its only tunneling if im wrong. otherwise, its nailing it.
youre sort of making it impossible not to though. refusing to acknowledge why i think youre scum.
and i apologize profusely for not remembering dota. i know hes been a huge part of this game and its unforgivable
that said, i did miss you talking about the contradiction since you framed it as a vague attack on robroy within a dota pbpa. my bad.
Its ok you got called out by the guy that isn't even reading the thread.
But don't worry hes going to make about 30 more references to what a great player he is.
its only tunneling if im wrong. otherwise, its nailing it.
youre sort of making it impossible not to though. refusing to acknowledge why i think youre scum.
and i apologize profusely for not remembering dota. i know hes been a huge part of this game and its unforgivable
that said, i did miss you talking about the contradiction since you framed it as a vague attack on robroy within a dota pbpa. my bad.
Apparently you dont understand what tunneling means...
Tom you posted that you were down for a DOTA lynch, but you didnt even know why. How would town ever be in that situation? Honest question, Im not even trying to play gottcha this time. How do you get to a place where you are just throwing out names for a lynch?
Reading through your previous town gamed I noticed you were MUCH more vocal about getting lurkers involved, here it feels cursory. What's with the change?
not didnt know why, couldnt remember why. pretty important difference.
hes been real forgettable bro.
now would you like to answer any of my questions? like, ever?
straight up, i would love to townread you. that would make you significantly nicer to me and probably change your opinion of me.
but you are absolutely making it impossible.
why am i neutral? why did you phrase it that way? do you think hans is hard to read? did you not realize hans couldnt answer your questions without revealing his role? how am i inconsistent/not trying to solve the game?
some of these questions are 12 pages old.
I agree with Tom here, you seem to be fishing hard for role info. If you were hard scum reading me in the MvW game for role speculating, why are you doing the same here? And how can you be certain it's an X-shot ability?
So here’s DOTA’s first step out of the aether. I’m not going to revive the whole role fishing argument because we’ve gone through that already. I was adamant in my defense that my probes were not about role-information but motivations and alignments. Motivations are the thing that motivates me to try and read players and I think it’s an interesting skill that I’m trying to improve. Some people thought I was role-fishing others saw it from my perspective.
In regards to the MvW game I didn’t consistently scum read DOTA though I did scum read him through different parts of the game somewhat based on his in game mistakes like role blocking our governor on a night where it seemed he would use our known “vig shot”. It seems like a real stretch to say I was “hardscum-reading" him based on role-fishing. I spoke up about his role fishing and said it was scummy but there are a lot of things I called him out on. He fessed up to some of the strange blunders and even at one point mentioned he would take the blame for a town loss, which I can appreciate the sentiment of. In the end he and I were town together even though we suspected each other on and off throughout the game.
I never once said or made a statement of the nature that Hans had an x-shot ability. I believe Bur asked me about one-shot, multi shot and I discussed the merits, likelihood of either but never said it was multi shot.
I'm back. I've been trying to keep up with the game but have no notes beyond my V/LA post so want to reread before I post any further thoughts. For now:
Unvote
P.S. Proph kill sucked. Want to look into that.
If you have a look at Shia Mafia you'll notice I did the same thing. I'd been skimming both games for a few days and unvoted to get a clearer picture of what was happening with my scum reads before voting again.
This unvote is cleverly placed if DOTA is trying to back off. Kind of reminds of someone who jumps into a family argument and as things get more heated the person slowly and quietly steps backward hoping no one notices them leaving the room. Been trying to keep up with the game but no notes. Wants to reread before continuing. Why does that require an unvote? If he hadn’t gotten caught up why would he think his current vote is poorly placed? As I mentioned the placement between catchup comment and random weird comment about Proph death. Not a mention of why I’m not scummy enough to be voted anymore. Why does the Proph death suck?
I liked Proph for town and the kill came out of nowhere, leaving us guessing what had happened. So yes, it sucked. I'll respond to the rest in more detail at the end of the post.
Lynching the Mao role on MS 1 fixed the vote count discrepancies and revealed the rules/deadlines etc.
How does everyone feel about running Az up for Nacho to pardon? I think we could gain a lot of information from revealing his role in this game.
I’m not saying this post is bad. I don’t mind that he was thinking about the reveal plan, I’m more wondering why he would want to first go after someone he thinks might give us more rules/deadline info? Sure, that info would be helpful, but killing scum is likely the most helpful thing you can do.
Some of that paranoia from MvW carried over, I mean, Nacho gets governor 2 games in a row? As he posted more in the thread though I realised I was being silly, it's a ballsy claim to make when it's so easily disproven.
I agree with RobRoy, I was against Nacho being forced into using his ability in Classic and I'm against it here.
@TS
Quote from TappingStones »
You let me worry about Tom
Can you clarify this statement for me
Interesting, when i came around to this Robroy wanted to jump down my throat. No attack from Robroy on DOTA for the sudden change.
These remarks/questions, to me, just reaks of busy work . Why do you need this clarified DOTA? Do you have any interest in Tom? How about you let us know what’s going on in that head of yours? Is Necarg suspicious because he agreed with your read on me?
I'd like some clarity on the statement since, if you're right and Tom is scum, then he's everyone's problem and not just yours. Seemed like an odd thing to say and I wanted to hear more from you on it.
Forgot to add: I was looking at some of the older Mind Screw setups and I noticed that the Mao player could send a message to Tar, which Tar would then post in thread. These posts always started with the statement 'Point of order!'. One of three possibilities:
1. Same applies in this game and any posts from Tar that start with Poimt of order can be ignored as deliberately misleading/false (apart from red text within those posts maybe?)
2. The opposite applies here as a way to screw with anyone who reads the old games, and only those posts are actually Tar.
3. Neither applies and he's doing it just to screw with us.
Could be that DOTA likes figuring out the rules but this is just another blank post to me. I mean, I want town to put out some reads and tell me why. Even if I disagree at least we can argue about it and try to hash things out. DOTA let’s talk about how we are going to reach the win con which is kill all the scum.
Don't you think it's in towns best interest to know that there might be posts from our mod that are coming from scum? Could be useful in finding scum if a pattern emerges, could not be. Was an interesting twist I found in one of the previous MS games that could apply here as well. As for scumhunting, you were in MvW with me and I urge you to read the Tracker game if you haven't already. I'm terrible at scum hunting. I'm trying to improve on that but it's not going to happen with me throwing every thought that crosses my mind into the thread because that just causes problems for me and for the town. There's more to this but it'll be at the end of the post.
Mind telling why you are against Nacho using his ability? (Quote or something from the Classics is fine.)
In Classic it was early in day 1 and I got into N argument with Rodemy about forcing Nacho to use his Govern and end the day with a no lynch. As the game progressed I got paranoid of the fact that he hadn't proven his claim and yet everyone considered him confirmed town. My paranoia was misplaced and he successfully managed on several occasions to direct town away from mislynching. I'm happy to leave the decision in his hands.
I like this post. I think it’s a solid defense. He references what happened in that game in a truthful way and it feels relevant here.
Quote from D_V »
Unvote Vote RobRoy(Redirect to TS)
I probably should have moved my vote over a long time ago.
I can't tell if hes just a bad new player, or just playing badly or I don't know. Right now though it feels really scummy to me.
TS is clearly not reading the thread all the way and picking and choosing what they answers. TS has no idea what mechanics are in place. The word misrep has been used about 2 Trillion times and I don't think they even know what that word means.
I am going to go read the Tom, TS interactions but I have a feeling I am just going to get angry because TS. One of these day TS will answer 685. As my side comment I am convinced that this makes Businessman scummy too, because TS is literally riding him. With +1 for being Town comments and WOW I'm so smart so is Businessman comments. I am going to go back and read, but my current assumption of his play of all his posts are,
1) Comments that don't make sense because he references things that are silly(Such as me "Blind voting" Jobie.
2) I'm so smart posts.
The more I read and the more I remember how well we did in classic eventually lead me to think this is better.
3) WOW YOU misrep ME BRA posts.
Read my words I said after. After is not only meant to be immediate reactions. You are trying to get into semantics with a timephrase here, is that really what we are talking about here? You think the word after somehow means immediately? Are you the type of player that doesnt think things over?
4) Town Plz give me your scum lists so I can appear town LUWL.
5) Bussinessman is so town posts.
The further into the game we get the more I'm seeing parallels between Classic TS and Mindscrew TS, and TS was town in Classic. (For a fun drinking game, ISO TS in Classic and take a shot everyone misrep comes up. You won't make it past 2 pages )
Ok, he’s come around to me here. But he’s more or less staying aloof. This is giving a town read with a reason, sure but there is no feeling coming from these posts that DOTA has any intention of scum hunting. Just making a few safe statements, talk about the set-ups of previous games and hang out in thread.
Who are his scum reads? He has an FOS on Necarg that was never even spoken about. He has cleared me and agrees with Nacho that Az might be neutral.
And that’s folks. Nothing else in thread. What I see here is a determination not to get his hands dirty. I can see a town side of that being, that he might have an interesting PR that he doesn’t want to jeopardize by putting himself out there that much but ironically I think that might be what’s giving people trepidation. On the scummy side it’s just a bunch of (mainly) void posts.
Will the real DOTA please stand up?
I think my response regarding my ability to scum hunt above applies to this as well.
As for my lack of activity in this game:
1) As with MvW, I've realised that with larger games I struggle to keep up and form strong opinions. I enjoyed Tracker(up until my self-hammer) and I'm enjoying the Shia game. That's not to say that I didn't enjoy MvW or this game, it just takes me longer to get into it.
2) The reason for my v/la has had a big impact on me emotionally and I'm still dealing with the fallout. It hasn't impacted on my available time so much, it's just eating up a lot of brainpower. I can't go into too much detail as it involves an ongoing investigation but the long and short of it is, I'm in the process of building a disciplinary case against one of my most trusted employees that is not going to end well for anyone. And the hearing is on Tuesday.
No, I can't. I also wouldn't just allow myself to be lynched even if I could, though.
Really? You wouldn't allow yourself to be lynched if it's determined by the majority that you're the scummiest, even? You wouldn't make that sacrifice?
The majority doesn't believe that I'm the scummiest. The people who have any form of a scumread on me whatsoever is you/Bur, and I wouldn't just roll over and allow myself to be lynched in order to make you/Bur feel better.
@Killjoy: I am going to respond to the bulk of your argument in a paragraph, let me know if I'm missing anything:
1) I find your "Overly Helpful" charge ridiculous because the logic it's based on is shaky. The lines you draw between "helpful" and "overly helpful" are arbitrary (for example: posting rules of past Mind Screws is OK, posting links and rules is NOT), and your attack on me for being overly helpful is an attack on me as a person, not my play this game (which is not to say that your attacks are out of line or personal, just that you're attacking me for being me). You say that what I do isn't what most people do: I'm not most people.
2) I don't understand what's scummy about my setup speculation. This is a very weird setup, and yes, there is merit in discussing a setup when it is abnormal. You've drawn an arbitrary line that states that I can't ask others to share their thoughts re: setup; I can only share my own thoughts. I find that arbitrary. I have not derailed the game in any way with my speculation, which is a fact you seem to acknowledge. I have not been using setup spec as a substitution for actual content, which you seem to acknowledge.
1) You're making quite a big deal about something I said was a minor point against you.
If it's true that that's just something you do, then yeah, that point's not something against you. That's fine.
2) Yes, the setup is weird. Trying to figure out the rules is fine. It's not that you're trying to figure out the game... it's that you're focusing on trying to figure out unknowable info early in the game when we have no info. You're effectively asking us to play Guess the Setup D1. We don't have claims yet. We don't have investigations yet. We don't even know if Az can give us shots of things because we haven't hit Night yet. He could be lying about that.
Speculating on that RIGHT NOW is pointless. We can come back to it later, when we have more info.
2) You didn't refute my point.
If you truly believed that we couldn't speculate on things before hard evidence was provided, then you wouldn't be lynching Day 1 and you wouldn't be talking about my power until it was proven. The name of the game is making educated guesses on things that you don't have hard evidence for.
Re: KJ, what points specifically are you referring to? What original lines of thought has KJ brought up that no one else has?
Re: Tom: Do you really think that Tom as scum would assume that the only person who would notice the displaced votes would be him? Calling him sensible means that you probably agree with a majority of his points against TS, correct? Do you agree with how he compares TS's anger here with his anger in Classic (especially the point where TS is backing off too soon?). What do you think of his towncase on DV?
Hm. Hey, Nacho... question for you: How do you typically find scum? What do you look for/try to find?
Why are you asking this question?
The only way that I could answer it seriously is by spouting out a big theory-related paragraph on scumhunting theory, which seems a waste of our time currently. If you don't believe that my scumhunting is effective, highlight points you disagree with and explain why.
Side note on votecount displays. I'd rather continue to vote for people we find honestly scummy, on the assumption that the display is wrong, but that a majority of votes on (say) TappingStones will actually lynch him and not tomsloger. I think that that will help keep vote records more clear for the future. In this particular case, I'm also reluctant to vote for myself for a redirect, due to having occasionally played games where self-votes were significant.
I think it's more likely that the votecount displays are honest than simply a red herring: there have been a couple of times in mindscrew games in the past where there have been "actions target the person on the playerlist below the intended target" (worded poorly, but I hope you can figure out what I'm driving at), and I don't think Tar would design a game where town got punished for paying close attention to votecounts.
Burden of Proficiency at its roots is a meta argument, whether that meta is gained from reputation or experience. The core of his argument is that I, as town, would be playing better and would recognize him as town. The bragging he did with regards to other games was meant to demonstrate that his line of logic was a valid one.
Yeah, but BoP seems to be more of a late-game argument. There doesn't seem to be much logic behind "he hasn't lynched scum yet" when we haven't actually lynched anyone.
Again, the wiki article is a little misleading - the argument is that the read that I have is an incorrect read that I wouldn't have as town, which functions fine as an early-game argument.
Also, I'm sure your reads are available in your posts, but: could you let us know which players you currently believe to be townie?
I'll make a cut and dry reads list in my next post.
The two wagons that I'm most willing to support today are Hawk (vote Tom), or Necarg (vote me). I have a better scumread on Hawk and would probably not reveal alignment there unless other people would be in strong support of a reveal there, but would most likely reveal Necarg because I still have doubts on him being scum based on his early posting.
The majority doesn't believe that I'm the scummiest. The people who have any form of a scumread on me whatsoever is you/Bur, and I wouldn't just roll over and allow myself to be lynched in order to make you/Bur feel better.
do you always know who is scumreading you?
my only scum game is the first time i really payed attention to this, but ive also never in my mafia career had as simple a list as two people. (actually maybe now, is anyone scumreading me besides TS and necarg? there must be someone else...)
Ghosting - I spectated Saw Mafia while it was happening, and I would strongly agree with Tom's assertion that Ghosting has a decent tendency to hide when scum. I think that the 100% scumread on Tom to a townread later progressed in a very genuine way: I don't think that this is something you'd coach your scumbuddy to do, and I very sincerely doubt that Ghosting came up with that himself, although I'd love to here particular details as they become available to share.
I also liked his interaction with me after my initial post on him, particularly the bits where he talked about "liking" my look into him - I'd expect him to be discrediting, fighting back against the case as scum but his response showed that he really was reading/processing my lines of attack on him. This reason is far less important than the first - he'd only be a leaning townread without that particular bit.
Tomsloger - The strongest thing that made me thought that he was town is the depth of his thought process outside his TS read (which is the only trepidation I have on him: I don't really follow his TS read as well as I should, although I expect a lion's share of the blame in that particular scenario is mine). In particular, I really liked his early townreads on Hans and DV: the DV one in particular came at a time when no one was townreading him, but the observations themselves (the "post restriction" + missing from the playerlist making him a bastard-y person to slot in as scum") seemed pretty on-point and reasonable in a place where I thought scum!Tom was having weird reads just to fulfill his weird reads quota. I also think he's put a solid amount of effort into game-solving at this point: I can follow 90% of his reads and I can tell you where he stands and those reads and why and there's no real place where I think his reasons are poor enough where I think they might be faked.
I also think that his play centered around his role has seemed town enough: I think it's a weak part of his scum game because his perspectives on roleclaiming have been odd, but his reveal now came at a point that was natural and beneficial to town; there have been no red flags otherwise.
iamabusinessman - The main thing that makes me townread iamabusinessman is the passion imbued into every single one of his reads; it's a playstyle that is incredibly difficult to replicate as scum and I'm not quite sure that it would come across so naturally if he was scum here. In particular, I think that the way his push evolved on me was excellently done if he was scum: he jumped from a 0 to 100 scumread on me when I first pushed the case against me, and then didn't back off or slow his roll once I townread him in response; instead, his read on me sort of went stale after a little while (although it still exists). I like that all subsequent pushes (particularly the one on DV) have been on people others don't have as a popular target, and that he's still managed to cast a wide net, which is something else I think he'd have trouble faking as scum.
D_V - The biggest thing that gives me such a strong town feeling is his response to iamabusinessman: while anger isn't always alignment-indicative, there is a sort of exasperation with IMAB's posts that I think is coming from town as opposed to scum. If D_V was scum, I think he would be more reasonable in his push on IMAB - IMAB lied about a detail, he is scum. Instead, D_V has gotten flustered, angry, and has constantly appealed to the town in order to bring more attention to the case in general, which I find a town action.
TappingStones - One of the big assumptions that I'm making in this read is that TS would take particular pleasure in dismantling cases and pushing people as scum; I think he'd view Tom as a liability if they were scum together and an easy mislynch if he were scum against him because of their history together. As a result, I find TS "taking his ball and going home" in this particular scenario to be far more likely to be coming from TS as town than TS as scum: as scum, TS would be more willing to engage Tom back and clog up the thread and would probably focus on other players a bit less than he does normally (which isn't quite the case). I also feel like his anger and frustration this game seems pretty genuine: I don't think the D_V getting blocked, telling tom he would ignore him and then not ignore him and that whole exchange would be as likely to happen if TS was scum; I think he'd feel more calm knowing that he could get them lynched and it would help his win condition, and I think he'd feel confident that he could make that happen.
Gentleman Johnny: There are a few reasons that add up to me having a town read on GJ. I like his original interaction with me over the governor role (in particular, linking me to his scum QT where he said that if he was town, me acting like I was as governor would piss him off). For one, it's an interaction that's leagues better than his interaction with me last time he was governor, and second of all, if he was trying to behave differently towards me in order to get me to townread him, I think he'd be far less blatant about it. The weirdest part of me townreading him is my based on my read of his voice: I'm pretty confident I know who it is but won't out it unless they want me to, and I think their approach to me/the game thus far is pretty decent. The third piece to the GJ town puzzle (and probably the strongest piece for me personally) is his reaction to the Ghosting situation: it seemed genuine as hell, and I liked how he decided to let it ride a bit after it became clear he was misunderstanding what happened (and I liked that he cleared up that he thought it was role-based: if he was scum, he could have pushed Ghosting on a line of thought Ghosting couldn't have defended himself from which I think is a bit cheap and feel GJ would feel the same way so this point isn't as strong).
TOWN TOWN:
KillJoy - The big thing that makes me feel town on this slot is the push on me. It's not a line of thought that anyone else is really buying, but the way he's been pushing and selling it makes me think town; in particular, the focus on the setup speculation point feels genuine, and the "overly helpful" point being brought out on me because he caught someone in another game seems genuine enough. I also like him looking for other ways to settle his read on me if it turns out that he can't lynch me (aka the asking me if I'd pardon myself question): IMAB had a couple of similar approaches to me in his last game, and it feels similar here.
RobRoy: The big reason I have a townread on this slot is mostly because of how reasonable, thorough he's been with his reads. The main reason I have trepidation with a read on this is because it's mostly not based on specifics: I have no familiarity with him as a player, so I don't know whether this is just his style or something else.
To his benefit, I feel like the timing of his vote on TS feels genuine; he could have made a low-hanging fruit push on IMAB for lying, he gets huge points for the early hawk vote (it seems like the only vote that I could feel confident in hitting scum with), and the other big thing that makes me think town is simply based on the depth of thought of his TS read: he's constantly been analyzing and reanalyzing and putting real effort into that read, which is time I don't think RobRoy invests as scum; it's more likely to me that he picks a side on the TS-Tom debate and goes with it.
TOWN (?):
Bur - The two main things that I like from Bur is his interaction with Hunt (and specifically seeking to interact with Hunt - I think that Bur would feel he got an inside look at Hunt's head based on them hydraing together, and it definitely makes sense that that would be one of the first people he sought out interaction with. I also like his interaction with my governor claim: he started out saying that I was very likely town based on the claim (when he said that it wasn't "role related info", he meant that his own role didn't tell him that I was town which I also find townish in a way), then, when I said it was possible that I wouldn't govern today, Bur sort of overreacted and emphasized how important it was to him personally that I pardon today.
Huntzilla - I know he's been swamped lately which makes this read a little less confident than it would be otherwise, but I was actually a big fan of his early game posts (317 especially). I liked how he followed up on Necarg's non-specific TS push (it definitely looked like an opportunistic push), I liked his question to hawk on why tom imploding was bad; it wasn't something that I thought of before and ends up being a pretty solid point. I loved the confidence in his Ghosting/Necarg pushes; this is something that dropped out the past couple of times I saw him as scum, and I liked him taking the position that Tom-TS was TvT; I thought that picking sides was a trap that a weaker scum player could easily fall into, and he didn't. The only thing that makes this read not so strong is that there aren't enough posts like 317.
Hansanator - I thought his followup posts after the claim were fine, in particular I thought that he would be unlikely to take the "TS is probably too whiny to be pushing a mislynch" angle as scum because there's a level of confidence involved in approaching that read as scum that I'm not sure Hans would have. This read doesn't really have much substance behind it because
Anaklusmos - Weakest of my townreads by far (actually started in the scumread section before I read his posts!). He seems to be making a real effort to gamesolve, which I like. Another bit of a strange towntell comes from his #157, where he says that he has no idea what's going on in the game but he loves it: that seemed genuine to me; normally, when scum pull the whole "I have no idea what to think about this game" spiel they're using it as an excuse to being completely unable to provide any reads whatsoever, but the way that this one was framed made me feel like it was more likely to be genuine. I really wish that he would take more definitive stances on things, but I have a feeling that sort of posting isn't his style, so I'm willing to give him room to work for now.
DARTH DOESN'T POST *****:
Darth_Melvin - I wouldn't want to lynch this slot just for the sake of Tar avoiding having to find a replacement; the only time when I'm willing to do that is when the game is already POE'd down, which this one sure as hell isn't.
NOT TOWNREADING IN ANY WAY, DON'T WANT TO LYNCH:
DoTArchon - I've found that while DoT tends to get extremely overwhelmed in large games where there are a lot of players he needs to keep tabs on, he tends to step it up, post a bunch, be obviously town in the later game. I would love love love love if he posted more so I could actually get a solid read on him before he dies, but I'm willing to give him room to work for now.
NOT TOWNREADING, WILLING TO LYNCH:
leukovirus - This is the weakest of all of my reads in this group and would rather we lynch someone else in that group, but I don't think running him up today would be a bad play. I was OK with his push against Tom earlier, but after later review, this sort of looks like picking a side and choosing it (his case against Tom is "I don't like how you are pushing TS as scum over one simple question"). I really like his "no lynch is better than a mislynch" part of his #234 because it seems like such a strong copout, which is an especially large red flag because of how few reads he's actually given this game. The reason this read is so incredibly weak is due to the fact that he doesn't really have much mafia experience and didn't really do anything in Saw, but he also had a certain pluck about him in his push on Tom that he's been very strongly lacking here (except when correcting Bur on pronouns, which I don't think is relevant to the game).
Jobie - Almost did less than Darth_Melvin has! Which I don't think is relevant because he just got married. The thing he did that I didn't like was the easy read on Tom; don't think he'd do it so effortlessly if he was town and actually trying to figure out Tom's alignment.
Necarg - So, the original reason I was townreading him (he was having fun with the ability to edit posts) was bad. Tom correctly pointed out that it was a mirror to why I was townreading Hans, and I think that he'd have that kind of enjoyment of the ability to do something regardless of alignment; Necarg is not confident posting as scum, but it doesn't mean he loses all enjoyment of playing the game. I don't like his focus on the TS-Tom fight because it looks like scum taking advantage of town fighting town. I don't like the lurking, and I don't like how forced all of his posts have sounded past the first couple.
SCUM:
Hawk: - My biggest problem with Hawk is how much of a non-entity he's been; my experience with his town game has been someone who was constantly in the game, posting, game-solving. I don't like his initial push on Tom because of how nonsensical it was (I don't want to put too much pressure on Tom or he might implode and I'm pretty sure I can read him very easily, but here's a vote on him anyways), and I hate his complete lack of stance on anything now that his tom scumread has disappeared. This is probably the only lynch I 100% wouldn't pardon because he has a high enough chance of being scum where I wouldn't want to waste two days lynching him.
I also notice that most of my townreads are the active players (and I don't think any other player agrees that the entire warring group is town), thus I'm also willing to reveal one of Tom/TS/IMAB today, despite believing that they are town because I feel it might turn some of the momentum to the people not doing anything this game. Down the road, if people still want to lynch those top townreads, I will probably instead try to work out a situation where I make them king for a day instead of lynching them, especially if townreads stay as strong as they are right now.
Vote: Nachomamma8 (redirect to Necarg)
I do have kind of weird thoughts about there being a majority on me in order to lynch Necarg, but it also feels like there's good support behind him and that he has a pretty solid chance to be lynched, so I think he's the play for today and feel confident enough on my setup spec where I don't think I'll be magically lynched instead. When I made my earlier catchup, I was sort of on the fence between revealing and lynching him; after rereading some ISOs and getting a better idea on where I stand on everyone, I'd be happier with killing him outright.
Jobie - Almost did less than Darth_Melvin has! Which I don't think is relevant because he just got married. The thing he did that I didn't like was the easy read on Tom; don't think he'd do it so effortlessly if he was town and actually trying to figure out Tom's alignment.
jobie has not posted a single read this game. i checked. please explain.
also typed up something about necarg here, but i really want to wait for his promised catchup.
come on necarg.
@IMAB Was it Jobie's vote of Rod Serling that set you off, or what else tipped you to a serious vote on him?
Because voting people outside of the game is a scumtell.
It proved itself in AVANTE-GARDE mafia. I just didn't push it hard enough and let it go when I shouldn't have.
Though everyone seemed to jump all over this already, I feel obligated to respond:
1) Voting people outside of the game is not a scumtell.
1b) I didn't vote for someone outside of the game, merely a non-player member of the game.
2) Sample size is a helluva drug
3) Though some information can be gleamed from RVS, I think "HEY SERIOUS VOTE HERE GUYS" is more interesting.
I was on the bus when I read through the Tom/Tapping pillow fight. It seemed like hot townie-on-townie action from what I skimmed, but I'll take a closer look later. I think for the time being let's just let them yell at each other until they get tired.
The majority doesn't believe that I'm the scummiest. The people who have any form of a scumread on me whatsoever is you/Bur, and I wouldn't just roll over and allow myself to be lynched in order to make you/Bur feel better.
do you always know who is scumreading you?
my only scum game is the first time i really payed attention to this, but ive also never in my mafia career had as simple a list as two people. (actually maybe now, is anyone scumreading me besides TS and necarg? there must be someone else...)
Usually, I'm aware of everyone who has a serious scumread of me. One of the strategies that have brought me the most consistent success off-site is reading people based on how they're reading me, so I'm usually pretty sensitive to people who have strong reads on me.
None of his posts have felt unreliable to me at all, regardless of his PR. Sure, sometimes the words used are a bit more grandiose I guess? But the message that he is trying to convey is abundantly clear. The fact that you attempt to use this as proof that he is wrong is one of the most troublesome parts of the case against you. Like, you are attacking the method by which he is casing you, instead of attacking the case, or even DV! It makes me think you aren't responding to the case because you don't actually have a response, which just makes me think you are scum more.
Like I told you for, something like the third time, D_V's "case" was rebutted before he even made it.
Except apparently for responding to D_V. I really hate just blanket ignoring a player, especially when he doesn't deserve that from you. He is just trying to play the game, and quitting like that just grinds my gears in the worst way. The only time I could maybe see that is if he was making personal insults against you, but that't not what he did at all. It reeks to me of not having a response to his case, and as such you are just trying to find a way to respond to it at all.
Vote: Jobie to vote IMAB (though they are backwards alphabetically in the player list)
D_V's case is embarrasingly bad. I don't have to refute it because it's a case so bad that it gets refuted by even casual observation.
For example D_V insists that I lied about him changing his avatar. But wait....
In the interest of getting our facts right... you did switch avatars at some point since the start of this game day, correct, D_V? I'm pretty sure I recall it being different at the beginning. Was it just the once, or have you switched more than once?
D_V?
Says IABM is lying but then admits later that he did in fact change his avatar.
Damn. There are witnesses so D_V changes his story to that he never changed his avatar at all to he only changed it once! Looks like D_V is taking his cues from George Orwell's 1984. Next he'll tell us that he's never changed his avatar at all and it's always been the way it is now just like how we've always been at war with Eastasia...
D_V insists that I was accusing people of making cases against people before they got their role pm's. Let's review from before...
How is voting someone outside of the game a scum tell, when they have not received their role pm yet?
The game started as of post 21.
Proph voted someone "outside of the game" in post 27 and jobie voted someone "outside of the game" in post 31. It's like you're on another planet. Are you even reading this game? I look forward to your posting restriction coming to an end because this is nonsense.
Nope. The "voting outside the game" was based on vote AFTER the game had started. I addressed the accusation D_V is dredging up in post 74. Over 500+ posts ago. Then D_V tries to double down except...I also addressed this further in post 328. So D_V's false accusations have been addressed not just once but twice!
And these are just using posts that are already in the game to refute D_V's accusations with casual observations. I don't even have to go into details because D_V's false accusations are just blatant. I know that there's more to d_v drek but he's on ignore and it's not even worth reading.
Lastly D_V insists that "he's not here" because he can't get votes. But it's entirely possible that the votes d_v gets are simply invisible. As an aside lol@tomsloger for being so naive as to not realize such a possibility.
Again. None of this is ultimately relevant to me because D_V is not able to control his own content. I'd rather put him on ignore than read unreliable posts. Here's what I do know. Townies and scum can make garbage cases. Scum are much more likely to agree with garbage cases than townies. And lol at you thinking I'm afraid of a case and chose to dismiss it as opposed to addressing it. It's the type of case that dismisses itself if you read the game.
So my scumreads are...
Bur
DoTArchon
Anaklusmos
maybe scum
Nachomamma8
Ghosting
tomsloger
D_v'S entire case was refuted 100 posts before he even made it. Literally every point she has brought up was addressed. T/S said that D_V is trying to cause discord and it her "case" was a textbook example. However the fact that you're ignoring this completely and instead insisting that I'm not addressing her "case" because I'm afraid is patently ridiculous.
I told you to read the thread and you could verify it yourself and you did not. I even quoted the above post directly to you and you did not so that you could get a notification and you didn't have anything to say about it. Scum like to attach themselves to trash cases and that's exactly what you've done. And fyi I already told you that I figured d_v was trolling for reactions.
d v is trolling for reactions. I look forward to him getting into the game and doing something useful. rvs is over.
Literally right near the start of the game. I'm not scumreading d_v but I definitely see you as scum. I know d_v was making hay about other points too but those have also already been refuted literally before she even made her "case". If you had read the game like I suggested you'd have known all this. This makes it look like you're not reading to solve the game. It also looks like you're trying to hitch yourself to a wagon early so that in the event that a mislynch goes through you can make yourself look better by placement.
@TS: It took me a while to realise that "TS list" didn't mean "TappingStones list"...
Here we go, straight from my gut without rereading anything:
1) 7hawk77 - I recall that he had posts that felt natural, but I don't remember anything about the content. Null.
2) Anaklusmos - No idea what he's done in this game. Null.
3) Bur -
4) Darth Melvin - was this guy in this game? Null.
6) DoTArchon - no idea if he's done anything in this game. Null.
7) Gentleman Johnny - not impressed by his lack of active participation. He just seems to be sitting here and is content doing nothing. Lean Scum.
8) Ghosting - Probably the player I should pay more attention next. I recall he's been buddying with TS, but not much else. Null.
9) hansanator - For early game reasons (and being silly as always), Null to Lean Town.
10) Huntzilla - Slight Lean Town for feeling natural and not fulfilling the criteria of my possible scumtell for him.
11) Jobie - no idea if he's done anything in this game. Null.
12) iamabusinessman - not liking his play as of late, but this is IMAB we are talking about... Null to Lean Scum.
13) Killjoy - For being sensible and having his mind on the right place. Town.
14) leukovirus - Not strongly impressed by her/him. Null.
15) Nachomamma8 - Special case. Could go either way, depending on whether he's honest about his role or not.
16) Necarg - Haven't been impressed by the few posts by him that actually have something in them. Lean scum.
18) RobRoy - My gut says he's town, but haven't paid any closer attention to him yet. Lean Town.
19) TappingStones - It'd be great if he interacted with others than Tom. Null to Lean Town.
20) tomsloger - Tom makes sense (and good points at times). Town. (I like him more between Tom and TS.)
Ghosting - I spectated Saw Mafia while it was happening, and I would strongly agree with Tom's assertion that Ghosting has a decent tendency to hide when scum. I think that the 100% scumread on Tom to a townread later progressed in a very genuine way: I don't think that this is something you'd coach your scumbuddy to do, and I very sincerely doubt that Ghosting came up with that himself, although I'd love to here particular details as they become available to share.
I also liked his interaction with me after my initial post on him, particularly the bits where he talked about "liking" my look into him - I'd expect him to be discrediting, fighting back against the case as scum but his response showed that he really was reading/processing my lines of attack on him. This reason is far less important than the first - he'd only be a leaning townread without that particular bit.
Tomsloger - The strongest thing that made me thought that he was town is the depth of his thought process outside his TS read (which is the only trepidation I have on him: I don't really follow his TS read as well as I should, although I expect a lion's share of the blame in that particular scenario is mine). In particular, I really liked his early townreads on Hans and DV: the DV one in particular came at a time when no one was townreading him, but the observations themselves (the "post restriction" + missing from the playerlist making him a bastard-y person to slot in as scum") seemed pretty on-point and reasonable in a place where I thought scum!Tom was having weird reads just to fulfill his weird reads quota. I also think he's put a solid amount of effort into game-solving at this point: I can follow 90% of his reads and I can tell you where he stands and those reads and why and there's no real place where I think his reasons are poor enough where I think they might be faked.
I also think that his play centered around his role has seemed town enough: I think it's a weak part of his scum game because his perspectives on roleclaiming have been odd, but his reveal now came at a point that was natural and beneficial to town; there have been no red flags otherwise.
iamabusinessman - The main thing that makes me townread iamabusinessman is the passion imbued into every single one of his reads; it's a playstyle that is incredibly difficult to replicate as scum and I'm not quite sure that it would come across so naturally if he was scum here. In particular, I think that the way his push evolved on me was excellently done if he was scum: he jumped from a 0 to 100 scumread on me when I first pushed the case against me, and then didn't back off or slow his roll once I townread him in response; instead, his read on me sort of went stale after a little while (although it still exists). I like that all subsequent pushes (particularly the one on DV) have been on people others don't have as a popular target, and that he's still managed to cast a wide net, which is something else I think he'd have trouble faking as scum.
D_V - The biggest thing that gives me such a strong town feeling is his response to iamabusinessman: while anger isn't always alignment-indicative, there is a sort of exasperation with IMAB's posts that I think is coming from town as opposed to scum. If D_V was scum, I think he would be more reasonable in his push on IMAB - IMAB lied about a detail, he is scum. Instead, D_V has gotten flustered, angry, and has constantly appealed to the town in order to bring more attention to the case in general, which I find a town action.
TappingStones - One of the big assumptions that I'm making in this read is that TS would take particular pleasure in dismantling cases and pushing people as scum; I think he'd view Tom as a liability if they were scum together and an easy mislynch if he were scum against him because of their history together. As a result, I find TS "taking his ball and going home" in this particular scenario to be far more likely to be coming from TS as town than TS as scum: as scum, TS would be more willing to engage Tom back and clog up the thread and would probably focus on other players a bit less than he does normally (which isn't quite the case). I also feel like his anger and frustration this game seems pretty genuine: I don't think the D_V getting blocked, telling tom he would ignore him and then not ignore him and that whole exchange would be as likely to happen if TS was scum; I think he'd feel more calm knowing that he could get them lynched and it would help his win condition, and I think he'd feel confident that he could make that happen.
Gentleman Johnny: There are a few reasons that add up to me having a town read on GJ. I like his original interaction with me over the governor role (in particular, linking me to his scum QT where he said that if he was town, me acting like I was as governor would piss him off). For one, it's an interaction that's leagues better than his interaction with me last time he was governor, and second of all, if he was trying to behave differently towards me in order to get me to townread him, I think he'd be far less blatant about it. The weirdest part of me townreading him is my based on my read of his voice: I'm pretty confident I know who it is but won't out it unless they want me to, and I think their approach to me/the game thus far is pretty decent. The third piece to the GJ town puzzle (and probably the strongest piece for me personally) is his reaction to the Ghosting situation: it seemed genuine as hell, and I liked how he decided to let it ride a bit after it became clear he was misunderstanding what happened (and I liked that he cleared up that he thought it was role-based: if he was scum, he could have pushed Ghosting on a line of thought Ghosting couldn't have defended himself from which I think is a bit cheap and feel GJ would feel the same way so this point isn't as strong).
TOWN TOWN:
KillJoy - The big thing that makes me feel town on this slot is the push on me. It's not a line of thought that anyone else is really buying, but the way he's been pushing and selling it makes me think town; in particular, the focus on the setup speculation point feels genuine, and the "overly helpful" point being brought out on me because he caught someone in another game seems genuine enough. I also like him looking for other ways to settle his read on me if it turns out that he can't lynch me (aka the asking me if I'd pardon myself question): IMAB had a couple of similar approaches to me in his last game, and it feels similar here.
RobRoy: The big reason I have a townread on this slot is mostly because of how reasonable, thorough he's been with his reads. The main reason I have trepidation with a read on this is because it's mostly not based on specifics: I have no familiarity with him as a player, so I don't know whether this is just his style or something else.
To his benefit, I feel like the timing of his vote on TS feels genuine; he could have made a low-hanging fruit push on IMAB for lying, he gets huge points for the early hawk vote (it seems like the only vote that I could feel confident in hitting scum with), and the other big thing that makes me think town is simply based on the depth of thought of his TS read: he's constantly been analyzing and reanalyzing and putting real effort into that read, which is time I don't think RobRoy invests as scum; it's more likely to me that he picks a side on the TS-Tom debate and goes with it.
TOWN (?):
Bur - The two main things that I like from Bur is his interaction with Hunt (and specifically seeking to interact with Hunt - I think that Bur would feel he got an inside look at Hunt's head based on them hydraing together, and it definitely makes sense that that would be one of the first people he sought out interaction with. I also like his interaction with my governor claim: he started out saying that I was very likely town based on the claim (when he said that it wasn't "role related info", he meant that his own role didn't tell him that I was town which I also find townish in a way), then, when I said it was possible that I wouldn't govern today, Bur sort of overreacted and emphasized how important it was to him personally that I pardon today.
Huntzilla - I know he's been swamped lately which makes this read a little less confident than it would be otherwise, but I was actually a big fan of his early game posts (317 especially). I liked how he followed up on Necarg's non-specific TS push (it definitely looked like an opportunistic push), I liked his question to hawk on why tom imploding was bad; it wasn't something that I thought of before and ends up being a pretty solid point. I loved the confidence in his Ghosting/Necarg pushes; this is something that dropped out the past couple of times I saw him as scum, and I liked him taking the position that Tom-TS was TvT; I thought that picking sides was a trap that a weaker scum player could easily fall into, and he didn't. The only thing that makes this read not so strong is that there aren't enough posts like 317.
Hansanator - I thought his followup posts after the claim were fine, in particular I thought that he would be unlikely to take the "TS is probably too whiny to be pushing a mislynch" angle as scum because there's a level of confidence involved in approaching that read as scum that I'm not sure Hans would have. This read doesn't really have much substance behind it because
Anaklusmos - Weakest of my townreads by far (actually started in the scumread section before I read his posts!). He seems to be making a real effort to gamesolve, which I like. Another bit of a strange towntell comes from his #157, where he says that he has no idea what's going on in the game but he loves it: that seemed genuine to me; normally, when scum pull the whole "I have no idea what to think about this game" spiel they're using it as an excuse to being completely unable to provide any reads whatsoever, but the way that this one was framed made me feel like it was more likely to be genuine. I really wish that he would take more definitive stances on things, but I have a feeling that sort of posting isn't his style, so I'm willing to give him room to work for now.
DARTH DOESN'T POST *****:
Darth_Melvin - I wouldn't want to lynch this slot just for the sake of Tar avoiding having to find a replacement; the only time when I'm willing to do that is when the game is already POE'd down, which this one sure as hell isn't.
NOT TOWNREADING IN ANY WAY, DON'T WANT TO LYNCH:
DoTArchon - I've found that while DoT tends to get extremely overwhelmed in large games where there are a lot of players he needs to keep tabs on, he tends to step it up, post a bunch, be obviously town in the later game. I would love love love love if he posted more so I could actually get a solid read on him before he dies, but I'm willing to give him room to work for now.
NOT TOWNREADING, WILLING TO LYNCH:
leukovirus - This is the weakest of all of my reads in this group and would rather we lynch someone else in that group, but I don't think running him up today would be a bad play. I was OK with his push against Tom earlier, but after later review, this sort of looks like picking a side and choosing it (his case against Tom is "I don't like how you are pushing TS as scum over one simple question"). I really like his "no lynch is better than a mislynch" part of his #234 because it seems like such a strong copout, which is an especially large red flag because of how few reads he's actually given this game. The reason this read is so incredibly weak is due to the fact that he doesn't really have much mafia experience and didn't really do anything in Saw, but he also had a certain pluck about him in his push on Tom that he's been very strongly lacking here (except when correcting Bur on pronouns, which I don't think is relevant to the game).
Jobie - Almost did less than Darth_Melvin has! Which I don't think is relevant because he just got married. The thing he did that I didn't like was the easy read on Tom; don't think he'd do it so effortlessly if he was town and actually trying to figure out Tom's alignment.
Necarg - So, the original reason I was townreading him (he was having fun with the ability to edit posts) was bad. Tom correctly pointed out that it was a mirror to why I was townreading Hans, and I think that he'd have that kind of enjoyment of the ability to do something regardless of alignment; Necarg is not confident posting as scum, but it doesn't mean he loses all enjoyment of playing the game. I don't like his focus on the TS-Tom fight because it looks like scum taking advantage of town fighting town. I don't like the lurking, and I don't like how forced all of his posts have sounded past the first couple.
SCUM:
Hawk: - My biggest problem with Hawk is how much of a non-entity he's been; my experience with his town game has been someone who was constantly in the game, posting, game-solving. I don't like his initial push on Tom because of how nonsensical it was (I don't want to put too much pressure on Tom or he might implode and I'm pretty sure I can read him very easily, but here's a vote on him anyways), and I hate his complete lack of stance on anything now that his tom scumread has disappeared. This is probably the only lynch I 100% wouldn't pardon because he has a high enough chance of being scum where I wouldn't want to waste two days lynching him.
None of his posts have felt unreliable to me at all, regardless of his PR. Sure, sometimes the words used are a bit more grandiose I guess? But the message that he is trying to convey is abundantly clear. The fact that you attempt to use this as proof that he is wrong is one of the most troublesome parts of the case against you. Like, you are attacking the method by which he is casing you, instead of attacking the case, or even DV! It makes me think you aren't responding to the case because you don't actually have a response, which just makes me think you are scum more.
Like I told you for, something like the third time, D_V's "case" was rebutted before he even made it.
Except apparently for responding to D_V. I really hate just blanket ignoring a player, especially when he doesn't deserve that from you. He is just trying to play the game, and quitting like that just grinds my gears in the worst way. The only time I could maybe see that is if he was making personal insults against you, but that't not what he did at all. It reeks to me of not having a response to his case, and as such you are just trying to find a way to respond to it at all.
Vote: Jobie to vote IMAB (though they are backwards alphabetically in the player list)
D_V's case is embarrasingly bad. I don't have to refute it because it's a case so bad that it gets refuted by even casual observation.
For example D_V insists that I lied about him changing his avatar. But wait....
In the interest of getting our facts right... you did switch avatars at some point since the start of this game day, correct, D_V? I'm pretty sure I recall it being different at the beginning. Was it just the once, or have you switched more than once?
D_V?
Says IABM is lying but then admits later that he did in fact change his avatar.
Damn. There are witnesses so D_V changes his story to that he never changed his avatar at all to he only changed it once! Looks like D_V is taking his cues from George Orwell's 1984. Next he'll tell us that he's never changed his avatar at all and it's always been the way it is now just like how we've always been at war with Eastasia...
D_V insists that I was accusing people of making cases against people before they got their role pm's. Let's review from before...
How is voting someone outside of the game a scum tell, when they have not received their role pm yet?
The game started as of post 21.
Proph voted someone "outside of the game" in post 27 and jobie voted someone "outside of the game" in post 31. It's like you're on another planet. Are you even reading this game? I look forward to your posting restriction coming to an end because this is nonsense.
Nope. The "voting outside the game" was based on vote AFTER the game had started. I addressed the accusation D_V is dredging up in post 74. Over 500+ posts ago. Then D_V tries to double down except...I also addressed this further in post 328. So D_V's false accusations have been addressed not just once but twice!
And these are just using posts that are already in the game to refute D_V's accusations with casual observations. I don't even have to go into details because D_V's false accusations are just blatant. I know that there's more to d_v drek but he's on ignore and it's not even worth reading.
Lastly D_V insists that "he's not here" because he can't get votes. But it's entirely possible that the votes d_v gets are simply invisible. As an aside lol@tomsloger for being so naive as to not realize such a possibility.
Again. None of this is ultimately relevant to me because D_V is not able to control his own content. I'd rather put him on ignore than read unreliable posts. Here's what I do know. Townies and scum can make garbage cases. Scum are much more likely to agree with garbage cases than townies. And lol at you thinking I'm afraid of a case and chose to dismiss it as opposed to addressing it. It's the type of case that dismisses itself if you read the game.
So my scumreads are...
Bur
DoTArchon
Anaklusmos
maybe scum
Nachomamma8
Ghosting
tomsloger
D_v'S entire case was refuted 100 posts before he even made it. Literally every point she has brought up was addressed. T/S said that D_V is trying to cause discord and it her "case" was a textbook example. However the fact that you're ignoring this completely and instead insisting that I'm not addressing her "case" because I'm afraid is patently ridiculous.
I told you to read the thread and you could verify it yourself and you did not. I even quoted the above post directly to you and you did not so that you could get a notification and you didn't have anything to say about it. Scum like to attach themselves to trash cases and that's exactly what you've done. And fyi I already told you that I figured d_v was trolling for reactions.
d v is trolling for reactions. I look forward to him getting into the game and doing something useful. rvs is over.
Literally right near the start of the game. I'm not scumreading d_v but I definitely see you as scum. I know d_v was making hay about other points too but those have also already been refuted literally before she even made her "case". If you had read the game like I suggested you'd have known all this. This makes it look like you're not reading to solve the game. It also looks like you're trying to hitch yourself to a wagon early so that in the event that a mislynch goes through you can make yourself look better by placement.
Uhhhh what in the world made you think I was a female?
not didnt know why, couldnt remember why. pretty important difference.
hes been real forgettable bro.
now would you like to answer any of my questions? like, ever?
straight up, i would love to townread you. that would make you significantly nicer to me and probably change your opinion of me.
but you are absolutely making it impossible.
why am i neutral? why did you phrase it that way? do you think hans is hard to read? did you not realize hans couldnt answer your questions without revealing his role? how am i inconsistent/not trying to solve the game?
some of these questions are 12 pages old.
Tom I DONT CARE if you scum read me. Every post you make is either false or some sort of contradiction. If you want to be the lone player scumreading me and then see in postgame that Im not scum again then so be it. The annoying thing is that you refuse to play Mafia in a consistent fashion and leads to a lot of facepalms from the player base.
I have a theory you might be scum aligned. Whether you are a scum aligned neutral or not is based on how you dont want to solve the game. Like literally zero interest. Suggests to me that you have an alternate win con.
I dont think Hans is necessarily hard to read, like you he isnt very consistent. Of course Hans could answer my question without revealing his role, but the fact is that his choice to claim responsibility for ending the day was unnecessary WIFOM.
i'd bet my lucky testicle that if TS was scum and thought you were a neutral, he wouldn't be treating you this way.
you mean attempting to act like he always does and then mention the neutral read once then refuse to ever acknowledge it again?
how else would he act?
I have more input on this particular exchange, but first:
TS, could you explain why you thought that Tom was neutral way back when?
Yeah, this exchange is particular troublesome because Tom has already been complimenting me on "playing a great scum game", "acting like he always does", "checking all the right boxes", etc. If I'm playing scum so well then that means I appear towny, right? So why have you been calling me the scummiest? See this is why I just can't deal with Tom. He just consistently contradicts himself as any alignment.
I explained in my last post. There is another tell I'm reading but I don't think it's in my best interest to let him know about it yet. I'd rather bury him tomorrow when I see how this vote mechanic actually works.
I agree with Tom here, you seem to be fishing hard for role info. If you were hard scum reading me in the MvW game for role speculating, why are you doing the same here? And how can you be certain it's an X-shot ability?
So here’s DOTA’s first step out of the aether. I’m not going to revive the whole role fishing argument because we’ve gone through that already. I was adamant in my defense that my probes were not about role-information but motivations and alignments. Motivations are the thing that motivates me to try and read players and I think it’s an interesting skill that I’m trying to improve. Some people thought I was role-fishing others saw it from my perspective.
In regards to the MvW game I didn’t consistently scum read DOTA though I did scum read him through different parts of the game somewhat based on his in game mistakes like role blocking our governor on a night where it seemed he would use our known “vig shot”. It seems like a real stretch to say I was “hardscum-reading" him based on role-fishing. I spoke up about his role fishing and said it was scummy but there are a lot of things I called him out on. He fessed up to some of the strange blunders and even at one point mentioned he would take the blame for a town loss, which I can appreciate the sentiment of. In the end he and I were town together even though we suspected each other on and off throughout the game.
I never once said or made a statement of the nature that Hans had an x-shot ability. I believe Bur asked me about one-shot, multi shot and I discussed the merits, likelihood of either but never said it was multi shot.
I'm back. I've been trying to keep up with the game but have no notes beyond my V/LA post so want to reread before I post any further thoughts. For now:
Unvote
P.S. Proph kill sucked. Want to look into that.
If you have a look at Shia Mafia you'll notice I did the same thing. I'd been skimming both games for a few days and unvoted to get a clearer picture of what was happening with my scum reads before voting again.
This unvote is cleverly placed if DOTA is trying to back off. Kind of reminds of someone who jumps into a family argument and as things get more heated the person slowly and quietly steps backward hoping no one notices them leaving the room. Been trying to keep up with the game but no notes. Wants to reread before continuing. Why does that require an unvote? If he hadn’t gotten caught up why would he think his current vote is poorly placed? As I mentioned the placement between catchup comment and random weird comment about Proph death. Not a mention of why I’m not scummy enough to be voted anymore. Why does the Proph death suck?
I liked Proph for town and the kill came out of nowhere, leaving us guessing what had happened. So yes, it sucked. I'll respond to the rest in more detail at the end of the post.
Lynching the Mao role on MS 1 fixed the vote count discrepancies and revealed the rules/deadlines etc.
How does everyone feel about running Az up for Nacho to pardon? I think we could gain a lot of information from revealing his role in this game.
I’m not saying this post is bad. I don’t mind that he was thinking about the reveal plan, I’m more wondering why he would want to first go after someone he thinks might give us more rules/deadline info? Sure, that info would be helpful, but killing scum is likely the most helpful thing you can do.
Some of that paranoia from MvW carried over, I mean, Nacho gets governor 2 games in a row? As he posted more in the thread though I realised I was being silly, it's a ballsy claim to make when it's so easily disproven.
I agree with RobRoy, I was against Nacho being forced into using his ability in Classic and I'm against it here.
@TS
Quote from TappingStones »
You let me worry about Tom
Can you clarify this statement for me
Interesting, when i came around to this Robroy wanted to jump down my throat. No attack from Robroy on DOTA for the sudden change.
These remarks/questions, to me, just reaks of busy work . Why do you need this clarified DOTA? Do you have any interest in Tom? How about you let us know what’s going on in that head of yours? Is Necarg suspicious because he agreed with your read on me?
I'd like some clarity on the statement since, if you're right and Tom is scum, then he's everyone's problem and not just yours. Seemed like an odd thing to say and I wanted to hear more from you on it.
Forgot to add: I was looking at some of the older Mind Screw setups and I noticed that the Mao player could send a message to Tar, which Tar would then post in thread. These posts always started with the statement 'Point of order!'. One of three possibilities:
1. Same applies in this game and any posts from Tar that start with Poimt of order can be ignored as deliberately misleading/false (apart from red text within those posts maybe?)
2. The opposite applies here as a way to screw with anyone who reads the old games, and only those posts are actually Tar.
3. Neither applies and he's doing it just to screw with us.
Could be that DOTA likes figuring out the rules but this is just another blank post to me. I mean, I want town to put out some reads and tell me why. Even if I disagree at least we can argue about it and try to hash things out. DOTA let’s talk about how we are going to reach the win con which is kill all the scum.
Don't you think it's in towns best interest to know that there might be posts from our mod that are coming from scum? Could be useful in finding scum if a pattern emerges, could not be. Was an interesting twist I found in one of the previous MS games that could apply here as well. As for scumhunting, you were in MvW with me and I urge you to read the Tracker game if you haven't already. I'm terrible at scum hunting. I'm trying to improve on that but it's not going to happen with me throwing every thought that crosses my mind into the thread because that just causes problems for me and for the town. There's more to this but it'll be at the end of the post.
Mind telling why you are against Nacho using his ability? (Quote or something from the Classics is fine.)
In Classic it was early in day 1 and I got into N argument with Rodemy about forcing Nacho to use his Govern and end the day with a no lynch. As the game progressed I got paranoid of the fact that he hadn't proven his claim and yet everyone considered him confirmed town. My paranoia was misplaced and he successfully managed on several occasions to direct town away from mislynching. I'm happy to leave the decision in his hands.
I like this post. I think it’s a solid defense. He references what happened in that game in a truthful way and it feels relevant here.
Quote from D_V »
Unvote Vote RobRoy(Redirect to TS)
I probably should have moved my vote over a long time ago.
I can't tell if hes just a bad new player, or just playing badly or I don't know. Right now though it feels really scummy to me.
TS is clearly not reading the thread all the way and picking and choosing what they answers. TS has no idea what mechanics are in place. The word misrep has been used about 2 Trillion times and I don't think they even know what that word means.
I am going to go read the Tom, TS interactions but I have a feeling I am just going to get angry because TS. One of these day TS will answer 685. As my side comment I am convinced that this makes Businessman scummy too, because TS is literally riding him. With +1 for being Town comments and WOW I'm so smart so is Businessman comments. I am going to go back and read, but my current assumption of his play of all his posts are,
1) Comments that don't make sense because he references things that are silly(Such as me "Blind voting" Jobie.
2) I'm so smart posts.
The more I read and the more I remember how well we did in classic eventually lead me to think this is better.
3) WOW YOU misrep ME BRA posts.
Read my words I said after. After is not only meant to be immediate reactions. You are trying to get into semantics with a timephrase here, is that really what we are talking about here? You think the word after somehow means immediately? Are you the type of player that doesnt think things over?
4) Town Plz give me your scum lists so I can appear town LUWL.
5) Bussinessman is so town posts.
The further into the game we get the more I'm seeing parallels between Classic TS and Mindscrew TS, and TS was town in Classic. (For a fun drinking game, ISO TS in Classic and take a shot everyone misrep comes up. You won't make it past 2 pages )
Ok, he’s come around to me here. But he’s more or less staying aloof. This is giving a town read with a reason, sure but there is no feeling coming from these posts that DOTA has any intention of scum hunting. Just making a few safe statements, talk about the set-ups of previous games and hang out in thread.
Who are his scum reads? He has an FOS on Necarg that was never even spoken about. He has cleared me and agrees with Nacho that Az might be neutral.
And that’s folks. Nothing else in thread. What I see here is a determination not to get his hands dirty. I can see a town side of that being, that he might have an interesting PR that he doesn’t want to jeopardize by putting himself out there that much but ironically I think that might be what’s giving people trepidation. On the scummy side it’s just a bunch of (mainly) void posts.
Will the real DOTA please stand up?
I think my response regarding my ability to scum hunt above applies to this as well.
As for my lack of activity in this game:
1) As with MvW, I've realised that with larger games I struggle to keep up and form strong opinions. I enjoyed Tracker(up until my self-hammer) and I'm enjoying the Shia game. That's not to say that I didn't enjoy MvW or this game, it just takes me longer to get into it.
2) The reason for my v/la has had a big impact on me emotionally and I'm still dealing with the fallout. It hasn't impacted on my available time so much, it's just eating up a lot of brainpower. I can't go into too much detail as it involves an ongoing investigation but the long and short of it is, I'm in the process of building a disciplinary case against one of my most trusted employees that is not going to end well for anyone. And the hearing is on Tuesday.
I think this response seems reasonable from town. I do have to insist that you push reads, particularly scum reads going forward.
@All-Sorry for several posts in a row but I'm usually awake when you folks are sleep, at work, etc. I think we can go forward with Necarg. Who has a problem with voting Necarg now? He has edited some comments (click on Tom's link), it's not substantial and changes nothing. He just doubled down on the "TS is role-fishing" nonsense.
@Nacho-Interesting that you mentioned how you view people that have strong reads on you. I subscribe to the same theory and thing it's the easiest way to learn about people because we know our own roles and can operate from a position of information.
I have a theory you might be scum aligned. Whether you are a scum aligned neutral or not is based on how you dont want to solve the game. Like literally zero interest. Suggests to me that you have an alternate win con.
backpedal time!
seriously. ive literally been asking about that for a full week since you said it, and the best you could come up with is you think i have an alternate win con?
wouldnt i be more likely to want to solve the game as a neutral that doesnt already have the info?
this was a scum slip. im so happy nacho finally forced you to talk about it.
@Nacho-Interesting that you mentioned how you view people that have strong reads on you. I subscribe to the same theory and thing it's the easiest way to learn about people because we know our own roles and can operate from a position of information.
isnt it great how tappings opinion on this changes depending on if hes trying to dismiss me or buddy up to nacho?
I have a theory you might be scum aligned. Whether you are a scum aligned neutral or not is based on how you dont want to solve the game. Like literally zero interest. Suggests to me that you have an alternate win con.
backpedal time!
seriously. ive literally been asking about that for a full week since you said it, and the best you could come up with is you think i have an alternate win con?
wouldnt i be more likely to want to solve the game as a neutral that doesnt already have the info?
this was a scum slip. im so happy nacho finally forced you to talk about it.
There is no backpedal here. I think you might be scumaligned neutral, it's a read I have. I haven't backed off it at all. You are either scum or scumaligned neutral. Exactly as I 've been saying for this whole week. Where is the backpedal Tom? Got caught with your pants down didn't you? And please stop using catch phrases that you don't undersatnd. Backpedaling would imply I made a point before, saw it was bad and went another direction. I'm literally saying the EXACT same thing.
Can someone else appeal to Tom to stop spamming and actually make a quality post? Like he has been called out by me, Arak, Nacho and others for saying things that make no **** sense or just false. Like Jobie obviously made a read, Tom guaranteed he reread (he didn't), he wants to vote for DOTA but he doesn't know why DERP DERP, he claims I'm backpedaling when I have consistently held the exact same position (and feel as strongly about it as ever).
@Nacho-In what world is Tom town here? I can see him making this many mistakes as town. He has a lot of lies to keep track of this game and it's leading to massive amounts of slips.
@Nacho-Interesting that you mentioned how you view people that have strong reads on you. I subscribe to the same theory and thing it's the easiest way to learn about people because we know our own roles and can operate from a position of information.
isnt it great how tappings opinion on this changes depending on if hes trying to dismiss me or buddy up to nacho?
Another misrep! Sweet. These are piling up on you. I don't care if you scum read me at this point because I already know you aren't town (or in the miniscule chance you are just playing one of the worst town games conceivable, and I will scold you mercilessly for your poor play in postgame if we lose because of you). Other than that there isn't much I can do here besides see how the voting mechanic works and then lynch you tomorrow.
You should be well aware that I spend a lot of time reading and interacting with the people who have strong reads on me, this is one of the main points of my meta. But I wouldn't expect you to actually use logic to solve a problem. That would be against YOUR meta.
Tom doesn't deal in facts, but he believes that his word is absolute law.
@Everyone: Would it be okay for everyone who can hear voices/feel presences/anything involving spirits/ghosts/invisibility to let us know ONLY that.
I don't hear things, but some may hear things from me. I'll edit with other responses when I'm back from school.
Your character/role is somehow connected to Smashmouth's "ALL-STAR". I won't be going further into this discovery and you don't have to confirm this. Although I would like you to post more.
The quotes you posted have now been changed to lyrics from "One Week" by the Barenaked Ladies. Mind Screw indeed, but not Smashmouth specific.
In an attempt to try and see things from your point of view I'm now back at post 616 which you said I haven't addressed. Currently not sure what you want from this post. I have Nacho in my lean town pile. I've already told you that proving Nacho's role + revealing info on someone we want to know about + find out who gets lynched when we reach threshold (the person or the person above them) I find this to be a reasonable position to ponder. Not sure if you play Magic but it's like to mulligan or not to mulligan? Before I was leaning mull but now with more time to think I prefer to keep.
By the way, I wont be spending a ton of time talking about the word "after" any more. If you have a problem with that, then tough noodles. You already acknowledged that I was technically correct, which is an understatement. I would go as far as saying you don't exactly understand what "after" means. There is a reason we have modifiers like "just after", "right after", "immediately after", etc. It's because after is an indeterminate. That's all on that.
As for your threat to leave your vote on me till the end of the game. Feel free partner! love to see how you play voteless. I feel no pressure from you.
I am really not sure how to respond to you now. On the one hand, you keep responding to me and posting things, and you're still playing the game. On the other hand, your answers have been extremely unsatisfying.
You definitely changed your opinion about how you would like to use Nacho's ability. You have said that, once he posted details about it, you re-considered over time, and eventually came around. That's fair. However, during the time that you say you were reconsidering, we also had a debate on the topic, during which you defended your original position. When you eventually reversed, you first avoided answering the question about when you changed positions, and then gave an answer that was non-specific. My position is that this likely indicates a scum mindset - that your opinion didn't change as a result of the in-game posts, and that your comments on when your position changed are trying to retroactively justify a mindset that is inconsistent with town.
I'd appreciate comments from others on this, as I don't think there's much more to be shown here. Either you believe Tapping's posts on the matter show scumminess or you don't, and I'd like to hear why or why not.
I agree with RobRoy, I was against Nacho being forced into using his ability in Classic and I'm against it here.
@TS
Quote from TappingStones »
You let me worry about Tom
Can you clarify this statement for me
Interesting, when i came around to this Robroy wanted to jump down my throat. No attack from Robroy on DOTA for the sudden change.
I hadn't noticed an inconsistency before, and consistency, more than position, is what I have found best at finding the non-town mindsets. You're right that he had talked about doing an information pardon at one point, then said that he is against Nacho being forced to use his ability. However, he had specifically talked about doing a pardon on Azrael, which is a special case.
@Everyone: Would it be okay for everyone who can hear voices/feel presences/anything involving spirits/ghosts/invisibility to let us know ONLY that.
I don't hear things, but some may hear things from me. I'll edit with other responses when I'm back from school.
Your character/role is somehow connected to Smashmouth's "ALL-STAR". I won't be going further into this discovery and you don't have to confirm this. Although I would like you to post more.
The quotes you posted have now been changed to lyrics from "One Week" by the Barenaked Ladies. Mind Screw indeed, but not Smashmouth specific.
In an attempt to try and see things from your point of view I'm now back at post 616 which you said I haven't addressed. Currently not sure what you want from this post. I have Nacho in my lean town pile. I've already told you that proving Nacho's role + revealing info on someone we want to know about + find out who gets lynched when we reach threshold (the person or the person above them) I find this to be a reasonable position to ponder. Not sure if you play Magic but it's like to mulligan or not to mulligan? Before I was leaning mull but now with more time to think I prefer to keep.
By the way, I wont be spending a ton of time talking about the word "after" any more. If you have a problem with that, then tough noodles. You already acknowledged that I was technically correct, which is an understatement. I would go as far as saying you don't exactly understand what "after" means. There is a reason we have modifiers like "just after", "right after", "immediately after", etc. It's because after is an indeterminate. That's all on that.
As for your threat to leave your vote on me till the end of the game. Feel free partner! love to see how you play voteless. I feel no pressure from you.
I am really not sure how to respond to you now. On the one hand, you keep responding to me and posting things, and you're still playing the game. On the other hand, your answers have been extremely unsatisfying.
You definitely changed your opinion about how you would like to use Nacho's ability. You have said that, once he posted details about it, you re-considered over time, and eventually came around. That's fair. However, during the time that you say you were reconsidering, we also had a debate on the topic, during which you defended your original position. When you eventually reversed, you first avoided answering the question about when you changed positions, and then gave an answer that was non-specific. My position is that this likely indicates a scum mindset - that your opinion didn't change as a result of the in-game posts, and that your comments on when your position changed are trying to retroactively justify a mindset that is inconsistent with town.
I'd appreciate comments from others on this, as I don't think there's much more to be shown here. Either you believe Tapping's posts on the matter show scumminess or you don't, and I'd like to hear why or why not.
I agree with RobRoy, I was against Nacho being forced into using his ability in Classic and I'm against it here.
@TS
Quote from TappingStones »
You let me worry about Tom
Can you clarify this statement for me
Interesting, when i came around to this Robroy wanted to jump down my throat. No attack from Robroy on DOTA for the sudden change.
I hadn't noticed an inconsistency before, and consistency, more than position, is what I have found best at finding the non-town mindsets. You're right that he had talked about doing an information pardon at one point, then said that he is against Nacho being forced to use his ability. However, he had specifically talked about doing a pardon on Azrael, which is a special case.
its only tunneling if im wrong. otherwise, its nailing it.
Well, it's really tunneling regardless. It's just more excusable if you're right.
--
Still waiting on Hawk to get back. He's got a number of questions out to him, and is certainly top 2 on my scumlist.
Hand-waving away your inconsistency, that is,bot very towny RR. He literally did the same type of about face as me, and how is it more excusable to use it on Az? That doesnt make any sense.
You are stretching really hard to scum read me here and it just comes across as fake.
Like your whole case is based on your own misinterpretation of the word "after". Can you really expect anyone besides Tom or DV to run with you here?
Now if we could only get you to apply the same extreme standards on others this game your positions might be justifiable.
Currently you just have me laughing and feeling no pressure. If Im scum why cant you and Tom put together a case that isn't terrible?
Plus I think scum!TS would just flat outwork you.
On to other things, what is this Hawk case you speak of?
You definitely changed your opinion about how you would like to use Nacho's ability. You have said that, once he posted details about it, you re-considered over time, and eventually came around. That's fair. However, during the time that you say you were reconsidering, we also had a debate on the topic, during which you defended your original position. When you eventually reversed, you first avoided answering the question about when you changed positions, and then gave an answer that was non-specific. My position is that this likely indicates a scum mindset - that your opinion didn't change as a result of the in-game posts, and that your comments on when your position changed are trying to retroactively justify a mindset that is inconsistent with town.
Since you asked, I will chime in. Ignoring overall play which I think is just terrible. TS has wobbled on pretty much everything he has to say. For example look at Tom and His interactions. Every time Tom calls him on anything, he changes his tune just enough for it to "Make sense" and then calls it a misrepresentation of what he is saying. If one was to look at the data for TS I am certain that his most used word is misrep, and frankly this just isn't a viable defense. Both him and Imabussinessman have done this. I for one question the logic in it and how we are accepting this as town behavior.
To make this more clear I feel that good points have been brought up against both of them and their responses are basically "LALALALALAALALAA MISREP", then when questioned later on it, "I proved this wrong, it was a misrep and refuse to talk about anything further." I don't know if they are both just dumb and think that this is a viable solution or are purposefully playing this way. Either way, its downright bullying and in no way helps the town. I would also like to point out that we have been playing for about two weeks now and have made no progress in the game what so ever other than a few vital pieces of information being gleaned. We need to start making progress, the problem being that the two most scummy players people are ignoring, because they claim to have "refuted" any point made against them even though they really are just saying "That is not the case". So, when talking about avoiding answering a question it just isn't the ones that he hasn't answered, he has avoided many many questions in the form of this ridiculous defense by saying that everything is a misrep.
Finally, TS keeps calling Tom a liar, and is using this to make a case on Tom being anti-town aligned(Even though he claimed neutral for a long time, then just recently changed that to neutral scum and claims that was how it always was, hint it wasn't). And ignores where bussinessman directly lied about me, and once again keeps misrepresenting that situation as though I was denying that I changed my avatar, hint again I didn't. Actually, the more that I think about it every conversation that I and Tom have had he has excused of us misrepresenting him, while he himself has either purposefully or not misunderstood what we were saying. After a while it moves away from woeful incompetence, and becomes purposeful.
TappingStones - One of the big assumptions that I'm making in this read is that TS would take particular pleasure in dismantling cases and pushing people as scum; I think he'd view Tom as a liability if they were scum together and an easy mislynch if he were scum against him because of their history together. As a result, I find TS "taking his ball and going home" in this particular scenario to be far more likely to be coming from TS as town than TS as scum: as scum, TS would be more willing to engage Tom back and clog up the thread and would probably focus on other players a bit less than he does normally (which isn't quite the case). I also feel like his anger and frustration this game seems pretty genuine: I don't think the D_V getting blocked, telling tom he would ignore him and then not ignore him and that whole exchange would be as likely to happen if TS was scum; I think he'd feel more calm knowing that he could get them lynched and it would help his win condition, and I think he'd feel confident that he could make that happen.
I am going to come in here and nip this in the butt. Ignoring anyone in a game is anti town as you are depriving interaction and yourself of information.
In an attempt to try and see things from your point of view I'm now back at post 616 which you said I haven't addressed. Currently not sure what you want from this post. I have Nacho in my lean town pile. I've already told you that proving Nacho's role + revealing info on someone we want to know about + find out who gets lynched when we reach threshold (the person or the person above them) I find this to be a reasonable position to ponder. Not sure if you play Magic but it's like to mulligan or not to mulligan? Before I was leaning mull but now with more time to think I prefer to keep.
By the way, I wont be spending a ton of time talking about the word "after" any more. If you have a problem with that, then tough noodles. You already acknowledged that I was technically correct, which is an understatement. I would go as far as saying you don't exactly understand what "after" means. There is a reason we have modifiers like "just after", "right after", "immediately after", etc. It's because after is an indeterminate. That's all on that.
As for your threat to leave your vote on me till the end of the game. Feel free partner! love to see how you play voteless. I feel no pressure from you.
I am really not sure how to respond to you now. On the one hand, you keep responding to me and posting things, and you're still playing the game. On the other hand, your answers have been extremely unsatisfying.
You definitely changed your opinion about how you would like to use Nacho's ability. You have said that, once he posted details about it, you re-considered over time, and eventually came around. That's fair. However, during the time that you say you were reconsidering, we also had a debate on the topic, during which you defended your original position. When you eventually reversed, you first avoided answering the question about when you changed positions, and then gave an answer that was non-specific. My position is that this likely indicates a scum mindset - that your opinion didn't change as a result of the in-game posts, and that your comments on when your position changed are trying to retroactively justify a mindset that is inconsistent with town.
I'd appreciate comments from others on this, as I don't think there's much more to be shown here. Either you believe Tapping's posts on the matter show scumminess or you don't, and I'd like to hear why or why not.
I agree with RobRoy, I was against Nacho being forced into using his ability in Classic and I'm against it here.
@TS
Quote from TappingStones »
You let me worry about Tom
Can you clarify this statement for me
Interesting, when i came around to this Robroy wanted to jump down my throat. No attack from Robroy on DOTA for the sudden change.
I hadn't noticed an inconsistency before, and consistency, more than position, is what I have found best at finding the non-town mindsets. You're right that he had talked about doing an information pardon at one point, then said that he is against Nacho being forced to use his ability. However, he had specifically talked about doing a pardon on Azrael, which is a special case.
<snip>
--
Still waiting on Hawk to get back. He's got a number of questions out to him, and is certainly top 2 on my scumlist.
Hand-waving away your inconsistency, that is,bot very towny RR. He literally did the same type of about face as me, and how is it more excusable to use it on Az? That doesnt make any sense.
First off - you do know you can edit quotes while responding to them, right? Obviously rewriting what someone said is horrible, but you can do something like what I demonstrated here in order to remove portions of a quoted post for readability.
Azrael is not a normal player in this game, so I'm more okay with people making exceptions for plans where they involve him. His stated opinions regarding players on the player list are not demonstrably inconsistent.
You are stretching really hard to scum read me here and it just comes across as fake.
Like your whole case is based on your own misinterpretation of the word "after". Can you really expect anyone besides Tom or DV to run with you here?
Now if we could only get you to apply the same extreme standards on others this game your positions might be justifiable.
Currently you just have me laughing and feeling no pressure. If Im scum why cant you and Tom put together a case that isn't terrible?
Plus I think scum!TS would just flat outwork you.
Imma back this up to some theory, since you are either not getting or pretending not to get why what I'm asking about is significant.
Townies are uninformed. They do not know who the scum are. They form opinions about the game, and those opinions change, but they generally change in response to specific events. Someone makes a post that seems really scummy, and opinions change. Someone points out a flaw with a proposed plan, and opinions are altered. But townies, generally, have reasons for why their opinions change.
Scum are informed. Aside from a neutral or two, they already know the affiliation of the players in the game. They don't have opinions, only facades. They generally don't care who gets lynched as long as it isn't their buddies, which can lead to a very mutable set of priorities. They make a decision because it seems to have a benefit at the time, and then try and justify it afterwards.
This is why I was asking when you changed your mind on the Nacho-pardon plan. Sure, it isn't an opinion about a specific player's affiliation, but it was still a rather abrupt about-face, which raised some red flags for me. When I inquired, you first ignored the question - and please let me know if you want me to relink my timeline, which shows that, unlike what you tried to insist, you did avoid it. When pressed, you said it happened after one of Nacho's posts. When I pointed out that the timing on that didn't work - that his post could not have been the most recent thing to happen for your conversion - you started hiding behind the word "after", insisting that a technically correct but unhelpful answer was gospel, and that I was scum for doubting you.
There are two explanations for your behaviour. Either you are telling the truth about Nacho's post 546 being the main reason you came around on the plan, in which case I need to believe that you gave more weight to that one fact than to the posts made in the day-and-three-quarters between then and when you clarified your position in 649 - a time that included discussions on the topic with me. Or I can believe that you are lying about when you came around - that you either misremembered when Nacho shared the information, or just plain didn't care, or are otherwise trying to retroactively justify the decision. I'm inclined towards the latter - and that is a scum mindset, not a town one.
On to other things, what is this Hawk case you speak of?
The Hawk case, as I've referenced a couple times, is the full case I'd like to post on him. There are a couple posts of his that I definitely find scummy, and a couple others that I want to hear about before I decide if they should be included in an attack on him. I asked him these back in 618, but he hasn't made a reasonable post since then. Between that absence and the interactions with you, I've been holding off on getting back to Hawk.
@GJYou mentioned how weird it seemed to you and I definitely agree. How can Ghosting call Tom confirmed scum and then in the next post confirmed town? As you said, he should be back at a null read if anything.
If he is siting as something Tare is forbidding, I am guessing that it has to do with an ongoing game. The problem I have with that is meta is never 100% guarantee, and I personally loathe meta as an argument. That's why I thought it was role aligned, but if Tare is refusing to let Ghosting further explain, it means it likely isn't role inductive. Having enough doubts that I am fine just leaving him alone for now.
Quote from Ghosting »
Why are you trying to misconstrue what happened? It's been repeated probably 10 times now that my "confirmed scum" read does not at all apply now; it never existed
@Ghosting-I have astrange feeling about the voting system. Especially considering you (and i) think Tom is scum, and Tom changed the numbers. Dont you think this will be a mondscrew? Im pretty sure I will grt lynched if enough people vote for me. Id rather we test this another way.
Going to retract my vote for the time being only for this reason. I am still 100% confident that Tom is scum, and am hoping Taredas replies soon so I can supply the proof and we lynch our first scum of the day.
Unvote.
100% confidant never comes on a potential meta read especially not on day 1. Not being able to mention it from Tare means it's role related. You might not be able to say why, but you should still never let go of Tom. Explain why you said "100 percent confidant" and then why you tried to brush it off as "never existing"?
Quote from Nacho »
Vote: Nachomamma8 (redirect to Necarg)
I do have kind of weird thoughts about there being a majority on me in order to lynch Necarg, but it also feels like there's good support behind him and that he has a pretty solid chance to be lynched, so I think he's the play for today and feel confident enough on my setup spec where I don't think I'll be magically lynched instead. When I made my earlier catchup, I was sort of on the fence between revealing and lynching him; after rereading some ISOs and getting a better idea on where I stand on everyone, I'd be happier with killing him outright.
Why not push Hawk though? As of now, he is actually on my list of "forgot this person was in the game"? Admittedly, Necarg is probably someone I would rather lose if wrong, but the few posts he made felt different than MvW. That said, he really isn't on the frontline, and I have almost forgot he was in this game a few times.
It's looking like I won't have a lot of time (of any) today or tomorrow: RobRoy, if you haven't already, could you look over and give your opinion on my reads? I'll give the TS case the attention it deserves when I have a little more time.
I'm happy to push Hawk, but I'm also tired of a bunch of scattered votes with no lynch intent and feel like Necarg is the wagon on a scummy person that's likeliest to go through.
TS has wobbled on pretty much everything he has to say. For example look at Tom and His interactions. Every time Tom calls him on anything, he changes his tune just enough for it to "Make sense" and then calls it a misrepresentation of what he is saying.
The quotes you posted have now been changed to lyrics from "One Week" by the Barenaked Ladies. Mind Screw indeed, but not Smashmouth specific.
this is my seed of doubt with necarg. hes having a lot of fun with the editing instead of posting.
like, hes actively making himself suspicious by making us have to scour the thread for his changes and never be able to trust his posts are what he actually said.
Oh hey, IMAB responded to my vote and points against him. 3 days after, which leads me to a question, did you miss my post or intentionally wait that long to respond? Makes it somewhat harder to have a back and forth when someone does that.
None of his posts have felt unreliable to me at all, regardless of his PR. Sure, sometimes the words used are a bit more grandiose I guess? But the message that he is trying to convey is abundantly clear. The fact that you attempt to use this as proof that he is wrong is one of the most troublesome parts of the case against you. Like, you are attacking the method by which he is casing you, instead of attacking the case, or even DV! It makes me think you aren't responding to the case because you don't actually have a response, which just makes me think you are scum more.
Like I told you for, something like the third time, D_V's "case" was rebutted before he even made it.
Except apparently for responding to D_V. I really hate just blanket ignoring a player, especially when he doesn't deserve that from you. He is just trying to play the game, and quitting like that just grinds my gears in the worst way. The only time I could maybe see that is if he was making personal insults against you, but that't not what he did at all. It reeks to me of not having a response to his case, and as such you are just trying to find a way to respond to it at all.
Vote: Jobie to vote IMAB (though they are backwards alphabetically in the player list)
D_V's case is embarrasingly bad. I don't have to refute it because it's a case so bad that it gets refuted by even casual observation.
For example D_V insists that I lied about him changing his avatar. But wait....
In the interest of getting our facts right... you did switch avatars at some point since the start of this game day, correct, D_V? I'm pretty sure I recall it being different at the beginning. Was it just the once, or have you switched more than once?
D_V?
Says IABM is lying but then admits later that he did in fact change his avatar.
Damn. There are witnesses so D_V changes his story to that he never changed his avatar at all to he only changed it once! Looks like D_V is taking his cues from George Orwell's 1984. Next he'll tell us that he's never changed his avatar at all and it's always been the way it is now just like how we've always been at war with Eastasia...
D_V insists that I was accusing people of making cases against people before they got their role pm's. Let's review from before...
How is voting someone outside of the game a scum tell, when they have not received their role pm yet?
The game started as of post 21.
Proph voted someone "outside of the game" in post 27 and jobie voted someone "outside of the game" in post 31. It's like you're on another planet. Are you even reading this game? I look forward to your posting restriction coming to an end because this is nonsense.
Nope. The "voting outside the game" was based on vote AFTER the game had started. I addressed the accusation D_V is dredging up in post 74. Over 500+ posts ago. Then D_V tries to double down except...I also addressed this further in post 328. So D_V's false accusations have been addressed not just once but twice!
And these are just using posts that are already in the game to refute D_V's accusations with casual observations. I don't even have to go into details because D_V's false accusations are just blatant. I know that there's more to d_v drek but he's on ignore and it's not even worth reading.
Lastly D_V insists that "he's not here" because he can't get votes. But it's entirely possible that the votes d_v gets are simply invisible. As an aside lol@tomsloger for being so naive as to not realize such a possibility.
Again. None of this is ultimately relevant to me because D_V is not able to control his own content. I'd rather put him on ignore than read unreliable posts. Here's what I do know. Townies and scum can make garbage cases. Scum are much more likely to agree with garbage cases than townies. And lol at you thinking I'm afraid of a case and chose to dismiss it as opposed to addressing it. It's the type of case that dismisses itself if you read the game.
So my scumreads are...
Bur
DoTArchon
Anaklusmos
maybe scum
Nachomamma8
Ghosting
tomsloger
D_v'S entire case was refuted 100 posts before he even made it. Literally every point she has brought up was addressed. T/S said that D_V is trying to cause discord and it her "case" was a textbook example. However the fact that you're ignoring this completely and instead insisting that I'm not addressing her "case" because I'm afraid is patently ridiculous.
I told you to read the thread and you could verify it yourself and you did not. I even quoted the above post directly to you and you did not so that you could get a notification and you didn't have anything to say about it. Scum like to attach themselves to trash cases and that's exactly what you've done. And fyi I already told you that I figured d_v was trolling for reactions.
d v is trolling for reactions. I look forward to him getting into the game and doing something useful. rvs is over.
Literally right near the start of the game. I'm not scumreading d_v but I definitely see you as scum. I know d_v was making hay about other points too but those have also already been refuted literally before she even made her "case". If you had read the game like I suggested you'd have known all this. This makes it look like you're not reading to solve the game. It also looks like you're trying to hitch yourself to a wagon early so that in the event that a mislynch goes through you can make yourself look better by placement.
Firstly, how did you think D_V became female? You refer to him as 'him' in the post you quote me from yourself that 'refutes' his points. I'm not even questioning that for your alignment, I just am completely confused how you could think a different gender for a player than the one you said in a post you quote.
Secondly, if you were paying attention, you would have noticed that he only changed his avatar once this game. Wasn't hard to tell, as his old avatar was mostly white, and this is mostly black. Getting into a pissing match about the syntax around the number feels worthless. Also, in that post that refutes his case, you don't actually quote DV at all. You show RR asking the question, and TS saying DV lied. Sure, I can go look up his answer and parse the sequence of events, but you presenting it in such a way is disheartening. If he was proven to be lying, why not add that? Why quote TS calling out DV, instead of where he admits to changing it?
Thirdly, you make the point of me reading the thread will refute DV's case. Say for a moment that I agree with that (I don't, for the record), doesn't it feel shady to tell other people to read the thread instead of actually refuting the case? Your "refuting" of his case has consisted mostly of just posting posts and saying "Look. See?" Sure, you are responding to it, but you aren't SAYING anything. What you say to refute it, and how you say it, are critically important pieces in trying to gleam someones alignment when someone posts a case against them. By just posting posts and saying its refuted just makes it feel like you aren't responding to his case.
Side note, why is trolling for reactions scummy? I tend to believe its slightly townie because that requires the person pushing for reactions to step out and push someone, whereas scum would tend to prefer to hide. Is it scummy in this case because he is/was trolling you for reactions? I agree you point it out early in the game, my response is "Why is that scummy?"
Speaking of which, if trolling for reactions is scummy, then claiming twice that I am not reading the thread would fit the bill, no? Liking my vote right where it is.
@Az I wouldn't be opposed to TS, would prefer IAMB but he has had enough non-answers for me to lean scum on him.
@Imab: I thought I answered everything, what'd I miss? I have no problem answering whatever.
Curse ate my post not just once but twice. I'm really f'ing pissed right now. tl/dr you've answered very little of the points I brought up in post 666.
Differences in Bur's play is highlighted in 769.
4. I look forward to you trying to Justify Nacho being a popular scumread in the face of the slew of townreads he was getting.
You said I was hopping on "popular wagons".
5. Really? So you mean you actually saw my statement in post 496 about why I wanted to vote Az, saw the explaination that Az cannot be voted, and you literally expected my vote to stay on Azrael? Really? That's what you think I should have done? Because almost immediately after post 496 I saw Bur's fake and lazy T/S list and that seemed to be a much more pressing concern. Speaking of Bur, let me go back to point #3. Bur was also taking a ton of suspicion which I wasn't down with until Bur made post 536. And even after Bur made post 536, It wasn't until she responded poorly that I got suspicious. This also disproves your "hopping on popular wagons" idea because Bur was actually losing attention and not being focused on at the time. But you knew all this. That's why you brought it up, right?
Oh hey, IMAB responded to my vote and points against him. 3 days after, which leads me to a question, did you miss my post or intentionally wait that long to respond? Makes it somewhat harder to have a back and forth when someone does that.
If you were reading the game (expect this to be a theme...) you'd know that I was attending to other things much more important than highlighting how you're scum.
Firstly, how did you think D_V became female? You refer to him as 'him' in the post you quote me from yourself that 'refutes' his points. I'm not even questioning that for your alignment, I just am completely confused how you could think a different gender for a player than the one you said in a post you quote.
Secondly, if you were paying attention, you would have noticed that he only changed his avatar once this game. Wasn't hard to tell, as his old avatar was mostly white, and this is mostly black. Getting into a pissing match about the syntax around the number feels worthless. Also, in that post that refutes his case, you don't actually quote DV at all. You show RR asking the question, and TS saying DV lied. Sure, I can go look up his answer and parse the sequence of events, but you presenting it in such a way is disheartening. If he was proven to be lying, why not add that? Why quote TS calling out DV, instead of where he admits to changing it?
Thirdly, you make the point of me reading the thread will refute DV's case. Say for a moment that I agree with that (I don't, for the record), doesn't it feel shady to tell other people to read the thread instead of actually refuting the case? Your "refuting" of his case has consisted mostly of just posting posts and saying "Look. See?" Sure, you are responding to it, but you aren't SAYING anything. What you say to refute it, and how you say it, are critically important pieces in trying to gleam someones alignment when someone posts a case against them. By just posting posts and saying its refuted just makes it feel like you aren't responding to his case.
Side note, why is trolling for reactions scummy? I tend to believe its slightly townie because that requires the person pushing for reactions to step out and push someone, whereas scum would tend to prefer to hide. Is it scummy in this case because he is/was trolling you for reactions? I agree you point it out early in the game, my response is "Why is that scummy?"
Speaking of which, if trolling for reactions is scummy, then claiming twice that I am not reading the thread would fit the bill, no? Liking my vote right where it is.
1. For some reason I got the impression that d_v might be female. I can't ask them about it right now because d_v is being ignored right now.
2. I can't quote d_v. d_v is on ignore right now. This has been mentioned or commented on by roughly a third of the players in this game. Reading much? And the point is that initially d_v claimed that I "lied" when I said that the avatar was changed multiple times. I'd be willing to accept that I was mistaken but that's not the point d_v was making. d_v jumped up and said that I lied about it. It got pointed out that several players knew that d_v had changed the avatar and so d_v's modified the point from "never changed the avatar" to "only changed it once". Hence my highlighting that there were witnesses to the change. Furthermore I used quotes from other players because d_v is on ignore. Since there were other players who knew that d_v changed the avatar their comments were sufficient. This is what forced d_v to modify the statement in the first place: literal witness testimony. Oh and btw, did I mention that d_v is on ignore and that means I literally can't quote d_v? Repeating myself my allow this information to be more easily absorbed...
3. If you start counting upward from 1 to 1000, the numbers "74" and "348" come before "493". d_v comes out of nowhere to try and make a case arguing points that have literally already been addressed along with some false accusations for added spice. This is what caused me to put d_v on ignore.. The links to the posts in question are in the quotes that I helpfully provided to you on at least two separate occasions. Twice. And you ignored it both times.
4. Did I say trolling for reaction is scummy? No, I most certainly did not. You're not reading the game. whoops, I said it again. I was suspicious of d_v (and hansanator)for NOT INTERROGATING EACH OTHER SINCE THEY HAD CONFLICTING STATEMENTS ABOUT THE GAMESTATE. I'll say it again for repetition: you're not reading the game. Also d_v is on ignore.<----I just threw that in there to help you understand why I'm not using their quotes.
5. I'm not accusing you of trolling for reactions. I'm flat out stating that you're hiding in plain sight scum. Putting in the minimal amount of effort to not be considered lurking but you aren't doing anything except hitching your wagon to a garbage case.
Oh hey, IMAB responded to my vote and points against him. 3 days after, which leads me to a question, did you miss my post or intentionally wait that long to respond? Makes it somewhat harder to have a back and forth when someone does that.
Take particular note of the accusation that I intentionally waited to respond when I had mentioned that I was doing a re-read of Tracker mafia. I also revealed that I had re-read of two other games. Tell me what you think of Anaklusmo's paragraph. That statement..."intentionally wait that long"... just does not feel town at all.
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youre sort of making it impossible not to though. refusing to acknowledge why i think youre scum.
and i apologize profusely for not remembering dota. i know hes been a huge part of this game and its unforgivable
that said, i did miss you talking about the contradiction since you framed it as a vague attack on robroy within a dota pbpa. my bad.
Its ok you got called out by the guy that isn't even reading the thread.
But don't worry hes going to make about 30 more references to what a great player he is.
Apparently you dont understand what tunneling means...
Tom you posted that you were down for a DOTA lynch, but you didnt even know why. How would town ever be in that situation? Honest question, Im not even trying to play gottcha this time. How do you get to a place where you are just throwing out names for a lynch?
Reading through your previous town gamed I noticed you were MUCH more vocal about getting lurkers involved, here it feels cursory. What's with the change?
hes been real forgettable bro.
now would you like to answer any of my questions? like, ever?
straight up, i would love to townread you. that would make you significantly nicer to me and probably change your opinion of me.
but you are absolutely making it impossible.
why am i neutral? why did you phrase it that way? do you think hans is hard to read? did you not realize hans couldnt answer your questions without revealing his role? how am i inconsistent/not trying to solve the game?
some of these questions are 12 pages old.
I have more input on this particular exchange, but first:
TS, could you explain why you thought that Tom was neutral way back when?
I liked Proph for town and the kill came out of nowhere, leaving us guessing what had happened. So yes, it sucked. I'll respond to the rest in more detail at the end of the post.
Some of that paranoia from MvW carried over, I mean, Nacho gets governor 2 games in a row? As he posted more in the thread though I realised I was being silly, it's a ballsy claim to make when it's so easily disproven.
Testing something role-related.
I'd like some clarity on the statement since, if you're right and Tom is scum, then he's everyone's problem and not just yours. Seemed like an odd thing to say and I wanted to hear more from you on it.
Don't you think it's in towns best interest to know that there might be posts from our mod that are coming from scum? Could be useful in finding scum if a pattern emerges, could not be. Was an interesting twist I found in one of the previous MS games that could apply here as well. As for scumhunting, you were in MvW with me and I urge you to read the Tracker game if you haven't already. I'm terrible at scum hunting. I'm trying to improve on that but it's not going to happen with me throwing every thought that crosses my mind into the thread because that just causes problems for me and for the town. There's more to this but it'll be at the end of the post. I think my response regarding my ability to scum hunt above applies to this as well.
As for my lack of activity in this game:
1) As with MvW, I've realised that with larger games I struggle to keep up and form strong opinions. I enjoyed Tracker(up until my self-hammer) and I'm enjoying the Shia game. That's not to say that I didn't enjoy MvW or this game, it just takes me longer to get into it.
2) The reason for my v/la has had a big impact on me emotionally and I'm still dealing with the fallout. It hasn't impacted on my available time so much, it's just eating up a lot of brainpower. I can't go into too much detail as it involves an ongoing investigation but the long and short of it is, I'm in the process of building a disciplinary case against one of my most trusted employees that is not going to end well for anyone. And the hearing is on Tuesday.
The majority doesn't believe that I'm the scummiest. The people who have any form of a scumread on me whatsoever is you/Bur, and I wouldn't just roll over and allow myself to be lynched in order to make you/Bur feel better.
2) You didn't refute my point.
If you truly believed that we couldn't speculate on things before hard evidence was provided, then you wouldn't be lynching Day 1 and you wouldn't be talking about my power until it was proven. The name of the game is making educated guesses on things that you don't have hard evidence for.
Why are you asking this question?
The only way that I could answer it seriously is by spouting out a big theory-related paragraph on scumhunting theory, which seems a waste of our time currently. If you don't believe that my scumhunting is effective, highlight points you disagree with and explain why.
I think it's more likely that the votecount displays are honest than simply a red herring: there have been a couple of times in mindscrew games in the past where there have been "actions target the person on the playerlist below the intended target" (worded poorly, but I hope you can figure out what I'm driving at), and I don't think Tar would design a game where town got punished for paying close attention to votecounts.
Again, the wiki article is a little misleading - the argument is that the read that I have is an incorrect read that I wouldn't have as town, which functions fine as an early-game argument.
I'll make a cut and dry reads list in my next post.
The two wagons that I'm most willing to support today are Hawk (vote Tom), or Necarg (vote me). I have a better scumread on Hawk and would probably not reveal alignment there unless other people would be in strong support of a reveal there, but would most likely reveal Necarg because I still have doubts on him being scum based on his early posting.
my only scum game is the first time i really payed attention to this, but ive also never in my mafia career had as simple a list as two people. (actually maybe now, is anyone scumreading me besides TS and necarg? there must be someone else...)
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Ghosting - I spectated Saw Mafia while it was happening, and I would strongly agree with Tom's assertion that Ghosting has a decent tendency to hide when scum. I think that the 100% scumread on Tom to a townread later progressed in a very genuine way: I don't think that this is something you'd coach your scumbuddy to do, and I very sincerely doubt that Ghosting came up with that himself, although I'd love to here particular details as they become available to share.
I also liked his interaction with me after my initial post on him, particularly the bits where he talked about "liking" my look into him - I'd expect him to be discrediting, fighting back against the case as scum but his response showed that he really was reading/processing my lines of attack on him. This reason is far less important than the first - he'd only be a leaning townread without that particular bit.
Tomsloger - The strongest thing that made me thought that he was town is the depth of his thought process outside his TS read (which is the only trepidation I have on him: I don't really follow his TS read as well as I should, although I expect a lion's share of the blame in that particular scenario is mine). In particular, I really liked his early townreads on Hans and DV: the DV one in particular came at a time when no one was townreading him, but the observations themselves (the "post restriction" + missing from the playerlist making him a bastard-y person to slot in as scum") seemed pretty on-point and reasonable in a place where I thought scum!Tom was having weird reads just to fulfill his weird reads quota. I also think he's put a solid amount of effort into game-solving at this point: I can follow 90% of his reads and I can tell you where he stands and those reads and why and there's no real place where I think his reasons are poor enough where I think they might be faked.
I also think that his play centered around his role has seemed town enough: I think it's a weak part of his scum game because his perspectives on roleclaiming have been odd, but his reveal now came at a point that was natural and beneficial to town; there have been no red flags otherwise.
iamabusinessman - The main thing that makes me townread iamabusinessman is the passion imbued into every single one of his reads; it's a playstyle that is incredibly difficult to replicate as scum and I'm not quite sure that it would come across so naturally if he was scum here. In particular, I think that the way his push evolved on me was excellently done if he was scum: he jumped from a 0 to 100 scumread on me when I first pushed the case against me, and then didn't back off or slow his roll once I townread him in response; instead, his read on me sort of went stale after a little while (although it still exists). I like that all subsequent pushes (particularly the one on DV) have been on people others don't have as a popular target, and that he's still managed to cast a wide net, which is something else I think he'd have trouble faking as scum.
D_V - The biggest thing that gives me such a strong town feeling is his response to iamabusinessman: while anger isn't always alignment-indicative, there is a sort of exasperation with IMAB's posts that I think is coming from town as opposed to scum. If D_V was scum, I think he would be more reasonable in his push on IMAB - IMAB lied about a detail, he is scum. Instead, D_V has gotten flustered, angry, and has constantly appealed to the town in order to bring more attention to the case in general, which I find a town action.
TappingStones - One of the big assumptions that I'm making in this read is that TS would take particular pleasure in dismantling cases and pushing people as scum; I think he'd view Tom as a liability if they were scum together and an easy mislynch if he were scum against him because of their history together. As a result, I find TS "taking his ball and going home" in this particular scenario to be far more likely to be coming from TS as town than TS as scum: as scum, TS would be more willing to engage Tom back and clog up the thread and would probably focus on other players a bit less than he does normally (which isn't quite the case). I also feel like his anger and frustration this game seems pretty genuine: I don't think the D_V getting blocked, telling tom he would ignore him and then not ignore him and that whole exchange would be as likely to happen if TS was scum; I think he'd feel more calm knowing that he could get them lynched and it would help his win condition, and I think he'd feel confident that he could make that happen.
Gentleman Johnny: There are a few reasons that add up to me having a town read on GJ. I like his original interaction with me over the governor role (in particular, linking me to his scum QT where he said that if he was town, me acting like I was as governor would piss him off). For one, it's an interaction that's leagues better than his interaction with me last time he was governor, and second of all, if he was trying to behave differently towards me in order to get me to townread him, I think he'd be far less blatant about it. The weirdest part of me townreading him is my based on my read of his voice: I'm pretty confident I know who it is but won't out it unless they want me to, and I think their approach to me/the game thus far is pretty decent. The third piece to the GJ town puzzle (and probably the strongest piece for me personally) is his reaction to the Ghosting situation: it seemed genuine as hell, and I liked how he decided to let it ride a bit after it became clear he was misunderstanding what happened (and I liked that he cleared up that he thought it was role-based: if he was scum, he could have pushed Ghosting on a line of thought Ghosting couldn't have defended himself from which I think is a bit cheap and feel GJ would feel the same way so this point isn't as strong).
TOWN TOWN:
KillJoy - The big thing that makes me feel town on this slot is the push on me. It's not a line of thought that anyone else is really buying, but the way he's been pushing and selling it makes me think town; in particular, the focus on the setup speculation point feels genuine, and the "overly helpful" point being brought out on me because he caught someone in another game seems genuine enough. I also like him looking for other ways to settle his read on me if it turns out that he can't lynch me (aka the asking me if I'd pardon myself question): IMAB had a couple of similar approaches to me in his last game, and it feels similar here.
RobRoy: The big reason I have a townread on this slot is mostly because of how reasonable, thorough he's been with his reads. The main reason I have trepidation with a read on this is because it's mostly not based on specifics: I have no familiarity with him as a player, so I don't know whether this is just his style or something else.
To his benefit, I feel like the timing of his vote on TS feels genuine; he could have made a low-hanging fruit push on IMAB for lying, he gets huge points for the early hawk vote (it seems like the only vote that I could feel confident in hitting scum with), and the other big thing that makes me think town is simply based on the depth of thought of his TS read: he's constantly been analyzing and reanalyzing and putting real effort into that read, which is time I don't think RobRoy invests as scum; it's more likely to me that he picks a side on the TS-Tom debate and goes with it.
TOWN (?):
Bur - The two main things that I like from Bur is his interaction with Hunt (and specifically seeking to interact with Hunt - I think that Bur would feel he got an inside look at Hunt's head based on them hydraing together, and it definitely makes sense that that would be one of the first people he sought out interaction with. I also like his interaction with my governor claim: he started out saying that I was very likely town based on the claim (when he said that it wasn't "role related info", he meant that his own role didn't tell him that I was town which I also find townish in a way), then, when I said it was possible that I wouldn't govern today, Bur sort of overreacted and emphasized how important it was to him personally that I pardon today.
Huntzilla - I know he's been swamped lately which makes this read a little less confident than it would be otherwise, but I was actually a big fan of his early game posts (317 especially). I liked how he followed up on Necarg's non-specific TS push (it definitely looked like an opportunistic push), I liked his question to hawk on why tom imploding was bad; it wasn't something that I thought of before and ends up being a pretty solid point. I loved the confidence in his Ghosting/Necarg pushes; this is something that dropped out the past couple of times I saw him as scum, and I liked him taking the position that Tom-TS was TvT; I thought that picking sides was a trap that a weaker scum player could easily fall into, and he didn't. The only thing that makes this read not so strong is that there aren't enough posts like 317.
Hansanator - I thought his followup posts after the claim were fine, in particular I thought that he would be unlikely to take the "TS is probably too whiny to be pushing a mislynch" angle as scum because there's a level of confidence involved in approaching that read as scum that I'm not sure Hans would have. This read doesn't really have much substance behind it because
Anaklusmos - Weakest of my townreads by far (actually started in the scumread section before I read his posts!). He seems to be making a real effort to gamesolve, which I like. Another bit of a strange towntell comes from his #157, where he says that he has no idea what's going on in the game but he loves it: that seemed genuine to me; normally, when scum pull the whole "I have no idea what to think about this game" spiel they're using it as an excuse to being completely unable to provide any reads whatsoever, but the way that this one was framed made me feel like it was more likely to be genuine. I really wish that he would take more definitive stances on things, but I have a feeling that sort of posting isn't his style, so I'm willing to give him room to work for now.
DARTH DOESN'T POST *****:
Darth_Melvin - I wouldn't want to lynch this slot just for the sake of Tar avoiding having to find a replacement; the only time when I'm willing to do that is when the game is already POE'd down, which this one sure as hell isn't.
NOT TOWNREADING IN ANY WAY, DON'T WANT TO LYNCH:
DoTArchon - I've found that while DoT tends to get extremely overwhelmed in large games where there are a lot of players he needs to keep tabs on, he tends to step it up, post a bunch, be obviously town in the later game. I would love love love love if he posted more so I could actually get a solid read on him before he dies, but I'm willing to give him room to work for now.
NOT TOWNREADING, WILLING TO LYNCH:
leukovirus - This is the weakest of all of my reads in this group and would rather we lynch someone else in that group, but I don't think running him up today would be a bad play. I was OK with his push against Tom earlier, but after later review, this sort of looks like picking a side and choosing it (his case against Tom is "I don't like how you are pushing TS as scum over one simple question"). I really like his "no lynch is better than a mislynch" part of his #234 because it seems like such a strong copout, which is an especially large red flag because of how few reads he's actually given this game. The reason this read is so incredibly weak is due to the fact that he doesn't really have much mafia experience and didn't really do anything in Saw, but he also had a certain pluck about him in his push on Tom that he's been very strongly lacking here (except when correcting Bur on pronouns, which I don't think is relevant to the game).
Jobie - Almost did less than Darth_Melvin has! Which I don't think is relevant because he just got married. The thing he did that I didn't like was the easy read on Tom; don't think he'd do it so effortlessly if he was town and actually trying to figure out Tom's alignment.
Necarg - So, the original reason I was townreading him (he was having fun with the ability to edit posts) was bad. Tom correctly pointed out that it was a mirror to why I was townreading Hans, and I think that he'd have that kind of enjoyment of the ability to do something regardless of alignment; Necarg is not confident posting as scum, but it doesn't mean he loses all enjoyment of playing the game. I don't like his focus on the TS-Tom fight because it looks like scum taking advantage of town fighting town. I don't like the lurking, and I don't like how forced all of his posts have sounded past the first couple.
SCUM:
Hawk: - My biggest problem with Hawk is how much of a non-entity he's been; my experience with his town game has been someone who was constantly in the game, posting, game-solving. I don't like his initial push on Tom because of how nonsensical it was (I don't want to put too much pressure on Tom or he might implode and I'm pretty sure I can read him very easily, but here's a vote on him anyways), and I hate his complete lack of stance on anything now that his tom scumread has disappeared. This is probably the only lynch I 100% wouldn't pardon because he has a high enough chance of being scum where I wouldn't want to waste two days lynching him.
Vote: Nachomamma8 (redirect to Necarg)
I do have kind of weird thoughts about there being a majority on me in order to lynch Necarg, but it also feels like there's good support behind him and that he has a pretty solid chance to be lynched, so I think he's the play for today and feel confident enough on my setup spec where I don't think I'll be magically lynched instead. When I made my earlier catchup, I was sort of on the fence between revealing and lynching him; after rereading some ISOs and getting a better idea on where I stand on everyone, I'd be happier with killing him outright.
also typed up something about necarg here, but i really want to wait for his promised catchup.
come on necarg.
my explanation is that you suck at reading
hmm. that read is a bit worrisome. that became a popular opinion, but it was really early to be thinking that.
Usually, I'm aware of everyone who has a serious scumread of me. One of the strategies that have brought me the most consistent success off-site is reading people based on how they're reading me, so I'm usually pretty sensitive to people who have strong reads on me.
it's doubly worrisome to me because i don't think jobie can read you at all
hes had a super weird run of alignments in the 3 games we've been in together.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
Like I told you for, something like the third time, D_V's "case" was rebutted before he even made it.
D_v'S entire case was refuted 100 posts before he even made it. Literally every point she has brought up was addressed. T/S said that D_V is trying to cause discord and it her "case" was a textbook example. However the fact that you're ignoring this completely and instead insisting that I'm not addressing her "case" because I'm afraid is patently ridiculous.
I told you to read the thread and you could verify it yourself and you did not. I even quoted the above post directly to you and you did not so that you could get a notification and you didn't have anything to say about it. Scum like to attach themselves to trash cases and that's exactly what you've done. And fyi I already told you that I figured d_v was trolling for reactions.
Literally right near the start of the game. I'm not scumreading d_v but I definitely see you as scum. I know d_v was making hay about other points too but those have also already been refuted literally before she even made her "case". If you had read the game like I suggested you'd have known all this. This makes it look like you're not reading to solve the game. It also looks like you're trying to hitch yourself to a wagon early so that in the event that a mislynch goes through you can make yourself look better by placement.
Uhhhh what in the world made you think I was a female?
.....?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Tom I DONT CARE if you scum read me. Every post you make is either false or some sort of contradiction. If you want to be the lone player scumreading me and then see in postgame that Im not scum again then so be it. The annoying thing is that you refuse to play Mafia in a consistent fashion and leads to a lot of facepalms from the player base.
I have a theory you might be scum aligned. Whether you are a scum aligned neutral or not is based on how you dont want to solve the game. Like literally zero interest. Suggests to me that you have an alternate win con.
I dont think Hans is necessarily hard to read, like you he isnt very consistent. Of course Hans could answer my question without revealing his role, but the fact is that his choice to claim responsibility for ending the day was unnecessary WIFOM.
Yeah, this exchange is particular troublesome because Tom has already been complimenting me on "playing a great scum game", "acting like he always does", "checking all the right boxes", etc. If I'm playing scum so well then that means I appear towny, right? So why have you been calling me the scummiest? See this is why I just can't deal with Tom. He just consistently contradicts himself as any alignment.
I explained in my last post. There is another tell I'm reading but I don't think it's in my best interest to let him know about it yet. I'd rather bury him tomorrow when I see how this vote mechanic actually works.
I think this response seems reasonable from town. I do have to insist that you push reads, particularly scum reads going forward.
@Nacho-Interesting that you mentioned how you view people that have strong reads on you. I subscribe to the same theory and thing it's the easiest way to learn about people because we know our own roles and can operate from a position of information.
seriously. ive literally been asking about that for a full week since you said it, and the best you could come up with is you think i have an alternate win con?
wouldnt i be more likely to want to solve the game as a neutral that doesnt already have the info?
this was a scum slip. im so happy nacho finally forced you to talk about it.
There is no backpedal here. I think you might be scumaligned neutral, it's a read I have. I haven't backed off it at all. You are either scum or scumaligned neutral. Exactly as I 've been saying for this whole week. Where is the backpedal Tom? Got caught with your pants down didn't you? And please stop using catch phrases that you don't undersatnd. Backpedaling would imply I made a point before, saw it was bad and went another direction. I'm literally saying the EXACT same thing.
Can someone else appeal to Tom to stop spamming and actually make a quality post? Like he has been called out by me, Arak, Nacho and others for saying things that make no **** sense or just false. Like Jobie obviously made a read, Tom guaranteed he reread (he didn't), he wants to vote for DOTA but he doesn't know why DERP DERP, he claims I'm backpedaling when I have consistently held the exact same position (and feel as strongly about it as ever).
@Nacho-In what world is Tom town here? I can see him making this many mistakes as town. He has a lot of lies to keep track of this game and it's leading to massive amounts of slips.
Another misrep! Sweet. These are piling up on you. I don't care if you scum read me at this point because I already know you aren't town (or in the miniscule chance you are just playing one of the worst town games conceivable, and I will scold you mercilessly for your poor play in postgame if we lose because of you). Other than that there isn't much I can do here besides see how the voting mechanic works and then lynch you tomorrow.
You should be well aware that I spend a lot of time reading and interacting with the people who have strong reads on me, this is one of the main points of my meta. But I wouldn't expect you to actually use logic to solve a problem. That would be against YOUR meta.
Tom doesn't deal in facts, but he believes that his word is absolute law.
The claim is reasonable, but I didn't like the way that he presented it.
The quotes you posted have now been changed to lyrics from "One Week" by the Barenaked Ladies. Mind Screw indeed, but not Smashmouth specific.
I am really not sure how to respond to you now. On the one hand, you keep responding to me and posting things, and you're still playing the game. On the other hand, your answers have been extremely unsatisfying.
You definitely changed your opinion about how you would like to use Nacho's ability. You have said that, once he posted details about it, you re-considered over time, and eventually came around. That's fair. However, during the time that you say you were reconsidering, we also had a debate on the topic, during which you defended your original position. When you eventually reversed, you first avoided answering the question about when you changed positions, and then gave an answer that was non-specific. My position is that this likely indicates a scum mindset - that your opinion didn't change as a result of the in-game posts, and that your comments on when your position changed are trying to retroactively justify a mindset that is inconsistent with town.
I'd appreciate comments from others on this, as I don't think there's much more to be shown here. Either you believe Tapping's posts on the matter show scumminess or you don't, and I'd like to hear why or why not.
Well, it's a good thing you've been posting a lot already, so that your positions are clear on everything. [/sarcasm]
I hadn't noticed an inconsistency before, and consistency, more than position, is what I have found best at finding the non-town mindsets. You're right that he had talked about doing an information pardon at one point, then said that he is against Nacho being forced to use his ability. However, he had specifically talked about doing a pardon on Azrael, which is a special case.
At least one of them had some red text edited in explaining that it was for messing up the votecount. Not sure about the others.
Well, it's really tunneling regardless. It's just more excusable if you're right.
--
Still waiting on Hawk to get back. He's got a number of questions out to him, and is certainly top 2 on my scumlist.
Hand-waving away your inconsistency, that is,bot very towny RR. He literally did the same type of about face as me, and how is it more excusable to use it on Az? That doesnt make any sense.
You are stretching really hard to scum read me here and it just comes across as fake.
Like your whole case is based on your own misinterpretation of the word "after". Can you really expect anyone besides Tom or DV to run with you here?
Now if we could only get you to apply the same extreme standards on others this game your positions might be justifiable.
Currently you just have me laughing and feeling no pressure. If Im scum why cant you and Tom put together a case that isn't terrible?
Plus I think scum!TS would just flat outwork you.
On to other things, what is this Hawk case you speak of?
Since you asked, I will chime in. Ignoring overall play which I think is just terrible. TS has wobbled on pretty much everything he has to say. For example look at Tom and His interactions. Every time Tom calls him on anything, he changes his tune just enough for it to "Make sense" and then calls it a misrepresentation of what he is saying. If one was to look at the data for TS I am certain that his most used word is misrep, and frankly this just isn't a viable defense. Both him and Imabussinessman have done this. I for one question the logic in it and how we are accepting this as town behavior.
To make this more clear I feel that good points have been brought up against both of them and their responses are basically "LALALALALAALALAA MISREP", then when questioned later on it, "I proved this wrong, it was a misrep and refuse to talk about anything further." I don't know if they are both just dumb and think that this is a viable solution or are purposefully playing this way. Either way, its downright bullying and in no way helps the town. I would also like to point out that we have been playing for about two weeks now and have made no progress in the game what so ever other than a few vital pieces of information being gleaned. We need to start making progress, the problem being that the two most scummy players people are ignoring, because they claim to have "refuted" any point made against them even though they really are just saying "That is not the case". So, when talking about avoiding answering a question it just isn't the ones that he hasn't answered, he has avoided many many questions in the form of this ridiculous defense by saying that everything is a misrep.
Finally, TS keeps calling Tom a liar, and is using this to make a case on Tom being anti-town aligned(Even though he claimed neutral for a long time, then just recently changed that to neutral scum and claims that was how it always was, hint it wasn't). And ignores where bussinessman directly lied about me, and once again keeps misrepresenting that situation as though I was denying that I changed my avatar, hint again I didn't. Actually, the more that I think about it every conversation that I and Tom have had he has excused of us misrepresenting him, while he himself has either purposefully or not misunderstood what we were saying. After a while it moves away from woeful incompetence, and becomes purposeful.
I am going to come in here and nip this in the butt. Ignoring anyone in a game is anti town as you are depriving interaction and yourself of information.
So many fun things to analyze. *outside looking in*
If I don't get a nomination candidate, then before too long I'll probably pick my own for the day.
First off - you do know you can edit quotes while responding to them, right? Obviously rewriting what someone said is horrible, but you can do something like what I demonstrated here in order to remove portions of a quoted post for readability.
Azrael is not a normal player in this game, so I'm more okay with people making exceptions for plans where they involve him. His stated opinions regarding players on the player list are not demonstrably inconsistent.
Imma back this up to some theory, since you are either not getting or pretending not to get why what I'm asking about is significant.
Townies are uninformed. They do not know who the scum are. They form opinions about the game, and those opinions change, but they generally change in response to specific events. Someone makes a post that seems really scummy, and opinions change. Someone points out a flaw with a proposed plan, and opinions are altered. But townies, generally, have reasons for why their opinions change.
Scum are informed. Aside from a neutral or two, they already know the affiliation of the players in the game. They don't have opinions, only facades. They generally don't care who gets lynched as long as it isn't their buddies, which can lead to a very mutable set of priorities. They make a decision because it seems to have a benefit at the time, and then try and justify it afterwards.
This is why I was asking when you changed your mind on the Nacho-pardon plan. Sure, it isn't an opinion about a specific player's affiliation, but it was still a rather abrupt about-face, which raised some red flags for me. When I inquired, you first ignored the question - and please let me know if you want me to relink my timeline, which shows that, unlike what you tried to insist, you did avoid it. When pressed, you said it happened after one of Nacho's posts. When I pointed out that the timing on that didn't work - that his post could not have been the most recent thing to happen for your conversion - you started hiding behind the word "after", insisting that a technically correct but unhelpful answer was gospel, and that I was scum for doubting you.
There are two explanations for your behaviour. Either you are telling the truth about Nacho's post 546 being the main reason you came around on the plan, in which case I need to believe that you gave more weight to that one fact than to the posts made in the day-and-three-quarters between then and when you clarified your position in 649 - a time that included discussions on the topic with me. Or I can believe that you are lying about when you came around - that you either misremembered when Nacho shared the information, or just plain didn't care, or are otherwise trying to retroactively justify the decision. I'm inclined towards the latter - and that is a scum mindset, not a town one.
The Hawk case, as I've referenced a couple times, is the full case I'd like to post on him. There are a couple posts of his that I definitely find scummy, and a couple others that I want to hear about before I decide if they should be included in an attack on him. I asked him these back in 618, but he hasn't made a reasonable post since then. Between that absence and the interactions with you, I've been holding off on getting back to Hawk.
If he is siting as something Tare is forbidding, I am guessing that it has to do with an ongoing game. The problem I have with that is meta is never 100% guarantee, and I personally loathe meta as an argument. That's why I thought it was role aligned, but if Tare is refusing to let Ghosting further explain, it means it likely isn't role inductive. Having enough doubts that I am fine just leaving him alone for now.
So...
100% confidant never comes on a potential meta read especially not on day 1. Not being able to mention it from Tare means it's role related. You might not be able to say why, but you should still never let go of Tom. Explain why you said "100 percent confidant" and then why you tried to brush it off as "never existing"?
Why not push Hawk though? As of now, he is actually on my list of "forgot this person was in the game"? Admittedly, Necarg is probably someone I would rather lose if wrong, but the few posts he made felt different than MvW. That said, he really isn't on the frontline, and I have almost forgot he was in this game a few times.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
like, hes actively making himself suspicious by making us have to scour the thread for his changes and never be able to trust his posts are what he actually said.
oh hey, did you mean like this:
do tapping. if you ask for homework, you get a lot.
Anyone care to 2nd that?
Did you really need to ask this?
Either way, to address his points...
Firstly, how did you think D_V became female? You refer to him as 'him' in the post you quote me from yourself that 'refutes' his points. I'm not even questioning that for your alignment, I just am completely confused how you could think a different gender for a player than the one you said in a post you quote.
Secondly, if you were paying attention, you would have noticed that he only changed his avatar once this game. Wasn't hard to tell, as his old avatar was mostly white, and this is mostly black. Getting into a pissing match about the syntax around the number feels worthless. Also, in that post that refutes his case, you don't actually quote DV at all. You show RR asking the question, and TS saying DV lied. Sure, I can go look up his answer and parse the sequence of events, but you presenting it in such a way is disheartening. If he was proven to be lying, why not add that? Why quote TS calling out DV, instead of where he admits to changing it?
Thirdly, you make the point of me reading the thread will refute DV's case. Say for a moment that I agree with that (I don't, for the record), doesn't it feel shady to tell other people to read the thread instead of actually refuting the case? Your "refuting" of his case has consisted mostly of just posting posts and saying "Look. See?" Sure, you are responding to it, but you aren't SAYING anything. What you say to refute it, and how you say it, are critically important pieces in trying to gleam someones alignment when someone posts a case against them. By just posting posts and saying its refuted just makes it feel like you aren't responding to his case.
Side note, why is trolling for reactions scummy? I tend to believe its slightly townie because that requires the person pushing for reactions to step out and push someone, whereas scum would tend to prefer to hide. Is it scummy in this case because he is/was trolling you for reactions? I agree you point it out early in the game, my response is "Why is that scummy?"
Speaking of which, if trolling for reactions is scummy, then claiming twice that I am not reading the thread would fit the bill, no? Liking my vote right where it is.
@Az I wouldn't be opposed to TS, would prefer IAMB but he has had enough non-answers for me to lean scum on him.
What are you nominating someone toward?
Oh look instead of responding to Nacho he posts this. And on top of that he can't understand what is being talked about.
I'm so done with this guy.
inb4 blocks nacho for being too mean.
Curse ate my post not just once but twice. I'm really f'ing pissed right now. tl/dr you've answered very little of the points I brought up in post 666.
Differences in Bur's play is highlighted in 769.
4. I look forward to you trying to Justify Nacho being a popular scumread in the face of the slew of townreads he was getting.
You said I was hopping on "popular wagons".
5. Really? So you mean you actually saw my statement in post 496 about why I wanted to vote Az, saw the explaination that Az cannot be voted, and you literally expected my vote to stay on Azrael? Really? That's what you think I should have done? Because almost immediately after post 496 I saw Bur's fake and lazy T/S list and that seemed to be a much more pressing concern. Speaking of Bur, let me go back to point #3. Bur was also taking a ton of suspicion which I wasn't down with until Bur made post 536. And even after Bur made post 536, It wasn't until she responded poorly that I got suspicious. This also disproves your "hopping on popular wagons" idea because Bur was actually losing attention and not being focused on at the time. But you knew all this. That's why you brought it up, right?
No fancy formatting for you.
If you were reading the game (expect this to be a theme...) you'd know that I was attending to other things much more important than highlighting how you're scum.
1. For some reason I got the impression that d_v might be female. I can't ask them about it right now because d_v is being ignored right now.
2. I can't quote d_v. d_v is on ignore right now. This has been mentioned or commented on by roughly a third of the players in this game. Reading much? And the point is that initially d_v claimed that I "lied" when I said that the avatar was changed multiple times. I'd be willing to accept that I was mistaken but that's not the point d_v was making. d_v jumped up and said that I lied about it. It got pointed out that several players knew that d_v had changed the avatar and so d_v's modified the point from "never changed the avatar" to "only changed it once". Hence my highlighting that there were witnesses to the change. Furthermore I used quotes from other players because d_v is on ignore. Since there were other players who knew that d_v changed the avatar their comments were sufficient. This is what forced d_v to modify the statement in the first place: literal witness testimony. Oh and btw, did I mention that d_v is on ignore and that means I literally can't quote d_v? Repeating myself my allow this information to be more easily absorbed...
3. If you start counting upward from 1 to 1000, the numbers "74" and "348" come before "493". d_v comes out of nowhere to try and make a case arguing points that have literally already been addressed along with some false accusations for added spice. This is what caused me to put d_v on ignore.. The links to the posts in question are in the quotes that I helpfully provided to you on at least two separate occasions. Twice. And you ignored it both times.
4. Did I say trolling for reaction is scummy? No, I most certainly did not. You're not reading the game. whoops, I said it again. I was suspicious of d_v (and hansanator)for NOT INTERROGATING EACH OTHER SINCE THEY HAD CONFLICTING STATEMENTS ABOUT THE GAMESTATE. I'll say it again for repetition: you're not reading the game. Also d_v is on ignore.<----I just threw that in there to help you understand why I'm not using their quotes.
5. I'm not accusing you of trolling for reactions. I'm flat out stating that you're hiding in plain sight scum. Putting in the minimal amount of effort to not be considered lurking but you aren't doing anything except hitching your wagon to a garbage case.
@nachomamma8
@tomsloger
What do you think about the tone of anaklusmo's paragraph.
Take particular note of the accusation that I intentionally waited to respond when I had mentioned that I was doing a re-read of Tracker mafia. I also revealed that I had re-read of two other games. Tell me what you think of Anaklusmo's paragraph. That statement..."intentionally wait that long"... just does not feel town at all.