You say he dropped off the map a bit and hasn't said anything new since you posted the "I'm hunting you" comment, but ignored his responses to it. This is why I asked about your lack of further interaction with him.
Put a little effort into the game Zionite. I called you SCUM IN CAPITAL LETTERS and in the next post called you very lynchable. READ THE POST. STOP skimming.
Note that Zionite still hasn't responded to me. This post on his part was a bold faced lie. I called him SCUM (written in capital letters and then in the next post said he was very lynchable.
Note that we now have confirmation that Zionite has read the post proving that he lied and has avoided the issue entirely.
Zionite why did you lie? Did you think it would help your case against me?
By the way, Tom called me scum after I called him scum...that makes him scum?
You saying I'm scum isn't some kind of safety net to protect your weak play. If you play bad you're going to get called out on it, I could care less if you said I was scum "first".
Are you a five-year old? "Mommy, I called him scum ffiirrrsstt"
Still waiting on Zionite to fess up to his lie. He claims that I posted he was "lean town" and in the next post said he was "very lynchable". I can't find this. Where are these posts. 4TH TIME I've asked for Zionite to provide the posts in question. I haven't dealt with this much evasive behavior since I began playing Mafia. But as Zionite has claimed he gets run up in day one often I can totally understand why.
UNVOTE; VOTE:ZIONITE
Answer my question. Where are these posts you speak of?
In the first four quotes you reference your reads list posts that he clearly misread, then in the 5th post you say you don't know which posts he's referring to.
You say he dropped off the map a bit and hasn't said anything new since you posted the "I'm hunting you" comment, but ignored his responses to it. This is why I asked about your lack of further interaction with him.
Put a little effort into the game Zionite. I called you SCUM IN CAPITAL LETTERS and in the next post called you very lynchable. READ THE POST. STOP skimming.
Note that Zionite still hasn't responded to me. This post on his part was a bold faced lie. I called him SCUM (written in capital letters and then in the next post said he was very lynchable.
Note that we now have confirmation that Zionite has read the post proving that he lied and has avoided the issue entirely.
Zionite why did you lie? Did you think it would help your case against me?
By the way, Tom called me scum after I called him scum...that makes him scum?
You saying I'm scum isn't some kind of safety net to protect your weak play. If you play bad you're going to get called out on it, I could care less if you said I was scum "first".
Are you a five-year old? "Mommy, I called him scum ffiirrrsstt"
Still waiting on Zionite to fess up to his lie. He claims that I posted he was "lean town" and in the next post said he was "very lynchable". I can't find this. Where are these posts. 4TH TIME I've asked for Zionite to provide the posts in question. I haven't dealt with this much evasive behavior since I began playing Mafia. But as Zionite has claimed he gets run up in day one often I can totally understand why.
UNVOTE; VOTE:ZIONITE
Answer my question. Where are these posts you speak of?
In the first four quotes you reference your reads list posts that he clearly misread, then in the 5th post you say you don't know which posts he's referring to.
To the first question. I didn't think I didn't know I stopped interacting with etr. Looks like I got bogged down by all the Tom interaction. One of the things I'm looking to improve on is staying above the slapfights but I've struggled with that so far this game. For your second question you can look back to the player that suggested we could have 12 town 3 mafia 3 werewolf. Those numbers seemed as sound to me as any other combination I could think of at the time. Is 2-2-14 more normal? I have no idea. If I had to guess I would say 12-3-3. Question three I'm not sure what you're asking here? I kept pressuring him to provide the evidence for his statements, he has refused to. I went back and looked through all of my posts in case there was a chance I'm being stupid and missed something, but I have failed to find what he has claimed about me. I'm asking where are these statements he's referring to. Could I be making a mistake? Would he really just ignore his mistake this long? I'll be embarrassed if the post actually exists but after looking back I'm confident he was misrepping me.
You're so innocent Tom. You never answered S.C.'s rather strong question. Why are you under some idea that you can read people? You'd lived through exactly one night in your mafia career and were day killed by someone that didn't even suspect you as scum. He (and others wanted you dead because your play was so poor). You hounded S.C. and I the entire game and guess what...we were both town. Now I'm town again and S.C. hasn't done anything to break with the last town game I played with him.
You have no idea what a townread even looks like. What does a town player do Tom? Explain it to all of us please...with your vast knowledge.
to which strong question are you referring?
the one where he wants to know why i wont take his word for a town read on you when he hasnt read the game?
or the one where he asks what about predator gave me confidence in my reads?
im going to assume the latter, since the first one was stupid.
well, i correctly scum read ika and tordeck, and correctly townread hookerpunch and you (to be fair, i did scumread you for quite awhile in the middle of my time alive, but towncleared you toward the end).
hell, i started the ika wagon.
i was definitely wrong on chris. and rhand. ***** happens. hopefully ive learned from it.
but overall, i thought i did pretty well for my very first game. at least in regards to my reads, if not in my ability to make friends/stay alive.
and what the hell does being killed have to do with anything?
also, you seem to have forgotten that youre pretending that you think im scum for this line of questioning. going after my ability to read people when youre supposed to think i know the answers.
but thats expected. youve tried a lot of different ways to attack me this game. starting with your very first post after confirming.
I do want it on the record now that it's fairly obvious that Tom is going to continue to "hover" his vote over me until an opportunistic wagon presents itself. His last response was similar to what I thought he'd say when pressed on why he hasn't applied any pressure to someone he's called scummy multiple times.
yes, im going to continue to vote my top scum read. especially when he keeps saying scummy things.
but i have made quite clear the other two and a half players im willing to lynch if the wagon gets large enough.
because i get that there is more than one scum player in this game and forming a majority is hard.
do you not consider openly scumreading someone to be "pressure"?
You're so innocent Tom. You never answered S.C.'s rather strong question. Why are you under some idea that you can read people? You'd lived through exactly one night in your mafia career and were day killed by someone that didn't even suspect you as scum. He (and others wanted you dead because your play was so poor). You hounded S.C. and I the entire game and guess what...we were both town. Now I'm town again and S.C. hasn't done anything to break with the last town game I played with him.
You have no idea what a townread even looks like. What does a town player do Tom? Explain it to all of us please...with your vast knowledge.
to which strong question are you referring?
the one where he wants to know why i wont take his word for a town read on you when he hasnt read the game?
or the one where he asks what about predator gave me confidence in my reads?
im going to assume the latter, since the first one was stupid.
well, i correctly scum read ika and tordeck, and correctly townread hookerpunch and you (to be fair, i did scumread you for quite awhile in the middle of my time alive, but towncleared you toward the end).
hell, i started the ika wagon.
i was definitely wrong on chris. and rhand. ***** happens. hopefully ive learned from it.
but overall, i thought i did pretty well for my very first game. at least in regards to my reads, if not in my ability to make friends/stay alive.
and what the hell does being killed have to do with anything?
also, you seem to have forgotten that youre pretending that you think im scum for this line of questioning. going after my ability to read people when youre supposed to think i know the answers.
but thats expected. youve tried a lot of different ways to attack me this game. starting with your very first post after confirming.
I do want it on the record now that it's fairly obvious that Tom is going to continue to "hover" his vote over me until an opportunistic wagon presents itself. His last response was similar to what I thought he'd say when pressed on why he hasn't applied any pressure to someone he's called scummy multiple times.
yes, im going to continue to vote my top scum read. especially when he keeps saying scummy things.
but i have made quite clear the other two and a half players im willing to lynch if the wagon gets large enough.
because i get that there is more than one scum player in this game and forming a majority is hard.
do you not consider openly scumreading someone to be "pressure"?
I consider tunneling me in an 18 player game pretty poor play in general, scum or not. You did this to S.C. in your first game and bogged the conversation down quite a bit. You actually had one brilliant comment in this game when you told someone that not a single player from Predator mafia was voting me and there was good reason for that. Unfortunately you're now the only fool from Predator Mafia.
It's frustrating to play with you on many levels and I made it known to the mod + asked if you could be coached for your next game. Tom what exactly was so scummy about S.C. that you couldn't let go? What's so scummy about me that you can't let go? Are the players that are town reading me all worse analysist's than you?
I consider tunneling me in an 18 player game pretty poor play in general, scum or not. You did this to S.C. in your first game and bogged the conversation down quite a bit. You actually had one brilliant comment in this game when you told someone that not a single player from Predator mafia was voting me and there was good reason for that. Unfortunately you're now the only fool from Predator Mafia.
It's frustrating to play with you on many levels and I made it known to the mod + asked if you could be coached for your next game. Tom what exactly was so scummy about S.C. that you couldn't let go? What's so scummy about me that you can't let go? Are the players that are town reading me all worse analysist's than you?
Enlighten us if you will Tom.
you are very definitely the one bogging down the conversation in this game. i keep enabling it and share plenty of the blame, and i apologize to everyone.
i guess i have to just stop responding to you for awhile.
but sure, lets do one more:
first, im not sure what you mean by tunnelling as i do have other scum reads. and also i havent been on you nearly as long as youve been on me. yada yada yada.
i scum read chris because he was being manipulative. that was correct, but apparently not a scum tell for chris. do we really need to talk about an irrelevant read from a different game?
as for what makes you so scummy this game, i definitely dont need to go into that again. please refer to previous posts.
and i cant really speak to what other players think. i know chris and seppel are townreading you. but chris hasnt even read the damn game.
i dont recall anyone else doing so, but others may be as well.
but you are currently tied for the most votes. so i dont really think the "everyone knows im town" card is going to work. especially when we dont know those players' alignments.
im going to go to bed and come back and talk to other people.
you may now have the last word.
Sorry, I have been having a hard time finding the motivation for this game.
Unvote Whoever, vote Tom. His "stream of consciousness" hasn't been doing a good job of following his actions. His firmness towards TS, but reluctance to vote towards anyone seems bleh.
I don't know why people are voting Zionite. He isn't a strong town read for me, but he isn't half as scummy as some of you lot.
Dota hasn't done much to make me feel better about him, but he doesn't feel as scummy.
Sir Chris makes me feel slightly better about the slot. I'll skim vanillaville though, just because I still can't shake Necarg.
Deal with it. Or better yet, how about you show me your amazing reason for voting Zionite? I don't seem to recall seeing that...
What bothers me about TS's vote is that if he had such a slam dunk of ZIonite in a lie, why would he not just post it here, and convince us to go after him? Zionite could do the same thing for the opposite reason, so it just reeks of laziness by all parties.
Hmm...that's a great question. I think one being scum goes a long way toward "town points" for the other, but I wouldn't go as far as to say "cleared". That's a dangerous trap for the analytical mind. You don't want to rule out something that's still very much on the table unless you have no doubts whatsoever.
It's also worth noting that with two factions, even if someone outs a scum in a way that would make it obvious that they were not part of that scum's team, they could still be part of the other team. It's next to impossible in this game to set up a "if X is scum, Y is almost certainly not scum" paradigm.
I'm behind so I know this has already been commented on, but I really dislike this kind of setting up. Even putting aside the fact that it simply doesn't work in a multi-scum game. It feel like Zionite is just being super lazy here, or is scum who momentarily forgot that there was another scum team out there.
Hmm...that's a great question. I think one being scum goes a long way toward "town points" for the other, but I wouldn't go as far as to say "cleared". That's a dangerous trap for the analytical mind. You don't want to rule out something that's still very much on the table unless you have no doubts whatsoever.
It's also worth noting that with two factions, even if someone outs a scum in a way that would make it obvious that they were not part of that scum's team, they could still be part of the other team. It's next to impossible in this game to set up a "if X is scum, Y is almost certainly not scum" paradigm.
this is the clearly correct answer. not sure if zionite missed it or is just trying to town clear one of them for reasons of his own.
You might want to go back and reread the quote from Zionite there, because the part I've highlighted seems to say the opposite of what you are now accusing him of. What made you think he was trying to town clear anyone?
This jumped out at me because of the odd way DoTArchon steps in to defend Zionite here. It's CLEAR from the post that Zionite is suggesting that a "scum" flip from TappingStones or myself = "Town points" for the other, notwithstanding the qualifier he threw in about the other not being "cleared." And it's wrong because of (1) as noted - multiple scum teams and (2) bad logic period.
@people with townreads on Wildfire: why? Please be specific. I saw a couple of people with Wildfire in their upper townreads, I think, and I can't even remember seeing Wildfire ever posting, or even being talked about all that much.
I don't remember, but there was definitely something. I'd have to go back and read it again to put it in words.
I have a positive initial reaction to Vaimes as replacement into the game.
I dislike how TappingStones keeps calling people LIARS. I am not sure I understand this particular accusation as it concerns Zionite.
That said: Xyre, Jobie, Zionite. All still seem good votes.
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Hmm...that's a great question. I think one being scum goes a long way toward "town points" for the other, but I wouldn't go as far as to say "cleared". That's a dangerous trap for the analytical mind. You don't want to rule out something that's still very much on the table unless you have no doubts whatsoever.
It's also worth noting that with two factions, even if someone outs a scum in a way that would make it obvious that they were not part of that scum's team, they could still be part of the other team. It's next to impossible in this game to set up a "if X is scum, Y is almost certainly not scum" paradigm.
this is the clearly correct answer. not sure if zionite missed it or is just trying to town clear one of them for reasons of his own.
You might want to go back and reread the quote from Zionite there, because the part I've highlighted seems to say the opposite of what you are now accusing him of. What made you think he was trying to town clear anyone?
This jumped out at me because of the odd way DoTArchon steps in to defend Zionite here. It's CLEAR from the post that Zionite is suggesting that a "scum" flip from TappingStones or myself = "Town points" for the other, notwithstanding the qualifier he threw in about the other not being "cleared." And it's wrong because of (1) as noted - multiple scum teams and (2) bad logic period.
It was less about defending Zionite and more about pointing out the error in Tom's post. I guess it does look like I'm defending Zionite, if you consider my discussion with TS earlier on this page, but there as well I'm just trying to point out a flawed argument. Seems to be a few where Zionite is concerned, need to reread him. Maybe I'm missing something.
What information did you gather from the reactions to your Tordeck vote?
w/r/t the bolded, I'm trying to account for the context. In a vacuum, sure, not wanting to totally clear people is great. And maybe if that was one of your earlier posts, I even would have townread you for it. But now it just looks tainted.
Well unfortunately no one asked me in RVS what I thought.
I found which players are vehemently against lynching solely based on PR. I thought I'd get more relationship info but I wasn't paying attention.
Basically the scales metaphor is about weighing my options in the event a lynch went down immediately. I have to assume that while I'm away anything could happen, so my vote is my lynch. If someone tilts the scales (aka looks scummier), I vote that option.
Still waiting on Zionite to fess up to his lie. He claims that I posted he was "lean town" and in the next post said he was "very lynchable". I can't find this. Where are these posts. 4TH TIME I've asked for Zionite to provide the posts in question. I haven't dealt with this much evasive behavior since I began playing Mafia. But as Zionite has claimed he gets run up in day one often I can totally understand why.
UNVOTE; VOTE:ZIONITE
Answer my question. Where are these posts you speak of?
To be fair, you never asked me any question. You just jumped straight into calling me a liar and never showed me what the hell you were talking about.
There are two interpretations of his logic: a towny one and a scummy one. I am inclined to lean more towards the scummy one because I haven't liked his posts throughout the game.
That's probably the result of confirmation bias, though. So I guess, in the end, it could just be null? Because, yes, I agree that people shouldn't be too quick/happy to clear others. A lot of it depends on circumstances, though. Interactions are never exactly alike and all that.
I'm curious as to what Zionite thinks of me, besides 'odd', since that isn't an alignment.
I think our playstyles are exactly the same. You came in and voted with little explanation, instead opting to wait until you are addressed. I do this to. This trait doesn't tell me much about alignment, but it does tell me what to expect. Your bait is something I do too (vote and wait for reaction), so I caught on quick. At this moment, I have you leaning town, but scum can scum hunt too in this game. Just because you post like me doesn't clear you.
You said you're down for his wagon, but have applied zero pressure.
i like my vote where it is, thank you very much. you are still by far the scummiest player.
You're so innocent Tom. You never answered S.C.'s rather strong question. Why are you under some idea that you can read people? You'd lived through exactly one night in your mafia career and were day killed by someone that didn't even suspect you as scum. He (and others wanted you dead because your play was so poor). You hounded S.C. and I the entire game and guess what...we were both town. Now I'm town again and S.C. hasn't done anything to break with the last town game I played with him.
You have no idea what a townread even looks like. What does a town player do Tom? Explain it to all of us please...with your vast knowledge.
What bothers me about TS's vote is that if he had such a slam dunk of ZIonite in a lie, why would he not just post it here, and convince us to go after him? Zionite could do the same thing for the opposite reason, so it just reeks of laziness by all parties.
Hmm...that's a great question. I think one being scum goes a long way toward "town points" for the other, but I wouldn't go as far as to say "cleared". That's a dangerous trap for the analytical mind. You don't want to rule out something that's still very much on the table unless you have no doubts whatsoever.
It's also worth noting that with two factions, even if someone outs a scum in a way that would make it obvious that they were not part of that scum's team, they could still be part of the other team. It's next to impossible in this game to set up a "if X is scum, Y is almost certainly not scum" paradigm.
I'm behind so I know this has already been commented on, but I really dislike this kind of setting up. Even putting aside the fact that it simply doesn't work in a multi-scum game. It feel like Zionite is just being super lazy here, or is scum who momentarily forgot that there was another scum team out there.
I would like to see what Taredas says on this matter.
Oh, Wildfire, I remembered now (as in I just went back to check).
You voted Nacho for his 'I'm town' declaration, and then put words in his mouth (saying he was excited to 'finally' be town, when really, he could just be happy to be town in a game where there's two chances to draw scum).
You don't have to draw scum several times to be excited to be town when that scumchain breaks. You can just be excited to be town in general. I prefer being town myself, it's a lot less stressful than trying to consistently fake being town.
Plus, I think you were focusing too much on something that ultimately didn't really matter.
And I don't really like the way you tried to claim your vote was RVS and based on a joke. OceanBlack asked you if you had a reason for your vote, and you provided one in a way that made it look serious. You voted for Nacho because he declared himself town, something you said he didn't do previously as either alignment, and you yourself imply that you think he did it because he rolled scum since he rolled town in his last handful of games. All of this indicates you had some thought/reasoning behind your vote, which means it's no longer something that can be passed off as a joke.
After that I don't remember much about your posts, so I questioned the townreads on you.
I'll admit I went too far down the rabbithole on Nacho. I chose him for RVS because of his "I'm town" post. "You know what you did" was definitely a joke though. I pushed on it because I found the town declaration to be weird, and as I said, out of character for him.
Again, it was ultimately meaningless because he's basically auto-town based on his ability
really thinking about zionite and chris right now. neither looking too good. probably do a quick reread with them in mind tonight.
that never really struck me as a slip. but EtR has done plenty of scummier things.
anywhere else youre considering putting your vote? id love to hear your reads.
I'm not really liking Zionite, especially with that whole "whoops forgot there were two scum teams" thing.
Seppel has me a little suspicious because he seems to actually be engaged in the game.
It's harder than normal to form scum-reads since even scum can genuinely scum-hunt.
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you don't just call someone a liar and not vote with it. A town mindset wouldn't say "you're lying but that doesn't mean you're scum". It sounds like a scum statement, because only scum would know the truth. If you're not lynching all liars, you're likely not town.
now i dont necessarily agree with this, but it is a thing you said so lets assume that you do.
but earlier in the game,
I'm feeling strongly that the one's talking over the last page (tappingstones, tomsloger, oceanblack) are reading town. There wasn't as much suspicious activity as there was egos clashing.
which was in response to that slapfight on page 3 in which tapping called oceanblack a liar no less than FIVE times without ever voting him.
was #327 a completely new revelation then? because im having trouble reconciling that otherwise.
and what casing have you done exactly?
you sure are critical of others' lack of cases for someone whos only case this game was a meta argument against necarg 6 pages ago.
i know youve barely been here, but it would be nice to see one from you on anyone.
Seppel has me a little suspicious because he seems to actually be engaged in the game.
seppel is one of the people in this game i cant quite pin down. what are you basing this on?
i guess it has to be meta, because engaged seems like a null read. but he also doesnt really seem that engaged to me.
seppel is one of the people in this game i cant quite pin down. what are you basing this on?
i guess it has to be meta, because engaged seems like a null read. but he also doesnt really seem that engaged to me.
Seppel is one of these oddball players. When he's town, he's generally flippant and entirely disengaged. When he's scum, he tends to be more engaged. It's not a 1:1 correlation, but there is some level of correlation there. Hence
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Is your case against him similar to mine or do you have some different reads on him?
He just dropped another solid scum tell that just makes me want to see what his alignment is. I think Tom's alignment gives us the most information heading into tomorrow, regardless of his actual flip.
V/LA until Monday And between now and US Thanksgiving I'll be limited in time commitment to this game.
Did you just seriously suggest killing someone regardless of their alignment is a good idea? And that's the best use of the lynch?
Unvote Necarg, Vote Jobie
The odds of getting it right day one are lower than most days. This is twisting what was said.
i actually think hypocritical is a town tell. shrug.
Not enough experience to know what WIFOM is...has enough experience to think hypocrisy is a towntell (THUS SELF-CLEARING HIMSELF). FAKE FAKE FAKE
Why aren't you voting Tom?
I was gonna unvote and vote Tom but EtR's "reads list" that is actually just based off the mood of the game shows me that my vote is well placed where it is. True story.
EtR has unjustified town reads on Tordeck, jobie, and Seppel. Scumreads Necarg's/Sir Chris but never attempts to interact with either. EtR is scum trying to go with the ebb and flow. I'm more than happy to vote...
EtR
tomsloger
DoT
These guys are town...
tordeck
anthony
Axelrod.
Aren't all lists based on the mood of the game to one degree or another? And how are you able to determine from my post that my reads are unjustified? Lastly, Sir Chris only just replaced in and I replaced in on the tail end of Necarg playing. Stop attempting to find issues that aren't there.
I was gonna unvote and vote Tom but EtR's "reads list" that is actually just based off the mood of the game shows me that my vote is well placed where it is. True story.
EtR has unjustified town reads on Tordeck, jobie, and Seppel. Scumreads Necarg's/Sir Chris but never attempts to interact with either. EtR is scum trying to go with the ebb and flow.
exactly. EtR is scum.
incidentally, the opposite of your statement is why xyre is so town.
I love that you agree with this post, but just several post earlier you agreed with my list with the exception of Xyre. You are flitting from one POV to another just as much as Antny was.
This has been easily the most suspect slot so far. OB's horrific play put him in a position for others to scrutinize him, but the problem is that he doesn't hold up to the scrutiny. #25 VOTES JOBIE and says WF is a good vote too. #26 confirms his vote is not RSV. #29 unvotes Jobie and naked votes GJ. (He's just looking to run someone up. Has no consideration of whether someone is actually scum, just wants to start a wagon.) #36 WF wisely points out OB saying scum is more likely to call out Nacho's announcment than town, but is still voting Jobie. (barn/ this) #76 Says GJ is trying to produce minimal content-scum motivated. Says Zionite is copying his read. Is evasive about axelrod's question. Tries to say it's scummy (this is the start of quite a few attacks where he says anyone who disagrees with him is scum). #87 Dodges Axelrod's question. Admits he hasn't answered the question. (Gives a bogus reason, check it out), again calls question scumy. #96 pointless post #98 links all of Tom's posts without any explanations. #101 Goes at Tom. Unvotes GJ VOTES TOM. Insults Tom's English based on paragraph spacing, capitalization, etc. #109 Very confrontational unvotes, now is on TS. (He's already voted how many people???) Essentially for asking him why he's attacking Tom's English and what mistakes he couldn't understand. #110 Admits he ignored info on Tom "for [his] own reasons". #111 Tom calls out OB for understanding yet saying he didn't understand. (it's unclear to all which posts were supposed to be "unclear/non-native") #112 Says TS is his top scum read.Accuses of "fanning the flames" (actually I was telling him to cut it out/asking what was unclear) #117 Tells me, If I disagreed with his post I shouldn't have commented. (WWHHAATT????) Makes up a wildly conspiratory post of TS's motives. (Is thinking from a scum mindset). #119 OB IMPLODES #120 continues implosion #122 Says Tom and I are opposite scum teams. #127 OB is getting zero support against me so lashes out at the player base. #132 Personal attacks against Tom and I. #149 replaces out. Says I am scum and Tom is a good lynch. Nacho is town. (duh)
Others also saw a scum slip but I think my case against him is solid enough without that. If you believe the scum slip then that's just icing on the cake for me. But I think this argument is pretty solid.
ETR/OceanBlack SCUM lynch or vig if you can.
Nacho- Currently town but I want more participation. We already have Nacho, Seppel, Wildfire, GJ and I to build a solid base around. I'm also feeling good about Jobie but need to see a lot more action and reads.
DOTA #81 Calls out OB on his strange defense. #105 Corretly calls out OB for reading too much into RVS. #107 (very careful)Reads OB as nretral #156 VOTES Tom "Something puts me off", "Gut read" (I DONT LIKE THIS) #303 admits he is too scared to do anything. His words! Town shouldn't be scared.
LEAN SCUM
Necarg #58 Asks a random question. Says he disagrees with GJ and that he has no clear reads. #69 Calls out IABM VOTES IABM. #95 Xyre calls out Necarg as classic meta lurking scum. Gives decent reasoning. #205 Tom is scum. Trying very hard to give minimal input and is a bit nervous IMO.
Lean Scum
Axelrod #32 Asks a pointless question. #56 Asks OB why Jobie was a better vote than wildfire? VOTES XYRE says because "voting someone who probably isn't scum" #80 Says xyre is playing both sides. Clearly demonstrates xyre's suspect idea. #82 Calls out OB on "fixation" comment and strange "Why is my vote a concern?" Points out hostility. Calls out OB's conspiracy theory. #139 Tells OB to chill. Says he's making a mountain out of a molehill. Says he doesn't think OB is scum. (HUH??)
Lean Town-He's just playing poorly. He sees a lot of the scummy play in OB but doesn't want to rock the boat. Timid town (or scum I can't be sure). I'll lean town till I see more.
Zionite #40 Naked VOTES AXELROD. Shows dislike for GJ's no lynch plan. #41 Says Nacho "im town" is not a tell. Wildfire has no case. #63 Says he's voting to "make the mod do more work" (BAD joke, worse vote) Quotes the xyre post about Necarg but doesn't explain. #159 townreads TS, Tom, OB. VOTES TORDECK #300 barns axelrod and votes me #306 asks Tom to defend me, doesn't want to look himself. Particularly bizarre because it's transparent that he doesn't care about the answer. Asking Tom to do work for him. BIZARRE.
SCUM
XYRE #47 votes IABM. Asks how much experience he has. (I hate this vote) #62 Says Necarg is scum. #73 naked votes Necarg. #148 Asks Necarg his opinion of Tom? (trying to gauge the wagon?) #167 reiterates he thinks Necarg and IABM are scum. #301 "likes axelrod's TS post" #321 admits his IABM angle is busted.
Has been a walking disaster most of this game begging for people to vote for him.
Lean Scum proceed with lynch, I will support.
Last scum is between IABM and Tom. We can find this out in short order.
Working through your post:
Lean scum
DoTArchon, Sir Chris(Necarg), Xyre
Scum
EtR(OB), Zionite
You say the last scum is between IMAB and Tom. What makes you so certain that there are 6 scum players?
That's an old post DOTA. I'm off IABM. I was confused by his early play and what his PR actually could do. I'm much more comfortable with him now. "Lean town". As I explained to Seppel before the Necarg read was an acceptance of meta. Seppel and I played together in Amyril Seat and caught him very early. Sir Chris has played the way I expect good town to play. He participates, makes solid points and clearly articulates himself. "Lean town". You are undetermined at the moment.
Xyre, Zionite, Etr and Tom are all fine votes as far as I'm concerned. Zionite looking worse and worse as the game progresses. Xyre has been scummy throughout. Etr has brought zero to the game besides inheriting OB's bad arguments and Tom is largely irrelevant, even as scum. I'll lynch him if I have the chance but he's likely to continue to give up his scummates as time goes on.
I'm going to post this, knowing that you will continue to ignore me. How do you make sense of those people in relation to each other from a scum perspective? If it's two teams, how would you divide them at this point?
Sorry that actually catching up took so long; I've just finished moving and am currently getting used to a first shift schedule as opposed to an overnight one (which means I'm working when I was sleeping and sleeping when I was working which is weird, to say that least).
I'm going to probably do this in chunks and then take a day to reread to make all the disjointed pieces make sense; keep your radios tuned to my frequency because stuff is finally happening here very very soon.
I'm not really liking Zionite, especially with that whole "whoops forgot there were two scum teams" thing.
Seppel has me a little suspicious because he seems to actually be engaged in the game.
It's harder than normal to form scum-reads since even scum can genuinely scum-hunt.
If anything, me forgetting about two scum teams means I'm not either of them. Yes this is self analysis to be taken as such, but I don't see how you come to the opposite conclusion.
you don't just call someone a liar and not vote with it. A town mindset wouldn't say "you're lying but that doesn't mean you're scum". It sounds like a scum statement, because only scum would know the truth. If you're not lynching all liars, you're likely not town.
now i dont necessarily agree with this, but it is a thing you said so lets assume that you do.
but earlier in the game,
I'm feeling strongly that the one's talking over the last page (tappingstones, tomsloger, oceanblack) are reading town. There wasn't as much suspicious activity as there was egos clashing.
which was in response to that slapfight on page 3 in which tapping called oceanblack a liar no less than FIVE times without ever voting him.
was #327 a completely new revelation then? because im having trouble reconciling that otherwise.
Yes there was, and here you have it: Post #300. It was the idea that TS specifically wasn't really doing any hunting, just pushing people's buttons.
Actually a pretty big fan of tomsloger's 131 where he encourages TS and OB to seek common ground in their scumread of him. I can see the perspective on this pretty easily; those two were producing a lot of toxicity at a pretty early stage in the game so it's a good mood to derail it as a person and as a townie. The problem comes when I imagine him posting that while he's playing scum for the first time, which means posting that requires him posting in the middle of a slapfight that really doesn't have anything to do with him (and is in fact taking attention away from him) and earnestly trying to derail it, which seems pretty unlikely to me.
159 talks about the {OB, Tom, TS} trio being all town - remember that defensive play is a more reliable indicator of town in multiball than offensive play. I am not 100% OB is scum, although I am leaning that way and am confident he isn't scum with either Tom or TS. Tom's reaction to the situation seemed pretty town while TS's reaction looks a lot along the lines of what I expect him to look like as town.
Am unsure where Necarg town-reads are coming from - do people (particularly Seppel) mind talking about those?
so we disagree on... xyre. and eachother i suppose.
i do find it odd that you asked about 3 specific reads and proceeded to agree with two of them.
Why is that odd tom?
well i can see being interested in any scum read that hasnt really been explained. and i can see being interested in a town read you dont agree with.
but why talk about shared town reads? what does that really do?
I love that you agree with this post, but just several post earlier you agreed with my list with the exception of Xyre. You are flitting from one POV to another just as much as Antny was.
this is actually the point i was making at the time. i, too, thought your list looked like someone making the least offensive T/S list.
No, his conclusion that he drew from it. I can't follow how he'd think I'm scum for forgetting about two scum teams and there was no other reasoning thrown out there. It's too opportunistic.
I don't have time for the PBPA to walk you through it, but I actually found nothing alarming about anything else Wildfire has posted. Seems I jumped the gun. unvote, Vote TappingStones
And I've caught up, bigger posts will be coming soon.
For now, my two focuses for the day are Huntzilla and the Sir Chris slot. Huntzilla made promises to catch up and never has delivered or done anything close to that. I've found he has a lot more trouble finding things to post as scum versus when he's town, and so his posting this game in falling in line pretty solidly to what I expect from him as scum.
Necarg's posting is scummy as all hell based on meta (with the basic underlying tell being rigid = scum, crazy = town) and am very confident the slot is town; Chris's push on DoT for self-awareness and saying he has habits doesn't come close at all to redeeming, wondering why on earth anyone is reading this slot as anything other than scum.
Off the top of my head, my townreads are:
-Tom: I don't think his approach to the OB/TS fight early game was an approach that he would take as town, and his behavior in the discussion with Seppel also looks insanely town. He's also been a huge presence again and I like the direction most of his scumhunting has taken. Tom is the only player I'd currently pardon if lynched.
-TS: Think TS looks incredibly town, have no idea what Zionite's on about.
-Xyre: Earlier posting was a lot better than recent posting, still happy with a townread here.
-EtR: Lean town based on OceanBlack's play, not confident in the read yet.
-GJ: Mostly based on early play, but recent posting isn't terrible although I don't really agree with the direction.
I'll work on getting a more in-depth readslist on the table as soon as possible, but the name on everyone's lips should be Sir Chris. I see a Zionite wagon forming, but I have absolutely no idea why so if someone could help me out with that I would appreciate it a lot.
Necarg's posting is scummy as all hell based on meta (with the basic underlying tell being rigid = scum, crazy = town) and am very confident the slot is town; Chris's push on DoT for self-awareness and saying he has habits doesn't come close at all to redeeming, wondering why on earth anyone is reading this slot as anything other than scum.
i just looked back at the ten posts necarg made this game.
now, i dont think 10 posts is even enough to display rigidity. but in addition, he actually changed his mind a couple of times.
if thats the meta, im saying necarg was more crazy than rigid.
For now, my two focuses for the day are Huntzilla and the Sir Chris slot. Huntzilla made promises to catch up and never has delivered or done anything close to that. I've found he has a lot more trouble finding things to post as scum versus when he's town, and so his posting this game in falling in line pretty solidly to what I expect from him as scum.
Necarg's posting is scummy as all hell based on meta (with the basic underlying tell being rigid = scum, crazy = town) and am very confident the slot is town; Chris's push on DoT for self-awareness and saying he has habits doesn't come close at all to redeeming, wondering why on earth anyone is reading this slot as anything other than scum.
Off the top of my head, my townreads are:
-Tom: I don't think his approach to the OB/TS fight early game was an approach that he would take as town, and his behavior in the discussion with Seppel also looks insanely town. He's also been a huge presence again and I like the direction most of his scumhunting has taken. Tom is the only player I'd currently pardon if lynched.
-TS: Think TS looks incredibly town, have no idea what Zionite's on about.
-Xyre: Earlier posting was a lot better than recent posting, still happy with a townread here.
-EtR: Lean town based on OceanBlack's play, not confident in the read yet.
-GJ: Mostly based on early play, but recent posting isn't terrible although I don't really agree with the direction.
I'll work on getting a more in-depth readslist on the table as soon as possible, but the name on everyone's lips should be Sir Chris. I see a Zionite wagon forming, but I have absolutely no idea why so if someone could help me out with that I would appreciate it a lot.
Good scum reads. You have EtR leaning town; did the EtR scum-slip from earlier factor into this?
Wait, is this Necarg the same Necarg who played in Bravely Default and blatantly bandwagoned every single Day? Gimme a sec.
...
It is. And his posts this game are...not as engaged, I think. And Sir Chris feels kind of coast-y (he did claim to be sick, though, blah). So far his posts consist of him:
> entering the game (null)
> telling us not to be afraid to pressure him (+town)
> posts some reads, focuses mostly on DoTA (and given that DoTA is new (?), this is kinda iffy)
> answers a question about the mindset of new players (null)
> says he's sick and it's affecting his gameplay, mostly a self-defense post (-town)
> a couple of easy posts (-town)
> post saying that he's still not caught up
> meta defenses, easy posts
> claims he's taking advantage of the long deadline to take the game slow
Overall feelings: don't like either of this slot's occupiers very much.
-Tom: I don't think his approach to the OB/TS fight early game was an approach that he would take as town, and his behavior in the discussion with Seppel also looks insanely town. He's also been a huge presence again and I like the direction most of his scumhunting has taken. Tom is the only player I'd currently pardon if lynched.
Based on the context of the rest of the paragraph I'm assuming the bolded was a typo? In any case Unvote
I'll reread Sir Chris and the little we have from Hunt when I get to work a bit later.
Is your case against him similar to mine or do you have some different reads on him?
He just dropped another solid scum tell that just makes me want to see what his alignment is. I think Tom's alignment gives us the most information heading into tomorrow, regardless of his actual flip.
V/LA until Monday And between now and US Thanksgiving I'll be limited in time commitment to this game.
Did you just seriously suggest killing someone regardless of their alignment is a good idea? And that's the best use of the lynch?
Unvote Necarg, Vote Jobie
The odds of getting it right day one are lower than most days. This is twisting what was said.
i actually think hypocritical is a town tell. shrug.
Not enough experience to know what WIFOM is...has enough experience to think hypocrisy is a towntell (THUS SELF-CLEARING HIMSELF). FAKE FAKE FAKE
Why aren't you voting Tom?
I was gonna unvote and vote Tom but EtR's "reads list" that is actually just based off the mood of the game shows me that my vote is well placed where it is. True story.
EtR has unjustified town reads on Tordeck, jobie, and Seppel. Scumreads Necarg's/Sir Chris but never attempts to interact with either. EtR is scum trying to go with the ebb and flow. I'm more than happy to vote...
EtR
tomsloger
DoT
These guys are town...
tordeck
anthony
Axelrod.
Aren't all lists based on the mood of the game to one degree or another? And how are you able to determine from my post that my reads are unjustified? Lastly, Sir Chris only just replaced in and I replaced in on the tail end of Necarg playing. Stop attempting to find issues that aren't there.
I was gonna unvote and vote Tom but EtR's "reads list" that is actually just based off the mood of the game shows me that my vote is well placed where it is. True story.
EtR has unjustified town reads on Tordeck, jobie, and Seppel. Scumreads Necarg's/Sir Chris but never attempts to interact with either. EtR is scum trying to go with the ebb and flow.
exactly. EtR is scum.
incidentally, the opposite of your statement is why xyre is so town.
I love that you agree with this post, but just several post earlier you agreed with my list with the exception of Xyre. You are flitting from one POV to another just as much as Antny was.
This has been easily the most suspect slot so far. OB's horrific play put him in a position for others to scrutinize him, but the problem is that he doesn't hold up to the scrutiny. #25 VOTES JOBIE and says WF is a good vote too. #26 confirms his vote is not RSV. #29 unvotes Jobie and naked votes GJ. (He's just looking to run someone up. Has no consideration of whether someone is actually scum, just wants to start a wagon.) #36 WF wisely points out OB saying scum is more likely to call out Nacho's announcment than town, but is still voting Jobie. (barn/ this) #76 Says GJ is trying to produce minimal content-scum motivated. Says Zionite is copying his read. Is evasive about axelrod's question. Tries to say it's scummy (this is the start of quite a few attacks where he says anyone who disagrees with him is scum). #87 Dodges Axelrod's question. Admits he hasn't answered the question. (Gives a bogus reason, check it out), again calls question scumy. #96 pointless post #98 links all of Tom's posts without any explanations. #101 Goes at Tom. Unvotes GJ VOTES TOM. Insults Tom's English based on paragraph spacing, capitalization, etc. #109 Very confrontational unvotes, now is on TS. (He's already voted how many people???) Essentially for asking him why he's attacking Tom's English and what mistakes he couldn't understand. #110 Admits he ignored info on Tom "for [his] own reasons". #111 Tom calls out OB for understanding yet saying he didn't understand. (it's unclear to all which posts were supposed to be "unclear/non-native") #112 Says TS is his top scum read.Accuses of "fanning the flames" (actually I was telling him to cut it out/asking what was unclear) #117 Tells me, If I disagreed with his post I shouldn't have commented. (WWHHAATT????) Makes up a wildly conspiratory post of TS's motives. (Is thinking from a scum mindset). #119 OB IMPLODES #120 continues implosion #122 Says Tom and I are opposite scum teams. #127 OB is getting zero support against me so lashes out at the player base. #132 Personal attacks against Tom and I. #149 replaces out. Says I am scum and Tom is a good lynch. Nacho is town. (duh)
Others also saw a scum slip but I think my case against him is solid enough without that. If you believe the scum slip then that's just icing on the cake for me. But I think this argument is pretty solid.
ETR/OceanBlack SCUM lynch or vig if you can.
Nacho- Currently town but I want more participation. We already have Nacho, Seppel, Wildfire, GJ and I to build a solid base around. I'm also feeling good about Jobie but need to see a lot more action and reads.
DOTA #81 Calls out OB on his strange defense. #105 Corretly calls out OB for reading too much into RVS. #107 (very careful)Reads OB as nretral #156 VOTES Tom "Something puts me off", "Gut read" (I DONT LIKE THIS) #303 admits he is too scared to do anything. His words! Town shouldn't be scared.
LEAN SCUM
Necarg #58 Asks a random question. Says he disagrees with GJ and that he has no clear reads. #69 Calls out IABM VOTES IABM. #95 Xyre calls out Necarg as classic meta lurking scum. Gives decent reasoning. #205 Tom is scum. Trying very hard to give minimal input and is a bit nervous IMO.
Lean Scum
Axelrod #32 Asks a pointless question. #56 Asks OB why Jobie was a better vote than wildfire? VOTES XYRE says because "voting someone who probably isn't scum" #80 Says xyre is playing both sides. Clearly demonstrates xyre's suspect idea. #82 Calls out OB on "fixation" comment and strange "Why is my vote a concern?" Points out hostility. Calls out OB's conspiracy theory. #139 Tells OB to chill. Says he's making a mountain out of a molehill. Says he doesn't think OB is scum. (HUH??)
Lean Town-He's just playing poorly. He sees a lot of the scummy play in OB but doesn't want to rock the boat. Timid town (or scum I can't be sure). I'll lean town till I see more.
Zionite #40 Naked VOTES AXELROD. Shows dislike for GJ's no lynch plan. #41 Says Nacho "im town" is not a tell. Wildfire has no case. #63 Says he's voting to "make the mod do more work" (BAD joke, worse vote) Quotes the xyre post about Necarg but doesn't explain. #159 townreads TS, Tom, OB. VOTES TORDECK #300 barns axelrod and votes me #306 asks Tom to defend me, doesn't want to look himself. Particularly bizarre because it's transparent that he doesn't care about the answer. Asking Tom to do work for him. BIZARRE.
SCUM
XYRE #47 votes IABM. Asks how much experience he has. (I hate this vote) #62 Says Necarg is scum. #73 naked votes Necarg. #148 Asks Necarg his opinion of Tom? (trying to gauge the wagon?) #167 reiterates he thinks Necarg and IABM are scum. #301 "likes axelrod's TS post" #321 admits his IABM angle is busted.
Has been a walking disaster most of this game begging for people to vote for him.
Lean Scum proceed with lynch, I will support.
Last scum is between IABM and Tom. We can find this out in short order.
Working through your post:
Lean scum
DoTArchon, Sir Chris(Necarg), Xyre
Scum
EtR(OB), Zionite
You say the last scum is between IMAB and Tom. What makes you so certain that there are 6 scum players?
That's an old post DOTA. I'm off IABM. I was confused by his early play and what his PR actually could do. I'm much more comfortable with him now. "Lean town". As I explained to Seppel before the Necarg read was an acceptance of meta. Seppel and I played together in Amyril Seat and caught him very early. Sir Chris has played the way I expect good town to play. He participates, makes solid points and clearly articulates himself. "Lean town". You are undetermined at the moment.
Xyre, Zionite, Etr and Tom are all fine votes as far as I'm concerned. Zionite looking worse and worse as the game progresses. Xyre has been scummy throughout. Etr has brought zero to the game besides inheriting OB's bad arguments and Tom is largely irrelevant, even as scum. I'll lynch him if I have the chance but he's likely to continue to give up his scummates as time goes on.
I'm going to post this, knowing that you will continue to ignore me. How do you make sense of those people in relation to each other from a scum perspective? If it's two teams, how would you divide them at this point?
Good question. I'm not sure I can reconcile who is on which scum team at the moment(should I be able to?). I tell you what, if I'm still standing on day two I'll take up this question and see if I can find things that might imply relationships. Right now the game feels really messy. There are people I feel are scummy and others I feel as town. But I've never played with multiple teams, in fact I've only played 3-4 games period.
I'm gonna go against my better judgement here and listen to Nacho. He's impressed me with his reads when I've played with him and I have him as town. I'm going to put Tom as lean town. It's possible a lot of my dislike for his slot is based on his poor play. I'm willing to accept that I might be trying to punish him and force him to play better. I'm off him for the time.
Does anyone want to disagree with me on Zionite, Xyre, or Etr?
I also like Nacho reminding me about Huntzilla. In Predator mafia he was very active in day one getting in slapfights and become volatile and he was town by the way. I want to see some Huntzilla content and I want to see some more GJ content. I have GJ as town but it seems like he's mostly checking in to criticize others and not really make many points of his own. He made a comment on laziness which seems to be more "pot meet kettle" than anything else.
Wait, is this Necarg the same Necarg who played in Bravely Default and blatantly bandwagoned every single Day? Gimme a sec.
...
It is. And his posts this game are...not as engaged, I think. And Sir Chris feels kind of coast-y (he did claim to be sick, though, blah). So far his posts consist of him:
> entering the game (null)
> telling us not to be afraid to pressure him (+town)
> posts some reads, focuses mostly on DoTA (and given that DoTA is new (?), this is kinda iffy)
> answers a question about the mindset of new players (null)
> says he's sick and it's affecting his gameplay, mostly a self-defense post (-town)
> a couple of easy posts (-town)
> post saying that he's still not caught up
> meta defenses, easy posts
> claims he's taking advantage of the long deadline to take the game slow
Overall feelings: don't like either of this slot's occupiers very much.
I was about to ask why you changed your thought process from Necarg to Chris but then I realized they're the same slot.
I will be much more active/caught up starting tomorrow. Get hyped.
btw to vaimes: what are 'easy posts.' I've never heard the term.
Oh also Nacho I like how you think I need to "redeem" my player slot. You so cray.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
Zionite hasn't done anything to hit my radar. Justify what he has done to hit yours.
Including yourself.
I don't know which two posts they are referring to, and even if I did, I don't fully understand their view. What should have happened was TS goes "here are these two posts, here is why zionite is scum." Or Zionite goes "Here are these posts, this is what they meant" (I think further down, someone did it so I will take a look in a second).
Quote from Tom »
and what casing have you done exactly?
you sure are critical of others' lack of cases for someone whos only case this game was a meta argument against necarg 6 pages ago.
i know youve barely been here, but it would be nice to see one from you on anyone.
I made a pretty good case about why Necarg is scum this game. I pointed out several scummish things, including fishing on Tordeck, his inconsistency on how he viewed my attempt for a no-lynch. The meta part of True Name was simply the neat little ribbon on top. Then, Necarg replaced out, and Chris has come in. Please explain how that was merely a "meta argument".
Quote from Nacho »
Necarg's posting is scummy as all hell based on meta (with the basic underlying tell being rigid = scum, crazy = town) and am very confident the slot is town; Chris's push on DoT for self-awareness and saying he has habits doesn't come close at all to redeeming, wondering why on earth anyone is reading this slot as anything other than scum.
Can you clarify this? It sounds like you are reading Necarg as very confidently as town, but confused why Chris could read as anything other than scum?
I can't disagree with you more on Tom. Either today or tomorrow, I'll try to do somewhat of a case. If I can't convince you, I'll look back at Necarg/Chris, and maybe Dota.
I will be much more active/caught up starting tomorrow. Get hyped.
btw to vaimes: what are 'easy posts.' I've never heard the term.
Oh also Nacho I like how you think I need to "redeem" my player slot. You so cray.
Posts that are just there to be there. Asking/answering easy/mechanical questions, fluff, repeated 'I'm still catching up' posts, going off on random tangents, extensive meta talk, and so on.
If random tangents and extensive meta talk are scum tells now I think I might need to retire.
(+1 easy post)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
-Tom: I don't think his approach to the OB/TS fight early game was an approach that he would take as town, and his behavior in the discussion with Seppel also looks insanely town. He's also been a huge presence again and I like the direction most of his scumhunting has taken. Tom is the only player I'd currently pardon if lynched.
Based on the context of the rest of the paragraph I'm assuming the bolded was a typo? In any case Unvote
I'll reread Sir Chris and the little we have from Hunt when I get to work a bit later.
I've iso'd Necarg/Sir Chris and Huntzilla, the former I'm just not seeing it, and the latter hasn't posted nearly enough to work with. Tempted to vote for Huntzilla to try and pry him out if the woodwork.
Iso'd a few other players to see if anything stood out. I really don't like how Jobie has approached the game so far, I started pulling out quotes to put together a case and then found this:
You will concede, I assume, that your opening posts of the game were uninspiring. We have (1) a random vote, designated as such; (2) a claim of limited access because of work; and (3) the oddly ranting post I quoted above.
We then have your first (and one of only two, I believe) post of any substance at all, @ #170. Here, you do that thing that scum do, which is ask a bunch of random questions to people in an effort to look like you are trying to scum-hunt, but the questions are weak, and nothing ever gets followed up on, which is a big red flag that you didn't actually care about the questions to begin with. You also do the scum thing of calling out other people without actually explaining why (here, your "strike one" comments about two different people. This post is mostly a bunch of nothing dressed up to try and look like something.
Then, there's your second post of any substance @ #347. Here you give your "catch-up" notes. Once again you give "strikes" to people without actually saying why or what for. You weigh on on TL vs. TappingStones to essentially accuse TL of misrepping in his description of how Tapping played in another game (Predator). You then proceed to immediately undercut your own position by apparently acknowledging that Tapping is playing differently, but saying you can't tell if it's because he's scum or not. You say you don't like any of the current wagons but you don't "have enough information" to start one of your own. You then proceed to (hypocritically, I would say) call out some other people for lurking and/or not contributing.
The rest of your game looks mainly like bandwagon voting. Necarg because of something GJ said. Now Xyre because "gut."
So, am I wrong? You disagree with my assessment? By all means, please explain to me how Townie you have been this game.
This sums up pretty much everything I wanted to say/ask Jobie up to that point. Then these two posts came up:
He just dropped another solid scum tell that just makes me want to see what his alignment is. I think Tom's alignment gives us the most information heading into tomorrow, regardless of his actual flip.
Vote: Jobie
Trying to garner support from players to lynch someone without a warranted reason(other than he annoyed you in another game)seems scummy. Can you elaborate on the "solid scum slip"? And why his flip, regardless of alignment, would be the most informative?
On Zionite forgetting that there are two scumteams:
I could definitely see that as something scum would be more likely to forget than town. Scum typically don't think about other scumteams, whereas I think town would be hyper aware of both? Because we're honest to god paranoid of people not being cleared a la genuine scumhunting and looking unaligned with flipped scum and stuff.
I don't want to put a lot of stock into this, just more of a passing 'vaguely do not like' thought. Anyone else want to chime in on this?
You don't want to rule out something that's still very much on the table unless you have no doubts whatsoever.
is indicative of scum, since scum are (typically) the only ones in the know and therefore have no doubts about alignments. It just sounds really...predatory coming from him.
Okay, we're definitely stagnating here, and it feels like were just starting to go around in circles. I'm as guilty as the next of not pushing on anyone harder. So, it's time to fish or cut bait.
Xyre
Jobie
Zionite
Everybody pick one. Who is the most likely scum?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
[b]@Tapping[/b] can you arrange 354 into an ordered scum list so it's clear what your reads are, cheers.
Very lynchable:
ETR
Necarg
XYRE
Zionite
Leanscum:
Tomsloger
DOTA
IABM
List is pretty fluid though considering this is day one.
@Antny-What do you thing of my reads?
It strikes me that you’ve just taken everyone that is generally suspected and sorted them into piles. Feels a little like you don’t want to rock the boat.
quote from="Antny223 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/645040-mafia-classic-wolves-vs-mafia-day-1-blood-moon?comment=356"][b]@Tapping[/b] can you arrange 354 into an ordered scum list so it's clear what your reads are, cheers.[/quote]When have you ever cared as much as you're caring now?[/quote]
Is this a serious question or Seppel-babbel?
Also taking note that TS didn't suspect me until I voted for him. He has me in his "Lean Town" category then places me in "Very Lynchable" list in the next post. TS is not looking any better, even with the nice content posts.
Except he didn’t. Considering that 357 was him cleaning up 354, how do you not get at this point that he’s calling you scum (hence the capitalised SCUM under your name in 354).
And ironically enough, you’ve managed to convince me to agree with TS here.
The gunsmith part is irrelevant to the conversation at this point. My concern is that this post does not have any reason for voting or he's attempting to use his claim as his reasoning for voting me. I'm attempting to clarify and hold someone accountable for their vote.
EtR you've played enough mafia games now to know that voting without reason it is pretty common - especially on page 1.
True, and he should be willing to say it, if that is in fact what it was.
Does he have to?
I mean really, does he have to tell you that his vote was a red hot, slam dunk, scumread?
I have no reason not to believe him. And more importantly why the hell did you not look up those roles. It took me like 10 second to find them on the mafiascum wiki (so I guess maybe like a minute tops on google).
You were thorough in your case on imab and didn't even have time for that.
Now at least I can certain your talking crap. Back on the wagon I go.
vote Tomslogger
So you're voting Tom because he didn't look something up? You're hopping to where ever you think something will catch fire with weak reasoning.
[b]Vote: Antny223[/b] [/quote]
Well that’s half of what I said. The other half is, well you quoted it so I assume you would have read it.
and what the hell is the point of looking up what gunsmith and seer do? hes either lying or not. and if he is telling the truth, he could still be scum, he might survive to use them, he might get useful information, he might share it with us.
The fact you didn't look it up is what shows me you don't care. If you don't know what the roles do, how are you meant to know if he's lying or not. Plus if you want to lynch, wouldn't you want to know if your about lynch a powerful role.
Furthermore certain roles would be less likely to be scum. You can't possible work that out without knowing what the roles do.
i dont care. i get that roles are powerful.
but this bull***** about him being town confirmed by claiming is not really acceptable to me. especially because his reason for claiming was "because WIFOM"
he even says we dont know if its true or not!
i never gave a crap about his claim. its how he reacted to it.
That’s not the point. You can’t be thorough at casing someone and ignore something so central to their play. It is impossible to have formed an opinion on imab without considering the role, and that’s impossible if you don’t know what the role does.
Good News: Sir Chris is in the game
Bad News: He's replacing a player a lot of us thought was scum and now we have to throw that read out the window for the short term.
[b]Unvote[/b]
Why? If Necarg is scum then Chris is surely the last player you want in a scumslot.
I owe my quote wall, I know. Still catching up, but first question that caught me right away is for Sir Chris.
Why can't DoTA's attributes just be because he is a noob? Why does it have to make him noob scum? Why does his disingenuous behavior automatically make him scum, and not just a new town scared to get lynched? Same question, phrased several ways...
Running out of time and energy. I have made it through page 7. I have included the quotes I plan on commenting on when I get back. I should have time tomorrow, but I don't want to hold back any longer since the wall has promised a while now.
So, go ahead and peruse the quotes if you feel like... commentary to come
Iso's constant push for massclaims day 1 and 2, I really want to stick it to him and do the polar oppisite of pouring information into the thread, by holding it.
I have a reason to believe the town has a ton of power, due to their being two scum groups. I am also aware of what could happen if it would succeed and who would or wouldn't be targeted. On top of all that, there is a chance that a cross kill or two may happen.
I wouldn't say Iso, as a mod, pushes for day 1/2 massclaims. In my experience, he always provides the scum team with reliable fake-claims, at least flavor-wise if nothing else, and his role assignments tend to bend the usual paradigms too.
But none of this really has anything to do with wanting a No-Lynch vote.
I didn't like his response to DoT's question, seemed fake.
I have no interest in no lynching because "there could be crosskills, we have a lot of power, stick it to Iso". Having a town directed kill is a benefit to town, and lynching during the day doesn't make crosskills less likely and it doesn't mean we can't use the power that we have.
However, don't really think Gentleman Johnny is scum despite pushing his crazy-town case; he's putting himself out there quite a bit by pushing said crazy-town case and I don't actually believe that him as scum believes he can manipulate the town into no lynching, so.
Wildfire, your case on me is "you did something you didn't do in other games" which is silly, but also puts more depth to your initial vote than I suspected it to have.
Town reads thus far in order of strength are Ocean, Johnny, Wildfire.
I could also vote Jobie for a wet noodle opening, but prefer voting Tom.
I am a town governor. I can overturn a lynch within a day; this means that my presence can be proven by a twilight period (I assume?); if j decide to overturn the lynch, there will be a no lynch. I am claiming now because there are three ways that governor can be played effectively IMO:
1) Ignore the power, draw the kill - seems the most reasonable option, but I'm not really too concerned about getting shot
2) Try to overturn a lynch where scum are quickhammering - Bad option since it can only be done in MyLo and I don't really expect to live that long - if I do end up in MyLo, will still be taking away scum's ability to quickhammer which is useful enough.
3) Claim outright, announce townreads beforehand- I plan to be extremely transparent with my townreads and who I'm protecting and will be reasonable enough in discussing reasoning. This means that scum, for the most part, won't be able to push through terrible mislynches, it means I have a little extra power in keeping the town on track, and it means that you should reasonably be able to slot me as town since my power is confirmable and far too powerful in scum hands (it would be far more beneficial for me to govern scumbuddies or random townies than it would be for me to play for towncred, especially jn a two scumteam game).
I'm on my phone and walking now, will expand more on this if needed later.
I am a town governor. Town governor prevents players from getting lynched during the day, If someone is lynched during the day and I want to stop their lynch, they won't be flipped and the game will go to night.
The advantage of claiming this power is that I actually get to use it as town. There is no utility in disagreeing with a lynch and having the town no lynch as a result. There is utility in vocally disagreeing with a lynch beforehand and having the power to push the town to no lynch instead.
The other advantage of this claim is that my power is too powerful in scum hands for me to be scum; if I were actually scum, the benefit of forcing town to take two days to lynch scum suspects and essentially giving both teams double kills when I want to or simply making all scumbuddies one-shot unlynchable.
It is a super town role, for reasons stated. Scum being able to mess with the lynch is seriously ridiculous, and Nacho wouldn't false claim a role that can easily be proved.
also, ive been led to believe that gaming the setup is a losing proposition, but does anyone think that the werewolf team may have the ability to recruit/infect/whatever you want to call it?
that possibility really makes me hate the proposition of not lynching (be it by getting on GJ's no lynch wagon or by nacho blocking the lynch)
I disagree that Jobie's post was null and I deliberately phrased my first post in a way to make it clear that I wasn't RVS voting Jobie. I never RVS vote but in the past, people tended to assume that my early naked votes were RVS so I often had to clarify that all my votes were serious.
The fact that Jobie chose to "clearly label" his vote as RVS is itself a minor scumtell. He's trying to avoid responsibility for casting the vote by taking an overly neutral stance. There are several useful things he could have done with his first post in the game. He could have voted someone he knew in order to facilitate an interaction that would help him read them. He could have commented on the only notable thing that happened thus far in the game (Nacho saying he's town rather than just confirming). He could have voted without clarifying that it was RVS thus instigating queries and discussion to push the game forward. He did none of that and chose the safest play that a player could possibly make: an RVS post with clear LABEL tacked on suggesting to us all that that was an RVS vote and he's not to blame for any blowback or discussion that could possibly result from it. That looks like squirmy scum trying to fly under the radar.
^This looks like you're reading way too much into the very first post of the game...
@Tom: My argument is that I'm town because my role is too powerful for scum; the power to force town to use multiple lynches in an attempt to kill my scumbuddies is extremely overpowered. Do you disagree with that?
I think it would be naive for anyone to just take your word for it. While the role does seem overpowered in the hands of the mafia, we know nothing yet about the setup of this game. Just off the top of my head:
[b][Random speculation that should not be taken seriously][/b]
1) Town:12 Mafia:3 Werewolves:3 - The scum teams are each playing a game of 15v3.
2) Town:14 Mafia:2 Werewolves:2 - Seems like town is incredibly powerful in this setup, so maybe give scum powerful roles they wouldn't normally have access to.
3) Town:14 Mafia:3 Werewolves:1 - Start with 1 wolf and give the alpha wolf the infect ability.
[b][/Random speculation that should not be taken seriously][/b]
I'm not trying to start a debate as to the setup, I just think that until we know more we should be careful about blindly believing that someone's role is indicative of their alignment.
[b]IGMEOY[/b] Nachos. Your role only gets you so far, your actions will provide the proof.
^This looks like you're reading way too much into the very first post of the game...
I love that some people talk about RVS like it is some sort of "safe haven" when nothing you do can be questioned. Personally, I find that line of thinking lazy, noobish, garbage. Reads can be formed as early as post one.
You've been very neutral in your assessment of me. What does the fact that I'm reading a lot into the first post of the game tell you about my alignment?
I didn't know whether tom was a native speaker or not. If he's isn't, that would have been fine but if he is, I suggested that he be clearer in his posts.
What scum motivation do you see in being confronational? Why is a passing remark about tomsloger of more interest to you than a seven point case? It looks like you are trying to fan the flames by squinting to find "insults" whereas if you cared about finding my alignment, you'd be focusing more on the game relevant content that I've made in that post.
[b]Unvote: tomsloger
Vote: TappingStones[/b]
I don't buy this. He's shown nothing that would lead any sane person to believe he is a non-native speaker. I live in China and deal with non-native English speakers on a daily basis (who come from all over the world) I don't see any reasonable way for you to make this suggestion without trying to be insulting. I'll also address the posts which are further down the line as I don't want to double post.
I never mentioned any scum motivations. I'm just curious on your behavior as I've already explained. The "fanning the flames" comment is bizarre. I clearly showed that I wanted you to stop, hence my comments that if you can't understand my English I would use simpler words. YOur attitude is very relevant to your alignment. YOur currently the only player that seems to be reacting with such hostility and I really want to know why. Maybe it's something that will help me clear you as town later, maybe it will lead to you being caught as scum. It's presently unclear.
Then you make the weird post about me not commenting on you not commenting. Huh? I suggested you check out his last game. If you do great, if you don't then that's just less data for you to work with. You're certainly not required to do so. I wasn't waiting on you to give me feedback. Strange...
Basically you lied when you said that you weren't sure Tom was a native speaker because it was quite obvious that you were trying to be hostile, which is all well and good, but it didn't get by me and then your OMGUS vote on me didn't do you any favors. I picture you nervously at the keyboard, typing without contemplation with shaky hands...and I want to know WHY? What is the motivation?
Wow, I can't believe someone is this obviously scummy. Usually, scum try to cover up their tracks and not try to be obvious. I just hope the playerlist is good enough to recognize that we have a pretty clear cut case here because the only way TappingStones doesn't insta-lynched is if the town is bad beyond belief.
The fact that Jobie chose to "clearly label" his vote as RVS is itself a minor scumtell. He's trying to avoid responsibility for casting the vote by taking an overly neutral stance. There are several useful things he could have done with his first post in the game. He could have voted someone he knew in order to facilitate an interaction that would help him read them. He could have commented on the only notable thing that happened thus far in the game (Nacho saying he's town rather than just confirming). He could have voted without clarifying that it was RVS thus instigating queries and discussion to push the game forward. He did none of that and chose the safest play that a player could possibly make: an RVS post with clear LABEL tacked on suggesting to us all that that was an RVS vote and he's not to blame for any blowback or discussion that could possibly result from it. That looks like squirmy scum trying to fly under the radar.
Well, thank you for answering. I declare this to be a very severe case of Mountain -> Molehill. I prescribe you one chill pill.
@Xyre: trapping? Or something else.
I have an issue with Tordeck, in that he's acting like he's got a posting restriction, but one of his posts was "Yo Vanilla." Which suggests he's also claiming Vanilla Town. (1) Personally, I would never claim "vanilla" town if I had a posting restriction. Maybe that's just me, but that wouldn't feel right. But also (2) Claiming Vanilla Town (i.e. no positive abilities) for no reason is a terrible idea, especially if you do, in fact, have a posting restriction.
But that's fine. You're probably scum as well and if not, you're pretty terrible at this game. I'll just wait for the better players to show up and quickvote the hell out of this dude.
But that's fine. You're probably scum as well and if not, you're pretty terrible at this game. I'll just wait for the better players to show up and quickvote the hell out of this dude.
You would seriously benefit from a course in logic. You do know that personal attacks and profanity don't make your case any stronger and suggest that your argument is void of meaning right?
I think he's running a gambit badly. Since I doubt Iso would put in a doctor who can block all kills aimed at his target each night (instead of just one), since that could throw the game hopelessly out of wack, claiming an investigative role is asking to get murdered tonight if it's true. Hence, I don't think it's true.
I assume if he's alive tomorrow morning, he's going to say "oh I got roleblocked soz" and we'll be in the same position we're in right now. So I'd sooner shake him upside-down and see if scum tells start falling out.
I dislike how you are kind of playing both sides here. You say you have voted the claimed cop role because you think it's some kind of gambit. Because if he's telling the truth he's just going to get killed. Except, of course, he could be protected, so you kind of head that idea off by suggesting that both scum groups would try to kill him, and assume any doctor role wouldn't protect against that, so it's still a bad idea. And then, if he doesn't die, you are already assuming he'll claim RB (which, gee, if the scum have a RBer, they could, in fact, totally RB him) and, therefore he won't be able to "prove it" and is still scum.
Like. you have created a no-win situation here based on the (very faulty) premise, that no one would ever claim an investigative role out of the blue. Which you ought to know just isn't the case.
This is a good post by Axelrod, but Xyre is pretty much inviting himself to be attacked.
also, ive been led to believe that gaming the setup is a losing proposition, but does anyone think that the werewolf team may have the ability to recruit/infect/whatever you want to call it?
that possibility really makes me hate the proposition of not lynching (be it by getting on GJ's no lynch wagon or by nacho blocking the lynch)
Looking forward to this info. Also tom is probably not werewolf.
The best way to form reads is proactively. The best way to get others to produce content is by producing content yourself.
Not answering other's questions is good and well, but electing instead to do nothing is a pretty poor compromise.
I expected blowback from people saying my claim is stupid; "early claims are bad" is a pretty common line of thought, but no one's actually stated why they felt my claim was bad, so my viewpoint on it hasn't really changed. Do you think my claim was bad?
I also understand you dislike the use of my power in general, but do you think my claim is more likely to come from scum or town? Why?
What do you think of Xyre?
forming reads proactively? now i'm really worried about your power. if you arent forming your reads reactively, what the hell are you doing?
what questions have i missed answering?
i dont have a particular read on you either way. if i had to guess now, i would say town thats likely to muck up the game. but i also think you might be mayor of avabruck
xyre has not looked great, mostly just attacking and name calling without showing his work. but he certainly doesnt look as bad as imabusinessman or rodemy.
that said, i dont think anyone has said enough to really warrant being sure about them in any way. i get that absolute statements can provoke reactions in a way that waffling can't, but the only ones that are actually certain of anything yet are scum.
Are you voting anyone yet? If not, please vote. Let me see your mind in action.
@Tom: My argument is that I'm town because my role is too powerful for scum; the power to force town to use multiple lynches in an attempt to kill my scumbuddies is extremely overpowered. Do you disagree with that?
Instead of hitting preview, I accidentally hit submit. I don't want to quote them all again so I'll lay out what I don't understand here:
1. Your first post to Nacho is pointless. You suggest that his claim is only useful if he's scum without directly calling him scum. You state the obvious: that a town-directed kill of town may not be beneficial.
2. I have no idea what the heck you are talking about with the WIFOM point.
3. You state that your job as town is to scumhunt. Is there a reason you're just spouting theory?
4. You tell Nacho that many people think he's dumb. What does that have to do with anything? The way you are asking the question also looks like you are tip-toeing around him.
5. You spread random seeds of paranoia about the werewolves potentially recruiting and tie it back to GentlemanJohnny in a ridiculously roundabout manner.
6. I don't understand your townread on Nacho or scumreads on Xyr, Ima, and Rodemy.
7. The "never fear, I will spam again" line is terrible because if you are town who thinks it's best to sit back and observe, why not justify it rather than molding your playstyle to kowtow to someone annoyance with you?
Going through all of that stuff, I actually prefer this vote.
[b]Unvote: GentlemanJohnny
Vote: tomsloger[/b]
Also, I realized that part of the reason I've been skimming over your posts is your lack of proper punctuation, paragraph spacing, and capitalization which makes your posts difficult and tedious to understand. If English is genuinely not your first language, I'll put in the effort to understand you but if you are deliberately doing this as some kind of "internet speak," please stop, it is annoying.
@Oceanblack-you are unnecessarily confrontational. Any reason for that? Nothing in Tom's post has shown any indication that he is a non-native speaker. Your insult is thinly veiled and tacky. In general your posts feel pushed and I'd like an explanation why? If you have trouble understanding my English I can use simpler words, don't worry!
I didn't know whether tom was a native speaker or not. If he's isn't, that would have been fine but if he is, I suggested that he be clearer in his posts.
What scum motivation do you see in being confronational? Why is a passing remark about tomsloger of more interest to you than a seven point case? It looks like you are trying to fan the flames by squinting to find "insults" whereas if you cared about finding my alignment, you'd be focusing more on the game relevant content that I've made in that post.
[b]Unvote: tomsloger
Vote: TappingStones[/b]
I find myself liking OceanBlack. He's a jerk but I don't think he's scum.
Wow, I can't believe someone is this obviously scummy. Usually, scum try to cover up their tracks and not try to be obvious. I just hope the playerlist is good enough to recognize that we have a pretty clear cut case here because the only way TappingStones doesn't insta-lynched is if the town is bad beyond belief.
I've been wrong on TS once before. Giving the benefit of the doubt, but I want to see a vote.
The fact that Jobie chose to "clearly label" his vote as RVS is itself a minor scumtell. He's trying to avoid responsibility for casting the vote by taking an overly neutral stance. There are several useful things he could have done with his first post in the game. He could have voted someone he knew in order to facilitate an interaction that would help him read them. He could have commented on the only notable thing that happened thus far in the game (Nacho saying he's town rather than just confirming). He could have voted without clarifying that it was RVS thus instigating queries and discussion to push the game forward. He did none of that and chose the safest play that a player could possibly make: an RVS post with clear LABEL tacked on suggesting to us all that that was an RVS vote and he's not to blame for any blowback or discussion that could possibly result from it. That looks like squirmy scum trying to fly under the radar.
Well, thank you for answering. I declare this to be a very severe case of Mountain -> Molehill. I prescribe you one chill pill.
@Xyre: trapping? Or something else.
I have an issue with Tordeck, in that he's acting like he's got a posting restriction, but one of his posts was "Yo Vanilla." Which suggests he's also claiming Vanilla Town. (1) Personally, I would never claim "vanilla" town if I had a posting restriction. Maybe that's just me, but that wouldn't feel right. But also (2) Claiming Vanilla Town (i.e. no positive abilities) for no reason is a terrible idea, especially if you do, in fact, have a posting restriction.
@Wildfire:
I have been in a game where someone said they were town in the beginning of the game. I didn't react to them because I don't find it to be a huge deal and am currently wondering why you feel differently.
I feel the same about the practice in general as I do about people confirming with a slash as opposed to without a slash. Sometimes I feel like using a slash, sometimes I don't. Sometimes other people feel like using a slash, sometimes they don't.
I'm not sure what exactly you expect this thought exercise to produce.
Just trying to understand your mindset. Claiming town from the start is like, the biggest WIFOM move in the game. I was hoping to get some insight to try to determine your actual alignment from it.
However, I missed that you claimed Governor between my last post and the one previous, so this whole line is pretty moot since Governor is both provable and insanely town.
Town governor. Governor does not sound like a town role.... whatsoever.
Nor does it sound conducive to town.
Ergo
[B]unvote vote nacho [\b]
How the hell is Governor not a town role? Town primarily kills scum via lynches. Governor prevents lynches. It is insanely overpowered in the hands of scum (especially as a multi-shot), while as town you can use it to save someone who appears pretty obviously town based on their reaction to being lynched. But not if it's announced, meaning I think announcing it this early was a mistake.
Not a scum-tell, mind you, just a mistake.
I'm feeling strongly that the one's talking over the last page (tappingstones, tomsloger, oceanblack) are reading town. There wasn't as much suspicious activity as there was egos clashing.
I think I'd like to hear more from jobie when he's back on Wednesday. Also rodemy, and necarg.
I think I will: [b]unvote, vote Tordeck[/b], on the grounds that his PR (or supposed PR) is too restrictive, leaving us to interpret too much. It also could just not be real, which brings another batch of problems. Because this is the best option right now, my vote will be here to signify my support.
We could also build a wagon (on anyone) and test that governor's role, before making too many assumptions based on that being confirmed information.
I'm not laying a trap for Necarg, if that's what you mean. I want Necarg to commit to something definitive. This seems better than asking him for a scum-list, based on what I've read from his past town and scum games. I'll readily share my opinion of tomsloger just as soon as Necarg does.
Does your vote for Nachomamma8 have anything to do with his declaration that he was town?
Yes, actually. Looking at his recently-completed games, this isn't something he's done as either alignment. And he's been town in his most-recent handful so it's not like he has a reason to be excited to "finally" be town.
I don't buy it. "Because rvs" What were you calling out "he did" I am actually serious in this question.
I never played governer but here is why i thought it wasnt town:
We vote someone we think is scum and we go to lynch, he can stop it, lynchee is not flipped, and we go to night. Is this a one shot per person? Because that sounds like you can stop a scum from being lynched once. Not multiple times. I can see it as a scum role. You can save them once and move on, we wont know their alignment (which in a two scumteam game, seems pretty useful)
How can town benefit from this role? It kind of means that we have to agree with him or we get a no lynch. If he is scum, he can use this to destroy the entire town.
Why am i the only one who sees this power as evil?
As for proving it: we send someone up to lynch, mkay? He will HAVE to "pardon" that person regardless, and then what? It just proves he can stop lynches.
He can also just run someone up using this claim as a guide and then "oops" roleblocked.
I don't like this claim out front after wildfire was convieniently egging him on about claiming town. It seems forced and preplanned, esspecially since he explained the "benifits" of claiming and how there is no way this can be scum.
@Rodemy: Trust the setup-designers when we say that governor is a classic town role. It's not a good role, and I think that's what's confusing you - it doesn't actually help the town substantially; only rarely does it do its stated purpose of saving the town from its particular vices; in practice, it's just another easily-confirmable role, valued akin to a mason. (I only vaguely remember how Axel's scoring system worked, but I want to say a confirmable vanilla townie is worth 2 or so to a regular townie's 1? To give you some sense of how "blah" it is.)
I could see a mafia governor working, but it'd have to be heavily neutered, for the reasons others have mentioned - the lynch is the town's realm, and the mafia should only get to mess around in it sparingly. Like maybe a 1-shot governor who didn't end the day in a no-lynch (and couldn't self-target, natch) would probably be fine. But if Nacho has a role like that, we'll figure it out instantly, and it'd be one of the most ballsy moves I've ever seen to just claim governor out of the blue without pressure in the hopes we'll never test it out.
Quote from tomsloger »
@xyre any thoughts on you and necarg (your scum read) being basically the same so far this game?
We're not the same. I have pointed to two people I think are scum - Necarg and businessman. I've got an inkling about a third, but I'll save it for now because in my past games when I've played aggressively in the beginning, I've stretched myself out by moving on to new suspects without pushing the old suspects sufficiently.
Don't make the mistake of crediting Necarg for also suspecting businessman; post 69, the one that provoked my vote of him, reads like a classic "me too" scum wagon vote used to simulate content. That was also the penultimate post he made so far this game. I want him to contribute something original to prove he isn't pretending to be active, and if/when he fails to do so, nail him with it. This is the "trap" that Axel implied I'm running. Hence my bewilderment at that characterization. He and I seem to have very different notions of what constitutes trapping. I genuinely care what Necarg has to say; I just believe what he has to say will represent that he doesn't want to have to say anything.
@tapping how am i different?
i mean, yeah, im reacting to different things. but i'm still posting a bunch, doing things to get reactions, and annoying the crap out of people.
im not really in the business of trying to defend myself, but i just dont get it.
also, did you really reread 19 pages of a completed game to make a case against me? like, im all for thorough scumhunting but damn.
Look at how careful you've been compared to last game. You're hiding/(protecting) something. It just feels different. If it becomes necessary I'll go back and quote from the previous game but currently you're walking the green mile.
Tom give us a T/S list and tell us why you are being so careful this game, it wouldn't be such a read if you hadn't adamantly told us that "your tone is your tone" and "I wont be changing it".
[b]@ Necarg[/b]: Rather than respond to me, you asked Seppel a question about his characterization of my question. Again: what's your opinion of tomsloger?
Also thanks for reminding me why I initially voted Tom: What he said sounded like Silver Rage. (Getting mad that you couldn't do something townie.) His whole "I wish I thought of it" is very off-putting.Done. Now it's your turn. Show your work.
Regarding TS's lack of vote: TS votes, with passion. It bothered me that TS didn't post a vote throughout the entire exchange. What is your basis for a town read on TS?
Finally, you've got people voting you but you decided to quote me. Twice. Why?
Tom is scum for a few reasons. The "wish I thought of that" is a big way to not produce content, I feel like tom is indeed smart enough to heave a bucket of WIFOM onto us, and I haven't really seen him actually hunt scum yet. Also,
He never even expanded on WHY he ever thought xyre was scum. I know he unvoted, but he never expanded on his original reasoning, leading me to believe he never actually thought xyre was scum, or couldn't find legit evidence.
Calling WIFOM for WIFOM's sake is WIFOM. But the rest are reasonable to be voting tom.
I quoted you instead of people who voted me because I don't give a crap that 2 people are voting me. I have a null read on Xyre, and a town read on Nacho, so I didn't feel the need to quote one of them. tl;dr version: 2 << 10, so I don't care.
Necarg is probably town.
And again. Because that post (Necarg's) seems weird to me, too. He's basically saying he doesn't care what someone has to say as soon as they vote for him, and that he'd rather talk to skeptical allies than enemies. That seems un-townie to me, at least in as far as the critics have a basis for their statements. Most players I've met are interested in proving their innocence against valid criticism, and largely just shrug off passing votes. tl;dr "haters gonna hate" warrants deeper analysis, not a free pass.
Necarg: "I think Tom is scum for <REASON A> and <REASON B>"
Xyre: "Necarg's case is partially plagiarized!"
Mind blown. Seriously you're not even reading what you're typing. That is the most poisonous way I could ever see "me too!" get turned into an attack on someone. Cases beyond the original are always going to be "partially plagiarized." Suddenly if you agree with someone's reasons, your case can be attacked for plagiarism? What a load of garbage. That happens all the time.
[b]Unvote, vote Xyre[/b] if I'm not already
Are YOU even reading what I'm typing? You narrowed down on one word choice and ignored the fact that his ENTIRE post consisted of lousy reasons to lynch.
I'm not saying making an argument which another player has already made is a scum tell in and of itself. That's your straw man talking. What I'm saying is that Necarg's entire post consisted of terrible arguments - trite, hypocritical, or stolen. He had an opportunity to make a contribution to the game, and instead did the bare minimum necessary to appear to be reasonable. It's not scummy to make an argument another player has made, but his behavior is precisely consistent with a lurking scum (which, again, appears to be how Necarg plays as scum, based on his past games).
Instead of just picking little pieces to confirm your gut reaction, would you please respond substantially to my actual arguments?
Also, you've played a ton of games with me. By this point, you should know I have an idiosyncratic writing style. If you can point to any time I ever used a particular word over another to slime another player, in ten years of playing the game, I'd be happy to eat crow.
I don't know why your drive-by criticism style is agitating me so much. But there you go.
I went back and looked closer at TappingStones to see if that one post I didn't like was an outlier or not, and it wasn't. TappingStones whole style of play is rubbing me wrong and he's doing a number of suspect things:
He started the game agreeing with someone (Nacho?) that Tomsloger was playing different in this game than in his last one. The implication here is that this is suspicious, but I don't like the way it's done. Because difference in playstyle is NOT actually indicative of much of anything. MAYBE it indicates a different kind of role than the one you had before, but maybe not, and it definitely doesn't indicate a different alignment. But that's really his only point about Tom. "He's playing differently."
Then he gets into a spat with Oceansblack about whether Oceansblack is being too insulting to other players. This also is completely non-alignment indicative, and TappingStones seems to know it, but keeps harping on it. He even flatly accuses Oceansblack of lying, but at the very same time says "now this doesn't mean you are scum..." What's even going on here? This isn't scum-hunting. It's some kind of bizarre confrontational style which reaches no conclusions at all.
Then he finally votes Tom, but, again, the reason appears strictly to be based on this supposed difference in play-style from this game and the last. Which is a terrible (but easy) reason to vote.
This vote is quickly abandoned, however, to vote Antny, for not putting in enough effort. And then there's the post that first caught my eye, where he even says that he's not trying to lynch Antny, but just to make him put in more effort. Another thing I didn't like about that post was how he used the Royal "We" in responding to Nacho - i.e. "It's not just me who feels this way...I'm with someone else on this...WE both feel this way..." It's too buddy-buddy. He's shielding himself and also giving himself an out to scum-hunting. Because he's voting on principle or something. And exactly what kind of pressure do you think you're going to put on someone to post when you are saying at the exact same time you vote them that you don't want to lynch them?
There's a claim that this is TappingStones style - to try and put pressure on the lurkers early - which I have no idea if that's true or not. But even if that is supposedly true, I don't actually see him doing much of this at all in this game. He's not pressuring anyone, lurker or not. He's not scumhunting. He's made some insinuations against a couple of people, and argued a completely irrelevant issue, but given no strong opinions.
This last post is typical:
Looking into Necarg, Imabusinessman and Rodemy.
Anyone want to tell me there main thoughts on them while I do my reread?
He's "looking into" them, without stating any actual opinions, and at the same time trying to get other people to give their opinions - which I guess he can then crib off of if it suits his game?
Nothing good going on here.
[b]Unvote Xyre;
Vote: TappingStones[/b]
I intend to do a close read of TomsLoger next. And then *shudder* maybe Rodemy.
So, I've been assuming that when iamabusinessman said he was a 1-shot "Seer" that was just another way of saying "Cop" - i.e. an ability that would detect scum, period. And 1-shot gunsmith was another type of investigative role, which can find killers, but also pings on Townie killing roles like Vig.
Now I see some people suggesting that "Seer" is for "Werewolves" (i.e. that one scum team specifically) and that "Gunsmith" is for "Mafia" (i.e. the other scum group). Which is not something I had considered. Frankly, that makes the role a lot less useful if that's what it is.
So @iamabusinessman: is that what your role means?
ETR has all but claimed scum at this point. If the answer was that important he'd have found it by now because I've already answered. Instead he's sitting around pissing and moaning and not engaging the game. He's scum caught for the wrong reasons which is why he's paralyzed. He wants to try and get into an argument with me to discredit whatever reasons he thinks I have. He's going about this entire thing with a guilty mindset because he thought he was caught.
And I see tomoger also ignoring gunsmith. Tom+EtR not out of the question.
@Axel...
Yeah seer finds wolves gunsmith finds people with guns.
Alright, I'll admit it: imabusinessman is probably telling the truth after all. If it was made up, voluntarily adopting a less useful, harder-to-fake role makes no sense.
@Necarg ANSWER my question from #118...I'm still waiting.
*sarcasm*Good job on telling time*sarcasm*
I got my first bit of internet available free time, so I'll humor you.
I don't like GJ's original plan because I feel that town can lynch scum D1, which is arguably better than a no-lynch to let PR's figure it out. It should be obvious. This seems normal for GJ though, so he's probably town.
On the second question, read most of my D1's. I don't typically have solid reads D1 and I typically note that (Even in BDM my reads were all over the place and unclear.). It's not indicative of my alignment.
I have a pocket list of people who should be copped/vigged due to how worthless it is to tackle them head-on.
Fun! I have one of those two. I even used it in my last game.
I'm not sure what's more frustrating to read, Antny's blatant lack of desire to provide content or Tom's attempt to provide content that's just saying "WORdS WoRDS WORnDS WORtS WORkS WiRDS WORlDS WORlDS WORmS WeRDS"
[b]@All[/b] I despise Tom's characterization of Tapping in Predator. Tapping was very transparent and not trying to coerce anyone into doing things. He made some weird moves at the end of the game that got him lynched as VT, mostly out of paranoia. I think he's playing a little more aggressive, but I can't differentiate between it being "new player getting comfortable", "new player with their first ability" and "new player playing first game as scum".
I don't know if I agree about the ETR slip. I think it's confirmation bias rather than an actual slip.
I don't like any of the current wagons and I don't have enough information to start one of my own. ETR is being voted based on a slip, Necarg based off of some frustration that I think is genuine and Tapping is gaining steam because ???. Also for a game this size it feel like way too few people are talking.
It's been 4 days since Hunt promised a quote wall
Nacho hasn't posted in 5 days.
[b]@Iso:[/b] Can we get prods on Huntzilla and Nachomamma8? Thanks.
This has been easily the most suspect slot so far. OB's horrific play put him in a position for others to scrutinize him, but the problem is that he doesn't hold up to the scrutiny. #25 VOTES JOBIE and says WF is a good vote too. #26 confirms his vote is not RSV. #29 unvotes Jobie and naked votes GJ. (He's just looking to run someone up. Has no consideration of whether someone is actually scum, just wants to start a wagon.) #36 WF wisely points out OB saying scum is more likely to call out Nacho's announcment than town, but is still voting Jobie. (barn/ this) #76 Says GJ is trying to produce minimal content-scum motivated. Says Zionite is copying his read. Is evasive about axelrod's question. Tries to say it's scummy (this is the start of quite a few attacks where he says anyone who disagrees with him is scum). #87 Dodges Axelrod's question. Admits he hasn't answered the question. (Gives a bogus reason, check it out), again calls question scumy. #96 pointless post #98 links all of Tom's posts without any explanations. #101 Goes at Tom. Unvotes GJ VOTES TOM. Insults Tom's English based on paragraph spacing, capitalization, etc. #109 Very confrontational unvotes, now is on TS. (He's already voted how many people???) Essentially for asking him why he's attacking Tom's English and what mistakes he couldn't understand. #110 Admits he ignored info on Tom "for [his] own reasons". #111 Tom calls out OB for understanding yet saying he didn't understand. (it's unclear to all which posts were supposed to be "unclear/non-native") #112 Says TS is his top scum read.Accuses of "fanning the flames" (actually I was telling him to cut it out/asking what was unclear) #117 Tells me, If I disagreed with his post I shouldn't have commented. (WWHHAATT????) Makes up a wildly conspiratory post of TS's motives. (Is thinking from a scum mindset). #119 OB IMPLODES #120 continues implosion #122 Says Tom and I are opposite scum teams. #127 OB is getting zero support against me so lashes out at the player base. #132 Personal attacks against Tom and I. #149 replaces out. Says I am scum and Tom is a good lynch. Nacho is town. (duh)
Others also saw a scum slip but I think my case against him is solid enough without that. If you believe the scum slip then that's just icing on the cake for me. But I think this argument is pretty solid.
ETR/OceanBlack SCUM lynch or vig if you can.
Nacho- Currently town but I want more participation. We already have Nacho, Seppel, Wildfire, GJ and I to build a solid base around. I'm also feeling good about Jobie but need to see a lot more action and reads.
DOTA #81 Calls out OB on his strange defense. #105 Corretly calls out OB for reading too much into RVS. #107 (very careful)Reads OB as nretral #156 VOTES Tom "Something puts me off", "Gut read" (I DONT LIKE THIS) #303 admits he is too scared to do anything. His words! Town shouldn't be scared.
LEAN SCUM
Necarg #58 Asks a random question. Says he disagrees with GJ and that he has no clear reads. #69 Calls out IABM VOTES IABM. #95 Xyre calls out Necarg as classic meta lurking scum. Gives decent reasoning. #205 Tom is scum. Trying very hard to give minimal input and is a bit nervous IMO.
Lean Scum
Axelrod #32 Asks a pointless question. #56 Asks OB why Jobie was a better vote than wildfire? VOTES XYRE says because "voting someone who probably isn't scum" #80 Says xyre is playing both sides. Clearly demonstrates xyre's suspect idea. #82 Calls out OB on "fixation" comment and strange "Why is my vote a concern?" Points out hostility. Calls out OB's conspiracy theory. #139 Tells OB to chill. Says he's making a mountain out of a molehill. Says he doesn't think OB is scum. (HUH??)
Lean Town-He's just playing poorly. He sees a lot of the scummy play in OB but doesn't want to rock the boat. Timid town (or scum I can't be sure). I'll lean town till I see more.
Zionite #40 Naked VOTES AXELROD. Shows dislike for GJ's no lynch plan. #41 Says Nacho "im town" is not a tell. Wildfire has no case. #63 Says he's voting to "make the mod do more work" (BAD joke, worse vote) Quotes the xyre post about Necarg but doesn't explain. #159 townreads TS, Tom, OB. VOTES TORDECK #300 barns axelrod and votes me #306 asks Tom to defend me, doesn't want to look himself. Particularly bizarre because it's transparent that he doesn't care about the answer. Asking Tom to do work for him. BIZARRE.
SCUM
XYRE #47 votes IABM. Asks how much experience he has. (I hate this vote) #62 Says Necarg is scum. #73 naked votes Necarg. #148 Asks Necarg his opinion of Tom? (trying to gauge the wagon?) #167 reiterates he thinks Necarg and IABM are scum. #301 "likes axelrod's TS post" #321 admits his IABM angle is busted.
Has been a walking disaster most of this game begging for people to vote for him.
Lean Scum proceed with lynch, I will support.
Last scum is between IABM and Tom. We can find this out in short order.
And this thing is really weird. Feels like scum feeling self conscious for doing more.
I like this battle plan, and strongly feel that this game, much like Animal mafia is the correct play. Serious vote is serious.
[b]Gut says this is a Town post.[/b] Scum desire to achieve mislynches is high. I think in a multi-scum group game it's going to be even higher. So to advocate a plan that's going to at least feel like it's against your best interests seems less likely. Caveat if GJ is known for suggesting such things (such as in this post referencing Animal Mafia?) If this is something he always does then he's likely to feel obligated to propose it again even if scum. So then it becomes more of a neutral thing.
For a gut read this sure has a lot of rationale.
Adding Axel to my scumreads.
Skimming Tom vrs Tapping for lack of time…
If I'm going to be lynched for "whining and AtE" as Seppel put it then so be it, I don't care anymore.
Ignoring Seppel is by far the way to go :nods:
[quote from="tomsloger »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/645040-mafia-classic-wolves-vs-mafia-day-1-blood-moon?comment=519"][quote from="TappingStones »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/645040-mafia-classic-wolves-vs-mafia-day-1-blood-moon?comment=518"]@Mod-could we get a vote count please?
The formatting of that is all messed up at the end. Is that you adding me to your list of "scumreads" for giving too much explanation for a "gut" read?
Also: Xyre, Jobie, Zionite. Where is the scum? (this is even multiple choice where you can pick more than one! but say who you feel strongest about.)
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
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Question 1: Why did you stop interacting with EtR
Question 2: Can you explain why you worded it like that?
Question 3: Can you explain how you went from
to
In the first four quotes you reference your reads list posts that he clearly misread, then in the 5th post you say you don't know which posts he's referring to.
To the first question. I didn't think I didn't know I stopped interacting with etr. Looks like I got bogged down by all the Tom interaction. One of the things I'm looking to improve on is staying above the slapfights but I've struggled with that so far this game. For your second question you can look back to the player that suggested we could have 12 town 3 mafia 3 werewolf. Those numbers seemed as sound to me as any other combination I could think of at the time. Is 2-2-14 more normal? I have no idea. If I had to guess I would say 12-3-3. Question three I'm not sure what you're asking here? I kept pressuring him to provide the evidence for his statements, he has refused to. I went back and looked through all of my posts in case there was a chance I'm being stupid and missed something, but I have failed to find what he has claimed about me. I'm asking where are these statements he's referring to. Could I be making a mistake? Would he really just ignore his mistake this long? I'll be embarrassed if the post actually exists but after looking back I'm confident he was misrepping me.
the one where he wants to know why i wont take his word for a town read on you when he hasnt read the game?
or the one where he asks what about predator gave me confidence in my reads?
im going to assume the latter, since the first one was stupid.
well, i correctly scum read ika and tordeck, and correctly townread hookerpunch and you (to be fair, i did scumread you for quite awhile in the middle of my time alive, but towncleared you toward the end).
hell, i started the ika wagon.
i was definitely wrong on chris. and rhand. ***** happens. hopefully ive learned from it.
but overall, i thought i did pretty well for my very first game. at least in regards to my reads, if not in my ability to make friends/stay alive.
and what the hell does being killed have to do with anything?
also, you seem to have forgotten that youre pretending that you think im scum for this line of questioning. going after my ability to read people when youre supposed to think i know the answers.
but thats expected. youve tried a lot of different ways to attack me this game. starting with your very first post after confirming.
yes, im going to continue to vote my top scum read. especially when he keeps saying scummy things.
but i have made quite clear the other two and a half players im willing to lynch if the wagon gets large enough.
because i get that there is more than one scum player in this game and forming a majority is hard.
do you not consider openly scumreading someone to be "pressure"?
I consider tunneling me in an 18 player game pretty poor play in general, scum or not. You did this to S.C. in your first game and bogged the conversation down quite a bit. You actually had one brilliant comment in this game when you told someone that not a single player from Predator mafia was voting me and there was good reason for that. Unfortunately you're now the only fool from Predator Mafia.
It's frustrating to play with you on many levels and I made it known to the mod + asked if you could be coached for your next game. Tom what exactly was so scummy about S.C. that you couldn't let go? What's so scummy about me that you can't let go? Are the players that are town reading me all worse analysist's than you?
Enlighten us if you will Tom.
ill move it if the time comes. you are very definitely the one bogging down the conversation in this game. i keep enabling it and share plenty of the blame, and i apologize to everyone.
i guess i have to just stop responding to you for awhile.
but sure, lets do one more:
first, im not sure what you mean by tunnelling as i do have other scum reads. and also i havent been on you nearly as long as youve been on me. yada yada yada.
i scum read chris because he was being manipulative. that was correct, but apparently not a scum tell for chris. do we really need to talk about an irrelevant read from a different game?
as for what makes you so scummy this game, i definitely dont need to go into that again. please refer to previous posts.
and i cant really speak to what other players think. i know chris and seppel are townreading you. but chris hasnt even read the damn game.
i dont recall anyone else doing so, but others may be as well.
but you are currently tied for the most votes. so i dont really think the "everyone knows im town" card is going to work. especially when we dont know those players' alignments.
im going to go to bed and come back and talk to other people.
you may now have the last word.
Unvote Whoever, vote Tom. His "stream of consciousness" hasn't been doing a good job of following his actions. His firmness towards TS, but reluctance to vote towards anyone seems bleh.
I don't know why people are voting Zionite. He isn't a strong town read for me, but he isn't half as scummy as some of you lot.
Dota hasn't done much to make me feel better about him, but he doesn't feel as scummy.
Sir Chris makes me feel slightly better about the slot. I'll skim vanillaville though, just because I still can't shake Necarg.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Also your vote sucks.
Better than yours. I am also bored of casing, maybe tomorrow.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
What bothers me about TS's vote is that if he had such a slam dunk of ZIonite in a lie, why would he not just post it here, and convince us to go after him? Zionite could do the same thing for the opposite reason, so it just reeks of laziness by all parties.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Case? Jobie don't need no stinking case.
I'm behind so I know this has already been commented on, but I really dislike this kind of setting up. Even putting aside the fact that it simply doesn't work in a multi-scum game. It feel like Zionite is just being super lazy here, or is scum who momentarily forgot that there was another scum team out there.
This jumped out at me because of the odd way DoTArchon steps in to defend Zionite here. It's CLEAR from the post that Zionite is suggesting that a "scum" flip from TappingStones or myself = "Town points" for the other, notwithstanding the qualifier he threw in about the other not being "cleared." And it's wrong because of (1) as noted - multiple scum teams and (2) bad logic period.
I don't remember, but there was definitely something. I'd have to go back and read it again to put it in words.
I have a positive initial reaction to Vaimes as replacement into the game.
I dislike how TappingStones keeps calling people LIARS. I am not sure I understand this particular accusation as it concerns Zionite.
That said: Xyre, Jobie, Zionite. All still seem good votes.
It was less about defending Zionite and more about pointing out the error in Tom's post. I guess it does look like I'm defending Zionite, if you consider my discussion with TS earlier on this page, but there as well I'm just trying to point out a flawed argument. Seems to be a few where Zionite is concerned, need to reread him. Maybe I'm missing something.
Well unfortunately no one asked me in RVS what I thought.
I found which players are vehemently against lynching solely based on PR. I thought I'd get more relationship info but I wasn't paying attention.
Basically the scales metaphor is about weighing my options in the event a lynch went down immediately. I have to assume that while I'm away anything could happen, so my vote is my lynch. If someone tilts the scales (aka looks scummier), I vote that option.
I'm saying suspicion on me is on the rise. I know what it looks like.
To be fair, you never asked me any question. You just jumped straight into calling me a liar and never showed me what the hell you were talking about.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/645040-mafia-classic-wolves-vs-mafia-day-1-blood-moon?comment=354
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/645040-mafia-classic-wolves-vs-mafia-day-1-blood-moon?comment=357
So now tell me why i was lean town and then very lynchable? In retrospect its looking like you just have bad formatting and you're misrepping me for it. Why couldn't you answer my question about this? Did you just want to call me a liar over and over that bad?
I think our playstyles are exactly the same. You came in and voted with little explanation, instead opting to wait until you are addressed. I do this to. This trait doesn't tell me much about alignment, but it does tell me what to expect. Your bait is something I do too (vote and wait for reaction), so I caught on quick. At this moment, I have you leaning town, but scum can scum hunt too in this game. Just because you post like me doesn't clear you.
This seems unnecessarily harsh and patronizing.
I asked you first. This is just deflection.
Including yourself. I would like to see what Taredas says on this matter.
Um, other game...
I'll admit I went too far down the rabbithole on Nacho. I chose him for RVS because of his "I'm town" post. "You know what you did" was definitely a joke though. I pushed on it because I found the town declaration to be weird, and as I said, out of character for him.
Again, it was ultimately meaningless because he's basically auto-town based on his ability
I'm not really liking Zionite, especially with that whole "whoops forgot there were two scum teams" thing.
Seppel has me a little suspicious because he seems to actually be engaged in the game.
It's harder than normal to form scum-reads since even scum can genuinely scum-hunt.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
"It's Time"
The Family
in post 327 now i dont necessarily agree with this, but it is a thing you said so lets assume that you do.
but earlier in the game, which was in response to that slapfight on page 3 in which tapping called oceanblack a liar no less than FIVE times without ever voting him.
was #327 a completely new revelation then? because im having trouble reconciling that otherwise.
and what casing have you done exactly?
you sure are critical of others' lack of cases for someone whos only case this game was a meta argument against necarg 6 pages ago.
i know youve barely been here, but it would be nice to see one from you on anyone.
seppel is one of the people in this game i cant quite pin down. what are you basing this on?
i guess it has to be meta, because engaged seems like a null read. but he also doesnt really seem that engaged to me.
Seppel is one of these oddball players. When he's town, he's generally flippant and entirely disengaged. When he's scum, he tends to be more engaged. It's not a 1:1 correlation, but there is some level of correlation there. Hence
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Why is that odd tom?
The odds of getting it right day one are lower than most days. This is twisting what was said.
Aren't all lists based on the mood of the game to one degree or another? And how are you able to determine from my post that my reads are unjustified? Lastly, Sir Chris only just replaced in and I replaced in on the tail end of Necarg playing. Stop attempting to find issues that aren't there.
I love that you agree with this post, but just several post earlier you agreed with my list with the exception of Xyre. You are flitting from one POV to another just as much as Antny was.
If you agree, how can my read be unjustified?
I'm going to post this, knowing that you will continue to ignore me. How do you make sense of those people in relation to each other from a scum perspective? If it's two teams, how would you divide them at this point?
Where are you at on Tom?
I'm going to probably do this in chunks and then take a day to reread to make all the disjointed pieces make sense; keep your radios tuned to my frequency because stuff is finally happening here very very soon.
If anything, me forgetting about two scum teams means I'm not either of them. Yes this is self analysis to be taken as such, but I don't see how you come to the opposite conclusion.
Yes there was, and here you have it: Post #300. It was the idea that TS specifically wasn't really doing any hunting, just pushing people's buttons.
It's just too wrong.
Him calling you scum for the slip?
159 talks about the {OB, Tom, TS} trio being all town - remember that defensive play is a more reliable indicator of town in multiball than offensive play. I am not 100% OB is scum, although I am leaning that way and am confident he isn't scum with either Tom or TS. Tom's reaction to the situation seemed pretty town while TS's reaction looks a lot along the lines of what I expect him to look like as town.
Am unsure where Necarg town-reads are coming from - do people (particularly Seppel) mind talking about those?
Up to Page 5.
but why talk about shared town reads? what does that really do?
this is actually the point i was making at the time. i, too, thought your list looked like someone making the least offensive T/S list.
yup. my bad.
No, his conclusion that he drew from it. I can't follow how he'd think I'm scum for forgetting about two scum teams and there was no other reasoning thrown out there. It's too opportunistic.
Scales are still on TS, Wildfire IGMEOY.
For now, my two focuses for the day are Huntzilla and the Sir Chris slot. Huntzilla made promises to catch up and never has delivered or done anything close to that. I've found he has a lot more trouble finding things to post as scum versus when he's town, and so his posting this game in falling in line pretty solidly to what I expect from him as scum.
Necarg's posting is scummy as all hell based on meta (with the basic underlying tell being rigid = scum, crazy = town) and am very confident the slot is town; Chris's push on DoT for self-awareness and saying he has habits doesn't come close at all to redeeming, wondering why on earth anyone is reading this slot as anything other than scum.
Off the top of my head, my townreads are:
-Tom: I don't think his approach to the OB/TS fight early game was an approach that he would take as town, and his behavior in the discussion with Seppel also looks insanely town. He's also been a huge presence again and I like the direction most of his scumhunting has taken. Tom is the only player I'd currently pardon if lynched.
-TS: Think TS looks incredibly town, have no idea what Zionite's on about.
-Xyre: Earlier posting was a lot better than recent posting, still happy with a townread here.
-EtR: Lean town based on OceanBlack's play, not confident in the read yet.
-GJ: Mostly based on early play, but recent posting isn't terrible although I don't really agree with the direction.
I'll work on getting a more in-depth readslist on the table as soon as possible, but the name on everyone's lips should be Sir Chris. I see a Zionite wagon forming, but I have absolutely no idea why so if someone could help me out with that I would appreciate it a lot.
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Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
now, i dont think 10 posts is even enough to display rigidity. but in addition, he actually changed his mind a couple of times.
if thats the meta, im saying necarg was more crazy than rigid.
Good scum reads. You have EtR leaning town; did the EtR scum-slip from earlier factor into this?
...
It is. And his posts this game are...not as engaged, I think. And Sir Chris feels kind of coast-y (he did claim to be sick, though, blah). So far his posts consist of him:
> entering the game (null)
> telling us not to be afraid to pressure him (+town)
> posts some reads, focuses mostly on DoTA (and given that DoTA is new (?), this is kinda iffy)
> answers a question about the mindset of new players (null)
> says he's sick and it's affecting his gameplay, mostly a self-defense post (-town)
> a couple of easy posts (-town)
> post saying that he's still not caught up
> meta defenses, easy posts
> claims he's taking advantage of the long deadline to take the game slow
Overall feelings: don't like either of this slot's occupiers very much.
Unvote
I'll reread Sir Chris and the little we have from Hunt when I get to work a bit later.
Good question. I'm not sure I can reconcile who is on which scum team at the moment(should I be able to?). I tell you what, if I'm still standing on day two I'll take up this question and see if I can find things that might imply relationships. Right now the game feels really messy. There are people I feel are scummy and others I feel as town. But I've never played with multiple teams, in fact I've only played 3-4 games period.
Does anyone want to disagree with me on Zionite, Xyre, or Etr?
I also like Nacho reminding me about Huntzilla. In Predator mafia he was very active in day one getting in slapfights and become volatile and he was town by the way. I want to see some Huntzilla content and I want to see some more GJ content. I have GJ as town but it seems like he's mostly checking in to criticize others and not really make many points of his own. He made a comment on laziness which seems to be more "pot meet kettle" than anything else.
Or... right game.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Tarhalindur_Standard_Tells
Look at "Selective Scumhunting."
(Tarhalindur=Taredas) He's dumb town who needs help. Don't know. His reads have never been valuable or helpful. I was about to ask why you changed your thought process from Necarg to Chris but then I realized they're the same slot.
I'm actually interested in reading Wildfire now.
btw to vaimes: what are 'easy posts.' I've never heard the term.
Oh also Nacho I like how you think I need to "redeem" my player slot. You so cray.
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2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Zionite hasn't done anything to hit my radar. Justify what he has done to hit yours.
I don't know which two posts they are referring to, and even if I did, I don't fully understand their view. What should have happened was TS goes "here are these two posts, here is why zionite is scum." Or Zionite goes "Here are these posts, this is what they meant" (I think further down, someone did it so I will take a look in a second).
I made a pretty good case about why Necarg is scum this game. I pointed out several scummish things, including fishing on Tordeck, his inconsistency on how he viewed my attempt for a no-lynch. The meta part of True Name was simply the neat little ribbon on top. Then, Necarg replaced out, and Chris has come in. Please explain how that was merely a "meta argument".
Can you clarify this? It sounds like you are reading Necarg as very confidently as town, but confused why Chris could read as anything other than scum?
I can't disagree with you more on Tom. Either today or tomorrow, I'll try to do somewhat of a case. If I can't convince you, I'll look back at Necarg/Chris, and maybe Dota.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Posts that are just there to be there. Asking/answering easy/mechanical questions, fluff, repeated 'I'm still catching up' posts, going off on random tangents, extensive meta talk, and so on.
I'm hyped!
(+1 easy post)
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Iso'd a few other players to see if anything stood out. I really don't like how Jobie has approached the game so far, I started pulling out quotes to put together a case and then found this:
This sums up pretty much everything I wanted to say/ask Jobie up to that point. Then these two posts came up:
Vote: Jobie
Trying to garner support from players to lynch someone without a warranted reason(other than he annoyed you in another game)seems scummy. Can you elaborate on the "solid scum slip"? And why his flip, regardless of alignment, would be the most informative?
I could definitely see that as something scum would be more likely to forget than town. Scum typically don't think about other scumteams, whereas I think town would be hyper aware of both? Because we're honest to god paranoid of people not being cleared a la genuine scumhunting and looking unaligned with flipped scum and stuff.
I don't want to put a lot of stock into this, just more of a passing 'vaguely do not like' thought. Anyone else want to chime in on this?
I still think this part of Zionite's post:
is indicative of scum, since scum are (typically) the only ones in the know and therefore have no doubts about alignments. It just sounds really...predatory coming from him.
Xyre
Jobie
Zionite
Everybody pick one. Who is the most likely scum?
It strikes me that you’ve just taken everyone that is generally suspected and sorted them into piles. Feels a little like you don’t want to rock the boat.
quote from="Antny223 »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/645040-mafia-classic-wolves-vs-mafia-day-1-blood-moon?comment=356"][b]@Tapping[/b] can you arrange 354 into an ordered scum list so it's clear what your reads are, cheers.[/quote]When have you ever cared as much as you're caring now?[/quote]
Is this a serious question or Seppel-babbel?
Except he didn’t. Considering that 357 was him cleaning up 354, how do you not get at this point that he’s calling you scum (hence the capitalised SCUM under your name in 354).
And ironically enough, you’ve managed to convince me to agree with TS here.
Does he have to?
I mean really, does he have to tell you that his vote was a red hot, slam dunk, scumread?
So you're voting Tom because he didn't look something up? You're hopping to where ever you think something will catch fire with weak reasoning.
[b]Vote: Antny223[/b] [/quote]
Well that’s half of what I said. The other half is, well you quoted it so I assume you would have read it.
Except he didn’t assume anything. He didn’t know.
That’s not the point. You can’t be thorough at casing someone and ignore something so central to their play. It is impossible to have formed an opinion on imab without considering the role, and that’s impossible if you don’t know what the role does.
Why? If Necarg is scum then Chris is surely the last player you want in a scumslot.
Why defend DoTA here?
MY PREFERRED LYNCHES (of the 3 Axelrod said)
Zionite
Xyre
Jobie
I'm not feeling anything from Jobie, and DoTA is disappearing from my scumdar.
That's about all my brain can do right now.
Also: Xyre, Jobie, Zionite. Where is the scum? (this is even multiple choice where you can pick more than one! but say who you feel strongest about.)