Tom town firmed hans without good reasoning. I asked for a better explanation and crap was given.
There is one thing that he said that makes me wonder if I'm wrong about him but I'll let him respond to TS before I elaborate. I think if I add more pressure to him he might implode regardless of alignment which would be bad.
@Proph
What do you think of GJ's no lynch suggestion/opener?
Just started reading the game this morning before school and urge everyone to reread all of Tom's posts. If that's too much to ask, check out these ones: #38, #40, #48, #60, #73, #88, and #125. He calls almost everyone town (either directly or through compliments or otherwise obvious buddying), especially Hans, ignores questions, and post #88 alone feels sooo obviously scummy. My notes on his posts don't include a single positive town trait, and I'm possibly willing to share these notes at a later point (as in my insights into every single post so far, I've also been keeping track of player interactions and some other things).
Vote: tomsloger.
I currently have a strong town read on TappingStones and leukovirus, their motivations and how they're acting seem very townlike overall, pretty much in line with how I have been reading/feeling so far. 7hawk77 seems off because of his vote on TappingStones so quickly after tom and a couple other things, DoTArchon seems off for post #85 and some other things. At school right now so reading and posting from my phone for the most part.
EBWODP: Just now seeing posts #151 and #152, maybe I'm confusing 7hawk77 with someone else? Probably shouldn't be reading Mafia so early in the morning lol.
OK, now I'm sure TS is scum. This defensive rage is much more faked and lazy than his other furies.
"Already getting hard to remember all the lies, isn't it Tom?" - Already starting off with the oldest trick in the book: Nonsensically attacking the person, not his actions.
"Nice try avoiding the question. I said to share with us this easy town read/tell you have on Hans." - Again, but this one is even less founded. He's just ignoring the actual answer here: It doesn't ******* matter. TS is just trying to find something to be angry at, and Hans and Tom were the first things he saw. The TS I know doesn't get half as bent out of shape over stuff like this.
"This is laughable. What information did he share with us Tom? That he ended the day. The obvious question would first be "Why did Hans end the day? What is the town motivation? You still have failed to provide any town motivation." - This is my main gripe. This is lazy, a terrible play, and gives more ground to the scum in every way. @TS: YOUR job is to find town motivation. Telling someone else to do it for you is stupid, lazy, and unreasonable. Hans is town because Scum would never A) Use the ability like that, and B) Claim it because that would draw attention to them to that they could screw up. You are being lazy and nonsensically angry.
"Now you are trying to spin this away from you, perhaps trying to lead DOTA to jump in on your defense? Otherwise what is the reason for this statement? Certainly no town motivation here." - WTF. TS just casually ignores Tom's entire statement and says it has no town motivation, when it is calling him out on his laziness and nonsense. I don't see town motivation in just reading what you want to see and making assumptions accordingly.
"I've played with you in 3+ games now. In ALL games you have gone after me hard from the very beginning(first 1-2 days as scum). In all games I was town." - My second main gripe. He ignores all the attacks made in a paragraph of posting and said, "The last time you had me as scum, I was town." This time it's founded because he's being lazy and unreasonable. The chances of you hitting town four times in a row isn't easy.
I don't have time for anything else right now until Afternoon.
My thoughts are with the friends and family of the Orlando Shooting victims and with the rest of the LGBTQA+ community.
Check out my Newborder Peasant Cube here! http://www.cubetutor.com/draft/37467
Necarg, please don't acknowledge this in any way whatsoever.
True Name Mafia (Win),Clan Contest IX Mafia (Win), Bravely Default Mafia (Loss), BOTAS (loss), BfV (Loss), Ace Attourney (loss)
Rules Advisor before they were eradicated
@Necarg What are your feelings on Toms after reading all the interactions between him and TS?
I have no idea whats going on this game, and I love it. Currently, reading the game over to make a larger post and get more caught up with yesterdays transgressions.
Anddd my notes just got deleted, so going to have to start again or just start them from now. Started to write notes in physics and forgot to make a new document.
OK, now I'm sure TS is scum. This defensive rage is much more faked and lazy than his other furies.
"Already getting hard to remember all the lies, isn't it Tom?" - Already starting off with the oldest trick in the book: Nonsensically attacking the person, not his actions.
"Nice try avoiding the question. I said to share with us this easy town read/tell you have on Hans." - Again, but this one is even less founded. He's just ignoring the actual answer here: It doesn't ******* matter. TS is just trying to find something to be angry at, and Hans and Tom were the first things he saw. The TS I know doesn't get half as bent out of shape over stuff like this.
"This is laughable. What information did he share with us Tom? That he ended the day. The obvious question would first be "Why did Hans end the day? What is the town motivation? You still have failed to provide any town motivation." - This is my main gripe. This is lazy, a terrible play, and gives more ground to the scum in every way. @TS: YOUR job is to find town motivation. Telling someone else to do it for you is stupid, lazy, and unreasonable. Hans is town because Scum would never A) Use the ability like that, and B) Claim it because that would draw attention to them to that they could screw up. You are being lazy and nonsensically angry.
"Now you are trying to spin this away from you, perhaps trying to lead DOTA to jump in on your defense? Otherwise what is the reason for this statement? Certainly no town motivation here." - WTF. TS just casually ignores Tom's entire statement and says it has no town motivation, when it is calling him out on his laziness and nonsense. I don't see town motivation in just reading what you want to see and making assumptions accordingly.
"I've played with you in 3+ games now. In ALL games you have gone after me hard from the very beginning(first 1-2 days as scum). In all games I was town." - My second main gripe. He ignores all the attacks made in a paragraph of posting and said, "The last time you had me as scum, I was town." This time it's founded because he's being lazy and unreasonable. The chances of you hitting town four times in a row isn't easy.
I don't have time for anything else right now until Afternoon.
@Necarg-you are coming across completely insincere. Im not "raging" at all. Being frustrated with having to deal with Tom's misreps every game grows tiresome.
Now on to you, where do you get off telling me that it is my job to find Hans town motivation? It is not in any way my job.
I asked very reasonable and direct questions about his town motivations. His answer was "day ones sucks". Does that work for you? Because it doesnt work for me and you will NOT scare me off this path.
Anddd my notes just got deleted, so going to have to start again or just start them from now. Started to write notes in physics and forgot to make a new document.
@ghosting-Any ideas on this setup? Im not familiar with you, have you played in one of the mind screw games previously?
@ghosting-Any ideas on this setup? Im not familiar with you, have you played in one of the mind screw games previously?
I've barely played beyond basics, I think I played in maybe 2 non-basics a couple of years back, but I definitely haven't played in any of the Mind Screw games before. Are they meant to be crazier than others? I understand it's more complex than most games, but your question implies the complexity is more than what I am assuming.
@TS: I guess someone needs to point to you that just because something doesn't have town motivation behind it, it doesn't equate with that there's scum motivation behind it. (For example, most of Seppel's crazy plays have no town motivation behind them, but at the same time, there's no scum motivation behind them either.)
If you want people to believe you, try telling us why Hansa is scum instead.
Necarg's #155 just feels yucky.
I feel okay about Ghostling.
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okay my laptop is freezing due to an unfortunate league of legends accident, so ill be posting from my phone, sorry for no quotes.
@ necarg about #155
i really dont think tapping asking hans his motivation/why its town is lazy play...and saying that tapping getting town four times in a row is unlikely seems kind of irrelevent? id kind of like a stronger case against tapping than just "youre really mad. but fake mad." but i dont think there is a case there.
idk, im just really not seeing whats scummy about tapping right now, im townreading him fairly strongly the more frustrated he gets, and kinda scumreading the people pushing him the more they do so, considering that theres been quite a few logical posts about it and nobody is backing down.
that being said, right now my vote will be vote: tomsloger
because the more convinced he acts that tapping is scum over a simple question, the more i feel like hes scum trying to get a mislynch.
@hans sorry if youve already answered this and i didnt see, but how do you feel about this big reaction to tapping's question. what are your reads on tom and tapping right now.
@tapping abt hans' answer "day 1 sucks"
i can accept this bc i would pull shenanigans to get away with skipping part of a game i dont like. so i guess i dont necessarily scumread him for his answer.
@hawk about claiming
do you have some reason for that you feel like sharing
@TS: I guess someone needs to point to you that just because something doesn't have town motivation behind it, it doesn't equate with that there's scum motivation behind it. (For example, most of Seppel's crazy plays have no town motivation behind them, but at the same time, there's no scum motivation behind them either.)
If you want people to believe you, try telling us why Hansa is scum instead.
Necarg's #155 just feels yucky.
I feel okay about Ghostling.
@BUR I asked others what Hans town motivation could be. I didnt say he was scum.
@tapping abt hans' answer "day 1 sucks"
i can accept this bc i would pull shenanigans to get away with skipping part of a game i dont like. so i guess i dont necessarily scumread him for his answer.
@hawk about claiming
do you have some reason for that you feel like sharing
Someone trying to answer my questions! Sweet. LEUK is this so called day two any different? As far as Im concerned this is still day one.
Also kudos to those who noticed Necarg using the Monte Carlo fallacy.
Not sure yet. Hence why Im asking him about motivation. The set up might be screwy enough that he has good reason to do sth weird but I cant just assume this.
Someone trying to answer my questions! Sweet. LEUK is this so called day two any different? As far as Im concerned this is still day one.
honestly, i cant see any difference between this day 2, and a normal day 1. so i was thinking my only guess as to why hans ended day 1 is that it has to do with day 1 or night 1 abilities or something that i just dont know about. not knowing things makes me suspicious of people. i may not be scumreading him, but i cant get comfortable with this doubt i have about his alignment or motives because of it.
if he was town, knowing that he should end the day and skip the night because of some danger hes aware of that we arent, id like us to also be aware of it. and the fact that he didnt share is whats making me uneasy.
if hes worried about making himself a target, why not just skip the night again until he can get someone protecting him.
if its just a one shot, and he cant do that, then why use it day one in the first place.
i just made a lot of assumptions and guesses about why/how his ability works. i wouldnt have to make those assumptions/guesses if i had more information.
sorry for repeating myself so much, but hans is suspicious until i have a more solid reasoning on his behalf for that action.
Not sure yet. Hence why Im asking him about motivation. The set up might be screwy enough that he has good reason to do sth weird but I cant just assume this.
@Bur-Where does Tom currently stand?
Now you are not sure about Hansa? I'm pretty sure that your posts #61 and #83 seem to imply something else. What made you change your opinion?
I'm feeling okay-ish about Tom. If I ignore the slapfight between you and Tom, he is actually making some sense.
@Bur-One more thing. Why do I feel like you are trying to look busy?
What are your reads on the player list? Gun to your head who do you vote for and why?
My current reads:
Feeling good:
Hansa - for drawing attention to himself for no reason
Nacho - for being a Governor and claiming it outright at the beginning of game. I doubt scum Nacho would do this.
Need to figure out:
TS - I'm trying to make a sense of your posts, since pieces don't fall in their places when I read your posts (read what I said above).
Necarg - His posts are fluff except for #155, which feels yucky.
Leukovirus - I see words, words, words and more words, but I want to see more though process from her.
@KJ: I noticed you asked to be reminded (#35) to revisit Necarg's ability to edit his posts. This is that reminder.
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Someone trying to answer my questions! Sweet. LEUK is this so called day two any different? As far as Im concerned this is still day one.
honestly, i cant see any difference between this day 2, and a normal day 1. so i was thinking my only guess as to why hans ended day 1 is that it has to do with day 1 or night 1 abilities or something that i just dont know about. not knowing things makes me suspicious of people. i may not be scumreading him, but i cant get comfortable with this doubt i have about his alignment or motives because of it.
if he was town, knowing that he should end the day and skip the night because of some danger hes aware of that we arent, id like us to also be aware of it. and the fact that he didnt share is whats making me uneasy.
if hes worried about making himself a target, why not just skip the night again until he can get someone protecting him.
if its just a one shot, and he cant do that, then why use it day one in the first place.
i just made a lot of assumptions and guesses about why/how his ability works. i wouldnt have to make those assumptions/guesses if i had more information.
sorry for repeating myself so much, but hans is suspicious until i have a more solid reasoning on his behalf for that action.
Explain the underlined and bolded part for me.
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Leukovirus - I see words, words, words and more words, but I want to see more though process from her.
maybe i am guilty of saying things without being obvious about where my thoughts are. and im wordy. sorry. ill try to be clearer with what im thinking.
for future reference, use he/him/his/himself and such when you refer to me.
if hes worried about making himself a target, why not just skip the night again until he can get someone protecting him.
if its just a one shot, and he cant do that, then why use it day one in the first place.
i just made a lot of assumptions and guesses about why/how his ability works. i wouldnt have to make those assumptions/guesses if i had more information.
sorry for repeating myself so much, but hans is suspicious until i have a more solid reasoning on his behalf for that action.
Explain the underlined and bolded part for me.
that was me supposing about why hans chose not to give us a deeper reason than he did. i thought, well maybe hes worried if hes too open about his role, he'll get shot or something. if i were him, i would either not reveal enough to get targeted by the mafia, or not reveal it until i knew if there was a town doc or someone to keep me from getting killed after i did reveal.
that being said i dont exactly know why scum would kill a guy for being able to end days, but i can see why skipping nights would annoy them pretty fast
if hes worried about making himself a target, why not just skip the night again until he can get someone protecting him.
if its just a one shot, and he cant do that, then why use it day one in the first place.
i usually clarify things step by step, but i forgot to do one part in my last post, i was just typing what i was thinking.
"if hes worried about making himself a target"
me supposing.
"why not just skip the night again until he can get someone protecting him."
me speculating about what he could do instead of withhold information thats making people suspicious of him.
If I said I'm considering claiming and leaning towards it, do you think I would do so without a valid reason?
I don't understand the point of the question you asked me. If I share my reasoning for wanting to claim, I can't really do that without claiming because it won't make sense.
I know some information that might be useful. If I tell no one, it helps one town. If I tell everyone then it helps town and scum.
Given that the information doesn't seem super useful I'm leaning towards just saying it.
Also about NPCs. Didn't porcelain mafia have them?
Pretty sure the best way to play it is try and lynch scummy behavior. I wanna say one of the NPCS was scum and we thought it was a waste of a lynch so we lost, but I think a previous scum player that died got to replace one of the npcs.
If I said I'm considering claiming and leaning towards it, do you think I would do so without a valid reason?
ive never played with you before, and ive run into people claiming just for claiming's sake, so i had no idea until you answered whether you were one of those people or not.
@GJ -
In a majority of cases, "me holding the town hostage" is "me revealing the alignment of the lynched player publicly" which doesn't actually seem to be an absolutely terrible thing. The only way where I'll make a lynched player king is if the lynch is absolutely atrocious, and I'll be particularly vocal in denouncing it, so you probably don't have anything to worry about! :]
To answer your question, the alignment reveal would be public.
Nacho, I need you to do something. I believe you and hope we can be friends this game. Unfortunately, there is this voice I consider quite reliable that is telling me your role is a scum role. Tell me Nacho, why would she tell me such a thing?
Let's be honest with each other, shall we?
If you want a very honest, brutal truth, I have no idea who she is or why she would say anything like that.
From the way you're talking about her, she honestly probably believes what she's saying but she unfortunately has no idea what she's talking about.
Bur/Necarg are both very likely town.
Tar/Azrael most likely have lyncher/lynchee roles; want to do research into old Mind Screws to see if there's any merit to resolving that dichotomy now.
With [REDACTED] players alive, it is now [REDACTED] votes to lynch.
To the best of my knowledge, RR's vote against DV doesn't count. Unfortunately, I cannot comment any further on that. Ever. Cause reasons. Mostly being that I have a gag order from Mr. T. that's about 300 pages long.
Also, don't send me your night actions. That would be a bad thing. Hilarious, but bad.
With [REDACTED] players alive, it is now [REDACTED] votes to lynch.
To the best of my knowledge, RR's vote against DV doesn't count. Unfortunately, I cannot comment any further on that. Ever. Cause reasons. Mostly being that I have a gag order from Mr. T. that's about 300 pages long.
Also, don't send me your night actions. That would be a bad thing. Hilarious, but bad.
i genuinely can't think of a better Day 1 outcome then finding someone with a lot of interactions, lynching them, having nacho reveal their alignment, and going to the next Day with information about that person and nacho.
we're still too early to actually do this, but it looks like me or tapping will be the best choice for information purposes. theres not a lot of situations that lead to us not being near the top in post count.
now if yall want it to be me, cool. lets make scum choose between killing townfirmed me or governor nacho. i think i'll be pretty useful to have around, but so will nacho if hes town. (i want to believe he is, but im not ready to pronounce that yet)
but the better choice is tapping. it worries me that hes so adamantly against an outcome in which his alignment gets revealed. and it should worry you too.
ill be back to actually respond to tapping's attempted response to me in a little bit. ive got some ***** to do IRL and then elsewhere on this site. and also we really need other interactions in this game besides tom vs tapping.
i will say real quick (even though im pretty sure i already said it) that hans motivation doesnt have to be any more complicated than "hey guys. heres some information"
seeing scum motivation for sharing information is a warped way to see the game
I've never played with so-called NPCs, anyone with experience with how those roles might work?
I remember there were a couple in Inheritance Mafia - there was a random kindergarten class around - but I can't remember how they were relevant. I'll take a look if I have time.
I thought hans was lying about being the cause of starting on day 2 because this game is screwy and I thought he was being cute and trying to take credit and lie for no reason.
Whether he did or didnt, tom and anak both said that was towny? I could only see this as null andd the spred of towning hans seems off.
I'd like a better explanation from both tom and anak now.
Why did you believe hans would like about something mechanical like that?
To be clear you are refusing to tell us why you are claiming credit for ending day one?
VOTE:HANSANATOR
I read over the later discussion, and would like to weigh in that this really does read like role-fishing to me. You are asking for someone to elaborate on the rationale behind their ability usage.
well we can agree on that. nacho confirming himself and revealing the alignment of whoever we choose is the right way to end the day.
I disagree. If we have a consensus lynch choice, then we agree that that person is likely scum. Pardoning scum would just mean that that we have to kill them the next day - it's a wasted lynch, and we give that scum an extra day for dastardly deeds.
It would also mean that Nacho would only be mechanically confirming himself, and not give us good information about himself. If he is allowing others to choose when he uses his ability, then we don't learn nearly as much about him as if we let him use it at a time of his choice. If Nacho is scum, then we don't want to let him hide behind the will of the town. If he's townie, then by definition he's going to make a decision that is more intended to help the town than a decision of the general public. Either way, we want to watch him make that choice himself.
Just started reading the game this morning before school and urge everyone to reread all of Tom's posts. If that's too much to ask, check out these ones: #38, #40, #48, #60, #73, #88, and #125. He calls almost everyone town (either directly or through compliments or otherwise obvious buddying), especially Hans, ignores questions, and post #88 alone feels sooo obviously scummy. My notes on his posts don't include a single positive town trait, and I'm possibly willing to share these notes at a later point (as in my insights into every single post so far, I've also been keeping track of player interactions and some other things).
Vote: tomsloger.
I currently have a strong town read on TappingStones and leukovirus, their motivations and how they're acting seem very townlike overall, pretty much in line with how I have been reading/feeling so far. 7hawk77 seems off because of his vote on TappingStones so quickly after tom and a couple other things, DoTArchon seems off for post #85 and some other things. At school right now so reading and posting from my phone for the most part.
Strangely, I got almost exactly the opposite reads from the tomsloger-Tapping argument - I thought that toms looked rather townie, while Tapping seemed to be overreacting. I barely have a read on leukovirus, despite all of his posts. I do agree about 7hawk77 - his post 55 (referenced above) seems opportunistic.
Other notes. I dislike the tone of D_V's posts, but am assuming there is a mechanical reason for them. I also like iamabusinessman for his defence of Tapping, even if I am not swayed by it.
@Hans-Feel free to chime in anytime you like. What is the town motivation to claim there? I've asked this question so many times and no one can seem to provide any reasonable town motivation for Hans to claim there as town.
@hans sorry if youve already answered this and i didnt see, but how do you feel about this big reaction to tapping's question. what are your reads on tom and tapping right now.
My gut says it's a town/town argument based on how both thinks he is right (i.e. Tom genuinely thinks I'm town and TS genuinely thinks that it's scummy that I'm withholding information), but I could be wrong about either one. I'm sorta skeptical of Tom dogmatically townreading me for no legitimate reason, which would imply he's scum and already knows I'm town, but then I don't think he would have the guts to openly tell Nacho to govern him like he did a couple times already. So I think they're both town atm. I suppose TS could be scum hoping to push through a mislynch, but he's been way too whiney for this to be the case, imo.
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Do you guys think D_V's post restriction is similar to Juliet? I guess it's not really important, but that's what comes to mind when I read his posts.
Also, that No Lynch guy is probably scum and you all should vote him.
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It tends to be though, at least in my meager experience. Town players tend to react rationally and explain what they were doing, where scum will overreact more and try to use emotion to sway people their way.
I forgot how daunting larger games can be, so many lines to analyze. Its like getting smashed in the mouth, with confusion.
but the better choice is tapping. it worries me that hes so adamantly against an outcome in which his alignment gets revealed. and it should worry you too.
Considering a game like this, is it not at all possible that he may have a role that doesn't want its alignment revealed? Sure, it could be scum, but then why fight so vehemently against it? Do you not think it possible that he wants it to be hidden for a different reason? I don't have any information about what his role could be, but I think its dangerous to assume in this game that only scum want their role hidden.
The part that strikes me about Tom vs. TS is that each are convinced that the other are scum. So much of what they say comes across to me as them trying to justify their scum read of the other, instead of taking the actions of each other and determining alignment from there. Sure, one could be scum, but its not a guarantee, and if you take what they say they make it sound like it is. I'm having a hard time picking scum out of the two. TS is getting a bit emotional, but that could be frustration. Tom's posts are coming across as forced to me, but that could be his conviction in believing TS as scum.
@RR Which part in particular set the scales as TS is scum for you? A specific overreaction that would come from scum?
[quote from="TappingStones »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/670841-mind-screw-salvation-mafia-day-2-wait-what?comment=149"]
Also, that No Lynch guy is probably scum and you all should vote him.
An interesting thought, considering you are voting No Lynch right now. Why is GJ scum for voting No Lynch, and not you? Also, if that's the case, I think your post is missing something.
[quote from="TappingStones »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/670841-mind-screw-salvation-mafia-day-2-wait-what?comment=149"]
Also, that No Lynch guy is probably scum and you all should vote him.
An interesting thought, considering you are voting No Lynch right now. Why is GJ scum for voting No Lynch, and not you? Also, if that's the case, I think your post is missing something.
Its a vote. For GJ.
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@Hans-Feel free to chime in anytime you like. What is the town motivation to claim there? I've asked this question so many times and no one can seem to provide any reasonable town motivation for Hans to claim there as town.
@hans sorry if youve already answered this and i didnt see, but how do you feel about this big reaction to tapping's question. what are your reads on tom and tapping right now.
My gut says it's a town/town argument based on how both thinks he is right (i.e. Tom genuinely thinks I'm town and TS genuinely thinks that it's scummy that I'm withholding information), but I could be wrong about either one. I'm sorta skeptical of Tom dogmatically townreading me for no legitimate reason, which would imply he's scum and already knows I'm town, but then I don't think he would have the guts to openly tell Nacho to govern him like he did a couple times already. So I think they're both town atm. I suppose TS could be scum hoping to push through a mislynch, but he's been way too whiney for this to be the case, imo.
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Do you guys think D_V's post restriction is similar to Juliet? I guess it's not really important, but that's what comes to mind when I read his posts.
Also, that No Lynch guy is probably scum and you all should vote him.
Not sure what you and Tom are talking about. I never said I want to hide my alignment. The fact that you are taking Tom's words at face value and running with them seems like a scum slip here. Please post where I said that I want to keep my alignment hidden.
@Hans-Feel free to chime in anytime you like. What is the town motivation to claim there? I've asked this question so many times and no one can seem to provide any reasonable town motivation for Hans to claim there as town.
@hans sorry if youve already answered this and i didnt see, but how do you feel about this big reaction to tapping's question. what are your reads on tom and tapping right now.
My gut says it's a town/town argument based on how both thinks he is right (i.e. Tom genuinely thinks I'm town and TS genuinely thinks that it's scummy that I'm withholding information), but I could be wrong about either one. I'm sorta skeptical of Tom dogmatically townreading me for no legitimate reason, which would imply he's scum and already knows I'm town, but then I don't think he would have the guts to openly tell Nacho to govern him like he did a couple times already. So I think they're both town atm. I suppose TS could be scum hoping to push through a mislynch, but he's been way too whiney for this to be the case, imo.
----
Do you guys think D_V's post restriction is similar to Juliet? I guess it's not really important, but that's what comes to mind when I read his posts.
Also, that No Lynch guy is probably scum and you all should vote him.
Not sure what you and Tom are talking about. I never said I want to hide my alignment. The fact that you are taking Tom's words at face value and running with them seems like a scum slip here. Please post where I said that I want to keep my alignment hidden.
wat.
I don't even know what you are talking about? I didn't say anything about you wanting to hide your alignment. And which of Tom's words am I taking at face value? Nothing in this post even makes sense.
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"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
Tom town firmed hans without good reasoning. I asked for a better explanation and crap was given.
There is one thing that he said that makes me wonder if I'm wrong about him but I'll let him respond to TS before I elaborate. I think if I add more pressure to him he might implode regardless of alignment which would be bad.
@Proph
What do you think of GJ's no lynch suggestion/opener?
Outdated Mafia Stats
Outdated Mafia Stats
Vote: tomsloger.
I currently have a strong town read on TappingStones and leukovirus, their motivations and how they're acting seem very townlike overall, pretty much in line with how I have been reading/feeling so far. 7hawk77 seems off because of his vote on TappingStones so quickly after tom and a couple other things, DoTArchon seems off for post #85 and some other things. At school right now so reading and posting from my phone for the most part.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
"Already getting hard to remember all the lies, isn't it Tom?" - Already starting off with the oldest trick in the book: Nonsensically attacking the person, not his actions.
"Nice try avoiding the question. I said to share with us this easy town read/tell you have on Hans." - Again, but this one is even less founded. He's just ignoring the actual answer here: It doesn't ******* matter. TS is just trying to find something to be angry at, and Hans and Tom were the first things he saw. The TS I know doesn't get half as bent out of shape over stuff like this.
"This is laughable. What information did he share with us Tom? That he ended the day. The obvious question would first be "Why did Hans end the day? What is the town motivation? You still have failed to provide any town motivation." - This is my main gripe. This is lazy, a terrible play, and gives more ground to the scum in every way. @TS: YOUR job is to find town motivation. Telling someone else to do it for you is stupid, lazy, and unreasonable. Hans is town because Scum would never A) Use the ability like that, and B) Claim it because that would draw attention to them to that they could screw up. You are being lazy and nonsensically angry.
"Now you are trying to spin this away from you, perhaps trying to lead DOTA to jump in on your defense? Otherwise what is the reason for this statement? Certainly no town motivation here." - WTF. TS just casually ignores Tom's entire statement and says it has no town motivation, when it is calling him out on his laziness and nonsense. I don't see town motivation in just reading what you want to see and making assumptions accordingly.
"I've played with you in 3+ games now. In ALL games you have gone after me hard from the very beginning(first 1-2 days as scum). In all games I was town." - My second main gripe. He ignores all the attacks made in a paragraph of posting and said, "The last time you had me as scum, I was town." This time it's founded because he's being lazy and unreasonable. The chances of you hitting town four times in a row isn't easy.
I don't have time for anything else right now until Afternoon.
Saying "Get back together, come back and see me"
Check out my Newborder Peasant Cube here! http://www.cubetutor.com/draft/37467
True Name Mafia (Win),Clan Contest IX Mafia (Win), Bravely Default Mafia (Loss), BOTAS (loss), BfV (Loss), Ace Attourney (loss)
Rules Advisor before they were eradicated
I have no idea whats going on this game, and I love it. Currently, reading the game over to make a larger post and get more caught up with yesterdays transgressions.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
@Necarg-you are coming across completely insincere. Im not "raging" at all. Being frustrated with having to deal with Tom's misreps every game grows tiresome.
Now on to you, where do you get off telling me that it is my job to find Hans town motivation? It is not in any way my job.
I asked very reasonable and direct questions about his town motivations. His answer was "day ones sucks". Does that work for you? Because it doesnt work for me and you will NOT scare me off this path.
Tom is off this game.
Anyone else wanna step out on the ledge?
Im right here waiting...
@ghosting-Any ideas on this setup? Im not familiar with you, have you played in one of the mind screw games previously?
I've barely played beyond basics, I think I played in maybe 2 non-basics a couple of years back, but I definitely haven't played in any of the Mind Screw games before. Are they meant to be crazier than others? I understand it's more complex than most games, but your question implies the complexity is more than what I am assuming.
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
Please don't do this before it is further discussed. Is that okay with you?
Mafia Stats 2016-2017:
Town: 1-0 | Scum: 2-0 | Neutral: 1-1
If you want people to believe you, try telling us why Hansa is scum instead.
Necarg's #155 just feels yucky.
I feel okay about Ghostling.
@ necarg about #155
i really dont think tapping asking hans his motivation/why its town is lazy play...and saying that tapping getting town four times in a row is unlikely seems kind of irrelevent? id kind of like a stronger case against tapping than just "youre really mad. but fake mad." but i dont think there is a case there.
idk, im just really not seeing whats scummy about tapping right now, im townreading him fairly strongly the more frustrated he gets, and kinda scumreading the people pushing him the more they do so, considering that theres been quite a few logical posts about it and nobody is backing down.
that being said, right now my vote will be
vote: tomsloger
because the more convinced he acts that tapping is scum over a simple question, the more i feel like hes scum trying to get a mislynch.
@hans sorry if youve already answered this and i didnt see, but how do you feel about this big reaction to tapping's question. what are your reads on tom and tapping right now.
@tapping abt hans' answer "day 1 sucks"
i can accept this bc i would pull shenanigans to get away with skipping part of a game i dont like. so i guess i dont necessarily scumread him for his answer.
@hawk about claiming
do you have some reason for that you feel like sharing
@BUR I asked others what Hans town motivation could be. I didnt say he was scum.
Someone trying to answer my questions! Sweet. LEUK is this so called day two any different? As far as Im concerned this is still day one.
Also kudos to those who noticed Necarg using the Monte Carlo fallacy.
Not sure yet. Hence why Im asking him about motivation. The set up might be screwy enough that he has good reason to do sth weird but I cant just assume this.
@Bur-Where does Tom currently stand?
What are your reads on the player list? Gun to your head who do you vote for and why?
honestly, i cant see any difference between this day 2, and a normal day 1. so i was thinking my only guess as to why hans ended day 1 is that it has to do with day 1 or night 1 abilities or something that i just dont know about. not knowing things makes me suspicious of people. i may not be scumreading him, but i cant get comfortable with this doubt i have about his alignment or motives because of it.
if he was town, knowing that he should end the day and skip the night because of some danger hes aware of that we arent, id like us to also be aware of it. and the fact that he didnt share is whats making me uneasy.
if hes worried about making himself a target, why not just skip the night again until he can get someone protecting him.
if its just a one shot, and he cant do that, then why use it day one in the first place.
i just made a lot of assumptions and guesses about why/how his ability works. i wouldnt have to make those assumptions/guesses if i had more information.
sorry for repeating myself so much, but hans is suspicious until i have a more solid reasoning on his behalf for that action.
Now you are not sure about Hansa? I'm pretty sure that your posts #61 and #83 seem to imply something else. What made you change your opinion?
I'm feeling okay-ish about Tom. If I ignore the slapfight between you and Tom, he is actually making some sense.
My current reads:
Feeling good:
Hansa - for drawing attention to himself for no reason
Nacho - for being a Governor and claiming it outright at the beginning of game. I doubt scum Nacho would do this.
Need to figure out:
TS - I'm trying to make a sense of your posts, since pieces don't fall in their places when I read your posts (read what I said above).
Necarg - His posts are fluff except for #155, which feels yucky.
Leukovirus - I see words, words, words and more words, but I want to see more though process from her.
@KJ: I noticed you asked to be reminded (#35) to revisit Necarg's ability to edit his posts. This is that reminder.
Explain the underlined and bolded part for me.
maybe i am guilty of saying things without being obvious about where my thoughts are. and im wordy. sorry. ill try to be clearer with what im thinking.
for future reference, use he/him/his/himself and such when you refer to me.
that was me supposing about why hans chose not to give us a deeper reason than he did. i thought, well maybe hes worried if hes too open about his role, he'll get shot or something. if i were him, i would either not reveal enough to get targeted by the mafia, or not reveal it until i knew if there was a town doc or someone to keep me from getting killed after i did reveal.
that being said i dont exactly know why scum would kill a guy for being able to end days, but i can see why skipping nights would annoy them pretty fast
i usually clarify things step by step, but i forgot to do one part in my last post, i was just typing what i was thinking.
"if hes worried about making himself a target"
me supposing.
"why not just skip the night again until he can get someone protecting him."
me speculating about what he could do instead of withhold information thats making people suspicious of him.
anything else unclear?
If I said I'm considering claiming and leaning towards it, do you think I would do so without a valid reason?
I don't understand the point of the question you asked me. If I share my reasoning for wanting to claim, I can't really do that without claiming because it won't make sense.
I know some information that might be useful. If I tell no one, it helps one town. If I tell everyone then it helps town and scum.
Given that the information doesn't seem super useful I'm leaning towards just saying it.
Outdated Mafia Stats
Pretty sure the best way to play it is try and lynch scummy behavior. I wanna say one of the NPCS was scum and we thought it was a waste of a lynch so we lost, but I think a previous scum player that died got to replace one of the npcs.
It's been a while and if have to look it up.
Outdated Mafia Stats
ive never played with you before, and ive run into people claiming just for claiming's sake, so i had no idea until you answered whether you were one of those people or not.
you answered my question.
"i have info and want to claim" was all i actually wanted from you.
Surprises? Me?
*ambushes thread with a stealth vote-count*
No surprises here.
Mmmmm.
One of those would be nice.
If you would be so inclined.
4 tomsloger- 7hawk77, tappingstones, ghosting, leukovirus
3 tappingstones - tomsloger, dotarchon, necarg
2 No Lynch- Gentleman Johnny, hansanator
Rod Serling- Jobie
killjoy-bur
prophylaxis- iamabusinessman
Not Voting (7) - Anaklusmos, Darth Melvin, Huntzilla, Killjoy, Nachomamma8, Prophylaxis, RobRoy
With [REDACTED] players alive, it is now [REDACTED] votes to lynch.
LMK when you spot the inevitable errors.
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
In a majority of cases, "me holding the town hostage" is "me revealing the alignment of the lynched player publicly" which doesn't actually seem to be an absolutely terrible thing. The only way where I'll make a lynched player king is if the lynch is absolutely atrocious, and I'll be particularly vocal in denouncing it, so you probably don't have anything to worry about! :]
To answer your question, the alignment reveal would be public.
If you want a very honest, brutal truth, I have no idea who she is or why she would say anything like that.
From the way you're talking about her, she honestly probably believes what she's saying but she unfortunately has no idea what she's talking about.
Bur/Necarg are both very likely town.
Tar/Azrael most likely have lyncher/lynchee roles; want to do research into old Mind Screws to see if there's any merit to resolving that dichotomy now.
first one ive found so far, robroy should be on d_v
4 tomsloger- 7hawk77, tappingstones, ghosting, leukovirus
3 tappingstones - tomsloger, dotarchon, necarg
2 No Lynch- Gentleman Johnny, hansanator
Taredas - Prophylaxis,
Rod Serling- Jobie
killjoy-bur
prophylaxis- iamabusinessman
Not Voting (6) - Anaklusmos, Darth Melvin, Huntzilla, Killjoy, Nachomamma8, RobRoy
With [REDACTED] players alive, it is now [REDACTED] votes to lynch.
To the best of my knowledge, RR's vote against DV doesn't count. Unfortunately, I cannot comment any further on that. Ever. Cause reasons. Mostly being that I have a gag order from Mr. T. that's about 300 pages long.
Also, don't send me your night actions. That would be a bad thing. Hilarious, but bad.
At least, for the time being...
Vote: Darth Melvin
My vote is like the points in Whose Line.
Unvote Vote Iso
Also one feels inclined to ask.
Did my vote upon the majestic Azreal not count?
we're still too early to actually do this, but it looks like me or tapping will be the best choice for information purposes. theres not a lot of situations that lead to us not being near the top in post count.
now if yall want it to be me, cool. lets make scum choose between killing townfirmed me or governor nacho. i think i'll be pretty useful to have around, but so will nacho if hes town. (i want to believe he is, but im not ready to pronounce that yet)
but the better choice is tapping. it worries me that hes so adamantly against an outcome in which his alignment gets revealed. and it should worry you too.
ill be back to actually respond to tapping's attempted response to me in a little bit. ive got some ***** to do IRL and then elsewhere on this site. and also we really need other interactions in this game besides tom vs tapping.
i will say real quick (even though im pretty sure i already said it) that hans motivation doesnt have to be any more complicated than "hey guys. heres some information"
seeing scum motivation for sharing information is a warped way to see the game
Do think more attention needs to be paid to Az/Tar.
It won't.
I remember there were a couple in Inheritance Mafia - there was a random kindergarten class around - but I can't remember how they were relevant. I'll take a look if I have time.
Why did you believe hans would like about something mechanical like that?
I read over the later discussion, and would like to weigh in that this really does read like role-fishing to me. You are asking for someone to elaborate on the rationale behind their ability usage.
I disagree. If we have a consensus lynch choice, then we agree that that person is likely scum. Pardoning scum would just mean that that we have to kill them the next day - it's a wasted lynch, and we give that scum an extra day for dastardly deeds.
It would also mean that Nacho would only be mechanically confirming himself, and not give us good information about himself. If he is allowing others to choose when he uses his ability, then we don't learn nearly as much about him as if we let him use it at a time of his choice. If Nacho is scum, then we don't want to let him hide behind the will of the town. If he's townie, then by definition he's going to make a decision that is more intended to help the town than a decision of the general public. Either way, we want to watch him make that choice himself.
Strangely, I got almost exactly the opposite reads from the tomsloger-Tapping argument - I thought that toms looked rather townie, while Tapping seemed to be overreacting. I barely have a read on leukovirus, despite all of his posts. I do agree about 7hawk77 - his post 55 (referenced above) seems opportunistic.
Other notes. I dislike the tone of D_V's posts, but am assuming there is a mechanical reason for them. I also like iamabusinessman for his defence of Tapping, even if I am not swayed by it.
unvote, vote: TappingStones.
lol no
My gut says it's a town/town argument based on how both thinks he is right (i.e. Tom genuinely thinks I'm town and TS genuinely thinks that it's scummy that I'm withholding information), but I could be wrong about either one. I'm sorta skeptical of Tom dogmatically townreading me for no legitimate reason, which would imply he's scum and already knows I'm town, but then I don't think he would have the guts to openly tell Nacho to govern him like he did a couple times already. So I think they're both town atm. I suppose TS could be scum hoping to push through a mislynch, but he's been way too whiney for this to be the case, imo.
----
Do you guys think D_V's post restriction is similar to Juliet? I guess it's not really important, but that's what comes to mind when I read his posts.
Also, that No Lynch guy is probably scum and you all should vote him.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
I forgot how daunting larger games can be, so many lines to analyze. Its like getting smashed in the mouth, with confusion.
Considering a game like this, is it not at all possible that he may have a role that doesn't want its alignment revealed? Sure, it could be scum, but then why fight so vehemently against it? Do you not think it possible that he wants it to be hidden for a different reason? I don't have any information about what his role could be, but I think its dangerous to assume in this game that only scum want their role hidden.
The part that strikes me about Tom vs. TS is that each are convinced that the other are scum. So much of what they say comes across to me as them trying to justify their scum read of the other, instead of taking the actions of each other and determining alignment from there. Sure, one could be scum, but its not a guarantee, and if you take what they say they make it sound like it is. I'm having a hard time picking scum out of the two. TS is getting a bit emotional, but that could be frustration. Tom's posts are coming across as forced to me, but that could be his conviction in believing TS as scum.
@RR Which part in particular set the scales as TS is scum for you? A specific overreaction that would come from scum?
An interesting thought, considering you are voting No Lynch right now. Why is GJ scum for voting No Lynch, and not you? Also, if that's the case, I think your post is missing something.
Its a vote. For GJ.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
Not sure what you and Tom are talking about. I never said I want to hide my alignment. The fact that you are taking Tom's words at face value and running with them seems like a scum slip here. Please post where I said that I want to keep my alignment hidden.
I don't even know what you are talking about? I didn't say anything about you wanting to hide your alignment. And which of Tom's words am I taking at face value? Nothing in this post even makes sense.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%