DCIII a bit, Cyan still hasn't said anything remotely substantial about anything, and you pretty much made things up and then backed off of them super fast so I mean, I guess.
Mind you my vote isn't on anyone who is voting me so hey. Plus I think scum tend to be pretty cowardly (see my biggest problem out of anyone who talked about me was the way DCIII nudged it)
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I'm back on a cruiseship, so activity will be low. I skimmed quickly. Wheat is probably town. I don't get the scumvibes from GJ that I always get when he's town and that worries me. I'll try to get a more thorough read this evening.
I'm getting Seppel and Chris vibes. Chris mostly because he seems weird in the context of Seppel, like how his first response to Proph gives general thoughts on Seppel but avoids giving any current game commentary and his second response feels like it's trying pretty hard not to take a stance on Seppel and both times he's kind of deflecting back to Proph to get his thoughts on Seppel.
Seppel is a player I find very confusing. I am wary of Seppel, and I am unsure if I can independently read Seppel at this point. I am very confused why in the hell you think I should be taking stances on people page 1, DCIII. I choose you.
##vote: DCIII
Seriously that is just a garbage generic statement of the day to say something. "You know, Chris isn't TAKING STANCE HERE" like...really? What? There was nothing from Seppel there that falls within his town or scum meta afaik. I am trying to branch out reads but I have absolutely no idea how you can genuinely believe I should have a hard stance on Seppel based on what he has posted so far. It's absurd, and its empty words from you and I hate it.
I'm not sure why I thought this was so golden. It's definitely a townie reaction, but it's fakable, at least by Chris. See, Chris, instead of giving in to pressure and trying to come up with some read on me, says that it's impossible to come up with a read on me based on the few posts I've made so far. There's just pure indignation in regards to having enough time to scumhunt me. He even points out that I haven't done anything that aligns with either my town or scum meta, which is a neat thing to add -- it shows that he's thinking about me subjectively (townie thinking) instead of trying to find reasons that will fit whether or not it's a good time to push a lynch on me (scum thinking).
So yeah. Chris is a good faker, but I don't think he was faking.
Oh I remembered something from earlier - Cythare, your theory doesn't hold with regards to my "a few" phrasing. I had some questions in mind and then typed the rest of my thing and then I went back and added another one, which shows that no, I did not have everything premeditated.
There's no way to verify how you typed it up, but it's plausible. Hrm.
The answers I was looking for aren't as simple as "A+B=C", as the range of what could be answered varies vastly based on playstyle, alignment, posting style, experience, mood, etc., etc., etc.. It's not something I can type out and say, "I was looking for X, and Cythare did not respond with X, therefore he is scum." It's more to the effect of, "Cythare responded in a manner that I would expect scumCythare to respond to, because his reaction in line Q was weird, line Z felt hollow, blahblahblah etc."
I missed this before - it was a formula error. He set up a baseline of how much he wanted to ask, then figured out what he would want to ask, then didn't go back to check that the syntax matches. I find this happens notably more as scum, since town would just ask the questions as they came to mind rather than start with a framework.
Can you give me examples on when this would happen as scum? Your first couple of sentences just read super bizarre to me since I lack Linguistics 101 knowledge.
It's a stronger tell when something is missing, i.e.: "I have these four things for you..." and then there's only three. It's a lack of attention to detail when circling back because you decide how much you want to ask and then figure out what to ask (because you're not actually scumhunting). I feel it is applicable to tacking on as well, but will admit the argument is not as strong.[/quote]
2. I do. #59 is self-centric (although this is less telling for Iso than it would be for most). He pushes that his wagon on me is good with little context for a bit, is vague about it when he looks to explain.
How is self-centricity a scumtell? I'm reading #59 that he's interested in getting more out of Cyan.
I don't think it necessarily generally is. I think it's easier for Iso to talk about himself than others, because he's able to shrug off the pressure "because Iso".
I'm not sure why people think GJ's reaction to me is town. I feel like his self-vote was a bluff, and that he's counting on that to push his wagon away.
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@Chris - Here's the main issue I'm having with you right now. Other than your back and forth with GJ, I don't feel like you believe a lot of your stance on players.
There was certainly nothing tentative about my stance on you. I said that I didn't like your responses to Proph or your comment to Az about Iso, and then I didn't like your reaction to me and Cyan. You're right that I've come at you harder in other games, but it feels like you're ignoring context. I've no doubt you've seen this approach of mine as well, especially early in the game, and you've said yourself that I've made mistakes reading you in the past. It feels like you're taking an aspect of my game and are trying to apply it universally but it really doesn't make sense here. I didn't like the stuff you did early, I called it out. I didn't like your reaction, I called it out. That's tentative how? I did the same thing with Seppel - but your assertion that my approach was tentative was specific to you. I wasn't sold you were scum but I saw things I didn't like. Did you think I'd think you would just ignore me or that we wouldn't have a discussion about it?
So there's that. You say that Cyan is offering nothing substantial. His lines are short, but he's not parsing words and I think his reasons are pretty clear. It would be one thing to say that he's not engaging with you more, but to say there's no substance to what he's saying feels like a discredit.
But then there's Proph, who I can't imagine you thinking is suspicious at this point. #195 is absolutely a Town Proph post. No doubt. He unvoted a popular wagon that he started. If he was scum and GJ was Town, I can't see him shifting pressure off as momentum was building when he got in on the ground floor. He would have a Town you, from your perspective, attacking a Town player hard that he started suspicion on. If he was scum and GJ was scum, he wouldn't have the confidence to draw that kind of scrutiny by unvoting his buddy's wagon as it was building steam.
You're good enough at assessing players to realize that but, even if I assume that you missed that, you certainly don't think scum Proph is shifting his vote to Town you and going toe to toe with Town you. You're too cocky to think that. You know Proph respects your game. You've played with Proph. And to suggest that he's doing it to defend scum GJ means you'd have to think that scum Proph would unvote his buddy that he started a wagon on, and decide to try to lynch a Town you instead, who is hammering on his buddy.
I cannot believe that would be Town Chris's honest analysis of that situation.
Unvote: Vote: Sir Chris
This isn't an "I don't think Chris would behave like this as town" point, this is "I know Chris's analysis is better than that."
But, for funsies, another "I don't think town Chris would behave like this" point is your solitary "Nope." to Azrael, who you seemed excited to play with to start the game and whose reputation you say precedes him. He says you made a scum post with no reasoning behind it and rather than engaging why he thinks that, you just shut it down with the nope. I think Town Chris would want to know why Az thought that and would want to flesh it out both to better solidify his read there and to have the back and forth with a player he was excited to play with. I don't like that Az didn't care about that either and is now calling you "silly Town." Queue the "I vary my play" and "you don't know how I'd act as Town" responses. Which is fine, because that point is ancillary to the analysis point, which I think is golden.
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Other thoughts:
I have pretty confident Town reads on Proph, Iso, and Rhand and Town leans on Cyan, ZDS, and Wheat
Cythare's most recent two posts I like the least of his posts but I'd still probably err town.
Seppel's early play still skeeves me out. His more recent play seems more standard generally with his bouncing to Cythare and GJ and jumping off GJ when he did, but he's still got some self-aware lines that I'm not used to seeing from him, like the one ZDS called out and him pointing out that his wall is small for today which means that he thinks people are expecting big walls out of him regularly and it's abnormal for him to feel the need to say things like that about his own play.
I still don't really care for GJ. His self vote and responses after feel like show. He's making the leap from, "if I flip Town that naturally implicates Iso, why wouldn't Chris naturally suspect him" when it's like he's ignoring the possibility that someone else could think Iso could just be wrong. His opinions just feel like a stretch.
Az does feel like he's overdoing it with his playfulness. I didn't feel great about his move to ZDS (on the surface appears like a pressure vote to address lurking but my general thought is that Az probably wouldn't think ZDS would respond poorly to a vote like that anyway), I liked his Chris vote (in that I like that he was voting Chris) but then his "we're scum buddies, wink, wink" shenanigans are creepy and unnecessary and I'd like him to explain his reasoning for that vote. I also don't see a reason to hold his Iso and Proph reads close to his vest early, didn't agree with those reads to begin with, and don't remember him doing that in Gatecrash. His comment about my reads being looking for something that wasn't there was vague as was his follow up explanation. He didn't apply it to them specifically and it definitely didn't apply to the Seppel read because that read was literally the opposite, it was me seeing things that I didn't expect to see from Seppel as opposed to looking for things that weren't there.
And I really don't like his vote on Proph now after #195. That last post of his feels so scummy. Firstly, that doesn't seem like a Proph play, secondly, it's pretty common to think scum are pushing an early wagon if you don't agree with it, thirdly, Proph unvoting the wagon he started and then saying there are scum on it doesn't seem like scum Proph, either. And then the general "I don't understand" why this scum read player is being read as scum line doesn't feel genuine at all, especially considering how much discussion there's been around the point and in the context of him thinking the people on the wagon are all silly Town.
DCIII a bit, Cyan still hasn't said anything remotely substantial about anything, and you pretty much made things up and then backed off of them super fast so I mean, I guess.
How did I "make things up and backed off of them"?
Quote from Rhand »
Wheat is probably town
Why? I'm interested on how he came to the exact opposite conclusion I did on the GJ post.
Quote from Seppel »
Arguments like this have been proven to be garbage. In a recent game, we even had 6 townies on a D1 wagon before it dissolved.
One game doesn't mean that an entire method of analysis is invalidated. And that's not even my only point against Chris!
Quote from Az »
I feel strongly that the GJ wagon is infested with silly townies and Proph is scum trying to get us to chase them.
Why did you 180 on your Chris read?
Quote from Iso »
I'm not sure why people think GJ's reaction to me is town. I feel like his self-vote was a bluff, and that he's counting on that to push his wagon away.
What do you think of his response with the self vote? Do you think that's a bluff?
I'm not really understanding why you think GJ is scum? It's obvious that he wants for you to commit on a read of him, and I don't see how you can read #154 as anything other than townie exasperation.
---
I agree with basically all of DCIII's post re: Chris.
Cythare response is fine but I'm still not convinced of his read on Iso.
But then there's Proph, who I can't imagine you thinking is suspicious at this point. #195 is absolutely a Town Proph post. No doubt. He unvoted a popular wagon that he started. If he was scum and GJ was Town, I can't see him shifting pressure off as momentum was building when he got in on the ground floor. He would have a Town you, from your perspective, attacking a Town player hard that he started suspicion on. If he was scum and GJ was scum, he wouldn't have the confidence to draw that kind of scrutiny by unvoting his buddy's wagon as it was building steam.
Actually if you read my 203 I think it becomes pretty clear that I don't think proph is scummy, I was just frustrated. I don't think anyone who had voted me up until that point is likely to be scum except maybe cyan who you say has shown reasons but that's a blatant lie. Completely blatant. I like being the center of attention when I can read through things and get to the heart of the matter. I don't like being confused about things. Several, several posts have left me confused to a person's thinking and doesn't help me game solve. Although I am glad you have such a deep, abiding faith in someone's town game that you can see one post and go "lol town." Perhaps I just don't have the experience with proph, but I thought he was a good player, and good players generally can't be town cleared from one post.
Like welcome to Cyan:
Vote Sir Chris
That Cythare vote just seemed so bad to me.
Man, look how testy and bent out of shape about this you are. It's not a very pro-town reaction.
@Seppel: I find SC's explanation of 'Cythare inspired me to participate in RVS' to be complete bull*****. He never participates in RVS, and is vocally opposed to it. This feels like a poor attempt at a cover.
Welcome to the things Cyan has said about me. Look, I get attacked pretty much literally every game, it's just the nature of the beast. That's fine, it's great in fact. But now I would like you to read this, and explain to me what Cyan is thinking. Because here's the thing: for whatever god forsaken reason, either as town or scum, Cyan has decided to go with "Chris' obvious joke RVS vote is something greater and he, as scum, made some huge mistake and when questioned about it right away made up BS in an ill-fated attempt to cover up SOMETHING."
Like ???
I don't like being thought of as a poor scum player. I don't like feeling insulted. It's insulting! I'm literally better than that! You talk about MY analysis, and you say THIS passes muster. That is pathetic analysis on YOUR part.
Also to my recollection in the past whenever you have suspected me it has always come with a vote. I can't recall a time where you didn't get in my face immediately. That is what bothered me, but now your really bad analysis of me... actually I don't know, you do seem to do this song and dance pretty often <_<. I like to think when people misrep me horrifically they are scum but you do it so often as town... I guess at best that's a null tell. Huh.
But, for funsies, another "I don't think town Chris would behave like this" point is your solitary "Nope." to Azrael, who you seemed excited to play with to start the game and whose reputation you say precedes him. He says you made a scum post with no reasoning behind it and rather than engaging why he thinks that, you just shut it down with the nope. I think Town Chris would want to know why Az thought that and would want to flesh it out both to better solidify his read there and to have the back and forth with a player he was excited to play with. I don't like that Az didn't care about that either and is now calling you "silly Town." Queue the "I vary my play" and "you don't know how I'd act as Town" responses. Which is fine, because that point is ancillary to the analysis point, which I think is golden.
I am not going to say either of the quoted things, you are just wrong. I wanted to see how Az would react to being shut down, and he reacted well. He could have been like you and made a big deal out of nothing, but he tilted his head to the side and thought about it. I like Az now.
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I'm not sure why people think GJ's reaction to me is town. I feel like his self-vote was a bluff, and that he's counting on that to push his wagon away.
The "U MAD BRO?" comment was absurdly confident. Do you really think he thinks he's indestructible? He's still a mystery to me, and if there's no additional mysteries in the interim, I can help elucidate it.
I don't like being thought of as a poor scum player. I don't like feeling insulted. It's insulting! I'm literally better than that! You talk about MY analysis, and you say THIS passes muster. That is pathetic analysis on YOUR part.
This tickles my CFTWR gland, even though it isn't.
I'm not sure why people think GJ's reaction to me is town. I feel like his self-vote was a bluff, and that he's counting on that to push his wagon away.
The "U MAD BRO?" comment was absurdly confident. Do you really think he thinks he's indestructible? He's still a mystery to me, and if there's no additional mysteries in the interim, I can help elucidate it.
I'm not sure why I thought this was so golden. It's definitely a townie reaction, but it's fakable, at least by Chris. See, Chris, instead of giving in to pressure and trying to come up with some read on me, says that it's impossible to come up with a read on me based on the few posts I've made so far. There's just pure indignation in regards to having enough time to scumhunt me. He even points out that I haven't done anything that aligns with either my town or scum meta, which is a neat thing to add -- it shows that he's thinking about me subjectively (townie thinking) instead of trying to find reasons that will fit whether or not it's a good time to push a lynch on me (scum thinking).
So yeah. Chris is a good faker, but I don't think he was faking.
This is good insight from Seppel, leaning town. Have yet to see a scum Seppel able to parse his read on me this well.
The GJ vs Iso fight has more to do with these two's common past than with this game. Well at least it can explain the Gentleman's reluctance to look elsewhere and ridiculous tunnel vision. But seriously GJ, sacrificing yourself to try to get another player lynched? Unless you flip day-cop or something, it isn't going to work. I kind of want you to be scum just because that is the only scenario where your self vote is a somewhat smart play.
This is why I am still voting GJ. Usually self votes make me jump off super quick but like... we're all good players. That is so reactionary that I have trouble believing it is genuine. It's like it's so town it rolls back over into being scummy because of the circumstances.
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Hi Proph, I think you wil find the answer to your question not once, but twice in this thread. Verbatim.
Hi Seppel, I think that GJ thinks very highly of his scum game and very poorly of his town game. Indestructible? Probably not. Pretty damn good? I think so!
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@Chris - Here's the main issue I'm having with you right now. Other than your back and forth with GJ, I don't feel like you believe a lot of your stance on players.
There was certainly nothing tentative about my stance on you. I said that I didn't like your responses to Proph or your comment to Az about Iso, and then I didn't like your reaction to me and Cyan. You're right that I've come at you harder in other games, but it feels like you're ignoring context. I've no doubt you've seen this approach of mine as well, especially early in the game, and you've said yourself that I've made mistakes reading you in the past. It feels like you're taking an aspect of my game and are trying to apply it universally but it really doesn't make sense here. I didn't like the stuff you did early, I called it out. I didn't like your reaction, I called it out. That's tentative how? I did the same thing with Seppel - but your assertion that my approach was tentative was specific to you. I wasn't sold you were scum but I saw things I didn't like. Did you think I'd think you would just ignore me or that we wouldn't have a discussion about it?
So there's that. You say that Cyan is offering nothing substantial. His lines are short, but he's not parsing words and I think his reasons are pretty clear. It would be one thing to say that he's not engaging with you more, but to say there's no substance to what he's saying feels like a discredit.
But then there's Proph, who I can't imagine you thinking is suspicious at this point. #195 is absolutely a Town Proph post. No doubt. He unvoted a popular wagon that he started. If he was scum and GJ was Town, I can't see him shifting pressure off as momentum was building when he got in on the ground floor. He would have a Town you, from your perspective, attacking a Town player hard that he started suspicion on. If he was scum and GJ was scum, he wouldn't have the confidence to draw that kind of scrutiny by unvoting his buddy's wagon as it was building steam.
You're good enough at assessing players to realize that but, even if I assume that you missed that, you certainly don't think scum Proph is shifting his vote to Town you and going toe to toe with Town you. You're too cocky to think that. You know Proph respects your game. You've played with Proph. And to suggest that he's doing it to defend scum GJ means you'd have to think that scum Proph would unvote his buddy that he started a wagon on, and decide to try to lynch a Town you instead, who is hammering on his buddy.
I cannot believe that would be Town Chris's honest analysis of that situation.
Unvote: Vote: Sir Chris
This isn't an "I don't think Chris would behave like this as town" point, this is "I know Chris's analysis is better than that."
But, for funsies, another "I don't think town Chris would behave like this" point is your solitary "Nope." to Azrael, who you seemed excited to play with to start the game and whose reputation you say precedes him. He says you made a scum post with no reasoning behind it and rather than engaging why he thinks that, you just shut it down with the nope. I think Town Chris would want to know why Az thought that and would want to flesh it out both to better solidify his read there and to have the back and forth with a player he was excited to play with. I don't like that Az didn't care about that either and is now calling you "silly Town." Queue the "I vary my play" and "you don't know how I'd act as Town" responses. Which is fine, because that point is ancillary to the analysis point, which I think is golden.
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Other thoughts:
I have pretty confident Town reads on Proph, Iso, and Rhand and Town leans on Cyan, ZDS, and Wheat
Cythare's most recent two posts I like the least of his posts but I'd still probably err town.
Seppel's early play still skeeves me out. His more recent play seems more standard generally with his bouncing to Cythare and GJ and jumping off GJ when he did, but he's still got some self-aware lines that I'm not used to seeing from him, like the one ZDS called out and him pointing out that his wall is small for today which means that he thinks people are expecting big walls out of him regularly and it's abnormal for him to feel the need to say things like that about his own play.
I still don't really care for GJ. His self vote and responses after feel like show. He's making the leap from, "if I flip Town that naturally implicates Iso, why wouldn't Chris naturally suspect him" when it's like he's ignoring the possibility that someone else could think Iso could just be wrong. His opinions just feel like a stretch.
Az does feel like he's overdoing it with his playfulness. I didn't feel great about his move to ZDS (on the surface appears like a pressure vote to address lurking but my general thought is that Az probably wouldn't think ZDS would respond poorly to a vote like that anyway), I liked his Chris vote (in that I like that he was voting Chris) but then his "we're scum buddies, wink, wink" shenanigans are creepy and unnecessary and I'd like him to explain his reasoning for that vote. I also don't see a reason to hold his Iso and Proph reads close to his vest early, didn't agree with those reads to begin with, and don't remember him doing that in Gatecrash. His comment about my reads being looking for something that wasn't there was vague as was his follow up explanation. He didn't apply it to them specifically and it definitely didn't apply to the Seppel read because that read was literally the opposite, it was me seeing things that I didn't expect to see from Seppel as opposed to looking for things that weren't there.
And I really don't like his vote on Proph now after #195. That last post of his feels so scummy. Firstly, that doesn't seem like a Proph play, secondly, it's pretty common to think scum are pushing an early wagon if you don't agree with it, thirdly, Proph unvoting the wagon he started and then saying there are scum on it doesn't seem like scum Proph, either. And then the general "I don't understand" why this scum read player is being read as scum line doesn't feel genuine at all, especially considering how much discussion there's been around the point and in the context of him thinking the people on the wagon are all silly Town.
Strong scum reads on Chris and Az.
Hmm. Something about this post bugs me, I need to figure out what exactly.
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@Wheat: Why does the last post seal the deal that GJ is scum to you?
That's incidentally the post that made me 180 on my read of him.
Because Johnny doesn't actually believe it. He thinks that the bluff will work because only town are that confident. Therefore, he just has to act confident.
Hi Seppel, I think that GJ thinks very highly of his scum game and very poorly of his town game. Indestructible? Probably not. Pretty damn good? I think so!
You asked me why I am geeked to play with Az. Because he's someone who has been talked about as a really good player. Playing with good players is what makes mafia great.
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Anyway, I'm town in a game full of great players. I have some new insights on my gameplay as of late, and feel like I've nailed the scumteam early in an (arguably) all-star game - a game that more people in our playerbase voted for me to be in than anyone else. What's not to be excited about?
If I were scum, I probably wouldn't be nearly as excited.
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2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
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2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You asked me why I am geeked to play with Az. Because he's someone who has been talked about as a really good player. Playing with good players is what makes mafia great.
Anyway, I'm town in a game full of great players. I have some new insights on my gameplay as of late, and feel like I've nailed the scumteam early in an (arguably) all-star game - a game that more people in our playerbase voted for me to be in than anyone else. What's not to be excited about?
If I were scum, I probably wouldn't be nearly as excited.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Let's do a little contest. We all name the scumteam now and whoever is closest to the truth gets post-game bragging rights.
I'll start: Azrael, Cythare, Proph.
I started re-reading and noticed a trend of lackluster posts from Prophylaxis. He apparently has a lot of trouble understanding how other players get their scum-reads from (and it's effectively difficult to understand where a scum-read comes from when you are scum yourself), and I don't see how any of the questions he is asking or the remarks he is making will lead him to scum (which is the more worrying part).
Getting minor townvibes from both Iso and Seppel. Seppel's "I hope this doesn't turn into another D1 earlygame where 4 of us do the talking, another 4 post once, and another 4 don't even show up" feels genuine, and his responses to Iso lacks self awareness. I'm fine with his response re: True Name.
We are talking about a comment about activity, generic answers to generic questions, and a re-telling of his play in a past game. How do you get any sort of read from these things?
Also, his Chris vote in #195 is low-effort. A "gotcha" vote? Really?
I don't get the scumvibes from GJ that I always get when he's town and that worries me. I'll try to get a more thorough read this evening.
I would like to know what games you felt scummy vibes from me, where I happened to be town. Immediately.
The Gentleman Johnny way of saying, "U MAD BRO?"
It strikes me as curious that Iso, who is super hard reading me scum, would get that pissy over me missing a post or two, or not quite understanding his position. If he truly thought I was scum, I am clearly just screwing with him. I think this is a slip on his part, but not perhaps a scum slip.
Quote from Azreal »
I feel strongly that the GJ wagon is infested with silly townies and Proph is scum trying to get us to chase them.
I'm with you, Seppel.
vote Proph
Don't understand why anyone is reading GJ's attitude as scummy.
Since you seem to be reading me as town and Proph as scum, what motivation would a scum proph have to get off the wagon, when he probably would have had 0 fault on my lynch?
Quote from Iso »
I'm not sure why people think GJ's reaction to me is town. I feel like his self-vote was a bluff, and that he's counting on that to push his wagon away.
I don't bluff. We both know that, but I can't remember what game we were in with this similar situation...
Quote from DCIII »
I still don't really care for GJ. His self vote and responses after feel like show. He's making the leap from, "if I flip Town that naturally implicates Iso, why wouldn't Chris naturally suspect him" when it's like he's ignoring the possibility that someone else could think Iso could just be wrong. His opinions just feel like a stretch
Chris's status is that he strongly believes me to be scum. He also believes Cythare to be town, and of course himself to be town. That would mean that if I die and flip town, to him, Iso was wrong about all three. Him not going with my plan would mean he is town reading Iso, regardless of my flip. Which means he has offered nothing into any of his other scum reads. Even if he doesn't believe I flip town, he has done very little (from what I have seen) to pursue his other two scum reads in the eight other players.
Quote from Sir Chris »
I don't like being thought of as a poor scum player. I don't like feeling insulted. It's insulting! I'm literally better than that! You talk about MY analysis, and you say THIS passes muster. That is pathetic analysis on YOUR part.
Welcome to the club. We should start selling T-shirts.
Quote from ZDS »
The GJ vs Iso fight has more to do with these two's common past than with this game. Well at least it can explain the Gentleman's reluctance to look elsewhere and ridiculous tunnel vision. But seriously GJ, sacrificing yourself to try to get another player lynched? Unless you flip day-cop or something, it isn't going to work. I kind of want you to be scum just because that is the only scenario where your self vote is a somewhat smart play.
I would argue self-voting myself with zero people stating a town read on me prior to my back and forth seems far too self-destructive, but obvious WIFOM coming from me.
Quote from Sir Chris »
This is why I am still voting GJ. Usually self votes make me jump off super quick but like... we're all good players. That is so reactionary that I have trouble believing it is genuine. It's like it's so town it rolls back over into being scummy because of the circumstances.
I have seen you use the exact opposite logic in games we played together where a play was so scummy, you read it as probable town, and ended up being wrong. Occam's razor is a thing.
Quote from Wheat-Grinder »
Because Johnny doesn't actually believe it. He thinks that the bluff will work because only town are that confident. Therefore, he just has to act confident.
This sounds like you are afraid of being burned, rather than actually reading me as scum.
I'll post a list when I get a few answers to the above.
1. He may have thought your lynch was building too quickly and worried that he actually WOULD have been blamed if you flipped town, especially since a number of players stated their violent opposition to your wagon.
2. He may have foreseen your wagon was going to fall apart shortly, and didn't feel a need to stay on it in favor of a more viable target.
3. He might have felt that it was necessary to jump off your wagon in order to better emulate his own townie play, prioritizing maintaining his cover over the quick kill.
4. He might have done it for WIFOM purposes, so he or a scum-buddy could make that argument in his defense.
5. You could be scum-buddies and he didn't want to kill you.
I have no particular reason to espouse any of those alternatives, but I dislike pushing the notion that Proph is cleared on such a weak and flimsy basis.
I started re-reading and noticed a trend of lackluster posts from Prophylaxis. He apparently has a lot of trouble understanding how other players get their scum-reads from (and it's effectively difficult to understand where a scum-read comes from when you are scum yourself), and I don't see how any of the questions he is asking or the remarks he is making will lead him to scum (which is the more worrying part).
This is simply false - all of my questions have been leading to finding scum. Taking a couple of examples from my most recent post:
Quote from Proph »
How did I "make things up and backed off of them"?
I'm asking Chris why he stated that, because I haven't made up or backed off on anything at all. I just noted something strange that I've never seen from him before and voted him because my gut told me that he was being caught for the wrong reasons.
Quote from Proph »
Why? I'm interested on how he came to the exact opposite conclusion I did on the GJ post.
This is to get more of a detailed read on Rhand, since I didn't see how Wheat's big post was townie at all.
Quote from Proph »
Why did you 180 on your Chris read?
Felt strange for Az to chainsaw Chris after he just voted him, so that's why I asked this question.
Quote from Proph »
What do you think of his response with the self vote? Do you think that's a bluff?
I'm not really understanding why you think GJ is scum? It's obvious that he wants for you to commit on a read of him, and I don't see how you can read #154 as anything other than townie exasperation.
These questions were for defending GJ since I think Iso is wrong on him and I want him to re-evaluate.
Quote from Proph »
Cythare - Do you think Iso and GJ are both scum?
I asked this question to Cythare because I don't think GJ and Iso are buddies based on their interactions together.
Most of my questions have been trying to get more information into the game, simply because it's easier to analyse when you have full information vs partial.
Quote from ZDS »
We are talking about a comment about activity, generic answers to generic questions, and a re-telling of his play in a past game. How do you get any sort of read from these things?
I mindmelded with Iso about his comment with regards to Az, since I've experienced the same thing as town in multiple games where Iso scumread me.
Seppel's comment about activity felt like slight townie irritation, and I don't think he would post his "let me survive to D3 then I'll scumhunt" comment as scum.
Quote from ZDS »
Also, his Chris vote in #195 is low-effort. A "gotcha" vote? Really?
Basically a reasonless vote. Wheat's reasoning is "Proph's trying too hard" which doesn't make any sense.
Quote from Az »
I feel strongly that the GJ wagon is infested with silly townies and Proph is scum trying to get us to chase them.
I'm with you, Seppel.
vote Proph
Don't understand why anyone is reading GJ's attitude as scummy.
DCIII already codified a lot about why I don't like this vote - if you think the GJ is town, then why are you assuming that there are no scum on the wagon? Four people voted GJ - you think scum wouldn't be eager to push along the mislynch?
Sure, as Seppel states, there could be no scum on the wagon, but I think it's safe to assume that there is at least one in most cases.
I've already covered ZDS's vote on me, and Cyan's is just a barn of it (plus, he didn't like my Chris vote).
As for the players who are off the wagon..
I feel like Rhand's "I wouldn't mind being on the Proph wagon" is opportunist, especially since he hasn't said anything about it before and he was barning the momentum on my wagon. I also feel like Sir Chris is trying to stay off my wagon because he knows that I'll flip town. Wheat should be voting Chris instead of GJ.
i also blame ged, because he's not actually sparrowhawk
You don't know that.
The archmage wouldn't have forgotten.
Quote from Proph »
Basically a reasonless vote. Wheat's reasoning is "Proph's trying too hard" which doesn't make any sense.
Your scum meta is that you never post (which you know already, I'm 99% certain I remember you saying that before).
This game you're posting a lot but it feels...forced. Like you're aware of it and are trying to avoid it as hard as you can but it doesn't come off naturally.
Let's do a little contest. We all name the scumteam now and whoever is closest to the truth gets post-game bragging rights.
I'll start: Azrael, Cythare, Proph.
Woah, there. Quick, Rhand - what was the last game we agreed on so many reads in?
I started re-reading and noticed a trend of lackluster posts from Prophylaxis. He apparently has a lot of trouble understanding how other players get their scum-reads from (and it's effectively difficult to understand where a scum-read comes from when you are scum yourself), and I don't see how any of the questions he is asking or the remarks he is making will lead him to scum (which is the more worrying part).
Getting minor townvibes from both Iso and Seppel. Seppel's "I hope this doesn't turn into another D1 earlygame where 4 of us do the talking, another 4 post once, and another 4 don't even show up" feels genuine, and his responses to Iso lacks self awareness. I'm fine with his response re: True Name.
We are talking about a comment about activity, generic answers to generic questions, and a re-telling of his play in a past game. How do you get any sort of read from these things?
Also, his Chris vote in #195 is low-effort. A "gotcha" vote? Really?
It strikes me as curious that Iso, who is super hard reading me scum, would get that pissy over me missing a post or two, or not quite understanding his position. If he truly thought I was scum, I am clearly just screwing with him. I think this is a slip on his part, but not perhaps a scum slip.
Repeating myself is one of my biggest peeves. (Somehow, repeating that in every game doesn't peeve me!)
If it's not a scumslip, does that make it a townslip?
Quote from Gentleman Johnny »
Quote from Iso »
I'm not sure why people think GJ's reaction to me is town. I feel like his self-vote was a bluff, and that he's counting on that to push his wagon away.
I don't bluff. We both know that, but I can't remember what game we were in with this similar situation...
Oh, you mean Ozone Underground, where you claimed Neutral that had already fulfilled your win con, and then EtR counterclaimed you after Guardman revealed his ability, and you tried to bluff out EtR? Because you were scum in that game.
However, if I'm not mistaken, didn't we have a similar stand-off in Osteria where I claimed VT before I even hit L-2 and then you got really pissed off that people stopped voting me even though it was a VT claim?
Hey, GJ, I'm curious - what are you reads on Rhand, Cythare, ZDS, Proph, Azrael, and Sir Chris? I know you said you'd post a list once you got some answers, but I'm interested in those 6 from you, mostly.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You haven't even mentioned me ITT up until I responded asked you a question. Your next post is "I wouldn't be opposed to a Proph wagon", then you vote me.
You haven't even mentioned me ITT up until I responded asked you a question. Your next post is "I wouldn't be opposed to a Proph wagon", then you vote me.
I'll claim once I reread.
Therefore, I could ONLY possibly be bandwagoning you. Get over yourself. You're acting like I have no business scumreading you when you've done nothing to establish yourself as a shining beacon of town, and when other people have already presented reasonable arguments against you.
Do you think that the arguments against you are unreasonable?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Wheat: it looks like a slip because Seppel never said he would flip town. He just said "when I flip".
Wait, I thought the post you didn't like was Cythare's post #15?
In any case, I have more questions for you if it's actually Seppel's post #14. For everybody's reference, Seppel said:
Quote from Seppel »
Does that matter? If/when I flip, you'd better listen to what I say about him.
@Rhand: I think the phrasing makes sense to imply that he would flip town, since we wouldn't listen to him if he flipped scum. What in his phrasing are you seeing that implies that he won't flip town?
So I quote something, respond to it, then Ctrl+A, Ctrl+C, and move on to the next thing I want to quote. Sometimes paste in a notepad window if I have to step away in the middle of reading. I had two tabs of this game open, one with the incomplete post, and the other where I finished the post. So I clicked post and moved on to my other games. Then at some point I must've come back, seen that I had an unposted post in that first window, and clicked post without remembering that I had already posted the full text wall.
@Wheat: I am talking about Cythare's reaction to that post. He just accepts that Seppel will flip town.
I accept that in Seppel's scenario of "if/when I flip", he's implying "if/when I flip town". His post makes no sense otherwise. How could you interpret it otherwise?
And yes, if that happens, I'll listen to what he has to say about Azrael.
Mind you my vote isn't on anyone who is voting me so hey. Plus I think scum tend to be pretty cowardly (see my biggest problem out of anyone who talked about me was the way DCIII nudged it)
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
I'm not sure why I thought this was so golden. It's definitely a townie reaction, but it's fakable, at least by Chris. See, Chris, instead of giving in to pressure and trying to come up with some read on me, says that it's impossible to come up with a read on me based on the few posts I've made so far. There's just pure indignation in regards to having enough time to scumhunt me. He even points out that I haven't done anything that aligns with either my town or scum meta, which is a neat thing to add -- it shows that he's thinking about me subjectively (townie thinking) instead of trying to find reasons that will fit whether or not it's a good time to push a lynch on me (scum thinking).
So yeah. Chris is a good faker, but I don't think he was faking.
The Gentleman Johnny way of saying, "U MAD BRO?" Arguments like this have been proven to be garbage. In a recent game, we even had 6 townies on a D1 wagon before it dissolved.
I don't think it necessarily generally is. I think it's easier for Iso to talk about himself than others, because he's able to shrug off the pressure "because Iso".
Reads can evolve - this is where I'm at now, and you asked.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
I'm with you, Seppel.
vote Proph
Don't understand why anyone is reading GJ's attitude as scummy.
I'm not sure why people think GJ's reaction to me is town. I feel like his self-vote was a bluff, and that he's counting on that to push his wagon away.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
There was certainly nothing tentative about my stance on you. I said that I didn't like your responses to Proph or your comment to Az about Iso, and then I didn't like your reaction to me and Cyan. You're right that I've come at you harder in other games, but it feels like you're ignoring context. I've no doubt you've seen this approach of mine as well, especially early in the game, and you've said yourself that I've made mistakes reading you in the past. It feels like you're taking an aspect of my game and are trying to apply it universally but it really doesn't make sense here. I didn't like the stuff you did early, I called it out. I didn't like your reaction, I called it out. That's tentative how? I did the same thing with Seppel - but your assertion that my approach was tentative was specific to you. I wasn't sold you were scum but I saw things I didn't like. Did you think I'd think you would just ignore me or that we wouldn't have a discussion about it?
So there's that. You say that Cyan is offering nothing substantial. His lines are short, but he's not parsing words and I think his reasons are pretty clear. It would be one thing to say that he's not engaging with you more, but to say there's no substance to what he's saying feels like a discredit.
But then there's Proph, who I can't imagine you thinking is suspicious at this point. #195 is absolutely a Town Proph post. No doubt. He unvoted a popular wagon that he started. If he was scum and GJ was Town, I can't see him shifting pressure off as momentum was building when he got in on the ground floor. He would have a Town you, from your perspective, attacking a Town player hard that he started suspicion on. If he was scum and GJ was scum, he wouldn't have the confidence to draw that kind of scrutiny by unvoting his buddy's wagon as it was building steam.
You're good enough at assessing players to realize that but, even if I assume that you missed that, you certainly don't think scum Proph is shifting his vote to Town you and going toe to toe with Town you. You're too cocky to think that. You know Proph respects your game. You've played with Proph. And to suggest that he's doing it to defend scum GJ means you'd have to think that scum Proph would unvote his buddy that he started a wagon on, and decide to try to lynch a Town you instead, who is hammering on his buddy.
I cannot believe that would be Town Chris's honest analysis of that situation.
Unvote: Vote: Sir Chris
This isn't an "I don't think Chris would behave like this as town" point, this is "I know Chris's analysis is better than that."
But, for funsies, another "I don't think town Chris would behave like this" point is your solitary "Nope." to Azrael, who you seemed excited to play with to start the game and whose reputation you say precedes him. He says you made a scum post with no reasoning behind it and rather than engaging why he thinks that, you just shut it down with the nope. I think Town Chris would want to know why Az thought that and would want to flesh it out both to better solidify his read there and to have the back and forth with a player he was excited to play with. I don't like that Az didn't care about that either and is now calling you "silly Town." Queue the "I vary my play" and "you don't know how I'd act as Town" responses. Which is fine, because that point is ancillary to the analysis point, which I think is golden.
------
Other thoughts:
I have pretty confident Town reads on Proph, Iso, and Rhand and Town leans on Cyan, ZDS, and Wheat
Cythare's most recent two posts I like the least of his posts but I'd still probably err town.
Seppel's early play still skeeves me out. His more recent play seems more standard generally with his bouncing to Cythare and GJ and jumping off GJ when he did, but he's still got some self-aware lines that I'm not used to seeing from him, like the one ZDS called out and him pointing out that his wall is small for today which means that he thinks people are expecting big walls out of him regularly and it's abnormal for him to feel the need to say things like that about his own play.
I still don't really care for GJ. His self vote and responses after feel like show. He's making the leap from, "if I flip Town that naturally implicates Iso, why wouldn't Chris naturally suspect him" when it's like he's ignoring the possibility that someone else could think Iso could just be wrong. His opinions just feel like a stretch.
Az does feel like he's overdoing it with his playfulness. I didn't feel great about his move to ZDS (on the surface appears like a pressure vote to address lurking but my general thought is that Az probably wouldn't think ZDS would respond poorly to a vote like that anyway), I liked his Chris vote (in that I like that he was voting Chris) but then his "we're scum buddies, wink, wink" shenanigans are creepy and unnecessary and I'd like him to explain his reasoning for that vote. I also don't see a reason to hold his Iso and Proph reads close to his vest early, didn't agree with those reads to begin with, and don't remember him doing that in Gatecrash. His comment about my reads being looking for something that wasn't there was vague as was his follow up explanation. He didn't apply it to them specifically and it definitely didn't apply to the Seppel read because that read was literally the opposite, it was me seeing things that I didn't expect to see from Seppel as opposed to looking for things that weren't there.
And I really don't like his vote on Proph now after #195. That last post of his feels so scummy. Firstly, that doesn't seem like a Proph play, secondly, it's pretty common to think scum are pushing an early wagon if you don't agree with it, thirdly, Proph unvoting the wagon he started and then saying there are scum on it doesn't seem like scum Proph, either. And then the general "I don't understand" why this scum read player is being read as scum line doesn't feel genuine at all, especially considering how much discussion there's been around the point and in the context of him thinking the people on the wagon are all silly Town.
Strong scum reads on Chris and Az.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Why? I'm interested on how he came to the exact opposite conclusion I did on the GJ post.
One game doesn't mean that an entire method of analysis is invalidated. And that's not even my only point against Chris!
Why did you 180 on your Chris read?
What do you think of his response with the self vote? Do you think that's a bluff?
I'm not really understanding why you think GJ is scum? It's obvious that he wants for you to commit on a read of him, and I don't see how you can read #154 as anything other than townie exasperation.
---
I agree with basically all of DCIII's post re: Chris.
Cythare response is fine but I'm still not convinced of his read on Iso.
Cythare - Do you think Iso and GJ are both scum?
Actually if you read my 203 I think it becomes pretty clear that I don't think proph is scummy, I was just frustrated. I don't think anyone who had voted me up until that point is likely to be scum except maybe cyan who you say has shown reasons but that's a blatant lie. Completely blatant. I like being the center of attention when I can read through things and get to the heart of the matter. I don't like being confused about things. Several, several posts have left me confused to a person's thinking and doesn't help me game solve. Although I am glad you have such a deep, abiding faith in someone's town game that you can see one post and go "lol town." Perhaps I just don't have the experience with proph, but I thought he was a good player, and good players generally can't be town cleared from one post.
Like welcome to Cyan:
Welcome to the things Cyan has said about me. Look, I get attacked pretty much literally every game, it's just the nature of the beast. That's fine, it's great in fact. But now I would like you to read this, and explain to me what Cyan is thinking. Because here's the thing: for whatever god forsaken reason, either as town or scum, Cyan has decided to go with "Chris' obvious joke RVS vote is something greater and he, as scum, made some huge mistake and when questioned about it right away made up BS in an ill-fated attempt to cover up SOMETHING."
Like ???
I don't like being thought of as a poor scum player. I don't like feeling insulted. It's insulting! I'm literally better than that! You talk about MY analysis, and you say THIS passes muster. That is pathetic analysis on YOUR part.
Also to my recollection in the past whenever you have suspected me it has always come with a vote. I can't recall a time where you didn't get in my face immediately. That is what bothered me, but now your really bad analysis of me... actually I don't know, you do seem to do this song and dance pretty often <_<. I like to think when people misrep me horrifically they are scum but you do it so often as town... I guess at best that's a null tell. Huh.
I am not going to say either of the quoted things, you are just wrong. I wanted to see how Az would react to being shut down, and he reacted well. He could have been like you and made a big deal out of nothing, but he tilted his head to the side and thought about it. I like Az now.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Because I think someone asked for a long wall of text! At this point, I'd call it "anti-town but not indicative of scum." We need an acronym for that. The "U MAD BRO?" comment was absurdly confident. Do you really think he thinks he's indestructible? He's still a mystery to me, and if there's no additional mysteries in the interim, I can help elucidate it. I think it's happened like 3 times in this year alone.
Innocuous comments are valuable. This tickles my CFTWR gland, even though it isn't. I'm very interested in where you place your vote. Can you do that in your next post? Reveal your secrets.
Because I think someone asked for a long wall of text! At this point, I'd call it "anti-town but not indicative of scum." We need an acronym for that. The "U MAD BRO?" comment was absurdly confident. Do you really think he thinks he's indestructible? He's still a mystery to me, and if there's no additional mysteries in the interim, I can help elucidate it. I think it's happened like 3 times in this year alone.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
This is good insight from Seppel, leaning town. Have yet to see a scum Seppel able to parse his read on me this well.
This is why I am still voting GJ. Usually self votes make me jump off super quick but like... we're all good players. That is so reactionary that I have trouble believing it is genuine. It's like it's so town it rolls back over into being scummy because of the circumstances.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Hi Seppel, I think that GJ thinks very highly of his scum game and very poorly of his town game. Indestructible? Probably not. Pretty damn good? I think so!
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Hmm. Something about this post bugs me, I need to figure out what exactly.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Because Johnny doesn't actually believe it. He thinks that the bluff will work because only town are that confident. Therefore, he just has to act confident.
It's because Johnny thinks he's making the right plays, it's like...
yeah, that's it
By which, you mean?
You asked me why I am geeked to play with Az. Because he's someone who has been talked about as a really good player. Playing with good players is what makes mafia great.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Anyway, I'm town in a game full of great players. I have some new insights on my gameplay as of late, and feel like I've nailed the scumteam early in an (arguably) all-star game - a game that more people in our playerbase voted for me to be in than anyone else. What's not to be excited about?
If I were scum, I probably wouldn't be nearly as excited.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Whitespace question too. It wasn't rhetorical.
This seems reasonable.
Infested with silly town != I'm town-reading all four players on the wagon.
And I'm well aware of the various boring walls of text attempting to set out why GJ is scum, I simply have a completely opposite tonal read.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I think he knows Seppel is town.
unvote, vote Cythare
I'll start: Azrael, Cythare, Proph.
I'm betting on Johnny, Chris, Proph. ZDS is an outside 4th.
Rhand: Why is #15 a slip as opposed to merely being flippant?
You always feel that way. That... isn't a question...? I endorse this vote and its reasoning. How nice of you guys to catch up with us. Where are your votes? Proph first.
i've played fewer games with him than almost anyone else on the list
I would like to know what games you felt scummy vibes from me, where I happened to be town. Immediately.
It strikes me as curious that Iso, who is super hard reading me scum, would get that pissy over me missing a post or two, or not quite understanding his position. If he truly thought I was scum, I am clearly just screwing with him. I think this is a slip on his part, but not perhaps a scum slip.
Since you seem to be reading me as town and Proph as scum, what motivation would a scum proph have to get off the wagon, when he probably would have had 0 fault on my lynch?
I don't bluff. We both know that, but I can't remember what game we were in with this similar situation...
Chris's status is that he strongly believes me to be scum. He also believes Cythare to be town, and of course himself to be town. That would mean that if I die and flip town, to him, Iso was wrong about all three. Him not going with my plan would mean he is town reading Iso, regardless of my flip. Which means he has offered nothing into any of his other scum reads. Even if he doesn't believe I flip town, he has done very little (from what I have seen) to pursue his other two scum reads in the eight other players.
Welcome to the club. We should start selling T-shirts.
I would argue self-voting myself with zero people stating a town read on me prior to my back and forth seems far too self-destructive, but obvious WIFOM coming from me.
I have seen you use the exact opposite logic in games we played together where a play was so scummy, you read it as probable town, and ended up being wrong. Occam's razor is a thing.
This sounds like you are afraid of being burned, rather than actually reading me as scum.
I'll post a list when I get a few answers to the above.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
1. He may have thought your lynch was building too quickly and worried that he actually WOULD have been blamed if you flipped town, especially since a number of players stated their violent opposition to your wagon.
2. He may have foreseen your wagon was going to fall apart shortly, and didn't feel a need to stay on it in favor of a more viable target.
3. He might have felt that it was necessary to jump off your wagon in order to better emulate his own townie play, prioritizing maintaining his cover over the quick kill.
4. He might have done it for WIFOM purposes, so he or a scum-buddy could make that argument in his defense.
5. You could be scum-buddies and he didn't want to kill you.
I have no particular reason to espouse any of those alternatives, but I dislike pushing the notion that Proph is cleared on such a weak and flimsy basis.
(4) Prophylaxis - Azrael, Cyan, Seppel, ZeDorkSlipeur
(4) Gentleman Johnny - Gentleman Johnny, Iso, Sir Chris, Wheat_Grinder
(2) Sir Chris - DCIII, Prophylaxis
(1) Cythare - Rhand
(1) Iso - Cythare
With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.
You don't know that.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
I'm asking Chris why he stated that, because I haven't made up or backed off on anything at all. I just noted something strange that I've never seen from him before and voted him because my gut told me that he was being caught for the wrong reasons.
This is to get more of a detailed read on Rhand, since I didn't see how Wheat's big post was townie at all.
Felt strange for Az to chainsaw Chris after he just voted him, so that's why I asked this question.
These questions were for defending GJ since I think Iso is wrong on him and I want him to re-evaluate.
I asked this question to Cythare because I don't think GJ and Iso are buddies based on their interactions together.
Most of my questions have been trying to get more information into the game, simply because it's easier to analyse when you have full information vs partial.
I mindmelded with Iso about his comment with regards to Az, since I've experienced the same thing as town in multiple games where Iso scumread me.
Seppel's comment about activity felt like slight townie irritation, and I don't think he would post his "let me survive to D3 then I'll scumhunt" comment as scum.
How is my Chris vote a "gotcha" vote?
-----
Wagon analysis:
Prophylaxis (4): Seppel, Azrael, ZDS, Cyan
Basically a reasonless vote. Wheat's reasoning is "Proph's trying too hard" which doesn't make any sense.
DCIII already codified a lot about why I don't like this vote - if you think the GJ is town, then why are you assuming that there are no scum on the wagon? Four people voted GJ - you think scum wouldn't be eager to push along the mislynch?
Sure, as Seppel states, there could be no scum on the wagon, but I think it's safe to assume that there is at least one in most cases.
I've already covered ZDS's vote on me, and Cyan's is just a barn of it (plus, he didn't like my Chris vote).
As for the players who are off the wagon..
I feel like Rhand's "I wouldn't mind being on the Proph wagon" is opportunist, especially since he hasn't said anything about it before and he was barning the momentum on my wagon. I also feel like Sir Chris is trying to stay off my wagon because he knows that I'll flip town. Wheat should be voting Chris instead of GJ.
The archmage wouldn't have forgotten.
Your scum meta is that you never post (which you know already, I'm 99% certain I remember you saying that before).
This game you're posting a lot but it feels...forced. Like you're aware of it and are trying to avoid it as hard as you can but it doesn't come off naturally.
Woah, there. Quick, Rhand - what was the last game we agreed on so many reads in?
For my three, I'm thinking Chris, Cythare, Proph.
It's also always totally true.
Why did you attribute this quote to me?
How nice of you guys to catch up with us. Where are your votes?[/quote]
Currently on Gentleman Johnny. But Proph's 1 away from claim, and I'd like to see what he comes up with.
Unvote, Vote Proph
if it makes you feel any better I am legitimately townreading you in this game, and not just writing you off because "it's wheat who the **** knows"
Repeating myself is one of my biggest peeves. (Somehow, repeating that in every game doesn't peeve me!)
If it's not a scumslip, does that make it a townslip?
Oh, you mean Ozone Underground, where you claimed Neutral that had already fulfilled your win con, and then EtR counterclaimed you after Guardman revealed his ability, and you tried to bluff out EtR? Because you were scum in that game.
However, if I'm not mistaken, didn't we have a similar stand-off in Osteria where I claimed VT before I even hit L-2 and then you got really pissed off that people stopped voting me even though it was a VT claim?
Hey, GJ, I'm curious - what are you reads on Rhand, Cythare, ZDS, Proph, Azrael, and Sir Chris? I know you said you'd post a list once you got some answers, but I'm interested in those 6 from you, mostly.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I won't claim yet but I should have time to reread/do comprehensive analysis tomorrow.
So no, you need to go ahead and claim, or eat fire (and die from it).
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'll claim once I reread.
@Wheat: it looks like a slip because Seppel never said he would flip town. He just said "when I flip".
@GJ: IIRC I haven't seen you as scum, only as SK. So pretty much every game we ever played together.
Therefore, I could ONLY possibly be bandwagoning you. Get over yourself. You're acting like I have no business scumreading you when you've done nothing to establish yourself as a shining beacon of town, and when other people have already presented reasonable arguments against you.
Do you think that the arguments against you are unreasonable?
My question wasn't rhetorical!
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Wait, I thought the post you didn't like was Cythare's post #15?
In any case, I have more questions for you if it's actually Seppel's post #14. For everybody's reference, Seppel said:
@Rhand: I think the phrasing makes sense to imply that he would flip town, since we wouldn't listen to him if he flipped scum. What in his phrasing are you seeing that implies that he won't flip town?
@Iso: I can't think of any game where we agreed on reads. We usually spend half the game calling each other scum.
So I quote something, respond to it, then Ctrl+A, Ctrl+C, and move on to the next thing I want to quote. Sometimes paste in a notepad window if I have to step away in the middle of reading. I had two tabs of this game open, one with the incomplete post, and the other where I finished the post. So I clicked post and moved on to my other games. Then at some point I must've come back, seen that I had an unposted post in that first window, and clicked post without remembering that I had already posted the full text wall.
And yes, if that happens, I'll listen to what he has to say about Azrael.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)