Just to be clear, I believe that DoTA admitted to lying because GJ essentially counterclaimed him but he had already admitted to blocking Nacho, so he had to reverse course.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Just to be clear, I believe that DoTA admitted to lying because GJ essentially counterclaimed him but he had already admitted to blocking Nacho, so he had to reverse course.
Are we all at least on the same page there?
I believe him when he said he misread his PM, but otherwise yeah, that sounds about right. I'm not defending his play this game, which is indefensible. I just think he's town.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Both my newbie games on Mafiascum had Jailkeeper's, and because of how they set them up, potentially a roleblocker. When I got my role pm I cursed Iso for giving me a role normally associated with scum(from what I remember from the wiki), as this is my first time as a power role and I was worried that a mass claim would leave people assuming I'm scum because of it. (Guess I made it even worse than that...)
I don't understand why a Jailkeeper and an Elite Bodyguard can't exist in the smell game, it was not because of GJ's claim that I came clean, I knew I would have to eventually.
Does anyone believe that Imab "forgot" he had werewolf cleared me?
If DoTA's reasoning is to be believed, why would he not have blocked Nacho on Day 1 when he said he didn't believe him?
I blocked TappingStones on night 1 because of the argument with Vaimes at the end of the day. I targeted Wildfire on night 2, and on night 3, targeted TS again. After thinking about it for a bit I changed my target to Nachos because I couldn't understand how everyone was so willing to just accept his claim at face value, especially after he had kept promising catchup after catchup and not posting much else. I was also wary of how he was directing town away from players that some believed to be scum. I realise now that I was mistaken, both in blocking him on the night he was to use Xyre's gift and for suspecting him since, as was pointed out to Mr, his is the only role that would require a twilight period.
@Gentleman Johnny: Part of your case is based on my interactions with Sir Chris. Knowing that Imab werewolf cleared me, how does that affect your read of me?
I'm saddened to hear about how I'm ruining this game for you Xyre.
When I ruined the game for Zionite, Bur, Snurfy, Killjoy, and Generic in Animal Mafia I felt bad about it there too.
Then I ruined the game for KamikazeArchon in Avante Garde mafia. So his buddies Jobie and Sir Chris killed me.
Now I didn't ruin the game for Huntzilla or Sir Chris because I was afk and not mafia respectively although you can tell by my posts that I was planning on ruining Sir Chris' game.
However I do plan on continuing to ruin the game for you and all the other scum. Ruining games for scum is just what I do.
But instead of saying that this game is being "ruined", how about we use the word "solved"? Now you won't feel so bad.
How likely is it that gov could be a scum role in a multiball setup? No matter how I see it, it's just a way of canceling a lynch, which seems far too stupid a role to put in the hands of scum. It's even stupider in multiball because it's the equivalent of giving a scum two lives in a game where there's two nightkills.
I am troubled not by just DOTA's lie about his role, but he apparently lied about his motivations and his feelings about Nacho.
He RB'd Nacho because he was suspicious of Nacho (he tells us all now). But at the initial claim, he says he Jailkept Nacho because he thought Nacho was a likely NK target (i.e. he did not think Nacho was scum, he thought scum might try to kill him). These are, obviously, two very different things.
DOTA tells us he lied (if I understand this correctly) because he forgot that Nacho had been given gifts he could have used, and when he realized this he saw how scummy it looked, so he claimed JKeeper because it made his targeting of Nacho more reasonable sounding - and said it was to protect him and not to block him.
It's just super shady. And I have less difficulty believing a scum RBer could try and fake claim JKeeper, and then revise it later, than some people seem to have.
I don't like the mindset this is showing
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I mean, can't you just say "I blocked him because I was suspicious of him," (i.e. the truth) and go with that. What you are saying now. Isn't that what a Town player would do?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Also, while I'm thinking about it, we still don't know what Zionite's gift is, right?
I mean, Nacho knows, and TS knows because they are the ones who got them, yes? But it's not been clarified what it does. TS has outright refused to say (for reasons) But someone (I can't remember who) has said that there is supposedly good synergy between these gifts. That they are similar in some way?
The implication has been that Zionite's gift is the counterpart to Xyre's - that his gift allows someone to check if one is a Mafia as opposed to a Werewolf. And that seems to jibe with the roles names (Blacksmith vs. Silversmith) But this does not jibe at all with what TS is saying/doing.
I would like some clarification there.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Ugh. Axelrod, you make a good point. His early behavior is all I have to go on. And it explains why Xyre is so desperate to save Dota.
Okay, getting my head out of the sand.
Are you okay lynching Xyre and having Dota hammer?
(Mildly rambly ruminations: Well obviously we can't force him unless he doesn't play to his wincon. Which means we can't do a 2-for-1. Jesus christ we have to save Xyre for last. At least he can help us kill the other team (unless he makes bullets that kill his own team lol).)
Oh, TS received Zionite's gift? Why on earth did he do that?
If TS knows, the mafia know, so it's pointless trying to keep the information from them to try to make them blunder. So I'll just claim it.
Zionite's is the perfect inverse of my gift - instead of letting the recipient attempt to kill a werewolf, it lets the recipient become immune to mafia kills for the night.
Leave Xyre and lynch me. I'll flip town, no point in taking out two town players.
No! Don't do this! Come on people, we already went through this once with Tom (and really twice with Wildfire, though he didn't ask to be lynched for a blunder). We're going to lose because once again you all can't possibly wrap your minds around the concept of an innocent mistake.
Oh, TS received Zionite's gift? Why on earth did he do that?
If TS knows, the mafia know, so it's pointless trying to keep the information from them to try to make them blunder. So I'll just claim it.
Zionite's is the perfect inverse of my gift - instead of letting the recipient attempt to kill a werewolf, it lets the recipient become immune to mafia kills for the night.
Leave Xyre and lynch me. I'll flip town, no point in taking out two town players.
No! Don't do this! Come on people, we already went through this once with Tom (and really twice with Wildfire, though he didn't ask to be lynched for a blunder). We're going to lose because once again you all can't possibly wrap your minds around the concept of an innocent mistake.
While I do appreciate the lengths to which you have gone to defend me, it seems inevitable that I am going to be lynched. Maybe my flip will conice the rest of town to look closer at those who pushed my lynch now. GJ, TS and Imab in particular.
TS - Referred to my targeting Nachos as roleblocking after I claimed JK but before I admitted to being a roleblocker. Seppel, I'm begging you here. Put aside the argument between TappingStones and OceanBlack for a moment and read the rest of TS please.
Imab - He'll do anything to push through my lynch, as seen by his "forgetting" that he had cleared me of being a werewolf himself with his ability.
@ Axel: Except we know Dota can't be a werewolf because imab said it, and so why would he block Nacho and then lie about it? He has nothing to gain; everyone already knew what my gift did, so the mafia knew that it couldn't kill them, and indeed if Nacho used it on one of them that would actually be net-beneficial. Blocking him gives them nothing at all. So either Dota is a mafia who got horrible advice from his buddies, or he's town. QED.
Imab - He'll do anything to push through my lynch, as seen by his "forgetting" that he had cleared me of being a werewolf himself with his ability.
Do anything to push your lynch is quite a stretch. I opened this day not scumreading you, and voting Gentleman Johnny. I'd much rather have Xyre because he has a body of work when it comes to scumminess, but on last update he's still under Nacho's wing.
I think you're clinging to this who "IMAB DEFINITELY FORGOT" thing a little too hard especially after you got caught once already claiming I lied about my role when I actually didn't. Context isn't your thing. I told you it was a light night brain fart. If you want to try and make it something more than that you're going to have to back it up with some context. I'm 2/2 when calling people out on missing context and if you wanna go down this route I'm gonna be 3/3.
(1) is bunk, because the "voting interactions" are based almost entirely on guilt-by-association, the theory that he bussed his scum buddy with almost no pressure in play because he's both a new player and a tactical genius, and other circumstantial nonsense.
Voting, and then unvoting doesn't seem like a bus. It seems like an "I'll make sure my vote sticks". The reason this point flips has nothing to do with this, and more so the IMAB shot I missed.
(2) is bunk, because you glossed over all the times he did actually ask questions of and/or critically analyze the people he voted for, and because this argument requires believing that only scum do this.
"Critically analyze". Who is using loaded language now?
(3) is bunk, and you know it. The very fact that we've churned out four massive quote walls about it is enough to prove he's present, active, and prominent.
I pointed out several reasons why it wasn't. Post count in the 2300s means most non-replaced players (even lurkers) would also have a large wall. I find it incredibly telling that he really has had almost no interaction with this case short of posting his town games (which I haven't read yet).
And this is setting aside the far greater point that none of these are particularized to him; they're all just "scum often do X" points, devoid of any particular motivation analysis or anything else to suggest even a modicum of critical insight.
I hate meta typically, so I try to find town/scum motivations and following the mindset of the player. Town mindsets tend to flow better, and explanations to each of their posts come easier. Even if I was a meta freak, there is no scum meta for this particular player. There is also plenty of motivation access: Focusing on names and doing the analysis makes it look like he is doing work, without actually scum hunting.
In sum, I decree this case to be utter tripe.
He could claim scum, and you would tell me it was a phone swype error.
Quote from IMAB »
ty? My how the winds change. Xyre was begging Nacho to pardon "shifty" Tom during twilight of day 2
Great point, but it just means Xyre is defending him just because he is convinced I am scum. Scum Xyre would either do nothing or jump on unless both are on the same team.
Quote from Xyre »
I thought he was town and shifty. Even I can admit that people were reasonable in suspecting him; I just thought he was more likely playing badly than being genuinely insidious. Turns out I was right.
Were you suspicious of Jobie at the time? I can't recall.
And we can play the synonym game all you want; you know what I mean. Anything that sounds wrong but doesn't fall into a clear-cut category of scum-tell. You may not use the exact word often, but the case is full of the concept.
Except, what you said is:
(stated) "this post is weird"
The quotations imply I kept saying that. The "weird" part is that mindset not coming together for me. I followed his votes, his interactions, and his reasons for moving around, and I am not getting a complete picture. I am not going to pretend the case is a slam dunk, but his behavior that I have read, followed by his shenanigans with mixing up his role.
By the way, I didn't see who brought it up, but in addition to what Axel said about the motivation of Nacho being incorrect, my claim was post 2227. His confession was 2240. I want everyone who has been saying there was no scum motivation to take off the "protect" part of his role to address that.
We have four ******* days. TS, how is that Etr read coming along? Nacho, how is your catch up coming along? Can both of you at least give us the abridged version? I don't know how confidant we can be to coming to a conclusion about a player.
Everyone else, state your top three and figure something out. Nacho, bare minimum say who (if anyone) you will refuse to lynch so we don't waste time on that.
(my top three is Dota > IMAB > Etr). I was going to hold off on this due to wanting to see TS's case, and a strong feeling that unless my last point sticks, Nacho will likely pardon Dota over lynching him.
@ Axel: Except we know Dota can't be a werewolf because imab said it, and so why would he block Nacho and then lie about it? He has nothing to gain; everyone already knew what my gift did, so the mafia knew that it couldn't kill them, and indeed if Nacho used it on one of them that would actually be net-beneficial. Blocking him gives them nothing at all. So either Dota is a mafia who got horrible advice from his buddies, or he's town. QED.
Aren't you scum-reading iamb? You're doing the same thing where you think someone is scum, but also believe they are telling the truth?
That aside, and if we assume for the moment that iamb is telling the truth and DOTA can only be Mafia, then I might agree that at first blush it makes less sense for the Mafia to RB Nacho, knowing that he had a gift that detects Werewolves, as it's a gift that does nothing to hurt them. But, it seems like there could still be reasons why they might still do the same, perhaps the most obvious being the "why would I do that if I were scum" one. If you've got a role that looks scummy, and you plan to claim it.
I'm definitely not sold on DOTA yet. Still considering. In my copious free time.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I trust imab on that point because the only reason to distrust him would be if both he and Dota were scum buddies, and that is inconsistent with their interactions.
Either way, it makes no sense to lynch the person who could not be scum without imab also being scum first. Even if you discount everything else I've said in exhaustive defense of Dota, that should be plain as day.
Lynch imab now, and we consider the totality of the circumstances regarding Dota tomorrow. The benefit of that also being it gives my gift recipients the chance to test Antny and kill the werewolves off in one fell swoop, which I still think is the only way we can win from this position.
The thing that gets me is that Nacho was going to confirm Imab's alignment, and Dota prevented that from happening. It doesn't speak to Imab's alignment, because Dota could just be trying to reduce the number of confirmed townies. But it definitely speaks to Dota's alignment.
The thing that gets me is that Nacho was going to confirm Imab's alignment, and Dota prevented that from happening. It doesn't speak to Imab's alignment, because Dota could just be trying to reduce the number of confirmed townies. But it definitely speaks to Dota's alignment.
Except (a) you still have no reason to say it couldn't have been a genuine error, (b) blocking Zionite or me is far more likely to achieve concrete results, especially if imab is town, and (c) we already have a surfeit of semi-confirmed people, for all the good that's done us.
Didn't know we had 4 days, catching up as soon as possible.
People who are around, engage me about DoT: if he is Mafia Roleblocker, I have no idea why he doesn't just shut up and block me quietly. His thought process about thinking his role was scummy and fakeclaiming jailkeeper instead makes sense based on his experience with mafia so far (newbie setup; roleblockers are always mafia and jailkeepers are always town). I don't believe a derp is impossible. I don't believe he'd immediately switch his claim because too many protective roles, that's dumb.
I think lynching imab when we can confirm him as town is not a good plan of action at all - we aren't in a significantly better position if we wipe out werewolves today and making a suboptimal move to bank on that possibility is foolish when it's not a fantastic possibility in the first place.
If DoTA's reasoning is to be believed, why would he not have blocked Nacho on Day 1 when he said he didn't believe him?
I blocked TappingStones on night 1 because of the argument with Vaimes at the end of the day. I targeted Wildfire on night 2, and on night 3, targeted TS again. After thinking about it for a bit I changed my target to Nachos because I couldn't understand how everyone was so willing to just accept his claim at face value, especially after he had kept promising catchup after catchup and not posting much else. I was also wary of how he was directing town away from players that some believed to be scum. I realise now that I was mistaken, both in blocking him on the night he was to use Xyre's gift and for suspecting him since, as was pointed out to Mr, his is the only role that would require a twilight period.
This post alone would be hard for scum to fake: I love the detail about DoT targeting TS first and then getting paranoid about me later and is more likely to come from town; scum usually include details about waffling about night actions during the night far less than town do. I really, really don't see the scum motivation in DotA bringing up paranoia of me if scum at this point; I'm not getting lynched at this point, DoT would be aware of that, getting on my good side would be far more important than anything else.
I'm saddened to hear about how I'm ruining this game for you Xyre.
When I ruined the game for Zionite, Bur, Snurfy, Killjoy, and Generic in Animal Mafia I felt bad about it there too.
Then I ruined the game for KamikazeArchon in Avante Garde mafia. So his buddies Jobie and Sir Chris killed me.
Now I didn't ruin the game for Huntzilla or Sir Chris because I was afk and not mafia respectively although you can tell by my posts that I was planning on ruining Sir Chris' game.
However I do plan on continuing to ruin the game for you and all the other scum. Ruining games for scum is just what I do.
But instead of saying that this game is being "ruined", how about we use the word "solved"? Now you won't feel so bad.
DOTA tells us he lied (if I understand this correctly) because he forgot that Nacho had been given gifts he could have used, and when he realized this he saw how scummy it looked, so he claimed JKeeper because it made his targeting of Nacho more reasonable sounding - and said it was to protect him and not to block him.
DoT claimed Jailkeeper over Roleblocker because, based on his experience with mafia so far, he incorrectly thought Roleblocker was a very scummy role. There is no reason for him, as scum, to start claiming Jailkeeper and switch to a Roleblocker claim except for the protective role claim which is very, very dumb. If DoT was my scumpartner, I wouldn't let him pull dumb shenanigans like that. I think all other players here are experienced enough to do the same for him and he's a very active, very vocal player; don't think he'd do this alone without consulting.
Xyre, if there is any other information that makes you think EtR is town other than "he knows who targeted me" (because that really isn't a sweet reason, I know who targeted you too).
Holy crap how is this even up for debate? I feel like all the pieces have fallen into place, and everyone else hasn't even opened the box of pieces.
DoT claimed Jailkeeper over Roleblocker because, based on his experience with mafia so far, he incorrectly thought Roleblocker was a very scummy role.
How does this not point to him being scum?
There is no reason for him, as scum, to start claiming Jailkeeper and switch to a Roleblocker claim except for the protective role claim which is very, very dumb.
How is this alignment indicative? At the very least how is it indicative of a town mindset?
I think lynching imab when we can confirm him as town is not a good plan of action at all - we aren't in a significantly better position if we wipe out werewolves today and making a suboptimal move to bank on that possibility is foolish when it's not a fantastic possibility in the first place.
I want to kill EtR.
How about Antny as a compromise? Do you think he's town or scum?
There have been enough points put together that for DoTA to be scum, IABM would have to be as well.
My preferred lynch order is:
Businessman
DoTA
Antny
TappingStones
For today. I still have no idea what to make of Seppel so I'm going to have to reread him, not that I think it'll do any good. Axel and nacho I have as town. Xyre being Zionite's mirror town clears him in my mind.
There is basically no way in hell that DoT is scum. It doesn't actually make sense for scum to claim the Jailkeeper --> Roleblock thing on me; he wasn't caught out by his Jailkeeper claim, and the random paranoia of me because people aren't questioning me enough is well within the range of his town game but not so much within the range of his scum game.
Which games have you played with Dota?
I played in DoT's first game with him.
Which was a town game, which makes me wonder how you can be so confident in the bolded.
Both my newbie games on Mafiascum had Jailkeeper's, and because of how they set them up, potentially a roleblocker. When I got my role pm I cursed Iso for giving me a role normally associated with scum(from what I remember from the wiki), as this is my first time as a power role and I was worried that a mass claim would leave people assuming I'm scum because of it. (Guess I made it even worse than that...)
I don't understand why a Jailkeeper and an Elite Bodyguard can't exist in the smell game, it was not because of GJ's claim that I came clean, I knew I would have to eventually.
If it wasn't GJ claim, then what was the reason you came clean?
I trust imab on that point because the only reason to distrust him would be if both he and Dota were scum buddies, and that is inconsistent with their interactions.
Either way, it makes no sense to lynch the person who could not be scum without imab also being scum first. Even if you discount everything else I've said in exhaustive defense of Dota, that should be plain as day.
Lynch imab now, and we consider the totality of the circumstances regarding Dota tomorrow. The benefit of that also being it gives my gift recipients the chance to test Antny and kill the werewolves off in one fell swoop, which I still think is the only way we can win from this position.
This makes no sense. If Imab is scum he’s almost certainly not the role he claimed, as it would no sense as a scum role.
I still want Dota for the lynch. If that's not happening, and Nacho won't shift on Tapping, then I'll move to EtR.
Both my newbie games on Mafiascum had Jailkeeper's, and because of how they set them up, potentially a roleblocker. When I got my role pm I cursed Iso for giving me a role normally associated with scum(from what I remember from the wiki), as this is my first time as a power role and I was worried that a mass claim would leave people assuming I'm scum because of it. (Guess I made it even worse than that...)
I don't understand why a Jailkeeper and an Elite Bodyguard can't exist in the smell game, it was not because of GJ's claim that I came clean, I knew I would have to eventually.
If it wasn't GJ claim, then what was the reason you came clean?
When I made the first claim I knew I would have to claim my actual role eventually, so I decided I'd wait until we had everyone's claims so as not to distract the game from completing it first.
Can someone explain to me why a Jailkeeper and an Elite Bodyguard can't exist together?
Is it common to refer to the target of a Jailkeeper as having been "roleblocked" and not "jailed"?
Why Xyre? I've seen a few people refer to his play as terrible in this game, but I have him as my top town read. If you don't want to lynch Antny, how do you feel about lynching Imab?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Nacho, did you ever answer who you will refuse to lynch?
Quote from Seppel »
The thing that gets me is that Nacho was going to confirm Imab's alignment, and Dota prevented that from happening. It doesn't speak to Imab's alignment, because Dota could just be trying to reduce the number of confirmed townies. But it definitely speaks to Dota's alignment.
Literally this.
Quote from Dota »
When I made the first claim I knew I would have to claim my actual role eventually, so I decided I'd wait until we had everyone's claims so as not to distract the game from completing it first.
Are you saying you knew the second you made your post, you were mistaken?
Quote from Xyre »
Either way, it makes no sense to lynch the person who could not be scum without imab also being scum first. Even if you discount everything else I've said in exhaustive defense of Dota, that should be plain as day.
If I reread correctly, Dota is only werewolf cleared. You know from Tom that IMAB is not mafia, how is it not possible that IMAB could be town, and Dota mafia?
Quote from Nacho »
People who are around, engage me about DoT: if he is Mafia Roleblocker, I have no idea why he doesn't just shut up and block me quietly. His thought process about thinking his role was scummy and fakeclaiming jailkeeper instead makes sense based on his experience with mafia so far (newbie setup; roleblockers are always mafia and jailkeepers are always town). I don't believe a derp is impossible. I don't believe he'd immediately switch his claim because too many protective roles, that's dumb.
That would be the optimal play as scum, but as he has shown, Dota is not making the optimal play if he is town either. I don't get how you are double dipping on not making a good town play = town not making a good scum play = town.
I think lynching imab when we can confirm him as town is not a good plan of action at all - we aren't in a significantly better position if we wipe out werewolves today and making a suboptimal move to bank on that possibility is foolish when it's not a fantastic possibility in the first place.
I want to kill EtR.
The process going through my mind right now is that no one else that I recall has claimed being roleblocked. Meaning that, neither team doesn't has one, or isn't hitting town power roles. If dota flips mafia roleblocker, I probably die tomorrow, meaning you all get to narrow down the field even more. I don't think either team will try gambling to kill Xyre/Nacho with me around, so Xyre gets to gift another person.
@Everyone:
By the way, I didn't see who brought it up, but in addition to what Axel said about the motivation of Nacho being incorrect, my claim was post 2227. His confession was 2240. I want everyone who has been saying there was no scum motivation to take off the "protect" part of his role to address that
Either way, it makes no sense to lynch the person who could not be scum without imab also being scum first. Even if you discount everything else I've said in exhaustive defense of Dota, that should be plain as day.
If I reread correctly, Dota is only werewolf cleared. You know from Tom that IMAB is not mafia, how is it not possible that IMAB could be town, and Dota mafia?
It's not impossible, but Dota's play makes no sense coming from a mafia. Setting aside that he had no reason to suddenly tell the truth (because an elite bodyguard is not incompatible with a jailkeeper, even if you are telling the truth), the mafia gained almost nothing from roleblocking Nacho, because his ability didn't hurt them at all and could even have benefited them by werewolf-clearing one of them. Far better to roleblock Zionite or really anyone else.
In other words, believing Dota is mafia requires believing that he and his scum partner both made a series of sub-optimal strategic plays, on top of disbelieving that Dota is the kind of person who could make an innocent newb mistake.
Are we all at least on the same page there?
This is not something I will be answering.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
En-thay s-iay ot-nay omething-say I-ay ill-way e-bay nswering-ay.
(rofl ebay)
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't understand why a Jailkeeper and an Elite Bodyguard can't exist in the smell game, it was not because of GJ's claim that I came clean, I knew I would have to eventually.
Does anyone believe that Imab "forgot" he had werewolf cleared me?
When I ruined the game for Zionite, Bur, Snurfy, Killjoy, and Generic in Animal Mafia I felt bad about it there too.
Then I ruined the game for KamikazeArchon in Avante Garde mafia. So his buddies Jobie and Sir Chris killed me.
Now I didn't ruin the game for Huntzilla or Sir Chris because I was afk and not mafia respectively although you can tell by my posts that I was planning on ruining Sir Chris' game.
However I do plan on continuing to ruin the game for you and all the other scum. Ruining games for scum is just what I do.
But instead of saying that this game is being "ruined", how about we use the word "solved"? Now you won't feel so bad.
He RB'd Nacho because he was suspicious of Nacho (he tells us all now). But at the initial claim, he says he Jailkept Nacho because he thought Nacho was a likely NK target (i.e. he did not think Nacho was scum, he thought scum might try to kill him). These are, obviously, two very different things.
DOTA tells us he lied (if I understand this correctly) because he forgot that Nacho had been given gifts he could have used, and when he realized this he saw how scummy it looked, so he claimed JKeeper because it made his targeting of Nacho more reasonable sounding - and said it was to protect him and not to block him.
It's just super shady. And I have less difficulty believing a scum RBer could try and fake claim JKeeper, and then revise it later, than some people seem to have.
I don't like the mindset this is showing
I mean, Nacho knows, and TS knows because they are the ones who got them, yes? But it's not been clarified what it does. TS has outright refused to say (for reasons) But someone (I can't remember who) has said that there is supposedly good synergy between these gifts. That they are similar in some way?
The implication has been that Zionite's gift is the counterpart to Xyre's - that his gift allows someone to check if one is a Mafia as opposed to a Werewolf. And that seems to jibe with the roles names (Blacksmith vs. Silversmith) But this does not jibe at all with what TS is saying/doing.
I would like some clarification there.
Okay, getting my head out of the sand.
Are you okay lynching Xyre and having Dota hammer?
(Mildly rambly ruminations: Well obviously we can't force him unless he doesn't play to his wincon. Which means we can't do a 2-for-1. Jesus christ we have to save Xyre for last. At least he can help us kill the other team (unless he makes bullets that kill his own team lol).)
If TS knows, the mafia know, so it's pointless trying to keep the information from them to try to make them blunder. So I'll just claim it.
Zionite's is the perfect inverse of my gift - instead of letting the recipient attempt to kill a werewolf, it lets the recipient become immune to mafia kills for the night.
No! Don't do this! Come on people, we already went through this once with Tom (and really twice with Wildfire, though he didn't ask to be lynched for a blunder). We're going to lose because once again you all can't possibly wrap your minds around the concept of an innocent mistake.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
TS - Referred to my targeting Nachos as roleblocking after I claimed JK but before I admitted to being a roleblocker. Seppel, I'm begging you here. Put aside the argument between TappingStones and OceanBlack for a moment and read the rest of TS please.
Imab - He'll do anything to push through my lynch, as seen by his "forgetting" that he had cleared me of being a werewolf himself with his ability.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Do anything to push your lynch is quite a stretch. I opened this day not scumreading you, and voting Gentleman Johnny. I'd much rather have Xyre because he has a body of work when it comes to scumminess, but on last update he's still under Nacho's wing.
I think you're clinging to this who "IMAB DEFINITELY FORGOT" thing a little too hard especially after you got caught once already claiming I lied about my role when I actually didn't. Context isn't your thing. I told you it was a light night brain fart. If you want to try and make it something more than that you're going to have to back it up with some context. I'm 2/2 when calling people out on missing context and if you wanna go down this route I'm gonna be 3/3.
Voting, and then unvoting doesn't seem like a bus. It seems like an "I'll make sure my vote sticks". The reason this point flips has nothing to do with this, and more so the IMAB shot I missed.
"Critically analyze". Who is using loaded language now?
I pointed out several reasons why it wasn't. Post count in the 2300s means most non-replaced players (even lurkers) would also have a large wall. I find it incredibly telling that he really has had almost no interaction with this case short of posting his town games (which I haven't read yet).
I hate meta typically, so I try to find town/scum motivations and following the mindset of the player. Town mindsets tend to flow better, and explanations to each of their posts come easier. Even if I was a meta freak, there is no scum meta for this particular player. There is also plenty of motivation access: Focusing on names and doing the analysis makes it look like he is doing work, without actually scum hunting.
He could claim scum, and you would tell me it was a phone swype error.
Great point, but it just means Xyre is defending him just because he is convinced I am scum. Scum Xyre would either do nothing or jump on unless both are on the same team.
Were you suspicious of Jobie at the time? I can't recall.
Except, what you said is:
The quotations imply I kept saying that. The "weird" part is that mindset not coming together for me. I followed his votes, his interactions, and his reasons for moving around, and I am not getting a complete picture. I am not going to pretend the case is a slam dunk, but his behavior that I have read, followed by his shenanigans with mixing up his role.
By the way, I didn't see who brought it up, but in addition to what Axel said about the motivation of Nacho being incorrect, my claim was post 2227. His confession was 2240. I want everyone who has been saying there was no scum motivation to take off the "protect" part of his role to address that.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Everyone else, state your top three and figure something out. Nacho, bare minimum say who (if anyone) you will refuse to lynch so we don't waste time on that.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Aren't you scum-reading iamb? You're doing the same thing where you think someone is scum, but also believe they are telling the truth?
That aside, and if we assume for the moment that iamb is telling the truth and DOTA can only be Mafia, then I might agree that at first blush it makes less sense for the Mafia to RB Nacho, knowing that he had a gift that detects Werewolves, as it's a gift that does nothing to hurt them. But, it seems like there could still be reasons why they might still do the same, perhaps the most obvious being the "why would I do that if I were scum" one. If you've got a role that looks scummy, and you plan to claim it.
I'm definitely not sold on DOTA yet. Still considering. In my copious free time.
Gun to your head, who do you lynch today Axel?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Either way, it makes no sense to lynch the person who could not be scum without imab also being scum first. Even if you discount everything else I've said in exhaustive defense of Dota, that should be plain as day.
Lynch imab now, and we consider the totality of the circumstances regarding Dota tomorrow. The benefit of that also being it gives my gift recipients the chance to test Antny and kill the werewolves off in one fell swoop, which I still think is the only way we can win from this position.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
People who are around, engage me about DoT: if he is Mafia Roleblocker, I have no idea why he doesn't just shut up and block me quietly. His thought process about thinking his role was scummy and fakeclaiming jailkeeper instead makes sense based on his experience with mafia so far (newbie setup; roleblockers are always mafia and jailkeepers are always town). I don't believe a derp is impossible. I don't believe he'd immediately switch his claim because too many protective roles, that's dumb.
I want to kill EtR.
This post alone would be hard for scum to fake: I love the detail about DoT targeting TS first and then getting paranoid about me later and is more likely to come from town; scum usually include details about waffling about night actions during the night far less than town do. I really, really don't see the scum motivation in DotA bringing up paranoia of me if scum at this point; I'm not getting lynched at this point, DoT would be aware of that, getting on my good side would be far more important than anything else.
This is a town post.
DoT claimed Jailkeeper over Roleblocker because, based on his experience with mafia so far, he incorrectly thought Roleblocker was a very scummy role. There is no reason for him, as scum, to start claiming Jailkeeper and switch to a Roleblocker claim except for the protective role claim which is very, very dumb. If DoT was my scumpartner, I wouldn't let him pull dumb shenanigans like that. I think all other players here are experienced enough to do the same for him and he's a very active, very vocal player; don't think he'd do this alone without consulting.
Xyre, if there is any other information that makes you think EtR is town other than "he knows who targeted me" (because that really isn't a sweet reason, I know who targeted you too).
Seppel is also pretty likely to be scum.
GJ seems much townier as of late.
How does this not point to him being scum?
How is this alignment indicative? At the very least how is it indicative of a town mindset?
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
There have been enough points put together that for DoTA to be scum, IABM would have to be as well.
My preferred lynch order is:
Businessman
DoTA
Antny
TappingStones
For today. I still have no idea what to make of Seppel so I'm going to have to reread him, not that I think it'll do any good. Axel and nacho I have as town. Xyre being Zionite's mirror town clears him in my mind.
Which was a town game, which makes me wonder how you can be so confident in the bolded.
What exactly did you find so convincing?
If it wasn't GJ claim, then what was the reason you came clean?
This makes no sense. If Imab is scum he’s almost certainly not the role he claimed, as it would no sense as a scum role.
I still want Dota for the lynch. If that's not happening, and Nacho won't shift on Tapping, then I'll move to EtR.
Can someone explain to me why a Jailkeeper and an Elite Bodyguard can't exist together?
Is it common to refer to the target of a Jailkeeper as having been "roleblocked" and not "jailed"?
I support a Xyre or a Dota lynch.
Everyone else is boring.
The holidays are over, so deadline is set for January 17th at 0000 hours EST.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
... And the only person you've been pushing all day today is the person who would be 100% town confirmed had you not completely screwed up.
And you changed your claim after people pointed out that there are logical inconsistency of your behavior
Why are you town?
@DoTArchon
And that's how not why.
Nacho, did you ever answer who you will refuse to lynch?
Literally this.
Are you saying you knew the second you made your post, you were mistaken?
If I reread correctly, Dota is only werewolf cleared. You know from Tom that IMAB is not mafia, how is it not possible that IMAB could be town, and Dota mafia?
That would be the optimal play as scum, but as he has shown, Dota is not making the optimal play if he is town either. I don't get how you are double dipping on not making a good town play = town not making a good scum play = town.
The process going through my mind right now is that no one else that I recall has claimed being roleblocked. Meaning that, neither team doesn't has one, or isn't hitting town power roles. If dota flips mafia roleblocker, I probably die tomorrow, meaning you all get to narrow down the field even more. I don't think either team will try gambling to kill Xyre/Nacho with me around, so Xyre gets to gift another person.
@Everyone:
@Axel Where are you at dude?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
In other words, believing Dota is mafia requires believing that he and his scum partner both made a series of sub-optimal strategic plays, on top of disbelieving that Dota is the kind of person who could make an innocent newb mistake.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia