I really, really don't think Tom is scum. Like..to the point that I'm willing to just take my chances at looking bad if he dies and actually flips scum. He has just looked town in all of the right spots to me.
Hawk COULD be scum, but I think it's too early to say. He seems self-aware that his constantly playing catch-up isn't going to cut it, and I want to see if he is going to actually participate, and I want to evaluate said participation when it happens. If it doesn't, I'd definitely be willing to press him further, but as it stands now, I don't feel like we need to, because it would basically just be a semi-lurker pressure.
I really just want to put the full court press on Iso. I'm not 100% sold on him being scum(some of his posts sound genuine), but he's certainly the strongest lead that I have. I wish that we would have heard more from Rhand before he had to leave for a week and a half, I never really felt like I got a satisfactory resolution there.
As it stands right now, I have quite a few strong town reads for so early in a game, which is..probably bad, because most likely I'm wrong somewhere, but I really can't see where at the moment. I've looked and looked, and everyone that I think is town seems to be exhibiting genuine town tells and/or actively scumhunting, pushing the town's agenda, etc. The people I'm least certain about in my pro-town list are definitely Vaimes and Nacho. Nacho was way too quick to give up on his Iso vote when Iso started biting back.
I really, really don't think Tom is scum. Like..to the point that I'm willing to just take my chances at looking bad if he dies and actually flips scum. He has just looked town in all of the right spots to me.
Hawk COULD be scum, but I think it's too early to say. He seems self-aware that his constantly playing catch-up isn't going to cut it, and I want to see if he is going to actually participate, and I want to evaluate said participation when it happens. If it doesn't, I'd definitely be willing to press him further, but as it stands now, I don't feel like we need to, because it would basically just be a semi-lurker pressure.
I really just want to put the full court press on Iso. I'm not 100% sold on him being scum(some of his posts sound genuine), but he's certainly the strongest lead that I have. I wish that we would have heard more from Rhand before he had to leave for a week and a half, I never really felt like I got a satisfactory resolution there.
As it stands right now, I have quite a few strong town reads for so early in a game, which is..probably bad, because most likely I'm wrong somewhere, but I really can't see where at the moment. I've looked and looked, and everyone that I think is town seems to be exhibiting genuine town tells and/or actively scumhunting, pushing the town's agenda, etc. The people I'm least certain about in my pro-town list are definitely Vaimes and Nacho. Nacho was way too quick to give up on his Iso vote when Iso started biting back.
I think I told you a few posts back to go after Iso and you rebuked me.
@ALL-How does everyone feel about Iso right now, besides Tom-your post count is starting to creep up again = (
I have Iso as scum but he seems pretty caught to me. You seemed totally against lynching him today and then Hawk started screaming, "Look, I'm scum! Come have a look why don't you!"
Wait, but didn't you unvote me before hawk's post that made you vote him?
I love how, early into the day, so many people were willing to pile/votes suspicion onto Rhand, but nothing has been able to stick since. That really should mean something. Sigh.
Yep, it means that the original Rhand push was garbage!
Mostly...I'm impatient, but also I find myself second guessing myself based on being very wrong in the last game I was in, shrug(I can't really say more because the game is still ongoing). Plus Iso knows how to push my buttons. And even though Tordeck comes across as scummy to me, not EVERY post he makes is scummy. Some of what he says sounds townie. Iso too.
I am fully willing to lynch either Tordeck or Iso, and am frustrated that suddenly no one else seems willing to lynch either one. To clarify, I'm not accusing you of waffling, sorry. I'm just trying to work out exactly where you stand. I like it when people are committed to their reads, because it gives them less wiggle room later. It was very unexpected to me when you unvoted Iso, especially because you quoted some random post with no explanation. And when Chris did as well. I'm extremely disappointed in that bit, though I think I get it now. We'll see soon enough.
But honestly, I wish people would just pile a bunch of votes on Iso and we would lynch him. I don't think there is much chance at all that he is town. It's possible of course, but seems really unlikely.
I push your buttons the way that I do because I'm trying to push you to play better and hunt harder. There's nothing wrong with doubting your reads, but when you let your conviction cripple you, it's no different from being paralyzed by doubt in outcome. Through the years, I've been trying to help you understand that, and I feel like we've made some headway, but you're stuck in trying to emulate your old playstyle, which is just heinously archaic for MTGS Mafia's meta in this day and age. I hope you understand that I don't do this to antagonize you, but rather, because I respect you as a player and recognize that you could still be a force to be reckoned with if you adapted to all the newfangled things the kids are doing these days. When I tell you that you're playing like garbage, it's not to discourage you - it's to get you to take a step back and make you think, "Wait - maybe I'm going about this the wrong way," when it's necessary, which I think will ultimately benefit you in the long term as a Mafia player. I don't know if you recognize that any of what I'm saying is valid or if you're just laughing because you think you don't need anyone's help to be a better player and "things should go back to the way they were, you damn kids need to get off my lawn" but yeah.
I know this is only tangentially related to a point I was making earlier, but with your quoted post above, I just wanted to make this clear to you.
I really, really don't think Tom is scum. Like..to the point that I'm willing to just take my chances at looking bad if he dies and actually flips scum. He has just looked town in all of the right spots to me.
Hawk COULD be scum, but I think it's too early to say. He seems self-aware that his constantly playing catch-up isn't going to cut it, and I want to see if he is going to actually participate, and I want to evaluate said participation when it happens. If it doesn't, I'd definitely be willing to press him further, but as it stands now, I don't feel like we need to, because it would basically just be a semi-lurker pressure.
I really just want to put the full court press on Iso. I'm not 100% sold on him being scum(some of his posts sound genuine), but he's certainly the strongest lead that I have. I wish that we would have heard more from Rhand before he had to leave for a week and a half, I never really felt like I got a satisfactory resolution there.
As it stands right now, I have quite a few strong town reads for so early in a game, which is..probably bad, because most likely I'm wrong somewhere, but I really can't see where at the moment. I've looked and looked, and everyone that I think is town seems to be exhibiting genuine town tells and/or actively scumhunting, pushing the town's agenda, etc. The people I'm least certain about in my pro-town list are definitely Vaimes and Nacho. Nacho was way too quick to give up on his Iso vote when Iso started biting back.
One-time offer, Cyan - I will claim here and now if you think it will help you understand where I've been coming from this game. If you don't accept this offer in your next response to me, then I won't be claiming until I hit L-2 with intent to lynch.
Work with me, here. We can solve this game, together.
TappingStones, I notice you haven't actually engaged me or asked me anything, choosing instead to simply state that I am scum. May I ask where your head is on this matter? If you want me lynched, shouldn't you be casing me, or at least talking to me?
@iso: Last piece, what would you have expected a scum tordeck in that same spot who similarly misread the flow to do?
scumTordeck would have been content to be useless in this situation. As I said, his scum play is fairly one-dimensional, if Predator is any indicator. In this situation, I suspect scumTordeck would have said "no guys, Cyan is totally scum" and let Cyan push my mislynch as well as a few others before saying "guess you should have listened to me about Cyan!" and gone in for the kill.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
First off I had 1 disclaimer that I was catching up and 2 catch up posts.
After that I've been pretty ******* involved.
Not a single person wanted to talk about what I thought about seppel?
Meanwhile tapoing stones has accused both iso and myself of being scum without asking wither of us relevant questions and than has the audacity to complain that no one wants to case me. What the hell is that.
Meanwhile pengo tries to dismiss everything I've said up into this point.
You had a lot of good questions on your 125 post. However you ended up pointing out a post and calling it bad. I prefer explanations even if it seems obvious why it's bad. Reason being is people call posts bad as a lazy and dismissive tactic (see pengo above)
Leaning town, I suppose. You aren't really one for adventures like the one we're having as scum, if prior experience is any indication.
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2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Iso I'll respond to you when I get a chance. I actually have a few questions for you because I feel like we had the same thought processes but our T/S reads are pretty different which bothers me.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Hey Iso I totally destroyed your so called argument against me you might want to read that and then apologize. I accept teddie bears.
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First off I had 1 disclaimer that I was catching up and 2 catch up posts.
After that I've been pretty ******* involved.
Not a single person wanted to talk about what I thought about seppel?
Meanwhile tapoing stones has accused both iso and myself of being scum without asking wither of us relevant questions and than has the audacity to complain that no one wants to case me. What the hell is that.
Meanwhile pengo tries to dismiss everything I've said up into this point.
I'm down for lynching either of these players.
Is this post some kind of bad joke? I asked you questions. You then accused me of a misrep, which is totally false What do you want us to say about Seppel? I beleive his claim. If you dont then have at it.
I wasnt reading through one by one iso. I went back and posted the unvote in your long reply message as an indication that you werent my strongest read anymore. Which should have been obvious the way I sniffed out Hawk's scum slip.
But we can also talk you too.
Why is Tom worth this much effort right now? Is he really that scummy? If he's scum can't we trick into some bad onteractions with potential scummates before you dismember him?
I feel like your tone resembles the last day of Amryln Seat right before I deposed you and reveled in victory with Tordeck and Rhand.
Hey Iso I totally destroyed your so called argument against me you might want to read that and then apologize. I accept teddie bears.
I mean, what exactly do you expect me to say in response to "no ur rong"?
Sure, I went after you in XKCD on Day 1. That was then. This is now. I understand you much better as a player. That isn't invalidated simply because I misread your intent in our first game together. (That was our first game, right?) Anyway, one of the great things about the process of time and mistakes is that you can learn through them. I'll admit that I'm not as good at being scum as I used to be. Interestingly, Proph and I went over my entire history as scum last night, and I realized that I carried my team in literally every single game but four or five of them. (STMUII, because I replaced in and got caught for an inconsistent read with what my previous stance was when I was killed as town - though I nearly set up my team for victory with an absurd gambit, it fell short; Starcraft, because that game was horribly imbalanced in the scum's favor, anyway, so they didn't need me to win, though I certainly contributed to our victory; Katawa Shoujo, because I got Vigged on Night 2 for doing dumb things; and Smalltown Animaniacs, because I got lynched on Day 1 for playing without emotion as a gimmick in an attempt to try something new, and the SK and town butchered the rest of my team; and Cyberpunk, where I contributed to our plan, but ultimately, DRey was the one who stayed alive long enough to get us close to victory. I'd include Vanillaville here, but I set up the groundwork for the Iso_II hydra to survive as long as they did based on my interactions, alone, and they ultimately only died because the other anti-town faction killed them.) Kinda makes me wonder how I'd do in a game as scum where I didn't have to pull all of the strings! Anyway, I digress - my biggest weakness as mafia is starting with a clunk, and staying motivated long enough to continue putting forth the effort my team needs to win. Being scum is exhausting to me because it's not as fun as being town - there's no game for me to solve, and when you're scum, it's super easy to pick up on behavioral nuances that might indicate someone is a power role, which makes your kill choices even easier. Being town is exhausting, but in a different way. See, I have a reputation to uphold. I get quality reads and reactions from people early on, and for a streak of about 2 years, I didn't get mislynched a single time. (Admittedly, I got Vigged on N1 twice, but I don't count that because one was from Crosstown, where literally half the playerbase came from a different meta, and the other was when I falsecrumbed being Bulletproof to Wheat, who told me he was going to shoot me when I was the Cop and he was the Vig, and didn't want to be John Kimble from Kindergarten Cop ("I'm a cop, you idiot!") so as to draw a Roleblock and make my ability useless anyway.) But anyway, my play in the game of Mafia largely has two phases: Autopilot and Paradigm Shift. When I autopilot, I react viscerally to things. I take them as they come and vomit my thoughts into the thread on the matter, and sometimes I do silly or dumb things to generate reactions from people, which almost always results in my ability to read them. When I Paradigm Shift (you witnessed this in XKCD), which usually occurs after I receive flak for being on Autopilot or pushing harder than the situation warrants, I go back and objectively review everything I've generated. This has led to me solving Mafia games on Day 1 more times than I can remember off-hand, and I've adopted this as my more regular playstyle as town (though I occasionally stray into something more unconventional) because for a good chunk of time, I was mostly removed from the game via Nightkill. Sometimes I Paradigm Shift too late, and it results in my mislynch, or in my results being discounted shortly after I eat a Nightkill. My problem with playing as a member of the team goes back to my childhood. I always had to do all the work in group projects in school (even up through college) because my peers were ******* idiots and lazy to boot, so taking on the burden of solving the entire game naturally comes to me as something that I have to do, because I don't expect anyone else to carry their own weight. (And no, I'm not saying you guys are morons. I respect a lot of you as great thinkers.) I can understand why that can put people off and leave a bad taste in people's mouths. But I also have an ego the size of Saturn when it comes to certain things, and Mafia is one of them. I believe I am one of our best analysts, and as such, I'm inclined to discount or disbelieve stances not analogous to my own unless I am given sufficient reason to do so. ("Sufficient" is something subjective to how strong a case I think I have on somebody.) Because of this, I have effectively turned Mafia for me from a team game into a 1-man circus show, which I understand doesn't always benefit me or my team. In recent months, I've been trying to be less of a bully and more coercive with regards to getting people to see my side when it comes to worldview on the gamestate, and I'm not always successful, but I'm definitely trying. As mentioned above, in the case of Cyan, this isn't to demoralize, but rather, to apply harsh reinforcement or "tough love" to someone I think could benefit from it. Because, again, it's a team game. I don't always play well with others, but I definitely don't harbor any OoG grudges due to in-game events if I can help it. It's just a game, after all! And sure, tempers can flare, and things can get heated, but in the end, we're just trying to express our passion for gaming, psychology, and sociology in the form of performing a group activity. I'm also a performer by nature, so I like to put on a good show when I can. I try to be entertaining, witty, and clever; though I recognize that sometimes, I can let my ferocity and viciousness when I feel I've successfully latched on to scum get the best of me, I hope that doesn't drown out the (hopefully mostly) delightful persona I've created for myself via Mafia.
Anyway, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I recognize where my shortcomings in Mafia lie, and I'm doing what I can to address them within my comfort zone without detrimentally affecting my in-game performance.
You're saying that my shortcomings with functioning as a member of the team detrimentally affect my play, and I don't necessarily disagree, but it's hard for me to accept that anyone will carry on my legacy postmortem in games, as the only time that ever seems to happen is when I'm wrong. So, in your opinion: As a member of the town, what can I do to maintain my consistency in read accuracy without drawing the ire of the rest of the town while simultaneously putting the burden of solving the entire game on myself? More civilized discourse might be a good step in that direction, but as you know, talking to walls can be quite frustrating. So, what's your suggestion?
(Also, you're still scum. Because, again, "no ur rong" an argument does not make.)
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Why is Tom worth this much effort right now? Is he really that scummy? If he's scum can't we trick into some bad onteractions with potential scummates before you dismember him?
To be frank, I think he's interacted with his buddies in such a way already that I think we can wrap the game up handily. Chris and Nacho have been throwing themselves at me, begging to be lynched, for example.
Quote from TappingStones »
I feel like your tone resembles the last day of Amryln Seat right before I deposed you and reveled in victory with Tordeck and Rhand.
My tone in Amyrlin was bitter and desperate because I knew I couldn't wiggle my way out of the situation and pull a victory for my team. My tone here has been somewhat bitter (though I've been trying not to let this game get to me as much as others have in the past) because I feel like nobody's listening to me and I'm getting flak after getting a really cool role in this game that really complements my playstyle and tendency for crazy gambits. Is that to what you are referring?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Yeah, because you couldn't possibly have a read on Sir Chris, Rhand, Vaimes, Voxxicus, NotVoxxicus, Tom himself, TappingStones, Hawk,
Or how about this. Yesterday you said that you decided to move your vote off of me because of 'some tell'. Which tell was that? Like seriously. Can you provide any kind of content whatsoever?
In order - lean scum, not enough content yet, ditto, ditto, lean town, town, lean town, not enough content yet.
You exhibited some of the signs of your play from an ongoing game. Was enough for me to believe this is your town game.
I forgot I had a major project due last night, so I worked on that instead of catching up. Once I'm home tonight, I'll catch up on the thread. It's really tedious to read a thread on my laptop at work.
Sorry about my absence.
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Alright I got slammed at work which blows. Just going to shoot from the hip/**** quoting and formating.
@Iso
So I felt like we had similar interpretations on things that unfolded earlier. That with claiming lightning rod which seems like some weird gambit that would only be made as town motive.
These things are town
However I completely disagree with your Tom and tapped stones read and I believe cyan is town and he seems pretty adamant in lynching you.
Anyways, I disagree with lynching you today because you have some kind of goal in mind with your claim and Ive seen similar claims work for the town in the past.
Tl;dr
You make me feel as conflicted as a closeted kid at an all boys church camp.
I can see why you'd disagree with my TS read, and I'm hoping he steps up to prove one of us right sooner rather than later. I don't think I'm wrong on tom, though, and I'm not budging on that one. I'm not sure why two reads we share, nor why Cyan wanting to lynch me generates conflict within your internal process, though. Just because you don't agree with my reasoning doesn't mean I'm scum, and I would daresay that perhaps our processes don't parallel as closely as we initially thought if we're coming to different conclusions.
I've made it no secret that my three biggest scum reads are tom, Chris, and Nacho. If I'm not mistaken, you shared at least one of those with me at one point. What changed?
Also, how would you say your town reads line up with my own that I gave in my big post (minus ts and TS, obviously)? Do you find any reasoning there to be particularly faulty?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I agree with you on seppel, cyan, Rhand I can't read, and i disagree with tapping and prowling.
I like your might be town because I feel fine about vaimes and tordeck. Citric is null for me.
Your no read is fine. However I do have a meta read on plow that I would put leaning slightly towards town. (He needs to post more.)
as far as might be scum, I disagree about notvox. I've liked his anaylsis so far and he seems to be thinking about the game on a fairly deep level.
then your scum list, I honestly can't read sir chris because I don't think I've ever seen him as town and he ruthlessly busses anyways so if he is scum, let him blow up the mafia team.
I'd be ok with policy lynching simple jack, I don't think he's scum but the fact that he's filling the thread with crap constantly is annoying. He honestly reminds me of the first game I played with Rodemy.
Next is your analysis:
I agree with your seppel and have my own reasons to confirm your theory.
Disagree with you on tapping so much. his #162 post seriously drove me crazy. Go take another read and please explain how a town makes that post. No serious, go now.
Your analysis of Cyan I think might be accurate. I'm not sure if he's right or wrong on his scum reads but He seems way to aggro for scum cyan. For example there are things that he's doing that I don't fully understand where scum cyan is always sqeaky clean.
Rhand - The way you talk about rhand is similar to how me and rhand are, except I've haven't really gotten closer to understanding him. I'm pretty sure I've played with him more than anyone else on the site and we still are on completely different wave lengths. At one point I even had him mentor me just so I knew I'd have a completely different fresh perspective to mafia than my own.
Prowling - I disagree again. I feel like the way he's interacting isn't providing anything meaningful. Also I have some personal scum tells that I use. For example I feel like scum are more often to use quote walls and open ended questions because it shows concretely them interacting with the game and the open ended questions makes them look like they are interrogating people.
The problem with this is the many of questions he asked in #59 don't really do anything, they just make people look bad without garnering any new information.
I think this might be how you view NotVox if i'm not mistaken.
Tordeck - I agree with your analysis here.
Vaimes - Agree, (don't have my own meta but he seems to be approaching the game in a good way)
Citric - Again, he's null for me but I do use verbage and tone as tells a lot so I can respect this.
Tetris - Your analysis is fine, player hasn't left any real impression which is generally scummy
NotVox - Disagree, I've already explained. I also use pairing to solve the game a lot so that which bothers you doesn't bother me at all.
Nachomamma - Disagree with you saying his opening is ok. I found his #75 to just be lazy scum where he thinks rhands opening was fine (Completely disagree, that **** was sketchy as hell) and barns cyan that you are scum. What an easy way to back up a very vocal person and if rhand or nacho is scum, I think this is definitely an aligned pair.
SirChris - Undecided. I usually use meta or personal scum tells day 1 and both aren't fitting him currently. I'm not sure if he's a good lynch today.
Tom - I have zero meta but I assumed he was pulling a rodemy and acting stupid on purpose to stir up ****. I agree with you that he has only said obvious things, fluff, crap or barned but bad does not equal scum. That being said it's annoying to find a needle in a haystack when simple jack keeps getting in the way.
ok cool. im back to thinking cyan is town. not as town as iso is, but town.
that said, it would be nice if both of you considered the possibility that your initial reads might not be correct. youre both great players or whatever, but that doesnt mean you dont have to change your positions as the game unfolds.
@tapping i cased hawk. just sayin.
@hawk dont be pissed, be townie. im waiting.
@cyan (and everyone else i guess) have you considered the possibility that the double voter has the ability to put his votes on two different players? possibly via private message. i dont particularly like you speculating in thread about who it is, but this theory makes it harder for hawk and company to kill them.
@chris come on man. i dont want to scumread you again. its exhausting.
defending yourself is not a good look on you. find some scum
@iso ok we already agree on nacho as scum (for different reasons, but lets not be nitpicky), and im basically down with all your solid town reads in 362. i even suspect seppel lied about his claim and is town.
but im having some trouble with your lean town list. and i dont even remember tetris. but overall we have a lot of common ground here.
youve already made the point for tordeck, and it gave me some things to think about. i think i have him as null now.
so id like to hear why hawk is town other than agreeing with you.
and, as always, im receptive to a case against chris.
#162 reads more like a drive-by post than anything - as in, TappingStones said, "Well, I don't have too much time to go into anything heavy, so I'll comment on what I feel is relevant and that should be sufficient." While I dislike the overall lack of analysis and critical thinking in the post, it doesn't necessarily have to be scum-motivated like you seem to think. It could come from lazy town, or it could come from inexperienced scum. I think that because it can come from either, and I'm townreading him, that it could reasonably be construed as making him look more town, but objectively, I'd have to refer to it as null.
I think that tying Rhand and Nacho together is a stretch. Can you go more into detail on NotVoxx? His stance on engaging the person you're trying to lynch is all kinds of wrong to me, but I can't tell if that means he's scum or just bad at being town.
Looking over your thoughts on my reads and reasoning, do you think you're just being paranoid and that I could reasonably come to the conclusions that I have as town, or do you still think I'm scum after piecing out my thought process next to your own? Do you think that where our reads and analyses hold discrepancy is something that can be chalked up as a difference in game approach/theory philosophy/etc.? Most importantly, do you think that if my stances are plausible as having come from townIso that these are also points of view that scumIso could emulate for the sake of appearing town?
A thought exercise: How would a player who approaches the game in the manner that you do catch a player such as Sir Chris if he were scum, short of an investigation or killing role targeting him?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Yep, it means that the original Rhand push was garbage!
You misunderstand me..somehow, even though the point I was trying to make was pretty clear. Nice of you to just belittle every case I ever try to make. Clearly pro-town behavior on your part.
Anyway. The point I was actually making is that people were willing to pile on Rhand, but have been unwilling to move much toward anyone else.
One-time offer, Cyan - I will claim here and now if you think it will help you understand where I've been coming from this game. If you don't accept this offer in your next response to me, then I won't be claiming until I hit L-2 with intent to lynch.
Work with me, here. We can solve this game, together.
Yeah I think you just want to claim because you think it will advance your own position, and are just pretending to be gracious here. Consider me unmotivated.
scumTordeck would have been content to be useless in this situation. As I said, his scum play is fairly one-dimensional, if Predator is any indicator. In this situation, I suspect scumTordeck would have said "no guys, Cyan is totally scum" and let Cyan push my mislynch as well as a few others before saying "guess you should have listened to me about Cyan!" and gone in for the kill.
Oh you mean useless like saying things such as:
Quote from Tordeck »
In order - lean scum, not enough content yet, ditto, ditto, lean town, town, lean town, not enough content yet.
Re: me asking him for reads on people?
And there was no way he was going to call me scum when virtually everyone else was calling me town, let's be real.
And this isn't about tordeck right now, it's about you. You're trying too hard to justify your tordeck read. Plenty of people are like 'I'm not sure' re: tordeck. And that is fine. It's early in the game. Not everyone has my conviction. But you are just reaching too hard here to declare tordeck town. Honestly it doesn't make sense for you as EITHER alignment, so it's a bit of an enigma to me.
To be frank, I think he's interacted with his buddies in such a way already that I think we can wrap the game up handily. Chris and Nacho have been throwing themselves at me, begging to be lynched, for example.
This is the stuff I am talking about. This is just so completely over the top, and I don't feel like this reflects your normal town play at all. I think that what we have here is you trying to mimic your town meta, and failing to do so.
Unrelatedly, I'm happy to discuss mafia approach/theory with you when we're not in the middle of a game.
I want to hear something from the following people:
Sir Chris, Vaimes, NotVoxx, Nacho. Do you think Iso is scum. Why or Why Not? I guess anyone can answer, but I am particularly interested in these people and anyone else that I have declared a town read on and am momentarily forgetting. Obviously I already know Tapping's answer.
I think it would be very difficult to emulate all of that,
Also I rely on investigation or kill shots to deal with certain players. Vox would definitely be one of those players.
Sir Chris isn't at that level yet but I would treat him similar to rhand. Try to ensure some sort of pressure exists by anyone in the game and then I will identify town that I trust and follow their read on players I cant.
Honestly, Most of my better played games come from identifying enough town and using pairing to PoE. So for someone like chris or rhand, It's not as important for me to directly engage them because their interactions for pairing will exist later and I'll have more people that I think are town.
Sir Chris isn't at that level yet but I would treat him similar to rhand. Try to ensure some sort of pressure exists by anyone in the game and then I will identify town that I trust and follow their read on players I cant.
Sir Chris might be the best Mafia player on this site, for the record.
Yep, it means that the original Rhand push was garbage!
You misunderstand me..somehow, even though the point I was trying to make was pretty clear. Nice of you to just belittle every case I ever try to make. Clearly pro-town behavior on your part.
Anyway. The point I was actually making is that people were willing to pile on Rhand, but have been unwilling to move much toward anyone else.
Not my fault you keep attacking people I think are town.
As for your point, my own response still stands - the fact that people were willing to push Rhand and not budge much elsewhere (aside from to myself) I think pretty strongly indicates that there were scum in favor of the Rhand lynch, and that the fact that we try to make headway anywhere other than Iso and come to a grinding halt also indicates that the scum are controlling the flow of the game, here. Now, let's think - which players were willing to lynch Rhand, which players were willing to lynch Iso, and where is the overlap with pushes that other people are trying to make?
Quote from Cyan »
One-time offer, Cyan - I will claim here and now if you think it will help you understand where I've been coming from this game. If you don't accept this offer in your next response to me, then I won't be claiming until I hit L-2 with intent to lynch.
Work with me, here. We can solve this game, together.
Yeah I think you just want to claim because you think it will advance your own position, and are just pretending to be gracious here. Consider me unmotivated.
Why on earth would I claim here if not to advance my own position? Is helping you understand my thought process not advancing my position?
So, just to be clear, you don't want to hear my role?
Quote from Cyan »
scumTordeck would have been content to be useless in this situation. As I said, his scum play is fairly one-dimensional, if Predator is any indicator. In this situation, I suspect scumTordeck would have said "no guys, Cyan is totally scum" and let Cyan push my mislynch as well as a few others before saying "guess you should have listened to me about Cyan!" and gone in for the kill.
Oh you mean useless like saying things such as:
Quote from Tordeck »
In order - lean scum, not enough content yet, ditto, ditto, lean town, town, lean town, not enough content yet.
Re: me asking him for reads on people?
Yeah, I kinda facepalmed when he gave that response. It's pretty frustrating when people you're white-knighting aren't putting forth the effort you are to put their actions into a town perspective for everyone else to see.
Quote from Cyan »
And this isn't about tordeck right now, it's about you. You're trying too hard to justify your tordeck read. Plenty of people are like 'I'm not sure' re: tordeck. And that is fine. It's early in the game. Not everyone has my conviction. But you are just reaching too hard here to declare tordeck town. Honestly it doesn't make sense for you as EITHER alignment, so it's a bit of an enigma to me.
I'm not "trying too hard" to justify my Tordeck read. I was asked in explicit detail why I was townreading Tordeck, and was asked multiple questions about the process that I went through to arrive at my conclusions. Did you ignore that part, or is answering questions now part of your case against me?
And, really - why wouldn't I just say, "Hey, you're right, Tordeck is totally scum!" when the momentum shifted to him and off of me? I'm sneaky enough as scum to get away with allowing someone to convince me that my townread isn't correct. Given that I was basically "the other choice" at that point, it makes absolutely no sense for me to draw attention back to myself by attempting to deter my counterwagon if I am, in fact, scum. There is no tactical benefit to that.
Quote from Cyan »
To be frank, I think he's interacted with his buddies in such a way already that I think we can wrap the game up handily. Chris and Nacho have been throwing themselves at me, begging to be lynched, for example.
This is the stuff I am talking about. This is just so completely over the top, and I don't feel like this reflects your normal town play at all. I think that what we have here is you trying to mimic your town meta, and failing to do so.
Like I said, I like to take on an entertainer's persona when I play Mafia. My phrasing may be a bit hyperbolic, but I like my language to flow and it gets the point across.
Quote from Cyan »
Unrelatedly, I'm happy to discuss mafia approach/theory with you when we're not in the middle of a game.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Sir Chris isn't at that level yet but I would treat him similar to rhand. Try to ensure some sort of pressure exists by anyone in the game and then I will identify town that I trust and follow their read on players I cant.
Sir Chris might be the best Mafia player on this site, for the record.
Usually people are really good at 1 faction over another. I know he is strong as scum. I don't think I've played with him when he rolled town.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Not my fault you keep attacking people I think are town. Shrugs
As for your point, my own response still stands - the fact that people were willing to push Rhand and not budge much elsewhere (aside from to myself) I think pretty strongly indicates that there were scum in favor of the Rhand lynch, and that the fact that we try to make headway anywhere other than Iso and come to a grinding halt also indicates that the scum are controlling the flow of the game, here. Now, let's think - which players were willing to lynch Rhand, which players were willing to lynch Iso, and where is the overlap with pushes that other people are trying to make? Rolleyes
Alright, we both don't feel great about Nacho right now. You for..whatever reason, and me because he just gave up on his suspicion of you just because you fought back. I'll have a look at him. Here are his posts:
Quote from Nacho »
At work on lunch break, not much time to post but:
I don't think Rhand bro dumb early game was particularly alignment indicative.
I do agree with Cyan that Iso's opening felt off.
Vote: Iso
Disagrees with my Rhand read. Agrees with my Iso read.
This is interesting, because you are calling Nacho scum, but you have also said that the Rhand wagon was 'scum driven', but have declared me town, and Nacho actually didn't agree with my Rhand assessment. Let's continue.
I understand a Cyan townread easily enough, but I don't understand why this was a tipping point.
Here we have Nacho, clearly trying to get into other people's heads and understand why they are thinking what they are thinking. Why would scum care about this at all? This seems like a pretty big town tell to me.
First problem: I don't actually believe that there's something so incredibly wrong with #31 that you suddenly decided to switch from normal happy death mode to tunnel-mode, and I can literally find nothing that points to where you're forming a scumread it's far more likely than not that you're just putting on aggression for the sake of aggression, which isn't any form of town!Iso that I'm familiar with.
This is the *exact* same assessment that I had of you regarding this. It perfectly echoes what I was feeling at the time, and I don't think I actually stated it. I am feeling great about Nacho as of this statement.
Sheeping Cyan while doing nothing else is exceedingly lame.
If Plowshares ever flips scum, I would hate this, except that the scum had daytalk at this point anyway, so it seems kind of moot. If one scum were going to take this stance against another in thread when they have daytalk, I would expect them to take a much, much harder line. So this is likely meaningless(unless Plow flips town, then it's a slight minus for Nacho).
The bolded is where we disagree.
I don't think that Rhand as scum would put more thought into an early post than Rhand as town. I think Rhand is pretty off the cuff and transparent as either alignment although he lurks like crazy as scum, and typically players who are afraid to post as scum are the types who think too much as opposed as not enough.
Do you disagree?
Further explains his thought process re: why he thinks Rhand is town, and honestly, in a way that makes absolute sense. Like seriously..I need to go back and read where your head was at, because if you had a scum read on Nacho at this point, I'm probably not going to unvote you for the rest of the day. His posts are literally screaming town right now.
I do have a problem with your post though: are you scumreading Iso or just voting him for pressure? Your wording sounds a lot like the latter.
Even here, Nacho wants to make sure that people voting Iso are doing it for the right reason. Why would a scum care? Why would a scum even pretend to care, and risk running people off of a wagon they have been pushing? Is it really worth it for a little credibility, when people were already town-reading Nacho at this point?
@NotVoxx's 157: I agree with pretty much everything in this post; I don't really agree with the Tetris suspicion but I agree with Rhand town, Tom town, town Cyan, scum Plowshares, scum Iso. The only thing that I don't like about this post is the lack of an Iso vote: are you seriously voting prowlingpenguin still?
Quote from Rhand »
Unvote, vote: Plowshares
Cyan is town. Tom and notVox probably too. And Seppel I think.
(is it public knowledge who notVox actually is?)
I don't have a read on Iso, but I don't understand how he sees the scumchat thing as a scumslip. It's way more likely to come from town.
More when I'm more awake.
The scumchat thing wasn't a scumslip. Iso tried to twist it as newbie scum "taunting the playerlist", which is one of the worst reasonings for actually thinking a player is scum that I've ever heard. Iso knows better. You know Iso knows better. Vote him.
@Voxxicus 173: What do you think of Iso's reasons for his push on Tom?
Quote from Vaimes »
Hm.
I'm hesitant to scumread Iso for going after tom, because. If Iso is such a top player, why would he go for what everyone considers to be a super easy target?
Do you think Iso's push on Tom looks scummy individually?
I'm not sure why Iso as scum would choose to pursue Tom - my best guess is that he wanted to emulate the aggresive!Iso tone better than his latest scumgames, but didn't have a strong case to push early and so attempted to push a scumread he couldn't really back up because he hoped people would follow on force of personality before. It's much easier for me to see Iso as scum deciding to push Tom than it is for me to see Iso as town deciding to push Tom; do you disagree?
TS's response to Vaimes is good. I'm not sold enough for a townread there yet, but I'm liking where his mind's at currently.
Still pushing for an Iso lynch here, and trying to work out how other people feel about Iso. Still sounds town. Not because he wants to lynch Iso, but specifically because of the way he approaches it.
@Rhand's 208:
I have trouble seeing Tordeck's opening as scum being to first attack Iso and then attack Cyan, regardless of their respective alignments. It's a lot about taking the path of least resistance since I don't consider Tordeck the ballsiest scumplayer based on Predator I don't think he suddenly decided to start tilting at players who could crush him in an instant throughout the course of one game of scum meta. I do agree his logic is all sorts of whacked out though, want to unpack that in a separate post.
I want to talk about this. I hand't considered it before, and it's a good point on tordeck's behalf. Though in fairness, tordeck never actually put any effort into trying to make a case against me or anything, and his vote on me was effectively a fake vote. But still, it's an interesting point nonetheless.
Then we have some null posts by Nacho, and finally the post where he moves his vote to Vaimes(someone that has also moved down on my list recently as well). To whit:
To Iso's credit, his latest reads wall is a hell of a lot better than anything I've seen him produce as a large picture as scum, so I'm happy to give him some room for now.
Unvote, Vote: Vaimes
I've been pretty underwhelmed with Vaimes this game. Don't have time to see if that's my fault or his, but hi Vaimes!
I'm still troubled by the fact that he put so much time and energy into the Iso wagon, and then just..unvoted based on what I consider flimsy logic, but I understand why he's voting Vaimes at least.
Plus he hasn't posted in a bit, so who knows.
Ultimately, whatever doubt I had about Nacho is completely nullified, and my suspicions toward Iso are completely reinforced. Your scumlist is comprised literally of people that were suspicious of you first and a guy that is a completely noob and is spouting out noob town tells everywhere.
As for you claiming. You are such a proud player. If you were town, there is no way you would make that offer. You wouldn't circumvent the process of letting your wagon happen and so on. You are just trying to make yourself look better here.
Sometimes, a person just has to follow their instincts. So, I guess I'm about to look super foolish, or, super smart.
im pretty sure iso is town, but even thinking hes scum why would you do it now? we have something like a month left in the Day. you dont think we could get some more out of him first?
like, i get wanting to use it Day 1 just in case you get NKed, but wait a couple weeks.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Eh. I wasn't going to change my mind about him, so..why wait? Nothing he said lined up with how I feel that Iso acts as town. In my mind, he was scum. The people that I have the strongest town reads on all thought he was scum. And no offense to you, Tom, but it's my role, to use as I see fit. And if he flips town, I'll be the one to accept responsibility for that.
If he is town, do you know what he was going to spend the next 'couple of weeks' doing? Telling us that you, Sir Chris, and Nacho are scum. We get it. I literally disagree with every one of those reads, for various reasons. Iso isn't going to change that. I don't think he is going to convince anyone that any of those people are scum.
And if he is scum, all he is going to do while you want to sit around with your thumb up your ass is pollute the thread. Why would I bother with that? You're welcome to disagree with my methodology, but you're probably wasting your time.
I considered listening to his claim first, but I felt like he was too eager to get it out there, which just made me more suspicious.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You just wasted your shot, Cyan. Slant This is why I asked if you wanted me to claim.
If you're town then..I probably just don't know how to be town anymore, and will give up for real after this game. I was considering not actually retiring because of the PCQ etc coming back, but like...I don't know. I'm pretty done with being wrong all of the time.
I just don't get it. None of your behavior in this game lined up with you being town. None of it. We were literally just town together, and I didn't have a problem with your behavior in that game at all. But in this game, you just seem like you are trying to mimic your behavior there, and completely failing to do so. Like come on, within 20 posts you had declared 2 people scum together, based on absolutely nothing. And shortly later, you added Nacho to the mix. And it's all absurd, because literally all of those people look like they are completely town to me. You are literally a parody of yourself this game.
If you flip town, I should honestly just replace out and be done with it. ****.
Ok cyan. Stop wallowing. It sure seems like iso knows he's not flipping here, so you still get to try to lynch him and you don't have to think about how wrong you are for another month
Sure, I went after you in XKCD on Day 1. That was then. This is now. I understand you much better as a player. That isn't invalidated simply because I misread your intent in our first game together. (That was our first game, right?) Anyway, one of the great things about the process of time and mistakes is that you can learn through them. I'll admit that I'm not as good at being scum as I used to be. Interestingly, Proph and I went over my entire history as scum last night, and I realized that I carried my team in literally every single game but four or five of them. (STMUII, because I replaced in and got caught for an inconsistent read with what my previous stance was when I was killed as town - though I nearly set up my team for victory with an absurd gambit, it fell short; Starcraft, because that game was horribly imbalanced in the scum's favor, anyway, so they didn't need me to win, though I certainly contributed to our victory; Katawa Shoujo, because I got Vigged on Night 2 for doing dumb things; and Smalltown Animaniacs, because I got lynched on Day 1 for playing without emotion as a gimmick in an attempt to try something new, and the SK and town butchered the rest of my team; and Cyberpunk, where I contributed to our plan, but ultimately, DRey was the one who stayed alive long enough to get us close to victory. I'd include Vanillaville here, but I set up the groundwork for the Iso_II hydra to survive as long as they did based on my interactions, alone, and they ultimately only died because the other anti-town faction killed them.) Kinda makes me wonder how I'd do in a game as scum where I didn't have to pull all of the strings! Anyway, I digress - my biggest weakness as mafia is starting with a clunk, and staying motivated long enough to continue putting forth the effort my team needs to win. Being scum is exhausting to me because it's not as fun as being town - there's no game for me to solve, and when you're scum, it's super easy to pick up on behavioral nuances that might indicate someone is a power role, which makes your kill choices even easier. Being town is exhausting, but in a different way. See, I have a reputation to uphold. I get quality reads and reactions from people early on, and for a streak of about 2 years, I didn't get mislynched a single time. (Admittedly, I got Vigged on N1 twice, but I don't count that because one was from Crosstown, where literally half the playerbase came from a different meta, and the other was when I falsecrumbed being Bulletproof to Wheat, who told me he was going to shoot me when I was the Cop and he was the Vig, and didn't want to be John Kimble from Kindergarten Cop ("I'm a cop, you idiot!") so as to draw a Roleblock and make my ability useless anyway.) But anyway, my play in the game of Mafia largely has two phases: Autopilot and Paradigm Shift. When I autopilot, I react viscerally to things. I take them as they come and vomit my thoughts into the thread on the matter, and sometimes I do silly or dumb things to generate reactions from people, which almost always results in my ability to read them. When I Paradigm Shift (you witnessed this in XKCD), which usually occurs after I receive flak for being on Autopilot or pushing harder than the situation warrants, I go back and objectively review everything I've generated. This has led to me solving Mafia games on Day 1 more times than I can remember off-hand, and I've adopted this as my more regular playstyle as town (though I occasionally stray into something more unconventional) because for a good chunk of time, I was mostly removed from the game via Nightkill. Sometimes I Paradigm Shift too late, and it results in my mislynch, or in my results being discounted shortly after I eat a Nightkill. My problem with playing as a member of the team goes back to my childhood. I always had to do all the work in group projects in school (even up through college) because my peers were ******* idiots and lazy to boot, so taking on the burden of solving the entire game naturally comes to me as something that I have to do, because I don't expect anyone else to carry their own weight. (And no, I'm not saying you guys are morons. I respect a lot of you as great thinkers.) I can understand why that can put people off and leave a bad taste in people's mouths. But I also have an ego the size of Saturn when it comes to certain things, and Mafia is one of them. I believe I am one of our best analysts, and as such, I'm inclined to discount or disbelieve stances not analogous to my own unless I am given sufficient reason to do so. ("Sufficient" is something subjective to how strong a case I think I have on somebody.) Because of this, I have effectively turned Mafia for me from a team game into a 1-man circus show, which I understand doesn't always benefit me or my team. In recent months, I've been trying to be less of a bully and more coercive with regards to getting people to see my side when it comes to worldview on the gamestate, and I'm not always successful, but I'm definitely trying. As mentioned above, in the case of Cyan, this isn't to demoralize, but rather, to apply harsh reinforcement or "tough love" to someone I think could benefit from it. Because, again, it's a team game. I don't always play well with others, but I definitely don't harbor any OoG grudges due to in-game events if I can help it. It's just a game, after all! And sure, tempers can flare, and things can get heated, but in the end, we're just trying to express our passion for gaming, psychology, and sociology in the form of performing a group activity. I'm also a performer by nature, so I like to put on a good show when I can. I try to be entertaining, witty, and clever; though I recognize that sometimes, I can let my ferocity and viciousness when I feel I've successfully latched on to scum get the best of me, I hope that doesn't drown out the (hopefully mostly) delightful persona I've created for myself via Mafia.
Anyway, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I recognize where my shortcomings in Mafia lie, and I'm doing what I can to address them within my comfort zone without detrimentally affecting my in-game performance.
You're saying that my shortcomings with functioning as a member of the team detrimentally affect my play, and I don't necessarily disagree, but it's hard for me to accept that anyone will carry on my legacy postmortem in games, as the only time that ever seems to happen is when I'm wrong. So, in your opinion: As a member of the town, what can I do to maintain my consistency in read accuracy without drawing the ire of the rest of the town while simultaneously putting the burden of solving the entire game on myself? More civilized discourse might be a good step in that direction, but as you know, talking to walls can be quite frustrating. So, what's your suggestion?
(Also, you're still scum. Because, again, "no ur rong" an argument does not make.)
You had played with me previously in Celestial where you also gave suspicion of me day one, but to be fair you did spend a fair amount of time just calling me a terrible player as well so maybe that doesn't count, by the end you didn't think I was scum, just terrible. See I entered this game with the mindset of "Okay, Iso needs to be brought into check if he is town and and this method also works really well if he is scum." I view you, Iso, as a momentum player. Often to the detriment of everyone else. You remind me of Cyan's reputation of a train with no brakes. You make a lot of mistakes though, a lot of errors in judgment, and you've been at your best when you have someone slowing you down (you were brilliant in XCKD, but only after I battled you relentlessly and you STILL got mislynched even over my objections - which if you think about it is quite impressive considering how annoying I can be to disagree with.) So I wanted to fight you early this game. And, in typical Iso fashion, you view standing in your way as a scum trait. 'no ur rong' for the record is an amazing argument when you are wrong. You made several statements that were not true. You said I was relentlessly trying to lynch you, which was of course very wrong. You said I was calling people town and scum without a second thought, and when I challenge you to show everyone examples of this you are apparently choosing to decline.
I am glad you can recognize your short comings, because you are a far more effective player if you actually apply that to the team. I don't think a scum iso is capable of admitting these flaws, you were much more rigid as scum. So now we need to get you pointed in a positive direction.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
Oh, Cyan's shot was apparently meant to be real. And Iso doesn't seem to care. Huh.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
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Hawk COULD be scum, but I think it's too early to say. He seems self-aware that his constantly playing catch-up isn't going to cut it, and I want to see if he is going to actually participate, and I want to evaluate said participation when it happens. If it doesn't, I'd definitely be willing to press him further, but as it stands now, I don't feel like we need to, because it would basically just be a semi-lurker pressure.
I really just want to put the full court press on Iso. I'm not 100% sold on him being scum(some of his posts sound genuine), but he's certainly the strongest lead that I have. I wish that we would have heard more from Rhand before he had to leave for a week and a half, I never really felt like I got a satisfactory resolution there.
As it stands right now, I have quite a few strong town reads for so early in a game, which is..probably bad, because most likely I'm wrong somewhere, but I really can't see where at the moment. I've looked and looked, and everyone that I think is town seems to be exhibiting genuine town tells and/or actively scumhunting, pushing the town's agenda, etc. The people I'm least certain about in my pro-town list are definitely Vaimes and Nacho. Nacho was way too quick to give up on his Iso vote when Iso started biting back.
I think I told you a few posts back to go after Iso and you rebuked me.
@ALL-How does everyone feel about Iso right now, besides Tom-your post count is starting to creep up again = (
I won't be around this evening, so expect next postings from me tomorrow evening.
@iso: Last piece, what would you have expected a scum tordeck in that same spot who similarly misread the flow to do?
Wait, but didn't you unvote me before hawk's post that made you vote him?
Yep, it means that the original Rhand push was garbage!
I push your buttons the way that I do because I'm trying to push you to play better and hunt harder. There's nothing wrong with doubting your reads, but when you let your conviction cripple you, it's no different from being paralyzed by doubt in outcome. Through the years, I've been trying to help you understand that, and I feel like we've made some headway, but you're stuck in trying to emulate your old playstyle, which is just heinously archaic for MTGS Mafia's meta in this day and age. I hope you understand that I don't do this to antagonize you, but rather, because I respect you as a player and recognize that you could still be a force to be reckoned with if you adapted to all the newfangled things the kids are doing these days. When I tell you that you're playing like garbage, it's not to discourage you - it's to get you to take a step back and make you think, "Wait - maybe I'm going about this the wrong way," when it's necessary, which I think will ultimately benefit you in the long term as a Mafia player. I don't know if you recognize that any of what I'm saying is valid or if you're just laughing because you think you don't need anyone's help to be a better player and "things should go back to the way they were, you damn kids need to get off my lawn" but yeah.
I know this is only tangentially related to a point I was making earlier, but with your quoted post above, I just wanted to make this clear to you.
One-time offer, Cyan - I will claim here and now if you think it will help you understand where I've been coming from this game. If you don't accept this offer in your next response to me, then I won't be claiming until I hit L-2 with intent to lynch.
Work with me, here. We can solve this game, together.
He's my strongest town read.
TappingStones, I notice you haven't actually engaged me or asked me anything, choosing instead to simply state that I am scum. May I ask where your head is on this matter? If you want me lynched, shouldn't you be casing me, or at least talking to me?
scumTordeck would have been content to be useless in this situation. As I said, his scum play is fairly one-dimensional, if Predator is any indicator. In this situation, I suspect scumTordeck would have said "no guys, Cyan is totally scum" and let Cyan push my mislynch as well as a few others before saying "guess you should have listened to me about Cyan!" and gone in for the kill.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
First off I had 1 disclaimer that I was catching up and 2 catch up posts.
After that I've been pretty ******* involved.
Not a single person wanted to talk about what I thought about seppel?
Meanwhile tapoing stones has accused both iso and myself of being scum without asking wither of us relevant questions and than has the audacity to complain that no one wants to case me. What the hell is that.
Meanwhile pengo tries to dismiss everything I've said up into this point.
I'm down for lynching either of these players.
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You had a lot of good questions on your 125 post. However you ended up pointing out a post and calling it bad. I prefer explanations even if it seems obvious why it's bad. Reason being is people call posts bad as a lazy and dismissive tactic (see pengo above)
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What do you think of vaimes?
What about nacho?
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Leaning town, I suppose. You aren't really one for adventures like the one we're having as scum, if prior experience is any indication.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Outdated Mafia Stats
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Is this post some kind of bad joke? I asked you questions. You then accused me of a misrep, which is totally false What do you want us to say about Seppel? I beleive his claim. If you dont then have at it.
But we can also talk you too.
Why is Tom worth this much effort right now? Is he really that scummy? If he's scum can't we trick into some bad onteractions with potential scummates before you dismember him?
I feel like your tone resembles the last day of Amryln Seat right before I deposed you and reveled in victory with Tordeck and Rhand.
I mean, what exactly do you expect me to say in response to "no ur rong"?
Sure, I went after you in XKCD on Day 1. That was then. This is now. I understand you much better as a player. That isn't invalidated simply because I misread your intent in our first game together. (That was our first game, right?) Anyway, one of the great things about the process of time and mistakes is that you can learn through them. I'll admit that I'm not as good at being scum as I used to be. Interestingly, Proph and I went over my entire history as scum last night, and I realized that I carried my team in literally every single game but four or five of them. (STMUII, because I replaced in and got caught for an inconsistent read with what my previous stance was when I was killed as town - though I nearly set up my team for victory with an absurd gambit, it fell short; Starcraft, because that game was horribly imbalanced in the scum's favor, anyway, so they didn't need me to win, though I certainly contributed to our victory; Katawa Shoujo, because I got Vigged on Night 2 for doing dumb things; and Smalltown Animaniacs, because I got lynched on Day 1 for playing without emotion as a gimmick in an attempt to try something new, and the SK and town butchered the rest of my team; and Cyberpunk, where I contributed to our plan, but ultimately, DRey was the one who stayed alive long enough to get us close to victory. I'd include Vanillaville here, but I set up the groundwork for the Iso_II hydra to survive as long as they did based on my interactions, alone, and they ultimately only died because the other anti-town faction killed them.) Kinda makes me wonder how I'd do in a game as scum where I didn't have to pull all of the strings! Anyway, I digress - my biggest weakness as mafia is starting with a clunk, and staying motivated long enough to continue putting forth the effort my team needs to win. Being scum is exhausting to me because it's not as fun as being town - there's no game for me to solve, and when you're scum, it's super easy to pick up on behavioral nuances that might indicate someone is a power role, which makes your kill choices even easier. Being town is exhausting, but in a different way. See, I have a reputation to uphold. I get quality reads and reactions from people early on, and for a streak of about 2 years, I didn't get mislynched a single time. (Admittedly, I got Vigged on N1 twice, but I don't count that because one was from Crosstown, where literally half the playerbase came from a different meta, and the other was when I falsecrumbed being Bulletproof to Wheat, who told me he was going to shoot me when I was the Cop and he was the Vig, and didn't want to be John Kimble from Kindergarten Cop ("I'm a cop, you idiot!") so as to draw a Roleblock and make my ability useless anyway.) But anyway, my play in the game of Mafia largely has two phases: Autopilot and Paradigm Shift. When I autopilot, I react viscerally to things. I take them as they come and vomit my thoughts into the thread on the matter, and sometimes I do silly or dumb things to generate reactions from people, which almost always results in my ability to read them. When I Paradigm Shift (you witnessed this in XKCD), which usually occurs after I receive flak for being on Autopilot or pushing harder than the situation warrants, I go back and objectively review everything I've generated. This has led to me solving Mafia games on Day 1 more times than I can remember off-hand, and I've adopted this as my more regular playstyle as town (though I occasionally stray into something more unconventional) because for a good chunk of time, I was mostly removed from the game via Nightkill. Sometimes I Paradigm Shift too late, and it results in my mislynch, or in my results being discounted shortly after I eat a Nightkill. My problem with playing as a member of the team goes back to my childhood. I always had to do all the work in group projects in school (even up through college) because my peers were ******* idiots and lazy to boot, so taking on the burden of solving the entire game naturally comes to me as something that I have to do, because I don't expect anyone else to carry their own weight. (And no, I'm not saying you guys are morons. I respect a lot of you as great thinkers.) I can understand why that can put people off and leave a bad taste in people's mouths. But I also have an ego the size of Saturn when it comes to certain things, and Mafia is one of them. I believe I am one of our best analysts, and as such, I'm inclined to discount or disbelieve stances not analogous to my own unless I am given sufficient reason to do so. ("Sufficient" is something subjective to how strong a case I think I have on somebody.) Because of this, I have effectively turned Mafia for me from a team game into a 1-man circus show, which I understand doesn't always benefit me or my team. In recent months, I've been trying to be less of a bully and more coercive with regards to getting people to see my side when it comes to worldview on the gamestate, and I'm not always successful, but I'm definitely trying. As mentioned above, in the case of Cyan, this isn't to demoralize, but rather, to apply harsh reinforcement or "tough love" to someone I think could benefit from it. Because, again, it's a team game. I don't always play well with others, but I definitely don't harbor any OoG grudges due to in-game events if I can help it. It's just a game, after all! And sure, tempers can flare, and things can get heated, but in the end, we're just trying to express our passion for gaming, psychology, and sociology in the form of performing a group activity. I'm also a performer by nature, so I like to put on a good show when I can. I try to be entertaining, witty, and clever; though I recognize that sometimes, I can let my ferocity and viciousness when I feel I've successfully latched on to scum get the best of me, I hope that doesn't drown out the (hopefully mostly) delightful persona I've created for myself via Mafia.
Anyway, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I recognize where my shortcomings in Mafia lie, and I'm doing what I can to address them within my comfort zone without detrimentally affecting my in-game performance.
You're saying that my shortcomings with functioning as a member of the team detrimentally affect my play, and I don't necessarily disagree, but it's hard for me to accept that anyone will carry on my legacy postmortem in games, as the only time that ever seems to happen is when I'm wrong. So, in your opinion: As a member of the town, what can I do to maintain my consistency in read accuracy without drawing the ire of the rest of the town while simultaneously putting the burden of solving the entire game on myself? More civilized discourse might be a good step in that direction, but as you know, talking to walls can be quite frustrating. So, what's your suggestion?
(Also, you're still scum. Because, again, "no ur rong" an argument does not make.)
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
To be frank, I think he's interacted with his buddies in such a way already that I think we can wrap the game up handily. Chris and Nacho have been throwing themselves at me, begging to be lynched, for example.
My tone in Amyrlin was bitter and desperate because I knew I couldn't wiggle my way out of the situation and pull a victory for my team. My tone here has been somewhat bitter (though I've been trying not to let this game get to me as much as others have in the past) because I feel like nobody's listening to me and I'm getting flak after getting a really cool role in this game that really complements my playstyle and tendency for crazy gambits. Is that to what you are referring?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
In order - lean scum, not enough content yet, ditto, ditto, lean town, town, lean town, not enough content yet.
You exhibited some of the signs of your play from an ongoing game. Was enough for me to believe this is your town game.
The Family
Sorry about my absence.
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
@Iso
So I felt like we had similar interpretations on things that unfolded earlier. That with claiming lightning rod which seems like some weird gambit that would only be made as town motive.
These things are town
However I completely disagree with your Tom and tapped stones read and I believe cyan is town and he seems pretty adamant in lynching you.
Anyways, I disagree with lynching you today because you have some kind of goal in mind with your claim and Ive seen similar claims work for the town in the past.
Tl;dr
You make me feel as conflicted as a closeted kid at an all boys church camp.
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I've made it no secret that my three biggest scum reads are tom, Chris, and Nacho. If I'm not mistaken, you shared at least one of those with me at one point. What changed?
Also, how would you say your town reads line up with my own that I gave in my big post (minus ts and TS, obviously)? Do you find any reasoning there to be particularly faulty?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Iso
I agree with you on seppel, cyan, Rhand I can't read, and i disagree with tapping and prowling.
I like your might be town because I feel fine about vaimes and tordeck. Citric is null for me.
Your no read is fine. However I do have a meta read on plow that I would put leaning slightly towards town. (He needs to post more.)
as far as might be scum, I disagree about notvox. I've liked his anaylsis so far and he seems to be thinking about the game on a fairly deep level.
then your scum list, I honestly can't read sir chris because I don't think I've ever seen him as town and he ruthlessly busses anyways so if he is scum, let him blow up the mafia team.
I'd be ok with policy lynching simple jack, I don't think he's scum but the fact that he's filling the thread with crap constantly is annoying. He honestly reminds me of the first game I played with Rodemy.
Next is your analysis:
I agree with your seppel and have my own reasons to confirm your theory.
Disagree with you on tapping so much. his #162 post seriously drove me crazy. Go take another read and please explain how a town makes that post. No serious, go now.
Your analysis of Cyan I think might be accurate. I'm not sure if he's right or wrong on his scum reads but He seems way to aggro for scum cyan. For example there are things that he's doing that I don't fully understand where scum cyan is always sqeaky clean.
Rhand - The way you talk about rhand is similar to how me and rhand are, except I've haven't really gotten closer to understanding him. I'm pretty sure I've played with him more than anyone else on the site and we still are on completely different wave lengths. At one point I even had him mentor me just so I knew I'd have a completely different fresh perspective to mafia than my own.
Prowling - I disagree again. I feel like the way he's interacting isn't providing anything meaningful. Also I have some personal scum tells that I use. For example I feel like scum are more often to use quote walls and open ended questions because it shows concretely them interacting with the game and the open ended questions makes them look like they are interrogating people.
The problem with this is the many of questions he asked in #59 don't really do anything, they just make people look bad without garnering any new information.
I think this might be how you view NotVox if i'm not mistaken.
Tordeck - I agree with your analysis here.
Vaimes - Agree, (don't have my own meta but he seems to be approaching the game in a good way)
Citric - Again, he's null for me but I do use verbage and tone as tells a lot so I can respect this.
Tetris - Your analysis is fine, player hasn't left any real impression which is generally scummy
NotVox - Disagree, I've already explained. I also use pairing to solve the game a lot so that which bothers you doesn't bother me at all.
Nachomamma - Disagree with you saying his opening is ok. I found his #75 to just be lazy scum where he thinks rhands opening was fine (Completely disagree, that **** was sketchy as hell) and barns cyan that you are scum. What an easy way to back up a very vocal person and if rhand or nacho is scum, I think this is definitely an aligned pair.
SirChris - Undecided. I usually use meta or personal scum tells day 1 and both aren't fitting him currently. I'm not sure if he's a good lynch today.
Tom - I have zero meta but I assumed he was pulling a rodemy and acting stupid on purpose to stir up ****. I agree with you that he has only said obvious things, fluff, crap or barned but bad does not equal scum. That being said it's annoying to find a needle in a haystack when simple jack keeps getting in the way.
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that said, it would be nice if both of you considered the possibility that your initial reads might not be correct. youre both great players or whatever, but that doesnt mean you dont have to change your positions as the game unfolds.
@tapping i cased hawk. just sayin.
@hawk dont be pissed, be townie. im waiting.
@cyan (and everyone else i guess) have you considered the possibility that the double voter has the ability to put his votes on two different players? possibly via private message. i dont particularly like you speculating in thread about who it is, but this theory makes it harder for hawk and company to kill them.
@chris come on man. i dont want to scumread you again. its exhausting.
defending yourself is not a good look on you. find some scum
@iso ok we already agree on nacho as scum (for different reasons, but lets not be nitpicky), and im basically down with all your solid town reads in 362. i even suspect seppel lied about his claim and is town.
but im having some trouble with your lean town list. and i dont even remember tetris. but overall we have a lot of common ground here.
youve already made the point for tordeck, and it gave me some things to think about. i think i have him as null now.
so id like to hear why hawk is town other than agreeing with you.
and, as always, im receptive to a case against chris.
is this some kind of new form of omgus? he thinks im town but wants to kill me anyway? its like jobie and tapping from predator had a scummy baby.
I think that tying Rhand and Nacho together is a stretch. Can you go more into detail on NotVoxx? His stance on engaging the person you're trying to lynch is all kinds of wrong to me, but I can't tell if that means he's scum or just bad at being town.
Looking over your thoughts on my reads and reasoning, do you think you're just being paranoid and that I could reasonably come to the conclusions that I have as town, or do you still think I'm scum after piecing out my thought process next to your own? Do you think that where our reads and analyses hold discrepancy is something that can be chalked up as a difference in game approach/theory philosophy/etc.? Most importantly, do you think that if my stances are plausible as having come from townIso that these are also points of view that scumIso could emulate for the sake of appearing town?
A thought exercise: How would a player who approaches the game in the manner that you do catch a player such as Sir Chris if he were scum, short of an investigation or killing role targeting him?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You misunderstand me..somehow, even though the point I was trying to make was pretty clear. Nice of you to just belittle every case I ever try to make. Clearly pro-town behavior on your part.
Anyway. The point I was actually making is that people were willing to pile on Rhand, but have been unwilling to move much toward anyone else.
Yeah I think you just want to claim because you think it will advance your own position, and are just pretending to be gracious here. Consider me unmotivated.
Oh you mean useless like saying things such as:
Re: me asking him for reads on people?
And there was no way he was going to call me scum when virtually everyone else was calling me town, let's be real.
And this isn't about tordeck right now, it's about you. You're trying too hard to justify your tordeck read. Plenty of people are like 'I'm not sure' re: tordeck. And that is fine. It's early in the game. Not everyone has my conviction. But you are just reaching too hard here to declare tordeck town. Honestly it doesn't make sense for you as EITHER alignment, so it's a bit of an enigma to me.
This is the stuff I am talking about. This is just so completely over the top, and I don't feel like this reflects your normal town play at all. I think that what we have here is you trying to mimic your town meta, and failing to do so.
Unrelatedly, I'm happy to discuss mafia approach/theory with you when we're not in the middle of a game.
I want to hear something from the following people:
Sir Chris, Vaimes, NotVoxx, Nacho. Do you think Iso is scum. Why or Why Not? I guess anyone can answer, but I am particularly interested in these people and anyone else that I have declared a town read on and am momentarily forgetting. Obviously I already know Tapping's answer.
Also I rely on investigation or kill shots to deal with certain players. Vox would definitely be one of those players.
Sir Chris isn't at that level yet but I would treat him similar to rhand. Try to ensure some sort of pressure exists by anyone in the game and then I will identify town that I trust and follow their read on players I cant.
Honestly, Most of my better played games come from identifying enough town and using pairing to PoE. So for someone like chris or rhand, It's not as important for me to directly engage them because their interactions for pairing will exist later and I'll have more people that I think are town.
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Sir Chris might be the best Mafia player on this site, for the record.
Not my fault you keep attacking people I think are town.
As for your point, my own response still stands - the fact that people were willing to push Rhand and not budge much elsewhere (aside from to myself) I think pretty strongly indicates that there were scum in favor of the Rhand lynch, and that the fact that we try to make headway anywhere other than Iso and come to a grinding halt also indicates that the scum are controlling the flow of the game, here. Now, let's think - which players were willing to lynch Rhand, which players were willing to lynch Iso, and where is the overlap with pushes that other people are trying to make?
Why on earth would I claim here if not to advance my own position? Is helping you understand my thought process not advancing my position?
So, just to be clear, you don't want to hear my role?
Yeah, I kinda facepalmed when he gave that response. It's pretty frustrating when people you're white-knighting aren't putting forth the effort you are to put their actions into a town perspective for everyone else to see.
I'm not "trying too hard" to justify my Tordeck read. I was asked in explicit detail why I was townreading Tordeck, and was asked multiple questions about the process that I went through to arrive at my conclusions. Did you ignore that part, or is answering questions now part of your case against me?
And, really - why wouldn't I just say, "Hey, you're right, Tordeck is totally scum!" when the momentum shifted to him and off of me? I'm sneaky enough as scum to get away with allowing someone to convince me that my townread isn't correct. Given that I was basically "the other choice" at that point, it makes absolutely no sense for me to draw attention back to myself by attempting to deter my counterwagon if I am, in fact, scum. There is no tactical benefit to that.
Like I said, I like to take on an entertainer's persona when I play Mafia. My phrasing may be a bit hyperbolic, but I like my language to flow and it gets the point across.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Usually people are really good at 1 faction over another. I know he is strong as scum. I don't think I've played with him when he rolled town.
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Note: feel free to read this post as "no one's talked about me in 2 hours and that is unacceptable"
I believe I answered your questions.
I said that it would be hard to emulate how you've acted so I think that this would be difficult for you to pull off as scum.
And then regarding your thought exercise, I said I would find town that could read players that I can't and trust in those reads.
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I did make a case on Chris.
As for hawk, are you following along with our conversation?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
No I don't think you are scum after this. I feel like this interaction has helped not only my view towards you but also refocus.
Im going to reread not vox specifically looking in to the mafia theory gameplay you have a problem with.
Also the pairing might have been a stretch but the game is early and evidence is low.
Outdated Mafia Stats
and yeah, im following. what am i supposed to be seeing?
Alright, we both don't feel great about Nacho right now. You for..whatever reason, and me because he just gave up on his suspicion of you just because you fought back. I'll have a look at him. Here are his posts:
Disagrees with my Rhand read. Agrees with my Iso read.
This is interesting, because you are calling Nacho scum, but you have also said that the Rhand wagon was 'scum driven', but have declared me town, and Nacho actually didn't agree with my Rhand assessment. Let's continue.
Here we have Nacho, clearly trying to get into other people's heads and understand why they are thinking what they are thinking. Why would scum care about this at all? This seems like a pretty big town tell to me.
This is the *exact* same assessment that I had of you regarding this. It perfectly echoes what I was feeling at the time, and I don't think I actually stated it. I am feeling great about Nacho as of this statement.
If Plowshares ever flips scum, I would hate this, except that the scum had daytalk at this point anyway, so it seems kind of moot. If one scum were going to take this stance against another in thread when they have daytalk, I would expect them to take a much, much harder line. So this is likely meaningless(unless Plow flips town, then it's a slight minus for Nacho).
Further explains his thought process re: why he thinks Rhand is town, and honestly, in a way that makes absolute sense. Like seriously..I need to go back and read where your head was at, because if you had a scum read on Nacho at this point, I'm probably not going to unvote you for the rest of the day. His posts are literally screaming town right now.
Even here, Nacho wants to make sure that people voting Iso are doing it for the right reason. Why would a scum care? Why would a scum even pretend to care, and risk running people off of a wagon they have been pushing? Is it really worth it for a little credibility, when people were already town-reading Nacho at this point?
Still pushing for an Iso lynch here, and trying to work out how other people feel about Iso. Still sounds town. Not because he wants to lynch Iso, but specifically because of the way he approaches it.
I want to talk about this. I hand't considered it before, and it's a good point on tordeck's behalf. Though in fairness, tordeck never actually put any effort into trying to make a case against me or anything, and his vote on me was effectively a fake vote. But still, it's an interesting point nonetheless.
Then we have some null posts by Nacho, and finally the post where he moves his vote to Vaimes(someone that has also moved down on my list recently as well). To whit:
I'm still troubled by the fact that he put so much time and energy into the Iso wagon, and then just..unvoted based on what I consider flimsy logic, but I understand why he's voting Vaimes at least.
Plus he hasn't posted in a bit, so who knows.
Ultimately, whatever doubt I had about Nacho is completely nullified, and my suspicions toward Iso are completely reinforced. Your scumlist is comprised literally of people that were suspicious of you first and a guy that is a completely noob and is spouting out noob town tells everywhere.
As for you claiming. You are such a proud player. If you were town, there is no way you would make that offer. You wouldn't circumvent the process of letting your wagon happen and so on. You are just trying to make yourself look better here.
Sometimes, a person just has to follow their instincts. So, I guess I'm about to look super foolish, or, super smart.
Daykill Iso
im pretty sure iso is town, but even thinking hes scum why would you do it now? we have something like a month left in the Day. you dont think we could get some more out of him first?
like, i get wanting to use it Day 1 just in case you get NKed, but wait a couple weeks.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
If he is town, do you know what he was going to spend the next 'couple of weeks' doing? Telling us that you, Sir Chris, and Nacho are scum. We get it. I literally disagree with every one of those reads, for various reasons. Iso isn't going to change that. I don't think he is going to convince anyone that any of those people are scum.
And if he is scum, all he is going to do while you want to sit around with your thumb up your ass is pollute the thread. Why would I bother with that? You're welcome to disagree with my methodology, but you're probably wasting your time.
I considered listening to his claim first, but I felt like he was too eager to get it out there, which just made me more suspicious.
I have to ask if you even read my case on Nacho, because your analysis of him doesn't even touch on my points, IIRC.
Do you think Nacho is a bad scum player?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
If you're town then..I probably just don't know how to be town anymore, and will give up for real after this game. I was considering not actually retiring because of the PCQ etc coming back, but like...I don't know. I'm pretty done with being wrong all of the time.
I just don't get it. None of your behavior in this game lined up with you being town. None of it. We were literally just town together, and I didn't have a problem with your behavior in that game at all. But in this game, you just seem like you are trying to mimic your behavior there, and completely failing to do so. Like come on, within 20 posts you had declared 2 people scum together, based on absolutely nothing. And shortly later, you added Nacho to the mix. And it's all absurd, because literally all of those people look like they are completely town to me. You are literally a parody of yourself this game.
If you flip town, I should honestly just replace out and be done with it. ****.
Come on Iso, how do you honestly think this guy is scum.
You had played with me previously in Celestial where you also gave suspicion of me day one, but to be fair you did spend a fair amount of time just calling me a terrible player as well so maybe that doesn't count, by the end you didn't think I was scum, just terrible. See I entered this game with the mindset of "Okay, Iso needs to be brought into check if he is town and and this method also works really well if he is scum." I view you, Iso, as a momentum player. Often to the detriment of everyone else. You remind me of Cyan's reputation of a train with no brakes. You make a lot of mistakes though, a lot of errors in judgment, and you've been at your best when you have someone slowing you down (you were brilliant in XCKD, but only after I battled you relentlessly and you STILL got mislynched even over my objections - which if you think about it is quite impressive considering how annoying I can be to disagree with.) So I wanted to fight you early this game. And, in typical Iso fashion, you view standing in your way as a scum trait. 'no ur rong' for the record is an amazing argument when you are wrong. You made several statements that were not true. You said I was relentlessly trying to lynch you, which was of course very wrong. You said I was calling people town and scum without a second thought, and when I challenge you to show everyone examples of this you are apparently choosing to decline.
I am glad you can recognize your short comings, because you are a far more effective player if you actually apply that to the team. I don't think a scum iso is capable of admitting these flaws, you were much more rigid as scum. So now we need to get you pointed in a positive direction.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player