But who is he trolling with that post? The whole Town? The Scum? Everyone that isn't him? What kind of sense does that make?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Thank you for extending the deadline an additional two days. The full moons here were absolutely beautiful and I spent all night admiring them. Also can you extend the next night phase to 168 hrs? I don't think night phase is taking long enough.
I'm not saying Antny is town. I want to read him as town because his case seems too bad for scum.
You would be surprised. Scum tend to twist words around to create motivations that could fit in, but don't make sense. I somehow convinced the entire town on Star Trek that the towniest player was scum because he just decided to bus his entire mafia team. It worked. I don't know Antny, but do you think he is intentionally misrepping you, or do you think he is doing it purposefully?
@GJ-You used "seems" three separate times in your response to me. That word is cautionary and I'm not sure why you're writing so carefully when speaking to me.
My confidence took a rather large hit after the invitational. Aside from that, I have never been super confidant in my reads, so I tend to use words like seems, likely, probably, ect.
Quote from Seppel »
GJ weren't you asking me a question?
What gambit were you referring to from yesterday? You said you thought I was scum, but because I pulled some gambit in the invitational, you were reading me as town. I have no idea what gambit you are referring to...
Quote from IMAB »
No such case exists which is why nobody's made one. GJ is more than happy to sling suspicion while hiding in the background and not making waves.
I feel like I have fallen into the twilight zone. What is happening this game?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I'll admit, there was a part of me that hoped I'd wake up dead.
I think Seppel's wrong and we have four surviving scum. Or at least that's my cautionary working assumption. Process of elimination would then suggest it's four of Axel, GJ, Seppel, TS, and Antny. Of those five, I think Seppel is the one I'd leave out, albeit unhappily. He's just been so wrong this game that I can't see him doing it deliberately.
I'm out of town for a few days and this won't be able to case Axel, but consider my vote there.
Nacho, what's the news from last night?
@Xyre-Why is IABM stone clear from your point of view?
There are two possible explanations here: IMAB is a wily fool, or just a fool. I don't think there's any explanation for all his weird behavior (the early claim, the tomsloger investigation, his opinions, etc.) that makes sense from a cunning person's perspective. I think some wire got crossed somewhere that explains all these weird occurrences which we'll never find out before the game ends, and until then, I've gotta go with Occam's Razor.
Or, put it another way: if at the end of the game, we lost because IMAB is scum, I'll chalk that up to "something screwy went wrong" and feel less bad than if I get outfoxed by Axel or GJ or you.
Alright, turns out I did manage to find some time for the case. So here goes:
An Ax(elrod) to Grind
As I mentioned when I originally added him to my scum list, Axel has made a lot of posts that asked questions that don't seem to be aimed at eliciting any real results. A lot of these could go either way, like his first post (#32), but I feel like over time, more and more of them start to feel less like the posts of someone trying to understand what is going on than someone trying to pretend to be lost and looking for guidance. Axelrod is a smart guy; by now, I'd expect him to have the game mostly pinned down. And while it's true that this game has thrown a lot of good players for a loop (see: Seppel), exhibiting this level of befuddlement throughout is strange.
The other thing that stands out, time and again, from Axelrod is the use of hedging language. Yes, yes, I know, this is a soft tell, but again, to the sheer degree it's used, I feel like it reflects someone who deliberately wants to avoid being tied down. See, e.g., #140, which reads in its entirety "I may feel about the same" (in reply to a quote by Seppel calling OceanBlack town). Now, again, there's a plausible explanation for this opinion - Axel had just gotten into a bickering match over OceanBlack blowing Jobie's RVS out of proportion. But the particular phrasing bothers me; it feels overly calculated, like Axel recognized OceanBlack would be a safe person to call likely town but couldn't bring himself to say it straight.
Another typical post is #254, in which Axel spots some weird language used by TappingStones, says it gives him the "heebie-jeebies", but doesn't vote on it; he just says "yuck". Up to this point, the only person he's voted was me (for voting imab based on his cop claim). True, he does vote TS after a full read in 297. And again, maybe this is just how Axel operates. But I don't like it.
And the case itself is really mediocre - half the things Axel points to he admits himself are non-indicative, and most of the rest are based on poor reasoning, rather than scummy behavior per se. Also, note that some of the things Axel calls TS out for ("given no strong opinions", "'looking into' them without stating any actual opinions") can fit on the other foot as well. Pretty much the entire post reads like someone who wanted to backfill a position he already held, rather than actually reaching the conclusion based on all these posts he claims to have gone back and read. Or, to put it another way - it reads like Axel judged each post individually, and found each to be largely non-indicative of itself, but then decided that the totality of them nonetheless made TS scum. I don't like it. (Yes, I know Zionite and I both said we liked it. We were wrong. Go team.)
Buckle up, kids; it ain't getting any less bumpy from here.
More hypocritical complaining about insubstantial accusations in #469, as compared with #432. In the latter, Axel deployed a bunch of rote judgments about a series of posts. But when Jobie gives "strikes" against Rodemy and Tapping in #347, it's suspicious? Both give the same feeling of someone just reading through, taking notes along the way, and then trying to distill them down to a post. This post (469) also feels like an opinion seeking evidence, rather than the other way around, with its dismissive (not in a condescending way, but in a checklist way - "this is gone, this is gone, this is gone") tone.
Also, for what it's worse, his hard push on myself, Jobie, and Zionite (see #647 and 650) looks a lot worse now that we know that all three of us are/were non-scum. Again, I'll admit I thought both Jobie and Zionite were scum, myself. But narrowing it down to three people and pushing hard for one of them to be lynched feels like a tactic a scum would employ if he knew either way he'd benefit.
#668: Uh... italics tell? That's not really a thing. But aside from that (which, really - why is the word "barn" italicized here, except to draw undue attention to it?) this case is pretty weak - agreeing with someone and then thinking that person could be malicious two hundred posts later, without context on the in-between or whether those two positions are actually inconsistent, is pretty weak logic. Also, why case only the posts about himself (Axel)? Why not a full PBPA? Could it be that Axel doesn't actually care what Zionite says about anyone else?
Axelrod and I had very similar opinions about the Huntzilla lynch, i.e. that it was going too fast for the amount of actual evidence at our fingertips. The logic still sounds reasonable to me. Plus I doubt that Axel is mafia, because the kill targets chosen (specifically tordeck and Sir Chris) don't really make sense to me based. I think the person/people who killed Chris in particular are newer players who killed him based principally on his reputation. That doesn't sound like Axel, who was highly skeptical of Chris's purported reputation in Day 1; if Axel's scum, he's very likely a werewolf who was hedging his bets preparing to bus Sir Chris Day 1. (See #1276, e.g.) Which makes me think his reaction to the Huntzilla lynch could go either way, like his opinion itself.
Also, apropos of nothing, #1369 (by GJ) looks pretty ugly. Maybe a SC-GJ-Axel team? Which would suggest a Hunt-Antny-TS mafia... which actually might make sense. Anyway, I'm getting off track. I'll do a GJ case next.
Okay, scratch everything I just said about imabusinessman. I've got a new wild hunch: the scum are TS + GJ (mafia), and Antny + IMAB (werewolf). I'll explain tomorrow.
I think the town's power roles are all and only the TMNT characters. Think about it: so far the only townies with abilities we've seen (discounting the two neutrals) have been Zionite (Raphael), Xyre (Leonardo), Nacho (Casey), April (Vaimes), and DoTA (Michaelangelo). That leaves two others - EtR (Ninjara) and Axelrod (Donatello). I suspect both of them are also townies with abilities of some type.
That immediately puts imabusinessman on the outs, because he's a claimed investigator who nonetheless isn't a TMNT character. Since I trust tomsloger's result, that makes imab a werewolf. Which actually makes sense, the more I think about it - that would make Necarg's vote of imab for claiming a sort of freakout-bus, which I've definitely seen scum do to their buddies before when the buddy does something weird (though I can't remember the specific game).
The remaining suspects then are Antny, GJ, TS, and Seppel. And I think I'd set Seppel out as most likely town of those four. Plus it would explain one other overlap in role names - GJ and TS, aka Mario and Luigi. I rather doubt at this point that those two are on different teams. Ergo, both mafia, and Antny is a werewolf.
Screw it, I'm jumping ship completely on finishing the Axel PBPA to do Antny instead.
#208 is his first substantive post, and already I'm feeling bad about Antny. This is the same thing I pinpointed about Sir Chris - acknowledging your weird behavior isn't the same thing as not acting weirdly. This feels like an attempt to participate cloaked in "irony".
The Rodemy vote is a fake trap, but as with most fake traps, there's just enough of a grain of mixed-up reason there that it could be a legitimate attempt at trapping scum, rather than a scum trying to trap a townie. So I'm just not gonna touch that.
Interesting that imab defends Antny (231) and vice-versa (288). Putting that in my pocket for the moment.
#343 is ugly, especially the last part, in which Antny seems to essentially vote tomsloger for not looking up some mafiascum wiki pages.
I'm not even going to try to parse #648.
#787: "Ok, I'm jumping on the Xyre train." No context, no nothin'. And he put me in the middle of his Z/X/J response just one page prior, too. This is mercenary. And then in 825, he pivots right back to tom. So what was the point in voting for me? Just to be a warm body on the wagon? What townie purpose does that serve?
(If it seems like there are a lot of gaps here, it's because (a) most of Antny's posts have been engaged with having tom lynched, the flaws in which are sort of non-indicative at this point, and (b) he disappears for big swaths of time.)
#1971: For someone who's consistently defended imab and his claimm, "Worst defence possible" is not what I expect to hear from Antny regarding imab's defense against me. This and the skepticism above it feel like a pre-bus - skepticism without follow-through or future reference.
Oh, and also I find it amusing and perhaps apropos that imabusinessman is far more accommodating to Antny's requests for clarification (viz. 1983) than other people's. The responses read like they were made by entirely different posters.
#1995-1999: "When did I say I didn't have a case on you, Tapping?" "Okay, let's hear the case." "I don't have a case."
Turns into self-pitying in #2007. Who's kicking you, Antny? Are you really that bent out of shape by one person calling you on your BS?
#2012 etc.: Gives reads without context, and insists his posts explain why. They don't. Gripes about the criticism at surprising length for someone who professes to not have enough time for the game proper.
#2094: Not useful. Could be because Antny is simply lost, but it's especially weird that he pinpoints a full four scum suspects in 2012 and then can't really be asked to squeeze them into the scum slots or explain how Zionite fits into that picture whatsoever. (Also, for what it's worth, he never questioned that there might be four more scum left, or even make mention of Seppel's contrary concerns. That feels like a bit of a slip.)
#2104: His TS case isn't good. It just... isn't. Also, the language read which Seppel notes works on Antny as well, as mentioned above.
For what it's worth, TS's response to Antny's case also isn't good.
#2126: No explanation = bad sign, since this is yet another example of Antny protecting imab for unclear reasons.
Screw it, I'm jumping ship completely on finishing the Axel PBPA to do Antny instead.
#208 is his first substantive post, and already I'm feeling bad about Antny. This is the same thing I pinpointed about Sir Chris - acknowledging your weird behavior isn't the same thing as not acting weirdly. This feels like an attempt to participate cloaked in "irony".
The Rodemy vote is a fake trap, but as with most fake traps, there's just enough of a grain of mixed-up reason there that it could be a legitimate attempt at trapping scum, rather than a scum trying to trap a townie. So I'm just not gonna touch that.
Interesting that imab defends Antny (231) and vice-versa (288). Putting that in my pocket for the moment.
#343 is ugly, especially the last part, in which Antny seems to essentially vote tomsloger for not looking up some mafiascum wiki pages.
I'm not even going to try to parse #648.
#787: "Ok, I'm jumping on the Xyre train." No context, no nothin'. And he put me in the middle of his Z/X/J response just one page prior, too. This is mercenary. And then in 825, he pivots right back to tom. So what was the point in voting for me? Just to be a warm body on the wagon? What townie purpose does that serve?
(If it seems like there are a lot of gaps here, it's because (a) most of Antny's posts have been engaged with having tom lynched, the flaws in which are sort of non-indicative at this point, and (b) he disappears for big swaths of time.)
#1971: For someone who's consistently defended imab and his claimm, "Worst defence possible" is not what I expect to hear from Antny regarding imab's defense against me. This and the skepticism above it feel like a pre-bus - skepticism without follow-through or future reference.
Oh, and also I find it amusing and perhaps apropos that imabusinessman is far more accommodating to Antny's requests for clarification (viz. 1983) than other people's. The responses read like they were made by entirely different posters.
#1995-1999: "When did I say I didn't have a case on you, Tapping?" "Okay, let's hear the case." "I don't have a case."
Turns into self-pitying in #2007. Who's kicking you, Antny? Are you really that bent out of shape by one person calling you on your BS?
#2012 etc.: Gives reads without context, and insists his posts explain why. They don't. Gripes about the criticism at surprising length for someone who professes to not have enough time for the game proper.
#2094: Not useful. Could be because Antny is simply lost, but it's especially weird that he pinpoints a full four scum suspects in 2012 and then can't really be asked to squeeze them into the scum slots or explain how Zionite fits into that picture whatsoever. (Also, for what it's worth, he never questioned that there might be four more scum left, or even make mention of Seppel's contrary concerns. That feels like a bit of a slip.)
#2104: His TS case isn't good. It just... isn't. Also, the language read which Seppel notes works on Antny as well, as mentioned above.
For what it's worth, TS's response to Antny's case also isn't good.
#2126: No explanation = bad sign, since this is yet another example of Antny protecting imab for unclear reasons.
Prepare the airlock. Vote Antny223
I'm going to have to call you out here Xyre because you've gone pretty far down the wrong track with me. You keep trying to slot me into some scum team but where is the case? I keep asking you folks suspecting me to bring a case and no one seems to be able to do so. You say my response to Antny isn't good. Ok, why isn't it good. Give me concrete, objective reasoning why it isn't good. That should be pretty tough because my response to him is in fact, quite good.
Do you really think Antny is scum just because he built such a weak case? It's possible but I'd like to think people on this site are more skillful then that. I also don't like the flavor game angle, some of the case against WF was from flavor gaming and that ended up being a mislynch.
Oh, and also I find it amusing and perhaps apropos that imabusinessman is far more accommodating to Antny's requests for clarification (viz. 1983) than other people's. The responses read like they were made by entirely different posters.
If it makes you feel any better I'm far more tolerant of questions that I haven't already answered a multitude of times. Carry on.
@Tapiing: You've had plenty to say about Antny's case on you, but completely ignored EtR's reread. Why is that?
Etr's game consisted of lurking and relentlessly posting that catch ups are coming. I have zero confidence in Etr. If he's town he hasn't paid enough attention or kept involved for me to want to reply.
On a seerate note if GJ is scum we likely lose this game based on how weak the remaining town players are at scum hunting. Outside of Nacho I'm not very confident in the remaining rabble.
@Tapiing: You've had plenty to say about Antny's case on you, but completely ignored EtR's reread. Why is that?
Also you've spent an extraordinary amount of time casing me and asking me little questions. If I'm scum come at me DOTA. I'm sick of you tiptoeing through the shadows. Give us your reads. There are a couple of sharks circling below the surface chomping at the bit for Nacho to either die or for a wagon to erupt against me. But I can see your exposed dorsel fins. So get it out in the open DOTA. You refuse to live in a world where I am town, right?
Other than trying to flavor game an Iso game what else are you bringing forward?
I think the town's power roles are all and only the TMNT characters. Think about it: so far the only townies with abilities we've seen (discounting the two neutrals) have been Zionite (Raphael), Xyre (Leonardo), Nacho (Casey), April (Vaimes), and DoTA (Michaelangelo). That leaves two others - EtR (Ninjara) and Axelrod (Donatello). I suspect both of them are also townies with abilities of some type.
That immediately puts imabusinessman on the outs, because he's a claimed investigator who nonetheless isn't a TMNT character. Since I trust tomsloger's result, that makes imab a werewolf. Which actually makes sense, the more I think about it - that would make Necarg's vote of imab for claiming a sort of freakout-bus, which I've definitely seen scum do to their buddies before when the buddy does something weird (though I can't remember the specific game).
The remaining suspects then are Antny, GJ, TS, and Seppel. And I think I'd set Seppel out as most likely town of those four. Plus it would explain one other overlap in role names - GJ and TS, aka Mario and Luigi. I rather doubt at this point that those two are on different teams. Ergo, both mafia, and Antny is a werewolf.
How long have you been playing mafia Xyre?
When have you ever seen this sort of flavour gaming work?
Screw it, I'm jumping ship completely on finishing the Axel PBPA to do Antny instead.
Please finish the Axel pbpa, clearing because he’s got a TMNT name is simply wrong.
#208 is his first substantive post, and already I'm feeling bad about Antny. This is the same thing I pinpointed about Sir Chris - acknowledging your weird behavior isn't the same thing as not acting weirdly. This feels like an attempt to participate cloaked in "irony".
This wasn’t a substantive post. I never claimed it was, and in addition to looking up the word substantive, I strongly suggest you look irony up in a dictionary because people always look down on you when you get that word wrong.
This post is transparent is intended. I hadn’t read the game, but I saw there was a leading wagon and wanted to see how people would respond if I jumped on it. Occasionally you can catch newbscum with these sort of traps. I actually thought I got one with Rodemy.
The Rodemy vote is a fake trap, but as with most fake traps, there's just enough of a grain of mixed-up reason there that it could be a legitimate attempt at trapping scum, rather than a scum trying to trap a townie. So I'm just not gonna touch that.
The Rodemy vote was serious. It was the previous vote that was the trap. Look over Rodemy’s hesitation, you should see why I voted him.
Interesting that imab defends Antny (231) and vice-versa (288). Putting that in my pocket for the moment.
Can’t speak for imab. Can speak for the fact that I didn’t like the attacks on him.
#343 is ugly, especially the last part, in which Antny seems to essentially vote tomsloger for not looking up some mafiascum wiki pages.
He's claimed two shots which both teams are afraid of. Lynching any decent PR like this is essentially saving a scumteam a kill. Do I really need to tell you why helping scum is bad for town?
but at the very least, his claim means he's certainly town until/unless we reach a point where a 2-shot cop that can't even cop right half the time doesn't fit in the setup.
I think your time might be better spent looking for the mindset of players that we don't have strong reason to believe are town from their claim.
sure, if you believe him. i will admit i didnt look up either of those roles to find out what they actually did.
though i have to say, if seer is for wolves only, that could easily be a scum ability.
I have no reason not to believe him. And more importantly why the hell did you not look up those roles. It took me like 10 second to find them on the mafiascum wiki (so I guess maybe like a minute tops on google).
You were thorough in your case on imab and didn't even have time for that.
Now at least I can certain your talking crap. Back on the wagon I go.
vote Tomslogger
This is an extension on 308. Yes, part of my vote was based on the fact he didn’t look up the roles. The reason was he was apparently thorough casing imab because of imab claim. Yet, apparently he didn’t understand what the roles did. I can’t understand why a town player would get suspicious about a claim, and yet never wonder what said claim means. It’s not just that he didn’t google it, but he never asked in the thread, he never did anything. Did you not find that weird Xyre?
I'm not even going to try to parse #648.
Yes, I made a mistake with tags. It has happened to everyone. Why bring it up?
#787: "Ok, I'm jumping on the Xyre train." No context, no nothin'. And he put me in the middle of his Z/X/J response just one page prior, too. This is mercenary. And then in 825, he pivots right back to tom. So what was the point in voting for me? Just to be a warm body on the wagon? What townie purpose does that serve?
If lack of context was a concern you should have asked at the time :p. Most the time I leave this stuff blank to see who will question it. Just because I put Zion below you doesn’t mean that I can’t change my mind. I didn’t like one of your posts on the next page though I can’t remember which after a month and a half.
I don’t see why voting you was pointless, since if other people had jumped onto the wagon, there would have been a viable chance of lynching you. They did not, so there was not, so I shifted my vote.
(If it seems like there are a lot of gaps here, it's because (a) most of Antny's posts have been engaged with having tom lynched, the flaws in which are sort of non-indicative at this point, and (b) he disappears for big swaths of time.)
I don’t know why me engaging with Tom is irrelevent.
#1971: For someone who's consistently defended imab and his claimm, "Worst defence possible" is not what I expect to hear from Antny regarding imab's defense against me. This and the skepticism above it feel like a pre-bus - skepticism without follow-through or future reference.
Rather surprised Jobie went so hard for tom without considering the possibility they might have similar roles. Very weird. Also surprised the mafia killed Chris - suggests they actually thought he was town and were worried he'd figure them out. That doesn't sound like TappingStones, but that definitely sounds like Wildfire. And Zionite's still probably not a werewolf after all the ***** Chris put him through, so maybe a Zionite - Wildfire mafia team.
But first things first:
Vote imabusinessman
What team am I on and substantiate why. I'm looking forward to seeing this.
Worst defence possible.
I don’t see how this and the claim are related. What are you getting at here Xyre?
Oh, and also I find it amusing and perhaps apropos that imabusinessman is far more accommodating to Antny's requests for clarification (viz. 1983) than other people's. The responses read like they were made by entirely different posters.
I don’t see this, do you have some examples to demonstrate?
#1995-1999: "When did I say I didn't have a case on you, Tapping?" "Okay, let's hear the case." "I don't have a case."
I should probably have said, I have reasons for voting you, I don’t have a prepared case I can pull out my ass at a moments notice.
Turns into self-pitying in #2007. Who's kicking you, Antny? Are you really that bent out of shape by one person calling you on your BS?
Everyone was kicking me. Not just one person, not just in the game. I’m feel bad about it now, but at the time, when I was putting off other things just to get something down and have no one appreciate, it just makes you ask what’s the point. People ***** that I don’t make the effort. The tragic thing is I do. I put my time into this than I should, and I always be second to guys that can seemingly manage everything else with ease.
[qute]#2012 etc.: Gives reads without context, and insists his posts explain why. They don't. Gripes about the criticism at surprising length for someone who professes to not have enough time for the game proper.[/quote]
Well, I think they do. I probably should write up a comprehensive list at some point.
#2094: Not useful. Could be because Antny is simply lost, but it's especially weird that he pinpoints a full four scum suspects in 2012 and then can't really be asked to squeeze them into the scum slots or explain how Zionite fits into that picture whatsoever. (Also, for what it's worth, he never questioned that there might be four more scum left, or even make mention of Seppel's contrary concerns. That feels like a bit of a slip.)
Good news is there is still super fast internet connection here and my laptop works. Bad new is all my notes are in a Word document on my home PC so I get to start from scratch wooo.
Anyway, first thing is rereading Sir Chris/Hunt:
Hunt wagon doesn’t really look that useful based on the speed on of the wagon. It seemed everyone wanted to lynch him. I would expect the werewolves might be keener but I think if I was Hunt’s buddy I would probably have wanted to bus him after his weakass catchup as well.
Also don’t think Hunt’s posting is too useful, although I doubt he has a buddy in Tapping or Etr based on how strongly he went after them.
Depressingly Chris’ day 2 was spent either pushing the inevitable Tom wagon and arguing with Nacho. I already didn’t think Nacho was a likely buddy so there’s not much more there. It is interesting how quick he was to clear Zion in 1737.
So I have:
Hunt/???/???
for mafia.
And
Sir Chris/(2 of Tapping/Wildfire/Etr) for werewolves.
And I guess we'll see Wildfire's flip shortly. If he flips werewolf it would confirm my theory that Chris was putting strong townreads on his buddies and I might take another look at Chris/Zion at some point.
Next is the Tapping case, which I'll write between putting more Christmassy stuff, so assuming not too many other distractions I should have it in a couple of hours. Watch this space....
I’m sorry you don’t find this useful. I spent ages reading over Day 1 and Day 2, and this is what I got.
It’s not that I can’t be assed too squeeze them into scumslots, it’s that I didn’t want to. I didn’t find anything that linked Zion to either Chris or Hunt as a buddy. What’s the point in trying to force a guy into a slot without reasoning. My scumreads in 2012 were based on their behaviour and I’m not concerned (and still not) with trying to worry not much about which team they are in.
I don’t think we’re dealing with teams more than three at this point, giving the flipped neutrals we would have started off with a minority of players being town which implies three man teams.
#2104: His TS case isn't good. It just... isn't. Also, the language read which Seppel notes works on Antny as well, as mentioned above.
It’s stuff like this that makes me just want the towel in. It’s clear I put a lot into the case. Three people have commented on it (TS, Seppel, Xyre) have commented on it, and all I get is it’s bad. No attempt to tackle the case itself. If it’s bad, say why. Tell me what you don’t like. Show me where my language tells match with what’s in the case if that’s what you believe.
#2126: No explanation = bad sign, since this is yet another example of Antny protecting imab for unclear reasons.
You want an explanation, ask.
Since I anticipate you will, I’ll answer in advance.
Iabm is a bad vote today. He is already cleared of being mafia. The only remaining possibility is he is a werewolf. And thanks to you we have a method to test that. I hate the fact that Axel is voting a player that we should not be lynching today. Since it appears Nacho didn’t shoot him last night (and Axel couldn’t have known that when he voted Hunt), he isn’t clear but there’s a chance that he could have been at the time in additional to the fact we can clear him.
I think the town's power roles are all and only the TMNT characters. Think about it: so far the only townies with abilities we've seen (discounting the two neutrals) have been Zionite (Raphael), Xyre (Leonardo), Nacho (Casey), April (Vaimes), and DoTA (Michaelangelo). That leaves two others - EtR (Ninjara) and Axelrod (Donatello). I suspect both of them are also townies with abilities of some type.
That immediately puts imabusinessman on the outs, because he's a claimed investigator who nonetheless isn't a TMNT character. Since I trust tomsloger's result, that makes imab a werewolf. Which actually makes sense, the more I think about it - that would make Necarg's vote of imab for claiming a sort of freakout-bus, which I've definitely seen scum do to their buddies before when the buddy does something weird (though I can't remember the specific game).
The remaining suspects then are Antny, GJ, TS, and Seppel. And I think I'd set Seppel out as most likely town of those four. Plus it would explain one other overlap in role names - GJ and TS, aka Mario and Luigi. I rather doubt at this point that those two are on different teams. Ergo, both mafia, and Antny is a werewolf.
How long have you been playing mafia Xyre?
When have you ever seen this sort of flavour gaming work?
Screw it, I'm jumping ship completely on finishing the Axel PBPA to do Antny instead.
Please finish the Axel pbpa, clearing because he’s got a TMNT name is simply wrong.
#208 is his first substantive post, and already I'm feeling bad about Antny. This is the same thing I pinpointed about Sir Chris - acknowledging your weird behavior isn't the same thing as not acting weirdly. This feels like an attempt to participate cloaked in "irony".
This wasn’t a substantive post. I never claimed it was, and in addition to looking up the word substantive, I strongly suggest you look irony up in a dictionary because people always look down on you when you get that word wrong.
This post is transparent is intended. I hadn’t read the game, but I saw there was a leading wagon and wanted to see how people would respond if I jumped on it. Occasionally you can catch newbscum with these sort of traps. I actually thought I got one with Rodemy.
The Rodemy vote is a fake trap, but as with most fake traps, there's just enough of a grain of mixed-up reason there that it could be a legitimate attempt at trapping scum, rather than a scum trying to trap a townie. So I'm just not gonna touch that.
The Rodemy vote was serious. It was the previous vote that was the trap. Look over Rodemy’s hesitation, you should see why I voted him.
Interesting that imab defends Antny (231) and vice-versa (288). Putting that in my pocket for the moment.
Can’t speak for imab. Can speak for the fact that I didn’t like the attacks on him.
#343 is ugly, especially the last part, in which Antny seems to essentially vote tomsloger for not looking up some mafiascum wiki pages.
He's claimed two shots which both teams are afraid of. Lynching any decent PR like this is essentially saving a scumteam a kill. Do I really need to tell you why helping scum is bad for town?
but at the very least, his claim means he's certainly town until/unless we reach a point where a 2-shot cop that can't even cop right half the time doesn't fit in the setup.
I think your time might be better spent looking for the mindset of players that we don't have strong reason to believe are town from their claim.
sure, if you believe him. i will admit i didnt look up either of those roles to find out what they actually did.
though i have to say, if seer is for wolves only, that could easily be a scum ability.
I have no reason not to believe him. And more importantly why the hell did you not look up those roles. It took me like 10 second to find them on the mafiascum wiki (so I guess maybe like a minute tops on google).
You were thorough in your case on imab and didn't even have time for that.
Now at least I can certain your talking crap. Back on the wagon I go.
vote Tomslogger
This is an extension on 308. Yes, part of my vote was based on the fact he didn’t look up the roles. The reason was he was apparently thorough casing imab because of imab claim. Yet, apparently he didn’t understand what the roles did. I can’t understand why a town player would get suspicious about a claim, and yet never wonder what said claim means. It’s not just that he didn’t google it, but he never asked in the thread, he never did anything. Did you not find that weird Xyre?
I'm not even going to try to parse #648.
Yes, I made a mistake with tags. It has happened to everyone. Why bring it up?
#787: "Ok, I'm jumping on the Xyre train." No context, no nothin'. And he put me in the middle of his Z/X/J response just one page prior, too. This is mercenary. And then in 825, he pivots right back to tom. So what was the point in voting for me? Just to be a warm body on the wagon? What townie purpose does that serve?
If lack of context was a concern you should have asked at the time :p. Most the time I leave this stuff blank to see who will question it. Just because I put Zion below you doesn’t mean that I can’t change my mind. I didn’t like one of your posts on the next page though I can’t remember which after a month and a half.
I don’t see why voting you was pointless, since if other people had jumped onto the wagon, there would have been a viable chance of lynching you. They did not, so there was not, so I shifted my vote.
(If it seems like there are a lot of gaps here, it's because (a) most of Antny's posts have been engaged with having tom lynched, the flaws in which are sort of non-indicative at this point, and (b) he disappears for big swaths of time.)
I don’t know why me engaging with Tom is irrelevent.
#1971: For someone who's consistently defended imab and his claimm, "Worst defence possible" is not what I expect to hear from Antny regarding imab's defense against me. This and the skepticism above it feel like a pre-bus - skepticism without follow-through or future reference.
Rather surprised Jobie went so hard for tom without considering the possibility they might have similar roles. Very weird. Also surprised the mafia killed Chris - suggests they actually thought he was town and were worried he'd figure them out. That doesn't sound like TappingStones, but that definitely sounds like Wildfire. And Zionite's still probably not a werewolf after all the ***** Chris put him through, so maybe a Zionite - Wildfire mafia team.
But first things first:
Vote imabusinessman
What team am I on and substantiate why. I'm looking forward to seeing this.
Worst defence possible.
I don’t see how this and the claim are related. What are you getting at here Xyre?
Oh, and also I find it amusing and perhaps apropos that imabusinessman is far more accommodating to Antny's requests for clarification (viz. 1983) than other people's. The responses read like they were made by entirely different posters.
I don’t see this, do you have some examples to demonstrate?
#1995-1999: "When did I say I didn't have a case on you, Tapping?" "Okay, let's hear the case." "I don't have a case."
I should probably have said, I have reasons for voting you, I don’t have a prepared case I can pull out my ass at a moments notice.
Turns into self-pitying in #2007. Who's kicking you, Antny? Are you really that bent out of shape by one person calling you on your BS?
Everyone was kicking me. Not just one person, not just in the game. I’m feel bad about it now, but at the time, when I was putting off other things just to get something down and have no one appreciate, it just makes you ask what’s the point. People ***** that I don’t make the effort. The tragic thing is I do. I put my time into this than I should, and I always be second to guys that can seemingly manage everything else with ease.
[qute]#2012 etc.: Gives reads without context, and insists his posts explain why. They don't. Gripes about the criticism at surprising length for someone who professes to not have enough time for the game proper.
This is ironic given I DID go into detail why your case was bad. And for the love of God stop taking things so seriously. You say IAMB is a bad vote because we can WW check him. That was my plan for last night. I asked Nacho to do so. But DOTA, roleblocked him making it impossible. People are saying they don't like my plans and then the next day...after we mislynch town...wanting to go with my plan...and still saying I'm scum. This is a bizarre game.
This is ironic given I DID go into detail why your case was bad.
Not really. You ignored a majority of what I said and went on about how town you were.
And for the love of God stop taking things so seriously.
If I try not taking things seriously, people ***** that ruining game because I'm not taking things seriously enough. I try taking things seriously and people complain about that. I someone could tell how exactly I meant this to play this game so as not to ruin other peoples fun I'd do it.
This is ironic given I DID go into detail why your case was bad.
Not really. You ignored a majority of what I said and went on about how town you were.
And for the love of God stop taking things so seriously.
If I try not taking things seriously, people ***** that ruining game because I'm not taking things seriously enough. I try taking things seriously and people complain about that. I someone could tell how exactly I meant this to play this game so as not to ruin other peoples fun I'd do it.
I don't think you are ruining anyone's fun Antny. You aren't Tomsloger. I just want to wring your neck...gently and scream WHY CAN'T YOU SEE I'm TOWN!
Unless you are scum trying to play up this woe is me non-sense. Then I want to REALLY wring your neck.
I'm sorry Tapping. That last comment wasn't really directed at you, and isn't solely about this game, more about issues I've had throughout 2015. It's fairer to put a line under it and focus on game related stuff.
Tapping, let's give you a chance to convince me your town. I'd reckon we have four scum to find. Who are your top four scumreads right now in order of confidence of being scum?
@Tapiing: You've had plenty to say about Antny's case on you, but completely ignored EtR's reread. Why is that?
Also you've spent an extraordinary amount of time casing me and asking me little questions. If I'm scum come at me DOTA. I'm sick of you tiptoeing through the shadows. Give us your reads. There are a couple of sharks circling below the surface chomping at the bit for Nacho to either die or for a wagon to erupt against me. But I can see your exposed dorsel fins. So get it out in the open DOTA. You refuse to live in a world where I am town, right?
Other than trying to flavor game an Iso game what else are you bringing forward?
Build a case on you so you can dismiss it as nonsense as you have with everyone else? I don't think so. Two other players (EtR and Antny) are working on cases on you at the moment and as Antny said, it's not you they need to convince, it's the rest of the playerbase. No, I have better things to with my time. But trust me, when your time comes, and it will, my hands will be right there on the rope from which you swing.
@Xyre: Why the sudden change? I've had a few people telling me that flavour gaming doesn't work, although I am still holding onto a sliver of hope that I'm right about this.
Iabm is a bad vote today. He is already cleared of being mafia. The only remaining possibility is he is a werewolf. And thanks to you we have a method to test that. I hate the fact that Axel is voting a player that we should not be lynching today. Since it appears Nacho didn’t shoot him last night (and Axel couldn’t have known that when he voted Hunt), he isn’t clear but there’s a chance that he could have been at the time in additional to the fact we can clear him
Can someone remind me how IAMB has been "cleared" of being Mafia again? We're not talking about Tom's claimed action are we? Did Nacho claim it? Using one of his "gifts?" I tried to skim back through his posts and did not see it. In fact I couldn't find Nacho claiming his use of his first gift, the one from Zionite, which he definitely ought to do.
Hey, Iamb, since no one else feels like talking about it, why don't we! Tell me what was up with that whole "I'm a Werewolf, I'm telling you Mafia this so we don't Cross-kill" post yesterday!
I'll claim "Not Vanilla" right now, though I would be stunned if our Mod. created a set up where he distributed all the Town roles along a simple axis like that.
The whole game needs review, but the problem is the thread is too large and chunks of time are too short.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Okay, I'm happy to call Axel town now. And not (quite) because of the flavor scheme.
1) I went through two days of the game and found no posts that I could happily say were scum posts. Now, it's possible Axel gets much worse later on, but I rather doubt that, based on what I've seen. And if there's no smoking gun to be found, there's reason to believe he's honest. And
2) I think scum Axel would have jumped at my flavor scheme and the confirmation it suggested for him. He didn't.
The Antny PBPA demonstrated that he looks much much worse than I thought. So I think he should be the lynch today, also independent of the flavor scheme. I'm still holding out hope myself that Iso isn't that foolish. Our first step is to lynch scum today and then figure out how best to muster our dwindling resources to not get overrun.
(I'll respond to Antny & everyone else later; I only have enough time to write this post.0
I'm going to have to call you out here Xyre because you've gone pretty far down the wrong track with me. You keep trying to slot me into some scum team but where is the case? I keep asking you folks suspecting me to bring a case and no one seems to be able to do so. You say my response to Antny isn't good. Ok, why isn't it good. Give me concrete, objective reasoning why it isn't good. That should be pretty tough because my response to him is in fact, quite good.
Do you really think Antny is scum just because he built such a weak case? It's possible but I'd like to think people on this site are more skillful then that. I also don't like the flavor game angle, some of the case against WF was from flavor gaming and that ended up being a mislynch.
I'm not sure why you quoted this in reply to my PBPA of Antny instead of the flavor scheme. Other than my expressed suspicions of you in the past, which obviously will have to be rehabilitated given my new opinion as to your relationship with Sir Chris, and the flavor scheme, which even I've admitted still seems outside Iso's wheelhouse, I said almost nothing about you. Why the sudden urge to jump in and rehabilitate your standing? Why the nervousness? Why the urge to defend Antny?
I don't care about you right now, quite simply. As I mentioned, my goals for today are lynch scum and figure out what we should do with our abilities to throw the scum off. I'll deal with you tomorrow if we're both still standing. Until then, I just don't have enough mental energy to care.
As for Antny, it's the fact that he's done nothing of value all game, and many of his actual actions have a distinctive whiff of scummy motivation to them, that makes me think he's worthy of death. It's not just that his case on you was weak - again, it's not about you. It's about him, and specifically how little he's done to help the town, versus eagerly push it down rabbit holes.
Before you ask - any quote I excluded either isn't pertinent to this case or otherwise isn't aimed at you, so I edited them out. I'll come back to them later, if I'm alive, based on how your corpse falls.
How long have you been playing mafia Xyre?
When have you ever seen this sort of flavour gaming work?
Ten years.
And it almost never works. That's why I'm not putting a lot of faith in it. But having read a lot of Iso's setups, I also know it's not entirely beyond the pale for that kind of glitch to make it through.
Please finish the Axel pbpa, clearing because he’s got a TMNT name is simply wrong.
You're not my ninja turtle supervisor!
This wasn’t a substantive post. I never claimed it was, and in addition to looking up the word substantive, I strongly suggest you look irony up in a dictionary because people always look down on you when you get that word wrong.
This post is transparent is intended. I hadn’t read the game, but I saw there was a leading wagon and wanted to see how people would respond if I jumped on it. Occasionally you can catch newbscum with these sort of traps. I actually thought I got one with Rodemy.
Substantive = not in confirmation. And I know what the word irony means. Just because you've heard the joke about the Alanis Morrisette song doesn't mean you're a rhetorician. Here I'm using it in the sense of exaggerated joking fashion, adjacent to "facetious".
I don't believe this was a trap. You can't just call something a trap because someone bit at it. My vote on imabusinessman at the beginning of the game wasn't a trap, for instance, even though Necarg reacted to it like a scum and I thus "caught" him with it. No, I think you meant to participate without actually contributing, and wanted people to not look askance at it, so you dressed it up with affected silliness. That's not a trap; that's just scum filling space.
This is an extension on 308. Yes, part of my vote was based on the fact he didn’t look up the roles. The reason was he was apparently thorough casing imab because of imab claim. Yet, apparently he didn’t understand what the roles did. I can’t understand why a town player would get suspicious about a claim, and yet never wonder what said claim means. It’s not just that he didn’t google it, but he never asked in the thread, he never did anything. Did you not find that weird Xyre?
I didn't understand what imabusinessman meant at the time, either. Nor did Axel. And townies can fail to do research just as well as scum. Once again: it's not about what anyone did, but why they did it.
If lack of context was a concern you should have asked at the time :p. Most the time I leave this stuff blank to see who will question it. Just because I put Zion below you doesn’t mean that I can’t change my mind. I didn’t like one of your posts on the next page though I can’t remember which after a month and a half.
I don’t see why voting you was pointless, since if other people had jumped onto the wagon, there would have been a viable chance of lynching you. They did not, so there was not, so I shifted my vote.
Here's where the game ends. First, another reliance on the fake "it's a trap" defense. Second, a clear admission of voting to start wagons rather than achieve useful results. If he thought I was scum, he'd have actually tried to lynch me. But he is scum, and only cares if he can get support behind lynching townies.
Conclusion: Antny is superficial and looking out only for himself and his teammates. He's scum. Let's hang him.
I don’t know why me engaging with Tom is irrelevent.
Because you were far from the only person who was wrong about him, so it's almost impossible to set good intentions apart from bad.
I don’t see how this and the claim are related. What are you getting at here Xyre?
I already said it there - I think your criticism of imabusinessman's defense to my vote was an attempt to position yourself to bus him should he falter further. Up to this point, you'd had nary a bad word to say about him, but now you're pointing out flaws in his reasoning? What changed?
I should probably have said, I have reasons for voting you, I don’t have a prepared case I can pull out my ass at a moments notice.
Right, but you didn't say that. You immediately wilted under pressure. That interests me.
Everyone was kicking me. Not just one person, not just in the game. I’m feel bad about it now, but at the time, when I was putting off other things just to get something down and have no one appreciate, it just makes you ask what’s the point. People ***** that I don’t make the effort. The tragic thing is I do. I put my time into this than I should, and I always be second to guys that can seemingly manage everything else with ease.
Don't play for the glory, play for the game, bro. (Also, my point is that self-pity is a classic scum tell, as compared with anger from townies.)
Well, I think they do. I probably should write up a comprehensive list at some point.
Please do.
I’m sorry you don’t find this useful. I spent ages reading over Day 1 and Day 2, and this is what I got.
It’s not that I can’t be assed too squeeze them into scumslots, it’s that I didn’t want to. I didn’t find anything that linked Zion to either Chris or Hunt as a buddy. What’s the point in trying to force a guy into a slot without reasoning. My scumreads in 2012 were based on their behaviour and I’m not concerned (and still not) with trying to worry not much about which team they are in.
I don’t think we’re dealing with teams more than three at this point, giving the flipped neutrals we would have started off with a minority of players being town which implies three man teams.
But why not? Did you believe all three of Tapping, Wildfire, and EtR must have been scum? If so, shouldn't they be split into the two different teams? Doesn't that change how you read them in context? The fact that you didn't even think about making that effort demonstrates how useless your analysis was. For how worthless imabusinessman's "which team am I on?" strut was, he did have a point that this is a game where we need to hone in carefully on relationships because there's just less evidence available than usual. And the complete disconnect between your list of suspects and your guess as to team compositions suggests again to me that you care only about the bottom line of (mis)lynches rather than solidly deducing who the scum are.
And my point is that you immediately pinned down that there are three people on each team. Now, I think there are three on each team, too (based on the fact that 8/2/2 is the standard for 12 player games, and this is 50% more people), but I'm not positive about that. You didn't even think twice about it. That makes me think maybe you know one of the scum teams has three members.
Also, I didn't make mention of it, but it does seem apropos that you filled out the werewolf team but not the mafia team; it's almost as though you cared more about the comings-and-goings of the former than the latter, as if you were worried about what Sir Chris might suggest about you. That these are things you've thought a lot about.
It’s stuff like this that makes me just want the towel in. It’s clear I put a lot into the case. Three people have commented on it (TS, Seppel, Xyre) have commented on it, and all I get is it’s bad. No attempt to tackle the case itself. If it’s bad, say why. Tell me what you don’t like. Show me where my language tells match with what’s in the case if that’s what you believe.
I'm going to decline until after the game, mostly because it's just not worth the psychic energy. I don't really care whether you think it was a good or bad PBPA, I just care whether you're town or scum. I'm happy to give instructional feedback after the game, but bickering with you over what constitutes good or bad at this stage does nothing to advance my case on you but give me a headache.
Iabm is a bad vote today. He is already cleared of being mafia. The only remaining possibility is he is a werewolf. And thanks to you we have a method to test that. I hate the fact that Axel is voting a player that we should not be lynching today. Since it appears Nacho didn’t shoot him last night (and Axel couldn’t have known that when he voted Hunt), he isn’t clear but there’s a chance that he could have been at the time in additional to the fact we can clear him.
I agree imabusinessman is a poor choice for today. Because you're a good choice for today, and he's a good choice for tomorrow.
Also Tapping's repeated responses to Antny have solidified my scum read of him. I need to do a full reread to confirm (and get some context on his potential relationship with GJ), but at least that makes me feel like I'm not crazy. His latest posts read like he's just skimming through what everyone posts looking for his name so he can fiercely protect it. It's not townie behavior.
Before you ask - any quote I excluded either isn't pertinent to this case or otherwise isn't aimed at you, so I edited them out. I'll come back to them later, if I'm alive, based on how your corpse falls.
How long have you been playing mafia Xyre?
When have you ever seen this sort of flavour gaming work?
Ten years.
And it almost never works. That's why I'm not putting a lot of faith in it. But having read a lot of Iso's setups, I also know it's not entirely beyond the pale for that kind of glitch to make it through.[/quote]
With all due respect, you seem to be putting a lot of faith in it.
Please finish the Axel pbpa, clearing because he’s got a TMNT name is simply wrong.
You're not my ninja turtle supervisor!
I could be a ninja turtle supervisor if I wanted to.
This wasn’t a substantive post. I never claimed it was, and in addition to looking up the word substantive, I strongly suggest you look irony up in a dictionary because people always look down on you when you get that word wrong.
This post is transparent is intended. I hadn’t read the game, but I saw there was a leading wagon and wanted to see how people would respond if I jumped on it. Occasionally you can catch newbscum with these sort of traps. I actually thought I got one with Rodemy.
Substantive = not in confirmation. And I know what the word irony means. Just because you've heard the joke about the Alanis Morrisette song doesn't mean you're a rhetorician. Here I'm using it in the sense of exaggerated joking fashion, adjacent to "facetious".[/quote]
I don't get the reference, but assume none of this is actually important... good, moving on...
I don't believe this was a trap. You can't just call something a trap because someone bit at it. My vote on imabusinessman at the beginning of the game wasn't a trap, for instance, even though Necarg reacted to it like a scum and I thus "caught" him with it. No, I think you meant to participate without actually contributing, and wanted people to not look askance at it, so you dressed it up with affected silliness. That's not a trap; that's just scum filling space.
If I wanted to fill space why wouldn't I do so in a less suspicious fashion by doing just about anything else?
This is an extension on 308. Yes, part of my vote was based on the fact he didn’t look up the roles. The reason was he was apparently thorough casing imab because of imab claim. Yet, apparently he didn’t understand what the roles did. I can’t understand why a town player would get suspicious about a claim, and yet never wonder what said claim means. It’s not just that he didn’t google it, but he never asked in the thread, he never did anything. Did you not find that weird Xyre?
I didn't understand what imabusinessman meant at the time, either. Nor did Axel. And townies can fail to do research just as well as scum. Once again: it's not about what anyone did, but why they did it.
But the difference is what did you do. Tom put the way imab claimed as an integral part of his scumcase, yet he didn't spend the time trying to work out what the roles were. He should have done. It was the townie action to do. It took next to no time to find out on the internet. If I hadn't have been able to do that, it would have been easy to ask imab. The fact he didn't is absolutely something that should be considered when looking for scum. When building cases scum will make these sort of mistakes more than town because they are less interested in trying to actually figure things out and more interested in simply getting the lynch.
As for why you and Axel didn't bother finding out what the role does, I won't speculate. Failing to do research isn't a scumtell in itself. Failing to even try to research something on your top scumread as to what his claimed role actually does is scummy.
If lack of context was a concern you should have asked at the time :p. Most the time I leave this stuff blank to see who will question it. Just because I put Zion below you doesn’t mean that I can’t change my mind. I didn’t like one of your posts on the next page though I can’t remember which after a month and a half.
I don’t see why voting you was pointless, since if other people had jumped onto the wagon, there would have been a viable chance of lynching you. They did not, so there was not, so I shifted my vote.
Here's where the game ends. First, another reliance on the fake "it's a trap" defense. Second, a clear admission of voting to start wagons rather than achieve useful results. If he thought I was scum, he'd have actually tried to lynch me. But he is scum, and only cares if he can get support behind lynching townies.
I never said it was a trap. To the contrary it's actually seeing who is interested in questioning me because town rather than scum will be more interested in my reasons.
Second, it was Day 1. I gave up trying to catch scum on Day 1 years ago. It's far more important to get a lynch and analyse in subsequent days than producing hundreds of posts trying to get the perfect lynch. If I could get force every other player to my will this forum would never have a day 1 go over 500 posts, regardless of the amount of players (but that's another story and we're close to me moaning about the problems of mtgsalvation mafia again).
Analyse comes from flips. Without them we're just guessing and arguing. So no, I make no bones about lynching players Day 1 who happen to be town.
Finally, I certainly wasn't townreading you day 1, that came in subsequent days.
I don’t know why me engaging with Tom is irrelevent.
Because you were far from the only person who was wrong about him, so it's almost impossible to set good intentions apart from bad.
Fair enough, I'll concede he wasn't scum.
I don’t see how this and the claim are related. What are you getting at here Xyre?
I already said it there - I think your criticism of imabusinessman's defense to my vote was an attempt to position yourself to bus him should he falter further. Up to this point, you'd had nary a bad word to say about him, but now you're pointing out flaws in his reasoning? What changed?
Why does something have to have changed
Seriously, if we didn't point out suspicions simply because we haven't previous said something bad, this game would stall due to inertia.
I should probably have said, I have reasons for voting you, I don’t have a prepared case I can pull out my ass at a moments notice.
Right, but you didn't say that. You immediately wilted under pressure. That interests me.
Hindsight twenty-twenty I probably should have said it. I'll choose my words more carefully in the future I guess.
Everyone was kicking me. Not just one person, not just in the game. I’m feel bad about it now, but at the time, when I was putting off other things just to get something down and have no one appreciate, it just makes you ask what’s the point. People ***** that I don’t make the effort. The tragic thing is I do. I put my time into this than I should, and I always be second to guys that can seemingly manage everything else with ease.
Don't play for the glory, play for the game, bro. (Also, my point is that self-pity is a classic scum tell, as compared with anger from townies.)
I have never played for glory and I am not about to begin now.
Well, I think they do. I probably should write up a comprehensive list at some point.
Please do.
I will.
I’m sorry you don’t find this useful. I spent ages reading over Day 1 and Day 2, and this is what I got.
It’s not that I can’t be assed too squeeze them into scumslots, it’s that I didn’t want to. I didn’t find anything that linked Zion to either Chris or Hunt as a buddy. What’s the point in trying to force a guy into a slot without reasoning. My scumreads in 2012 were based on their behaviour and I’m not concerned (and still not) with trying to worry not much about which team they are in.
I don’t think we’re dealing with teams more than three at this point, giving the flipped neutrals we would have started off with a minority of players being town which implies three man teams.
But why not? Did you believe all three of Tapping, Wildfire, and EtR must have been scum? If so, shouldn't they be split into the two different teams?
No because simply because some one is scummy doesn't mean I have to peg them for a paticular team. I put these three with Chris based on interactions. Hunt gave me nothing based on interactions so I have no additional insight in who could be mafia.
Doesn't that change how you read them in context? The fact that you didn't even think about making that effort demonstrates how useless your analysis was.
How could I have known prior the analyse how little I would get out of it.
For how worthless imabusinessman's "which team am I on?" strut was, he did have a point that this is a game where we need to hone in carefully on relationships because there's just less evidence available than usual. And the complete disconnect between your list of suspects and your guess as to team compositions suggests again to me that you care only about the bottom line of (mis)lynches rather than solidly deducing who the scum are.
I'll say it again, I have no interest in trying to solve the game where two-thirds of the scum are out there.
And my point is that you immediately pinned down that there are three people on each team. Now, I think there are three on each team, too (based on the fact that 8/2/2 is the standard for 12 player games, and this is 50% more people), but I'm not positive about that. You didn't even think twice about it. That makes me think maybe you know one of the scum teams has three members.
Best guesses don't constitute inside information. I could add a disclaimed to every post explaining that this is an estimate rather than a fact. I could edit the above point and instead of two-thirds it's only a logical guess best upon my theory of the setup that it's two thirds. I don't feel that kind of beating around the bush should be necessary.
Also, I didn't make mention of it, but it does seem apropos that you filled out the werewolf team but not the mafia team; it's almost as though you cared more about the comings-and-goings of the former than the latter, as if you were worried about what Sir Chris might suggest about you. That these are things you've thought a lot about.
As I explained, Hunt didn't post enough for me to make any judgements on whose on his team. If you feel I missed something point it out.
I still don't believe that putting people into teams arbitrarily just so we say "look I solved the game" at this stage is useful.
It’s stuff like this that makes me just want the towel in. It’s clear I put a lot into the case. Three people have commented on it (TS, Seppel, Xyre) have commented on it, and all I get is it’s bad. No attempt to tackle the case itself. If it’s bad, say why. Tell me what you don’t like. Show me where my language tells match with what’s in the case if that’s what you believe.
I'm going to decline until after the game, mostly because it's just not worth the psychic energy. I don't really care whether you think it was a good or bad PBPA, I just care whether you're town or scum. I'm happy to give instructional feedback after the game, but bickering with you over what constitutes good or bad at this stage does nothing to advance my case on you but give me a headache.
No, I going to sit here and hammer you until you either do it or one of us is dead.
So, give me some details about why you think my case against Tapping Stones was bad?
Iabm is a bad vote today. He is already cleared of being mafia. The only remaining possibility is he is a werewolf. And thanks to you we have a method to test that. I hate the fact that Axel is voting a player that we should not be lynching today. Since it appears Nacho didn’t shoot him last night (and Axel couldn’t have known that when he voted Hunt), he isn’t clear but there’s a chance that he could have been at the time in additional to the fact we can clear him.
I agree imabusinessman is a poor choice for today. Because you're a good choice for today, and he's a good choice for tomorrow.
Wouldn't the best play be to shoot him tonight and then problem solved. If he's a werewolf he's dead. If he's not dead, he's town.
I won't be back up to full most likely until New Year's weekend or some place around there; I'll be making smaller contributions until then so I don't fall off the map entirely. Would like to say that I'd like to reanalyze the ***** out of my reads; it would be lovely to get a read on EtR based on EtR's play and not OceanBlack's (yes OB played townie but it's multiball and he was in the game thread for one, two days); Anty is seeming townier of late despite his logic being nonsense and I don't really understand where Xyre's confidence on that front comes from, I could lynch GJ or Seppel without a single tear escaping, and I'd really like to wipe out a team soon so the game can be played normally.
I'd like to claim last because my ability is so townie and claiming beforehand would be stupid. And before we massclaim I'd like to reread everyone.
And before I do that I'll say in advance that my ability is one-shot, and I chose Xyre night 2. The ability is still in effect, but ultimately pointless at this point in the game. I don't think that reveals anything.
Taking the role aside, none of his posts have rang any alarm bells with me. Someone who was faking that ability would not threaten to use his ability if he was faking. Most of his reads felt genuine, and then putting the role together, would make it impossible for his slot to be anything other than town. I really don't know what else to say on this one.
Xyre: Lean Town
Aside from being one of the first players to attack Necarg (which puts him bare minimum as strong non-werewolf) his stance in this game, and his role being apparently similar to Zionite's makes it incredibly unlikely for him to be town. The pattern of two roles for each scum side appears to be both him and Zio, and then Tom and Jobie. Any doubt about Zyre could likely be nullified by a mass claim, and his behavior this game feels town.
TappingStones (leaning town)
Day 1-2, I was having a hard time trying to read him as one way or the other. Him versus Tom had me seeing him as the less likely scum candidate between the two, and most of his posts, I found it easy to try:
Quote from TS »
@Necarg-Why don't you like GJ's plan? Why are you telling us that you don't have any reads? Did someone ask you for reads? I looked back and couldn't find anything.
One of his earlier interactions with Necarg/Chris. This feels genuine in the fact that he is racing with questions. The emotion I gather from that is curiosity, which reads genuine, in particular due to the fact that Necarg looked like he was balking rather hard.
DoTArchon (neutral/lean scum)
His first few posts, I am having a hard time getting a read on. RVS votes Jobie (null), his first real post is aimed at Oceanblack (EtR):
Quote from Oceanblack »
Yeah, I mind elaborating. It is giving me some very interesting reactions - like yours and Axelrod's. I'm a little more interested in hearing Axelrod's fixation with it over yours for a couple of reasons.
I dont like that bolded part. What reactions are you referring to? Wildfire is still discussing it, but mainly with you, and Axelrod has moved on to other topics. I would like for you to elaborate on what it is you've seen that I'm apparently missing.
Decent explanation, but his next post is directed at Nacho saying "His role only gets him so far". This is still in the infantcy of the game. Some players don't have more than a post or two at this juncture. I could see frustration towards Nacho perhaps mid game if he were trying to coast, but this feels far too early, and almost as if it were an anglar to maybe have Nacho as a potential mis-lynch.
Quote from Dota »
Bad posts? If the point of the game is to ask questions and cast suspicion, then how are my posts bad if that's what I'm trying to do? Maybe it would be better if I'm lynched. All I seem to be doing is distracting you from finding actual scum. I saw your comment of your vote should be considered to be on me, but why not just vote and get it over with.
Response to Seppel. Lots of early game defeatism, when there really isn't a ton of votes/pressure aimed at Dota. This is post 325, and a lot of self-consciousness in this. There are a few other posts I found that just seemed meh. Quick joint adventure on xyre, during the little bit of dead time between Jobie asking for a Tom claim, and Tom actually claiming neutral. Tom flipping neutral makes me less sure about this particular interaction, but here:
Crap! I JK'd Nachos last night, I suspected he might be the NK target. Completely forgot abput the gifts from you and Zionite.
This is the only pause I am having with Dota, and am not sure how much I believe this. No one else has claimed a protective role, short of maybe the gifts, but we will see if the massclaim happens.
IMAB (strong scum)
Case to come.
Axelrod (null)
Re-read required.
Seppel (null)
Re-read required/claim required.
I am pro-massclaim at this stage. Had dota stayed quiet, I might have voted against, just off the bat that none of the protective roles have been revealed. I can only assume that Nacho stay alive as long as he has. Would prefer to go last.
I'm happy with an Xyre lynch (he's just played abysmally if he's town) so with ten years experience he's most-likely scum.
I'm happy with an Etr lynch. I've wanted this since day one. Can we finally get some traction? I will be making my case soon enough.
Seppel and GJ could both be scum. I'm going to try and see who logically fits into teams at this point.
@Nacho-You never answered my question about Xyre's gift. I asked a question in relation to Zionite's gift. Is Xyre bad town or scum?
He's already said, repeatedly, I'm town. I've already claimed, and he's confirmed my claim. Get over yourself, matey. And then stick your neck through this rope here.
@ Nacho: Setting aside our disagreement about EtR and Antny, which team do you think is easier to eliminate fastest? I'm still rather confident in my Antny + imab/TS + GJ read, especially after the above two posts by the latter. Should we just compromise on GJ?
The one thing that worries me is that I'd much rather get the werewolves down to 1 today rather than the mafia, and I highly doubt "Mario" and "Luigi" are werewolves. Whereas if we can hit a werewolf today, either you or the person I gave a gift to last night (not telling who) could try to hit the other one. Whereas lynching a mafioso doesn't accomplish anything unless we lynch his buddy tomorrow.
I'm happy with an Xyre lynch (he's just played abysmally if he's town) so with ten years experience he's most-likely scum.
I'm happy with an Etr lynch. I've wanted this since day one. Can we finally get some traction? I will be making my case soon enough.
Seppel and GJ could both be scum. I'm going to try and see who logically fits into teams at this point.
@Nacho-You never answered my question about Xyre's gift. I asked a question in relation to Zionite's gift. Is Xyre bad town or scum?
He's already said, repeatedly, I'm town. I've already claimed, and he's confirmed my claim. Get over yourself, matey. And then stick your neck through this rope here.
Where did he confirm your claim? By saying he accepted your gift? That doesn't confirm you're town. I want Nacho to say something like "Based on the gift, Xyre's play and his alignment I am x%confident he is town". That's what I'm looking for. For you to try and keep him from townclearing you is bizarre. I'm literally saying "Nacho, can you confirm Xyre is town so i can try and help solve this game?" and you say "Why does he have to help you confirm I'm town?" You're trying to create division when town should be coming together and lynching scum. NOT trying to cast doubt on everyone and hedge for the next day.
Thank you for extending the deadline an additional two days. The full moons here were absolutely beautiful and I spent all night admiring them. Also can you extend the next night phase to 168 hrs? I don't think night phase is taking long enough.
@Imab - The pic is clearly a cleaning product, what does that have to do with my claim?
You would be surprised. Scum tend to twist words around to create motivations that could fit in, but don't make sense. I somehow convinced the entire town on Star Trek that the towniest player was scum because he just decided to bus his entire mafia team. It worked. I don't know Antny, but do you think he is intentionally misrepping you, or do you think he is doing it purposefully?
My confidence took a rather large hit after the invitational. Aside from that, I have never been super confidant in my reads, so I tend to use words like seems, likely, probably, ect.
What gambit were you referring to from yesterday? You said you thought I was scum, but because I pulled some gambit in the invitational, you were reading me as town. I have no idea what gambit you are referring to...
We'll see about that.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
It's an expression of my frustration with how detrimental your action was.
Or, put it another way: if at the end of the game, we lost because IMAB is scum, I'll chalk that up to "something screwy went wrong" and feel less bad than if I get outfoxed by Axel or GJ or you.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
DoTArchon, please do not jail me tonight.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
An Ax(elrod) to Grind
As I mentioned when I originally added him to my scum list, Axel has made a lot of posts that asked questions that don't seem to be aimed at eliciting any real results. A lot of these could go either way, like his first post (#32), but I feel like over time, more and more of them start to feel less like the posts of someone trying to understand what is going on than someone trying to pretend to be lost and looking for guidance. Axelrod is a smart guy; by now, I'd expect him to have the game mostly pinned down. And while it's true that this game has thrown a lot of good players for a loop (see: Seppel), exhibiting this level of befuddlement throughout is strange.
The other thing that stands out, time and again, from Axelrod is the use of hedging language. Yes, yes, I know, this is a soft tell, but again, to the sheer degree it's used, I feel like it reflects someone who deliberately wants to avoid being tied down. See, e.g., #140, which reads in its entirety "I may feel about the same" (in reply to a quote by Seppel calling OceanBlack town). Now, again, there's a plausible explanation for this opinion - Axel had just gotten into a bickering match over OceanBlack blowing Jobie's RVS out of proportion. But the particular phrasing bothers me; it feels overly calculated, like Axel recognized OceanBlack would be a safe person to call likely town but couldn't bring himself to say it straight.
Another typical post is #254, in which Axel spots some weird language used by TappingStones, says it gives him the "heebie-jeebies", but doesn't vote on it; he just says "yuck". Up to this point, the only person he's voted was me (for voting imab based on his cop claim). True, he does vote TS after a full read in 297. And again, maybe this is just how Axel operates. But I don't like it.
And the case itself is really mediocre - half the things Axel points to he admits himself are non-indicative, and most of the rest are based on poor reasoning, rather than scummy behavior per se. Also, note that some of the things Axel calls TS out for ("given no strong opinions", "'looking into' them without stating any actual opinions") can fit on the other foot as well. Pretty much the entire post reads like someone who wanted to backfill a position he already held, rather than actually reaching the conclusion based on all these posts he claims to have gone back and read. Or, to put it another way - it reads like Axel judged each post individually, and found each to be largely non-indicative of itself, but then decided that the totality of them nonetheless made TS scum. I don't like it. (Yes, I know Zionite and I both said we liked it. We were wrong. Go team.)
Buckle up, kids; it ain't getting any less bumpy from here.
More hypocritical complaining about insubstantial accusations in #469, as compared with #432. In the latter, Axel deployed a bunch of rote judgments about a series of posts. But when Jobie gives "strikes" against Rodemy and Tapping in #347, it's suspicious? Both give the same feeling of someone just reading through, taking notes along the way, and then trying to distill them down to a post. This post (469) also feels like an opinion seeking evidence, rather than the other way around, with its dismissive (not in a condescending way, but in a checklist way - "this is gone, this is gone, this is gone") tone.
Also, for what it's worse, his hard push on myself, Jobie, and Zionite (see #647 and 650) looks a lot worse now that we know that all three of us are/were non-scum. Again, I'll admit I thought both Jobie and Zionite were scum, myself. But narrowing it down to three people and pushing hard for one of them to be lynched feels like a tactic a scum would employ if he knew either way he'd benefit.
#668: Uh... italics tell? That's not really a thing. But aside from that (which, really - why is the word "barn" italicized here, except to draw undue attention to it?) this case is pretty weak - agreeing with someone and then thinking that person could be malicious two hundred posts later, without context on the in-between or whether those two positions are actually inconsistent, is pretty weak logic. Also, why case only the posts about himself (Axel)? Why not a full PBPA? Could it be that Axel doesn't actually care what Zionite says about anyone else?
Axelrod and I had very similar opinions about the Huntzilla lynch, i.e. that it was going too fast for the amount of actual evidence at our fingertips. The logic still sounds reasonable to me. Plus I doubt that Axel is mafia, because the kill targets chosen (specifically tordeck and Sir Chris) don't really make sense to me based. I think the person/people who killed Chris in particular are newer players who killed him based principally on his reputation. That doesn't sound like Axel, who was highly skeptical of Chris's purported reputation in Day 1; if Axel's scum, he's very likely a werewolf who was hedging his bets preparing to bus Sir Chris Day 1. (See #1276, e.g.) Which makes me think his reaction to the Huntzilla lynch could go either way, like his opinion itself.
Also, apropos of nothing, #1369 (by GJ) looks pretty ugly. Maybe a SC-GJ-Axel team? Which would suggest a Hunt-Antny-TS mafia... which actually might make sense. Anyway, I'm getting off track. I'll do a GJ case next.
INTERMISSION
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Axel, you said your name was Donatello, right? You wouldn't by chance happen to not be vanilla, would you?
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Axelrod - Donatello()
DoTArchon - Michaelangelo(Jailkeeper)
EtR - Ninjara()
Gentleman Johnny - Luigi()
Huntz - Cousin Vinny(Mafia Vanilla)
Imabusinessman - Vladimir()
Jobie - Van Helsing(Neutral Exterminator)
Nachomamma8 - Casey(Governor)
Seppel -
Sir Chris -Catalina (Werewolf Vanilla)
TappingStones - Mario()
Tomsloger - Ezzio(Neutral Assassin)
Tordeck - Benito(Town Vanilla)
Vaimes - April(Town Last Resort)
Wildfire393 - Lacramioara(Town Vanilla)
Xyre - Leonardo (Silversmith)
Zionite - Raphael(Town Blacksmith)
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I think the town's power roles are all and only the TMNT characters. Think about it: so far the only townies with abilities we've seen (discounting the two neutrals) have been Zionite (Raphael), Xyre (Leonardo), Nacho (Casey), April (Vaimes), and DoTA (Michaelangelo). That leaves two others - EtR (Ninjara) and Axelrod (Donatello). I suspect both of them are also townies with abilities of some type.
That immediately puts imabusinessman on the outs, because he's a claimed investigator who nonetheless isn't a TMNT character. Since I trust tomsloger's result, that makes imab a werewolf. Which actually makes sense, the more I think about it - that would make Necarg's vote of imab for claiming a sort of freakout-bus, which I've definitely seen scum do to their buddies before when the buddy does something weird (though I can't remember the specific game).
The remaining suspects then are Antny, GJ, TS, and Seppel. And I think I'd set Seppel out as most likely town of those four. Plus it would explain one other overlap in role names - GJ and TS, aka Mario and Luigi. I rather doubt at this point that those two are on different teams. Ergo, both mafia, and Antny is a werewolf.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
#208 is his first substantive post, and already I'm feeling bad about Antny. This is the same thing I pinpointed about Sir Chris - acknowledging your weird behavior isn't the same thing as not acting weirdly. This feels like an attempt to participate cloaked in "irony".
The Rodemy vote is a fake trap, but as with most fake traps, there's just enough of a grain of mixed-up reason there that it could be a legitimate attempt at trapping scum, rather than a scum trying to trap a townie. So I'm just not gonna touch that.
Interesting that imab defends Antny (231) and vice-versa (288). Putting that in my pocket for the moment.
#343 is ugly, especially the last part, in which Antny seems to essentially vote tomsloger for not looking up some mafiascum wiki pages.
I'm not even going to try to parse #648.
#787: "Ok, I'm jumping on the Xyre train." No context, no nothin'. And he put me in the middle of his Z/X/J response just one page prior, too. This is mercenary. And then in 825, he pivots right back to tom. So what was the point in voting for me? Just to be a warm body on the wagon? What townie purpose does that serve?
(If it seems like there are a lot of gaps here, it's because (a) most of Antny's posts have been engaged with having tom lynched, the flaws in which are sort of non-indicative at this point, and (b) he disappears for big swaths of time.)
#1971: For someone who's consistently defended imab and his claimm, "Worst defence possible" is not what I expect to hear from Antny regarding imab's defense against me. This and the skepticism above it feel like a pre-bus - skepticism without follow-through or future reference.
Oh, and also I find it amusing and perhaps apropos that imabusinessman is far more accommodating to Antny's requests for clarification (viz. 1983) than other people's. The responses read like they were made by entirely different posters.
#1995-1999: "When did I say I didn't have a case on you, Tapping?" "Okay, let's hear the case." "I don't have a case."
Turns into self-pitying in #2007. Who's kicking you, Antny? Are you really that bent out of shape by one person calling you on your BS?
#2012 etc.: Gives reads without context, and insists his posts explain why. They don't. Gripes about the criticism at surprising length for someone who professes to not have enough time for the game proper.
#2094: Not useful. Could be because Antny is simply lost, but it's especially weird that he pinpoints a full four scum suspects in 2012 and then can't really be asked to squeeze them into the scum slots or explain how Zionite fits into that picture whatsoever. (Also, for what it's worth, he never questioned that there might be four more scum left, or even make mention of Seppel's contrary concerns. That feels like a bit of a slip.)
#2104: His TS case isn't good. It just... isn't. Also, the language read which Seppel notes works on Antny as well, as mentioned above.
For what it's worth, TS's response to Antny's case also isn't good.
#2126: No explanation = bad sign, since this is yet another example of Antny protecting imab for unclear reasons.
Prepare the airlock. Vote Antny223
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I'm going to have to call you out here Xyre because you've gone pretty far down the wrong track with me. You keep trying to slot me into some scum team but where is the case? I keep asking you folks suspecting me to bring a case and no one seems to be able to do so. You say my response to Antny isn't good. Ok, why isn't it good. Give me concrete, objective reasoning why it isn't good. That should be pretty tough because my response to him is in fact, quite good.
Do you really think Antny is scum just because he built such a weak case? It's possible but I'd like to think people on this site are more skillful then that. I also don't like the flavor game angle, some of the case against WF was from flavor gaming and that ended up being a mislynch.
If it makes you feel any better I'm far more tolerant of questions that I haven't already answered a multitude of times. Carry on.
Etr's game consisted of lurking and relentlessly posting that catch ups are coming. I have zero confidence in Etr. If he's town he hasn't paid enough attention or kept involved for me to want to reply.
On a seerate note if GJ is scum we likely lose this game based on how weak the remaining town players are at scum hunting. Outside of Nacho I'm not very confident in the remaining rabble.
Also you've spent an extraordinary amount of time casing me and asking me little questions. If I'm scum come at me DOTA. I'm sick of you tiptoeing through the shadows. Give us your reads. There are a couple of sharks circling below the surface chomping at the bit for Nacho to either die or for a wagon to erupt against me. But I can see your exposed dorsel fins. So get it out in the open DOTA. You refuse to live in a world where I am town, right?
Other than trying to flavor game an Iso game what else are you bringing forward?
How long have you been playing mafia Xyre?
When have you ever seen this sort of flavour gaming work?
Please finish the Axel pbpa, clearing because he’s got a TMNT name is simply wrong.
Let’s find some of these posts…
This wasn’t a substantive post. I never claimed it was, and in addition to looking up the word substantive, I strongly suggest you look irony up in a dictionary because people always look down on you when you get that word wrong.
This post is transparent is intended. I hadn’t read the game, but I saw there was a leading wagon and wanted to see how people would respond if I jumped on it. Occasionally you can catch newbscum with these sort of traps. I actually thought I got one with Rodemy.
The Rodemy vote was serious. It was the previous vote that was the trap. Look over Rodemy’s hesitation, you should see why I voted him.
Can’t speak for imab. Can speak for the fact that I didn’t like the attacks on him.
Finding the quote.
This is an extension on 308. Yes, part of my vote was based on the fact he didn’t look up the roles. The reason was he was apparently thorough casing imab because of imab claim. Yet, apparently he didn’t understand what the roles did. I can’t understand why a town player would get suspicious about a claim, and yet never wonder what said claim means. It’s not just that he didn’t google it, but he never asked in the thread, he never did anything. Did you not find that weird Xyre?
Yes, I made a mistake with tags. It has happened to everyone. Why bring it up?
If lack of context was a concern you should have asked at the time :p. Most the time I leave this stuff blank to see who will question it. Just because I put Zion below you doesn’t mean that I can’t change my mind. I didn’t like one of your posts on the next page though I can’t remember which after a month and a half.
I don’t see why voting you was pointless, since if other people had jumped onto the wagon, there would have been a viable chance of lynching you. They did not, so there was not, so I shifted my vote.
I don’t know why me engaging with Tom is irrelevent.
Let me find the bit you’re referring to:
I don’t see how this and the claim are related. What are you getting at here Xyre?
I don’t see this, do you have some examples to demonstrate?
I should probably have said, I have reasons for voting you, I don’t have a prepared case I can pull out my ass at a moments notice.
Everyone was kicking me. Not just one person, not just in the game. I’m feel bad about it now, but at the time, when I was putting off other things just to get something down and have no one appreciate, it just makes you ask what’s the point. People ***** that I don’t make the effort. The tragic thing is I do. I put my time into this than I should, and I always be second to guys that can seemingly manage everything else with ease.
[qute]#2012 etc.: Gives reads without context, and insists his posts explain why. They don't. Gripes about the criticism at surprising length for someone who professes to not have enough time for the game proper.[/quote]
Well, I think they do. I probably should write up a comprehensive list at some point.
Again, let’s grab the post:
I’m sorry you don’t find this useful. I spent ages reading over Day 1 and Day 2, and this is what I got.
It’s not that I can’t be assed too squeeze them into scumslots, it’s that I didn’t want to. I didn’t find anything that linked Zion to either Chris or Hunt as a buddy. What’s the point in trying to force a guy into a slot without reasoning. My scumreads in 2012 were based on their behaviour and I’m not concerned (and still not) with trying to worry not much about which team they are in.
I don’t think we’re dealing with teams more than three at this point, giving the flipped neutrals we would have started off with a minority of players being town which implies three man teams.
It’s stuff like this that makes me just want the towel in. It’s clear I put a lot into the case. Three people have commented on it (TS, Seppel, Xyre) have commented on it, and all I get is it’s bad. No attempt to tackle the case itself. If it’s bad, say why. Tell me what you don’t like. Show me where my language tells match with what’s in the case if that’s what you believe.
You want an explanation, ask.
Since I anticipate you will, I’ll answer in advance.
Iabm is a bad vote today. He is already cleared of being mafia. The only remaining possibility is he is a werewolf. And thanks to you we have a method to test that. I hate the fact that Axel is voting a player that we should not be lynching today. Since it appears Nacho didn’t shoot him last night (and Axel couldn’t have known that when he voted Hunt), he isn’t clear but there’s a chance that he could have been at the time in additional to the fact we can clear him.
This is ironic given I DID go into detail why your case was bad. And for the love of God stop taking things so seriously. You say IAMB is a bad vote because we can WW check him. That was my plan for last night. I asked Nacho to do so. But DOTA, roleblocked him making it impossible. People are saying they don't like my plans and then the next day...after we mislynch town...wanting to go with my plan...and still saying I'm scum. This is a bizarre game.
Not really. You ignored a majority of what I said and went on about how town you were.
If I try not taking things seriously, people ***** that ruining game because I'm not taking things seriously enough. I try taking things seriously and people complain about that. I someone could tell how exactly I meant this to play this game so as not to ruin other peoples fun I'd do it.
I don't think you are ruining anyone's fun Antny. You aren't Tomsloger. I just want to wring your neck...gently and scream WHY CAN'T YOU SEE I'm TOWN!
Unless you are scum trying to play up this woe is me non-sense. Then I want to REALLY wring your neck.
===================================================================================================
Ok, line drawn.
Tapping, let's give you a chance to convince me your town. I'd reckon we have four scum to find. Who are your top four scumreads right now in order of confidence of being scum?
@Xyre: Why the sudden change? I've had a few people telling me that flavour gaming doesn't work, although I am still holding onto a sliver of hope that I'm right about this.
Can someone remind me how IAMB has been "cleared" of being Mafia again? We're not talking about Tom's claimed action are we? Did Nacho claim it? Using one of his "gifts?" I tried to skim back through his posts and did not see it. In fact I couldn't find Nacho claiming his use of his first gift, the one from Zionite, which he definitely ought to do.
Hey, Iamb, since no one else feels like talking about it, why don't we! Tell me what was up with that whole "I'm a Werewolf, I'm telling you Mafia this so we don't Cross-kill" post yesterday!
I'll claim "Not Vanilla" right now, though I would be stunned if our Mod. created a set up where he distributed all the Town roles along a simple axis like that.
The whole game needs review, but the problem is the thread is too large and chunks of time are too short.
1) I went through two days of the game and found no posts that I could happily say were scum posts. Now, it's possible Axel gets much worse later on, but I rather doubt that, based on what I've seen. And if there's no smoking gun to be found, there's reason to believe he's honest. And
2) I think scum Axel would have jumped at my flavor scheme and the confirmation it suggested for him. He didn't.
The Antny PBPA demonstrated that he looks much much worse than I thought. So I think he should be the lynch today, also independent of the flavor scheme. I'm still holding out hope myself that Iso isn't that foolish. Our first step is to lynch scum today and then figure out how best to muster our dwindling resources to not get overrun.
(I'll respond to Antny & everyone else later; I only have enough time to write this post.0
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I don't care about you right now, quite simply. As I mentioned, my goals for today are lynch scum and figure out what we should do with our abilities to throw the scum off. I'll deal with you tomorrow if we're both still standing. Until then, I just don't have enough mental energy to care.
As for Antny, it's the fact that he's done nothing of value all game, and many of his actual actions have a distinctive whiff of scummy motivation to them, that makes me think he's worthy of death. It's not just that his case on you was weak - again, it's not about you. It's about him, and specifically how little he's done to help the town, versus eagerly push it down rabbit holes.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Ten years.
And it almost never works. That's why I'm not putting a lot of faith in it. But having read a lot of Iso's setups, I also know it's not entirely beyond the pale for that kind of glitch to make it through.
You're not my ninja turtle supervisor!
Substantive = not in confirmation. And I know what the word irony means. Just because you've heard the joke about the Alanis Morrisette song doesn't mean you're a rhetorician. Here I'm using it in the sense of exaggerated joking fashion, adjacent to "facetious".
I don't believe this was a trap. You can't just call something a trap because someone bit at it. My vote on imabusinessman at the beginning of the game wasn't a trap, for instance, even though Necarg reacted to it like a scum and I thus "caught" him with it. No, I think you meant to participate without actually contributing, and wanted people to not look askance at it, so you dressed it up with affected silliness. That's not a trap; that's just scum filling space.
I didn't understand what imabusinessman meant at the time, either. Nor did Axel. And townies can fail to do research just as well as scum. Once again: it's not about what anyone did, but why they did it. Here's where the game ends. First, another reliance on the fake "it's a trap" defense. Second, a clear admission of voting to start wagons rather than achieve useful results. If he thought I was scum, he'd have actually tried to lynch me. But he is scum, and only cares if he can get support behind lynching townies.
Conclusion: Antny is superficial and looking out only for himself and his teammates. He's scum. Let's hang him.
Because you were far from the only person who was wrong about him, so it's almost impossible to set good intentions apart from bad. I already said it there - I think your criticism of imabusinessman's defense to my vote was an attempt to position yourself to bus him should he falter further. Up to this point, you'd had nary a bad word to say about him, but now you're pointing out flaws in his reasoning? What changed?
Right, but you didn't say that. You immediately wilted under pressure. That interests me.
Don't play for the glory, play for the game, bro. (Also, my point is that self-pity is a classic scum tell, as compared with anger from townies.)
Please do.
But why not? Did you believe all three of Tapping, Wildfire, and EtR must have been scum? If so, shouldn't they be split into the two different teams? Doesn't that change how you read them in context? The fact that you didn't even think about making that effort demonstrates how useless your analysis was. For how worthless imabusinessman's "which team am I on?" strut was, he did have a point that this is a game where we need to hone in carefully on relationships because there's just less evidence available than usual. And the complete disconnect between your list of suspects and your guess as to team compositions suggests again to me that you care only about the bottom line of (mis)lynches rather than solidly deducing who the scum are.
And my point is that you immediately pinned down that there are three people on each team. Now, I think there are three on each team, too (based on the fact that 8/2/2 is the standard for 12 player games, and this is 50% more people), but I'm not positive about that. You didn't even think twice about it. That makes me think maybe you know one of the scum teams has three members.
Also, I didn't make mention of it, but it does seem apropos that you filled out the werewolf team but not the mafia team; it's almost as though you cared more about the comings-and-goings of the former than the latter, as if you were worried about what Sir Chris might suggest about you. That these are things you've thought a lot about.
I'm going to decline until after the game, mostly because it's just not worth the psychic energy. I don't really care whether you think it was a good or bad PBPA, I just care whether you're town or scum. I'm happy to give instructional feedback after the game, but bickering with you over what constitutes good or bad at this stage does nothing to advance my case on you but give me a headache.
I agree imabusinessman is a poor choice for today. Because you're a good choice for today, and he's a good choice for tomorrow.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Ten years.
And it almost never works. That's why I'm not putting a lot of faith in it. But having read a lot of Iso's setups, I also know it's not entirely beyond the pale for that kind of glitch to make it through.[/quote]
With all due respect, you seem to be putting a lot of faith in it.
I could be a ninja turtle supervisor if I wanted to.
Substantive = not in confirmation. And I know what the word irony means. Just because you've heard the joke about the Alanis Morrisette song doesn't mean you're a rhetorician. Here I'm using it in the sense of exaggerated joking fashion, adjacent to "facetious".[/quote]
I don't get the reference, but assume none of this is actually important... good, moving on...
If I wanted to fill space why wouldn't I do so in a less suspicious fashion by doing just about anything else?
But the difference is what did you do. Tom put the way imab claimed as an integral part of his scumcase, yet he didn't spend the time trying to work out what the roles were. He should have done. It was the townie action to do. It took next to no time to find out on the internet. If I hadn't have been able to do that, it would have been easy to ask imab. The fact he didn't is absolutely something that should be considered when looking for scum. When building cases scum will make these sort of mistakes more than town because they are less interested in trying to actually figure things out and more interested in simply getting the lynch.
As for why you and Axel didn't bother finding out what the role does, I won't speculate. Failing to do research isn't a scumtell in itself. Failing to even try to research something on your top scumread as to what his claimed role actually does is scummy.
I never said it was a trap. To the contrary it's actually seeing who is interested in questioning me because town rather than scum will be more interested in my reasons.
Second, it was Day 1. I gave up trying to catch scum on Day 1 years ago. It's far more important to get a lynch and analyse in subsequent days than producing hundreds of posts trying to get the perfect lynch. If I could get force every other player to my will this forum would never have a day 1 go over 500 posts, regardless of the amount of players (but that's another story and we're close to me moaning about the problems of mtgsalvation mafia again).
Analyse comes from flips. Without them we're just guessing and arguing. So no, I make no bones about lynching players Day 1 who happen to be town.
Finally, I certainly wasn't townreading you day 1, that came in subsequent days.
Fair enough, I'll concede he wasn't scum.
Why does something have to have changed
Seriously, if we didn't point out suspicions simply because we haven't previous said something bad, this game would stall due to inertia.
Hindsight twenty-twenty I probably should have said it. I'll choose my words more carefully in the future I guess.
I have never played for glory and I am not about to begin now.
I will.
No because simply because some one is scummy doesn't mean I have to peg them for a paticular team. I put these three with Chris based on interactions. Hunt gave me nothing based on interactions so I have no additional insight in who could be mafia.
How could I have known prior the analyse how little I would get out of it.
I'll say it again, I have no interest in trying to solve the game where two-thirds of the scum are out there.
Best guesses don't constitute inside information. I could add a disclaimed to every post explaining that this is an estimate rather than a fact. I could edit the above point and instead of two-thirds it's only a logical guess best upon my theory of the setup that it's two thirds. I don't feel that kind of beating around the bush should be necessary.
As I explained, Hunt didn't post enough for me to make any judgements on whose on his team. If you feel I missed something point it out.
I still don't believe that putting people into teams arbitrarily just so we say "look I solved the game" at this stage is useful.
No, I going to sit here and hammer you until you either do it or one of us is dead.
So, give me some details about why you think my case against Tapping Stones was bad?
Wouldn't the best play be to shoot him tonight and then problem solved. If he's a werewolf he's dead. If he's not dead, he's town.
2. Wish we could lynch G.J or Xyre today.
3. Somebody throw a chair to spice up this party.
4. Mafia and werewolf teams are dumb don't forget it.
I won't be back up to full most likely until New Year's weekend or some place around there; I'll be making smaller contributions until then so I don't fall off the map entirely. Would like to say that I'd like to reanalyze the ***** out of my reads; it would be lovely to get a read on EtR based on EtR's play and not OceanBlack's (yes OB played townie but it's multiball and he was in the game thread for one, two days); Anty is seeming townier of late despite his logic being nonsense and I don't really understand where Xyre's confidence on that front comes from, I could lynch GJ or Seppel without a single tear escaping, and I'd really like to wipe out a team soon so the game can be played normally.
And before I do that I'll say in advance that my ability is one-shot, and I chose Xyre night 2. The ability is still in effect, but ultimately pointless at this point in the game. I don't think that reveals anything.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I'm happy with an Etr lynch. I've wanted this since day one. Can we finally get some traction? I will be making my case soon enough.
Seppel and GJ could both be scum. I'm going to try and see who logically fits into teams at this point.
@Nacho-You never answered my question about Xyre's gift. I asked a question in relation to Zionite's gift. Is Xyre bad town or scum?
Nacho: Obvious Town
Taking the role aside, none of his posts have rang any alarm bells with me. Someone who was faking that ability would not threaten to use his ability if he was faking. Most of his reads felt genuine, and then putting the role together, would make it impossible for his slot to be anything other than town. I really don't know what else to say on this one.
Xyre: Lean Town
Aside from being one of the first players to attack Necarg (which puts him bare minimum as strong non-werewolf) his stance in this game, and his role being apparently similar to Zionite's makes it incredibly unlikely for him to be town. The pattern of two roles for each scum side appears to be both him and Zio, and then Tom and Jobie. Any doubt about Zyre could likely be nullified by a mass claim, and his behavior this game feels town.
TappingStones (leaning town)
Day 1-2, I was having a hard time trying to read him as one way or the other. Him versus Tom had me seeing him as the less likely scum candidate between the two, and most of his posts, I found it easy to try:
One of his earlier interactions with Necarg/Chris. This feels genuine in the fact that he is racing with questions. The emotion I gather from that is curiosity, which reads genuine, in particular due to the fact that Necarg looked like he was balking rather hard.
DoTArchon (neutral/lean scum)
His first few posts, I am having a hard time getting a read on. RVS votes Jobie (null), his first real post is aimed at Oceanblack (EtR):
Decent explanation, but his next post is directed at Nacho saying "His role only gets him so far". This is still in the infantcy of the game. Some players don't have more than a post or two at this juncture. I could see frustration towards Nacho perhaps mid game if he were trying to coast, but this feels far too early, and almost as if it were an anglar to maybe have Nacho as a potential mis-lynch.
Response to Seppel. Lots of early game defeatism, when there really isn't a ton of votes/pressure aimed at Dota. This is post 325, and a lot of self-consciousness in this. There are a few other posts I found that just seemed meh. Quick joint adventure on xyre, during the little bit of dead time between Jobie asking for a Tom claim, and Tom actually claiming neutral. Tom flipping neutral makes me less sure about this particular interaction, but here:
This is the only pause I am having with Dota, and am not sure how much I believe this. No one else has claimed a protective role, short of maybe the gifts, but we will see if the massclaim happens.
IMAB (strong scum)
Case to come.
Axelrod (null)
Re-read required.
Seppel (null)
Re-read required/claim required.
I am pro-massclaim at this stage. Had dota stayed quiet, I might have voted against, just off the bat that none of the protective roles have been revealed. I can only assume that Nacho stay alive as long as he has. Would prefer to go last.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
The one thing that worries me is that I'd much rather get the werewolves down to 1 today rather than the mafia, and I highly doubt "Mario" and "Luigi" are werewolves. Whereas if we can hit a werewolf today, either you or the person I gave a gift to last night (not telling who) could try to hit the other one. Whereas lynching a mafioso doesn't accomplish anything unless we lynch his buddy tomorrow.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Where did he confirm your claim? By saying he accepted your gift? That doesn't confirm you're town. I want Nacho to say something like "Based on the gift, Xyre's play and his alignment I am x%confident he is town". That's what I'm looking for. For you to try and keep him from townclearing you is bizarre. I'm literally saying "Nacho, can you confirm Xyre is town so i can try and help solve this game?" and you say "Why does he have to help you confirm I'm town?" You're trying to create division when town should be coming together and lynching scum. NOT trying to cast doubt on everyone and hedge for the next day.
Case incoming as time allows. Then everyone can decide for themselves if I'm right or wrong.