So you don't like me taking no stance on someone after disliking a post they made?
Is this in response to the first thing I said, about disliking your phrasing on Ghosting? Because I don't read "not completely sold you are scum" as no stance. I read it as strong condemnation - "I think you are scum, but still have some small doubts." Except the exact way that it was phrased allows you to reverse course immediately if you want to.
I'm not sure if ghost is scum or just has a different view of the game than I do.
Getting back to my point from above - this position allows you to be very opportunistic in your dealings with Ghosting in the future. If he falters, you can pounce on him and claim the scum read. If he gets townie cred, you can back off and still have cover. It's a very useful position for scum, which is why I am suspicious of it.
Tom and anak both town cleared hans instantly without evidence. Can you please explain your thoughts on those players?
As I mentioned above, I found tom to be townie on skim, and less so when read in detail. I'd need to do a reread to get a full position on him, but don't remember anything jumping out at me as obviously problematic. His comment on hans is certainly a defensible position, even if I don't necessarily agree with it - I can imagine too many possible reasons why scum-hansanator would advance us a day and still claim it. Similar rationale applies to Anak's post, which uses the same logic. Outside of that, though, I don't really have a read on Anak - hopefully he'll provide us with more data points in the near future.
Getting back to my point from above - this position allows you to be very opportunistic in your dealings with Ghosting in the future. If he falters, you can pounce on him and claim the scum read. If he gets townie cred, you can back off and still have cover. It's a very useful position for scum, which is why I am suspicious of it.
As I mentioned above, I found tom to be townie on skim, and less so when read in detail. I'd need to do a reread to get a full position on him, but don't remember anything jumping out at me as obviously problematic.
Isn't your statement about Tom here doing exactly what you're accusing Hawk of doing?
I'm not sure what's wrong with having doubts. I disagree with your main point on two fronts. One, I think it's ok being on the fence about someone and two, you are accusing me of leaving the possibility of future scummy play... that doesn't really make sense... It's like you think you are a precog from minority report, except you can't see the future.
Also i don't think some of your assumptions apply to me as they would to other players but that's whatever.
@everyone else
Speaking of doubts.
unvote Tom
The tapping and tom is town vs town.
I have a few meta reasons why I think Tom is town but blah blah on going game cant elaborate wit concrete examples. Let's just say he would make even less sense if he was scum... and if I am wrong and he is, he will still be caught pretty quickly.
What exactly made you change your mind and think this? Anything in particular? Genuinely curious.
I have a few meta reasons why I think Tom is town but blah blah on going game cant elaborate wit concrete examples. Let's just say he would make even less sense if he was scum... and if I am wrong and he is, he will still be caught pretty quickly.
Why do you think he'll be caught quickly, but isn't an ideal choice right now?
So I think Tom is pretty derpy and when he first town cleared hans I thought it was a blatant scum slip. If he feigned more and more ignorance, I would have fully pushed his lynch.
He didn't. I disagree with some of his logic but he isn't "playing dumb" as what I would expect from scum tom.
Also I think he is very prone to blatantly scumslipping so I'm not worried.
Getting back to my point from above - this position allows you to be very opportunistic in your dealings with Ghosting in the future. If he falters, you can pounce on him and claim the scum read. If he gets townie cred, you can back off and still have cover. It's a very useful position for scum, which is why I am suspicious of it.
As I mentioned above, I found tom to be townie on skim, and less so when read in detail. I'd need to do a reread to get a full position on him, but don't remember anything jumping out at me as obviously problematic.
Isn't your statement about Tom here doing exactly what you're accusing Hawk of doing?
My issue with Hawk is not in what he is saying, but in how he is saying it. If he, or anyone else, wants to say "I find Player X scummy/townie but am undecided," that's fine. But he phrased it like this:
Also its called OMGUS. And generally that happens when someone votes and then an immediate counter vote happens. Also im not completely sold you are scum so I'm not sure why you think that would apply.
"not completely sold you are scum". It's a very twistable phrase, and that's the part of what he said that I have an issue with.
My issue with Hawk is not in what he is saying, but in how he is saying it. If he, or anyone else, wants to say "I find Player X scummy/townie but am undecided," that's fine. But he phrased it like this:
"not completely sold you are scum". It's a very twistable phrase, and that's the part of what he said that I have an issue with.
Rules:
<0> The first rule is that I cannot tell you any of the other rules.
<-1> I am the Mod thy God. If a dispute arises, my decision is final. That said, I am not infallible - if I make a mistake or you have a question, please inform me of the problem (preferably via PM or bold text) and I will correct it.
<-1a> Refusal to accept the moderators decision once the moderator has made it clear that the decision is final will be punished by modkill (if applicable) and blacklisting.
<-1b> I may, at my discretion, opt to use a greater punishment than usual on one or more players, provided that there is a clear pattern of more than one player violating the same rule and that the player(s) to be punished more severely broke that rule more severely or frequently than other players.
<1> This is a game. I hope that you have fun. In return, I ask that you not have your fun at the expense of the other players in this game (in other words, don't be a jackass). Repeated or extreme violations of this rule will result in replacement or modkill.
<1a> Attempting to use loopholes in the rules to gain an advantage in the game is considered jackassery, and will be treated as such. This applies to things like encrypted codes, invisible text, editing and deleting posts, etc. Please, use your common sense!
<1b> If there is any question about whether something might break the rules, it's probably best if you don't do it or at least ask first.
<1c> Rule 1 is a catchall rule; it is intended to preemptively outlaw any action I consider clearly unacceptable that I have not explicitly outlawed elsewhere, or for assigning a lesser punishment when I feel that the usual punishment for a rule violation would be too harsh. I will do my best not to use the first aspect of this rule, but if I decide that something qualifies as a Rule 1 violation then it is a Rule 1 violation. (See also Rule 0.)
<1d> Faking a violation of a rule will be treated as equivalent to actually violating that rule.
<2> If there is a conflict between a role and the rules, the role wins.
<3> Claiming that another player is your scumbuddy will result in a modkill. I have zero tolerance for scumbuddy claims.
<4> Do not quote role PMs. Violation of this rule will result in modkill. Role PM quoting includes quoting links to QuickTopics in your role PM or by paraphrases that in my judgment could only come from an actual Tarhalindur PM.
<5> You may not talk with other people about this game outside of the thread (but see Rule 2).
<6> This game will have a vote count and a FoS count. Each player will begin with 1 vote (but see Rule 2).
<6a> In a Normal game, the FoS count will have no effect on the game. Theme games make no such guarantee.
<7> To help the game run smoothly, votes and FoS'es should be made in bold text, and use the format Vote: XXXX and FoS: XXXX, respectively. An unvote and/or unFoS is required to remove a vote or FoS; to unvote or unFoS, please use the format Unvote: XXXX or UnFoS: XXXX.
<8> If a player or No Lynch has a majority of votes (or 50% of votes in the case of No Lynch), that player is lynched and cannot be unvoted. You may talk during twilight unless I state otherwise.
<9> Each game day will begin with a negotiable deadline of 2 weeks in place. At the end of each week, if I find the activity level in the game acceptable and the week does not end with the deadline, then I will extend the deadline by one week, to a maximum of twice the original deadline (a maximum of 4 weeks); the maximum deadlines are not retractable.
<10> If no one has reached majority by deadline, one of the following three things will happen:
a) If a majority of voting players are voting for a player, that player will be lynched.
b) If more than half of voting players are voting for one of two players, each of those players will send me a haiku. Whichever one is more amusing will be spared the rope. (Example: If thirteen players are voting out of 21, and 4 of those are voting for Player A and 5 are voting for Player B, Player A and Player B will need to send me haikus.)
c) If neither a) nor b) are applicable, No Lynch will occur.
<11> You may vote to No Lynch any number of times during the game. When at least 50% of voting players are voting No Lynch, No Lynch will occur. (To vote No Lynch, please use the format Vote: No Lynch. FoS'es for No Lynch will not be counted.)
<12> Don't drink and post, lest ye receive Public Humilitation. (This rule is an injoke and doesn't actually do anything.)
<13> This is an Open Night setup. As usual, lynching occurs during the day, actions are submitted at night and resolve at end of night (but see Rule 2). However, players are PERMITTED to talk in the thread during "night".
<13a> Nights will have a nonretractable deadline of 48 hours. Players are allowed to send in night choices early.
<14> When you die, stop posting. You may make a single "Bah!"/"Frak you!"/etc. post in the thread. You may not include game content in this post. In addition, once you are dead, please do not discuss the game with anyone other than the Mod until the game is over, as this makes the mod's life easier.
<15> All players need to post at least once every 72 hours, or inform me if this is not possible. If you do not post for 72 hours, you will be prodded. If you are prodded, then you will need to post something (a simple "/prodded" will suffice if you're short on time) within 72 hours or you will be replaced. You will receive an Official Warning the second time you fail to post for more than 72 hours. The third time you fail to post for 72 hours, you will be replaced.
<15a> If you have limited access, you need to post to this effect, either in V/LA or in the thread. If I prod you despite you declaring V/LA status, call me on it and I will be duly embarrassed.
<15b> If you post before I get around to handing out the prod, you avoid the prod.
<15c> Players who have a history of being lurkers may be Officially Warned for a first prod and replaced for a second.
<16> Players may only use one activeated ability per day (but see Rule 2).
<17> This game will start on Day 1 after all players have confirmed (by the method specified in their role PM).
<18> Any player who is modkilled loses the game unless I specify otherwise. I will modkill in either the fashion that I deem least damaging to the game state or the fashion that I deem most damaging to the modkilled player's faction, at my discretion.
<19> I reserve the right to add rules if necessary (or if I really, really want to).
<20> Okay, that's enough formal-sounding stuff. Good luck, have fun!
Game-Specific Rules:
<21> Whenever a player breaks a rule other than those explicitly punishable by modkill or other punishment defined in the rule, that player will receive a Rules Infraction. A player with five Rules Infractions will receive an Official Warning. A player with two Official Warnings will be forcibly replaced.
<22> A player who is revived by a temporal paradox will be removed from the game at the end of the game cycle after the one in which they were revived. (For example, if a player was revived by a temporal paradox during Day 2, he will die at the end of Night 3.)
<23> Abilities resolve in the following order: Global Manipulations, Manipulations, Protections, Kills, Investigations, Special Actions. Manipulations resolve in dependency order (i.e, if Player 1 blocks Player 2 who blocks Player 3, Player 1's ability resolves first blocking Player 2 and Player 2's block fails to resolve).
<42> Players are required to have a towel at all times. They don't have to have it on them, they just have to have them. (This is a joke rule and doesn't actually do anything.)
Secret Note: Rule 21 is literal. A player with 10 Rules Infractions won't receive a second Official Warning barring another reason.
Potential Rules: Lain:
<24> There will be two lynches during this game day
<25> Each player may use up to two activated abilities and each faction may use each factional ability up to two times during this game cycle
<26> The next game day will have a nonretractable deadline of 5 real-life days
<27> During this game day, players can't be replaced and inactive players will die at the end of the day
<28> During this game day, players cannot quote posts
<29> During this game day, lynch results in the player with the most FoS'es dying instead of the player with the most votes.
<30> At the end of the next game cycle, the player with fewest posts dies
<31> This game day will have a nonretractable deadline of two weeks
<32> This game cycle is skipped entirely
<33> During this game day, No Lynch will occur at deadline Vimes:
<34> Until the next game day, the base time until deadline is increased by 1 week.
<35> The next time a player would be lynched, instead that player will be investigated, the results posted in the thread (the investigation functions as a mod-confirmed Sane Cop's investigation, except the results will be posted in the thread), then the vote count will be reset. Quantum Mechanics:
<36> This game day, the ability resolution order will be reversed. Chairman Mao:
<37> This next game cycle is skipped entirely.
<38> This game day has a fixed deadline of 2 weeks
<39> This game day has a fixed deadline of 12+3d6 days
<40> During this game day, No Lynch will occur at deadline.
<41> This game day, instead of lynching a player, players cast votes to elect a Chairman (King) by majority vote. The King will then decide which player should be lynched today.
<43> During this game day, attempts to unvote will be unsuccessful.
<44> During this game day, votes will shift down by one player slot.
<45> During this game day, no player may make a post with more than 50 words (including quotes). Failure to abide by this restriction is a Rules Infraction.
<46> During this game day, no player may make a post with less than 50 words (not including quotes). Failure to abide by this restriction is a Rules Infraction.
<47> All active ability sanities will be inverted during this game cycle (kills become protections and vice versa, roleblocks become motivates and vice versa, investigations receive opposite results, mod-confirmed investigations receive no result, redirects change target from target 2 to target 1 rather than vice versa, recruits do not work). Joe McCarthy:
<48> <insert rule here>
Quote from "Mind Screw 4" »
<0>: The first rule is that I cannot tell you any of the other rules.
<0> I am the Mod thy God. If a dispute arises, my decision is final. That said, I am not infallible - if I make a mistake or you have a question, please inform me of the problem (preferably via PM or bold text) and I will correct it.
<0a> Refusal to accept the moderators decision once the moderator has made it clear that the decision is final will be punished by modkill (if applicable) and blacklisting.
<0b> I may, at my discretion, opt to use a greater punishment than usual on one or more players, provided that there is a clear pattern of more than one player violating the same rule and that the player(s) to be punished more severely broke that rule more severely or frequently than other players.
<1> You may not talk with other people about this game outside of the thread (but see Rule 2).
<2> This is a true Deep South setup. All actions are Rapid Actions (they resolve immediately upon receipt).
<2a> Lynches and abilities resolve on the post count on which they are sent in (via hammer vote or ability submission method, respectively).
<3> This game will have a vote count and a FoS count. Each player will begin with 1 vote (but see Rule 2).
<3a> In a Normal game, the FoS count will have no effect on the game. Theme games make no such guarantee.
<4> You may vote to No Lynch any number of times during the game. When at least 50% of voting players are voting No Lynch, No Lynch will occur. (To vote No Lynch, please use the format Vote: No Lynch. FoS'es for No Lynch will not be counted.)
<5> This is a game. I hope that you have fun. In return, I ask that you not have your fun at the expense of the other players in this game (in other words, don't be a jackass). Repeated or extreme violations of this rule will result in replacement or modkill.
<5a> Attempting to use loopholes in the rules to gain an advantage in the game is considered jackassery, and will be treated as such. This applies to things like encrypted codes, invisible text, editing and deleting posts, etc. Please, use your common sense!
<5b> If there is any question about whether something might break the rules, it's probably best if you don't do it or at least ask first.
<5c> Rule 1 is a catchall rule; it is intended to preemptively outlaw any action I consider clearly unacceptable that I have not explicitly outlawed elsewhere, or for assigning a lesser punishment when I feel that the usual punishment for a rule violation would be too harsh. I will do my best not to use the first aspect of this rule, but if I decide that something qualifies as a Rule 1 violation then it is a Rule 1 violation. (See also Rule 0.)
<6> Whenever a player submits an action via PM, that player should also submit the post count on which that action will occur (if no preference, please include the number of the most recent post). Failure to do so will result in a warning on the first offense (the Mod will calculate the appropriate post count for first offense) and failure to submit an action on subsequent offenses.
<7> Claiming that another player is your scumbuddy will result in a modkill. I have zero tolerance for scumbuddy claims.
<8> If no one has reached majority by deadline, one of the following three things will happen:
a) If a majority of voting players are voting for a player, that player will be lynched.
b) If more than half of voting players are voting for one of two players, each of those players will send me a haiku. Whichever one is more amusing will be spared the rope. (Example: If thirteen players are voting out of 21, and 4 of those are voting for Player A and 5 are voting for Player B, Player A and Player B will need to send me haikus.)
c) If neither a) nor b) are applicable, No Lynch will occur.
<9> All players need to post at least once every 72 hours, or inform me if this is not possible. If you do not post for 72 hours, you will be prodded. If you are prodded, then you will need to post something (a simple "/prodded" will suffice if you're short on time) within 72 hours or you will be replaced. You will receive an Official Warning the second time you fail to post for more than 72 hours. The third time you fail to post for 72 hours, you will be replaced.
<9a> If you have limited access, you need to post to this effect, either in V/LA or in the thread. If I prod you despite you declaring V/LA status, call me on it and I will be duly embarrassed.
<9b> If you post before I get around to handing out the prod, you avoid the prod.
<9c> Players who have a history of being lurkers may be Officially Warned for a first prod and replaced for a second.
<10> When a player is killed, any items he or she possesses drop to the ground. Dropped items can be picked up using the command Grab: ITEMNAME.
<10b> If multiple players attempt to grab the same item, the first player to grab the item gets the item.
<11> I reserve the right to add rules if necessary (or if I really, really want to).
<12> Don't drink and post, lest ye receive Public Humilitation. (This rule is an injoke and doesn't actually do anything.)
<13> To help the game run smoothly, votes and FoS'es should be made in bold text, and use the format Vote: XXXX and FoS: XXXX, respectively. Unvotes are not required; UnFoS'es are required, however, and use the format UnFoS.
<14> Players may use any number of special abilities per day (but see Rule 2). Passive abilities and factional abilities are not counted as special abilities for purposes of this rule.
<15> If a player or No Lynch has a majority of votes (or 50% of votes in the case of No Lynch), that player is lynched and cannot be unvoted. You may talk during twilight unless I state otherwise.
<16> This game contains a number of reusable and single-use items. Each role may use any number of activated abilities of any items it possesses each day (but see Rule 1).
<17> Any player who is modkilled loses the game unless I specify otherwise. I will modkill in either the fashion that I deem least damaging to the game state or the fashion that I deem most damaging to the modkilled player's faction, at my discretion.
<18> Avatars, signatures, and location may be important to this game. As such, if you want to or are required to change any of these parts of your profile, you must first post Avatar Change, Signature Change, or Location Change (respectively) in the thread.
<19> When you die, stop posting. You may make a single "Bah!"/"Frak you!"/etc. post in the thread. You may not include game content in this post. In addition, once you are dead, please do not discuss the game with anyone other than the Mod or other members of a Green Zone (should one exist) until the game is over, as this makes the mod's life easier.
<20> For this game, I am experimenting with the strength of my role-based anti-PM quoting strategies. This game is going to PERMIT mod PM quoting. Quote whatever you want (with one exception - see below).
<20a> All members of nontown factions have the Falseclaim ability ("At any time, you may send me an ability (or set of abilities) and a role name. If you do, I will make a fake role PM for you using the given name and abilities at the earliest possible opportunity. This is a Rapid Action (it resolves immediately upon receipt). You may use this ability any number of times. ") unless explicitly stated otherwise.
<20b> Do not quote QuickTopic links under any circumstances. Violation of this rule will lead to modkill AT MINIMUM.
<21> If there is a conflict between a role and the rules, the role wins.
<22> This game will start on Day 1 after all players have confirmed (by the method specified in their role PM).
<23> Each game day will begin with a negotiable deadline of 2 weeks in place. At the end of each week, if I find the activity level in the game acceptable and the week does not end with the deadline, then I will extend the deadline by one week, to a maximum of twice the original deadline (a maximum of 4 weeks); the maximum deadlines are not retractable.
<24> Okay, that's enough formal-sounding stuff. Good luck, have fun!
<25> The vote count will be reset at the end of each real-life week until stated otherwise. Added Day 1... oops, there's another mod error...
<26> Until further notice, Rule 5 is revoked. All players will be informed of this.
<27> Until further notice, all players must post once every 48 hours. A player who violates this rule will be prodded. If a player is prodded 5 times, they will be replaced. (Doesn't really work when the mod is as overloaded as I was.)
Quote from "Mind Screw 3 (awesome game)" »
<0> I am the Mod thy God. If a dispute arises, my decision is final. That said, I am not infallible - if I make a mistake or you have a question, please inform me of the problem (preferably via PM or bold text) and I will correct it.
<1> This is a game. I hope that you have fun. In return, I ask that you not have your fun at the expense of the other players in this game (in other words, don't be a jackass). Repeated or extreme violations of this rule will result in replacement or modkill.
<1a> Attempting to use loopholes in the rules to gain an advantage in the game is considered jackassery, and will be treated as such. This applies to things like encrypted codes, invisible text, editing and deleting posts, trying to use the structure of the role PM to gain an advantage, etc. Please, use your common sense!
<2> If there is a conflict between a role and the rules, the role wins.
<3> Claiming that another player is your scumbuddy will result in a modkill.
<4> Quoting private communications (role PM, mason conversations, etc.) or pretending to do the same will result in a modkill. Paraphrasing, however, is not only acceptable but encouraged unless I explicitly say otherwise.
<5> You may not talk with other people about this game outside of the thread (but see Rule 2).
<6> This game will have both a vote count and a FoS (Finger of Suspicion) count. All players will have 1 vote and 1 FoS (but see Rule 2).
<6a> In a Normal game, the FoS count will have no effect on the game other than breaking voting ties at deadline. Theme games make no such guarantee. (Especially not this one!)
<7> To help the game run smoothly, votes and FoS'es should be made in bold text, and use the format Vote: XXXX and FoS: XXXX, respectively. An unvote and/or unFoS is required to remove a vote or FoS; to unvote or unFoS, please use the format Unvote: XXXX or UnFoS: XXXX.
<8> If a player or No Lynch has a majority of votes, that player is lynched and cannot be unvoted. You may talk during twilight unless I state otherwise.
<8a> If there are an even number of votes in play and No Lynch has exactly 50% of votes, No Lynch will occur.
<9> Each game day will begin with a negotiable deadline of 2 weeks in place. At the end of each week, if I find the activity level in the game acceptable and the week does not end with the deadline, then I will extend the deadline by one week, to a maximum of twice the original deadline (a maximum of 4 weeks); the maximum deadlines are not retractable. (Currently overriden by Rule 25.)
<10> If deadline occurs without a full majority and a majority of voting players are voting for a player, that player will be lynched. Otherwise, No Lynch will occur.
<11> You may elect to No Lynch any number of times during the course of the game. In order to No Lynch, one of the two following conditions must be met: either a majority of living players must vote no lynch, or no player receives a majority of votes before deadline. (To vote No Lynch, please use the format Vote: No Lynch. FoS'es for No Lynch will not be counted.)
<12> Don't drink and post, lest ye receive Public Humilitation. (This rule is an injoke and doesn't actually do anything.)
<13> This is a modified Deep South setup, therefore there are no nights in this game. All abilities must be submitted during the game day and will resolve at the end of day unless otherwise stated.
<14> When you die, stop posting. You may make a single "Bah!"/"Frak you!"/etc. post in the thread. You may not include game content in this post. In addition, once you are dead, please do not discuss the game with anyone other than the Mod until the game is over, as this makes the mod's life easier.
<15> All players need to post at least once every 72 hours, or inform me if this is not possible. If you do not post for 72 hours, you will be prodded. If you are prodded, then you will need to post something (a simple "/prodded" will suffice if you're short on time) within 72 hours or you will be replaced. You will receive an Official Warning the second time you fail to post for more than 72 hours. The third time you fail to post for 72 hours, you will be replaced.
<15a> If you have limited access, you need to post to this effect, either in V/LA or in the thread. If I prod you despite you declaring V/LA status, call me on it and I will be duly embarrassed.
<15b> If you post before I get around to handing out the prod, you avoid the prod.
<16> Players may only use one special ability per day (but see Rule 2). Passive abilities and factional abilities are not counted as special abilities for purposes of this rule.
<17> This game will start on Day 1 after all players have confirmed (by the method specified in their role PM).
<18> Any player who is modkilled automatically loses the game. I will modkill in the fashion that I deem most damaging to the modkilled player's faction.
<19> I reserve the right to add rules if necessary (or if I really, really want to).
<20> Okay, that's enough formal-sounding stuff. Good luck, have fun!
<21> Game-specific rule: Whenever a player breaks a rule that is not punishable by modkill, they will be informed that they have committed a rule infraction and told the post number where they broke a rule. For every 5 rules infractions incurred, the guilty player will require 1 fewer vote to lynch. (If the rule broken was a temporary rule, then its associated rules infractions will be removed when the rule is removed.)
<23> Until further notice, if a player would vote for another player, that player will instead vote for the player directly below the intended votee in the player list. (If the player list is A, B, C, D, then when player A attempts to vote for Player C he will vote Player D instead. If the last player on the player list is targeted by a vote, that vote will instead target the first player on the player list.)
<25> Each game day will begin with a nonnegotiable deadline of 21 days in place unless stated otherwise.
Rules that were formerly in effect but have been removed from the game:
<0> The first rule is that I cannot tell you any of the other rules. (Added at game start, removed at end of Day 4)
<22> This day will have a non-retractable deadline of 5 real-life days (120 hours). (Added 1 second after game start, removed at end of Day 1)
<24> The next time a player would be lynched, instead that player's alignment will be revealed via official Mod message (functions as a Sane Cop investigation) and the vote count will be reset. This does not end the day. (Added Day 3, removed Day 3)
Quote from "Mind Screw 2" »
Rules:
<0> The first rule is that I cannot tell you any of the other rules.
The rest of the rules (see ModGod for how these become visible):
<0> I am the Mod thy God. If a dispute arises, my decision is final. That said, I am not infallible - if I make a mistake or you have a question, please inform me of the problem (preferably via PM or bold text) and I will correct it.
<1> This is a game. I hope that you have fun. In return, I ask that you not have your fun at the expense of the other players in this game (in other words, don't be a jackass). Repeated or extreme violations of this rule will result in replacement or modkill.
<1a> Attempting to use loopholes in the rules to gain an advantage in the game is considered jackassery, and will be treated as such. This applies to things like encrypted codes, invisible text, editing and deleting posts, trying to use the structure of the role PM to gain an advantage, etc. Please, use your common sense!
<2> If there is a conflict between a role and the rules, the role wins.
<3> Claiming that another player is your scumbuddy will result in a modkill.
<4> Quoting private communications (role PM, mason conversations, etc.) or pretending to do the same will result in a modkill. Paraphrasing, however, is not only acceptable but encouraged unless I explicitly say otherwise.
<5> You may not talk with other people about this game outside of the thread (but see Rule 2).
<6> This game will have both a vote count and a FoS (Finger of Suspicion) count. All players will have 1 vote and 1 FoS (but see Rule 2).
<6a> In a Normal game, the FoS count will have no effect on the game other than breaking voting ties at deadline. Theme games make no such guarantee. (Especially not this one!)
<7> To help the game run smoothly, votes and FoS'es should be made in bold text, and use the format Vote: XXXX and FoS: XXXX, respectively. An unvote and/or unFoS is required to remove a vote or FoS; to unvote or unFoS, please use the format Unvote: XXXX or UnFoS: XXXX.
<8> If a player has a majority of votes, that player is lynched and cannot be unvoted. You may talk during twilight unless I state otherwise.
<8a> Twilight will always last at least 12 hours unless stated otherwise.
<9> Each game day will begin with a nonnegotiable deadline of 13+1d15 days in place unless stated otherwise. (At the beginning of each day, I will roll a d15, add 13 to the result, and set the deadline accordingly.)
<10> If deadline occurs without a full majority and a majority of voting players are voting for a player, that player will be lynched. Otherwise, No Lynch will occur.
<11> You may elect to No Lynch any number of times during the course of the game. In order to No Lynch, one of the two following conditions must be met: either a majority of living players must vote no lynch, or no player receives a majority of votes before deadline. (To vote No Lynch, please use the format Vote: No Lynch. FoS'es for No Lynch will not be counted.)
<12> Don't drink and post, lest ye receive Public Humilitation. (This rule is an injoke and doesn't actually do anything.)
<13> This is a modified Deep South setup, therefore there are no nights in this game. All abilities must be submitted during the game day and will resolve at the end of day unless otherwise stated.
<14> When you die, stop posting. You may make a single "Bah!"/"Frak you!"/etc. post in the thread. You may not include game content in this post. In addition, once you are dead, please do not discuss the game with anyone other than the Mod until the game is over, as this makes the mod's life easier.
<15> I require that all players post at least once every 72 hours, or inform me if this is not possible. The first time you violate this rule, you will be prodded and receive an Official Warning. The second time you violate this rule, you will be replaced.
<15a> If you have limited access, you need to post to this effect, either in V/LA or in the thread. If I prod you despite you declaring V/LA status, call me on it and I will be duly embarrassed.
<16> Players may only use one special ability per day (but see Rule 2). Passive abilities and factional abilities are not counted as special abilities for purposes of this rule.
<17> This game will start on Day 1 after all players have confirmed (by the method specified in their role PM).
<18> Any player who is modkilled automatically loses the game. I will modkill in the fashion that I deem most damaging to the modkilled player's faction.
<19> I reserve the right to add rules if necessary (or if I really, really want to).
<20> Okay, that's enough formal-sounding stuff. Good luck, have fun!
<21> Game-specific rule: Whenever a player breaks a rule that is not punishable by modkill, they will be informed that they have committed a rule infraction and told the post number where they broke a rule. For every 5 rules infractions incurred, the guilty player will require 1 fewer vote to lynch. (If the rule broken was a temporary rule, then its associated rules infractions will be removed when the rule is removed.)
Quote from "Mind Screw I" »
<0> Game-specific rule: The first rule is that I cannot tell you any of the other rules.
The rest of the rules (invisible so long as the Godfather ability is active):
<0> I am the Mod thy God. If a dispute arises, my decision is final. That said, I am not infallible - if I make a mistake or you have a question, please inform me of the problem (preferably via PM or bold text) and I will correct it.
<1> This is a game. I hope that you have fun. In return, I ask that you not have your fun at the expense of the other players in this game (in other words, don't be a jackass). Repeated or extreme violations of this rule will result in replacement or modkill.
<1a> Attempting to use loopholes in the rules to gain an advantage in the game is considered jackassery, and will be treated as such. This applies to things like encrypted codes, invisible text, editing and deleting posts, etc. Please, use your common sense!
<2> If there is a conflict between a role and the rules, the role wins.
<3> Claiming that another player is your scumbuddy will result in a modkill.
<4> Quoting private communications (role PM, mason conversations, etc.) or pretending to do the same will result in a modkill. Paraphrasing, however, is not only acceptable but encouraged unless I explicitly say otherwise.
<5> You may not talk with other people about this game outside of the thread (but see Rule 2).
<6> This game will have both a vote count and a FoS (Finger of Suspicion) count. All players will have 1 vote and an unlimited number of FoS'es (but see Rule 2)
<6a> In a Normal game, the FoS count will have no effect on the game other than breaking voting ties at deadline. Theme games make no such guarantee.
<7> To help the game run smoothly, votes and FoS'es should be made in bold text, and use the format Vote: XXXX and FoS: XXXX, respectively. An unvote and/or unFoS is required to remove a vote or FoS; to unvote or unFoS, please use the format Unvote: XXXX or UnFoS: XXXX.
<8> If a player has a majority of votes, that player is lynched and cannot be unvoted. You may talk during twilight unless I state otherwise.
<9> Each game day will begin with a negotiable deadline of 2 weeks in place. At the end of each week, if I find the activity level in the game acceptable and the week does not end with the deadline, then I will extend the deadline by one week, to a maximum of twice the original deadline (a maximum of 4 weeks); the maximum deadlines are not retractable.
<10> At deadline, the player with the most votes is lynched. In the case of a tie, the player with the most FoS'es will be lynched.
<11> You may elect to No Lynch any number of times during the course of the game. In order to No Lynch, a majority of living players must be vote no lynch. (To vote No Lynch, please use the format Vote: No Lynch. FoS'es for No Lynch will not be counted.)
<12> Don't drink and post, lest ye receive Public Humilitation.
<13> Each game night will last approximately 4 real-life days (~96 hours) unless stated otherwise.
<14> When you die, stop posting. You may make a single "Bah!"/"Frak you!"/etc. post in the thread. You may not include game content in this post. In addition, once you are dead, please do not discuss the game with anyone other than the Mod until the game is over, as this makes the mod's life easier.
<15> Please try to post at least once every 96 hours, or inform me if this is not possible. If you are prodded, then you will need to post something (a simple "/prodded" will suffice if you're short on time) within 96 hours or you may be replaced.
<15a> If you have limited access, then please post to this effect, either in V/LA or in the thread. If I prod you despite you declaring V/LA status, call me on it and I will be duly embarrassed.
<16> Players may only use one special ability per day/night cycle (but see rule 2)
<17> This game will start on Day 1 after all players have confirmed (by PM).
<18> Okay, that's enough formal-sounding stuff. Good luck, have fun!
<19> Game-specific rule: Whenever a player breaks a rule that is not punishable by modkill, they will be informed that they have committed a rule infraction and told the post number where they broke a rule. For every 5 rules infractions incurred, the guilty player will require 1 fewer vote to lynch. (If the rule broken was a temporary rule, then its associated rules infractions will be removed when the rule is removed.)
<20> Game-specific rule: If a player would vote for another player, that player will instead vote for the player directly below the intended votee in the player list.
<21> Game-specific rule: If a player would use a night action on a player, instead that player will target the player below their intended target on the player list.
If you don't feel like reading all of that but are curious as to what sorts of rules we are facing, here is what is likely the core ruleset:
<0> The first rule is that I cannot tell you any of the other rules.
<-1> I am the Mod thy God. If a dispute arises, my decision is final. That said, I am not infallible - if I make a mistake or you have a question, please inform me of the problem (preferably via PM or bold text) and I will correct it.
<-1a> Refusal to accept the moderators decision once the moderator has made it clear that the decision is final will be punished by modkill (if applicable) and blacklisting.
<-1b> I may, at my discretion, opt to use a greater punishment than usual on one or more players, provided that there is a clear pattern of more than one player violating the same rule and that the player(s) to be punished more severely broke that rule more severely or frequently than other players.
<1> This is a game. I hope that you have fun. In return, I ask that you not have your fun at the expense of the other players in this game (in other words, don't be a jackass). Repeated or extreme violations of this rule will result in replacement or modkill.
<1a> Attempting to use loopholes in the rules to gain an advantage in the game is considered jackassery, and will be treated as such. This applies to things like encrypted codes, invisible text, editing and deleting posts, etc. Please, use your common sense!
<1b> If there is any question about whether something might break the rules, it's probably best if you don't do it or at least ask first.
<1c> Rule 1 is a catchall rule; it is intended to preemptively outlaw any action I consider clearly unacceptable that I have not explicitly outlawed elsewhere, or for assigning a lesser punishment when I feel that the usual punishment for a rule violation would be too harsh. I will do my best not to use the first aspect of this rule, but if I decide that something qualifies as a Rule 1 violation then it is a Rule 1 violation. (See also Rule 0.)
<1d> Faking a violation of a rule will be treated as equivalent to actually violating that rule.
<2> If there is a conflict between a role and the rules, the role wins.
<3> Claiming that another player is your scumbuddy will result in a modkill. I have zero tolerance for scumbuddy claims.
<4> Do not quote role PMs. Violation of this rule will result in modkill. Role PM quoting includes quoting links to QuickTopics in your role PM or by paraphrases that in my judgment could only come from an actual Tarhalindur PM.
<5> You may not talk with other people about this game outside of the thread (but see Rule 2).
<6> This game will have a vote count and a FoS count. Each player will begin with 1 vote (but see Rule 2).
<6a> In a Normal game, the FoS count will have no effect on the game. Theme games make no such guarantee.
<7> To help the game run smoothly, votes and FoS'es should be made in bold text, and use the format Vote: XXXX and FoS: XXXX, respectively. An unvote and/or unFoS is required to remove a vote or FoS; to unvote or unFoS, please use the format Unvote: XXXX or UnFoS: XXXX.
<8> If a player or No Lynch has a majority of votes (or 50% of votes in the case of No Lynch), that player is lynched and cannot be unvoted. You may talk during twilight unless I state otherwise.
<9> Each game day will begin with a negotiable deadline of 2 weeks in place. At the end of each week, if I find the activity level in the game acceptable and the week does not end with the deadline, then I will extend the deadline by one week, to a maximum of twice the original deadline (a maximum of 4 weeks); the maximum deadlines are not retractable.
<10> If no one has reached majority by deadline, one of the following three things will happen:
a) If a majority of voting players are voting for a player, that player will be lynched.
b) If more than half of voting players are voting for one of two players, each of those players will send me a haiku. Whichever one is more amusing will be spared the rope. (Example: If thirteen players are voting out of 21, and 4 of those are voting for Player A and 5 are voting for Player B, Player A and Player B will need to send me haikus.)
c) If neither a) nor b) are applicable, No Lynch will occur.
<11> You may vote to No Lynch any number of times during the game. When at least 50% of voting players are voting No Lynch, No Lynch will occur. (To vote No Lynch, please use the format Vote: No Lynch. FoS'es for No Lynch will not be counted.)
<12> Don't drink and post, lest ye receive Public Humilitation. (This rule is an injoke and doesn't actually do anything.)
<14> When you die, stop posting. You may make a single "Bah!"/"Frak you!"/etc. post in the thread. You may not include game content in this post. In addition, once you are dead, please do not discuss the game with anyone other than the Mod until the game is over, as this makes the mod's life easier.
<15> All players need to post at least once every 72 hours, or inform me if this is not possible. If you do not post for 72 hours, you will be prodded. If you are prodded, then you will need to post something (a simple "/prodded" will suffice if you're short on time) within 72 hours or you will be replaced. You will receive an Official Warning the second time you fail to post for more than 72 hours. The third time you fail to post for 72 hours, you will be replaced.
<15a> If you have limited access, you need to post to this effect, either in V/LA or in the thread. If I prod you despite you declaring V/LA status, call me on it and I will be duly embarrassed.
<15b> If you post before I get around to handing out the prod, you avoid the prod.
<16> Players may only use one activeated ability per day (but see Rule 2).
<17> This game will start on Day 1 after all players have confirmed (by the method specified in their role PM).
<18> Any player who is modkilled loses the game unless I specify otherwise. I will modkill in either the fashion that I deem least damaging to the game state or the fashion that I deem most damaging to the modkilled player's faction, at my discretion.
<19> I reserve the right to add rules if necessary (or if I really, really want to).
<20> Okay, that's enough formal-sounding stuff. Good luck, have fun!
^This is almost guaranteed to be the core piece of the set we're looking at; nothing crazy, but there will be hints for what kind of game it is (Rapid Resolution, quick night, etc). There could possibly be something funky with FoSes (as a result, I'll likely be voting and FoSing scum suspects), there is almost certainly something funky going on with lynch threshhold because I don't think telling us how many to lynch is a Tar staple (and thus I'm probably a guard against lynches before our time): current working theory is that Tom's number is equal to the lynch threshhold which would make him very likely town.
The thing I'd like to explore next is moderator roles so I can get a theory on the Azrael-Tar connection; again, realize that my content is setup-heavy but we're playing Mind Screw and a big part of why I really wanted to play this game was because I was looking forward to attempting to figure it out. Content-heavy post coming next if you're into those sorts of things.
As an aside, I saw a Godfatherizer in Tar's last Mind Screw and don't want to give Mafia the opportunity to make themselves investigative-immune if they think that I'm going to govern a target, so I AM NOT GUARANTEED TO BE GOVERNING/REVEALING ON THE FIRST DAY. DO NOT TRUST MY RESULTS COMPLETELY EVEN AFTER I AM DEAD AND CONFIRMED TOWN.
a full explanation of that thing that happened, since im not gonna interact anymore for the sake of everyone's enjoyment so it will no longer apply:
this closely mirrored my attacks on tapping in previous games. this was on purpose.
i came out confident ts was scum and explained why. i did not have that much actual confidence at the start (i do now).
in the past, town ts reacted with anger, condescension (not really relevant tbh, as its his default), omgus, and fervor to refute every single point
now theres no way to be sure if town ts would react the same way here. it is, at its base, a very emotional reaction. i cant really know if i would strike the same chords and bring out his righteous indignation.
but what i was sure of is that scum ts would pretend to react this way. and i think thats what happened.
he was angry, but not emotional. he voted me, but i dont really think he believes im scum. he tried to refute some points, but just didnt have that fervor. and then just sort of stopped trying. this is not town ts.
and FTR, i dont actually think he was trying to rolefish. at least not consciously.
i think hes a little angry he got scumread for the wrong reasons.
@nacho what makes you think proph was shot? did they shoot him in midair?
i think ghosting approaches things very differently than me. i get a strong sense of "other" when reading his posts and i dont think its about alignment.
@imab something ive been wondering. it could be important.
how do you feel about your game in the classic? do you plan to do more lying as town?
@mod(s) : still waiting on results of investigation
(also, small bit more of setup speculation: rules infractions are likely a red-herring, don't think Tar would punish a crowd unfamiliar with the infractions system too heavily).
If there isn't a legit interest, I would at least like no more psuedo claiming unless you are a day vig. I will end the day by post 1,000. Without breaking any rules of the forum, I will force you all in a situation. I am a firm believer of LAL, so don't even try.
Let's have fun and kill some evil.
Noting the whole "ending the day by post 1000" part, just so other people do. This means that, when we approach post 1000, we should have the lynch we want pretty solidly decided on and that we shouldn't waste posts if we can help it. 1,000 posts should be more than enough to get done what we need to get done.
I'm naturally sort of suspicious of this claim: there's no reason to claim it at all (it doesn't bring information to the town, it doesn't affect how people should claim). Tom pointed out that he thought it was a town tell because it was an example of Hans putting himself into the spotlight, but I disagree with that premise (I don't think there is a valid avenue for anyone to attack or suspect him because he skipped a day, and Hans would recognize that) and also think that most players with that ability would tell the truth about it regardless of alignment.
The reason why I move from being null to naturally suspicious is because Tar's roles usually aren't completely useless; occasionally they can seem harmless on the outside and occasionally they can be a red herring, but they usually aren't flat useless. I have a small suspicion that Hans could be powering up an anti-town role, but it's not a strong reason to suspect, just means I'll be looking for the significance of it being Day 2.
Interesting that Hans made us skip a day, but not sure how that really affects the game. That said, the fact he claimed it and wasn't countered makes me feel good about him being town, I don't see him as scum being so forthcoming. Don't know how that ability helps us, but I believe that will manifest more as the game goes on.
Let's say that as scum, you have the ability to sprinkle every player with fairy dust and have the mod confirm it. Fairy dust has no effect on the game whatsoever. As scum, is there a reason not to use it? It there a reason not to tell the truth about using it?
@Necarg: Do you have magic power to edit your posts?
Yes, and I simply added "I am the one who knocks" for teh lulz and to see if people noticed. Good job!
GJ's No lynch thing isn't indicative as alignment. He just always does it. I'm thinking Nacho is townie due to role and the claim itself.
Told
Help! I'm trapped in this post and I can't get out! I'll answer crap tonight.
From what I understand of Necarg, his scum meta is considerably more nervous than his town meta, and he's much less likely to do things for the **** of it as scum than he is as town. The first time I played with him as scum, he ended up posting reads lists a little too much, didn't joke around much, was extraordinarily quiet. I ended up winning a scumgame where he lived to the end and this matched up perfectly. When I played with him in Vanillaville, I told him not to acknowledge a post and he put it in his signature, he was much more erratic, engaged, less nervous. If he's scum, he's playing miles and miles ahead of any of his completed scumgames on the basis of tone alone.
Right, I said it was towny to me. Claiming that he did that would draw a lot of attention to himself, and leave him open to being countered rather easily. This is something that I would think really risky for scum, as they tend to want to sit back more often than town. What is the benefit of him lying that he did it? Not to mention that nobody is countering him, making the likelihood of him lying rather low.
If it was null, it would be something that he would be equally likely to do as scum and town, which I don't believe. Also, I said it was townie, but that doesn't mean I am saying he is 100% town, I just believe it to be a townie action.
Why would claiming a completely useless action draw significant attention to him?
I don't think he's lying; you're correct that it would be completely stupid for him to lie about a confirmable action at the beginning of the game.
[b]vote: tappingstones[/b] this reeks of trying to determine if hans is worth a NK and transitioning to "maybe i can just get him lynched".
also hes being way too nice. hasnt even called anyone old sport yet.
i think putting himself out there like that for no real reason is a pretty solid town tell for hans.
coming from someone like me, it would be fairly meaningless.
like, im not gonna win a game by keeping to the shadows. but that seems like the blueprint for hans winning as scum.
I don't think that TS is rolefishing Hans by asking why he did what he did.
Hans claimed a solid piece of information; elaborating someone why they did what they claim to have done is pretty standard fare for a mafia game IMO.
I agree with Tom here, you seem to be fishing hard for role info. If you were hard scum reading me in the MvW game for role speculating, why are you doing the same here? And how can you be certain it's an X-shot ability?
DOTA- I have NOT been role fishing. All my questions have been based on motive. I've been using the all important word WHY. The role fishing word would be HOW.
DOTA and Tom have both purposefully misrepped me here. DOTAs vote attempting to start a wagon.
Where are these role fishing questions you speak of DOTA?
On a similar note, I don't either misrep from DoT or Tom was purposeful. Your question could be interpreted fairly easily since a majority of answers to it would require parts of Hans's role as an answer (aka "I ended the day because I can only use abilities on Even Nights, I ended the day because I had to, etc") although I recognize that most likely wasn't your intention.
I am a Governor again, planning on playing it the same way I did in Classic. This is a game of a different nature so I am not confirmed town by ability, however, when j decide to halt a lynch, I can either make the lynched player king for the day (meaning they alone choose the lynch) or publicly reveal their alignment to everyone.
I liked this post from GJ because it had a little of the bite his posts lacked in Classic - while it's entirely possible that he's modified his scum play based on the case I had him in Classic, I don't find it extraordinarily likely (if that was the case, I'd explain it to be overblown/anger at me "taking over the town" instead of a warning").
@TS: Please, stop referring to on-going game. Thank you.
I agree with GJ that Nacho's role needs to be confirmed at some point (especially if it allows him to confirm another player's alignment).
@Bur-In completed games Tom has close to zero interaction with Hans. For him to call Hans easy to read makes no sense.
What do you think about DOTA and Tom's misreps?
I agree that Tom believing that Hans is pretty easy to read is sort of nonsense, but I think it's a case of inflated sense of ability as opposed to any sort of truly ill intention. I think that his reason for believing Hans is town isn't really terrible (it's a sentiment shown by other people even though I disagree that it's terrible), and I think he tends to exaggerate reads pretty strongly in general.
an OMGUS vote and still no condescension?! dont just roll over tapping, make it hard on us.
Not even post 100, and you want to show such bravado? Even Cyan isn't that ballsy. Why are you not addressing Hawk's reasonless vote on you,instead of TS's?
I am also advocating making L-4 the new claim range (so, in this case, 7 votes). Number alive + to lynch is redacted. I have a weird feeling even if the NPCs are just there as a mind ****, the number of players may not be the only factor to lynch.
My alternative to the L-4 plan (I think it might bring too many claims too quickly) is simply to be conservative with voting and for the town to verbally agree on a lynch before we get one; this means we likely won't run into a lynch threshhold problem and claims can result with wagons that are truly wagons with intent to lynch. I'd suggest we FoS our lynches before actually pushing them through, but deadline problems and FoSes could also do things.
@TS: I think Tom's town. I'm not sure what to think of DoTA's jump on your wagon nor what to make of your reaction to accusation of rolefishing.
(Also, I'm the player with 4th highest post count in this game. WTF!?)
This tell is a bit oddball, I know, but I liked the last sentence in this post. I think Bur, as scum, has trouble posting (his scum performances from what I've seen have been fairly lurky), so the fact he is more engaged than he thinks realizes is a good sign. I don't think he as scum is creative enough to fake something like this and I'm not sure who would be a savvy enough coach to encourage him to do so.
[b]Bur, you might have a high vote count, but you are coming off as echoing me pretty hard. I want some original thought.[/b]
What town vibes are you getting from Tom? I am not even super sure Tapping is town, but what I am getting is that the two votes I saw are pretty terrible.
I really liked the bolded here. Scum love when townies align with their thoughts because it means they have more influence in the town; townies occasionally get paranoid of it, especially if they see themselves as town leaders early. I also like the strong push fighting the Tapping is scum tide because yes, I agree that the votes suck (and while I have a leaning town read on TS, I'm being a bit more cautious around it because I've playing with Tapping-town a bunch of times and don't want to get lazy).
@Tom: Pulling percentage out of your ass is not a great way. I also don't believe you can be that confidant in Han's townieness when there is a relatively high chance he is lying. And that is not based on his sig.
@GJ are you now simultaneously advocating a no lynch to give away less information and lowering the threshold for claims? those dont match bro.
I am suggesting caution. If you read my post before, you would know that I was suggesting we use Nacho to move forward with a no lynch, essentially as a public day cop shot instead of a lynch. I get what I want, Nacho gets confirmed, as does his target.
Actually, for a stronger confirmation of my target, I'd like to lynch a player that I have a decent townread on. I have reasons to fear a Godfather can mess with my ability (will get into this later when I research scum roles in Mind Screw Games), but understand the need for me to confirm my ability relatively quickly and end the day with a confirmed alignment and no one dead.
I am a Governor again, planning on playing it the same way I did in Classic. This is a game of a different nature so I am not confirmed town by ability, however, when j decide to halt a lynch, I can either make the lynched player king for the day (meaning they alone choose the lynch) or publicly reveal their alignment to everyone.
Point me to the game where you were governor before, please?
OK, now I'm sure TS is scum. This defensive rage is much more faked and lazy than his other furies.
"Already getting hard to remember all the lies, isn't it Tom?" - Already starting off with the oldest trick in the book: Nonsensically attacking the person, not his actions.
"Nice try avoiding the question. I said to share with us this easy town read/tell you have on Hans." - Again, but this one is even less founded. He's just ignoring the actual answer here: It doesn't ******* matter. TS is just trying to find something to be angry at, and Hans and Tom were the first things he saw. The TS I know doesn't get half as bent out of shape over stuff like this.
"This is laughable. What information did he share with us Tom? That he ended the day. The obvious question would first be "Why did Hans end the day? What is the town motivation? You still have failed to provide any town motivation." - This is my main gripe. This is lazy, a terrible play, and gives more ground to the scum in every way. @TS: YOUR job is to find town motivation. Telling someone else to do it for you is stupid, lazy, and unreasonable. Hans is town because Scum would never A) Use the ability like that, and B) Claim it because that would draw attention to them to that they could screw up. You are being lazy and nonsensically angry.
"Now you are trying to spin this away from you, perhaps trying to lead DOTA to jump in on your defense? Otherwise what is the reason for this statement? Certainly no town motivation here." - WTF. TS just casually ignores Tom's entire statement and says it has no town motivation, when it is calling him out on his laziness and nonsense. I don't see town motivation in just reading what you want to see and making assumptions accordingly.
"I've played with you in 3+ games now. In ALL games you have gone after me hard from the very beginning(first 1-2 days as scum). In all games I was town." - My second main gripe. He ignores all the attacks made in a paragraph of posting and said, "The last time you had me as scum, I was town." This time it's founded because he's being lazy and unreasonable. The chances of you hitting town four times in a row isn't easy.
I don't have time for anything else right now until Afternoon.
I have two rebuttals to the assertion that TS is attacking the players and not the play and thus he is scum:
First, I don't think that attacking players instead of the play is alignment indicative. I find it bad form, sure, but there is not a strong correlation between bad form and scum (if there was, town would win far more often).
Secondly, I don't think that TS was attacking Tom personally: that aggression is TS's playstyle and would very likely be present regardless of alignment (I haven't played with him as scum yet, but I doubt TS as scum will turn into a kitten), and his "you are having trouble keeping the lies straight" seems like a fair followup considering he accused tom of misrepresenting him and then tom's followup to that attack wasn't satisfactory.
Your second assertion that a lack of town motivation doesn't mean Hans is scum and TS should recognize that is flawed: I find a lack of town motivation suspicious myself and disagree with your reasons for finding Hans town (and I've already outlined why; let me know if you need me to dig them up for you since I have a feeling this post is gonna be a doozy).
Your third assertion is that TS "angrily and lazily" responded to Tom's assertion of how he was reading TappingStones, and I disagree with that as well. Tom's argument is that he's reading him better than his past two failures: I don't think the rebuttal to that needed to be more than a scoff and "no, you're not", especially since I've had to force myself to read their posts and not skim because the TS-Tom dance is a little too familiar to me at this point.
All in all, I think that you're heavily biased against TS because you don't like the way he's approaching the game. I would strongly consider you to skim some of his completed games to see that this attitude is consistent throughout all of it, or try to take it out of your case against him. I think the other part that biases you against TS is your own views on Hans: do you think my position is unreasonable? Do you think GJ's position is unreasonable?
@Leuko:
I would argue that you have the opposite problem that Necarg does (in that you are pushing against Tom because you can't see why he would find TS scummy). I would point you to Tom pushing and overreacting to TS's play in two other games to show that it's not particularly indicative of his alignment in this one. Do you think Tom is scum for reasons outside of his push on TS?
@Hans-Feel free to chime in anytime you like. What is the town motivation to claim there? I've asked this question so many times and no one can seem to provide any reasonable town motivation for Hans to claim there as town.
@hans sorry if youve already answered this and i didnt see, but how do you feel about this big reaction to tapping's question. what are your reads on tom and tapping right now.
My gut says it's a town/town argument based on how both thinks he is right (i.e. Tom genuinely thinks I'm town and TS genuinely thinks that it's scummy that I'm withholding information), but I could be wrong about either one. I'm sorta skeptical of Tom dogmatically townreading me for no legitimate reason, which would imply he's scum and already knows I'm town, but then I don't think he would have the guts to openly tell Nacho to govern him like he did a couple times already. So I think they're both town atm. I suppose TS could be scum hoping to push through a mislynch, but he's been way too whiney for this to be the case, imo.
----
Do you guys think D_V's post restriction is similar to Juliet? I guess it's not really important, but that's what comes to mind when I read his posts.
Also, that No Lynch guy is probably scum and you all should vote him.
I liked this post from Hans - Tom is a strong defender, TS is a strong attacker. Taking the position that they are both town is the position I find the least likely for Hans to take because it sort of alienates himself from both parties (Tom sees him reading TS as town which has the possibility to shake up that townread a bit, he's not backing up TS against Tom and so there's no real chance of changing TS's read); however, this read isn't very significant because it's heavily skewed by the fact that I'm reading both Tom and TS as town: I don't think scum-Hans passes up on the chance to add fuel to this particular fire.
accidentally quoted hans instead of tapping in my last post, sorry. doing it from my phone and i just woke up so formatting got screwy
@imab what tipped the scales for you for into thinking no lynch/governer is a good plan. im still on the fence
Usually I have some good scumreads by now. All of my scumreads have evaporated and I'm feeling lost. I'm pretty sure I'm missing a question or two. Otherwise I might have to resort to some generic catchall questions I've kept around that I hate having to use.
It's hard for me to believe that a player like you is simply lost, has no stance significant draw in the TS/Tom discussions. What impressed me the most about you in Vanillaville was your drive and your constant conviction in a player being scum/town; you brought an incredibly energy to the game, and here I'm supposed to believe you just don't have it?
Rob: I've seen the "TS is scum for being overreactive!" song and dance before: it's not interesting, we aren't going to get anything productive out of it. So, I prefer to shut it down before I see the same game playing before me again and again.
Are you referring to players in general doing this, or TS in particular? If the latter, is there an example game you can provide me? This is my first game back in a while, so there are a lot of people I don't have metagame reads on at all.
(Although I just noticed Gentleman Johnny's sig. Apparently there's one more player in the game that I'm familiar with than I thought!)
I'm referring to TS in particular. If you're looking for people attacking TS for being confrontational and overreacting, look no farther than OB's attacks here.
This sounds a lot like "I'm not going to say I think they're town yet, but I won't say they're scum yet either. Let me just fencesit some more while I see what other people think of that opinion as well as the players themselves.
Anyone disagree?
Not really.
Several people had already expressed a town read on me by that point, so if he wanted to ride popular sentiment, he could have just called me town.
It also seems a fairly reasonable position to hold considering neither of us had much content at that point yet both of us had made significant move WRT roles.
Okay, hawk's probably town for blurting that info.
@GJ: What are your reads on the game? (Sorry if I missed this, but quickly checking the thread didn't allow me to find any).
I want to Hunt to start posting. I want to confirm/deny my suspicion of him.
@Tom: Why do you think Rob is scum?
@Nacho: Why is Necarg town? Want to let me in on this one?
I've posted my reasoning in this post; feel free to let me know if you want me to dig it up for you.
I've read/skimmed the posts I haven't directly responded to, losing steam so am expediting the process so I can do other things within the next 10 minutes.
The heart behind this vote is being underwhelmed, which is mainly a meta read (sorry). The main thing that stands out to me in his play as town is how hard he pushes reads and how he manages to make reads and jump into the fray of things and how unafraid he is to do so: in every game I've seen him in, he has possessed and pushed strong reads early and so his statement of being "lost" rings pretty hollow to me.
I didn't like his initial pushes on Jobie/Proph for voting non-players. It is the easiest thing you can attack early game (because it's weird and not normal), and his push lacked any sort of oomph behind it at all (he let Jobie off the hook because "voting for an NPC sort of had a reason", and then voted Proph when he pointed out he voted for Tar). His stances on Tom and TS (TS's emotion is genuine, Tom is typical Tom) are very surface-level and don't feel like an effort to engage in the game in any way whatsoever; if I was trying to characterize his entire ISO in a word, it would be "empty" and that's not how town ISOs look.
a full explanation of that thing that happened, since im not gonna interact anymore for the sake of everyone's enjoyment so it will no longer apply:
this closely mirrored my attacks on tapping in previous games. this was on purpose.
i came out confident ts was scum and explained why. i did not have that much actual confidence at the start (i do now).
in the past, town ts reacted with anger, condescension (not really relevant tbh, as its his default), omgus, and fervor to refute every single point
now theres no way to be sure if town ts would react the same way here. it is, at its base, a very emotional reaction. i cant really know if i would strike the same chords and bring out his righteous indignation.
but what i was sure of is that scum ts would pretend to react this way. and i think thats what happened.
he was angry, but not emotional. he voted me, but i dont really think he believes im scum. he tried to refute some points, but just didnt have that fervor. and then just sort of stopped trying. this is not town ts.
and FTR, i dont actually think he was trying to rolefish. at least not consciously.
i think hes a little angry he got scumread for the wrong reasons.
@nacho what makes you think proph was shot? did they shoot him in midair?
i think ghosting approaches things very differently than me. i get a strong sense of "other" when reading his posts and i dont think its about alignment.
@imab something ive been wondering. it could be important.
how do you feel about your game in the classic? do you plan to do more lying as town?
@mod(s) : still waiting on results of investigation
I am not really focused on flavor: when I use the phrase "shot", I mean to say "killed" but I'm expecting what killed him was a dayvig because that's usually the role that kills people during the day (and this dayvig is very very likely a SK, thus we have an SK who is familiar with and afraid of Proph and also an ass).
I don't agree with your characterization with TS's play, although I haven't read his recent play all that closely. I don't think TS as scum would have a problem responding to your early push as scum: I think he would be able to refute your arguments against them because they was dumb and would be legitimately angry about being suspected for unreasonable reasons and would have that anger regardless of his alignment. I don't believe there's a significant difference between being "caught for the wrong reasons" and "being suspected for the wrong reasons": some people have deviating reactions to these two things based on who they are as people and how they feel about their scum/town games, but I think that being able to tell why someone is angry is an advanced emotional tell and requires pretty strong familiarity with a player.
@nacho your necarg read is all but identical to my hans read.
maybe we're both right.
his conspicuously not receiving a warning is odd. he also edited a post and "liked" a couple posts. but that role seems like it could be either alignment. unvote:
and yes, im openly being overconfident this game. i will be presenting all of my opinions as facts.
its kinda fun.
i find it more likely something screwy is going on with proph than an SK.
maybe to do with summoning iso?
a suicide?
like, maybe he was pushed. but we would have noticed someone carrying him up to a high point.
and while i disagree, i see where youre at with tapping. and it makes sense.
Game based on another game?
What are you talking about?
Do you know why you aren’t on the player list?
This world has certain mechanics in it yes? Based roughly on a card game you might know as Mao.
Either way three strikes and you are out.
As I have said, it most certainly is not the second day and so I am not here.
Here we go again with the crazy talk. Okay, I at least started to grasp what you meant about the game within the game stuff.
Who do you think is playing the game by not playing?
Seppel comes to mind as one such player. But also those pretending to moderate the game are suspicious characters indeed are they not?
Mad isn't it that there would be rules that one has to follow, but they are not certain what those rules are.
I don’t know the game Mao. But I am looking forward to you not having to talk in riddles…
@Hunt-I said WHY did Hans CLAIM credit? There is nothing ****ing related to roles in any of my questions. That is the misrep that is pissing me off. I dont give a flying you know what about his role and Tom knows that.
How could Tom possibly know that? Everything he was saying pointed to the fact that he DID NOT know that.
Nacho, I need you to do something. I believe you and hope we can be friends this game. Unfortunately, there is this voice I consider quite reliable that is telling me your role is a scum role. Tell me Nacho, why would she tell me such a thing?
@IMAB: Want to share with the rest of us why TS is town?
Because his behavior is town. It's one of those things hard to describe. I see his though process coming from town. I see his frustration at the accusation of "rolefishing" as townie. To be clear it's not the frustration that's townie, it's the way he's displaying that frustration.
Scum rage is still rational and has a logical thought process. Town rage tends to be more visceral and less logical.
BTW, "rolefishing" is in the eye of the beholder which is why T.S. doesn't consider his action rolefishing and other people do. Hence the fuel of his frustration. You all can keep fighting but Tappingstones is town and I'm more likely to scumread the people pushing him about it. This argument is obviously about how people define terms.
I agree with your assessment totally. TS is very likely town. I see your point about “rolefishing” but if you want to go down the “it’s subjective” road, than everything in this whole game of Mafia can be viewed that way. Scumreads, rolefishing, misreps, etc etc etc. All can be subjective.
Tom town firmed hans without good reasoning. I asked for a better explanation and crap was given.
There is one thing that he said that makes me wonder if I'm wrong about him but I'll let him respond to TS before I elaborate. I think if I add more pressure to him he might implode regardless of alignment which would be bad.
@Proph
What do you think of GJ's no lynch suggestion/opener?
Raw emotion or “implosion” would be a great way to get some unfiltered interaction from someone. Why would you feel the need to stop just short of getting so really raw data?
Just started reading the game this morning before school and urge everyone to reread all of Tom's posts. If that's too much to ask, check out these ones: #38, #40, #48, #60, #73, #88, and #125. He calls almost everyone town (either directly or through compliments or otherwise obvious buddying), especially Hans, ignores questions, and post #88 alone feels sooo obviously scummy. My notes on his posts don't include a single positive town trait, and I'm possibly willing to share these notes at a later point (as in my insights into every single post so far, I've also been keeping track of player interactions and some other things).
Vote: tomsloger.
I currently have a strong town read on TappingStones and leukovirus, their motivations and how they're acting seem very townlike overall, pretty much in line with how I have been reading/feeling so far. 7hawk77 seems off because of his vote on TappingStones so quickly after tom and a couple other things, DoTArchon seems off for post #85 and some other things. At school right now so reading and posting from my phone for the most part.
Hello Scum! Welcome to the game… So, what exactly about Dota screams scum to you? Or if you weren’t calling him scum, and he’s just “off,” What exactly is off? If it isn’t clear, I think you are manufacturing bologna to look busy…
OK, now I'm sure TS is scum. This defensive rage is much more faked and lazy than his other furies.
"Already getting hard to remember all the lies, isn't it Tom?" - Already starting off with the oldest trick in the book: Nonsensically attacking the person, not his actions.
"Nice try avoiding the question. I said to share with us this easy town read/tell you have on Hans." - Again, but this one is even less founded. He's just ignoring the actual answer here: It doesn't ******* matter. TS is just trying to find something to be angry at, and Hans and Tom were the first things he saw. The TS I know doesn't get half as bent out of shape over stuff like this.
"This is laughable. What information did he share with us Tom? That he ended the day. The obvious question would first be "Why did Hans end the day? What is the town motivation? You still have failed to provide any town motivation." - This is my main gripe. This is lazy, a terrible play, and gives more ground to the scum in every way. @TS: YOUR job is to find town motivation. Telling someone else to do it for you is stupid, lazy, and unreasonable. Hans is town because Scum would never A) Use the ability like that, and B) Claim it because that would draw attention to them to that they could screw up. You are being lazy and nonsensically angry.
"Now you are trying to spin this away from you, perhaps trying to lead DOTA to jump in on your defense? Otherwise what is the reason for this statement? Certainly no town motivation here." - WTF. TS just casually ignores Tom's entire statement and says it has no town motivation, when it is calling him out on his laziness and nonsense. I don't see town motivation in just reading what you want to see and making assumptions accordingly.
"I've played with you in 3+ games now. In ALL games you have gone after me hard from the very beginning(first 1-2 days as scum). In all games I was town." - My second main gripe. He ignores all the attacks made in a paragraph of posting and said, "The last time you had me as scum, I was town." This time it's founded because he's being lazy and unreasonable. The chances of you hitting town four times in a row isn't easy.
I don't have time for anything else right now until Afternoon.
Wow! The scum decided to come into the thread at the same time. Neat…
This is gross for many of the reasons that have already been stated. Your point about TS having the burden of finding the town motivation himself is a good one, though.
@TS: I guess someone needs to point to you that just because something doesn't have town motivation behind it, it doesn't equate with that there's scum motivation behind it. (For example, most of Seppel's crazy plays have no town motivation behind them, but at the same time, there's no scum motivation behind them either.)
If you want people to believe you, try telling us why Hansa is scum instead.
Necarg's #155 just feels yucky.
I feel okay about Ghostling.
Thank you for pointing that out to TS. I was going to do that myself, but you beat me to it.
What is making you feel okay about Ghost?
Someone trying to answer my questions! Sweet. LEUK is this so called day two any different? As far as Im concerned this is still day one.
honestly, i cant see any difference between this day 2, and a normal day 1. so i was thinking my only guess as to why hans ended day 1 is that it has to do with day 1 or night 1 abilities or something that i just dont know about. not knowing things makes me suspicious of people. i may not be scumreading him, but i cant get comfortable with this doubt i have about his alignment or motives because of it.
if he was town, knowing that he should end the day and skip the night because of some danger hes aware of that we arent, id like us to also be aware of it. and the fact that he didnt share is whats making me uneasy.
if hes worried about making himself a target, why not just skip the night again until he can get someone protecting him.
if its just a one shot, and he cant do that, then why use it day one in the first place.
i just made a lot of assumptions and guesses about why/how his ability works. i wouldnt have to make those assumptions/guesses if i had more information.
sorry for repeating myself so much, but hans is suspicious until i have a more solid reasoning on his behalf for that action.
Hmmm. Not feeling your response here either Leuko. This again feels like some hardcore fishing, combined with trying to strongarm/guilt trip Hans into giving up the info. Scum points for you!
@IABM-Which vote would you say looks the worst on me right now?
I think Tom and Necarg both look like places to start. Tom has dug his feet in to an indefensible position and Necarg jumping on the way he did looks bad.
Tom is stuck in his typical "tunnel vision".
I'm not sure if Necarg's post is alignment indicative though.
DoTArchon's vote actually looks worse than Necarg but special mention goes to Huntzilla's "pre-planned defense" accusation in post 117. I didn't like that at all.
Anything wrong with the pre-planned defense aside from you don’t agree? If it makes you feel better I don’t believe it was scum motivated and more or less came out of TS’ dislike of Tom.
This game has weird rules. I learn possible rules (these rules might exist, might not). Today I learned the rule that if someone's role contradicts a game rule, the role will win.
Sweet, I have a bunch of questions, but I am going to refrain and see where this takes us instead. No need for more info to be dumped until you feel ready.
Rob: I've seen the "TS is scum for being overreactive!" song and dance before: it's not interesting, we aren't going to get anything productive out of it. So, I prefer to shut it down before I see the same game playing before me again and again.
Tom: If Hans had a role that gave him the ability to skip a day and a night (no net gain/loss for either alignment), don't you think he would use it? Why wouldn't he claim using it as scum?
I agree yet again Nacho. The argument gets played out all the time nowadays.
@Everyone
I will go out a limb and say that both Tom and TS are unequivocally townie… together. There is no need to choose between either one. They are both town. Period.
Nacho is more than likely town as well. Lean town in my eyes.
Please explain how "we didn't need the scum getting this much information so early" knowing that. A.) This rule might not even exist in this game, it's just a possibility and B.) Why do you think this is actually useful to the scum team more so than town?
@Tom
Hey tom. You enjoying your this game so far?
@Everyone else
I think hans is my biggest town read right now.
Hans is definitely townie as well. So are you for that matter Hawk.
Okay, hawk's probably town for blurting that info.
@GJ: What are your reads on the game? (Sorry if I missed this, but quickly checking the thread didn't allow me to find any).
I want to Hunt to start posting. I want to confirm/deny my suspicion of him.
@Tom: Why do you think Rob is scum?
@Nacho: Why is Necarg town? Want to let me in on this one?
Hi Bur! You have been asking your questions, has anything fruitful come out of your labors? Also, here I am! You have not posed me any questions. What would you like me to confirm or deny for you? What is the tell you are looking for?
P.S. I am getting town Bur vibes from you, but I have been wrong the last few times we played together. Although we had each other pegged in Vanillaville.
investigate: death of prophylaxis
What did he fall from?
What did he fall on to?
Was he pushed?
Did the fall kill him? The stop at the bottom?
Are both of those vote counts accurate? Neither?
What is this investigate you speak of? Why has no one else commented on that?
V/LA from now until the 24th, I'll attempt to post on Friday and Monday, but no guarantees.
You are scaring me Jobie. I know you have been really busy lately but I need something from you before I scream for your head on a platter. Will you do a venn diagram for me?
I just PBPA'ed Bur and it's a little disturbing. His posts seem really careful and they don't line up that well.
He spends a lot of time focusing on me and not just on suspicion. He asks me not to talk about on-going games (even though at the time it was clear that Tom was also referring to an on-going game with his Hansa post).
Starts off saying that Tom is town, then in his next reference to Tom he says that he only feels ok about it, besides the slapfight. It's like Bur wants to support Tom but doesn't want to appear too close to him. He wants to cast suspicious against me because I am suspicious of Tom.
Makes a very strange post saying that Hansa's motivation doesn't have to be scum motivated, even though I never implied this.
Is very self-conscious about his post count. Makes reference that he has the 4th most posts...like huh?? How are you even thinking about this? I know I have posted a lot but I didn't search to see my rank.
A lot of busy work questions that just feel faked.
I like this TS. In terms of meta though, Bur does this as both alignments. We need a little more time before we can go full bore on him, but one of the big tell-tale signs for Bur is if the questions lead nowhere and aren’t followed up on. Good catch though.
@imab im not sure im clear what FoS is. how many fingers do you have, and how many can you point at once before they lose all meaning?
You clearly know what FoS is if you say in the next sentence “how many fingers.” I get your question, as I asked it a different way above, but this makes you look like a liar.
You were clearly referring to the on-going game and when I pushed the issue you mentioned some game which you didn't even play in and refused to reference where the "easy to read" tells are in that game. [snip]
Do you get to see my PBPA? What do you mean "see it"? Am I supposed to take a photo of my notes?
dude, i was not referring to stargate. like, i just wasnt.
ive never had a specific past post to reference. i have a general idea of hans as a mafia player, which is far more valuable to me.
im really gonna need you to stop accusing me of breaking the rules. if you want to argue that im scum, thats fine. thats what youve done to every person whos ever called you scum regardless of your alignment (and a thing i think youre faking now that you finally are scum)
and sorry if youre taking notes on paper like a chump.
i was under the impression that a post by post analysis was a thing you posted in the thread. but mafia terminology isnt exactly my strong suit.
PbPA is something that is generally posted in thread with the quotes to back up what you are saying, but just because TS did it long hand doesn’t mean it holds no value. If you want to check it open another tab and compare them by flipping back and forth.
Nachomamma8
I like him, I like his role. The paranoia about the game style is the only second of hesitance I would give to this slot.
Strong town read from me, Lean town read from us.
I was wondering the same thing. Who is this we? Is it Nati? Why do I feel it is Nati?
Okay so basically to sum all that up...
Hans, Tom, TS, Imab, Nacho, Hawk, Kj, Bur all seem pretty darn townie to me. No particular order, but Bur is on the lower end of the spectrum.
Anak, GJ, D_V, Rob Roy are Null. Jobie is null but closer to scum lean until I get some more from him.
I am not liking Leuko, Ghosting, Necarg, or Dota. Ghosting and Necarg are my top two scumspects.
Vote: Necarg
Darth Melvin very well could be super lurking scum... But nothing to go on at this point...
i know what FoS stands for, just not what it does. i understand it has a functionality in some games, though ive never seen it.
btw my "investigate:" had no game functionality. that i know of.
what do you think of nacho's point re: necarg?
oh, and what TS said was meh. its really about how he said it.
i understand why people are townreading him. i actually think hes doing a great job in his first scum game.
but i got him way early and im not gonna let him forget it in future games.
The heart behind this vote is being underwhelmed, which is mainly a meta read (sorry). The main thing that stands out to me in his play as town is how hard he pushes reads and how he manages to make reads and jump into the fray of things and how unafraid he is to do so: in every game I've seen him in, he has possessed and pushed strong reads early and so his statement of being "lost" rings pretty hollow to me.
I didn't like his initial pushes on Jobie/Proph for voting non-players. It is the easiest thing you can attack early game (because it's weird and not normal), and his push lacked any sort of oomph behind it at all (he let Jobie off the hook because "voting for an NPC sort of had a reason", and then voted Proph when he pointed out he voted for Tar). His stances on Tom and TS (TS's emotion is genuine, Tom is typical Tom) are very surface-level and don't feel like an effort to engage in the game in any way whatsoever; if I was trying to characterize his entire ISO in a word, it would be "empty" and that's not how town ISOs look.
FoS: Azrael
Meta fail.
I did have good reasons for voting Jobie and Proph. However it turned out that NPC's are in this game. Apparently so are Taredas and Azrael in some fashion.
As for the TS/Tom discussion I think you should re-read my assessments there. That read on TS is not surface level. As for tom, yeah it's very much a "gives 0 ****s" read but if you recall I was fine with just faking a guilty on him because I had such a strong read. And I'll give myself full credit for helping to lynch someone who was "not town". Trust me, when I think I've got something solid I'll be sure to let people know.
As for my Iso being "empty" I think that's a mischaracterization. Even when I stated why I felt lost there was reasons for doing so unless you would like to elaborate on why those reasons felt faked. Compare how easy it was to catch EtR, Sir Chris, and to a lesser extent GentleMan Johnny in Classic. This makes me believe that the scum are just better players which is why I said I'm paranoid of you and 7Hawk. Speaking of you...
@IMAB: Want to share with the rest of us why TS is town?
Because his behavior is town. It's one of those things hard to describe. I see his though process coming from town. I see his frustration at the accusation of "rolefishing" as townie. To be clear it's not the frustration that's townie, it's the way he's displaying that frustration.
Scum rage is still rational and has a logical thought process. Town rage tends to be more visceral and less logical.
BTW, "rolefishing" is in the eye of the beholder which is why T.S. doesn't consider his action rolefishing and other people do. Hence the fuel of his frustration. You all can keep fighting but Tappingstones is town and I'm more likely to scumread the people pushing him about it. This argument is obviously about how people define terms.
This read on Tappingstones is hardly "surface level" and it goes into detail about exactly why T/S is angry AND differentiates between town/scum frustrations.
You're better than this Nacho...
Unvote: No Lynch Vote: Nachomamma8
Oh yeah. And you never did answer if you can governor yourself from last game...
Yo peeps. Free pizza and wings at my house! This is an impressive catch and we all gotta celebrate!
I'm with tom on this one. Jumping from "I don't think you've summarized me correctly" to "you are misrepresenting scum" needs more support than this. Otherwise it just looks like OMGUS.
@Huntzilla: Why are IMAB and KJ town to you? I like your opening posts so far.
IMAB: Could you remind me why you voted Jobie and Proph if my initial interpretation was a misrep of your read?
I also still think that your TS read was surface level: there were a lot of words, yes, but the reasoning just quite wasn't there and I'll try to expand on that during my lunch.
@Nacho In general, I would say there is no reason not to use the fairy dust as scum. However, this game is not general, and there could be a negative consequence for targetting someone with anything? Essentially, I wouldn't put anything out of reach in this game. As a result, there would be no reason to lie about it that I could see either. The reason that claiming that action draws attention to him is that, while the action was (potentially) useless, it was very noticeable from everyone. The difference between that and your fairy dust is that nobody would actually know you used the fairy dust, where here it was blatantly obvious that something had happened. Nobody would have known that hans did it, except he stepped up and claimed that he did, hence the attention drawing.
Tom and anak both town cleared hans instantly without evidence. Can you please explain your thoughts on those players?
I what? Pretty sure that I said what he did was a townie action, and sure I put hans in my town pile at the time for it. But to say that I town cleared him instantly is taking that a bit far, I in no way think he is confirmed. Also, he wasn't countered by anyone, which is certainly some evidence towards what he says no?
Agreed with others on IMAB above. Nacho votes you IMAB, he even admits that its not a very strong vote, and you sort of explain/counter that. But proceeding to vote him back like that is just so weak, what part of what Nacho did was scummy? Sure, he voted you, but why does that make him scum? You say that he had a below surface level read, but why is scum!Nacho more likely to do that than town!Nacho?
@Huntzilla: Why are IMAB and KJ town to you? I like your opening posts so far.
IMAB: Could you remind me why you voted Jobie and Proph if my initial interpretation was a misrep of your read?
I also still think that your TS read was surface level: there were a lot of words, yes, but the reasoning just quite wasn't there and I'll try to expand on that during my lunch.
Scum vote players outside of the game so that they can avoid contributing game content while also falsely appearing relaxed or playful. That's why the "tell" exists: because it's classic busywork masquerading as a contribution.
However since both NPC's and Taredas/Azrael are in this game in some fashion, voting for them is actually game relevant. Thus negating the "tell". You expect me to keep voting someone when it turns out that the reason for the vote was false? You've mistaken zeal with blind tunneling. Nacho, you're better than that.
@whomever...
OMGUS is a core strategy of my gameplay.
I omgus'd Zionite in Animal mafia and he was scum.
I omgus'd KamikazeArchon in Avante Garde and he was scum.
I OMGUS'd Askthepizzaguy, and Vezokpiraka off OMGUS and then POE'd Koolkoal off their flips.
So yes it's literally OMGUS. Who gives a crap? OMGUS=OH MY GOD U SUK and Nacho's reasoning sucks.
IMAB: Your read on Tapping was surface-level because you didn't actually look into his behaviors. You said he was angry because he wasn't role fishing and the role fishing accusation was pretty garbage (no one is disputing this), and you said townie anger is less logical than scum anger (most are not disputing this). What you didn't do is show why you thought TS's anger was less logical: Tom's case on TS is that his anger is too logical (he's getting angry because he has to, not because he feels it) and a harder, deeper read, would be explaining why his emotion was genuine, not just saying that it is.
That being said, your push on me has the drive that you've been lacking recently, so I'm not really interested in the push on you.
To the OMGUS accusations, I don't think it's a bad play: IMAB as town expects me to read him right, and so when I fail to do that, he pushes back.
@Anak: The point that I'm trying to bring forward here is that the only use for a power that does nothing (but everyone knows it's been used) is that it's a confirmed power. As scum, you use powers like these simply because there is no other play: I don't believe that there are very many mafia players so afraid of playing scum that they don't use a power because they have to claim they used a power and think it's an insult to Hans as a player to suggest he would be too afraid of drawing such a tiny amount of attention.
@Hawk: Those rules are core rules based on Tar's last 5 Mind Screws: I took out the game specific rules in Mind Screw V and that's what was left.
Addendum to the Hans thing though: Tom has pointed out that my Necarg read is identical to the Hans read that I've been criticizing, which combined with some recent good behavior from Hans has sort of sucked my interest in talking about why I didn't agree with early Hans reads.
In other news,
Unvote, Vote: Ghosting
I'd love to make this vote more substantial but probably won't until I get into a computer; when I look at the playlist, that name stands out but I don't really remember why.
I'm back. I've been trying to keep up with the game but have no notes beyond my V/LA post so want to reread before I post any further thoughts. For now: Unvote
Just started reading the game this morning before school and urge everyone to reread all of Tom's posts. If that's too much to ask, check out these ones: #38, #40, #48, #60, #73, #88, and #125. He calls almost everyone town (either directly or through compliments or otherwise obvious buddying), especially Hans, ignores questions, and post #88 alone feels sooo obviously scummy. My notes on his posts don't include a single positive town trait, and I'm possibly willing to share these notes at a later point (as in my insights into every single post so far, I've also been keeping track of player interactions and some other things).
Vote: tomsloger.
I currently have a strong town read on TappingStones and leukovirus, their motivations and how they're acting seem very townlike overall, pretty much in line with how I have been reading/feeling so far. 7hawk77 seems off because of his vote on TappingStones so quickly after tom and a couple other things, DoTArchon seems off for post #85 and some other things. At school right now so reading and posting from my phone for the most part.
#38 is Tom declaring Hans town for reasons that would later be mimicked by Anak/others? I don't think this read was unreasonable.
#40 is Tom talking about his Hans read.
#48 is Tom saying that he likes where Bur's head is at; I can see this being a weird observation due to a lack of stances in Bur's post other than the Nacho!town read, which was not a read Tom expressed.
#60 is an extrapolation of the Hans townread.
#73 is telling Hans not to claim anymore, not sure how that's calling someone town directly or through compliments.
#88 is Tom talking ***** about his TS scum read.
#125 is Tom telling Hunt good job on the early catchup.
I don't see how these posts, as a whole, show Tom calling everyone town. He's called Hans town several times, sure, but I don't see why it has to be buddying over having a very strong town read. I don't understand why #88 is so scummy when TS (a strong town read) has made statements of a similar nature if my memory isn't failing me, and I don't really like the mention of having a bunch of notes without sharing: if you have thoughts on the game that you think is beneficial, why wouldn't you just share them? Why would instead you brag about an alert everyone to their presence and then do nothing with them?
I'd also be interested in you expanding on the leukovirus read: my guess is you're reading leuko as town because leuko is a member of the Team TappingStones camp, but I wouldn't mind being pleasantly surprised if there was another reason for it.
I think this post also suffers the problem of being a surface read: Ghosting seems to just be tossing his hat in the TappingStones corner without backing it up too much (his TS read in particular ignored all of the arguments surrounding him and instead goes "he's townie"), and all of his reads seem to be centered around who is in the TS camp and who is in the Tom camp (Tom is scum, person who voted TS is scum, DoT is scum for following Tom. TS is town, leuko, who called TS town, is also town), which seems like a pretty easy position for scum to take - he's saying things he believes TS and TS supporters would like and trying to encourage the Tom-Tapping fight.
(I should be quoting stuff, but in a bit of a rush, have two tests tomorrow in chemistry and physics so in between studying and reading this.)
@Tom: 1) I mentioned 5 or so posts where you either straight up called people town or made comments that implied they were town. You're welcome to check them again if you need, I made sure to reference the posts so it'd be easy to verify.
2) Out of curiosity, how much Mafia have you played? Do you have your past games linked anywhere so I can check some out?
3) Doesn't a publicly revealed shot alongside a no lynch only hurt the town? We would then be giving scum a free night to kill as well as a confirmed town player for them to get rid of. It provides us with no information, and it's already so early on. As far as I see it, that would only give the scum a really easy early game. With that in mind, I've played almost exclusively basics, so correct me if I'm wrong.
4) If you aren't certain that TS is scum (you have a 20% uncertainty, and have also said he isn't overtly scummy), why are you trying to get him lynched so quickly? We have plenty of time and a LOT going on right now, as well as a lot of players who have barely said anything.
@Hawk: Seconding Rob, did you not see my request? We really didn't need scum to be getting this much information so early, at least not without some kind of discussion beforehand.
@Prophylaxis: Can you tell me why you think imab is town? All I saw was that you said he felt town, but you didn't let us know why.
This is Ghosting's first significant followup on Tom, and the followup is weak. In a nutshell, the post is:
1) I said that you called people town in 5 posts.
2) How much mafia have you played?
3) Isn't publicly confirmed alignment + no lynch bad? I don't know if I'm right!
4) You're 80% certain TS is scum. Why are you pushing for a lynch too quickly?
None of this seems like legitimate inquiry or a legitimate push determining Tom's alignment.
The rest of his ISO is peppered with questions like this which don't really seem to be asking anything or pushing anything, would be interested in his followup to my attack of his case on Tom and would like him to expand on his Town reads in particular. Also would love to hear TS's opinion on this specifically because I'm feeling a lot better about this vote right about now.
taking ten from work. havent read anything, sorry if i havent noticed any questions or posts directed at me. somethings been bugging me.
GJ, i think i remember you referring to one of your "friends on the other side" with she/her pronouns. and its had me thinking since.
are you receiving information from one or more of the NPCs?
I voted him to apply pressure in a situation I feel is suspicious. In my short Mafia experience whenever I'm suspicious of someone and don't vote them, the veteran players would always say "If you find him suspicious why aren't you voting him?" I've found this to be good practice(though I don't think it's a must.) I'm not a player who likes to tunnel and I pride myself on improving the fluidity of my reads so a vote like that is only going to stick if a player remains the most suspicious or there is a good reason for me to continue to apply pressure, usually that would be to keep the suspect talking.
Hm. Good answer.
It's fine for you to dislike my tone, though it's in no way alignment based as many players in this very game will attest to. I am direct, and like to try and solve the game. I'm quite aware that I can make mistakes in my reads as a new player and put pressure on others to participate. Some don't like that. You can read Predator Mafia, Mafia Classic, etc.
My main problem with it was that I felt it was a bit overly (and potentially unnaturally) aggressive. I think Rob said something along those lines as well. However, I've just noticed the quote in your sig from Nacho, which implies that maybe that's just a constant thing. Which in turn makes your tone null.
If you are active, make honest reads and try to solve the game you'll get along with me swimmingly, if you're hiding in the background, or giving weak reads I'll call you out on it. I expect the same thing in return mind you.
I'm active when I can be. I like to talk to I dislike not being active if I can help it anyway. We should get along fine.
Haven't really been paying attention to him. Nothing stands out in recent memory. I am not sure how I feel about posts like his last one. I do it as does several other players, but I always get paranoid about "catch-up posts" being just lazy scum trying to stay engaged in the game. That said, I did like most of his responses, but I don't understand the speculation on whether Proph is fully dead or not.
Prophy's flavor is a girl who kills herself, then continues communicating after she dies. Prophy is dead, therefore it's not totally out of left field that Prophy might still be active in the game somehow, although probably not in the thread. Just a thought I had. Probably won't affect us any.
Sigh. After skimming over the latest tom-Tapping exchange, I had the same feeling that I did from their earlier ones - that tom's tone was reasonable and that Tapping was being inflammatory. Then I tried going back and reading the post that tomsloger referred to, 214. And from there I re-read the last couple back-and-forths, and man, my sympathy for Tapping has gone up a lot. tom's arguments aren't nearly as coherent as I'd thought they were, and while I still disapprove of some of Tapping's comments, I no longer think that his comments are inconsistent with a townie mindset.
unvote. And since I want to reread him later, I'll vote:7hawk77 for now.
Why are you voting Hawk? Because he claimed without caring?
Also, do you believe his claim, given that that rule he claimed was one that was used in a previous iteration of this game?
@Az: Can you post for me "This statement is true" in red, please? I want to see if you can.
Negative.
Cool.
So, theory: Az is not playing like his normal self. He's not scumhunting, but he's not being intentionally deceptive, I don't think as well. IIRC he can't be voted.
Az was a reviewer. He knows the setup. He does not know who has what role however. My thought is maybe he's some sort of special role that needs to find the person who has a role (or a person who has a flavor name perhaps) to win. Either way, he's not playing the same game we are, and therefore I won't be spending anymore time trying to figure him out. He's unlikely to be antitown. I think.
2) null. my gut is leaning town. but the ending the day thing still doesnt compute.
Ok.
I can't really see any scum motives for doing what he did. The only motive I see here is "Why the hell not?" because he would have had no other info. (Unless he's scum and one of his buddies has an ability that benefits from it. But currently we have no such info, so if one flips we can revisit this.)
I still don't consider what he did "ending the day" because he didn't. He just set the Day to a higher number and skipped a night phase.
Taredas is the moderator, true - this does not mean Tar doesn't have a role in the game. In previous Mind Screws (five or so?), Tar has had a role in the game as moderator.
Sorry for boring posts recently, but have been busy during work and posting during lunch so this is all you're getting for now.
Has he now? I'll need to look into that. I mean, at most he might be controlling the NPCs or something. He likely doesn't have a wincon or anything, therefore likely isn't scum, and therefore isn't worth our time debating at this time.
So you don't like me taking no stance on someone after disliking a post they made?
My initial scum read is now my biggest town read. It's page 6 on day 1 and most people are still null to me. I'm not sure if ghost is scum or just has a different view of the game than I do.
Tom and anak both town cleared hans instantly without evidence. Can you please explain your thoughts on those players?
Wait, 300 posts in you're still null on most people? Is that usual for you?
As an aside, I saw a Godfatherizer in Tar's last Mind Screw and don't want to give Mafia the opportunity to make themselves investigative-immune if they think that I'm going to govern a target, so I AM NOT GUARANTEED TO BE GOVERNING/REVEALING ON THE FIRST DAY. DO NOT TRUST MY RESULTS COMPLETELY EVEN AFTER I AM DEAD AND CONFIRMED TOWN.
You know... the more you post the less I trust you. Maybe it was the Overly Helpful vibe you were giving off with all the Rules posting.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
i think ghosting approaches things very differently than me. i get a strong sense of "other" when reading his posts and i dont think its about alignment.
@Nacho why do you think that Hans ability has no other effect on the game besides showing everyone it happened? DV made enough of an effort debating the day to make it feel like it had at least some effect on the game? You seem to know more about the effect of Hans ability than you are letting on.
Question for all. Why was Proph killed over anyone else? Nacho has claimed some pretty strong abilities, as an example, why do people think he was killed?
Just started reading the game this morning before school and urge everyone to reread all of Tom's posts. If that's too much to ask, check out these ones: #38, #40, #48, #60, #73, #88, and #125. He calls almost everyone town (either directly or through compliments or otherwise obvious buddying), especially Hans, ignores questions, and post #88 alone feels sooo obviously scummy. My notes on his posts don't include a single positive town trait, and I'm possibly willing to share these notes at a later point (as in my insights into every single post so far, I've also been keeping track of player interactions and some other things).
Vote: tomsloger.
I currently have a strong town read on TappingStones and leukovirus, their motivations and how they're acting seem very townlike overall, pretty much in line with how I have been reading/feeling so far. 7hawk77 seems off because of his vote on TappingStones so quickly after tom and a couple other things, DoTArchon seems off for post #85 and some other things. At school right now so reading and posting from my phone for the most part.
#38 is Tom declaring Hans town for reasons that would later be mimicked by Anak/others? I don't think this read was unreasonable.
#40 is Tom talking about his Hans read.
#48 is Tom saying that he likes where Bur's head is at; I can see this being a weird observation due to a lack of stances in Bur's post other than the Nacho!town read, which was not a read Tom expressed.
#60 is an extrapolation of the Hans townread.
#73 is telling Hans not to claim anymore, not sure how that's calling someone town directly or through compliments.
#88 is Tom talking ***** about his TS scum read.
#125 is Tom telling Hunt good job on the early catchup.
I don't see how these posts, as a whole, show Tom calling everyone town. He's called Hans town several times, sure, but I don't see why it has to be buddying over having a very strong town read. I don't understand why #88 is so scummy when TS (a strong town read) has made statements of a similar nature if my memory isn't failing me, and I don't really like the mention of having a bunch of notes without sharing: if you have thoughts on the game that you think is beneficial, why wouldn't you just share them? Why would instead you brag about an alert everyone to their presence and then do nothing with them?
I'd also be interested in you expanding on the leukovirus read: my guess is you're reading leuko as town because leuko is a member of the Team TappingStones camp, but I wouldn't mind being pleasantly surprised if there was another reason for it.
I think this post also suffers the problem of being a surface read: Ghosting seems to just be tossing his hat in the TappingStones corner without backing it up too much (his TS read in particular ignored all of the arguments surrounding him and instead goes "he's townie"), and all of his reads seem to be centered around who is in the TS camp and who is in the Tom camp (Tom is scum, person who voted TS is scum, DoT is scum for following Tom. TS is town, leuko, who called TS town, is also town), which seems like a pretty easy position for scum to take - he's saying things he believes TS and TS supporters would like and trying to encourage the Tom-Tapping fight.
(I should be quoting stuff, but in a bit of a rush, have two tests tomorrow in chemistry and physics so in between studying and reading this.)
@Tom: 1) I mentioned 5 or so posts where you either straight up called people town or made comments that implied they were town. You're welcome to check them again if you need, I made sure to reference the posts so it'd be easy to verify.
2) Out of curiosity, how much Mafia have you played? Do you have your past games linked anywhere so I can check some out?
3) Doesn't a publicly revealed shot alongside a no lynch only hurt the town? We would then be giving scum a free night to kill as well as a confirmed town player for them to get rid of. It provides us with no information, and it's already so early on. As far as I see it, that would only give the scum a really easy early game. With that in mind, I've played almost exclusively basics, so correct me if I'm wrong.
4) If you aren't certain that TS is scum (you have a 20% uncertainty, and have also said he isn't overtly scummy), why are you trying to get him lynched so quickly? We have plenty of time and a LOT going on right now, as well as a lot of players who have barely said anything.
@Hawk: Seconding Rob, did you not see my request? We really didn't need scum to be getting this much information so early, at least not without some kind of discussion beforehand.
@Prophylaxis: Can you tell me why you think imab is town? All I saw was that you said he felt town, but you didn't let us know why.
This is Ghosting's first significant followup on Tom, and the followup is weak. In a nutshell, the post is:
1) I said that you called people town in 5 posts.
2) How much mafia have you played?
3) Isn't publicly confirmed alignment + no lynch bad? I don't know if I'm right!
4) You're 80% certain TS is scum. Why are you pushing for a lynch too quickly?
None of this seems like legitimate inquiry or a legitimate push determining Tom's alignment.
The rest of his ISO is peppered with questions like this which don't really seem to be asking anything or pushing anything, would be interested in his followup to my attack of his case on Tom and would like him to expand on his Town reads in particular. Also would love to hear TS's opinion on this specifically because I'm feeling a lot better about this vote right about now.
I actually really like this post by Ghosting but I'm Iso'ing him today and will hopefully have a better idea about him afterwards.
@Nacho- Do you not thing Necarg is worthy to apply pressure to? He seems worse than Ghosting right now. Ghosting's posts seem interactive enough that we'll gain insights as flips happen. Necarg on the otherhand is barely posting and his only significant action was barning Tom hard against me and presenting a really pathetic attack on me.
I anticipate DOTA will back off of me slowly as is already evidenced by his unvote.
What's wrong guys? You thought the wagon was going to be easy, didn't you?
My main concern is that I feel completely lost as far as set-up is concerned and I just don't have the time to go read these other Mind Screw games. Can someone give me the main gist on what might happen in this game, with NPCs, etc?
Things are finally getting more interesting now that more players are participating.
I just got off a closing bar shift and am doing the same thing starting 1pm tomorrow, but I will definitely be responding to some things tomorrow morning or Sunday as that's my off day.
I definitely enjoyed your look into me, Nacho, although a few of your sentences seem constructed in a way that over or under exaggerate parts for the benefit of your interrogation. A lot of simplifications as well, in instances like who I'm calling town, or that I haven't listed reasons for TappingS (I listed three as far as I remember). There's more examples of this, and maybe that's your play style? Obviously, people are going to attempt to be more persuasive when they're trying to convince people of something, but the extent to which your language is manipulated appears excessive. Does that make sense? Others are free to look at it and decide for themselves, I'll point it out specifically when I'm on my computer.
Also, perhaps we have different play styles, not all of my comments and interactions need be "significant follow ups", as you labeled, especially so early on. There's a lot that can be gained from simple conversation.
As I've said before, I always prefer more discussion over less or no discussion, so I welcome all players to join in on this and am open to any and all questions. I'll make sure to respond to yours when I'm back on my computer, Nacho, sorry I couldn't get to it tonight. About to pass out right now as much as I wish my day didn't go wake up -> work -> sleep and then tomorrow wake up -> work -> sleep.
Also, just to quickly point out, if you do break down my t/s reads, you'll see it is more complex than the simple blanket of "people who think TS is town and people who don't". I would say this is one of the examples of points you seem to be tossing out there that are a little misconstrued.
Additionally, provided my explanations expanded beyond simply that, it wouldn't be a poor excuse to include it as a supporting factor either side if I believe TS is a town player. If I believe a player is town, I am much more inclined to believe a player attacking them, and then players trying to get in on that, are also worthy of suspicion.
He didn't. I disagree with some of his logic but he isn't "playing dumb" as what I would expect from scum tom.
Also I think he is very prone to blatantly scumslipping so I'm not worried.
What scum meta does Tom have? I have only seen neutral Tom in Classic.
Quote from leukovirus »
are you receiving information from one or more of the NPCs?
Not information, merely a check to my inner balance. I doubt "NPC" is an accurate title for this individual.
Quote from Anak »
Question for all. Why was Proph killed over anyone else? Nacho has claimed some pretty strong abilities, as an example, why do people think he was killed?
We have a theory. It is possible as long as Tare is alive, a person will be killed at random for failure to engage in a lynch. I am unsure if this is accurate or not, and still working on theory.
my gut here says those are scummy posts from ghosting.
i am unconvinced either way about nacho, though ive got a solid inkling imab is scumreading him in earnest. maybe theyre buddies, but probably not.
i dont think i reregistered a vote after reset, so vote: ghosting
FoS: tapping
prod request: necarg, melvin
if none of those 4 people is scum, i will eat yogurt (i hate yogurt)
Is this in response to the first thing I said, about disliking your phrasing on Ghosting? Because I don't read "not completely sold you are scum" as no stance. I read it as strong condemnation - "I think you are scum, but still have some small doubts." Except the exact way that it was phrased allows you to reverse course immediately if you want to.
Looking back, this seems to be about hans. Supported by your posts.
Why are you making a point of saying this now?
Getting back to my point from above - this position allows you to be very opportunistic in your dealings with Ghosting in the future. If he falters, you can pounce on him and claim the scum read. If he gets townie cred, you can back off and still have cover. It's a very useful position for scum, which is why I am suspicious of it.
As I mentioned above, I found tom to be townie on skim, and less so when read in detail. I'd need to do a reread to get a full position on him, but don't remember anything jumping out at me as obviously problematic. His comment on hans is certainly a defensible position, even if I don't necessarily agree with it - I can imagine too many possible reasons why scum-hansanator would advance us a day and still claim it. Similar rationale applies to Anak's post, which uses the same logic. Outside of that, though, I don't really have a read on Anak - hopefully he'll provide us with more data points in the near future.
Isn't your statement about Tom here doing exactly what you're accusing Hawk of doing?
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Also i don't think some of your assumptions apply to me as they would to other players but that's whatever.
@everyone else
Speaking of doubts.
unvote Tom
The tapping and tom is town vs town.
I have a few meta reasons why I think Tom is town but blah blah on going game cant elaborate wit concrete examples. Let's just say he would make even less sense if he was scum... and if I am wrong and he is, he will still be caught pretty quickly.
Outdated Mafia Stats
What exactly made you change your mind and think this? Anything in particular? Genuinely curious.
Why do you think he'll be caught quickly, but isn't an ideal choice right now?
[/quote]
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
He didn't. I disagree with some of his logic but he isn't "playing dumb" as what I would expect from scum tom.
Also I think he is very prone to blatantly scumslipping so I'm not worried.
Outdated Mafia Stats
My issue with Hawk is not in what he is saying, but in how he is saying it. If he, or anyone else, wants to say "I find Player X scummy/townie but am undecided," that's fine. But he phrased it like this:
"not completely sold you are scum". It's a very twistable phrase, and that's the part of what he said that I have an issue with.
Thank you for your explanation.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Second off:
<0> The first rule is that I cannot tell you any of the other rules.
<-1> I am the Mod thy God. If a dispute arises, my decision is final. That said, I am not infallible - if I make a mistake or you have a question, please inform me of the problem (preferably via PM or bold text) and I will correct it.
<-1a> Refusal to accept the moderators decision once the moderator has made it clear that the decision is final will be punished by modkill (if applicable) and blacklisting.
<-1b> I may, at my discretion, opt to use a greater punishment than usual on one or more players, provided that there is a clear pattern of more than one player violating the same rule and that the player(s) to be punished more severely broke that rule more severely or frequently than other players.
<1> This is a game. I hope that you have fun. In return, I ask that you not have your fun at the expense of the other players in this game (in other words, don't be a jackass). Repeated or extreme violations of this rule will result in replacement or modkill.
<1a> Attempting to use loopholes in the rules to gain an advantage in the game is considered jackassery, and will be treated as such. This applies to things like encrypted codes, invisible text, editing and deleting posts, etc. Please, use your common sense!
<1b> If there is any question about whether something might break the rules, it's probably best if you don't do it or at least ask first.
<1c> Rule 1 is a catchall rule; it is intended to preemptively outlaw any action I consider clearly unacceptable that I have not explicitly outlawed elsewhere, or for assigning a lesser punishment when I feel that the usual punishment for a rule violation would be too harsh. I will do my best not to use the first aspect of this rule, but if I decide that something qualifies as a Rule 1 violation then it is a Rule 1 violation. (See also Rule 0.)
<1d> Faking a violation of a rule will be treated as equivalent to actually violating that rule.
<2> If there is a conflict between a role and the rules, the role wins.
<3> Claiming that another player is your scumbuddy will result in a modkill. I have zero tolerance for scumbuddy claims.
<4> Do not quote role PMs. Violation of this rule will result in modkill. Role PM quoting includes quoting links to QuickTopics in your role PM or by paraphrases that in my judgment could only come from an actual Tarhalindur PM.
<5> You may not talk with other people about this game outside of the thread (but see Rule 2).
<6> This game will have a vote count and a FoS count. Each player will begin with 1 vote (but see Rule 2).
<6a> In a Normal game, the FoS count will have no effect on the game. Theme games make no such guarantee.
<7> To help the game run smoothly, votes and FoS'es should be made in bold text, and use the format Vote: XXXX and FoS: XXXX, respectively. An unvote and/or unFoS is required to remove a vote or FoS; to unvote or unFoS, please use the format Unvote: XXXX or UnFoS: XXXX.
<8> If a player or No Lynch has a majority of votes (or 50% of votes in the case of No Lynch), that player is lynched and cannot be unvoted. You may talk during twilight unless I state otherwise.
<9> Each game day will begin with a negotiable deadline of 2 weeks in place. At the end of each week, if I find the activity level in the game acceptable and the week does not end with the deadline, then I will extend the deadline by one week, to a maximum of twice the original deadline (a maximum of 4 weeks); the maximum deadlines are not retractable.
<10> If no one has reached majority by deadline, one of the following three things will happen:
a) If a majority of voting players are voting for a player, that player will be lynched.
b) If more than half of voting players are voting for one of two players, each of those players will send me a haiku. Whichever one is more amusing will be spared the rope. (Example: If thirteen players are voting out of 21, and 4 of those are voting for Player A and 5 are voting for Player B, Player A and Player B will need to send me haikus.)
c) If neither a) nor b) are applicable, No Lynch will occur.
<11> You may vote to No Lynch any number of times during the game. When at least 50% of voting players are voting No Lynch, No Lynch will occur. (To vote No Lynch, please use the format Vote: No Lynch. FoS'es for No Lynch will not be counted.)
<12> Don't drink and post, lest ye receive Public Humilitation. (This rule is an injoke and doesn't actually do anything.)
<14> When you die, stop posting. You may make a single "Bah!"/"Frak you!"/etc. post in the thread. You may not include game content in this post. In addition, once you are dead, please do not discuss the game with anyone other than the Mod until the game is over, as this makes the mod's life easier.
<15> All players need to post at least once every 72 hours, or inform me if this is not possible. If you do not post for 72 hours, you will be prodded. If you are prodded, then you will need to post something (a simple "/prodded" will suffice if you're short on time) within 72 hours or you will be replaced. You will receive an Official Warning the second time you fail to post for more than 72 hours. The third time you fail to post for 72 hours, you will be replaced.
<15a> If you have limited access, you need to post to this effect, either in V/LA or in the thread. If I prod you despite you declaring V/LA status, call me on it and I will be duly embarrassed.
<15b> If you post before I get around to handing out the prod, you avoid the prod.
<16> Players may only use one activeated ability per day (but see Rule 2).
<17> This game will start on Day 1 after all players have confirmed (by the method specified in their role PM).
<18> Any player who is modkilled loses the game unless I specify otherwise. I will modkill in either the fashion that I deem least damaging to the game state or the fashion that I deem most damaging to the modkilled player's faction, at my discretion.
<19> I reserve the right to add rules if necessary (or if I really, really want to).
<20> Okay, that's enough formal-sounding stuff. Good luck, have fun!
The thing I'd like to explore next is moderator roles so I can get a theory on the Azrael-Tar connection; again, realize that my content is setup-heavy but we're playing Mind Screw and a big part of why I really wanted to play this game was because I was looking forward to attempting to figure it out. Content-heavy post coming next if you're into those sorts of things.
As an aside, I saw a Godfatherizer in Tar's last Mind Screw and don't want to give Mafia the opportunity to make themselves investigative-immune if they think that I'm going to govern a target, so I AM NOT GUARANTEED TO BE GOVERNING/REVEALING ON THE FIRST DAY. DO NOT TRUST MY RESULTS COMPLETELY EVEN AFTER I AM DEAD AND CONFIRMED TOWN.
Tar is not playing the game.
But he most definitely is.
How intriguing.
this closely mirrored my attacks on tapping in previous games. this was on purpose.
i came out confident ts was scum and explained why. i did not have that much actual confidence at the start (i do now).
in the past, town ts reacted with anger, condescension (not really relevant tbh, as its his default), omgus, and fervor to refute every single point
now theres no way to be sure if town ts would react the same way here. it is, at its base, a very emotional reaction. i cant really know if i would strike the same chords and bring out his righteous indignation.
but what i was sure of is that scum ts would pretend to react this way. and i think thats what happened.
he was angry, but not emotional. he voted me, but i dont really think he believes im scum. he tried to refute some points, but just didnt have that fervor. and then just sort of stopped trying. this is not town ts.
and FTR, i dont actually think he was trying to rolefish. at least not consciously.
i think hes a little angry he got scumread for the wrong reasons.
@nacho what makes you think proph was shot? did they shoot him in midair?
i think ghosting approaches things very differently than me. i get a strong sense of "other" when reading his posts and i dont think its about alignment.
@imab something ive been wondering. it could be important.
how do you feel about your game in the classic? do you plan to do more lying as town?
@mod(s) : still waiting on results of investigation
where you at?
(also, small bit more of setup speculation: rules infractions are likely a red-herring, don't think Tar would punish a crowd unfamiliar with the infractions system too heavily).
Noting the whole "ending the day by post 1000" part, just so other people do. This means that, when we approach post 1000, we should have the lynch we want pretty solidly decided on and that we shouldn't waste posts if we can help it. 1,000 posts should be more than enough to get done what we need to get done.
I'm naturally sort of suspicious of this claim: there's no reason to claim it at all (it doesn't bring information to the town, it doesn't affect how people should claim). Tom pointed out that he thought it was a town tell because it was an example of Hans putting himself into the spotlight, but I disagree with that premise (I don't think there is a valid avenue for anyone to attack or suspect him because he skipped a day, and Hans would recognize that) and also think that most players with that ability would tell the truth about it regardless of alignment.
The reason why I move from being null to naturally suspicious is because Tar's roles usually aren't completely useless; occasionally they can seem harmless on the outside and occasionally they can be a red herring, but they usually aren't flat useless. I have a small suspicion that Hans could be powering up an anti-town role, but it's not a strong reason to suspect, just means I'll be looking for the significance of it being Day 2.
Let's say that as scum, you have the ability to sprinkle every player with fairy dust and have the mod confirm it. Fairy dust has no effect on the game whatsoever. As scum, is there a reason not to use it? It there a reason not to tell the truth about using it?
Me too.
I love when people call me town
I can pardon someone and have their alignment revealed, or I can pardon someone and give them the ability to choose the lynch instead.
From what I understand of Necarg, his scum meta is considerably more nervous than his town meta, and he's much less likely to do things for the **** of it as scum than he is as town. The first time I played with him as scum, he ended up posting reads lists a little too much, didn't joke around much, was extraordinarily quiet. I ended up winning a scumgame where he lived to the end and this matched up perfectly. When I played with him in Vanillaville, I told him not to acknowledge a post and he put it in his signature, he was much more erratic, engaged, less nervous. If he's scum, he's playing miles and miles ahead of any of his completed scumgames on the basis of tone alone.
Why would claiming a completely useless action draw significant attention to him?
I don't think he's lying; you're correct that it would be completely stupid for him to lie about a confirmable action at the beginning of the game.
I don't think that TS is rolefishing Hans by asking why he did what he did.
Hans claimed a solid piece of information; elaborating someone why they did what they claim to have done is pretty standard fare for a mafia game IMO.
On a similar note, I don't either misrep from DoT or Tom was purposeful. Your question could be interpreted fairly easily since a majority of answers to it would require parts of Hans's role as an answer (aka "I ended the day because I can only use abilities on Even Nights, I ended the day because I had to, etc") although I recognize that most likely wasn't your intention.
I liked this post from GJ because it had a little of the bite his posts lacked in Classic - while it's entirely possible that he's modified his scum play based on the case I had him in Classic, I don't find it extraordinarily likely (if that was the case, I'd explain it to be overblown/anger at me "taking over the town" instead of a warning").
I agree that Tom believing that Hans is pretty easy to read is sort of nonsense, but I think it's a case of inflated sense of ability as opposed to any sort of truly ill intention. I think that his reason for believing Hans is town isn't really terrible (it's a sentiment shown by other people even though I disagree that it's terrible), and I think he tends to exaggerate reads pretty strongly in general.
My alternative to the L-4 plan (I think it might bring too many claims too quickly) is simply to be conservative with voting and for the town to verbally agree on a lynch before we get one; this means we likely won't run into a lynch threshhold problem and claims can result with wagons that are truly wagons with intent to lynch. I'd suggest we FoS our lynches before actually pushing them through, but deadline problems and FoSes could also do things.
This tell is a bit oddball, I know, but I liked the last sentence in this post. I think Bur, as scum, has trouble posting (his scum performances from what I've seen have been fairly lurky), so the fact he is more engaged than he thinks realizes is a good sign. I don't think he as scum is creative enough to fake something like this and I'm not sure who would be a savvy enough coach to encourage him to do so.
I really liked the bolded here. Scum love when townies align with their thoughts because it means they have more influence in the town; townies occasionally get paranoid of it, especially if they see themselves as town leaders early. I also like the strong push fighting the Tapping is scum tide because yes, I agree that the votes suck (and while I have a leaning town read on TS, I'm being a bit more cautious around it because I've playing with Tapping-town a bunch of times and don't want to get lazy).
Actually, for a stronger confirmation of my target, I'd like to lynch a player that I have a decent townread on. I have reasons to fear a Godfather can mess with my ability (will get into this later when I research scum roles in Mind Screw Games), but understand the need for me to confirm my ability relatively quickly and end the day with a confirmed alignment and no one dead.
Here you go!
I have two rebuttals to the assertion that TS is attacking the players and not the play and thus he is scum:
First, I don't think that attacking players instead of the play is alignment indicative. I find it bad form, sure, but there is not a strong correlation between bad form and scum (if there was, town would win far more often).
Secondly, I don't think that TS was attacking Tom personally: that aggression is TS's playstyle and would very likely be present regardless of alignment (I haven't played with him as scum yet, but I doubt TS as scum will turn into a kitten), and his "you are having trouble keeping the lies straight" seems like a fair followup considering he accused tom of misrepresenting him and then tom's followup to that attack wasn't satisfactory.
Your second assertion that a lack of town motivation doesn't mean Hans is scum and TS should recognize that is flawed: I find a lack of town motivation suspicious myself and disagree with your reasons for finding Hans town (and I've already outlined why; let me know if you need me to dig them up for you since I have a feeling this post is gonna be a doozy).
Your third assertion is that TS "angrily and lazily" responded to Tom's assertion of how he was reading TappingStones, and I disagree with that as well. Tom's argument is that he's reading him better than his past two failures: I don't think the rebuttal to that needed to be more than a scoff and "no, you're not", especially since I've had to force myself to read their posts and not skim because the TS-Tom dance is a little too familiar to me at this point.
All in all, I think that you're heavily biased against TS because you don't like the way he's approaching the game. I would strongly consider you to skim some of his completed games to see that this attitude is consistent throughout all of it, or try to take it out of your case against him. I think the other part that biases you against TS is your own views on Hans: do you think my position is unreasonable? Do you think GJ's position is unreasonable?
@Leuko:
I would argue that you have the opposite problem that Necarg does (in that you are pushing against Tom because you can't see why he would find TS scummy). I would point you to Tom pushing and overreacting to TS's play in two other games to show that it's not particularly indicative of his alignment in this one. Do you think Tom is scum for reasons outside of his push on TS?
I liked this post from Hans - Tom is a strong defender, TS is a strong attacker. Taking the position that they are both town is the position I find the least likely for Hans to take because it sort of alienates himself from both parties (Tom sees him reading TS as town which has the possibility to shake up that townread a bit, he's not backing up TS against Tom and so there's no real chance of changing TS's read); however, this read isn't very significant because it's heavily skewed by the fact that I'm reading both Tom and TS as town: I don't think scum-Hans passes up on the chance to add fuel to this particular fire.
It's hard for me to believe that a player like you is simply lost, has no stance significant draw in the TS/Tom discussions. What impressed me the most about you in Vanillaville was your drive and your constant conviction in a player being scum/town; you brought an incredibly energy to the game, and here I'm supposed to believe you just don't have it?
Am officially skimming Tom/TS. Sorry guys
I'm referring to TS in particular. If you're looking for people attacking TS for being confrontational and overreacting, look no farther than OB's attacks here.
Not really.
Several people had already expressed a town read on me by that point, so if he wanted to ride popular sentiment, he could have just called me town.
It also seems a fairly reasonable position to hold considering neither of us had much content at that point yet both of us had made significant move WRT roles.
I've posted my reasoning in this post; feel free to let me know if you want me to dig it up for you.
I've read/skimmed the posts I haven't directly responded to, losing steam so am expediting the process so I can do other things within the next 10 minutes.
The heart behind this vote is being underwhelmed, which is mainly a meta read (sorry). The main thing that stands out to me in his play as town is how hard he pushes reads and how he manages to make reads and jump into the fray of things and how unafraid he is to do so: in every game I've seen him in, he has possessed and pushed strong reads early and so his statement of being "lost" rings pretty hollow to me.
I didn't like his initial pushes on Jobie/Proph for voting non-players. It is the easiest thing you can attack early game (because it's weird and not normal), and his push lacked any sort of oomph behind it at all (he let Jobie off the hook because "voting for an NPC sort of had a reason", and then voted Proph when he pointed out he voted for Tar). His stances on Tom and TS (TS's emotion is genuine, Tom is typical Tom) are very surface-level and don't feel like an effort to engage in the game in any way whatsoever; if I was trying to characterize his entire ISO in a word, it would be "empty" and that's not how town ISOs look.
FoS: Azrael
I am not really focused on flavor: when I use the phrase "shot", I mean to say "killed" but I'm expecting what killed him was a dayvig because that's usually the role that kills people during the day (and this dayvig is very very likely a SK, thus we have an SK who is familiar with and afraid of Proph and also an ass).
I don't agree with your characterization with TS's play, although I haven't read his recent play all that closely. I don't think TS as scum would have a problem responding to your early push as scum: I think he would be able to refute your arguments against them because they was dumb and would be legitimately angry about being suspected for unreasonable reasons and would have that anger regardless of his alignment. I don't believe there's a significant difference between being "caught for the wrong reasons" and "being suspected for the wrong reasons": some people have deviating reactions to these two things based on who they are as people and how they feel about their scum/town games, but I think that being able to tell why someone is angry is an advanced emotional tell and requires pretty strong familiarity with a player.
maybe we're both right.
his conspicuously not receiving a warning is odd. he also edited a post and "liked" a couple posts. but that role seems like it could be either alignment.
unvote:
and yes, im openly being overconfident this game. i will be presenting all of my opinions as facts.
its kinda fun.
i find it more likely something screwy is going on with proph than an SK.
maybe to do with summoning iso?
a suicide?
like, maybe he was pushed. but we would have noticed someone carrying him up to a high point.
and while i disagree, i see where youre at with tapping. and it makes sense.
I don’t know the game Mao. But I am looking forward to you not having to talk in riddles…
What changed your mind on Jobie?
Thanks Tom. Did what he said do anything for you?
How could Tom possibly know that? Everything he was saying pointed to the fact that he DID NOT know that.
If you are talking to Nati say hello for me!
It is so real it hurts
Please prove to me what you are asserting. Do you have a game in particular in mind?
I agree with your assessment totally. TS is very likely town. I see your point about “rolefishing” but if you want to go down the “it’s subjective” road, than everything in this whole game of Mafia can be viewed that way. Scumreads, rolefishing, misreps, etc etc etc. All can be subjective.
I am super sad you are dead, because I would have loved to know what the Summon: Iso was about.
Raw emotion or “implosion” would be a great way to get some unfiltered interaction from someone. Why would you feel the need to stop just short of getting so really raw data?
Hello Scum! Welcome to the game… So, what exactly about Dota screams scum to you? Or if you weren’t calling him scum, and he’s just “off,” What exactly is off? If it isn’t clear, I think you are manufacturing bologna to look busy…
Wow! The scum decided to come into the thread at the same time. Neat…
This is gross for many of the reasons that have already been stated. Your point about TS having the burden of finding the town motivation himself is a good one, though.
Thank you for pointing that out to TS. I was going to do that myself, but you beat me to it.
What is making you feel okay about Ghost?
Hmmm. Not feeling your response here either Leuko. This again feels like some hardcore fishing, combined with trying to strongarm/guilt trip Hans into giving up the info. Scum points for you!
Wholeheartedly agree that this is WAYYYY too early to be going 1 vs 1. Especilaly because I believe it to simply be a town vs town squabble.
Anything wrong with the pre-planned defense aside from you don’t agree? If it makes you feel better I don’t believe it was scum motivated and more or less came out of TS’ dislike of Tom.
Sweet, I have a bunch of questions, but I am going to refrain and see where this takes us instead. No need for more info to be dumped until you feel ready.
I agree yet again Nacho. The argument gets played out all the time nowadays.
@Everyone
I will go out a limb and say that both Tom and TS are unequivocally townie… together. There is no need to choose between either one. They are both town. Period.
Nacho is more than likely town as well. Lean town in my eyes.
Hans is definitely townie as well. So are you for that matter Hawk.
And I would agree here, except I think Rob is shaking off some rust, and is only on the null to lean scum side for me right now.
Hi Bur! You have been asking your questions, has anything fruitful come out of your labors? Also, here I am! You have not posed me any questions. What would you like me to confirm or deny for you? What is the tell you are looking for?
P.S. I am getting town Bur vibes from you, but I have been wrong the last few times we played together. Although we had each other pegged in Vanillaville.
What is this investigate you speak of? Why has no one else commented on that?
You are scaring me Jobie. I know you have been really busy lately but I need something from you before I scream for your head on a platter. Will you do a venn diagram for me?
So you got your FoS on there, but are they basically your lean scum reads or full fledged scum? Just trying to figure out where your head’s at.
I like this TS. In terms of meta though, Bur does this as both alignments. We need a little more time before we can go full bore on him, but one of the big tell-tale signs for Bur is if the questions lead nowhere and aren’t followed up on. Good catch though.
You clearly know what FoS is if you say in the next sentence “how many fingers.” I get your question, as I asked it a different way above, but this makes you look like a liar.
PbPA is something that is generally posted in thread with the quotes to back up what you are saying, but just because TS did it long hand doesn’t mean it holds no value. If you want to check it open another tab and compare them by flipping back and forth.
I was wondering the same thing. Who is this we? Is it Nati? Why do I feel it is Nati?
Okay so basically to sum all that up...
Hans, Tom, TS, Imab, Nacho, Hawk, Kj, Bur all seem pretty darn townie to me. No particular order, but Bur is on the lower end of the spectrum.
Anak, GJ, D_V, Rob Roy are Null. Jobie is null but closer to scum lean until I get some more from him.
I am not liking Leuko, Ghosting, Necarg, or Dota. Ghosting and Necarg are my top two scumspects.
Vote: Necarg
Darth Melvin very well could be super lurking scum... But nothing to go on at this point...
I think I hit everybody.
And
FoS: Ghosting
i know what FoS stands for, just not what it does. i understand it has a functionality in some games, though ive never seen it.
btw my "investigate:" had no game functionality. that i know of.
what do you think of nacho's point re: necarg?
oh, and what TS said was meh. its really about how he said it.
i understand why people are townreading him. i actually think hes doing a great job in his first scum game.
but i got him way early and im not gonna let him forget it in future games.
FOS:TOMSLOGER
FOS:BUR
Not sure if this does anything but let's have a try.
Meta fail.
I did have good reasons for voting Jobie and Proph. However it turned out that NPC's are in this game. Apparently so are Taredas and Azrael in some fashion.
As for the TS/Tom discussion I think you should re-read my assessments there. That read on TS is not surface level. As for tom, yeah it's very much a "gives 0 ****s" read but if you recall I was fine with just faking a guilty on him because I had such a strong read. And I'll give myself full credit for helping to lynch someone who was "not town". Trust me, when I think I've got something solid I'll be sure to let people know.
As for my Iso being "empty" I think that's a mischaracterization. Even when I stated why I felt lost there was reasons for doing so unless you would like to elaborate on why those reasons felt faked. Compare how easy it was to catch EtR, Sir Chris, and to a lesser extent GentleMan Johnny in Classic. This makes me believe that the scum are just better players which is why I said I'm paranoid of you and 7Hawk. Speaking of you...
I wanna go back to that TS townread though...
This read on Tappingstones is hardly "surface level" and it goes into detail about exactly why T/S is angry AND differentiates between town/scum frustrations.
You're better than this Nacho...
Unvote: No Lynch
Vote: Nachomamma8
Oh yeah. And you never did answer if you can governor yourself from last game...
Yo peeps. Free pizza and wings at my house! This is an impressive catch and we all gotta celebrate!
people in this game dont blindly follow blustery confidence apparently
I'm with tom on this one. Jumping from "I don't think you've summarized me correctly" to "you are misrepresenting scum" needs more support than this. Otherwise it just looks like OMGUS.
IMAB: Could you remind me why you voted Jobie and Proph if my initial interpretation was a misrep of your read?
I also still think that your TS read was surface level: there were a lot of words, yes, but the reasoning just quite wasn't there and I'll try to expand on that during my lunch.
I what? Pretty sure that I said what he did was a townie action, and sure I put hans in my town pile at the time for it. But to say that I town cleared him instantly is taking that a bit far, I in no way think he is confirmed. Also, he wasn't countered by anyone, which is certainly some evidence towards what he says no?
Agreed with others on IMAB above. Nacho votes you IMAB, he even admits that its not a very strong vote, and you sort of explain/counter that. But proceeding to vote him back like that is just so weak, what part of what Nacho did was scummy? Sure, he voted you, but why does that make him scum? You say that he had a below surface level read, but why is scum!Nacho more likely to do that than town!Nacho?
Outdated Mafia Stats
Scum vote players outside of the game so that they can avoid contributing game content while also falsely appearing relaxed or playful. That's why the "tell" exists: because it's classic busywork masquerading as a contribution.
However since both NPC's and Taredas/Azrael are in this game in some fashion, voting for them is actually game relevant. Thus negating the "tell". You expect me to keep voting someone when it turns out that the reason for the vote was false? You've mistaken zeal with blind tunneling. Nacho, you're better than that.
@whomever...
OMGUS is a core strategy of my gameplay.
I omgus'd Zionite in Animal mafia and he was scum.
I omgus'd KamikazeArchon in Avante Garde and he was scum.
I OMGUS'd Askthepizzaguy, and Vezokpiraka off OMGUS and then POE'd Koolkoal off their flips.
So yes it's literally OMGUS. Who gives a crap? OMGUS=OH MY GOD U SUK and Nacho's reasoning sucks.
That being said, your push on me has the drive that you've been lacking recently, so I'm not really interested in the push on you.
To the OMGUS accusations, I don't think it's a bad play: IMAB as town expects me to read him right, and so when I fail to do that, he pushes back.
@Anak: The point that I'm trying to bring forward here is that the only use for a power that does nothing (but everyone knows it's been used) is that it's a confirmed power. As scum, you use powers like these simply because there is no other play: I don't believe that there are very many mafia players so afraid of playing scum that they don't use a power because they have to claim they used a power and think it's an insult to Hans as a player to suggest he would be too afraid of drawing such a tiny amount of attention.
@Hawk: Those rules are core rules based on Tar's last 5 Mind Screws: I took out the game specific rules in Mind Screw V and that's what was left.
In other news,
Unvote, Vote: Ghosting
I'd love to make this vote more substantial but probably won't until I get into a computer; when I look at the playlist, that name stands out but I don't really remember why.
Unvote
P.S. Proph kill sucked. Want to look into that.
I am here to say I will make a real post a little later but ther- !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nacho, "@Proph, go read Mind Screw 2 again". He should be able to extrapolate what I mean by that(wrt to the more likely theory about Proph).
The GJ way path to no lynching:
#38 is Tom declaring Hans town for reasons that would later be mimicked by Anak/others? I don't think this read was unreasonable.
#40 is Tom talking about his Hans read.
#48 is Tom saying that he likes where Bur's head is at; I can see this being a weird observation due to a lack of stances in Bur's post other than the Nacho!town read, which was not a read Tom expressed.
#60 is an extrapolation of the Hans townread.
#73 is telling Hans not to claim anymore, not sure how that's calling someone town directly or through compliments.
#88 is Tom talking ***** about his TS scum read.
#125 is Tom telling Hunt good job on the early catchup.
I don't see how these posts, as a whole, show Tom calling everyone town. He's called Hans town several times, sure, but I don't see why it has to be buddying over having a very strong town read. I don't understand why #88 is so scummy when TS (a strong town read) has made statements of a similar nature if my memory isn't failing me, and I don't really like the mention of having a bunch of notes without sharing: if you have thoughts on the game that you think is beneficial, why wouldn't you just share them? Why would instead you brag about an alert everyone to their presence and then do nothing with them?
I'd also be interested in you expanding on the leukovirus read: my guess is you're reading leuko as town because leuko is a member of the Team TappingStones camp, but I wouldn't mind being pleasantly surprised if there was another reason for it.
I think this post also suffers the problem of being a surface read: Ghosting seems to just be tossing his hat in the TappingStones corner without backing it up too much (his TS read in particular ignored all of the arguments surrounding him and instead goes "he's townie"), and all of his reads seem to be centered around who is in the TS camp and who is in the Tom camp (Tom is scum, person who voted TS is scum, DoT is scum for following Tom. TS is town, leuko, who called TS town, is also town), which seems like a pretty easy position for scum to take - he's saying things he believes TS and TS supporters would like and trying to encourage the Tom-Tapping fight.
This is Ghosting's first significant followup on Tom, and the followup is weak. In a nutshell, the post is:
1) I said that you called people town in 5 posts.
2) How much mafia have you played?
3) Isn't publicly confirmed alignment + no lynch bad? I don't know if I'm right!
4) You're 80% certain TS is scum. Why are you pushing for a lynch too quickly?
None of this seems like legitimate inquiry or a legitimate push determining Tom's alignment.
The rest of his ISO is peppered with questions like this which don't really seem to be asking anything or pushing anything, would be interested in his followup to my attack of his case on Tom and would like him to expand on his Town reads in particular. Also would love to hear TS's opinion on this specifically because I'm feeling a lot better about this vote right about now.
Summon: Iso
if nacho dies now, im officially worried.
@mod has darth melvin been poked?
do you only answer some questions?
does it matter who asks them?
GJ, i think i remember you referring to one of your "friends on the other side" with she/her pronouns. and its had me thinking since.
are you receiving information from one or more of the NPCs?
I'm not expecting a response, but hey it's worth a shot.
Hm. Good answer.
My main problem with it was that I felt it was a bit overly (and potentially unnaturally) aggressive. I think Rob said something along those lines as well. However, I've just noticed the quote in your sig from Nacho, which implies that maybe that's just a constant thing. Which in turn makes your tone null.
I'm active when I can be. I like to talk to I dislike not being active if I can help it anyway. We should get along fine.
Prophy's flavor is a girl who kills herself, then continues communicating after she dies. Prophy is dead, therefore it's not totally out of left field that Prophy might still be active in the game somehow, although probably not in the thread. Just a thought I had. Probably won't affect us any.
Why are you voting Hawk? Because he claimed without caring?
Also, do you believe his claim, given that that rule he claimed was one that was used in a previous iteration of this game?
Cool.
So, theory: Az is not playing like his normal self. He's not scumhunting, but he's not being intentionally deceptive, I don't think as well. IIRC he can't be voted.
Az was a reviewer. He knows the setup. He does not know who has what role however. My thought is maybe he's some sort of special role that needs to find the person who has a role (or a person who has a flavor name perhaps) to win. Either way, he's not playing the same game we are, and therefore I won't be spending anymore time trying to figure him out. He's unlikely to be antitown. I think.
Ok.
I can't really see any scum motives for doing what he did. The only motive I see here is "Why the hell not?" because he would have had no other info. (Unless he's scum and one of his buddies has an ability that benefits from it. But currently we have no such info, so if one flips we can revisit this.)
I still don't consider what he did "ending the day" because he didn't. He just set the Day to a higher number and skipped a night phase.
Has he now? I'll need to look into that. I mean, at most he might be controlling the NPCs or something. He likely doesn't have a wincon or anything, therefore likely isn't scum, and therefore isn't worth our time debating at this time.
Wait, 300 posts in you're still null on most people? Is that usual for you?
You know... the more you post the less I trust you. Maybe it was the Overly Helpful vibe you were giving off with all the Rules posting.
What are you expecting this to do?
Otherness? What is otherness?
tell me more about nacho.
Question for all. Why was Proph killed over anyone else? Nacho has claimed some pretty strong abilities, as an example, why do people think he was killed?
I actually really like this post by Ghosting but I'm Iso'ing him today and will hopefully have a better idea about him afterwards.
@Nacho- Do you not thing Necarg is worthy to apply pressure to? He seems worse than Ghosting right now. Ghosting's posts seem interactive enough that we'll gain insights as flips happen. Necarg on the otherhand is barely posting and his only significant action was barning Tom hard against me and presenting a really pathetic attack on me.
I anticipate DOTA will back off of me slowly as is already evidenced by his unvote.
What's wrong guys? You thought the wagon was going to be easy, didn't you?
My main concern is that I feel completely lost as far as set-up is concerned and I just don't have the time to go read these other Mind Screw games. Can someone give me the main gist on what might happen in this game, with NPCs, etc?
He's scum.
I just got off a closing bar shift and am doing the same thing starting 1pm tomorrow, but I will definitely be responding to some things tomorrow morning or Sunday as that's my off day.
I definitely enjoyed your look into me, Nacho, although a few of your sentences seem constructed in a way that over or under exaggerate parts for the benefit of your interrogation. A lot of simplifications as well, in instances like who I'm calling town, or that I haven't listed reasons for TappingS (I listed three as far as I remember). There's more examples of this, and maybe that's your play style? Obviously, people are going to attempt to be more persuasive when they're trying to convince people of something, but the extent to which your language is manipulated appears excessive. Does that make sense? Others are free to look at it and decide for themselves, I'll point it out specifically when I'm on my computer.
Also, perhaps we have different play styles, not all of my comments and interactions need be "significant follow ups", as you labeled, especially so early on. There's a lot that can be gained from simple conversation.
As I've said before, I always prefer more discussion over less or no discussion, so I welcome all players to join in on this and am open to any and all questions. I'll make sure to respond to yours when I'm back on my computer, Nacho, sorry I couldn't get to it tonight. About to pass out right now as much as I wish my day didn't go wake up -> work -> sleep and then tomorrow wake up -> work -> sleep.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Additionally, provided my explanations expanded beyond simply that, it wouldn't be a poor excuse to include it as a supporting factor either side if I believe TS is a town player. If I believe a player is town, I am much more inclined to believe a player attacking them, and then players trying to get in on that, are also worthy of suspicion.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
@Nacho: Just curious, have you had any instances where you called me scummy/were suspicious of me before I posted my town/scum list?
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
What scum meta does Tom have? I have only seen neutral Tom in Classic.
Not information, merely a check to my inner balance. I doubt "NPC" is an accurate title for this individual.
We have a theory. It is possible as long as Tare is alive, a person will be killed at random for failure to engage in a lynch. I am unsure if this is accurate or not, and still working on theory.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
The GJ way path to no lynching:
i am unconvinced either way about nacho, though ive got a solid inkling imab is scumreading him in earnest. maybe theyre buddies, but probably not.
i dont think i reregistered a vote after reset, so
vote: ghosting
FoS: tapping
prod request: necarg, melvin
if none of those 4 people is scum, i will eat yogurt (i hate yogurt)