Based on what I heard about predator, someone who has no experience with Tom is most likely going to find these results salacious.
...now if Necarg was in Predator mafia then we have an issue
...thanks for the help?
That jives with a town mindset. Necarg is notorious as scum for saying "I don't have reads D1" and tosses around thoughts that don't correspond with his previous posts. I'm not seeing that here. He's finally scumhunting.
Does him "finally" scumhunting jive with his town play? Because it seemed (again, from my research) like he's faster out of the gates, and more original, when he actually cares to find scum.
"Hey don't look at that loaded word I typed!! Look at my whole post!! I can defend against that!!"
A) If I can defend against the criticism, doesn't that suggest my points are valid?
B) There's a name for this kind of analysis: "forest for the trees". Don't consider the word in context; consider its meaning alone, and find a theory to explain it alone.
What necarg scum games have you read?
Skimmed the first ten or so pages of Bravely Default (town), True Name (scum), and [ongoing games]. I was sure there was another game he was in, but apparently not.
do you actually expect me to go verify that
Of course not. That might require you to put in some effort. You might pull a muscle.
[@ Gentleman Johnny]What are your reasons for DOTA and Necarg?
Seriously? He said them in the goddamn post you quoted!
Quote from GJ »
I am perfectly happy with stringing up DotaArchon or Necarg. The former's interaction with Rodemy looks manipulative, and shady. The latter seems super conscious about his behavior and his "I quoted you instead of people who voted me because I don't give a crap that 2 people are voting me." seems like he actually does, or he wouldn't have stated it outright.
Unvote Since my wagon vote is no longer on a wagon
@Seppel:I confirm that Necarg was not in Predator.
When I'm not in class, I'll try to get some content out. I haven't been able to get a good look at this game outside of passively skimming the thread to see where things are going.
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@AntnyEtR: It was this post of his. When I first read it I got the impression that the bolded, specifically that "m'kay", was him suggesting that we run a wagon up to get Nachos to prove his claim. I have a bad habit of reading too much into small things like that and basing a case on it. Hasn't always worked out for me.
Ugh.. i can see how that sounds like me being for him proving it, but that is not how i wanted it to sound. My actions afterwords (which seem to be confusing you guys) should prove that.
The "mkay" was kind of like my reaction to how it was stated he should prove it.
Think of it this way
Person: We can prove it by running someone up!
Me: mkay? He will have to pardon that person regardless! (of alignment) That just proves he an stop lynches.
I've only been playing for about 2 months, my first game (a basic at Mafiascum) hasn't even finished yet. I'm trying to keep up with everything happening in here but I'm feeling quite lost. I've read a few older completed games but I'm very much not a 'Meta' person. I keep rereading the thread looking for things I can work with but it's a bit overwhelming when the one thing I do go after sets several people (You, Gentleman Johnny and iamabusinessman (whatever his reasons are...)) after me as scum.
That's how I scumhunt. I find what to me looks like inconsistencies and shine a spotlight on them. Right now I'm too afraid to move on anything else because all I've managed to do in this game so far is look like scum. I do find it odd though that not a single person who has called me scum is voting for me. Why is that?
I went back and looked closer at TappingStones to see if that one post I didn't like was an outlier or not, and it wasn't. TappingStones whole style of play is rubbing me wrong and he's doing a number of suspect things:
He started the game agreeing with someone (Nacho?) that Tomsloger was playing different in this game than in his last one. The implication here is that this is suspicious, but I don't like the way it's done. Because difference in playstyle is NOT actually indicative of much of anything. MAYBE it indicates a different kind of role than the one you had before, but maybe not, and it definitely doesn't indicate a different alignment. But that's really his only point about Tom. "He's playing differently."
Then he gets into a spat with Oceansblack about whether Oceansblack is being too insulting to other players. This also is completely non-alignment indicative, and TappingStones seems to know it, but keeps harping on it. He even flatly accuses Oceansblack of lying, but at the very same time says "now this doesn't mean you are scum..." What's even going on here? This isn't scum-hunting. It's some kind of bizarre confrontational style which reaches no conclusions at all.
Then he finally votes Tom, but, again, the reason appears strictly to be based on this supposed difference in play-style from this game and the last. Which is a terrible (but easy) reason to vote.
This vote is quickly abandoned, however, to vote Antny, for not putting in enough effort. And then there's the post that first caught my eye, where he even says that he's not trying to lynch Antny, but just to make him put in more effort. Another thing I didn't like about that post was how he used the Royal "We" in responding to Nacho - i.e. "It's not just me who feels this way...I'm with someone else on this...WE both feel this way..." It's too buddy-buddy. He's shielding himself and also giving himself an out to scum-hunting. Because he's voting on principle or something. And exactly what kind of pressure do you think you're going to put on someone to post when you are saying at the exact same time you vote them that you don't want to lynch them?
There's a claim that this is TappingStones style - to try and put pressure on the lurkers early - which I have no idea if that's true or not. But even if that is supposedly true, I don't actually see him doing much of this at all in this game. He's not pressuring anyone, lurker or not. He's not scumhunting. He's made some insinuations against a couple of people, and argued a completely irrelevant issue, but given no strong opinions.
This last post is typical:
Looking into Necarg, Imabusinessman and Rodemy.
Anyone want to tell me there main thoughts on them while I do my reread?
He's "looking into" them, without stating any actual opinions, and at the same time trying to get other people to give their opinions - which I guess he can then crib off of if it suits his game?
Nothing good going on here.
Unvote Xyre;
Vote: TappingStones
I intend to do a close read of TomsLoger next. And then *shudder* maybe Rodemy.
ok. tappingstones literally did all of these things in predator mafia. you can read it if you want, but its really not necessary.
i had a scum read on him for a decent chunk of my time alive in that game, for several of the same reasons. and he was town.
it is certainly possible that he is new scum actively trying to replicate his town game. there are, after all, 8 players from that game in this one not including tappingstones. it would be a brilliant play. that would even explain why youre reading him as insincere.
i'm still townreading him slightly, but i just wanted to talk about the world in which he is scum. thats how its possible.
also, good luck on your upcoming close reads. i post a lot and rodemy is, well, rodemy
and are you going to tell us why at some point? is it about him focusing on you being a seer? because he asked a fairly pointed question about that and you havent answered
2. tomsloger's posts have scum intent in them. Every one of his reads is phony.
His "i cant' read rodemiy...oh wait rodemy is scum...i can't read rodemy. Refuses to interact with a person he can't read. His ONLY interaction is when Rodemy calls him out on not making any case.
i actually just went back to check this. and its, frankly, all untrue.
i started with the mild scum read of rodemy, and then said i couldnt read him and moved to my "meh" list.
and ive interacted with him so many times. like, more than i thought.
we had that exchange where i kept answering his question to wildfire and he got mad. and we talked about how governor is such a bad role.
how are you even trying to make this point?
Then he makes a case that's filled with loaded language and filler.
Claims that he wants necarg to post. When it gets pointed out that votes can be used to apply pressure he votes the person who points this out to him.
lets just say it here.
it was a case against you. and a vote for you.
i just want to be clear
Compare what he said in 181 to what he wrote in post 94.
i did. what am i supposed to see? heres 181 and 94 to make it easier.
His opinions in this game are contrived. And to top it off, did he actually just say he's not going to post until I post again KNOWING FULL WELL that that could be hours later?
I'll catch up after this weekend. I have a Debate tourney and a ton of schoolwork.
V/La until November 8th
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@Tomsloger: If you're gonna play the meta card, you're going to need actual proof from the game you're citing as evidence.
We didn't all play predator mafia.
nah bro. tappingstones had more posts than me in that game (he lived to the end, but still. thats too much)
you can look if you want, all i'm saying is that his play in this game seems totally in character to me.
i will certainly concede it is possible he is scum. but i do think its noteworthy that 8 people in this game DID play in predator mafia, and none of us are on this wagon.
Annoying when others don't give reasons or put in effort to post isn't it?
Oh a not-so-subtle dig, how cute. But seriously I'm making the effort to post (apologies that there may have been a couple of days when I didn't post, we all know how crucial the early day one rvs stage is ). If you don't like the lack of reasons then the townie thing to do would be to ask. You seem more concerned with throwing mud at me then determining my alignment.
Ok, I cared enough to comment because I'd like everyone posting and giving their ideas. This way it's harder for scum to hide and easier for townies to identify each other. I can't see if you're on my side or not if you're going to put zero effort in.
But I did just that. I gave you ideas and you said you weren't interested in what I thought. You can't turn around now and pretend that actually you did care about my thoughts.
Why are you interested in a Tom lynch?
He seems more interested in appearing town that actually being town. For instance, he only made a case in 232 because Rodemy pointed out how he hadn't yet. Then said case is just a number of points seem fairly null, more like he quickly ISOed one his scumread, and then put everything he found into a post to make it look like a case. There is not a single thing there would actually make you scumread imab.
We shouldn't be pushing claimed PR's at this stage
what?! why not?[/quote]
He's claimed two shots which both teams are afraid of. Lynching any decent PR like this is essentially saving a scumteam a kill. Do I really need to tell you why helping scum is bad for town?
Imab claims 1 shot seer, 1 shot gunsmith. EtR seemed to only be concerned about the seer half, which points to him being a werewolf.
To be fair, Seer is not often seen on this site since most of our games have Mafia and not Werewolves. But this is a good catch. Vote EtR
(Of note, I think it's unlikely that the town has any roles that would use a Gun, like standard Vigilante or Paranoid Gun Owner, as that would break the symmetry of Gunsmith/Seer).
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Then he gets into a spat with Oceansblack about whether Oceansblack is being too insulting to other players. This also is completely non-alignment indicative, and TappingStones seems to know it, but keeps harping on it. He even flatly accuses Oceansblack of lying, but at the very same time says "now this doesn't mean you are scum..." What's even going on here? This isn't scum-hunting. It's some kind of bizarre confrontational style which reaches no conclusions at all.
How is that indicative of being scum and not just being angry?
Does him "finally" scumhunting jive with his town play? Because it seemed (again, from my research) like he's faster out of the gates, and more original, when he actually cares to find scum.
What necarg scum games have you read?
Skimmed the first ten or so pages of Bravely Default (town), True Name (scum), and [ongoing games]. I was sure there was another game he was in, but apparently not.
It seems my memory of Necarg is mistaken. I thought he was scum in True Name. This isn't like anything I've seen of him before.
Whatever. Somebody cop Necarg.
"Hey don't look at that loaded word I typed!! Look at my whole post!! I can defend against that!!"
A) If I can defend against the criticism, doesn't that suggest my points are valid?
B) There's a name for this kind of analysis: "forest for the trees". Don't consider the word in context; consider its meaning alone, and find a theory to explain it alone.
Dude that's what I just did. Circular conversation.
Seriously? He said them in the goddamn post you quoted!
Oh. I was rushed and didn't ask the question correctly:
@AntnyEtR: It was this post of his. When I first read it I got the impression that the bolded, specifically that "m'kay", was him suggesting that we run a wagon up to get Nachos to prove his claim. I have a bad habit of reading too much into small things like that and basing a case on it. Hasn't always worked out for me.
Ugh.. i can see how that sounds like me being for him proving it, but that is not how i wanted it to sound. My actions afterwords (which seem to be confusing you guys) should prove that.
The "mkay" was kind of like my reaction to how it was stated he should prove it.
Think of it this way
Person: We can prove it by running someone up!
Me: mkay? He will have to pardon that person regardless! (of alignment) That just proves he an stop lynches.
I've only been playing for about 2 months, my first game (a basic at Mafiascum) hasn't even finished yet. I'm trying to keep up with everything happening in here but I'm feeling quite lost. I've read a few older completed games but I'm very much not a 'Meta' person. I keep rereading the thread looking for things I can work with but it's a bit overwhelming when the one thing I do go after sets several people (You, Gentleman Johnny and iamabusinessman (whatever his reasons are...)) after me as scum.
That's how I scumhunt. I find what to me looks like inconsistencies and shine a spotlight on them. Right now I'm too afraid to move on anything else because all I've managed to do in this game so far is look like scum. I do find it odd though that not a single person who has called me scum is voting for me. Why is that?
Did you miss the part where I said "Consider my vote on DoTArchon"?
I feel the AtE in this post, but something about it bugs me. Kind of like how Wheat tried to explain his bad posts in FF2 Mafia.
@Tomsloger: If you're gonna play the meta card, you're going to need actual proof from the game you're citing as evidence.
We didn't all play predator mafia.
nah bro. tappingstones had more posts than me in that game (he lived to the end, but still. thats too much)
you can look if you want, all i'm saying is that his play in this game seems totally in character to me.
i will certainly concede it is possible he is scum. but i do think its noteworthy that 8 people in this game DID play in predator mafia, and none of us are on this wagon.
The gunsmith part is irrelevant to the conversation at this point. My concern is that this post does not have any reason for voting or he's attempting to use his claim as his reasoning for voting me. I'm attempting to clarify and hold someone accountable for their vote.
The gunsmith part is irrelevant to the conversation at this point. My concern is that this post does not have any reason for voting or he's attempting to use his claim as his reasoning for voting me. I'm attempting to clarify and hold someone accountable for their vote.
This seems vacuous. While he doesn't spell out the reason for voting, much can be inferred from the fact that he did it in response to the post he quoted. I'll leave it up to him to elaborate his mindset there.
I don't know why he chose to claim at that juncture (I certainly wouldn't have in his position), but at the very least, his claim means he's certainly town until/unless we reach a point where a 2-shot cop that can't even cop right half the time doesn't fit in the setup.
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The gunsmith part is irrelevant to the conversation at this point. My concern is that this post does not have any reason for voting or he's attempting to use his claim as his reasoning for voting me. I'm attempting to clarify and hold someone accountable for their vote.
This seems vacuous. While he doesn't spell out the reason for voting, much can be inferred from the fact that he did it in response to the post he quoted. I'll leave it up to him to elaborate his mindset there.
I don't know why he chose to claim at that juncture (I certainly wouldn't have in his position), but at the very least, his claim means he's certainly town until/unless we reach a point where a 2-shot cop that can't even cop right half the time doesn't fit in the setup.
Re: the bolded - That's all I've been asking for...
So, I've been assuming that when iamabusinessman said he was a 1-shot "Seer" that was just another way of saying "Cop" - i.e. an ability that would detect scum, period. And 1-shot gunsmith was another type of investigative role, which can find killers, but also pings on Townie killing roles like Vig.
Now I see some people suggesting that "Seer" is for "Werewolves" (i.e. that one scum team specifically) and that "Gunsmith" is for "Mafia" (i.e. the other scum group). Which is not something I had considered. Frankly, that makes the role a lot less useful if that's what it is.
So @iamabusinessman: is that what your role means?
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
He seems more interested in appearing town that actually being town. For instance, he only made a case in 232 because Rodemy pointed out how he hadn't yet. Then said case is just a number of points seem fairly null, more like he quickly ISOed one his scumread, and then put everything he found into a post to make it look like a case. There is not a single thing there would actually make you scumread imab.
really? not a single thing?
and yes, i did iso my scumread. it wasnt quick, but that was what i did. sorry i was... too thorough?
He's claimed two shots which both teams are afraid of. Lynching any decent PR like this is essentially saving a scumteam a kill. Do I really need to tell you why helping scum is bad for town?
but at the very least, his claim means he's certainly town until/unless we reach a point where a 2-shot cop that can't even cop right half the time doesn't fit in the setup.
I think your time might be better spent looking for the mindset of players that we don't have strong reason to believe are town from their claim.
sure, if you believe him.
i will admit i didnt look up either of those roles to find out what they actually did.
though i have to say, if seer is for wolves only, that could easily be a scum ability.
ETR has all but claimed scum at this point. If the answer was that important he'd have found it by now because I've already answered. Instead he's sitting around pissing and moaning and not engaging the game. He's scum caught for the wrong reasons which is why he's paralyzed. He wants to try and get into an argument with me to discredit whatever reasons he thinks I have. He's going about this entire thing with a guilty mindset because he thought he was caught.
And I see tomoger also ignoring gunsmith. Tom+EtR not out of the question.
@Axel...
Yeah seer finds wolves gunsmith finds people with guns.
ETR has all but claimed scum at this point. If the answer was that important he'd have found it by now because I've already answered. Instead he's sitting around pissing and moaning and not engaging the game. He's scum caught for the wrong reasons which is why he's paralyzed. He wants to try and get into an argument with me to discredit whatever reasons he thinks I have. He's going about this entire thing with a guilty mindset because he thought he was caught.
And I see tomoger also ignoring gunsmith. Tom+EtR not out of the question.
@Axel...
Yeah seer finds wolves gunsmith finds people with guns.
I thought the gunsmith gave someone a gun I.E. Turned them into a 1-shot vig. The more you know.
And to say I'm paralyzed is a bit of hyperbole. I've got questions out to both Tapping Stones and Wildfire. TS hasn't posted since I asked him so I'm waiting for his response. I'm also interested in Seppel following up on his claim of Antny having a scum slip in his post as I don't see it after multiple re-reads of his most recent post.
Alright, I'll admit it: imabusinessman is probably telling the truth after all. If it was made up, voluntarily adopting a less useful, harder-to-fake role makes no sense.
How is that indicative of being scum and not just being angry?
I'll admit, I haven't gone through TS's posts with a fine-tooth comb, but the posts in question don't sound angry. They just sound blandly accusatory. Quotes like this:
Quote from TappingStones, #113 »
YOur currently the only player that seems to be reacting with such hostility and I really want to know why. Maybe it's something that will help me clear you as town later, maybe it will lead to you being caught as scum. It's presently unclear.
Alright, I'll admit it: imabusinessman is probably telling the truth after all. If it was made up, voluntarily adopting a less useful, harder-to-fake role makes no sense.
Though thinking about it some more I realize he could still be a mafia. Definitely unlikely he's lying about his abilities, anyway.
ETR has all but claimed scum at this point. If the answer was that important he'd have found it by now because I've already answered. Instead he's sitting around pissing and moaning and not engaging the game. He's scum caught for the wrong reasons which is why he's paralyzed. He wants to try and get into an argument with me to discredit whatever reasons he thinks I have. He's going about this entire thing with a guilty mindset because he thought he was caught.
are you talking about the reason you gave that his predecessor was "too tryhard"? that seems pretty weak. is that really all youre basing this on?
why are you turning it in to you vs him?
and why are you talking about being discredited? did you forget youre supposed to be pretending to be town and therefore dont actually know anything?
that said, EtR's reactions havent looked great. not damning, but not great.
ETR has all but claimed scum at this point. If the answer was that important he'd have found it by now because I've already answered. Instead he's sitting around pissing and moaning and not engaging the game. He's scum caught for the wrong reasons which is why he's paralyzed. He wants to try and get into an argument with me to discredit whatever reasons he thinks I have. He's going about this entire thing with a guilty mindset because he thought he was caught.
are you talking about the reason you gave that his predecessor was "too tryhard"? that seems pretty weak. is that really all youre basing this on?
why are you turning it in to you vs him?
and why are you talking about being discredited? did you forget youre supposed to be pretending to be town and therefore dont actually know anything?
that said, EtR's reactions havent looked great. not damning, but not great.
FYI-I'm doing a massive reread right now. Will have a lot of things to talk about. Might be a day or two. Found some things I overlooked and see some points I previously dismissed.
But I wanted to comment that Tom is being hilariously transparent which I think is a plus at this point. Truly low hanging fruit. We definitely have stronger scum targets than him today.
Did you miss the part where I said "Consider my vote on DoTArchon"?
I feel the AtE in this post, but something about it bugs me. Kind of like how Wheat tried to explain his bad posts in FF2 Mafia.
AtE?
Bad posts? If the point of the game is to ask questions and cast suspicion, then how are my posts bad if that's what I'm trying to do? Maybe it would be better if I'm lynched. All I seem to be doing is distracting you from finding actual scum. I saw your comment of your vote should be considered to be on me, but why not just vote and get it over with.
Responding to Seppel's 310:
What's the catch on Antny? I just see him trying to scumhunt, I just don't agree with the case he has (on Tomsloger).
As for Oceanblack and TappingStones, you don't just call someone a liar and not vote with it. A town mindset wouldn't say "you're lying but that doesn't mean you're scum". It sounds like a scum statement, because only scum would know the truth. If you're not lynching all liars, you're likely not town.
Dot is scum. Tordek probably town which makes me real sad.
Why do you think I'm scum? You've quoted the same post that Seppel did when he called me scum, but without providing reasons for why it stands out to you.
You're misrepping the situation.
Let's force the governor to prove their claim/=wanting a no lynch.
Asking the governor for their opinion of a possible lynch candidate is not suspicious. And you're going to have to explain why in a way that's better than "it feels off".
[quote from="Rodemy »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/645040-mafia-classic-wolves-vs-mafia-day-1-blood-moon?comment=179"] Oh Govnah, what are your thoughts on this wagon?
That last comment seems especially off to me./quote]
What felt off to me was that instead of referring to Nachos directly, he used a phrase that to me seemed very sarcastic. Rodemy even admitted that rereading his post he can see how I thought he was pushing for Nachos to prove the claim.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
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2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Several people have pointed out that they believe EtR scumslipped, and I concur. Why am I the only one voting him?
would you like to share? i dont think he looks good, but dont see a "slip"
is it the thing antny said about him ignoring the seer part or imab's claim?
would you like to share? i dont think he looks good, but dont see a "slip"
is it the thing antny said about him ignoring the seer part or imab's claim?
Not ignoring Seer, he focused specifically on it, ignoring the Gunsmith part.
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@Necarg ANSWER my question from #118...I'm still waiting.
*sarcasm*Good job on telling time*sarcasm*
I got my first bit of internet available free time, so I'll humor you.
I don't like GJ's original plan because I feel that town can lynch scum D1, which is arguably better than a no-lynch to let PR's figure it out. It should be obvious. This seems normal for GJ though, so he's probably town.
On the second question, read most of my D1's. I don't typically have solid reads D1 and I typically note that (Even in BDM my reads were all over the place and unclear.). It's not indicative of my alignment.
More within a day or two.
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@iamabusinessman: Right in the beginning of the game, when you were asked why you claimed, you said "because WIFOM". Why is your claim WIFOM? Is making a WIFOM claim something town would do so early in a game?
Also, 1 shot of each sounds to me like a very underpowered role. Even if your target is scum there's a 50% chance you use the wrong ability on them.
@Seppel: Where do you see a scum slip from Antny? I've reread his posts but I'm not seeing anything that jumps out at me.
The gunsmith part is irrelevant to the conversation at this point. My concern is that this post does not have any reason for voting or he's attempting to use his claim as his reasoning for voting me. I'm attempting to clarify and hold someone accountable for their vote.
EtR you've played enough mafia games now to know that voting without reason it is pretty common - especially on page 1.
He seems more interested in appearing town that actually being town. For instance, he only made a case in 232 because Rodemy pointed out how he hadn't yet. Then said case is just a number of points seem fairly null, more like he quickly ISOed one his scumread, and then put everything he found into a post to make it look like a case. There is not a single thing there would actually make you scumread imab.
really? not a single thing?
Really.
and yes, i did iso my scumread. it wasnt quick, but that was what i did. sorry i was... too thorough?
My apologies, I guess I underestimated the amount of effort it must have taken you to ISO someone on page 5.
And yes, clearly when I complained about there not being a single thing that would actually point to imab being scum, I was subtly having a go at you for being too thorough. So apology accepted.
He's claimed two shots which both teams are afraid of. Lynching any decent PR like this is essentially saving a scumteam a kill. Do I really need to tell you why helping scum is bad for town?
but at the very least, his claim means he's certainly town until/unless we reach a point where a 2-shot cop that can't even cop right half the time doesn't fit in the setup.
I think your time might be better spent looking for the mindset of players that we don't have strong reason to believe are town from their claim.
sure, if you believe him. i will admit i didnt look up either of those roles to find out what they actually did.
though i have to say, if seer is for wolves only, that could easily be a scum ability.
I have no reason not to believe him. And more importantly why the hell did you not look up those roles. It took me like 10 second to find them on the mafiascum wiki (so I guess maybe like a minute tops on google).
You were thorough in your case on imab and didn't even have time for that.
Now at least I can certain your talking crap. Back on the wagon I go.
Let's force the governor to prove their claim/=wanting a no lynch.
Asking the governor for their opinion of a possible lynch candidate is not suspicious. And you're going to have to explain why in a way that's better than "it feels off".
Not ignoring Seer, he focused specifically on it, ignoring the Gunsmith part.
sorry, got that backwards. but he did say he thought gunsmith was an attack role.
obviously he could be lying about that and just trying to get out of this slip you guys saw.
actually, the fact that hes even defending himself from that accusation makes me think y'all could be right. i certainly wouldnt do that in his shoes
no reason to post this from a town mindset. same problem i have with imabusinessman. fake anger/annoyance and trying to discredit the source and belittle anyone who questions them
@iamabusinessman: Right in the beginning of the game, when you were asked why you claimed, you said "because WIFOM". Why is your claim WIFOM? Is making a WIFOM claim something town would do so early in a game?
EtR you've played enough mafia games now to know that voting without reason it is pretty common - especially on page 1.
thats pretty clearly not whats happening though.
@antny clearly we disagree on imab. the difference here is that im willing to consider arguments contrary to my opinion, even going as far as agreeing with imab up there^.
the statement "There is not a single thing there would actually make you scumread imab." is an obvious falsity, since even if you dont agree there are things in there that made me scumread imab. is it really so unreasonable?
and what the hell is the point of looking up what gunsmith and seer do? hes either lying or not. and if he is telling the truth, he could still be scum, he might survive to use them, he might get useful information, he might share it with us.
why care until that happens?
I have a pocket list of people who should be copped/vigged due to how worthless it is to tackle them head-on.
Fun! I have one of those two. I even used it in my last game.
I'm not sure what's more frustrating to read, Antny's blatant lack of desire to provide content or Tom's attempt to provide content that's just saying "WORdS WoRDS WORnDS WORtS WORkS WiRDS WORlDS WORlDS WORmS WeRDS"
@All I despise Tom's characterization of Tapping in Predator. Tapping was very transparent and not trying to coerce anyone into doing things. He made some weird moves at the end of the game that got him lynched as VT, mostly out of paranoia. I think he's playing a little more aggressive, but I can't differentiate between it being "new player getting comfortable", "new player with their first ability" and "new player playing first game as scum".
I don't know if I agree about the ETR slip. I think it's confirmation bias rather than an actual slip.
I don't like any of the current wagons and I don't have enough information to start one of my own. ETR is being voted based on a slip, Necarg based off of some frustration that I think is genuine and Tapping is gaining steam because ???. Also for a game this size it feel like way too few people are talking.
It's been 4 days since Hunt promised a quote wall
Nacho hasn't posted in 5 days.
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@jobie eventually, im gonna start to think you dont like me.
i dont really think this game is even comparable to that last one as far as inactive players go. after hunt, you are the next biggest lurker.
re:tappingstones "not trying to coerce anyone into doing things"
wait, what? what about hookerpunch? and the thing with wildfire at the end?
he spent almost as many posts in that game trying to coerce people as you did promising future content and announcing your v/las
youre both the same person you were in predator.
I went back and looked closer at TappingStones to see if that one post I didn't like was an outlier or not, and it wasn't. TappingStones whole style of play is rubbing me wrong and he's doing a number of suspect things:
He started the game agreeing with someone (Nacho?) that Tomsloger was playing different in this game than in his last one. The implication here is that this is suspicious, but I don't like the way it's done. Because difference in playstyle is NOT actually indicative of much of anything. MAYBE it indicates a different kind of role than the one you had before, but maybe not, and it definitely doesn't indicate a different alignment. But that's really his only point about Tom. "He's playing differently."
Then he gets into a spat with Oceansblack about whether Oceansblack is being too insulting to other players. This also is completely non-alignment indicative, and TappingStones seems to know it, but keeps harping on it. He even flatly accuses Oceansblack of lying, but at the very same time says "now this doesn't mean you are scum..." What's even going on here? This isn't scum-hunting. It's some kind of bizarre confrontational style which reaches no conclusions at all.
Then he finally votes Tom, but, again, the reason appears strictly to be based on this supposed difference in play-style from this game and the last. Which is a terrible (but easy) reason to vote.
This vote is quickly abandoned, however, to vote Antny, for not putting in enough effort. And then there's the post that first caught my eye, where he even says that he's not trying to lynch Antny, but just to make him put in more effort. Another thing I didn't like about that post was how he used the Royal "We" in responding to Nacho - i.e. "It's not just me who feels this way...I'm with someone else on this...WE both feel this way..." It's too buddy-buddy. He's shielding himself and also giving himself an out to scum-hunting. Because he's voting on principle or something. And exactly what kind of pressure do you think you're going to put on someone to post when you are saying at the exact same time you vote them that you don't want to lynch them?
There's a claim that this is TappingStones style - to try and put pressure on the lurkers early - which I have no idea if that's true or not. But even if that is supposedly true, I don't actually see him doing much of this at all in this game. He's not pressuring anyone, lurker or not. He's not scumhunting. He's made some insinuations against a couple of people, and argued a completely irrelevant issue, but given no strong opinions.
This last post is typical:
Looking into Necarg, Imabusinessman and Rodemy.
Anyone want to tell me there main thoughts on them while I do my reread?
He's "looking into" them, without stating any actual opinions, and at the same time trying to get other people to give their opinions - which I guess he can then crib off of if it suits his game?
Nothing good going on here.
Unvote Xyre;
Vote: TappingStones
I intend to do a close read of TomsLoger next. And then *shudder* maybe Rodemy.
Keeping this for records. I think you made a great point, but I want to watch him more carefully for tomorrow.
@Tom Get your vote on Buisnessman. His play makes no sense if he was scum, and if he is false claiming, there is a chance he might be cross killed anyway.
Quote from Wildfire »
To be fair, Seer is not often seen on this site since most of our games have Mafia and not Werewolves. But this is a good catch. Vote EtR
Do you mind explaining how you understood EtR's confusion, and in the same breath, think it is a catch?
Quote from Xyre »
Though thinking about it some more I realize he could still be a mafia. Definitely unlikely he's lying about his abilities, anyway.
Same thing. He will either help us, or be killed off. No reason to even consider him for lynch.
First, since it apparently didn't count unvote no-lynch, Vote Necarg. Let us see Negarg's posts:
Quote from »
@imabusinessman: Can you seer during the day?
I don't like GJ's plan, but I do understand his reasoning and think that it's genuine.
I don't really have any clear reads at the moment.
He seems like he is trying hard to buddy me, and says he doesn't like my plan, but doesn't explain why. I don't know why he felt the need to include the "no clear reads" either as it was post 58. I don't think anyone had any clear reads.
1. Yeah, I wouldn't (and I'm pretty sure Tordeck wouldn't) give myself a large posting restriction if I didn't actually have one.
@ Tordeck: Are you vanilla other than your posting restriction? Abba for yes, Adele for no.
Very subtle fishing attempt on Tordeck. Why would Tordeck having a PR matter at all to his posting restriction?
Quote from Necarg »
I don't like GJ's original plan because I feel that town can lynch scum D1, which is arguably better than a no-lynch to let PR's figure it out. It should be obvious. This seems normal for GJ though, so he's probably town.
You originally said that to you, my proposal felt genuine. Now you subtly changed it to being autonomous. Which is it?
Quote from Necarg »
I quoted you instead of people who voted me because I don't give a crap that 2 people are voting me. I have a null read on Xyre, and a town read on Nacho, so I didn't feel the need to quote one of them. tl;dr version: 2 << 10, so I don't care.
Read this post, and read it again. It feels like he is trying to overcompensate after his last two games: True Name and BOTAS mafia he was caught for caring about votes too much.
@Tom again
he spent almost as many posts in that game trying to coerce people as you did promising future content and announcing your v/las
youre both the same person you were in predator.
Who is the "he" in this quote, and is your vote on this person?
Who is the "he" in this quote, and is your vote on this person?
i must be way less clear than i think i am. i am talking about tappingstones. you can tell from what comes before.
and no. i am not convinced tapping is town, but i dont really agree with the case against him.
and i get that you don't agree with me on imab, and you can try to talk me out of it if youd like. but im not going to change my vote because "he might be cross-killed anyway"
thats terrible.
*breaks out his quote-block machete* ...thanks for the help? Does him "finally" scumhunting jive with his town play? Because it seemed (again, from my research) like he's faster out of the gates, and more original, when he actually cares to find scum. A) If I can defend against the criticism, doesn't that suggest my points are valid?
B) There's a name for this kind of analysis: "forest for the trees". Don't consider the word in context; consider its meaning alone, and find a theory to explain it alone. Skimmed the first ten or so pages of Bravely Default (town), True Name (scum), and [ongoing games]. I was sure there was another game he was in, but apparently not. Of course not. That might require you to put in some effort. You might pull a muscle.
Seriously? He said them in the goddamn post you quoted!
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@Seppel:I confirm that Necarg was not in Predator.
When I'm not in class, I'll try to get some content out. I haven't been able to get a good look at this game outside of passively skimming the thread to see where things are going.
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I explained my reasoning here:
And Rodemy responded here:
I've only been playing for about 2 months, my first game (a basic at Mafiascum) hasn't even finished yet. I'm trying to keep up with everything happening in here but I'm feeling quite lost. I've read a few older completed games but I'm very much not a 'Meta' person. I keep rereading the thread looking for things I can work with but it's a bit overwhelming when the one thing I do go after sets several people (You, Gentleman Johnny and iamabusinessman (whatever his reasons are...)) after me as scum.
That's how I scumhunt. I find what to me looks like inconsistencies and shine a spotlight on them. Right now I'm too afraid to move on anything else because all I've managed to do in this game so far is look like scum. I do find it odd though that not a single person who has called me scum is voting for me. Why is that?
i had a scum read on him for a decent chunk of my time alive in that game, for several of the same reasons. and he was town.
it is certainly possible that he is new scum actively trying to replicate his town game. there are, after all, 8 players from that game in this one not including tappingstones. it would be a brilliant play. that would even explain why youre reading him as insincere.
i'm still townreading him slightly, but i just wanted to talk about the world in which he is scum. thats how its possible.
also, good luck on your upcoming close reads. i post a lot and rodemy is, well, rodemy
and now for my responses to imab and are you going to tell us why at some point? is it about him focusing on you being a seer? because he asked a fairly pointed question about that and you havent answered i actually just went back to check this. and its, frankly, all untrue.
i started with the mild scum read of rodemy, and then said i couldnt read him and moved to my "meh" list.
and ive interacted with him so many times. like, more than i thought.
we had that exchange where i kept answering his question to wildfire and he got mad. and we talked about how governor is such a bad role.
how are you even trying to make this point? lets just say it here.
it was a case against you. and a vote for you.
i just want to be clear i did. what am i supposed to see? heres 181 and 94 to make it easier.
ummmm. no. what?
vote imabusinessman a thousand more times
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We didn't all play predator mafia.
you can look if you want, all i'm saying is that his play in this game seems totally in character to me.
i will certainly concede it is possible he is scum. but i do think its noteworthy that 8 people in this game DID play in predator mafia, and none of us are on this wagon.
Imab claims 1 shot seer, 1 shot gunsmith. EtR seemed to only be concerned about the seer half, which points to him being a werewolf.
Oh a not-so-subtle dig, how cute. But seriously I'm making the effort to post (apologies that there may have been a couple of days when I didn't post, we all know how crucial the early day one rvs stage is ). If you don't like the lack of reasons then the townie thing to do would be to ask. You seem more concerned with throwing mud at me then determining my alignment.
But I did just that. I gave you ideas and you said you weren't interested in what I thought. You can't turn around now and pretend that actually you did care about my thoughts.
He seems more interested in appearing town that actually being town. For instance, he only made a case in 232 because Rodemy pointed out how he hadn't yet. Then said case is just a number of points seem fairly null, more like he quickly ISOed one his scumread, and then put everything he found into a post to make it look like a case. There is not a single thing there would actually make you scumread imab.
Not really.
what?! why not?[/quote]
He's claimed two shots which both teams are afraid of. Lynching any decent PR like this is essentially saving a scumteam a kill. Do I really need to tell you why helping scum is bad for town?
To be fair, Seer is not often seen on this site since most of our games have Mafia and not Werewolves. But this is a good catch. Vote EtR
(Of note, I think it's unlikely that the town has any roles that would use a Gun, like standard Vigilante or Paranoid Gun Owner, as that would break the symmetry of Gunsmith/Seer).
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I think Antny might have just slipped as scum.
How is that indicative of being scum and not just being angry? Same question above, to you. It seems my memory of Necarg is mistaken. I thought he was scum in True Name. This isn't like anything I've seen of him before.
Whatever. Somebody cop Necarg.
Dude that's what I just did. Circular conversation.
Oh. I was rushed and didn't ask the question correctly:
@GJ: Why vote Necarg instead of DoTArchon? Thanks (though irrelevant now) Did you miss the part where I said "Consider my vote on DoTArchon"?
I feel the AtE in this post, but something about it bugs me. Kind of like how Wheat tried to explain his bad posts in FF2 Mafia. +1
The gunsmith part is irrelevant to the conversation at this point. My concern is that this post does not have any reason for voting or he's attempting to use his claim as his reasoning for voting me. I'm attempting to clarify and hold someone accountable for their vote.
This seems vacuous. While he doesn't spell out the reason for voting, much can be inferred from the fact that he did it in response to the post he quoted. I'll leave it up to him to elaborate his mindset there.
I don't know why he chose to claim at that juncture (I certainly wouldn't have in his position), but at the very least, his claim means he's certainly town until/unless we reach a point where a 2-shot cop that can't even cop right half the time doesn't fit in the setup.
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Re: the bolded - That's all I've been asking for...
Now I see some people suggesting that "Seer" is for "Werewolves" (i.e. that one scum team specifically) and that "Gunsmith" is for "Mafia" (i.e. the other scum group). Which is not something I had considered. Frankly, that makes the role a lot less useful if that's what it is.
So @iamabusinessman: is that what your role means?
I think your time might be better spent looking for the mindset of players that we don't have strong reason to believe are town from their claim.
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and yes, i did iso my scumread. it wasnt quick, but that was what i did. sorry i was... too thorough?
sure, if you believe him.
i will admit i didnt look up either of those roles to find out what they actually did.
though i have to say, if seer is for wolves only, that could easily be a scum ability.
What are your strong reasons for believing him town, exactly? I haven't really seen any behaviors that support that besides his "claim".
ETR has all but claimed scum at this point. If the answer was that important he'd have found it by now because I've already answered. Instead he's sitting around pissing and moaning and not engaging the game. He's scum caught for the wrong reasons which is why he's paralyzed. He wants to try and get into an argument with me to discredit whatever reasons he thinks I have. He's going about this entire thing with a guilty mindset because he thought he was caught.
And I see tomoger also ignoring gunsmith. Tom+EtR not out of the question.
@Axel...
Yeah seer finds wolves gunsmith finds people with guns.
I thought the gunsmith gave someone a gun I.E. Turned them into a 1-shot vig. The more you know.
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I'll admit, I haven't gone through TS's posts with a fine-tooth comb, but the posts in question don't sound angry. They just sound blandly accusatory. Quotes like this:
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Though thinking about it some more I realize he could still be a mafia. Definitely unlikely he's lying about his abilities, anyway.
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are you talking about the reason you gave that his predecessor was "too tryhard"? that seems pretty weak. is that really all youre basing this on?
why are you turning it in to you vs him?
and why are you talking about being discredited? did you forget youre supposed to be pretending to be town and therefore dont actually know anything?
that said, EtR's reactions havent looked great. not damning, but not great.
FYI-I'm doing a massive reread right now. Will have a lot of things to talk about. Might be a day or two. Found some things I overlooked and see some points I previously dismissed.
But I wanted to comment that Tom is being hilariously transparent which I think is a plus at this point. Truly low hanging fruit. We definitely have stronger scum targets than him today.
I'll give you all my reads ASAP.
AtE?
Bad posts? If the point of the game is to ask questions and cast suspicion, then how are my posts bad if that's what I'm trying to do? Maybe it would be better if I'm lynched. All I seem to be doing is distracting you from finding actual scum. I saw your comment of your vote should be considered to be on me, but why not just vote and get it over with.
What's the catch on Antny? I just see him trying to scumhunt, I just don't agree with the case he has (on Tomsloger).
As for Oceanblack and TappingStones, you don't just call someone a liar and not vote with it. A town mindset wouldn't say "you're lying but that doesn't mean you're scum". It sounds like a scum statement, because only scum would know the truth. If you're not lynching all liars, you're likely not town.
You're misrepping the situation.
Let's force the governor to prove their claim/=wanting a no lynch.
Asking the governor for their opinion of a possible lynch candidate is not suspicious. And you're going to have to explain why in a way that's better than "it feels off".
"Explain why you think so in a way that's better than "it feels off".
That last comment seems especially off to me./quote]
What felt off to me was that instead of referring to Nachos directly, he used a phrase that to me seemed very sarcastic. Rodemy even admitted that rereading his post he can see how I thought he was pushing for Nachos to prove the claim.
My "govnah" post was to get his thoughts on the wagon. I called him govnah because i thought it was funny.
Off to read.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Votecount:
No Lynch (1): Gentleman Johnny
EtR (2): imabusinessman, Wildfire393
imabusinessman (3): Necarg, Tordeck, tomsloger
Necarg (2): Xyre, Nachomamma8
Antny223 (1): Rodemy
Rodemy (1): Antny223
TappingStones (2): Axelrod, Zionite
With 18 alive, it takes 10 to lynch.
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is it the thing antny said about him ignoring the seer part or imab's claim?
TBH, I'm voting the slot.
UNVOTE: OCEANBLACK
VOTE: EtR
@IABM-Would you be willing to use your ability to one shot ETR?
@Necarg ANSWER my question from #118...I'm still waiting.
Long post in the morning.
Not ignoring Seer, he focused specifically on it, ignoring the Gunsmith part.
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*sarcasm*Good job on telling time*sarcasm*
I got my first bit of internet available free time, so I'll humor you.
I don't like GJ's original plan because I feel that town can lynch scum D1, which is arguably better than a no-lynch to let PR's figure it out. It should be obvious. This seems normal for GJ though, so he's probably town.
On the second question, read most of my D1's. I don't typically have solid reads D1 and I typically note that (Even in BDM my reads were all over the place and unclear.). It's not indicative of my alignment.
More within a day or two.
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Also, 1 shot of each sounds to me like a very underpowered role. Even if your target is scum there's a 50% chance you use the wrong ability on them.
@Seppel: Where do you see a scum slip from Antny? I've reread his posts but I'm not seeing anything that jumps out at me.
EtR you've played enough mafia games now to know that voting without reason it is pretty common - especially on page 1.
Really.
My apologies, I guess I underestimated the amount of effort it must have taken you to ISO someone on page 5.
And yes, clearly when I complained about there not being a single thing that would actually point to imab being scum, I was subtly having a go at you for being too thorough. So apology accepted.
I have no reason not to believe him. And more importantly why the hell did you not look up those roles. It took me like 10 second to find them on the mafiascum wiki (so I guess maybe like a minute tops on google).
You were thorough in your case on imab and didn't even have time for that.
Now at least I can certain your talking crap. Back on the wagon I go.
vote Tomslogger
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Hello. For the three of you concurrently...
What is your interpretation of the below sentence...
Secondary inquiry...
What do you think is the purpose of "say something of substance" in the above sentence?
obviously he could be lying about that and just trying to get out of this slip you guys saw.
actually, the fact that hes even defending himself from that accusation makes me think y'all could be right. i certainly wouldnt do that in his shoes no reason to post this from a town mindset. same problem i have with imabusinessman. fake anger/annoyance and trying to discredit the source and belittle anyone who questions them this point seems familiar to me... thats pretty clearly not whats happening though.
@antny clearly we disagree on imab. the difference here is that im willing to consider arguments contrary to my opinion, even going as far as agreeing with imab up there^.
the statement "There is not a single thing there would actually make you scumread imab." is an obvious falsity, since even if you dont agree there are things in there that made me scumread imab. is it really so unreasonable?
and what the hell is the point of looking up what gunsmith and seer do? hes either lying or not. and if he is telling the truth, he could still be scum, he might survive to use them, he might get useful information, he might share it with us.
why care until that happens?
Wonder what would happen if that same player was lynched.
Catchup notes.
Strikes against Rodemy and Tapping on Page 5. (Don't feel like quoting)
Fun! I have one of those two. I even used it in my last game.
I'm not sure what's more frustrating to read, Antny's blatant lack of desire to provide content or Tom's attempt to provide content that's just saying "WORdS WoRDS WORnDS WORtS WORkS WiRDS WORlDS WORlDS WORmS WeRDS"
@All I despise Tom's characterization of Tapping in Predator. Tapping was very transparent and not trying to coerce anyone into doing things. He made some weird moves at the end of the game that got him lynched as VT, mostly out of paranoia. I think he's playing a little more aggressive, but I can't differentiate between it being "new player getting comfortable", "new player with their first ability" and "new player playing first game as scum".
I don't know if I agree about the ETR slip. I think it's confirmation bias rather than an actual slip.
I don't like any of the current wagons and I don't have enough information to start one of my own. ETR is being voted based on a slip, Necarg based off of some frustration that I think is genuine and Tapping is gaining steam because ???. Also for a game this size it feel like way too few people are talking.
It's been 4 days since Hunt promised a quote wall
Nacho hasn't posted in 5 days.
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i dont really think this game is even comparable to that last one as far as inactive players go. after hunt, you are the next biggest lurker.
re:tappingstones "not trying to coerce anyone into doing things"
wait, what? what about hookerpunch? and the thing with wildfire at the end?
he spent almost as many posts in that game trying to coerce people as you did promising future content and announcing your v/las
youre both the same person you were in predator.
Keeping this for records. I think you made a great point, but I want to watch him more carefully for tomorrow.
@Tom Get your vote on Buisnessman. His play makes no sense if he was scum, and if he is false claiming, there is a chance he might be cross killed anyway.
Do you mind explaining how you understood EtR's confusion, and in the same breath, think it is a catch?
Same thing. He will either help us, or be killed off. No reason to even consider him for lynch.
First, since it apparently didn't count unvote no-lynch, Vote Necarg. Let us see Negarg's posts:
He seems like he is trying hard to buddy me, and says he doesn't like my plan, but doesn't explain why. I don't know why he felt the need to include the "no clear reads" either as it was post 58. I don't think anyone had any clear reads.
198
Very subtle fishing attempt on Tordeck. Why would Tordeck having a PR matter at all to his posting restriction?
You originally said that to you, my proposal felt genuine. Now you subtly changed it to being autonomous. Which is it?
Read this post, and read it again. It feels like he is trying to overcompensate after his last two games: True Name and BOTAS mafia he was caught for caring about votes too much.
@Tom again
Who is the "he" in this quote, and is your vote on this person?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
and no. i am not convinced tapping is town, but i dont really agree with the case against him.
and i get that you don't agree with me on imab, and you can try to talk me out of it if youd like. but im not going to change my vote because "he might be cross-killed anyway"
thats terrible.