That plan goes direct opposite of how your tone and reads have been showing for today. And for what? You confirm two players everyone else confirmed, and feel the same amount of doubt for the exact same three players you are tied down from? GJ/Jobie/Taredas. That's where you were today.
I am curious if you are capable of acknowledging the convenience that since multiple people have managed to really dig their claws into Wheat now you go "oh yeah, I'll totally lynch that guy.
Quote from Me »
I am curious if you are capable of acknowledging the convenience that I am quite aware of how I interacted with Wheat yesterday will make me look bad today if Wheat is lynched and flips scum.
Chris made a post that was almost word for word identical to this one towards me. I responded in kind mostly out of snarkiness.
Seppel you have lost me I thought Proph was your second good town read, now it is Taredas? Where did Proph go?
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I don't want to rush a game along any more than I have to, especially on day 4. But at the same time, it's my responsibility to keep the game moving at a reasonable pace if the players are not doing so. I understand that the holidays are a busy time, but I think it's time to set a deadline.
A deadline has been set for Wednesday, December 30th.
This is longer than I would otherwise give because Christmas is living in there. If the game appears to be moving forward at that time (two weeks from now...) I will consider extending the deadline.
I....literally don't know how you can say with a straight face I had zero interaction with WG day 1. I had TONS of it, but the difference was that I was reading him and defending him as town, going after Sir Chris. I had TONS of interaction with WG, and my dynamic towards him did switch to reading him more scum, just as my read on Sir Chris started leaning more towards town. I can't point to a single post where that switch happened, but day 2, I just started to inch farther and farther away from a scum Sir Chris and a town WG.
Please point out where you had interactions with Wheat Day 1. I did a quick skim of your posts and the only place where you interacted with Wheat are these questions:
Quote from GJ »
So you think all 3 of us have just been giving each other reach-arounds, and everyone else is town this game?
Quote from GJ »
@Wheat: I see it is likely a town read. You are really flip floppy in your reads as town, and did the same 180 on Iso in XKCD mafia where you were town reading him day 1, scum reading him days 2/3. From what I have seen in your scum games, you tend to be pretty static in your town reads, and seldom seemed to switch, like you were in Star Trek. I can't remember true name, but I believe there was a similar pattern as well.
I'll try to get to the Seppel read through tonight and then I'll cast my vote.
"GJ then starts to case Wheat despite not mentioning him for basically all of Day 1."
I also had:
Quote from GJ »
Which would be fine, except I don't see a single reason why you decided WG was the correct person to pursue. Why are you reading Wheat as scum?
This is a question to Sir Chris, and it should be clear I am town reading Wheat, and scum reading Chris at this stage. 564, I am challenging Sir Chris on his read on Wheat, and continue to do so here.
Sorry, I've been very sick the past few days and it has been slowing me down, I spent like 14 hours in bed the last 19 or so, its been brutal.
I just don't think GJ is scum at this stage, Taredas. I think he's said some stuff that looks bad but effort to me is more telling than not in end game scenarios. Scum 90% of the time are going to flounder at end game, where town will act with vigor. Also we can agree on Seppel. I think literally everyone can agree on Seppel (except maybe Proph?) and I think you're playing with fear right now, Taredas. Can't play with fear at end game.
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Summary of Seppel:
Starts off with the "I can read Azrael better than anyone else" statement which we all know this game disproves that theory. Has the activity comment which I thought sounded genuine on Day 1, but we had relatively little to go on at that stage, so I'm treating it as a null tell right now. Something I noticed now that I'm looking through his ISO is that Seppel had a pretty consistent track record of starting/joining wagons then rapidly hopping off them, which is what he did with Cythare, GJ, and then me. Note that he starts off scumreading GJ then shifts it later to "anti town but not indicative of scum".
Something that strikes me as odd is that sometimes it appears that Seppel has scintillating reads on Wheat, which I am not sure if they were buddies that Seppel would do that. First, Seppel goes:
Quote from Seppel »
Wheat reminded me that Proph is scum.
He then labels Wheat as scum with me and Cythare, then he says "I have a townread on Wheat" all without reasoning. Trying to think if scum!Seppel would bounce a read back and forth like that.
And man Seppel shifts votes like crazy. Bunch of times onto ZDS and Iso.
Quote from Seppel »
(ง'̀-'́)ง fite me
It's annoying that nobody is scumreading me and just a few people are being suspicious of me and DOING NOTHING ABOUT IT.
This posts does ring true though. Don't think Seppel would invite pressure on him as scum?
Hard-lines against ZDS here and was a key component of getting him lynched.
DAY 2
His posts here indicate that he thought that ZDS flipped town, which I still have no idea how he came to that conclusion but his posts are consistent with that fact.
How does Seppel vote Wheat here after exclaiming for most of Day 1 that Wheat was town? GJ and Seppel, they both hopped onto the Wheat wagon despite them saying positive things about Wheat D1. This I feel like confirms either one of them as scum (not that we didn't know that already!) since I think it's a very logical scum thought process to make when you see your buddy be the counterwagon to the town lynch.
He calls Chris scum ("scumChris tilt!") but doesn't actually follow up on it? Then we start on the rereads which I actually really like, even on a reread. The Cythare one mindmelded with my Jobie/Cythare reread I did earlier, but assuming the scum knew that Wheat was going down anyways I'm not awarding it to him. I'm also unsure if Seppel/GJ were scum if Seppel would put a big "I DON'T KNOW" on his buddy like that.
Still like the "I think I just caught you" language from Seppel. Same thing with regards to Az as well. Has this post:
If Rhand comes in to hammer me, the game's in your hands. I absolve myself of any trainwreck that happens after my lynch. I've already posted everything that needs to be posted to find the scum.
Final recap:
Cyan
DCIII/Taredas
Sir Chris
Prophylaxis
Rhand
Gentleman Johnny
Cythare
Azrael
Wheat_Grinder
GJ goes up to leaning town because he's still participating and his posts are (dare I say it) good.
Cythare goes down to gray for doing uck all nothing.
N2: Rhand dies while protecting Cyan (or they block Cyan + kill Rhand)
D3: Lynch Wheat
N3: Cyan dies (or Rhand if still alive)
D4: Lynch Azrael
N4: Taredas dies
We endgame with:
1. Sir Chris
2. Prophylaxis
3. Cythare
4. Gentleman Johnny
NL if you want Proph or Chris to pointlessly die.
Cythare and GJ duke it out. GJ probably wins due to posting more. We find out if we've won.
Which is still pretty townie though I don't know if Seppel can fake it. Pushing GJ to townie is though.
Then we get to Day 3/Day 4, where the content level of Seppel noticeably drops. The thing that bothers me is that he kept proclaiming Az as scum throughout Day 2 but never actually votes him Day 3, and the way that he tries to use that as a defense early on in Day 4 was pretty terrible. It feels like Seppel is trying to vie for Jobie as a mislynch and trying to protect his buddy GJ here, if they are both scum.
Voting pattern:
Sir Chris (RVS), Cythare (D1), GJ (d1), Prophylaxis (D1) Cyan (D1), ZDS (D1), Iso (D1)
Cyan (D2), Wheat (D2)
Conclusion: Seppel was strongest to me during Day 2, and having a look back on his posts during that time frame reminded me why I thought Seppel was town. Seppel's Day 1 was questionable and his interactions with Wheat are subpar at best. Also, him fitting on a team with GJ and Wheat makes sense, but I just want to know if he's capable of faking his Day 2 stuff. Like, if Tar's point about the SQUEEZE PLAY is true, then why has Seppel been angling for a Jobie lynch all this time? If they were scum together, then wouldn't it be smarter for them to aggressively bus (unless they need to keep Jobie as someone under suspicion or something?)
So yeah. This is what I'm working with right now. Would value input from Chris/Tar on Seppel.
If it means anything I am pretty sure Seppel, as either alignment, was just teasing me when he called my tilt scum.
I mean Seppel appears to be banking on absurdism at this point. He literally 'mixed up' his sure town read twice this page and he acts like it's the most common thing in the world to do. It's just... so insane that I have to think it is scum hoping we believe only town would be so silly.
Also I understand your point Proph, but you assume optimal play there with your scenario. There is surely an optimal path to play this day if seppel is scum, but I am not sure if seppel is good enough to do it to be frank.
Probably going to be voting Seppel soon, unless I hear objections. I have given him every chance to say something of note and he just...doesn't seem to want to.
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Seppel has had a track record of mixing up things. I still struggle to imagine how he missed ZDS's flip.
Maybe I'm WIFOMing myself out, with the way Seppel has approached Today?
No objections on the vote; I don't think that I can get enough people to lynch GJ Today (you're townreading him, Jobie is, and Seppel is ambivalent) so I'm fine lynching Seppel and lynching GJ Tomorrow.
The thing is he claimed to miss a flip very similarly in Wu Tang as scum too. It's in the dude's wheel house to pull a stunt like that.
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But yeah if Proph doesn't have an objection, he'd be the only person who really has tried to rationalize Seppel's craziness this game.
##vote: Seppel
Going to take a shower and get something to eat, we should discuss GJ some more when I get back Proph, I think he's town!
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Well, Chris. You were right about me. Let's find out if we continue this discussion tomorrow or not since Proph feels like slowrolling the crap out us....
I'd like to pretend my planned contingency reread on Sir Chris might have had a chance of catching him, but he played a very strong game. I don't think I would ever have grabbed him unless we were in an endgame situation. Major congrats are in order. *tip of the hat*
And for someone who believes his scum game is terrible, Proph's putting in a valiant effort.
I am not feeling well, flu has been hitting me hard this week, but I'll get around to some post game notes.
1. I showed genuine frustration day 1 when I was being bussed by both of my buddies, I did not appreciate that much
2. I think Wheat wanted to murder me in the night 1 scum trap.
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I was hoping so hard that my vig on Proph would get through. I didn't really think the gambit would work, but man, would that have made it a different game entirely. SC probably deletes everyone in the end anyways, 'cause skill, but we could have wriggled around in confusion and disarry for so much longer.
@Sir Chris
I don't believe you would EVER say the phrase "I can't back that up either" as town! What caused you to slip at that moment? Was it really pressure as you mentioned?
I go into a zone when I think like town as scum to the best of my ability. So my town read of Iso this game was very much based on a "genuine read" that only after I said it I realized... I couldn't say why I had the read while being fair to the other game. Do I make that slip as town? I don't know, actually. Maybe if I don't know Iso is town already I don't go to that well, hard to say.
Also this spec chat is predicting our downfall day one yesss.
I saw some questions about how I handled myself this game in spec and peppered into this game... I don't know how to play as scum but to win the game. I just don't know how to do anything other than to try to win. Night 1 in this game was the first time in awhile I felt bad playing mafia because it was like 'even if we win I'll hate it' and it's like... I don't know. I view scum's job is to be liars and manipulate and do whatever it takes within the bounds of the game to win, and that includes bussing. I didn't do anything this game other than try to win, so idk.
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I don't see anything wrong with how you handled yourself, Chris. I don't see anything wrong with "nuking" a partner if that's what the situation calls for.
It's definitely frustrating getting bussed when you feel like it's not the right play, but if your teammates disagree with you, that's their perogative.
*scans over spec thread*
Hmm. Cyan's cop shot was on me. If that hadn't been redirected, that would have been a pretty huge deal, too.
Well in spec someone, ZDS maybe, said I was scum for hedging between seppel and wheat - it's a good spot, but not because of win condition. I would have murdered wheat hard in the face day 2 but I felt like if I did wheat may have never forgiven me and hated me forever. It is the first time in a long time I put something above a win as scum.
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I was thinking about putting in notes about my reactions to some stuff and posting it to the post game later, but I got lazy and never followed up on it.
When I got my role PM and in the first.. couple of weeks of Day 1 I thought we were toast. The town seemed to be firing in all cylinders and my scum game was underperforming - every post I made just sounded artificial. All I wanted to do was to make it up for my team and actually put some real effort in, which led to the dreadnought that somehow got me out of the lynch. My mindset going into it was "well, even if this gets me lynched, I know I put in the most effort possible to prevent it, so I could say that I participated this game. If it gets me out of alive, then.. yay!"
That post really gave me a "level up" in that I could post without constantly worrying if I goofed up or something. I thought my posts from there to.. nearly end of the game (where I just wanted to get the game over with) were decent, even if obviously crafted.
After that and Day 1, I was just pretty much headbanging at how the town constantly devoured itself. It was probably better play to lynch Seppel during Day 2 and get Wheat Day 3, but I thought I needed to dig in my heels and actually commit to lynching the person that I argued for, hence me whiteknighting Seppel and ensuring the Wheat lynch. I was a bit spooked at Cyan calling me scum D2, but I knew that once he saw the Wheat flip then he would massively re-evaluate.
I was also a bit spooked coming into Day 3 with Jobie and Az gunning for me but I had massive town cred at that point, and all I needed to do was try and find a way to attack Azrael genuinely.
Day 4 I wanted to imitate the endgame of Famous Historical Figures (the ideal way an endgame SHOULD be played, IMO) so I spent a bunch of time rereading the game and "letting the posts dictate my reads". I was kind of blatantly scummy with how I completely erased my town reads of GJ and Seppel, but hey - if you're a townie then it's on you to re-evaluate and re-examine your previous townreads. I was kind of phoning it in at that point but our victory was certain, so it didn't matter.
I'm pretty sure I have more thoughts about this game that I'll post when I get to them but this was a immensely enjoyable game, despite me hating rolling scum. I think that this game was really a level up moment for me for my scum play. I don't know if it'll work again in the future, though, since this game has huge meta issues for me. I still wouldn't like to roll scum again, though - deceiving other players was painful and caused me to think "oh my god why is this town so bad".
My scum game also makes me a bit scared as town, as well, since I pulled a bunch of tricks that I highly doubt my town game will figure out. Given that my town game is kind of in a state of flux after Final Fantasy, this is probably one of my last games where I'll use my old tools. I'll probably need to examine my scumhunting strategies to better cope with the tricks scum can do currently.
I would welcome any feedback/suggestions on my scum game. It's something that I do want to improve, since I felt like I was mostly coasting on Chris + using dirty bussing tricks to get through.
So. Day 1 I had Chris dead to rights. And then Iso and his stupid mass claim(but even then I think I was still voting SC). And then DCIII comes along and convinces me to vote ZDS, against my better judgment.
And then Day 2. I knew Proph was scum. I ******* completely knew it. And then Taredas comes along, with his giant letters Proph is town bull***** blah blah blah and all of his meta evidence, so of course I unvoted and moved on. If Taredas doesn't chime in there, I am positive that Proph gets annihilated, and I don't think WG ever escapes.
I know I'm going to take alot of flack for the town losing this game, and I certainly deserve a fair bit of blame, but I think I'm just going to blame the DCIII/Taredas slot instead.
So talk to me about that Thanksgiving post, Sir Chris. Man was I scathingly pissed when I found out you were scum. But then Ged told me that you apologized a bunch, so I calmed down. But still, shame on you. :/
Scum Chris totally puts off cooking to play a game of mafia too, Cyan. My dedication is without question as either alignment, please always read OoG comments by me as null, that is a Law of the Land where I am from and I would be uncomfortable with anyone thinking "chris is town because he mentioned a holiday tomorrow" as that's dirty. My town game doesn't need cheap points like that.
I understand your emotions though. I've been there. There are certain games I just had to have. Maybe I'll tell you some stories after the game.
(still reading)
I really, really meant that. OoG comments like that are just ignored usually, and I tend to ignore them. Also I really was cooking and I really was putting it off to play mafia. I was just mafia instead of town.
Also I'd blame Iso personally. His mass claim ruined this game for town.
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Yeah, I do blame Iso. I did then, I did in the Spectator thread, and I do now. We had a bunch of 1 shot abilities and the scum got to control all of them, effectively. But using out of game arguments is like..bad form. That's all. Especially as scum. I'm over it now, but you shouldn't do it again, I don't know.
I'm not trying to take away from what was an amazing performance on your part AFTER Day 1. You deserved the win that you got once you got out of being under pressure, there is no denying that.
Yeah, I'll try not to. It wasn't a calculated thing.
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But I blame me too, I just couldn't get over the idea that Azrael was scum, even with a scum literally telling me that he was town. Plus you know, I also thought Seppel was scum(town) and Cythare was scum(town). Etc. My two top town reads at the end of the game were the two scum so..yeah. There was alot of blame to go around.
Not going to lie in the end of the year thing I am probably nominating this town for worst town performance. I don't want to rub salt in any wounds so I'll refrain from going into details at the moment, but boy did I feel bad for you guys collectively.
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@Cyan: I think at the end, one of the big problems (and most of the town in particular) was that everyone seemed to be townreading and scumreading different people, with absolutely no coordination. I think you suspected Cythare/Jobie, GJ, me, Seppel, Chris, ZDS, Iso, Wheat, and Azrael (with some Tar in there) at different points through the game. That's 9 people! Literally the only person you trusted off the bat and never wavered on was Rhand.
It was probably difficult since, as you said, everyone's games being good makes it hard to fully trust anyone. If the town tried to form a townbloc/cluster of townreads sometime during Day 2 or something, then I think the game would be much harder for us to win.
I think you did a great job being transparently town, and that's honestly 50% of what a townie needs to do. It was unfortunate that you townread both of us, but generally you can count on your other fellow townies to pick up your pieces. Mafia is a team game, after all - it's very rare for one person to be universally townread as well as immediately catch all the scum.
I think it's pretty amazing that both Chris and Proph managed to recover from near-lynch situations.
I still don't understand why the mylo town wrote Chris off as town to the point that he wasn't even reread 'to be sure', apart from Taredas.
I shouldn't have protected Cyan the Night I died I guess. I had realized that Chris was scum during Night.
I was fully prepared to defend myself but it was never required. Certainly made this last day boring.
ZDS me being scum seems to end badly for you. We really must find a way for you to survive day one unharmed when I am in the game.
I think wagon and interaction analysis would have been very brutal in trying to catch me this game. I bussed Wheat so hard even Wheat thought I was being spiteful. Hard to come back from that if you're town.
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Congratulations to the scum-team, it's rare to see such a splendid recovery from such a terrible Day 1.
I will echo Rhand's post above: had the town actually bothered to be thorough with its re-reads, it is entirely possible the game could have ended the other way. Also, there was a distinct lack of non-PBPA re-read. What happened to wagon analysis? Or to interaction analysis?
All in all, the mafia strongly deserved this victory.
What are you talking about? I reread Proph and Chris AND EVEN PBPA'd THEM and they were my strongest townreads.
I think wagon and interaction analysis would have been very brutal in trying to catch me this game. I bussed Wheat so hard even Wheat thought I was being spiteful. Hard to come back from that if you're town.
This is true. I tried to look at vote counts and interactions and it was so easy to incriminate a fellow townie using them (Az, Seppel, GJ all had mediocre Wheat interactions).
This is something to keep in mind though for my future town games, since seeing how easy it is to manipulate one of my most favorite tools is concerning.
Oh yeah, if that's one of your favorite tools your town game is massively flawed. Votes are easily manipulated if someone knows they are tools to be manipulated.
I could probably talk all day about scum philosophy, I have a lot of thoughts on the subject that I think are interesting. I feel as if people play scum very wrong most of the time, and I also think people look for the wrong things as well.
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I think wagon and interaction analysis would have been very brutal in trying to catch me this game. I bussed Wheat so hard even Wheat thought I was being spiteful. Hard to come back from that if you're town.
This is true. I tried to look at vote counts and interactions and it was so easy to incriminate a fellow townie using them (Az, Seppel, GJ all had mediocre Wheat interactions).
This is something to keep in mind though for my future town games, since seeing how easy it is to manipulate one of my most favorite tools is concerning.
See I thought you were town because depending on wagon analysys to come up with anything meaningful has proven to be flawed and you kept doing it and I just thought "Proph didn't learn a damn thing from the last game."
Seppel you read like a beautiful disaster this game. You had so many weird thoughts and you couldn't keep anything straight and it was just like "poor Seppel, he seems a bit drunk and I have a gun to his head and he doesn't even know it."
Legitimately after this game I do not know what you could do to earn a legitimate scum read from me. I might have to lose to you once just out of sheer fear of mislynching you.
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Mmhm, I'm hoping to restructure my town game since I relied on a bunch of interaction analysis to get me through Final Fantasy and that method of analysis was shot there. This game made me see vote analysis shot as well, the only difference is that WE were doing the manipulating.
Would love to hear your thoughts on scum philosophy! There were many areas in this game that I could have done better.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
The GJ way path to no lynching:
...not....13 hours.....earlier....
Start of the day, you also called him obvious scum. Now you won't lynch him.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
You knew what I meant.
Chris made a post that was almost word for word identical to this one towards me. I responded in kind mostly out of snarkiness.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Why are you bringing it up?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
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The GJ way path to no lynching:
A deadline has been set for Wednesday, December 30th.
This is longer than I would otherwise give because Christmas is living in there. If the game appears to be moving forward at that time (two weeks from now...) I will consider extending the deadline.
Please point out where you had interactions with Wheat Day 1. I did a quick skim of your posts and the only place where you interacted with Wheat are these questions:
I'll try to get to the Seppel read through tonight and then I'll cast my vote.
"GJ then starts to case Wheat despite not mentioning him for basically all of Day 1."
I also had:
This is a question to Sir Chris, and it should be clear I am town reading Wheat, and scum reading Chris at this stage. 564, I am challenging Sir Chris on his read on Wheat, and continue to do so here.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I just don't think GJ is scum at this stage, Taredas. I think he's said some stuff that looks bad but effort to me is more telling than not in end game scenarios. Scum 90% of the time are going to flounder at end game, where town will act with vigor. Also we can agree on Seppel. I think literally everyone can agree on Seppel (except maybe Proph?) and I think you're playing with fear right now, Taredas. Can't play with fear at end game.
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I want Taredas, Jobie, and GJ to vote me before proceeding with the meat of this day.
Partly because you asked, but mostly because you can't seem to keep your reads straight.
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(2) Seppel - Gentleman Johnny, Jobie
(1) Gentleman Johnny - Taredas
Not Voting: Jobie, Prophylaxis, Seppel, Sir Chris, Taredas
With 6 alive it's 4 to lynch.
A deadline has been set for Wednesday, December 30th.
EDIT: as pointed out, Seppel is not voting Seppel. Jobie is.
Summary of Seppel:
Starts off with the "I can read Azrael better than anyone else" statement which we all know this game disproves that theory. Has the activity comment which I thought sounded genuine on Day 1, but we had relatively little to go on at that stage, so I'm treating it as a null tell right now. Something I noticed now that I'm looking through his ISO is that Seppel had a pretty consistent track record of starting/joining wagons then rapidly hopping off them, which is what he did with Cythare, GJ, and then me. Note that he starts off scumreading GJ then shifts it later to "anti town but not indicative of scum".
Something that strikes me as odd is that sometimes it appears that Seppel has scintillating reads on Wheat, which I am not sure if they were buddies that Seppel would do that. First, Seppel goes:
He then labels Wheat as scum with me and Cythare, then he says "I have a townread on Wheat" all without reasoning. Trying to think if scum!Seppel would bounce a read back and forth like that.
And man Seppel shifts votes like crazy. Bunch of times onto ZDS and Iso.
This posts does ring true though. Don't think Seppel would invite pressure on him as scum?
Hard-lines against ZDS here and was a key component of getting him lynched.
DAY 2
His posts here indicate that he thought that ZDS flipped town, which I still have no idea how he came to that conclusion but his posts are consistent with that fact.
How does Seppel vote Wheat here after exclaiming for most of Day 1 that Wheat was town? GJ and Seppel, they both hopped onto the Wheat wagon despite them saying positive things about Wheat D1. This I feel like confirms either one of them as scum (not that we didn't know that already!) since I think it's a very logical scum thought process to make when you see your buddy be the counterwagon to the town lynch.
He calls Chris scum ("scumChris tilt!") but doesn't actually follow up on it? Then we start on the rereads which I actually really like, even on a reread. The Cythare one mindmelded with my Jobie/Cythare reread I did earlier, but assuming the scum knew that Wheat was going down anyways I'm not awarding it to him. I'm also unsure if Seppel/GJ were scum if Seppel would put a big "I DON'T KNOW" on his buddy like that.
Still like the "I think I just caught you" language from Seppel. Same thing with regards to Az as well. Has this post:
Which is still pretty townie though I don't know if Seppel can fake it. Pushing GJ to townie is though.
Then we get to Day 3/Day 4, where the content level of Seppel noticeably drops. The thing that bothers me is that he kept proclaiming Az as scum throughout Day 2 but never actually votes him Day 3, and the way that he tries to use that as a defense early on in Day 4 was pretty terrible. It feels like Seppel is trying to vie for Jobie as a mislynch and trying to protect his buddy GJ here, if they are both scum.
Voting pattern:
Sir Chris (RVS), Cythare (D1), GJ (d1), Prophylaxis (D1) Cyan (D1), ZDS (D1), Iso (D1)
Cyan (D2), Wheat (D2)
Conclusion: Seppel was strongest to me during Day 2, and having a look back on his posts during that time frame reminded me why I thought Seppel was town. Seppel's Day 1 was questionable and his interactions with Wheat are subpar at best. Also, him fitting on a team with GJ and Wheat makes sense, but I just want to know if he's capable of faking his Day 2 stuff. Like, if Tar's point about the SQUEEZE PLAY is true, then why has Seppel been angling for a Jobie lynch all this time? If they were scum together, then wouldn't it be smarter for them to aggressively bus (unless they need to keep Jobie as someone under suspicion or something?)
So yeah. This is what I'm working with right now. Would value input from Chris/Tar on Seppel.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
I mean Seppel appears to be banking on absurdism at this point. He literally 'mixed up' his sure town read twice this page and he acts like it's the most common thing in the world to do. It's just... so insane that I have to think it is scum hoping we believe only town would be so silly.
Also I understand your point Proph, but you assume optimal play there with your scenario. There is surely an optimal path to play this day if seppel is scum, but I am not sure if seppel is good enough to do it to be frank.
Probably going to be voting Seppel soon, unless I hear objections. I have given him every chance to say something of note and he just...doesn't seem to want to.
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Maybe I'm WIFOMing myself out, with the way Seppel has approached Today?
No objections on the vote; I don't think that I can get enough people to lynch GJ Today (you're townreading him, Jobie is, and Seppel is ambivalent) so I'm fine lynching Seppel and lynching GJ Tomorrow.
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Proph, do you even care about my points at all, or are you just going into tomorrow with a vote on me?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
##vote: Seppel
Going to take a shower and get something to eat, we should discuss GJ some more when I get back Proph, I think he's town!
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The GJ way path to no lynching:
The GJ way path to no lynching:
(4) Seppel - Gentleman Johnny, Jobie, Sir Chris, Prophylaxis
(1) Gentleman Johnny - Taredas
Not Voting: Seppel
You all circle around Seppel, put a gun to his back and march him to the gallows. Put his head through the noose, pull the lever, and--
"That's all, folks."
As Seppel AKA Grace, Vanilla Townie falls to his death, someone pulls out a gun and fires.
Jobie AKA Bubba, Vanilla Townie looks down at his chest and the gaping hole that's just been put in it. He turns.
Taredas AKA Scooter, Vanilla Townie drops next. His brains fly across the wood of the gallows, and his body topples to the ground.
Then it's just three.
"Aw sh--". The last words of many men, including Gentleman Johnny AKA Barnes, Vanilla Townie.
And then there were two. Just two mafiosos standing at the center of a town full of bodies. A ghost town.
"Huh," says Sir Chris AKA Robin, Mafia Roleblocker. "That was easier than I expected."
Prophylaxis AKA Susan, Mafia Goon just smiles, and the two of them lock eyes.
The game has ended in a mafia victory. Congrats to the mafia, all of whom played a great game.
Spectator thread here: http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/cvAqrNu2b6M
All hail Sir Chris?
I am not feeling well, flu has been hitting me hard this week, but I'll get around to some post game notes.
1. I showed genuine frustration day 1 when I was being bussed by both of my buddies, I did not appreciate that much
2. I think Wheat wanted to murder me in the night 1 scum trap.
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I go into a zone when I think like town as scum to the best of my ability. So my town read of Iso this game was very much based on a "genuine read" that only after I said it I realized... I couldn't say why I had the read while being fair to the other game. Do I make that slip as town? I don't know, actually. Maybe if I don't know Iso is town already I don't go to that well, hard to say.
Also this spec chat is predicting our downfall day one yesss.
I saw some questions about how I handled myself this game in spec and peppered into this game... I don't know how to play as scum but to win the game. I just don't know how to do anything other than to try to win. Night 1 in this game was the first time in awhile I felt bad playing mafia because it was like 'even if we win I'll hate it' and it's like... I don't know. I view scum's job is to be liars and manipulate and do whatever it takes within the bounds of the game to win, and that includes bussing. I didn't do anything this game other than try to win, so idk.
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It's definitely frustrating getting bussed when you feel like it's not the right play, but if your teammates disagree with you, that's their perogative.
*scans over spec thread*
Hmm. Cyan's cop shot was on me. If that hadn't been redirected, that would have been a pretty huge deal, too.
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I was thinking about putting in notes about my reactions to some stuff and posting it to the post game later, but I got lazy and never followed up on it.
When I got my role PM and in the first.. couple of weeks of Day 1 I thought we were toast. The town seemed to be firing in all cylinders and my scum game was underperforming - every post I made just sounded artificial. All I wanted to do was to make it up for my team and actually put some real effort in, which led to the dreadnought that somehow got me out of the lynch. My mindset going into it was "well, even if this gets me lynched, I know I put in the most effort possible to prevent it, so I could say that I participated this game. If it gets me out of alive, then.. yay!"
That post really gave me a "level up" in that I could post without constantly worrying if I goofed up or something. I thought my posts from there to.. nearly end of the game (where I just wanted to get the game over with) were decent, even if obviously crafted.
After that and Day 1, I was just pretty much headbanging at how the town constantly devoured itself. It was probably better play to lynch Seppel during Day 2 and get Wheat Day 3, but I thought I needed to dig in my heels and actually commit to lynching the person that I argued for, hence me whiteknighting Seppel and ensuring the Wheat lynch. I was a bit spooked at Cyan calling me scum D2, but I knew that once he saw the Wheat flip then he would massively re-evaluate.
I was also a bit spooked coming into Day 3 with Jobie and Az gunning for me but I had massive town cred at that point, and all I needed to do was try and find a way to attack Azrael genuinely.
Day 4 I wanted to imitate the endgame of Famous Historical Figures (the ideal way an endgame SHOULD be played, IMO) so I spent a bunch of time rereading the game and "letting the posts dictate my reads". I was kind of blatantly scummy with how I completely erased my town reads of GJ and Seppel, but hey - if you're a townie then it's on you to re-evaluate and re-examine your previous townreads. I was kind of phoning it in at that point but our victory was certain, so it didn't matter.
I'm pretty sure I have more thoughts about this game that I'll post when I get to them but this was a immensely enjoyable game, despite me hating rolling scum. I think that this game was really a level up moment for me for my scum play. I don't know if it'll work again in the future, though, since this game has huge meta issues for me. I still wouldn't like to roll scum again, though - deceiving other players was painful and caused me to think "oh my god why is this town so bad".
My scum game also makes me a bit scared as town, as well, since I pulled a bunch of tricks that I highly doubt my town game will figure out. Given that my town game is kind of in a state of flux after Final Fantasy, this is probably one of my last games where I'll use my old tools. I'll probably need to examine my scumhunting strategies to better cope with the tricks scum can do currently.
I would welcome any feedback/suggestions on my scum game. It's something that I do want to improve, since I felt like I was mostly coasting on Chris + using dirty bussing tricks to get through.
And then Day 2. I knew Proph was scum. I ******* completely knew it. And then Taredas comes along, with his giant letters Proph is town bull***** blah blah blah and all of his meta evidence, so of course I unvoted and moved on. If Taredas doesn't chime in there, I am positive that Proph gets annihilated, and I don't think WG ever escapes.
I know I'm going to take alot of flack for the town losing this game, and I certainly deserve a fair bit of blame, but I think I'm just going to blame the DCIII/Taredas slot instead.
So talk to me about that Thanksgiving post, Sir Chris. Man was I scathingly pissed when I found out you were scum. But then Ged told me that you apologized a bunch, so I calmed down. But still, shame on you. :/
I really, really meant that. OoG comments like that are just ignored usually, and I tend to ignore them. Also I really was cooking and I really was putting it off to play mafia. I was just mafia instead of town.
Also I'd blame Iso personally. His mass claim ruined this game for town.
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I'm not trying to take away from what was an amazing performance on your part AFTER Day 1. You deserved the win that you got once you got out of being under pressure, there is no denying that.
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It was probably difficult since, as you said, everyone's games being good makes it hard to fully trust anyone. If the town tried to form a townbloc/cluster of townreads sometime during Day 2 or something, then I think the game would be much harder for us to win.
I think you did a great job being transparently town, and that's honestly 50% of what a townie needs to do. It was unfortunate that you townread both of us, but generally you can count on your other fellow townies to pick up your pieces. Mafia is a team game, after all - it's very rare for one person to be universally townread as well as immediately catch all the scum.
I still don't understand why the mylo town wrote Chris off as town to the point that he wasn't even reread 'to be sure', apart from Taredas.
I shouldn't have protected Cyan the Night I died I guess. I had realized that Chris was scum during Night.
ZDS me being scum seems to end badly for you. We really must find a way for you to survive day one unharmed when I am in the game.
I think wagon and interaction analysis would have been very brutal in trying to catch me this game. I bussed Wheat so hard even Wheat thought I was being spiteful. Hard to come back from that if you're town.
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This game was over on Day 2 when we didn't lynch me. I openly stated that I would never lynch Chris or Proph.
I was strongly townreading GJ until the absolutely bizarre attack on me. It literally made no sense. And he was town.
And my other townies were Jobie and Taredas, who just weren't posting.
The only people attacking me for the NL plan were MY FELLOW TOWNIES. AND CHRIS WOULDN'T HAVE DIED. WHAT THE HELL PEOPLE. NL WAS THE BEST OPTION.
Okay, I guess it's not entirely my fault we lost.
What are you talking about? I reread Proph and Chris AND EVEN PBPA'd THEM and they were my strongest townreads.
This is something to keep in mind though for my future town games, since seeing how easy it is to manipulate one of my most favorite tools is concerning.
I could probably talk all day about scum philosophy, I have a lot of thoughts on the subject that I think are interesting. I feel as if people play scum very wrong most of the time, and I also think people look for the wrong things as well.
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Legitimately after this game I do not know what you could do to earn a legitimate scum read from me. I might have to lose to you once just out of sheer fear of mislynching you.
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Would love to hear your thoughts on scum philosophy! There were many areas in this game that I could have done better.