right? You must.
Calm down. Please for the love of god look in the mirror realize that you are worse.
HA! DV goes for the "no you are" defense! I expect you to respond to Nacho's criticism of you IN FULL. Not just avoiding the things that are damning to you. He explained pretty clearly why your play is toxic and just not very skillful. Eagerly awaiting you START READING THE GAME.
Nacho didn't even give me anything to suggest that I change other than to stop flaming you he thinks I am town. What is damning to me?
Maybe its the alcohol from Trump winning but I am just not seeing it.
He never once told me that I was playing badly or used the word unskillful. Please quote the portion of anything he has said to suggest this. ":
ummm... youre on nacho, hunt, and imab's town lists in my post. ghosting's most recent read list had you as lean scum, and gj hasnt posted a list.
why would you misrepresent the post right above yours?
Tom you don't understand.
You misrepresented his post.
It is posts like this that continue to make this game unplayable. DV clearly has no consideration for anyone else in this game. Nacho already very politely asked him to stop flaming. He also showed DV why is case against me was so bad.
DV is playing like OB did in MvW, except DV is even more toxic and is actively trying to make the name not fun for the rest of the playerbase. I loved the part where DV didnt address Nacho's points about why what he is doing is toxic and just incorrect from a strategy perspective.
You realize you are worse right? You must.
Calm down. Please for the love of god look in the mirror realize that you are worse.
HA! DV goes for the "no you are" defense! I expect you to respond to Nacho's criticism of you IN FULL. Not just avoiding the things that are damning to you. He explained pretty clearly why your play is toxic and just not very skillful. Eagerly awaiting you START READING THE GAME.
Nacho didn't even give me anything to suggest that I change other than to stop flaming you he thinks I am town. What is damning to me?
Maybe its the alcohol from Trump winning but I am just not seeing it.
He never once told me that I was playing badly or used the word unskillful. Please quote the portion of anything he has said to suggest this. ":
can i ask why?
you hate being misrepped but consistently wont put your opinions out there out there or answer questions directed at you.
i mean, you realize youre one of the two most scumread people in the game, right? (pretty sure necarg is first, but its pretty close)
that cant change if you wont work with us here.
your list doesnt have to have everyone on it. just the people you have clear opinions on in your mind. even if its just nacho, imab, and ghosting in addition to the 4 i already know you think are scum
i'd also appreciate if you pointed me to where ghosting is "town reading me on the record" because i cant seem to find it, but thats not as big a deal
the closest i could find is
Quote from ghosting »
for now I have Tapping as less town and more scummy, but mostly in the middle.
which is not exactly town reading. but im sure ghosting will be here soon to clarify
It is posts like this that continue to make this game unplayable. DV clearly has no consideration for anyone else in this game. Nacho already very politely asked him to stop flaming. He also showed DV why is case against me was so bad.
DV is playing like OB did in MvW, except DV is even more toxic and is actively trying to make the name not fun for the rest of the playerbase. I loved the part where DV didnt address Nacho's points about why what he is doing is toxic and just incorrect from a strategy perspective.
You realize you are worse right? You must.
Calm down. Please for the love of god look in the mirror realize that you are worse.
HA! DV goes for the "no you are" defense! I expect you to respond to Nacho's criticism of you IN FULL. Not just avoiding the things that are damning to you. He explained pretty clearly why your play is toxic and just not very skillful. Eagerly awaiting you START READING THE GAME.
You must really hate your life.
I'm sorry.
I really am. I am a toxic terrible player. The worst player in this game. What can I do to make amends for my crimes?
@Robroy-Ahhh, Im supposed to tell you when Ive read your posts? There arent any questions in that post, there isnt anything particularly interesing for me to interact with either. You are continuing to use your.mistaken ideas about the word after against me.
I mean this is getting repetetive isnt it? You already summed it up when you said peopke are going to believe what I said was scum or town motivated. Got anything else?
So my talk about townie vs scum mindsets just sailed right past you?
There's actually still quite a bit of work to do, but Im happy to see what happens with Necarg here. I asked once and got no replies, so Ill ask once more, does anyone have a strong town read on Necarg?
I don't have a strong read of any kind. The editing is either an enforced PR or an effort to hide while still being active, and I don't feel like I have enough to go on either way. I will say, though, that the fact that he's promised content after re-reads and then not followed through is souring me on him.
With any luck Stargate will finish before our day two and then we PBPA Tom and people can help me case him based on Stargate. Should be pretty straight-forward once you read him in that game.
I'm not sure what you mean by this, unless you think it's a secret that he used to be The Cold Monarch... which is in his sig.
I have a voice in my head. We are one, at least for now. Nacho thinks he has figured out who, and I ask he wait. I am currently waiting for confirmation that she would be ok with that.
For the record, I didn't feel like anything Tapping said was a flame, or in any other way offensive. I will add my voice to those asking D_V to avoid comments on a personal level.
On the whole D_V avatar thing, I don't really understand why it's so important -- just because he might be lying, or am I missing something? For what it's worth, I definitely remember him changing his avatar, and it may have been more than once. But I wouldn't know for sure, and I think without any proof, it's a lot of squabbling that's only adding even more clutter to the friend, which I'm sure the immensely wasteful interactions are a huge reason for the disproportionate amount of activity among players here.
TL;DR:
imab: D_V changed his avatar back and forth, and his posting was different depending on the avatar!
D_V: LIAR! LIAR!
imab: Am not!
D_V: Are too!
imab: Am not!
D_V: Are too!
Everyone else: Hey, D_V, you changed your avatar once, right? And your posting style has evolved a bit, even if it hasn't been flip-floppy?
D_V: Yeah.
imab: Am not!
D_V: Are too!
imab: Am not!
D_V: Are too!
...
--
Just got up to Nacho's post 902, and will need longer than I have now to respond to that. Posting this, will return when I can.
But, something weird: 902 is at the top of page 19. On 50ppp, the first post of a page should end with a 1. Looking back, it seems that we do not have a post 839 in this game. @Necarg: was this you?
@Robroy-Ahhh, Im supposed to tell you when Ive read your posts? There arent any questions in that post, there isnt anything particularly interesing for me to interact with either. You are continuing to use your.mistaken ideas about the word after against me.
I mean this is getting repetetive isnt it? You already summed it up when you said peopke are going to believe what I said was scum or town motivated. Got anything else?
So my talk about townie vs scum mindsets just sailed right past you?
There's actually still quite a bit of work to do, but Im happy to see what happens with Necarg here. I asked once and got no replies, so Ill ask once more, does anyone have a strong town read on Necarg?
I don't have a strong read of any kind. The editing is either an enforced PR or an effort to hide while still being active, and I don't feel like I have enough to go on either way. I will say, though, that the fact that he's promised content after re-reads and then not followed through is souring me on him.
With any luck Stargate will finish before our day two and then we PBPA Tom and people can help me case him based on Stargate. Should be pretty straight-forward once you read him in that game.
I'm not sure what you mean by this, unless you think it's a secret that he used to be The Cold Monarch... which is in his sig.
I have a voice in my head. We are one, at least for now. Nacho thinks he has figured out who, and I ask he wait. I am currently waiting for confirmation that she would be ok with that.
For the record, I didn't feel like anything Tapping said was a flame, or in any other way offensive. I will add my voice to those asking D_V to avoid comments on a personal level.
On the whole D_V avatar thing, I don't really understand why it's so important -- just because he might be lying, or am I missing something? For what it's worth, I definitely remember him changing his avatar, and it may have been more than once. But I wouldn't know for sure, and I think without any proof, it's a lot of squabbling that's only adding even more clutter to the friend, which I'm sure the immensely wasteful interactions are a huge reason for the disproportionate amount of activity among players here.
TL;DR:
imab: D_V changed his avatar back and forth, and his posting was different depending on the avatar!
D_V: LIAR! LIAR!
imab: Am not!
D_V: Are too!
imab: Am not!
D_V: Are too!
Everyone else: Hey, D_V, you changed your avatar once, right? And your posting style has evolved a bit, even if it hasn't been flip-floppy?
D_V: Yeah.
imab: Am not!
D_V: Are too!
imab: Am not!
D_V: Are too!
...
--
Just got up to Nacho's post 902, and will need longer than I have now to respond to that. Posting this, will return when I can.
But, something weird: 902 is at the top of page 19. On 50ppp, the first post of a page should end with a 1. Looking back, it seems that we do not have a post 839 in this game. @Necarg: was this you?
Also, would you be cool with telling us the similarities DoT has with this game and the one you were briefly scum with him in? That's awesome inside info that could definitely help us a lot. Is it not convincing enough for him to be further down your list? Even still, it'd be sweet if you could share that with us.
We weren't scum together. He was scum in the Mafia V Wolves Classic, a game I happened to be in. His point there is poorly worded.
Holy *****. I'm sorry Dota, I actually confused you with Etr.
Ugh, my read on Dota is shattered. Back to the drawing board.
Hate to be posting so many times in a row, my apologies guys.
[b]@Huntzilla:[/b ]Rereading your post, I realise that you probably think I'm scum based on your sentence about me wondering if anyone is able to hear/communicate with spirits. I think this is actually a relatively sensible logic you're following, so I don't think you're reaching or just trying to paint me as scummy without reason. However, I was just trying to confirm a theory that players like Proph are actually still present, not totally dead. Again, definitely understand where you're coming from, but maybe this actually isn't why you think I'm scummy and you can correct me, lol.
Yes, that is a large part. It's also part gut. I will attempt to think about the words I want to use to describe why and get back to you soon.
@imab: you have some information out there, but it needs updating/more players on it/whatever
Updated reads...
Town.
Killjoy, RobRoy, Tappingstones, Huntzilla
Leans town
Gentleman Johnny
Leans scum
Ghosting, Nachomamma8
Scum
Anaklusmos, Bur, DotArchon
I would be fine with lynching Jobie or leukovirus even though they're null.
How about Tom? Lean scum or just scum?
I've upgraded tom to null. The only reason why I was even suspicious of him is because of his style. Came to that realization after reading Saw Mafia. Tom needs to be read based on substance not style. But it's hard to separate. Especially having to be on the receiving end of his tunnel vision. That crap is frustrating but no necessarily scummy for him.
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The question that TS missed in particular was the one in your 616.
This question was this:
First of all, I don't understand why TS as scum would feel the need to dodge a question about one hypothetical case compared to another. Second of all, you're absolutely correct, TS didn't answer this question, but I don't think his assertion of never dodging the subject (assuming that the subject is talk of how to use my governor) is not incorrect at all: TS has been focusing on the best way to use my governor ability before most other players, and hasn't exactly shied away from how he thinks it should be used best.
For one, what 606 said was that TS had a few ideas for people he'd like to reveal. This does not mean that he currently endorses the reveal Nacho plan; by the time of 606, the only reason wasn't voting Tomsloger was because he didn't trust the votecount 390. Earlier, when he was specifically pushing for me to reveal, he was voting Necarg.
In 689, TS's response was this:
After I confirmed it was a mod reveal, TS was thinking through how to use my ability (this lines up with his actions). Given that this is a mindscrew, he's like (present thoughts) to use my ability is a fail safe.
I understand that your question here was "when did you change your mind?" which wasn't a question that received a direct answer, but TS wasn't saying that he changed his mind when I confirmed the mod reveal, he was saying that he started thinking it through after I confirmed the mod reveal.
What I see happening more here is a breakdown in communication more than you catching TS as scum and him lying to cover his tracks. For one, I don't believe that scum players are compulsive liars: scum lie for a reason, and I don't see why TS would lie about these things specifically. Secondly, I see that he's ignored your questions and I understand why that's frustrating, but, again, I'm 90% sure that TS as scum wouldn't ignore questions because they scared him too much.
I've spent a lot of time trying to phrase and rephrase why I think there's just a particularly bad case of communication breakdown here (starting with TS assuming that my power would be used today and you assuming that TS's plan was to have me govern), but instead I'm streamlining a bit here to make it a bit more organized and readable - let me know if you'd like me to expand on anything specific.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Yes, I know that this has gone both ways and is likely to go both ways, but comments like these contribute very heavily towards a toxic atmosphere and don't help anyone. Whenever you accuse someone of being such a jackass that they've essentially forced someone to quit, the natural response is anger; unless TS is a sociopath and specifically made it his goal in Classic to piss OB off (which I don't believe + OB was a massive ass in Classic as well), it wasn't his intention to drive OB away and accusing him of doing so is offensive. This also is clearly not what happened based on his replace out post, meaning that you're accusing TS of a terrible thing that actually wasn't truth. The natural response to this is get angry, and when people are angry, they are asses. This means that TS being an ass to you will only make you angrier than you are, and vicious circles happen.
I understand that your intention with this post is simply to vent, but this is not the place for that. The best possible way to diffuse the situation is to step away; don't respond to a post if you're angry writing it. If you need to take some time to ignore TS, sure, do that, but please make some effort to end this before it develops further.
Its not just Rob though.
Its me, its Tom. Its anyone who challenges him. I'm sorry, but there are so many inconsistencies in what he says. I agree that scum don't necessarily lie, but this something else its so many of these things and then him yelling misrep. Stop defending him with the argument of "I don't see how a scum player does this", because that just isn't an argument in this case.
Hes lying about his intentions and saying that anyone who challenges him is misreping him. But to me this is just bold scum behavior, he did it once and got a pass, now he knows he can just make up what ever he wants and people are going to give him his free pass. This is how I interpret this behavior. And I also find this argument silly, because you are assuming he is playing correctly. He isn't he hasn't read the thread and he has proven this he makes sweeping remarks. And for example with me he just says things that are not true then says i am not reading the thread.
@nacho would you be willing to reveal TS' alignment for today?
if he is town, you remove a significant amount of the conflict in the game. and if he is scum, awesome.
Lets wait to see what Azreal has to say first. But, I might be ok with this.
Ghosting, while I completely understand your mindset here (I too tried interacting with hawk in this way), I don't think it's the way to play this early in the day. I'd argue that while there has been a pretty large amount of content dropped on the thread, there's also been a lot of noise: a lot of what's happening right now is mostly just spinning wheels, especially if you (like I do) believe that all the hot topics of conversation are very likely town.
Now is the time to move forward. I believe that most players have crossed the type of lines that they don't cross unless the emotion they are feeling is genuine (DV's attacks on TS, TS's attack on DV back), and I don't believe that they are scum feeling these emotions because the arguments all started with "you lied about my posts", and I don't think scum get so offended over posts being misrepresented, misconstrued. If you think that Hawk might be scum (which is sort of what this post is implying), but a vote on him (but actually Tom). I am perfectly willing to lynch but if you'd rather me reveal Hawk as opposed to letting him die well that's fine too.
Seconding this.
The entire reason I read that game was because your roleplaying was hilarious
The question that always comes up in the face of something like this is why on earth would IMAB lie about that for a scum advantage? The only thing it does, as far as I can see, is get you to read him as scum (not helpful), or gets the two of you to get in a weird fight for the rest of the game (don't think this is his strategy as scum).
Oh!
Tom, why did you think that TS was originally calling you a scum-aligned neutral?
I'm not sure I currently have the heart to kill Necarg after a day of rereading. I keep running into random posts he's editing/liking, and I completely understand why it might be difficult for someone to keep up with this particular game (there is a crap ton of content/words/feelings) to sift through, and I like that he's at least making the effort to do so. I, of course, don't mind revealing him, but currently feel we have a better chance at hitting scum in Hawk/Jobie.
This particular point is weak, Tom. Yes, TS's theory is a bit strange but it's also just an errant theory and not something that's been fully developed and you've had dumb theories before yourself. We all have.
Well, the significant marker for Tom being town (and people in general, really) that I look for is depth of thought. Tom has had a lot of fully fleshed out reads on a number of players that shows that he's paying attention to the game and thinking about it. His recent Necarg thought is an example of that: it's one that I was holding as I was catching up and noticed Tom also had it. His hansanator read quietly going stale is another example: if tom was scum, he would have to downgrade Hans consciously and would likely make a comment about it but I liked how that didn't happen. I liked his DV read; his role reasons were pretty understandable. I liked his read on me; his reasons for slotting me as town (his role-related reasons, no less) were pretty reasonable considering past experience and is something a couple of more experienced players didn't really catch. It takes a truly talented scum player (not just one who is willing to put in effort) to be able to fake something like this to the point of being townread for depth of thought and depth of thought alone, and I'm not sure he's talented enough to fake something like that.
On the flip side of things, I feel like one of his weaknesses as town is that he lets himself get carried away with reads and doesn't necessarily know how to read the signals he gets back; when he tries to specifically read a player, he analyzes too many things and flips the cards too many times and his accuracy suffers as a result, if that makes sense. I'd love to provide some harder details about some things I've learned about him, but cannot for obvious reason, but the short of it is that the reads he focuses on the least are the reads that tend to be the most insightful and the strongest reads as town but this isn't the case when he's scum.
Does this make sense at all?
If you don't understand why a person is doing what they are doing, then it's very likely that your read on them is not great. This is a game about understanding intention: if you don't understand their intention, you don't understand anything. I feel like TS has a tendency to respond by accusing people of misrepresenting him before attempting to resolve communication issues: this is a spot where he could improve in play, but it's not alignment indicative.
I haven't found TS lying about his intentions: I've been shown TS "lying" that IMAB was right about you changing your avatar multiple times, I've been shown TS "lying" about avoiding talking about situations and answering questions. I haven't found TS lying about his intentions. If you want me on your side, show me that.
Your theory that TS discovered he can lie and get away with it and is now lying for no other reason than he is scum is not a compelling one; I don't believe people lie because they are scum; people lie because those lies benefit them as scum. Show me how those lies benefit TS as scum.
As for the reading the thread part, TS has shown an understanding of certain situations that clearly demonstrate he is reading the thread. He has misinterpreted other situations. I'd also say this about myself, RobRoy, and Tom.
I'd love to reveal his alignment for the day, but I'm not currently convinced it will remove conflict unless both sides back off each other a bit; this situation clearly runs deeper than "I think he is scum and I'm mad at him as a result".
that would be crazy.
plus TS is an omgus machine so it may remove as much as double the amount of probably false scumreads.
Ignoring people in a game makes it more difficult to read that player, yes. Responding to a player when you can't separate from their posts emotionally also makes it more difficult to objectively read a player. Sometimes separating yourself is the lesser of two evils.
Yes, like that.
The point I was making was referring to his mindset as a whole. The quoted above is just a piece of that.
You know.
As a personal favor for a bro.
Also keep posting so I don't triple post? Phone is dying but I'd like to catch up before it is dead and don't want to wallpost on phone.
I want this day to die a good death, yes.
I am caught up, I will maybe respond to things later.
Vote: Tomsloger
Apologies, I meant to post this.
Please vote TS or Hawk or Jobie or Necarg. Hawk and Jobie are scum. We can kill them. Necarg has support. TS is not scum but revealing his alignment may be the beginning of a healing process.
Choose, please.
1) 7hawk77 (1) -
2) Anaklusmos (0) - iambusinessman, Gentleman Johnny
3) Bur (2) -
4) Darth Melvin (0) -
6) DoTArchon (0) -
7) Gentleman Johnny (0) -
8) Ghosting (0) -
9) hansanator (0) -
10) Huntzilla (0) -
11) Jobie (0) - Anaklusmos
12) iambusinessman (1) -
13) Killjoy (0) -
14) leukovirus (0) -
15) Nachomamma8 (0) - Huntzilla, TappingStones
16) Necarg (2) -
18) RobRoy (0) - tomsloger, Deaths_Vampire
19) TappingStones (2) - RobRoy
20) tomsloger (1) - Nachomamma8
Not Voting (12) - 7hawk77, Bur, Darth Melvin, DoTArchon, Ghosting, hansanator, Jobie, Killjoy, leukovirus, Necarg
@robroy i understand not wanting to vote for yourself, but i believe thats where you want to be.
@tare is jobie and imab not being alphabetical intentional?
I've had Necarg as leaning scum since post #246.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
TOWN:
Tomsloger - I don’t think Tom can possibly fake this level of indignation as scum.
imabusinessman - This is Imab, and again, I don’t feel like he would be as vocal and obstinate if he were scum.
D_V- I have generally liked his posts and have agreed with several of his points. I have not agreed with his conclusions fully, but I like his attempts at solving the game.
TappingStones - Again, this just sounds and looks like the same old Tapping. The fight between the above four is some of the most obvious town vs town fighting I have seen. They all believe themselves to be right, and NONE more so than TS.
Nacho - Nacho probably reads me the best out of players in the game. I truly feel he would have tried to use this to get me lynched if he were scum.
KillJoy – Killjoy is shaking off the ring rust like I mentioned earlier. His questions are great and I have followed his thought process
RobRoy - I have been loving RobRoy’s posts lately. They seem genuine and involved and the content reads true.
Bur – I am giving Bur the benefit of the doubt right now, as I have yet to see a few of the scum traits I look for with him. His availability is the only thing holding this back a level of towniness. I will have this solidified as the game goes on…
Hansanator – Hansa’s early stuff was classic Hansa. Waiting on the game to progress before I strengthen this read.
Anaklusmos - Feeling confident that Anak will also be more revealing as time goes on, but nothing has jumped out at me today as being overtly scummy.
Gentleman Johnny – I had a brief moment of real paranoia around my last post where I was feeling like GJ had duped me, but his string of posts over the last few days has been great, plus I trust Nacho’s assessment of him.
Darth_Melvin - Who? Oh, right…
Jobie - Waiting on Jobie to post some more, but I know the feeling of being newly married. It has been most of the reason I have been less active over the last 6 months. I do worry that it could be Jobie being upset over rolling another non-town role. Got my eye on him.
leukovirus - Similarly, waiting on more from leuko, but I have my eye on him as well. Have a gut read on what I have read that puts Leuko as lean scum.
DoTArchon - I was BRIEFLY scum with Dota in MvW, but I was able to read the thread and the scum qt the whole game, which let me have an in on Dota’s playstyle. I am seeing some similarities here, but again, watching until more info comes to light.
Hawk – Trusting my town blocks reads here. I could get behind his lynch today.
SCUM:
Ghosting – I’m actually curious… @Ghosting, why do YOU think I am scumreading you?
Necarg - We’ve gone over this.
Brief musings::::::
Az I doubt has an alignment. I think we could call him “neutral” for lack of a better term, as he has absolutely made it known that he is not town, and not scum, and is fine with playing both sides in order to keep himself “alive.” Again, alive is a loosely used term here, as he is not exactly a part of the mafia portion of this game. We don’t know how he “dies” or leaves the game, nor do I frankly care. I think our efforts are better focused on scum hunting and not looking at the shiny objects put in front of us to distract us from that end.
Can everyone, pretty please, stop talking about current ongoing games. I have seen all kinds of references to DIFFERENT ongoing games. Please. Stop...
I ask everyone, what do you think the scum are chasing in this game? The higher complexity games often add things the scum team need to figure out on their own or chase down, mostly to help even the playing field some. This game being probably the most convoluted and complex game most of us have ever played (don’t want to speak for the veterans out there), there MUST be something that the scum team are searching for. Whether that’s a neutral-aligned player, some kind of town role they have knowledge of, another scum team, some kind of “cookie” the mod gave them to chase, or any of a million other possibilities; I feel we should also be on the lookout for these kind of tells. So far I have seen TS mention the neutral alignment of Tom, which adds some scum points his way; Ghosting has searched for “others who can speak to voices” or however it might have been phrased; a couple players mentioned the possibility of killing off Az (I think Tom, and someone else?); and a few other nuggets of non-scum hunting. Anyone else have an example to add to the pile? These tells are something for us to pay attention to moving forward, especially after we get a scum flip.
A couple notes about my play: I hate Meta, though I acknowledge its importance in the game; and I also subscribe to the method TS and Nacho mentioned earlier. I pay attention to the way that people treat me, especially in the early game. Back to the meta that I hate, but relevant to mention here nonetheless… I was one of the most run up individuals on day one all of last year. This stemmed from my play, my inability to take my foot out of my mouth, and from the scum team’s excessive determination in making me the day one lynch. If you go back through several of the games from the last year, you will find me being run up day one just about EVERY time. From this I have learned to pick out the scum on the initial wagon fairly well.
@GJ- Brief paranoia was mitigated by the recent posts.
But to answer the Ghosting question, no, not townreading him.
I was referring to TS vs Tom mainly, but there were a few other feuds flaring up at the time, like Imab adding himself to the TS and Tom mix, and DV also going against TS.
I’m off. I feel comfortable letting Nacho figure out his own role usage.
You missed a question from me back on page 15 I believe.
1) Because of his posting, lack of follow up, insincere posts (mostly the very early post that everyone had a problem with) and his general avoidance of anything today. Necarg hates day one’s, that’s well known, but not to the point of avoiding everything
2) I am leaning scum on Hawk at this point. I was thinking town earlier in the game, but not feeling that way now.
3) Yes, and I don’t think it’s going to change, certainly not today.
4) Give me until tomorrow.
5) You Ghosting. I don’t trust you. I don’t have any history to go on with you, but I feel like you are fishy.
No problem. I like answering questions.
I feel the need to insert myself into this. If you can’t take the heat TS, you need to step away from the fire man. Chill. You have been equally as inflammatory as DV was here. Even more so if you asked my opinion, but regardless, you should relax and focus on the game. If you keep being a sore sport than no one will want to play with you. If you are that offended, take it to the council, but don’t use it in game in order to try and win sympathy. Put on your big boy britches and get over it.
Can you tell me why you don't trust me? I understand that you think I'm fishy, but...what about me is fishy? What about me made you feel that way? Can you expand your read beyond a gut read? If not, can you explain your desire to lynch someone based on a gut read as you are implying is your second most ideal option?
I appreciate your answers, I'm glad we both agree on Hawk.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
[b]@Huntzilla:[/b ]Rereading your post, I realise that you probably think I'm scum based on your sentence about me wondering if anyone is able to hear/communicate with spirits. I think this is actually a relatively sensible logic you're following, so I don't think you're reaching or just trying to paint me as scummy without reason. However, I was just trying to confirm a theory that players like Proph are actually still present, not totally dead. Again, definitely understand where you're coming from, but maybe this actually isn't why you think I'm scummy and you can correct me, lol.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Even still, he said he got to read the scum qt, and if he says he sees similarities, I definitely at least want to hear what they are.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
/barn this. Yet anothdr person calling out DV for playing poorly.
I knew when I saw this list I was impressed but also unnerved by it and I couldn't figure out why. But I realize that you're entire "willing to lynch" pool consists of people who are low posters or have had extensive v/la.
FOS: Nachomamma8
@Nachomamma8, I don't remember if you answered this but are you able to "governor" yourself?
7Hawk should not be a scumread. He's legit afk. Meanwhile I don't know what the hell Leukovirus and Necarg are doing, although it could be that Necarg is giving "thanks" and edits but I haven't looked yet. The real WTF is Jobie.
Tomsloger-imabusinessman-D_V-TappingStones-Nacho
KillJoy-RobRoy
Bur-Hansanator-Anaklusmos-Gentleman Johnny
Darth_Melvin
Jobie-leukovirus-DoTArchon-Hawk
Ghosting-Necarg
Ghosting-Tomsloger-iamabusinessman-D_V-TappingStones-Gentleman Johnny
KillJoy-RobRoy-Bur
Huntzilla-Hansanator-Anaklusmos
Darth_Melvin
DoTArchon-leukovirus-Jobie-Necarg
Hawk
DV-robroy
ghosting-hans-kj-nacho
bur-johnny-huntz-anak-hawk-leukovirus-imab
dota-necarg
tapping
Killjoy-tomsloger
hansanator-Huntzilla-RobRoy-TappingStones
7hawk77-Anaklusmos-Darth Melvin-DoTArchon-Ghosting-jobie-leukovirus-Nachomamma8
Gentleman Johnny-iamabusinessman-Necarg
no one?
tapping
Nachomamma8-Ghosting-tomsloger
Bur-DoTArchon-Anaklusmos
tom, gj
tapping
imab
RobRoy-Killjoy-DoTArchon
Tom-Nacho
Azreal-hansanator
tapping-Businessman
everyone that thinks hes town
tom-DV-robroy-necarg
aka everyone that thinks hes scum
@hawk, anak, dota, gj, hans, jobie, kj, leuk, necarg, robroy: i would love a list like this from you guys.
especially kj and robroy, as you both seem to have strong opinions but just havent put them together.
@bur, DV, ghosting, imab, tapping: you have some information out there, but it needs updating/more players on it/whatever
Why would you misrepresent the gamestate like that?
why would you misrepresent the post right above yours?
I am really tired of being flamed.
Tom you don't understand.
You misrepresented his post.
It is posts like this that continue to make this game unplayable. DV clearly has no consideration for anyone else in this game. Nacho already very politely asked him to stop flaming. He also showed DV why is case against me was so bad.
DV is playing like OB did in MvW, except DV is even more toxic and is actively trying to make the name not fun for the rest of the playerbase. I loved the part where DV didnt address Nacho's points about why what he is doing is toxic and just incorrect from a strategy perspective.
You realize you are worse right? You must.
Calm down. Please for the love of god look in the mirror realize that you are worse.
HA! DV goes for the "no you are" defense! I expect you to respond to Nacho's criticism of you IN FULL. Not just avoiding the things that are damning to you. He explained pretty clearly why your play is toxic and just not very skillful. Eagerly awaiting you START READING THE GAME.
@Tom-What are you talking about?
I'm voting Necarg. I'm not posting a full T/S right now. Most of the players are barely playing. You and DV are not actually playing the game either, but that's another story.
You must really hate your life.
I'm sorry.
I really am. I am a toxic terrible player. The worst player in this game. What can I do to make amends for my crimes?
Nacho didn't even give me anything to suggest that I change other than to stop flaming you he thinks I am town. What is damning to me?
Maybe its the alcohol from Trump winning but I am just not seeing it.
He never once told me that I was playing badly or used the word unskillful. Please quote the portion of anything he has said to suggest this. ":
I just don't get what has made you so angry.
Nacho didn't even give me anything to suggest that I change other than to stop flaming you he thinks I am town. What is damning to me?
Maybe its the alcohol from Trump winning but I am just not seeing it.
He never once told me that I was playing badly or used the word unskillful. Please quote the portion of anything he has said to suggest this. ":
I just don't get what has made you so angry.
you hate being misrepped but consistently wont put your opinions out there out there or answer questions directed at you.
i mean, you realize youre one of the two most scumread people in the game, right? (pretty sure necarg is first, but its pretty close)
that cant change if you wont work with us here.
your list doesnt have to have everyone on it. just the people you have clear opinions on in your mind. even if its just nacho, imab, and ghosting in addition to the 4 i already know you think are scum
i'd also appreciate if you pointed me to where ghosting is "town reading me on the record" because i cant seem to find it, but thats not as big a deal
the closest i could find is which is not exactly town reading. but im sure ghosting will be here soon to clarify
I love my life don't project your feelings on me.
So my talk about townie vs scum mindsets just sailed right past you?
I don't have a strong read of any kind. The editing is either an enforced PR or an effort to hide while still being active, and I don't feel like I have enough to go on either way. I will say, though, that the fact that he's promised content after re-reads and then not followed through is souring me on him.
No discussing games in progress, please.
Still disagree. Read my 838. Tapping was inconsistent in his opinions, which is a very strong scum-tell.
Ah, right. Thanks.
For the record, I didn't feel like anything Tapping said was a flame, or in any other way offensive. I will add my voice to those asking D_V to avoid comments on a personal level.
TL;DR:
imab: D_V changed his avatar back and forth, and his posting was different depending on the avatar!
D_V: LIAR! LIAR!
imab: Am not!
D_V: Are too!
imab: Am not!
D_V: Are too!
Everyone else: Hey, D_V, you changed your avatar once, right? And your posting style has evolved a bit, even if it hasn't been flip-floppy?
D_V: Yeah.
imab: Am not!
D_V: Are too!
imab: Am not!
D_V: Are too!
...
--
Just got up to Nacho's post 902, and will need longer than I have now to respond to that. Posting this, will return when I can.
But, something weird: 902 is at the top of page 19. On 50ppp, the first post of a page should end with a 1. Looking back, it seems that we do not have a post 839 in this game. @Necarg: was this you?
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
robroy lean town
Updated reads...
Town.
Killjoy, RobRoy, Tappingstones, Huntzilla
Leans town
Gentleman Johnny
Leans scum
Ghosting, Nachomamma8
Scum
Anaklusmos, Bur, DotArchon
I would be fine with lynching Jobie or leukovirus even though they're null.
How about Tom? Lean scum or just scum?
Holy *****. I'm sorry Dota, I actually confused you with Etr.
Ugh, my read on Dota is shattered. Back to the drawing board.
Yes, that is a large part. It's also part gut. I will attempt to think about the words I want to use to describe why and get back to you soon.
I've upgraded tom to null. The only reason why I was even suspicious of him is because of his style. Came to that realization after reading Saw Mafia. Tom needs to be read based on substance not style. But it's hard to separate. Especially having to be on the receiving end of his tunnel vision. That crap is frustrating but no necessarily scummy for him.