The more I think about it, the more I like giving IMAB one more chance by having my gift recipient shoot him. Odds are good either Dota is the only scum roleblocker (and should target exactly the person we tell him to, or we will lynch him), or there is no scum roleblocker; either way, if IMAB shows up alive tomorrow, we know he's scum and can hang him. (I trust my gift recipients completely, so even if they die, we should trust them to have played correctly.)
Antny has played consistently badly this game; that shouldn't even be up for debate (Seppel notwithstanding, because Seppel's been wrong about everything all game, so why stop now). I'll refer you to my PBPA of him. And lynching him and shooting IMAB either finishes off the werewolves or gives us an actually confirmed townie. That's a win-win in my book.
Nacho, did you ever answer who you will refuse to lynch?
Quote from Seppel »
The thing that gets me is that Nacho was going to confirm Imab's alignment, and Dota prevented that from happening. It doesn't speak to Imab's alignment, because Dota could just be trying to reduce the number of confirmed townies. But it definitely speaks to Dota's alignment.
Literally this.
Quote from Dota »
When I made the first claim I knew I would have to claim my actual role eventually, so I decided I'd wait until we had everyone's claims so as not to distract the game from completing it first.
Are you saying you knew the second you made your post, you were mistaken?
Yes, and I admitted as much and explained why I did it when I revealed my actual role.
Quote from Xyre »
Either way, it makes no sense to lynch the person who could not be scum without imab also being scum first. Even if you discount everything else I've said in exhaustive defense of Dota, that should be plain as day.
If I reread correctly, Dota is only werewolf cleared. You know from Tom that IMAB is not mafia, how is it not possible that IMAB could be town, and Dota mafia?
Quote from Nacho »
People who are around, engage me about DoT: if he is Mafia Roleblocker, I have no idea why he doesn't just shut up and block me quietly. His thought process about thinking his role was scummy and fakeclaiming jailkeeper instead makes sense based on his experience with mafia so far (newbie setup; roleblockers are always mafia and jailkeepers are always town). I don't believe a derp is impossible. I don't believe he'd immediately switch his claim because too many protective roles, that's dumb.
That would be the optimal play as scum, but as he has shown, Dota is not making the optimal play if he is town either. I don't get how you are double dipping on not making a good town play = town not making a good scum play = town.
I think lynching imab when we can confirm him as town is not a good plan of action at all - we aren't in a significantly better position if we wipe out werewolves today and making a suboptimal move to bank on that possibility is foolish when it's not a fantastic possibility in the first place.
I want to kill EtR.
The process going through my mind right now is that no one else that I recall has claimed being roleblocked. Meaning that, neither team doesn't has one, or isn't hitting town power roles. If dota flips mafia roleblocker, I probably die tomorrow, meaning you all get to narrow down the field even more. I don't think either team will try gambling to kill Xyre/Nacho with me around, so Xyre gets to gift another person.
TappingStones has claimed VT and Wildfire flipped VT. Speaking of TS, did you see my question earlier about terminology use? In your experience, is that phrasing normal?
@Xyre-I've been suggesting using the gift to clear IABM for more than a week now. You are finally on board with this? I guess better late than never.
I don't like how hard you defend all of these slips from DOTA, I'm not sure he's scum or anything but it seems pretty bad that you've off about so many people this game and you're defending so many mistakes this hard. Your hard-headed play is making it very hard for us to have any chance at taking one one scum team, let alone both.
@Nacho-Who would you absolutely pardon today? I suggest you are conservative with usage.
@GJ-I haven't given Etr case because today I want to consider whether he's more likely mafia or WW. I'm having a hard time believing that DOTA, Xyre and Antny are all town. Can three town players combine to play this poorly? It doesn't add up.
T/S
Tappingstones
Nacho
IABM
GJ
Xyre
Null
Seppel
Axelrod
Scum
Antny
Etr
DOTA
This is sort of where I'm at right now. Is anyone similar to this or am I way off?
@Xyre-I've been suggesting using the gift to clear IABM for more than a week now. You are finally on board with this? I guess better late than never.
I don't like how hard you defend all of these slips from DOTA, I'm not sure he's scum or anything but it seems pretty bad that you've off about so many people this game and you're defending so many mistakes this hard.
@Xyre-I've been suggesting using the gift to clear IABM for more than a week now. You are finally on board with this? I guess better late than never.
I don't like how hard you defend all of these slips from DOTA, I'm not sure he's scum or anything but it seems pretty bad that you've off about so many people this game and you're defending so many mistakes this hard.
[...]
Scum
Antny
Etr DOTA
This. This is why TS is scum.
Are you really this bad at mafia? I refuse to believe someone sucks this bad.
The words you quote "I'm not sure he's scum", what's your point? I have no abilities to watch or no who is scum. I'm not going to play as badly as you and start guaranteeing that certain players are scum. Based on DOTA's many mistakes I have him as a likely scum candidate.
Got anything else to say? I didn't think so...
If you are town here you are easily the worst player I have played with on this site Xyre.
Since apparently I have to explain everything to you people, let's break it down:
Quote from TappingStones »
I don't like how hard you defend all of these slips from DOTA, I'm not sure he's scum or anything but it seems pretty bad that you've off about so many people this game and you're defending so many mistakes this hard.
Two-parter. First, as pointed out above, TS employs the distancing language "I'm not sure he's scum or anything" while still filing Dota at the bottom of the scum list. (In the "most-likely-scum" slot, for that matter, based on putting himself at the top of the town list.) Clearly talking out of both sides of his mouth.
Second, note that he indirectly slimes Dota by sliming me for defending him. It has nothing to do with whether Dota actually is scum (much less motivations or anything concrete about it); the fact that I'm defending Dota hangs him. That's like guilt by association-level logic, except even more deranged, because while it sounds like he's trying very hard to imply I have an agenda, he then files me in his town list. He just says he doesn't like it, which is also classic scum distancing language, especially when used in this context. Everything about these two sentences is contorted and backwards.
(And for what it's worth, let's not forget I was right about tom and right about Sir Chris, but TS and IMAB both subscribe to this meme that I'm playing horribly, so we can't pin that totally on TS.)
@GJ-I haven't given Etr case because today I want to consider whether he's more likely mafia or WW. I'm having a hard time believing that DOTA, Xyre and Antny are all town. Can three town players combine to play this poorly? It doesn't add up.
Again with more vague language, this time argument-by-implication. Also, why can't you case Etr without guessing his alignment? Scum tells are scum tells. This feels like an attempt to avoid doing any work which I could chop into pieces.
On the plus side, this pretty much confirms Antny and TS can't be scum together, for anyone who still thought that was a possibility.
Also, for what it's worth, his town/scum list is really mediocre. He's filed all the power roles in the top section, plus himself, minus Seppel and Axelrod (whom we've already confirmed is a double-voter), and shoved everyone else into the scum list. That's the work of a scum who knows exactly who he can get killed and who he can't.
@Xyre-I've been suggesting using the gift to clear IABM for more than a week now. You are finally on board with this? I guess better late than never.
I don't like how hard you defend all of these slips from DOTA, I'm not sure he's scum or anything but it seems pretty bad that you've off about so many people this game and you're defending so many mistakes this hard.
[...]
Scum
Antny
Etr DOTA
This. This is why TS is scum.
Are you really this bad at mafia? I refuse to believe someone sucks this bad.
The words you quote "I'm not sure he's scum", what's your point? I have no abilities to watch or no who is scum. I'm not going to play as badly as you and start guaranteeing that certain players are scum. Based on DOTA's many mistakes I have him as a likely scum candidate.
Got anything else to say? I didn't think so...
If you are town here you are easily the worst player I have played with on this site Xyre.
Also for what it's worth, I'm bringing posts like this to the council after this game, regardless of your alignment. I said this once, and I'll say it again: if you said things like this to someone in a game I was modding as often as you've said them to me, I'd modkill or replace you.
I'm a big boy who's been on the internet for a long time, so I don't care what you think of me (even if I'm wrong), but if you say this to people other than me, you're going to really piss some people off, which torpedoes games. This isn't behavior that should be tolerated here.
@Xyre-I've been suggesting using the gift to clear IABM for more than a week now. You are finally on board with this? I guess better late than never.
I don't like how hard you defend all of these slips from DOTA, I'm not sure he's scum or anything but it seems pretty bad that you've off about so many people this game and you're defending so many mistakes this hard.
[...]
Scum
Antny
Etr DOTA
This. This is why TS is scum.
Are you really this bad at mafia? I refuse to believe someone sucks this bad.
The words you quote "I'm not sure he's scum", what's your point? I have no abilities to watch or no who is scum. I'm not going to play as badly as you and start guaranteeing that certain players are scum. Based on DOTA's many mistakes I have him as a likely scum candidate.
Got anything else to say? I didn't think so...
If you are town here you are easily the worst player I have played with on this site Xyre.
Also for what it's worth, I'm bringing posts like this to the council after this game, regardless of your alignment. I said this once, and I'll say it again: if you said things like this to someone in a game I was modding as often as you've said them to me, I'd modkill or replace you.
I'm a big boy who's been on the internet for a long time, so I don't care what you think of me (even if I'm wrong), but if you say this to people other than me, you're going to really piss some people off, which torpedoes games. This isn't behavior that should be tolerated here.
I'll be compiling my list as well Xyre. The way you talked to me with personal attacks and to IABM. You have made this game almost impossible to enjoy. Your behavior should not be tolerated and several people have commented multiple times on how you've been acting. I trust IABM is in agreement with me that you have made this more a choir then a fun, leisurely activity.
Oh, no need to do that. I'll wholly admit I'm kind of a jerk.
But at least I'm not a jerk who's using his jerkiness to poison the game so I can win. I'm absolutely confident at least one of you and IMAB is being a jerk strategically, which I personally think should be an infractionable offense, though I'm sure I'm in the minority on that one.
For example, while I'd happily say someone isn't a good player, I'd never say they're a bad player solely to throw shade on their case against me. I normally let in-game bad feelings lie when the game ends, but believe me, if you or IMAB did that this game, I'll make sure there are consequences. This community is decayed enough as it is without you scaring away sensitive souls.
Oh, no need to do that. I'll wholly admit I'm kind of a jerk.
But at least I'm not a jerk who's using his jerkiness to poison the game so I can win. I'm absolutely confident at least one of you and IMAB is being a jerk strategically, which I personally think should be an infractionable offense, though I'm sure I'm in the minority on that one.
For example, while I'd happily say someone isn't a good player, I'd never say they're a bad player solely to throw shade on their case against me. I normally let in-game bad feelings lie when the game ends, but believe me, if you or IMAB did that this game, I'll make sure there are consequences. This community is decayed enough as it is without you scaring away sensitive souls.
Perhaps you should actually wait to see what alignment everyone is. I know you've given yourself no avenue to find out I'm town. You'll see as soon as the game is over how wrong you were and why I've been so frustrated. You said a couple pages ago that you wont even answer my questions. I mean, how am I supposed to take that? I know that I'm VT. Other confirmed town know this too.
Why not at least play a normal game of Mafia? You've called me scum the entire game but you have no case against me, just lingering hurt feelings about earlier slap fights.
What do you mean, why do I care? If he flips town somehow, we want to get a little value out of him. I'm not so arrogant as to believe 100% in my scum read of Chris. Maybe 95.
You said you plan on voting him tomorrow. That implies you are still scum reading him, which makes me curious why at all you care about his result.
/barn this.
What do you mean, why do I care? If he flips town somehow, we want to get a little value out of him. I'm not so arrogant as to believe 100% in my scum read of Chris. Maybe 95.
translation: if he flip town we use result big rock big stick wooga wooga
No caveman, the clever question is why are you dead set on instalynching our information role tomorrow?
@GJ-I haven't given Etr case because today I want to consider whether he's more likely mafia or WW. I'm having a hard time believing that DOTA, Xyre and Antny are all town. Can three town players combine to play this poorly? It doesn't add up.
Point of order, I think ant is town and playing well above what I experienced in Avante Garde.
@Xyre, playing poorly absolutely can be a tell.
For example it's clear that Mafia and WW are inexperience/don't know what the heck they're doing at night.
Between the mafia killing Tordeck and Werewolves killing Zionite, we are dealing with a scum team that doesn't know what they're doing.
This IS a positive for...
Nacho, Seppel, myself and Gentleman Johnny for not being so silly as to make those kills as either team. Not cleared but in favor.
Look at DoTArchon's play. Look at Xyre's play. Definitely makes sense that either of them could have been on teams to make those kills. No question.
Like I said earlier: anyone with experience would have realized that Tordeck was faking his post restriction.
Favors me, Seppel, and Nacho of not being mafia.
Werewolves had no reason whatsoever to kill zionite. Absolutely none.
This is next part is veering into WIFOM so be forewarned...
Anyone with sound reasoning skills would know that if I were WW i would have killed XAyre in order to
1. Eliminate someone who was suspicious of me being WW (although my play should clear me of being ww anyone).
2. The fact that Xyre initially thought I could possibly be Mafia even after I was tomsloger was bad. Then he poo-poo'd the idea of trying to justly/explain which team I was on even after hardcore getting called out for calling me Mafia after I got cleared of being mafia.
3. DoTA screwed up the night actions preventing me from being 100% being cleared of being mafia AND WERWOLF. Not that it really matters since behaviorally I should be cleared of WW anyway.Then proceeds to tunnelvision me. That's awful play from a townie. I just can't see how a townie engages in that behavior.
tl/dr DoTA and Xyre are playing foolishly which lines up perfectly with the poorly thought out nightkills that have taken place.
Necarg replaced out of this game under pressure but didn't replace out of the then current Vanillaville. Replacing out under pressure is a hardcore scumtell among newbies. Your lackluster activity at the start sealed the deal.
He replaced out of this game over the last night of vanillaville, and when the day started the wolves instantly won the game. From his posts it seems like he was very busy and didn't have time for mafia, at least that's my assumption. Btw, if you genuinely believe my effort levels are a measure of town/scum then you know exactly nothing about me. I mean I am all for meta but this is just sloppy and poor. Play better please.
The "play better please" part is what perks up my ears. It makes me think Sir Chris is trying to dissuade his scum buddy from throwing him under the bus.
Fine, TappingStones. Setting aside the irony of complaining about me not casing you when you refuse to do the same for anyone else, I'll give you what you want. I'm trusting you to actually treat my opinions with a modicum of respect. Let's tango.
A PBPA of TS
First post is 88-89. Pretty null - thumbs-upping a Nacho post without adding much. It's already well-established that Tom's deviations from his play in Predator ultimately didn't add up to much, but I can't fault or credit TS for applying that thinking.
113 raises a red flag to me. Tapping seems to be dancing around calling OceanBlack scum for his confrontational manner, even though TS openly associates attitude with alignment. Phrases like "your OMGUS vote on me didn't do any favors" stink to me, as does the passive-condescending tone of the third paragraph. Maybe this is just TS's voice (I haven't read any games of his for this PBPA, and am doing it in order, so I don't have any points of comparison), but it reads very much like someone throwing shade on an opponent without going the extra mile of calling them scum; it's a distant tone characteristic of scum, especially newer scum players, who want to lay groundwork for other people to attack their targets. Same with 115, which also conspicuously trails off without picking a side on OB other than "Bad town or scum?"
Also, apropos of nothing, TS is quick to call what people say to/about him personal attacks, which is just so rich. (I.e. 125 - OceanBlack's post wasn't even remotely insulting, personal or otherwise; the most charged word he used was "nonsensical", and he does have a point there. I can't see what TS is taking offense from. It's only as TS goads him that OB starts getting as angry as he became, e.g. 132.) Anyway. No more references to TS being a jerk from this point out, I promise. I'll bit my tongue until it bleeds if I have to.
Town points for calling out Antny's fake-ironic vote on Tom (230). Not thrilled from him just folding after Seppel chimes in, though. Bad players' bad posts deserve scrutiny even if they're uniformly bad. But that part's a null tell.
287: "Anyone want to tell me there [sic] main thoughts on [Necarg, IMAB, and Rodemy] while I do my reread?" Justifiably mocked at the time. It's a good list of suspects, and I'm interested in TS soliciting opinions on Necarg, but this sounds like part-and-parcel with his "offer a shadow of an opinion and see who will flesh it out for him" approach so far. In other words, suspicious.
It's especially weird in light of 294, in which TS says "I cared enough to comment because I'd like everyone posting and giving their ideas. This way it's harder for scum to hide and easier for townies to identify each other." Which sounds reasonable, except so far TS hasn't really offered a lot of opinions; he's picked up Nacho's mantle about Predator Mafia, and razzed OceanBlack, but he's asked for far more opinions than he's offered. This sounds like a mafia asking for someone to give him another opinion he can glom onto. Let's see if he does that...
Does offer that he'll give some big reads from a reread in 325, which is nice. Does he end up delivering, future me?
Oh, right, the huge post (354). The problem is there's not a lot of new content here; he hashes out a lot of posts, but when you peel away the summaries of the posts themselves, there aren't a lot of opinions. He thinks OB is scum, which we knew; he calls Axelrod poorly-playing town for disagreeing about OB but agreeing about me; he calls me a "walking disaster" even though he seems to agree with me about Necarg; and doesn't really offer any basis at all for calling Dota lean scum. I'm indifferent to this post on balance, because I can see town TS erroneously thinking it's useful, but it's really not (both because near-impossible to read and there aren't many substantial reasons/explanations for any conclusions he draws).
In a similar vein, I can't really count his attacks on certain people for misreading or "tl;dr"ing his big post (378, e.g.), because maybe he just doesn't appreciate how incomprehensible it is to a layperson.
Tom makes a good point about TS's "why are you spending so much time on Hunt" comment (from 380), which TS sidesteps in 385. Why not treat Necarg and Huntzilla the same/react to their lurking the same?
445 is a horrible argument, turning tom re-voting for TS into "a show of fake unvoting for the same person".
A lot of the TS-tomsloger stuff makes my eyes glaze over. They're both misrepresenting the hell out of each other, and pretty much all of the misrepresentations could just as easily come from misplaced righteous anger. Nothing of use is going to come from it, so I'm just gonna slide on.
531: I'm not entirely sure what's going on here, but it looks like TS jumping in to answer a question for GJ, which is interesting. Sure, the original question in 345 was to TS as well, but why is it only being directed to GJ, and why does that make TS suddenly care? It's really weird.
(Also, apropos of nothing, this reminds me again of the point I had about GJ playing both sides of the TS ball way back in 479. GJ's "I think you made a great point, but I want to watch him more carefully for tomorrow" side-step to Axelrod's original casing of TS looks even worse, since it doesn't seem like GJ has ever actually "watched him more carefully". It no longer looks like GJ playing both sides of the ball; it looks like GJ paying lip service to Axelrod's case while filing it in his memory hole.)
Interesting that TS seems to gloss over tomsloger's big catch-up post even though a lot of their reads conflict (me, Dota, Axelrod, OB/Etr, IMAB, and Tapping himself), instead just saying tom's copying TS's method. No clue what that means. Also have no clue why he seems to be sliding away from Dota at this point (see 590); it's not established in his posts. Distracted?
His "I'm not a reliable reader of scum alignment yet" in 594 bothers me for reasons I can't put my finger on. It may well be true, but it's not really apropos to what Dota is asking him; it sounds too preemptory, I guess? Let's see if this goes anywhere.
The condescending deflection in 599 is a big red flag. Tom says he's happy voting TS, and TS mocks him for his poor play in Predator, and in turn the very notion of tom ever figuring out an alignment correctly. Setting aside how much of a j... Sorry, sorry, I promised. It's entirely nonresponsive, is what it is, and it's nonresponsive in a way that seeks only to undermine the suspicion. True, maybe this is just how TS is. But for someone who lords the laws of logic over people, it's uncharacteristically thin on the actual argumentation side.
Also, 600 is a blatantly false mischaracterization. Tom isn't hovering anything, and he's applying quite a bit of pressure. The difference is that TS isn't actually responding to it, and then crowing that tom isn't actually accusing him of anything. To tell the truth, I completely missed this before; it's one of the most brazen moves I've ever seen. So much so that I'm even going to throw in a link so you can see for yourself. http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/645040-mafia-classic-wolves-vs-mafia-day-4-once-revered?comment=600
Now, again, maybe this doesn't mean anything. It could simply be that TS lives in his own little world of illusion. But again, the absurdity of accusing people of using illogic in arguments you disagree with and then pretending their more solid arguments don't actually exist seems too... too self-serving to be "just TS being TS" or TS being so angry about tom as to be blinded by rage. No, he's twisting reality to serve his purposes, and superimposing that image over the real thing. It's too calculated to be a mistake or ordinary lack of self-awareness.
605 continues the farce; now tom is "tunneling" TS. How does that make sense, if he's also "hovering" you? By definition, you can't do both of those things at once. Either you're waiting for someone to fuel your wagon so you don't have to fully commit, or you're pushing someone so hard that you don't have to consider the rest of the world. This strongly feels like TS is just throwing every damaging characterization he can think of at tom until one sticks. And when those don't work, he blames tom for the breakdown in their relationship.
638: wants to see more content from Huntzilla and GJ, but doesn't associate their absence with alignment. Curious to see where this goes.
Sidenote: TS, I wish you wouldn't just quote an entire post and then respond to one single thing within it. (See 669.) It makes it pretty hard to follow the conversation.
674: TS admits that a big part of his accusation of tom is based on "Tom trying to garner a wagon on me", and then spins it around on Dota, insinuating that Dota deliberately ignored that point. More undermining/suspicion-by-implication. Still sleazy.
Calls out Hunt for lurking in 685 (albeit in response to another point), which I like.
Again asking for insights into other players from someone else, in 710. "Let me know which of the players voting me appear to be scum" seems like an attempt to muster allies to his side. And then Chris immediately does so, probably as an attempt to appear town to someone he thinks can give him town cover. Which makes me feel more comfortable, along with TS's consistent scrutiny of Necarg when he was in, in saying TS probably isn't a werewolf. It legitimately seems like the two were using each other at the same time. It reflects worse on Chris than TS, but it's still suspicious for the latter. Their interactions, especially as Day 1 goes on, reads like the two of each other just being happy the other isn't suspecting them. (I'm willing to admit I was very wrong about them being scum-buddies.)
TS's obsession with derailing the wagon on himself and attacking only people attacking him is also noteworthy, and mildly scummy, but he's a new player, so I'm giving him some benefit of the doubt there as to the trend as a whole. The fact that he has accepted a few scum suspects and continually called them such without reaffirming the evidence against them also bothers me, though again, that could just be him. (Nobody continually reiterates why they suspect someone every hundred posts, but TS keeps saying he suspects Etr and me over and over having never really pinned down why, other than that big bulky post the flaws of which I pointed out before.)
No clue where 924 is going. Where did Hunt come into this?
Re: 927. Abridgment, TS, for the love of god.
Another comment about Hunt, saying he should replace out. Hmm.
Puts GJ on his "will not vote for today" list, which is striking. Also puts Antny, Imab, and SC on it. It's a weird-ass list.
The jump onto Huntzilla is a bit abrupt, in 1174. Just two posts earlier (1167) he said "My vote is on Tom. Until the game is over.... I will otherwise sit my vote on Tom until Kingdom Come." Then Nacho makes reference to his Huntzilla case and suddenly TS is all on board with lynching Hunt? Just because Nacho, the guy you hate, says he'd accept that lynch? This is pure bus.
(Yes, I know he's the first vote on Hunt, and that he's made repeated references to Hunt, but those have always been of the form "I wish he'd post more". He's never expressed a strong scum opinion of Hunt, never voted him, never really said anything about him except that he's been lurking. This is a sharp change in tone, coming from out of nowhere. I can't believe that TS "suddenly" realized Hunt was a good lynch candidate after repeatedly and ferociously railing about Tom and Nacho's governorship. Or, rather, I think TS suddenly shifted tone, but only realizing an opportunity to profit.)
(Also, for what it's worth, 1191 also reads like a bus by GJ - criticizing Zionite for voting for Huntzilla for being opportunistic and then voting Huntzilla without even a token stated reason until Axel called him out on it. Seppel notably points this out in 1201, which is amusing. Good job, Seppel. And notably, GJ never responds to Seppel on that one, even though Seppel asked him a point of clarification.)
Also note that TS oscillates between denigrating the Hunt wagon (1226) and critical (in his usual passive manner) of people who are wary of the wagon (1223, re: Axelrod calling Hunt's big post underwhelming). Also, 1226 feels a little too self-conscious in his boy-I-sure-hope-Hunt's-scum sentiment.
Asks SC why he think GJ is town, which again supports my thinking that they're using each other.
1357: "I'm not really in the business of defending myself." :guffaw:
I still find the GJ/TS tag-team defense of SC interesting (1358-1361), as well as the exchange highlighted in 1380 regarding strategies of keeping SC alive. Can't exactly put my finger on what tactical purpose their positions serve, but it does sound like a general resolution that they (whether town or mafia) will keep him alive as long as he serves their purposes. These posts at least suggest the two are on the same team; the buddying doesn't feel as conspicuous as with Sir Chris, but a true convergence of similar interests.
Of course, I have no idea how 1390 fits into this. (TS to GJ: "Ask me some questions, old sport.")
1392: Says he has a "lean town read" on GJ. That sounds strongly to me like a "gentleman's 'lean town'," so to speak. That coupled with the above again makes me think both are scum together. Also, another example of TS jumping into cover GJ. This feels like new scum not realizing the virtues of distancing.
(I'm not the only person finding their relationship suspect - note Zionite's 1412: "Why is Gj not asking TS the same questions when the situation is similar? It can't be as simple as reads=motive can it?")
Finally, to move back in time a bit, one last GJ post:
Nacho said you were the other player he would have pardoned. Even if enough people would rather lynch you. I am getting super sick of all this lurky ridiculousness, and would rather just cull the spot, and probably nail a scum, or a low impact townie anyway.
As far as hunt goes, I realize it is Thanksgiving (hence why my own activity is relatively meh), but the fact that hunt has given a single post in his defense, or an even justification of any of his reads leaves me to believe he is caught scum. I have no qualms waiting until deadline, as long as those not voting him promise to be on to hammer, but the lack of claim, conviction, and little response to the complaints about his one "large" post lead me to believe he is likely scum, although his wagon will probably be little information.
Lynch hunt, move on tomorrow.
This sounds strongly like intra-mafia conversation to me, especially in the wake of 1321 (TS: "I wasn't a huge fan of everyone scurrying over to Hunt after I went after him.")
And holy christ finally Day 1 is over. I'm not doing the rest because this has legitimately taken two hours. You post so goddamn much.
Anyway, tl;dr: TS is too focused on his own survival, too conspicuously evasive of honest criticism (when he's not meeting the criticism with insults) and too indirect in his accusations of players until things escalate, routinely accuses players of saying/doing things they never said/did as the basis for attacks on them, keeps reiterating suspects whom he's never truly substantiated attacks on, and has suspicious interactions with TS (buddying) and GJ (buddy). Oh, and bussed Huntzilla hard and then repeatedly expressed contradictory reservations about it.
MAYBE some of that can be chalked up to personality, or him being new. MAYBE. But definitely not all of it.
I'll get to the rest of the game eventually, but hopefully now you can see what I mean when I say I strongly believe GJ and TS are the mafia.
Fine, TappingStones. Setting aside the irony of complaining about me not casing you when you refuse to do the same for anyone else, I'll give you what you want. I'm trusting you to actually treat my opinions with a modicum of respect. Let's tango.
A PBPA of TS
First post is 88-89. Pretty null - thumbs-upping a Nacho post without adding much. It's already well-established that Tom's deviations from his play in Predator ultimately didn't add up to much, but I can't fault or credit TS for applying that thinking.
113 raises a red flag to me. Tapping seems to be dancing around calling OceanBlack scum for his confrontational manner, even though TS openly associates attitude with alignment. Phrases like "your OMGUS vote on me didn't do any favors" stink to me, as does the passive-condescending tone of the third paragraph. Maybe this is just TS's voice (I haven't read any games of his for this PBPA, and am doing it in order, so I don't have any points of comparison), but it reads very much like someone throwing shade on an opponent without going the extra mile of calling them scum; it's a distant tone characteristic of scum, especially newer scum players, who want to lay groundwork for other people to attack their targets. Same with 115, which also conspicuously trails off without picking a side on OB other than "Bad town or scum?"
As a developing player I'm still very flexible (wary) of my own reads. I'm very aware I could be making a mistake. Unlike players like you and OceanBlack who seem to tunnel others from the beginning and never change their mind about people that they got in arguments with. I found that most of the time when people are scum reading me it was because they didn't like my town or felt I was being mean to them.
Also, apropos of nothing, TS is quick to call what people say to/about him personal attacks, which is just so rich. (I.e. 125 - OceanBlack's post wasn't even remotely insulting, personal or otherwise; the most charged word he used was "nonsensical", and he does have a point there. I can't see what TS is taking offense from. It's only as TS goads him that OB starts getting as angry as he became, e.g. 132.) Anyway. No more references to TS being a jerk from this point out, I promise. I'll bit my tongue until it bleeds if I have to.
If you want to gloss over the personal attacks, baiting and flaming that oceanblack (and yourself) have been guilty of then I don't know what else to say. Like I said, you will see my alignment at the very latest by endgame. Considering that you've put the cart before the horse and already said you think scum doing this is some kind of rules violation, you should be quite concilatory when you see it was VT being frustrated about being tunneled and baited.
Town points for calling out Antny's fake-ironic vote on Tom (230). Not thrilled from him just folding after Seppel chimes in, though. Bad players' bad posts deserve scrutiny even if they're uniformly bad. But that part's a null tell.
287: "Anyone want to tell me there [sic] main thoughts on [Necarg, IMAB, and Rodemy] while I do my reread?" Justifiably mocked at the time. It's a good list of suspects, and I'm interested in TS soliciting opinions on Necarg, but this sounds like part-and-parcel with his "offer a shadow of an opinion and see who will flesh it out for him" approach so far. In other words, suspicious.
I've done this in my other games as town and will continue to do this in all games. There is nothing wrong or scummy with asking others if they see anything in a list of suspects.
It's especially weird in light of 294, in which TS says "I cared enough to comment because I'd like everyone posting and giving their ideas. This way it's harder for scum to hide and easier for townies to identify each other." Which sounds reasonable, except so far TS hasn't really offered a lot of opinions; he's picked up Nacho's mantle about Predator Mafia, and razzed OceanBlack, but he's asked for far more opinions than he's offered. This sounds like a mafia asking for someone to give him another opinion he can glom onto. Let's see if he does that...
Does offer that he'll give some big reads from a reread in 325, which is nice. Does he end up delivering, future me?
Oh, right, the huge post (354). The problem is there's not a lot of new content here; he hashes out a lot of posts, but when you peel away the summaries of the posts themselves, there aren't a lot of opinions. He thinks OB is scum, which we knew; he calls Axelrod poorly-playing town for disagreeing about OB but agreeing about me; he calls me a "walking disaster" even though he seems to agree with me about Necarg; and doesn't really offer any basis at all for calling Dota lean scum. I'm indifferent to this post on balance, because I can see town TS erroneously thinking it's useful, but it's really not (both because near-impossible to read and there aren't many substantial reasons/explanations for any conclusions he draws).
In a similar vein, I can't really count his attacks on certain people for misreading or "tl;dr"ing his big post (378, e.g.), because maybe he just doesn't appreciate how incomprehensible it is to a layperson.
Tom makes a good point about TS's "why are you spending so much time on Hunt" comment (from 380), which TS sidesteps in 385. Why not treat Necarg and Huntzilla the same/react to their lurking the same?
This makes no sense since you've already acknowledged that you are aware of my idea that I don't like lurkers. Spending a lot of time on him is useful in my world because I want to catch lurking scum, which I did, with this very slot.
445 is a horrible argument, turning tom re-voting for TS into "a show of fake unvoting for the same person".
A lot of the TS-tomsloger stuff makes my eyes glaze over. They're both misrepresenting the hell out of each other, and pretty much all of the misrepresentations could just as easily come from misplaced righteous anger. Nothing of use is going to come from it, so I'm just gonna slide on.
531: I'm not entirely sure what's going on here, but it looks like TS jumping in to answer a question for GJ, which is interesting. Sure, the original question in 345 was to TS as well, but why is it only being directed to GJ, and why does that make TS suddenly care? It's really weird.
Have no idea why this is commented on. Literally no reason.
(Also, apropos of nothing, this reminds me again of the point I had about GJ playing both sides of the TS ball way back in 479. GJ's "I think you made a great point, but I want to watch him more carefully for tomorrow" side-step to Axelrod's original casing of TS looks even worse, since it doesn't seem like GJ has ever actually "watched him more carefully". It no longer looks like GJ playing both sides of the ball; it looks like GJ paying lip service to Axelrod's case while filing it in his memory hole.)
Interesting that TS seems to gloss over tomsloger's big catch-up post even though a lot of their reads conflict (me, Dota, Axelrod, OB/Etr, IMAB, and Tapping himself), instead just saying tom's copying TS's method. No clue what that means. Also have no clue why he seems to be sliding away from Dota at this point (see 590); it's not established in his posts. Distracted?
In my opinion Tom doesn't know what he's doing. I'm also quite new and don't know if there's much I can learn from his scatter brain.
His "I'm not a reliable reader of scum alignment yet" in 594 bothers me for reasons I can't put my finger on. It may well be true, but it's not really apropos to what Dota is asking him; it sounds too preemptory, I guess? Let's see if this goes anywhere.
It bothers you that I'm honest about my abilities and things I want to improve about my game? So strange.
The condescending deflection in 599 is a big red flag. Tom says he's happy voting TS, and TS mocks him for his poor play in Predator, and in turn the very notion of tom ever figuring out an alignment correctly. Setting aside how much of a j... Sorry, sorry, I promised. It's entirely nonresponsive, is what it is, and it's nonresponsive in a way that seeks only to undermine the suspicion. True, maybe this is just how TS is. But for someone who lords the laws of logic over people, it's uncharacteristically thin on the actual argumentation side.
Also, 600 is a blatantly false mischaracterization. Tom isn't hovering anything, and he's applying quite a bit of pressure. The difference is that TS isn't actually responding to it, and then crowing that tom isn't actually accusing him of anything. To tell the truth, I completely missed this before; it's one of the most brazen moves I've ever seen. So much so that I'm even going to throw in a link so you can see for yourself. http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/645040-mafia-classic-wolves-vs-mafia-day-4-once-revered?comment=600
How is this one of the most brazen moves you've ever seen? Am I really that daring?
Now, again, maybe this doesn't mean anything. It could simply be that TS lives in his own little world of illusion. But again, the absurdity of accusing people of using illogic in arguments you disagree with and then pretending their more solid arguments don't actually exist seems too... too self-serving to be "just TS being TS" or TS being so angry about tom as to be blinded by rage. No, he's twisting reality to serve his purposes, and superimposing that image over the real thing. It's too calculated to be a mistake or ordinary lack of self-awareness.
Oh now now I'm "too calculating". Do I know what I'm doing or not Xyre? Saying I'm completely lost and making so many bad mistakes and then randomly saying I'm doing something like this is quite a reach, even for you.
605 continues the farce; now tom is "tunneling" TS. How does that make sense, if he's also "hovering" you? By definition, you can't do both of those things at once. Either you're waiting for someone to fuel your wagon so you don't have to fully commit, or you're pushing someone so hard that you don't have to consider the rest of the world. This strongly feels like TS is just throwing every damaging characterization he can think of at tom until one sticks. And when those don't work, he blames tom for the breakdown in their relationship.
638: wants to see more content from Huntzilla and GJ, but doesn't associate their absence with alignment. Curious to see where this goes.
Sidenote: TS, I wish you wouldn't just quote an entire post and then respond to one single thing within it. (See 669.) It makes it pretty hard to follow the conversation.
I'm not sure the best way to reply yet, to be honest. Not sure how to use all the formatting.
674: TS admits that a big part of his accusation of tom is based on "Tom trying to garner a wagon on me", and then spins it around on Dota, insinuating that Dota deliberately ignored that point. More undermining/suspicion-by-implication. Still sleazy.
Calls out Hunt for lurking in 685 (albeit in response to another point), which I like.
Again asking for insights into other players from someone else, in 710. "Let me know which of the players voting me appear to be scum" seems like an attempt to muster allies to his side. And then Chris immediately does so, probably as an attempt to appear town to someone he thinks can give him town cover. Which makes me feel more comfortable, along with TS's consistent scrutiny of Necarg when he was in, in saying TS probably isn't a werewolf. It legitimately seems like the two were using each other at the same time. It reflects worse on Chris than TS, but it's still suspicious for the latter. Their interactions, especially as Day 1 goes on, reads like the two of each other just being happy the other isn't suspecting them. (I'm willing to admit I was very wrong about them being scum-buddies.)
TS's obsession with derailing the wagon on himself and attacking only people attacking him is also noteworthy, and mildly scummy, but he's a new player, so I'm giving him some benefit of the doubt there as to the trend as a whole. The fact that he has accepted a few scum suspects and continually called them such without reaffirming the evidence against them also bothers me, though again, that could just be him. (Nobody continually reiterates why they suspect someone every hundred posts, but TS keeps saying he suspects Etr and me over and over having never really pinned down why, other than that big bulky post the flaws of which I pointed out before.)
I like deflecting wagons from me because I'm town. There is no real case that can be put forward against me because all of my posts in my Mafia history are from town. I've never been scum yet. Later I beg Antny to bring his case against me in the hopes of him seeing his error and joining up with the rest of us.
No clue where 924 is going. Where did Hunt come into this?
Re: 927. Abridgment, TS, for the love of god.
Another comment about Hunt, saying he should replace out. Hmm.
Puts GJ on his "will not vote for today" list, which is striking. Also puts Antny, Imab, and SC on it. It's a weird-ass list.
Care to explain yourself? Why is this striking? Why have you never asked me about any of these things if you think they are so bad? I've felt GJ has played a nervous, cautious game and I even called him out on that (you conveniently leave that post out because it's super damaging to your GJ TS scum team case.
The jump onto Huntzilla is a bit abrupt, in 1174. Just two posts earlier (1167) he said "My vote is on Tom. Until the game is over.... I will otherwise sit my vote on Tom until Kingdom Come." Then Nacho makes reference to his Huntzilla case and suddenly TS is all on board with lynching Hunt? Just because Nacho, the guy you hate, says he'd accept that lynch? This is pure bus.
Nacho is one of my favorite players. Since when do I hate him? I've found him to be one of the most clever and resourceful people on this site.
(Yes, I know he's the first vote on Hunt, and that he's made repeated references to Hunt, but those have always been of the form "I wish he'd post more". He's never expressed a strong scum opinion of Hunt, never voted him, never really said anything about him except that he's been lurking. This is a sharp change in tone, coming from out of nowhere. I can't believe that TS "suddenly" realized Hunt was a good lynch candidate after repeatedly and ferociously railing about Tom and Nacho's governorship. Or, rather, I think TS suddenly shifted tone, but only realizing an opportunity to profit.)
Of course, no credit for being on Hunt...must be a bus. No credit for wanting to wait longer on WF as I openly was against having him as the lynch at that time. You are just ignoring the things that don't fit your tunnel. It's very scummy. It's very lazy. It shows that you are emotionally involved in this fight with me. You don't care about catching bad guys, you only care about eliminating me.
(Also, for what it's worth, 1191 also reads like a bus by GJ - criticizing Zionite for voting for Huntzilla for being opportunistic and then voting Huntzilla without even a token stated reason until Axel called him out on it. Seppel notably points this out in 1201, which is amusing. Good job, Seppel. And notably, GJ never responds to Seppel on that one, even though Seppel asked him a point of clarification.)
Also note that TS oscillates between denigrating the Hunt wagon (1226) and critical (in his usual passive manner) of people who are wary of the wagon (1223, re: Axelrod calling Hunt's big post underwhelming). Also, 1226 feels a little too self-conscious in his boy-I-sure-hope-Hunt's-scum sentiment.
I also don't like how you showed dislike for running up Hunt. He lurked and his catch-up was very bad. It was a fine wagon. The fact that you were against it looks bad.
Asks SC why he think GJ is town, which again supports my thinking that they're using each other.
1357: "I'm not really in the business of defending myself." :guffaw:
I still find the GJ/TS tag-team defense of SC interesting (1358-1361), as well as the exchange highlighted in 1380 regarding strategies of keeping SC alive. Can't exactly put my finger on what tactical purpose their positions serve, but it does sound like a general resolution that they (whether town or mafia) will keep him alive as long as he serves their purposes. These posts at least suggest the two are on the same team; the buddying doesn't feel as conspicuous as with Sir Chris, but a true convergence of similar interests.
Here's the problem. If I was Mafia with GJ we would have happily joined up to kill off SC. I don't want him alive if he isn't on my team. But you can't make a case for me as a ww because I was so against Necarg (as you noted). I liked the idea of giving SC benefit of the doubt because I knew he was a lightning rod for nightkills whether town or a bad guy. I certainly didn't want to mislynch him. You are stuck pinning me as Mafia AND as saying I started a hard wagon against Hunt AFTER I had continually dogged him to participate. Are you serious? I hounded Hunt for lurking and then bused him?
Of course, I have no idea how 1390 fits into this. (TS to GJ: "Ask me some questions, old sport.")
1392: Says he has a "lean town read" on GJ. That sounds strongly to me like a "gentleman's 'lean town'," so to speak. That coupled with the above again makes me think both are scum together. Also, another example of TS jumping into cover GJ. This feels like new scum not realizing the virtues of distancing.
(I'm not the only person finding their relationship suspect - note Zionite's 1412: "Why is Gj not asking TS the same questions when the situation is similar? It can't be as simple as reads=motive can it?")
Finally, to move back in time a bit, one last GJ post:
Nacho said you were the other player he would have pardoned. Even if enough people would rather lynch you. I am getting super sick of all this lurky ridiculousness, and would rather just cull the spot, and probably nail a scum, or a low impact townie anyway.
As far as hunt goes, I realize it is Thanksgiving (hence why my own activity is relatively meh), but the fact that hunt has given a single post in his defense, or an even justification of any of his reads leaves me to believe he is caught scum. I have no qualms waiting until deadline, as long as those not voting him promise to be on to hammer, but the lack of claim, conviction, and little response to the complaints about his one "large" post lead me to believe he is likely scum, although his wagon will probably be little information.
Lynch hunt, move on tomorrow.
This sounds strongly like intra-mafia conversation to me, especially in the wake of 1321 (TS: "I wasn't a huge fan of everyone scurrying over to Hunt after I went after him.")
And holy christ finally Day 1 is over. I'm not doing the rest because this has legitimately taken two hours. You post so goddamn much.
Anyway, tl;dr: TS is too focused on his own survival, too conspicuously evasive of honest criticism (when he's not meeting the criticism with insults) and too indirect in his accusations of players until things escalate, routinely accuses players of saying/doing things they never said/did as the basis for attacks on them, keeps reiterating suspects whom he's never truly substantiated attacks on, and has suspicious interactions with TS (buddying) and GJ (buddy). Oh, and bussed Huntzilla hard and then repeatedly expressed contradictory reservations about it.
MAYBE some of that can be chalked up to personality, or him being new. MAYBE. But definitely not all of it.
I'll get to the rest of the game eventually, but hopefully now you can see what I mean when I say I strongly believe GJ and TS are the mafia.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Okay, I'm going to try and put some time into this this morning.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm basically starting from the bottom up on the player list, because it's easier, and if I hit someone I feel good about, I can just stop there. Which means first up is EtR. I'm also going to try to make a bunch of shorter posts instead of a single long dreadnaught because I think they are easier to read.
EtR has claimed Watcher, which is pseudo-proven by his knowledge that someone targeted Xyre last night. Even if true, of all the "townish" abilities floating around, this is one I could easily see being given to a scum.
He replaced in for Oceansblack who I thought was Townish, but the main reason I thought so was not because of anything overt but more because he was acting so aggressive and hostile so early on. Given that OB claimed to have Mafia experience (on another site?), and that this is a multi-scum game I'm going to give him less credit for this than I might otherwise.
EtR is a bunch of nothing for most of the early part. That's not good or bad. I have to say, I actually really like THIS post of IAMB's, however, which comes after EtR gives his list of current "reads." I do agree that EtR's Town reads of Seppel, Jobie and Tordeck were completely unjustified for what had happened up to that point in the game.
Aside: of course, IAMB himself states he thinks Tordeck is Town too, so it's kind of odd he would call out EtR for posting a similar read. Apparently IAMB feels that EtR is just "going with the flow" as opposed to trying to figure anything out himself. And it's true EtR didn't give any basis for why he thought any of those people were Town when he said it, whereas IAMB did say why he thought Tordeck was Town. Overall, I'd say this looks a little better for IAMB.
Aside to the Aside: but, then again, there was THIS post of IAMB's at #157. Says Tordeck is scum and faking the post restriction. This is quickly reversed and the explanation appears to be in #298. IAMB appears to have some kind of epiphany in which he realizes that only Townies fake posting restrictions - ones who have power roles or ones who are trying to draw the NK (it appears he is suggesting an either/or situation). Not sure how much I buy this.
I'm not a fan of EtR's vote for IAMB in #988. This is kind of classic "vote someone for reasons other than that they might be scum."
There is a positive interaction with Sir Chris which might lean against EtR being a Werewolf. He seems genuine enough in his suspicions of Sir Chris. He doesn't vote or prod all that much though. It still could be a fellow scum gently needling his buddy. The way he lends his support to the Hunt lynch is similar. Says he supports it without really doing anything.
D2 EtR was a non-entity. Missed most of the day. Following IAMB's claim he appears to be ready to "clear" iamb, but after Tom's flip he's voting for IAMB first thing on D3. He then slides off IAMB for no clear reason and gives support to the building Wildfire momentum. I don't think he ends up voting for anyone D3 though?
Today he has voted IAMB and DOTA. And here I was all ready to declare him basically useless for the whole game, but then he makes what is probably his best post of the game just 6 days ago HERE at #2348. A case against DOTA with links and everything. Without dissecting the merits of the case itself, I like the conviction here, but then it appears he almost immediately backtrack, in the face of a rebuttal from, Xyre? And now he's voting IAMB again. So I guess there wasn't any conviction at all?
I'm not real impressed with EtR.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Moving up the list leads to Anty. I will admit at the outset I'm possibly biased here as he's both (1) a low poster who has (2) claimed Vanilla. But we'll see.
Also, I may or may not have expressed this opinion before, but Xyre - definitely not a Werewolf.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Shoot, can we get anywhere with what we "know" right now...
1. TappingStones - in possession of gift that prevents death by mafia (I think). Otherwise Vanilla.
2. DoTArchon - RBer. Blocked Nacho last night. "Cleared" of being Werewolf by IAMB
3. Seppel - 1-shot Saintmaker. Supposedly made Xyre a Supersaint who will kill the hammer vote on him.
4. Axelrod - Doublevoter
6. imabusinessman - Used "Gunsmith" on TomL and claimed Tom had a gun (which Tom strenuously denied to his death). Used Seer on DOTA archon and "cleared" of being a Werewolf.
8. OceanBlack EtR - Watcher. Watcher Xyre last night and saw someone target him.
10. Nachomamma8 - Governor. Also has (I think) gifts from both Xyre and Zionite in possession.
13. Xyre - Silversmith (gives gifts that target and kill if person is a Werewolf). Gave 1 to Vaimes (dead), 1 to Nacho, and 1 to Unknown. Also now supposedly Supersaint.
16. Antny223 - Vanilla
18. Gentleman Johnny - Bodyguard. Guarded Nacho last two nights?
I'm not sure what's what yet, but I'm noting that EtR claims to have seen someone target Xyre, but from the other claims, there's no one who could have done so. Seppel claimed to have targeted Xyre N2, not last night. So, if that's right, then the only person who could have targeted Xyre last night would have been Zionite, yes? I don't feel like I'm revealing anything here that 1/2 way competent scum couldn't have already figured out.
It seems like there ought to be a way with these claimed abilities to set this up so that the scum don't have a lot of options tonight.
It also randomly occurs to me that the Werewolves got kind of screwed with these "gifts" the way they have been presented, in that, one of them flat out kills/clears people of being Werewolves, while the other one just maybe prevents a kill, but doesn't actually hurt/identify the Mafia.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Werewolves also got screwed if IAMb is telling the truth, because a hit on "Gunsmith" does not guarantee you have found a Mafia - as supposedly happened, whereas a hit on "Seer" guarantees a Werewolf, yes? There is no false-positive there that I am aware of.
And it goes without saying that the Werewolves going for Zionite last night while ignoring the guy making the Werewolf-killing devices makes zero sense. But nice for them the "Watcher" was looking at the other guy.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Could we actually have unbalanced scum teams? Like, 4 Werewolves and only 2 Mafia?
Would that help explain the discrepancy in the abilities?
It's seems a big stretch though. The Two Mafia would have an enormous road to hoe, they'd need some real power, and the one dead one we've seen was only classified as a "goon". I don't think this can be the case.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Could we actually have unbalanced scum teams? Like, 4 Werewolves and only 2 Mafia?
Would that help explain the discrepancy in the abilities?
It's seems a big stretch though. The Two Mafia would have an enormous road to hoe, they'd need some real power, and the one dead one we've seen was only classified as a "goon". I don't think this can be the case.
Like I said earlier, I could imagine teams of 3 and 2, but 3 and 3 plus 2 neutrals just makes it way too easy for us to lose.
Could we actually have unbalanced scum teams? Like, 4 Werewolves and only 2 Mafia?
Would that help explain the discrepancy in the abilities?
It's seems a big stretch though. The Two Mafia would have an enormous road to hoe, they'd need some real power, and the one dead one we've seen was only classified as a "goon". I don't think this can be the case.
I thought we were all operating under the assumption that the teams were not mirrored. I figured the clue were all there. Tom found mafia/not mafia Jobie found town/not town and I find people who are werewolf/have guns. Can we lynch Xyre now? He's the Mafia's souped up PR. Like there's a bunch of similar but not quite the same roles.
I thought we were all operating under the assumption that the teams were not mirrored. I figured the clue were all there. Tom found mafia/not mafia Jobie found town/not town and I find people who are werewolf/have guns. Can we lynch Xyre now? He's the Mafia's souped up PR. Like there's a bunch of similar but not quite the same roles.
I was not operating under the assumption that the teams were not mirrored. Why would I be? My default assumption is they would be equal numbers.
You are still relying heavily on Tom and Jobie both telling the truth when we "know" they were both neutral liars (I mean, I believe Jobie found Tom "not Town" in some fashion, but I am not going to assume he was telling the truth that all he was was a 1-shot Town/Non-Town finder), so this whole line isn't super persuasive.
What was Jobie's win condition? Do you know? I don't think it was "kill all Werewolves," however, if his actual ability was 1-shot find Town/Non-Town, do you?
Axelrod, why didn't you demonstrate use of that doublevote earlier?
Doublevoter is not an especially good ability. It basically does nothing. Except in a very narrow, but potentially game saving, circumstance.
I mean, you can use it once to "surprise" lynch someone who was already at L-2, but that's a pretty poor use of it (unless you are Mafia and going to win). Otherwise, you're not lynching anyone who wasn't getting lynched anyway. But, in an end game, with multiple scum groups, if I was still there, then, it messes with the math the scum have to use. 2 scum, 2 town is usually game over for town, but not with a doublevoter.
The other thing is that it's generally an ability only given to Town (because the reverse end-game, when the scum suddenly win because of an extra vote is both sucky and unfun). So, I was feeling no pressure or incentive to say anything earlier. You will not hear me make the argument that I can't be scum because of it though. Not in this game. I'm super worried that some of the claimed roles/abilities that "shouldn't" go on scum this game, are, in fact, on scum.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I've decided I'm going to be looking for possible scum-scum interactions and anti-Town votes above all else. I'm not confident I can read "Tone" anymore as a reliable indicator of alignment.
Anty's hard to parse. Most of his stuff comes across as very unforced and natural. I guess he hasn't been under much pressure this game so he hasn't had a reason to get worried if he's scum. The first flag comes when he's pushing for Tom on D1, and Nacho is saying he's going to Govern Tom if Tom gets lynched. There's some frustration there, which could be Town or Scum, but the post I didn't like was one where Anty attacked Tom's logic for believing Nacho to be Town. Anty himself believes Nacho to be Town (I think that's right?) so his attack against Tom for this seemed off.
Maybe I'm wrong and what Anty believed was the ability claim, but he doesn't think that necessarily makes Nacho Town? Otherwise his attack on Tom here is just weird. Top suspects D1 were Tom, TS, EtR.
Anty got on the Huntzilla train right at the end of the day, which is okay, though he kind of did it under protest, and unvoted before the end to avoid a speedy lynch.
I do like that Anty disbelieves Tom's claim. That's the Town reaction from where I sit. The scum one is to believe it (because they "know" he's not one of them...) Aside, I think DOTArchon believed Tom's claim right away (then again, so did Wildfire. Why is nothing ever easy?)
Anty fell off the planet for awhile after that (one post, a "prod dodge" between 12/6 and 12/15.)
I'm just posting this here for length purposes, plus I got to take a break. I want to look at the Sir Chris vote again, that time he got run up to see if any of those votes look like possible Bus votes or if they look strong enough to clear said voter from being Werewolf.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
So... I find a double voter on town strange because town already has a governor (added power over who gets lynched), and a last resort (town has ability to win endgames where they wouldn't otherwise). I am confused why you outed it now if you are scum, since I would expect you to hold onto it for the last minute to set up for the quickhammer.
I thought we were all operating under the assumption that the teams were not mirrored. I figured the clue were all there. Tom found mafia/not mafia Jobie found town/not town and I find people who are werewolf/have guns. Can we lynch Xyre now? He's the Mafia's souped up PR. Like there's a bunch of similar but not quite the same roles.
I was not operating under the assumption that the teams were not mirrored. Why would I be? My default assumption is they would be equal numbers.
You are still relying heavily on Tom and Jobie both telling the truth when we "know" they were both neutral liars (I mean, I believe Jobie found Tom "not Town" in some fashion, but I am not going to assume he was telling the truth that all he was was a 1-shot Town/Non-Town finder), so this whole line isn't super persuasive.
What was Jobie's win condition? Do you know? I don't think it was "kill all Werewolves," however, if his actual ability was 1-shot find Town/Non-Town, do you?
From the way people are talking it also sounds like Zionite/Xyre's roles aren't mirrors to each other.
And when I say "mirrors" I mean that the WW/Mafia don't have the exact same roles.
What behavior of Xyre's has been townie in your eyes that overrides his scummy behavior?
Same question @Nachomamma8
What do you find scummy about him? He's been actively scum-hunting, he was spot on with about Sir Chris and his ability is pro-town. It might be a possible Mafia role, but I just don't see it.
What do you find scummy about him? He's been actively scum-hunting, he was spot on with about Sir Chris and his ability is pro-town. It might be a possible Mafia role, but I just don't see it.
Yes, he was spot on about WW sir Chris for the similar reasons for why I was spot on about sir Chris. Yet he insist that I'm werewolf with Sir Chris. And this is after his terrible and sloppy insistence that I was mafia. And to It off he insist on trying to finish off the werewolves when it really shouldn't matter. If we find a mafia then we finish off the mafia team if we find a werewolf then we finish off the werewolf team but that's not Xyre's thought process on the matter. He repeatedly insisted that we finish off werewolves with no mention of finishing off the mafia at all.
I believe there are two of each alive right now. If we lynch mafia, we'll have to lynch mafia again tomorrow to avoid giving them more than one more chance to kill. If instead we lynch werewolves, we improve our odds by giving my gift recipient a chance to kill the other one. It mitigates our attrition rate.
If there is only one of each right now, then (a) this game is seriously stacked in our favor (Seppel's totally off base on this one - the neutrals are almost equal to townies) and (b) we lose nothing by adopting the above plan anyway.
IMAB keeps harping on on this "I said he was mafia" thing, but remember that the only reason we know he's not mafia was because tom investigated him, which formed a brief exchange that I forgot about against the entire span of this game. I was wrong, I admit it. But only because of that fact.
And yes, IMAB did call out Chris, but (a) he was late to that party, relative to me, and (b) he didn't pursue Chris anywhere near as aggressively as he's pursued me. If you look back to the posts themselves, he just declares victory and moves on. That to me sounds like something that he meant to work as bus preparation somehow. That's the best explanation I can come up with for his otherwise-contradictory behavior.
Another aside: So, Anty isn't called out for non-contribution until after that long dead space I noted above. I think before that his relative posting rate was fine. But after disappearing for so long, people started to call him out and refer to him as dead weight/useless. Anty gets kind of peeved about this. So, my only issue there is, hey, you did pretty much disappear from the game for 9 days. You ought to be prepared to take some flack for that. And even before that, you weren't much of a factor in any of the lynches (nor was I). What I'm getting at is, you ought to understand where people are coming from when they say that, as opposed to getting all angry and super-defensive about it.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Anty's big contribution then, is his case against Tappingstones, which he promised for a long time and finally delivers in #2104. I will confess to only skimming this previously as I was knee-deep in Christmas stuff and preparing to travel 1/2 way across the country. So, I'm going to give it a thorough going over, right now. And what I'm looking for is (A) good points made well, or (B) weak points puffed up to be more than they are and/or argued misleadingly.
Point 1: A criticism of Tapping for "buddying" up to Nacho after Nacho's Governor claim. This is not much of a point. Yet. There might be something to the idea that TS was...overenthusiastic? in his early support of Nacho and in calling Nacho's remark about Tom's style a "great point." But it's not much. Still, that's only the first thing, so not a big deal either.
Point 2: This is parallel to a point I made myself early on, so it's obviously fine :p. Basically, Tapping got into an argument with OB. Both of them were being rude to each other, TS even called OB a liar. But TS didn't vote for OB and even made the off remark "Now this doesn't make you scum..." - which is just weird to say to someone you are accusing of outright lying (at least, lying about what TS was accusing OB of lying about).
Point 3: TS asked IAMB if he would be willing to use his 1-shot on EtR. Anty describes this as "directing night actions" which I guess is preemptively scummy in his book. I find "directing night actions" (or rather, suggesting in what ways they might be most profitably used) less scummy than Anty apparently does. This isn't much of a point either.
Point 4: TS gave a list of reads. In the first post, he has Necarg as "lean scum". In the next "clearing it up" post, he has Necarg as "Very lynchable." Given that TS still has a "leanscum" category in the second post, it does seem that Necarg has gone up in scumminess in TS's eyes between the two posts. Anty also thinks TS's reasons for putting Necarg in the "lean scum" category aren't very good to begin with, which I can't say I agree with.
(Note to self to double-check TS response to this particular point)
Point 5: Accusing TS of being too "defensive" with Tom. I'm going to agree that TS jumping down Tom's throat here is an over-reaction.
Point 6: Accusing TS of an OMGUS vote on Tom. I'm going to agree with TS here, that Tom was coming off a post where he complemented TS on his "well researched" reads, which made some "good points," but then turned around and accused TS of being scum (by virtue of the two reads he didn't agree with?). This was a fair vote by TS and not OMGUS.
I have to go again. So far I can see some merit in point 2 and point 5. Points 1, 3, and 6 aren't much of anything. Reserve judgment on 4 until I see TS's response. I'll catch up the rest of his points later.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Antny the argument that I found compelling from Xyre was that for DoTA to be scum, Imab has to be as well with his clearing of DoTA being a werewolf. If DoTA is not a werewolf then it makes no sense for him as mafia to block Nacho from using his werewolf shot. Therefore, if Imab is scum then DoTA is a good option. If Imab isn't scum, specifically a werewolf, then I don't believe DoTA can be scum.
@Antny the argument that I found compelling from Xyre was that for DoTA to be scum, Imab has to be as well with his clearing of DoTA being a werewolf. If DoTA is not a werewolf then it makes no sense for him as mafia to block Nacho from using his werewolf shot. Therefore, if Imab is scum then DoTA is a good option. If Imab isn't scum, specifically a werewolf, then I don't believe DoTA can be scum.
lol @this logic. It made no sense for Mafia to shoot Tordeck just like it made no sense for WW to shoot zionite. I don't know what's more tragic: Xyre's terrible argument or EtR finding it compelling.
@Antny the argument that I found compelling from Xyre was that for DoTA to be scum, Imab has to be as well with his clearing of DoTA being a werewolf. If DoTA is not a werewolf then it makes no sense for him as mafia to block Nacho from using his werewolf shot. Therefore, if Imab is scum then DoTA is a good option. If Imab isn't scum, specifically a werewolf, then I don't believe DoTA can be scum.
Where did Xyre say anything remotely like that? He's convinced I'm town, I don't recall him making any assumptions regarding my flip based on how Imab flips.
@Antny the argument that I found compelling from Xyre was that for DoTA to be scum, Imab has to be as well with his clearing of DoTA being a werewolf. If DoTA is not a werewolf then it makes no sense for him as mafia to block Nacho from using his werewolf shot. Therefore, if Imab is scum then DoTA is a good option. If Imab isn't scum, specifically a werewolf, then I don't believe DoTA can be scum.
lol @this logic. It made no sense for Mafia to shoot Tordeck just like it made no sense for WW to shoot zionite. I don't know what's more tragic: Xyre's terrible argument or EtR finding it compelling.
Not shoot, roleblock. Shooting Zionite is fine, because he's confirmed town. Roleblocking him, however, is pretty useless to the mafia. So the only way I could see him being scum is if he's actually a werewolf, which calls your investigation into question.
Put it another way: unless you're suggesting he's some kind of "wolffather", you being scum is a necessary condition for him being scum. So we should check that first.
@Antny the argument that I found compelling from Xyre was that for DoTA to be scum, Imab has to be as well with his clearing of DoTA being a werewolf. If DoTA is not a werewolf then it makes no sense for him as mafia to block Nacho from using his werewolf shot. Therefore, if Imab is scum then DoTA is a good option. If Imab isn't scum, specifically a werewolf, then I don't believe DoTA can be scum.
lol @this logic. It made no sense for Mafia to shoot Tordeck just like it made no sense for WW to shoot zionite. I don't know what's more tragic: Xyre's terrible argument or EtR finding it compelling.
Not shoot, roleblock. Shooting Zionite is fine, because he's confirmed town. Roleblocking him, however, is pretty useless to the mafia. So the only way I could see him being scum is if he's actually a werewolf, which calls your investigation into question.
Put it another way: unless you're suggesting he's some kind of "wolffather", you being scum is a necessary condition for him being scum. So we should check that first.
Nope. It made no sense for WW to shoot zionite when, by your own logic you're suppposed to be confirmed town. WW should have shot you instead of zionite. And did you really just say it made no sense for Mafia to roleblock zionite?
@Axelrod
@Nachomamma8
@Seppel
@antny223
I look forward to someone making a towncase on Xyre that doesn't include his role and focuses exclusively on behavior. 'cuz this is starting to get unforgivable.
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Antny has played consistently badly this game; that shouldn't even be up for debate (Seppel notwithstanding, because Seppel's been wrong about everything all game, so why stop now). I'll refer you to my PBPA of him. And lynching him and shooting IMAB either finishes off the werewolves or gives us an actually confirmed townie. That's a win-win in my book.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
TappingStones has claimed VT and Wildfire flipped VT. Speaking of TS, did you see my question earlier about terminology use? In your experience, is that phrasing normal?
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I don't like how hard you defend all of these slips from DOTA, I'm not sure he's scum or anything but it seems pretty bad that you've off about so many people this game and you're defending so many mistakes this hard. Your hard-headed play is making it very hard for us to have any chance at taking one one scum team, let alone both.
@Nacho-Who would you absolutely pardon today? I suggest you are conservative with usage.
@GJ-I haven't given Etr case because today I want to consider whether he's more likely mafia or WW. I'm having a hard time believing that DOTA, Xyre and Antny are all town. Can three town players combine to play this poorly? It doesn't add up.
T/S
Tappingstones
Nacho
IABM
GJ
Xyre
Null
Seppel
Axelrod
Scum
Antny
Etr
DOTA
This is sort of where I'm at right now. Is anyone similar to this or am I way off?
This. This is why TS is scum.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Are you really this bad at mafia? I refuse to believe someone sucks this bad.
The words you quote "I'm not sure he's scum", what's your point? I have no abilities to watch or no who is scum. I'm not going to play as badly as you and start guaranteeing that certain players are scum. Based on DOTA's many mistakes I have him as a likely scum candidate.
Got anything else to say? I didn't think so...
If you are town here you are easily the worst player I have played with on this site Xyre.
Two-parter. First, as pointed out above, TS employs the distancing language "I'm not sure he's scum or anything" while still filing Dota at the bottom of the scum list. (In the "most-likely-scum" slot, for that matter, based on putting himself at the top of the town list.) Clearly talking out of both sides of his mouth.
Second, note that he indirectly slimes Dota by sliming me for defending him. It has nothing to do with whether Dota actually is scum (much less motivations or anything concrete about it); the fact that I'm defending Dota hangs him. That's like guilt by association-level logic, except even more deranged, because while it sounds like he's trying very hard to imply I have an agenda, he then files me in his town list. He just says he doesn't like it, which is also classic scum distancing language, especially when used in this context. Everything about these two sentences is contorted and backwards.
(And for what it's worth, let's not forget I was right about tom and right about Sir Chris, but TS and IMAB both subscribe to this meme that I'm playing horribly, so we can't pin that totally on TS.)
Again with more vague language, this time argument-by-implication. Also, why can't you case Etr without guessing his alignment? Scum tells are scum tells. This feels like an attempt to avoid doing any work which I could chop into pieces.
On the plus side, this pretty much confirms Antny and TS can't be scum together, for anyone who still thought that was a possibility.
Also, for what it's worth, his town/scum list is really mediocre. He's filed all the power roles in the top section, plus himself, minus Seppel and Axelrod (whom we've already confirmed is a double-voter), and shoved everyone else into the scum list. That's the work of a scum who knows exactly who he can get killed and who he can't.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Also for what it's worth, I'm bringing posts like this to the council after this game, regardless of your alignment. I said this once, and I'll say it again: if you said things like this to someone in a game I was modding as often as you've said them to me, I'd modkill or replace you.
I'm a big boy who's been on the internet for a long time, so I don't care what you think of me (even if I'm wrong), but if you say this to people other than me, you're going to really piss some people off, which torpedoes games. This isn't behavior that should be tolerated here.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I'll be compiling my list as well Xyre. The way you talked to me with personal attacks and to IABM. You have made this game almost impossible to enjoy. Your behavior should not be tolerated and several people have commented multiple times on how you've been acting. I trust IABM is in agreement with me that you have made this more a choir then a fun, leisurely activity.
But at least I'm not a jerk who's using his jerkiness to poison the game so I can win. I'm absolutely confident at least one of you and IMAB is being a jerk strategically, which I personally think should be an infractionable offense, though I'm sure I'm in the minority on that one.
For example, while I'd happily say someone isn't a good player, I'd never say they're a bad player solely to throw shade on their case against me. I normally let in-game bad feelings lie when the game ends, but believe me, if you or IMAB did that this game, I'll make sure there are consequences. This community is decayed enough as it is without you scaring away sensitive souls.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Perhaps you should actually wait to see what alignment everyone is. I know you've given yourself no avenue to find out I'm town. You'll see as soon as the game is over how wrong you were and why I've been so frustrated. You said a couple pages ago that you wont even answer my questions. I mean, how am I supposed to take that? I know that I'm VT. Other confirmed town know this too.
Why not at least play a normal game of Mafia? You've called me scum the entire game but you have no case against me, just lingering hurt feelings about earlier slap fights.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Point of order, I think ant is town and playing well above what I experienced in Avante Garde.
@Xyre, playing poorly absolutely can be a tell.
For example it's clear that Mafia and WW are inexperience/don't know what the heck they're doing at night.
Between the mafia killing Tordeck and Werewolves killing Zionite, we are dealing with a scum team that doesn't know what they're doing.
This IS a positive for...
Nacho, Seppel, myself and Gentleman Johnny for not being so silly as to make those kills as either team. Not cleared but in favor.
Look at DoTArchon's play. Look at Xyre's play. Definitely makes sense that either of them could have been on teams to make those kills. No question.
Like I said earlier: anyone with experience would have realized that Tordeck was faking his post restriction.
Favors me, Seppel, and Nacho of not being mafia.
Werewolves had no reason whatsoever to kill zionite. Absolutely none.
This is next part is veering into WIFOM so be forewarned...
1. Eliminate someone who was suspicious of me being WW (although my play should clear me of being ww anyone).
2. The fact that Xyre initially thought I could possibly be Mafia even after I was tomsloger was bad. Then he poo-poo'd the idea of trying to justly/explain which team I was on even after hardcore getting called out for calling me Mafia after I got cleared of being mafia.
3. DoTA screwed up the night actions preventing me from being 100% being cleared of being mafia AND WERWOLF. Not that it really matters since behaviorally I should be cleared of WW anyway.Then proceeds to tunnelvision me. That's awful play from a townie. I just can't see how a townie engages in that behavior.
tl/dr DoTA and Xyre are playing foolishly which lines up perfectly with the poorly thought out nightkills that have taken place.
why does it matter whether we finish off WW or mafia first?
Because Xyre and DotArchon are mafia together.
The "play better please" part is what perks up my ears. It makes me think Sir Chris is trying to dissuade his scum buddy from throwing him under the bus.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
A PBPA of TS
First post is 88-89. Pretty null - thumbs-upping a Nacho post without adding much. It's already well-established that Tom's deviations from his play in Predator ultimately didn't add up to much, but I can't fault or credit TS for applying that thinking.
113 raises a red flag to me. Tapping seems to be dancing around calling OceanBlack scum for his confrontational manner, even though TS openly associates attitude with alignment. Phrases like "your OMGUS vote on me didn't do any favors" stink to me, as does the passive-condescending tone of the third paragraph. Maybe this is just TS's voice (I haven't read any games of his for this PBPA, and am doing it in order, so I don't have any points of comparison), but it reads very much like someone throwing shade on an opponent without going the extra mile of calling them scum; it's a distant tone characteristic of scum, especially newer scum players, who want to lay groundwork for other people to attack their targets. Same with 115, which also conspicuously trails off without picking a side on OB other than "Bad town or scum?"
Also, apropos of nothing, TS is quick to call what people say to/about him personal attacks, which is just so rich. (I.e. 125 - OceanBlack's post wasn't even remotely insulting, personal or otherwise; the most charged word he used was "nonsensical", and he does have a point there. I can't see what TS is taking offense from. It's only as TS goads him that OB starts getting as angry as he became, e.g. 132.) Anyway. No more references to TS being a jerk from this point out, I promise. I'll bit my tongue until it bleeds if I have to.
Town points for calling out Antny's fake-ironic vote on Tom (230). Not thrilled from him just folding after Seppel chimes in, though. Bad players' bad posts deserve scrutiny even if they're uniformly bad. But that part's a null tell.
287: "Anyone want to tell me there [sic] main thoughts on [Necarg, IMAB, and Rodemy] while I do my reread?" Justifiably mocked at the time. It's a good list of suspects, and I'm interested in TS soliciting opinions on Necarg, but this sounds like part-and-parcel with his "offer a shadow of an opinion and see who will flesh it out for him" approach so far. In other words, suspicious.
It's especially weird in light of 294, in which TS says "I cared enough to comment because I'd like everyone posting and giving their ideas. This way it's harder for scum to hide and easier for townies to identify each other." Which sounds reasonable, except so far TS hasn't really offered a lot of opinions; he's picked up Nacho's mantle about Predator Mafia, and razzed OceanBlack, but he's asked for far more opinions than he's offered. This sounds like a mafia asking for someone to give him another opinion he can glom onto. Let's see if he does that...
Does offer that he'll give some big reads from a reread in 325, which is nice. Does he end up delivering, future me?
Oh, right, the huge post (354). The problem is there's not a lot of new content here; he hashes out a lot of posts, but when you peel away the summaries of the posts themselves, there aren't a lot of opinions. He thinks OB is scum, which we knew; he calls Axelrod poorly-playing town for disagreeing about OB but agreeing about me; he calls me a "walking disaster" even though he seems to agree with me about Necarg; and doesn't really offer any basis at all for calling Dota lean scum. I'm indifferent to this post on balance, because I can see town TS erroneously thinking it's useful, but it's really not (both because near-impossible to read and there aren't many substantial reasons/explanations for any conclusions he draws).
In a similar vein, I can't really count his attacks on certain people for misreading or "tl;dr"ing his big post (378, e.g.), because maybe he just doesn't appreciate how incomprehensible it is to a layperson.
Tom makes a good point about TS's "why are you spending so much time on Hunt" comment (from 380), which TS sidesteps in 385. Why not treat Necarg and Huntzilla the same/react to their lurking the same?
445 is a horrible argument, turning tom re-voting for TS into "a show of fake unvoting for the same person".
A lot of the TS-tomsloger stuff makes my eyes glaze over. They're both misrepresenting the hell out of each other, and pretty much all of the misrepresentations could just as easily come from misplaced righteous anger. Nothing of use is going to come from it, so I'm just gonna slide on.
531: I'm not entirely sure what's going on here, but it looks like TS jumping in to answer a question for GJ, which is interesting. Sure, the original question in 345 was to TS as well, but why is it only being directed to GJ, and why does that make TS suddenly care? It's really weird.
(Also, apropos of nothing, this reminds me again of the point I had about GJ playing both sides of the TS ball way back in 479. GJ's "I think you made a great point, but I want to watch him more carefully for tomorrow" side-step to Axelrod's original casing of TS looks even worse, since it doesn't seem like GJ has ever actually "watched him more carefully". It no longer looks like GJ playing both sides of the ball; it looks like GJ paying lip service to Axelrod's case while filing it in his memory hole.)
Interesting that TS seems to gloss over tomsloger's big catch-up post even though a lot of their reads conflict (me, Dota, Axelrod, OB/Etr, IMAB, and Tapping himself), instead just saying tom's copying TS's method. No clue what that means. Also have no clue why he seems to be sliding away from Dota at this point (see 590); it's not established in his posts. Distracted?
His "I'm not a reliable reader of scum alignment yet" in 594 bothers me for reasons I can't put my finger on. It may well be true, but it's not really apropos to what Dota is asking him; it sounds too preemptory, I guess? Let's see if this goes anywhere.
The condescending deflection in 599 is a big red flag. Tom says he's happy voting TS, and TS mocks him for his poor play in Predator, and in turn the very notion of tom ever figuring out an alignment correctly. Setting aside how much of a j... Sorry, sorry, I promised. It's entirely nonresponsive, is what it is, and it's nonresponsive in a way that seeks only to undermine the suspicion. True, maybe this is just how TS is. But for someone who lords the laws of logic over people, it's uncharacteristically thin on the actual argumentation side.
Also, 600 is a blatantly false mischaracterization. Tom isn't hovering anything, and he's applying quite a bit of pressure. The difference is that TS isn't actually responding to it, and then crowing that tom isn't actually accusing him of anything. To tell the truth, I completely missed this before; it's one of the most brazen moves I've ever seen. So much so that I'm even going to throw in a link so you can see for yourself. http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/forum-games/mafia/645040-mafia-classic-wolves-vs-mafia-day-4-once-revered?comment=600
Now, again, maybe this doesn't mean anything. It could simply be that TS lives in his own little world of illusion. But again, the absurdity of accusing people of using illogic in arguments you disagree with and then pretending their more solid arguments don't actually exist seems too... too self-serving to be "just TS being TS" or TS being so angry about tom as to be blinded by rage. No, he's twisting reality to serve his purposes, and superimposing that image over the real thing. It's too calculated to be a mistake or ordinary lack of self-awareness.
605 continues the farce; now tom is "tunneling" TS. How does that make sense, if he's also "hovering" you? By definition, you can't do both of those things at once. Either you're waiting for someone to fuel your wagon so you don't have to fully commit, or you're pushing someone so hard that you don't have to consider the rest of the world. This strongly feels like TS is just throwing every damaging characterization he can think of at tom until one sticks. And when those don't work, he blames tom for the breakdown in their relationship.
638: wants to see more content from Huntzilla and GJ, but doesn't associate their absence with alignment. Curious to see where this goes.
Sidenote: TS, I wish you wouldn't just quote an entire post and then respond to one single thing within it. (See 669.) It makes it pretty hard to follow the conversation.
674: TS admits that a big part of his accusation of tom is based on "Tom trying to garner a wagon on me", and then spins it around on Dota, insinuating that Dota deliberately ignored that point. More undermining/suspicion-by-implication. Still sleazy.
Calls out Hunt for lurking in 685 (albeit in response to another point), which I like.
Again asking for insights into other players from someone else, in 710. "Let me know which of the players voting me appear to be scum" seems like an attempt to muster allies to his side. And then Chris immediately does so, probably as an attempt to appear town to someone he thinks can give him town cover. Which makes me feel more comfortable, along with TS's consistent scrutiny of Necarg when he was in, in saying TS probably isn't a werewolf. It legitimately seems like the two were using each other at the same time. It reflects worse on Chris than TS, but it's still suspicious for the latter. Their interactions, especially as Day 1 goes on, reads like the two of each other just being happy the other isn't suspecting them. (I'm willing to admit I was very wrong about them being scum-buddies.)
TS's obsession with derailing the wagon on himself and attacking only people attacking him is also noteworthy, and mildly scummy, but he's a new player, so I'm giving him some benefit of the doubt there as to the trend as a whole. The fact that he has accepted a few scum suspects and continually called them such without reaffirming the evidence against them also bothers me, though again, that could just be him. (Nobody continually reiterates why they suspect someone every hundred posts, but TS keeps saying he suspects Etr and me over and over having never really pinned down why, other than that big bulky post the flaws of which I pointed out before.)
No clue where 924 is going. Where did Hunt come into this?
Re: 927. Abridgment, TS, for the love of god.
Another comment about Hunt, saying he should replace out. Hmm.
Puts GJ on his "will not vote for today" list, which is striking. Also puts Antny, Imab, and SC on it. It's a weird-ass list.
The jump onto Huntzilla is a bit abrupt, in 1174. Just two posts earlier (1167) he said "My vote is on Tom. Until the game is over.... I will otherwise sit my vote on Tom until Kingdom Come." Then Nacho makes reference to his Huntzilla case and suddenly TS is all on board with lynching Hunt? Just because Nacho, the guy you hate, says he'd accept that lynch? This is pure bus.
(Yes, I know he's the first vote on Hunt, and that he's made repeated references to Hunt, but those have always been of the form "I wish he'd post more". He's never expressed a strong scum opinion of Hunt, never voted him, never really said anything about him except that he's been lurking. This is a sharp change in tone, coming from out of nowhere. I can't believe that TS "suddenly" realized Hunt was a good lynch candidate after repeatedly and ferociously railing about Tom and Nacho's governorship. Or, rather, I think TS suddenly shifted tone, but only realizing an opportunity to profit.)
(Also, for what it's worth, 1191 also reads like a bus by GJ - criticizing Zionite for voting for Huntzilla for being opportunistic and then voting Huntzilla without even a token stated reason until Axel called him out on it. Seppel notably points this out in 1201, which is amusing. Good job, Seppel. And notably, GJ never responds to Seppel on that one, even though Seppel asked him a point of clarification.)
Also note that TS oscillates between denigrating the Hunt wagon (1226) and critical (in his usual passive manner) of people who are wary of the wagon (1223, re: Axelrod calling Hunt's big post underwhelming). Also, 1226 feels a little too self-conscious in his boy-I-sure-hope-Hunt's-scum sentiment.
Asks SC why he think GJ is town, which again supports my thinking that they're using each other.
1357: "I'm not really in the business of defending myself." :guffaw:
I still find the GJ/TS tag-team defense of SC interesting (1358-1361), as well as the exchange highlighted in 1380 regarding strategies of keeping SC alive. Can't exactly put my finger on what tactical purpose their positions serve, but it does sound like a general resolution that they (whether town or mafia) will keep him alive as long as he serves their purposes. These posts at least suggest the two are on the same team; the buddying doesn't feel as conspicuous as with Sir Chris, but a true convergence of similar interests.
Of course, I have no idea how 1390 fits into this. (TS to GJ: "Ask me some questions, old sport.")
1392: Says he has a "lean town read" on GJ. That sounds strongly to me like a "gentleman's 'lean town'," so to speak. That coupled with the above again makes me think both are scum together. Also, another example of TS jumping into cover GJ. This feels like new scum not realizing the virtues of distancing.
(I'm not the only person finding their relationship suspect - note Zionite's 1412: "Why is Gj not asking TS the same questions when the situation is similar? It can't be as simple as reads=motive can it?")
Finally, to move back in time a bit, one last GJ post:
This sounds strongly like intra-mafia conversation to me, especially in the wake of 1321 (TS: "I wasn't a huge fan of everyone scurrying over to Hunt after I went after him.")
And holy christ finally Day 1 is over. I'm not doing the rest because this has legitimately taken two hours. You post so goddamn much.
Anyway, tl;dr: TS is too focused on his own survival, too conspicuously evasive of honest criticism (when he's not meeting the criticism with insults) and too indirect in his accusations of players until things escalate, routinely accuses players of saying/doing things they never said/did as the basis for attacks on them, keeps reiterating suspects whom he's never truly substantiated attacks on, and has suspicious interactions with TS (buddying) and GJ (buddy). Oh, and bussed Huntzilla hard and then repeatedly expressed contradictory reservations about it.
MAYBE some of that can be chalked up to personality, or him being new. MAYBE. But definitely not all of it.
I'll get to the rest of the game eventually, but hopefully now you can see what I mean when I say I strongly believe GJ and TS are the mafia.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I have very little free time. :/
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Werewolves killed Zionite because he was townreading me and they wanted to try and push a quick mislynch today just like yesterday.
imabusinessman (2): DoTArchon, EtR
Axelrod (1): Antny223
EtR (2): Nachomamma8, TappingStones
DoTArchon (3): imabusinessman, Gentleman Johnny, Seppel
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
EtR has claimed Watcher, which is pseudo-proven by his knowledge that someone targeted Xyre last night. Even if true, of all the "townish" abilities floating around, this is one I could easily see being given to a scum.
He replaced in for Oceansblack who I thought was Townish, but the main reason I thought so was not because of anything overt but more because he was acting so aggressive and hostile so early on. Given that OB claimed to have Mafia experience (on another site?), and that this is a multi-scum game I'm going to give him less credit for this than I might otherwise.
EtR is a bunch of nothing for most of the early part. That's not good or bad. I have to say, I actually really like THIS post of IAMB's, however, which comes after EtR gives his list of current "reads." I do agree that EtR's Town reads of Seppel, Jobie and Tordeck were completely unjustified for what had happened up to that point in the game.
Aside: of course, IAMB himself states he thinks Tordeck is Town too, so it's kind of odd he would call out EtR for posting a similar read. Apparently IAMB feels that EtR is just "going with the flow" as opposed to trying to figure anything out himself. And it's true EtR didn't give any basis for why he thought any of those people were Town when he said it, whereas IAMB did say why he thought Tordeck was Town. Overall, I'd say this looks a little better for IAMB.
Aside to the Aside: but, then again, there was THIS post of IAMB's at #157. Says Tordeck is scum and faking the post restriction. This is quickly reversed and the explanation appears to be in #298. IAMB appears to have some kind of epiphany in which he realizes that only Townies fake posting restrictions - ones who have power roles or ones who are trying to draw the NK (it appears he is suggesting an either/or situation). Not sure how much I buy this.
I'm not a fan of EtR's vote for IAMB in #988. This is kind of classic "vote someone for reasons other than that they might be scum."
There is a positive interaction with Sir Chris which might lean against EtR being a Werewolf. He seems genuine enough in his suspicions of Sir Chris. He doesn't vote or prod all that much though. It still could be a fellow scum gently needling his buddy. The way he lends his support to the Hunt lynch is similar. Says he supports it without really doing anything.
D2 EtR was a non-entity. Missed most of the day. Following IAMB's claim he appears to be ready to "clear" iamb, but after Tom's flip he's voting for IAMB first thing on D3. He then slides off IAMB for no clear reason and gives support to the building Wildfire momentum. I don't think he ends up voting for anyone D3 though?
Today he has voted IAMB and DOTA. And here I was all ready to declare him basically useless for the whole game, but then he makes what is probably his best post of the game just 6 days ago HERE at #2348. A case against DOTA with links and everything. Without dissecting the merits of the case itself, I like the conviction here, but then it appears he almost immediately backtrack, in the face of a rebuttal from, Xyre? And now he's voting IAMB again. So I guess there wasn't any conviction at all?
I'm not real impressed with EtR.
Also, I may or may not have expressed this opinion before, but Xyre - definitely not a Werewolf.
1. TappingStones - in possession of gift that prevents death by mafia (I think). Otherwise Vanilla.
2. DoTArchon - RBer. Blocked Nacho last night. "Cleared" of being Werewolf by IAMB
3. Seppel - 1-shot Saintmaker. Supposedly made Xyre a Supersaint who will kill the hammer vote on him.
4. Axelrod - Doublevoter
6. imabusinessman - Used "Gunsmith" on TomL and claimed Tom had a gun (which Tom strenuously denied to his death). Used Seer on DOTA archon and "cleared" of being a Werewolf.
8. OceanBlack EtR - Watcher. Watcher Xyre last night and saw someone target him.
10. Nachomamma8 - Governor. Also has (I think) gifts from both Xyre and Zionite in possession.
13. Xyre - Silversmith (gives gifts that target and kill if person is a Werewolf). Gave 1 to Vaimes (dead), 1 to Nacho, and 1 to Unknown. Also now supposedly Supersaint.
16. Antny223 - Vanilla
18. Gentleman Johnny - Bodyguard. Guarded Nacho last two nights?
I'm not sure what's what yet, but I'm noting that EtR claims to have seen someone target Xyre, but from the other claims, there's no one who could have done so. Seppel claimed to have targeted Xyre N2, not last night. So, if that's right, then the only person who could have targeted Xyre last night would have been Zionite, yes? I don't feel like I'm revealing anything here that 1/2 way competent scum couldn't have already figured out.
It seems like there ought to be a way with these claimed abilities to set this up so that the scum don't have a lot of options tonight.
It also randomly occurs to me that the Werewolves got kind of screwed with these "gifts" the way they have been presented, in that, one of them flat out kills/clears people of being Werewolves, while the other one just maybe prevents a kill, but doesn't actually hurt/identify the Mafia.
And it goes without saying that the Werewolves going for Zionite last night while ignoring the guy making the Werewolf-killing devices makes zero sense. But nice for them the "Watcher" was looking at the other guy.
Would that help explain the discrepancy in the abilities?
It's seems a big stretch though. The Two Mafia would have an enormous road to hoe, they'd need some real power, and the one dead one we've seen was only classified as a "goon". I don't think this can be the case.
I thought we were all operating under the assumption that the teams were not mirrored. I figured the clue were all there. Tom found mafia/not mafia Jobie found town/not town and I find people who are werewolf/have guns. Can we lynch Xyre now? He's the Mafia's souped up PR. Like there's a bunch of similar but not quite the same roles.
My preferred lynches are EtR, Seppel, Anty.
Axelrod, why didn't you demonstrate use of that doublevote earlier?
I was not operating under the assumption that the teams were not mirrored. Why would I be? My default assumption is they would be equal numbers.
You are still relying heavily on Tom and Jobie both telling the truth when we "know" they were both neutral liars (I mean, I believe Jobie found Tom "not Town" in some fashion, but I am not going to assume he was telling the truth that all he was was a 1-shot Town/Non-Town finder), so this whole line isn't super persuasive.
What was Jobie's win condition? Do you know? I don't think it was "kill all Werewolves," however, if his actual ability was 1-shot find Town/Non-Town, do you?
Doublevoter is not an especially good ability. It basically does nothing. Except in a very narrow, but potentially game saving, circumstance.
I mean, you can use it once to "surprise" lynch someone who was already at L-2, but that's a pretty poor use of it (unless you are Mafia and going to win). Otherwise, you're not lynching anyone who wasn't getting lynched anyway. But, in an end game, with multiple scum groups, if I was still there, then, it messes with the math the scum have to use. 2 scum, 2 town is usually game over for town, but not with a doublevoter.
The other thing is that it's generally an ability only given to Town (because the reverse end-game, when the scum suddenly win because of an extra vote is both sucky and unfun). So, I was feeling no pressure or incentive to say anything earlier. You will not hear me make the argument that I can't be scum because of it though. Not in this game. I'm super worried that some of the claimed roles/abilities that "shouldn't" go on scum this game, are, in fact, on scum.
Anty's hard to parse. Most of his stuff comes across as very unforced and natural. I guess he hasn't been under much pressure this game so he hasn't had a reason to get worried if he's scum. The first flag comes when he's pushing for Tom on D1, and Nacho is saying he's going to Govern Tom if Tom gets lynched. There's some frustration there, which could be Town or Scum, but the post I didn't like was one where Anty attacked Tom's logic for believing Nacho to be Town. Anty himself believes Nacho to be Town (I think that's right?) so his attack against Tom for this seemed off.
Maybe I'm wrong and what Anty believed was the ability claim, but he doesn't think that necessarily makes Nacho Town? Otherwise his attack on Tom here is just weird. Top suspects D1 were Tom, TS, EtR.
Anty got on the Huntzilla train right at the end of the day, which is okay, though he kind of did it under protest, and unvoted before the end to avoid a speedy lynch.
I do like that Anty disbelieves Tom's claim. That's the Town reaction from where I sit. The scum one is to believe it (because they "know" he's not one of them...) Aside, I think DOTArchon believed Tom's claim right away (then again, so did Wildfire. Why is nothing ever easy?)
Anty fell off the planet for awhile after that (one post, a "prod dodge" between 12/6 and 12/15.)
I'm just posting this here for length purposes, plus I got to take a break. I want to look at the Sir Chris vote again, that time he got run up to see if any of those votes look like possible Bus votes or if they look strong enough to clear said voter from being Werewolf.
From the way people are talking it also sounds like Zionite/Xyre's roles aren't mirrors to each other.
And when I say "mirrors" I mean that the WW/Mafia don't have the exact same roles.
What behavior of Xyre's has been townie in your eyes that overrides his scummy behavior?
Same question @Nachomamma8
@Dota: Who is that question aimed at?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Yes, he was spot on about WW sir Chris for the similar reasons for why I was spot on about sir Chris. Yet he insist that I'm werewolf with Sir Chris. And this is after his terrible and sloppy insistence that I was mafia. And to It off he insist on trying to finish off the werewolves when it really shouldn't matter. If we find a mafia then we finish off the mafia team if we find a werewolf then we finish off the werewolf team but that's not Xyre's thought process on the matter. He repeatedly insisted that we finish off werewolves with no mention of finishing off the mafia at all.
If there is only one of each right now, then (a) this game is seriously stacked in our favor (Seppel's totally off base on this one - the neutrals are almost equal to townies) and (b) we lose nothing by adopting the above plan anyway.
IMAB keeps harping on on this "I said he was mafia" thing, but remember that the only reason we know he's not mafia was because tom investigated him, which formed a brief exchange that I forgot about against the entire span of this game. I was wrong, I admit it. But only because of that fact.
And yes, IMAB did call out Chris, but (a) he was late to that party, relative to me, and (b) he didn't pursue Chris anywhere near as aggressively as he's pursued me. If you look back to the posts themselves, he just declares victory and moves on. That to me sounds like something that he meant to work as bus preparation somehow. That's the best explanation I can come up with for his otherwise-contradictory behavior.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Point 1: A criticism of Tapping for "buddying" up to Nacho after Nacho's Governor claim. This is not much of a point. Yet. There might be something to the idea that TS was...overenthusiastic? in his early support of Nacho and in calling Nacho's remark about Tom's style a "great point." But it's not much. Still, that's only the first thing, so not a big deal either.
Point 2: This is parallel to a point I made myself early on, so it's obviously fine :p. Basically, Tapping got into an argument with OB. Both of them were being rude to each other, TS even called OB a liar. But TS didn't vote for OB and even made the off remark "Now this doesn't make you scum..." - which is just weird to say to someone you are accusing of outright lying (at least, lying about what TS was accusing OB of lying about).
Point 3: TS asked IAMB if he would be willing to use his 1-shot on EtR. Anty describes this as "directing night actions" which I guess is preemptively scummy in his book. I find "directing night actions" (or rather, suggesting in what ways they might be most profitably used) less scummy than Anty apparently does. This isn't much of a point either.
Point 4: TS gave a list of reads. In the first post, he has Necarg as "lean scum". In the next "clearing it up" post, he has Necarg as "Very lynchable." Given that TS still has a "leanscum" category in the second post, it does seem that Necarg has gone up in scumminess in TS's eyes between the two posts. Anty also thinks TS's reasons for putting Necarg in the "lean scum" category aren't very good to begin with, which I can't say I agree with.
(Note to self to double-check TS response to this particular point)
Point 5: Accusing TS of being too "defensive" with Tom. I'm going to agree that TS jumping down Tom's throat here is an over-reaction.
Point 6: Accusing TS of an OMGUS vote on Tom. I'm going to agree with TS here, that Tom was coming off a post where he complemented TS on his "well researched" reads, which made some "good points," but then turned around and accused TS of being scum (by virtue of the two reads he didn't agree with?). This was a fair vote by TS and not OMGUS.
I have to go again. So far I can see some merit in point 2 and point 5. Points 1, 3, and 6 aren't much of anything. Reserve judgment on 4 until I see TS's response. I'll catch up the rest of his points later.
@Antny the argument that I found compelling from Xyre was that for DoTA to be scum, Imab has to be as well with his clearing of DoTA being a werewolf. If DoTA is not a werewolf then it makes no sense for him as mafia to block Nacho from using his werewolf shot. Therefore, if Imab is scum then DoTA is a good option. If Imab isn't scum, specifically a werewolf, then I don't believe DoTA can be scum.
lol @this logic. It made no sense for Mafia to shoot Tordeck just like it made no sense for WW to shoot zionite. I don't know what's more tragic: Xyre's terrible argument or EtR finding it compelling.
Put it another way: unless you're suggesting he's some kind of "wolffather", you being scum is a necessary condition for him being scum. So we should check that first.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Nope. It made no sense for WW to shoot zionite when, by your own logic you're suppposed to be confirmed town. WW should have shot you instead of zionite. And did you really just say it made no sense for Mafia to roleblock zionite?
@Axelrod
@Nachomamma8
@Seppel
@antny223
I look forward to someone making a towncase on Xyre that doesn't include his role and focuses exclusively on behavior. 'cuz this is starting to get unforgivable.