I am going to go re-read Azrael, but for the record I can give orders to whoever I want this game because I am me.
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Maybe you can, but you don´t.
I just reread 5 pages of your posts, and you address people with ´please´ and/or question marks.
Giving orders like that is a real tone change, which is well noted.
I'm comfortable on my town read of Az and Cyan, so I wanted Az to do as Cyan asked so we could move on. I tend to take liberties with people I think are town. Pretty sure I did similar to Iso earlier.
So you don't think az is neutral, whose on the team besides me, Rhand?
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We have next to no information on this game, there is no way you could have PoE'd reliably. So while you might do this as town in some games, you can't be doing this as town THIS game.
Also.
This might be the only honest thing you've said all game, but even the way you phrase it just sounds non-town. Instead of being like 'both of them seem scummy enough to warrant lynching and flip scum', you literally just manage to convey scumminess with your actual word choice. It is honestly like you are scum and not even trying. If this were some other site I would seriously think you were a Jester.
Too little; too late. Day late; dollar short. Insert similar cliche here.
*turns head to side quizzically, as though looking at some new and unique species recently discovered in the Amazon rainforest*
I'm considering posting a series of made-up nonsense words, just as an experiment, then sit back and watch you convince yourself that somehow my posting the word "gobbledebloopemshireballs!" somehow comes from a scum mindset.
The problem going around, I think, is a lack of empathy. We've had a lot of people paying lip service to the need to examine the pro-town rationales and motivations for an action, but invariably, the first instinct from most of the players this game has been to look for the scum explanation first.
This is why Chris' approach to the game, which I endorse and fully approve of, tends to be so much more successful.
If you look at each players' post with an unbiased eye, looking with equal or greater eagerness to find townie tells as scum tells, you are much less likely to deceive yourself misreading behaviors that are null, meta-explainable, or actually townish in nature. It's also simpler because fewer players intentionally mine false townie tells, and 75% of the players are town to begin with, so you're more likely to pick up a greater quantity of tells and a greater volume of information by actively searching out townie tells, than you are if you are looking *only* for things that *might* indicate a scum mindset.
Under Cyan's view of the world, this paragraph is likely to be filed away as scum Azrael lecturing the town to suit his own nefarious purposes and dismisss the case against him.
Under a more nuanced view, you might be able to understand that I'm simply baffled at your confirmatory bias, complete inability to find my town tells (which ARE there for the finding), and honestly trying to shine some light on why your town methods have been, by your own admission, not meeting your expectations of late.
Under that same form of analysis as set out above, I've long since stated that I'm confident in clearing the majority of the town's players. Tradtionally, my POE misses 1 scum who is too smart for me, but catches 2/3 of the scum team pretty reliably. From there, the rest of the players usually mop up whoever I missed. In this game, while I've not had the time to keep my analysis as rapid or as rigorous as is typical for me in olden times, for reasons I've already explained multiple times, I'm reasonably confident that Wheat and Seppel are the two caught scum, and the last guy we can figure out before too much longer.
Under best practices, I should also be PBPAing Wheat and Seppel individually and setting out a thorough case, but it's just not likely to be in the cards under my current time constraints to squeeze in another two PBPAs today, on top of what I've already completed in the full-game reread and individual ISOs.
But by the same token, you might also want to consider that another reason your methodology has been less reliable of late is a lack of accurate and thorough PBPAing. There was a time when no one on this site got lynched without a 2000-word dreadnought justifying the case. And that's still the gold standard - it's just not commonly done so much anymore. But it should be. If you did, I'm pretty sure you'd have a better shot at reading me than you do by going off your snap impressions of me as you read the thread for the first time.
I am starting to grow concerned that Rhand is bringing out the worst in Cyan. Funny how they seem to be so in sync and Rhand is leading Cyan away from my scum reads.
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I am going to go to the store and then I am going to do a full re-read of Azrael and post my findings.
Btw Cyan I think you crave excitement in mafia too much. You literally let the stall in the day get inside your head and you like needed to do something different just to do it different. First it was wheat and then it was azrael. You crave change way too much.
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@Azrael: Uh huh. I've never been good at PBPAs, because I have always suffered from confirmation bias. I am well aware of this. And so are you, I'm pretty sure? But sure, I'll re-read you. I don't really know what you expect me to find.
@Sir Chris: Meh. That is all part of why I am leaving. No one ever wants to act anymore, and the game itself is..just stale. From in-game behavior, to game-designs themselves. Honestly, I just feel like a product from a forgotten time, when things were just, well..better(in my mind)..but yeah mostly just more interesting.
Also, Rhand isn't leading me anywhere, I've been vocally stating that Azrael is scum since yesterday. If anyone is leading someone somewhere there, I am responsible.
@WG: Why are you making such a big deal out of Az claiming 1-shot Vig? Especially now that he told us that he got RBed anyway. Like..scum can false-claim things, you know? If Az is neutral scum, his claim is perfectly reasonable. If he is mafia and knew that this was going to be low power game, then he could have thought his claim was believable. You act like no scum has ever claimed a role that wasn't real. I don't get it.
It occurs to me that we might have had trouble getting a lynch on WG and Seppel because they really are BOTH scum, but then like..why isn't WG jumping on this Az train with all possible ferocity? It's just the opposite. Everything WG does just reinforces my belief that he is town. If he had just voted Az without making a big deal out of it, Az would be L-1 and someone would lynch him, and most likely, WG would look none the worse for wear.
I like Wheat's "dammit, NO" (missing text "DON'T LYNCH OUR ROLEBLOCKER!!")
This is literally the first thing Wheat has become impassioned about. In a game that he's "burned out" in. He suddenly cares about specifically not lynching Az? Uh huh.
...I cased Wheat, (speaking of I forgot his questions a while back). There is likely 2-3 scum in the cluster of Cythare/Wheat/Seppel/Chris. Of the three vanillas (myself included), both Proph and Taredas are likely town I am waiting to see a response, but I would lynch Seppel over no-lynching. Cythare doesn't have much of a case to go with him, but he was on vacation until yesterday.
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I like Wheat's "dammit, NO" (missing text "DON'T LYNCH OUR ROLEBLOCKER!!")
This is literally the first thing Wheat has become impassioned about. In a game that he's "burned out" in. He suddenly cares about specifically not lynching Az? Uh huh.
This makes a depressing amount of sense, but..it doesn't explain why no one was willing to lynch YOU today.
Like. It stands to reason that, if WG didn't get lynched because he is scum, as soon as the wagon on you developed it should have gone through very quickly. The only reason it wouldn't have is if you are ALSO scum. I don't think you thought this through very well, sir.
I also need to go back and make sure I didn't just super tunnel Az.
But on the plus side, I'm more confident than I will ever be that Seppel is indeed scum. Far more certain than I am that Az is. Unvote, Vote Seppel This is the best vote, and this should be a pretty clear explanation of why.
Or am I just thinking too deeply into this? Like..there have to be some connotations and permutations involved in WG being scum and the Seppel wagon developing literally as a counterwagon, right?
I don't see why you think my answer would be anything other than yes, considering my want to lynch Wheat is part of the reason the day has been kept going.
A deadline has been set for Tuesday, December 1st at 5pm CST.
I am very close to replacing Cythare given their consistent need for prodding and minimal content when not in need of prodding. While I will not be pulling the trigger there yet, if you are someone following the game and do not have access to spec chat, PM me if you wish to be on deck to replace.
I'll be hammering Seppel. Anything needs discussion before I do?
Do we want to wait for Cythare/a possible replacement?
(I actually don't see the point in waiting as Cythare is not likely to die at Night)
Come on Seppel, really? Our abilities being 1-shot has been mentioned so many times in the thread now. Like..numerous, numerous times.
These are the moments that plague me as town. If Seppel being truthful here? If he is, this is a huge town point for him. Especially the 'Iso you ******** part', because this is the dawning realization where he gets exactly how much the mass-claim screwed the town over. But Seppel is unquestionably capable of orchestrating that whole bit just to make himself look better. :/
This is just all so complicated and involved. I'm trying to play through all of the situations in my head. The various combinations of WG/Seppel/AZ and their perspective alignments. It's all just such a mess. Seppel's point about Wheat finally getting excited about something is an incredibly relevant one. But if Seppel gets WG lynched here, and WG flips scum, it would definitely result in Az also getting lynched. Is this going to be enough to carry Seppel all the way through the rest of the game if he is their buddy? Have I just been wrong about him all along?
Let's say I have been wrong about Seppel(and about WG..and basically everything unfortunately), and the scum team is Azrael/WG/X. Hell, the Azrael part doesn't even really matter. The WG part is the important part. If this is the case, why did the Seppel lynch not get pushed through? He was at L-2 for what seemed like eternity. The people voting Seppel were first :(4) Seppel - Cyan, Taredas, Rhand, Wheat_Grinder and then:(4) Seppel - Cyan, Rhand, Wheat_Grinder, Sir Chris. So only Taredas and Sir Chris changed on the wagon here. At any moment, if one of the other scum added their vote, it would have created enough momentum for someone to hammer and the day to end. Like..that is simply how things go. Isn't it? Or is this just another antiquated notion of mine?
Especially as the day dragged on. I feel like we have to conclude that the scenario where WG is scum but Seppel is not simply does not make sense. The same should hold true with both being town. The scum should have not problem trading one town wagon for another. If other people disagree, I would really like to hear it.
In *my* mind, this means that WG is NOT scum, and that Seppel IS, and that the scum did not want to relinquish a town wagon(WG) to go to a scum one(Seppel). I admit that it is also possible that they did not want to go from a scum wagon(WG) to ANOTHER scum wagon(Seppel) as well, but it's hard to see Seppel just super bussing WG right now then, because he is fully committing to trying to ride out the entire rest of the game as the last scum, which seems like as a pretty unlikely premise.
Let's first carry this logic further by looking at the people that were voting WG at the high point of his wagon: (5) Wheat_Grinder - Cyan, Prophylaxis, Seppel, Gentleman Johnny, Sir Chris. SC maintains that he still thinks WG is scum. So does Proph. So does GJ. They haven't waivered in this conviction the entire day. So if WG is town and Seppel is scum, one of these 3, plus some unknown party, should be scum with Seppel.
If WG *IS* scum, then..I honestly have no idea whatsoever what is going on. But this also means that AZ is very likely to be mafia too, and Seppel could easily STILL be mafia.
To me, this all still just leads back to Seppel overwhelmingly being the correct lynch for today. No matter how I look at things, no matter how I try to find someone else to lynch, it just comes back to Seppel. Even if we're wrong, it gives it so much information that it's still worth it.
Can we please just do this already. I have tried to look at other people. I have done everything. It's Seppel. It has to be.
I just got around to starting my Az read, but I'd like night to take place over thanksgiving if possible so I'll just point out a couple observations of mine:
Also, cyan is totally town. I can say this with full confidence cause his scum game is utter trash. Don't worry guys, totally got this covered.
I am noting this because this glib post is an early indication to me that Azrawl respects Cyan's scum game a great deal, and I think it informs on his paranoia of Cyan.
Chris could be something other than vanilla, and just have no flavor.
See this is the type of post that I think demonstrates a town mindset. Because really there's no good reason to say this. If I had been a power role with no flavor it would have been the pro town thing to not stir this pot. This feels like someone who just wants to poke at Iso by correcting his logic, which I don't find scummy.
A) Most scum aren't nearly as attentive to those issues, Iso.
B) In a basic setup, we're revealing all the roles the scum need to screw with, quite likely nullifying at least 2-3 power role activations, resulting in losing several more bodies that we would otherwise. I'm very skeptical that revealing basic roles is going to give you the ability to pick out scum.
This is exactly what appears to be happening, by the way. I guess it doesn't preclude scum to be correct on this issue, but I like the fact that Azrael saw the problem ahead of time and tried to ward it off.
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Your big paragraph about why Seppel's lynch not being pushed through is easily answerable with 'Wheat is scum too.' Seppel/Wheat/x
(I was not paranoid of Rhand at all until he was like "sure az!" What the hell Rhand)
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It's okay we are lynching Seppel now anyway. Thank God.
Also, cyan is totally town. I can say this with full confidence cause his scum game is utter trash. Don't worry guys, totally got this covered.
Where did this come from, CT3? Nice to see that Az can keep his story straight. But how does this reflect Az 'respecting my scum game'?
This is exactly what appears to be happening, by the way. I guess it doesn't preclude scum to be correct on this issue, but I like the fact that Azrael saw the problem ahead of time and tried to ward it off.
Also I admit I fall in love with seemingly bad habits. I like to use WIFOM and meta to read players a lot. I believe I am very skilled at piercing through wifom to understand people's motives, and the same for meta. It is, as the kids say, -EV to try to prevent the mass claim if you were scum.
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This is why I really hate that you can't refresh the whole thread in the same window before posting on this site..ergh. So much double-posting.
Your big paragraph about why Seppel's lynch not being pushed through is easily answerable with 'Wheat is scum too.' Seppel/Wheat/x
(I was not paranoid of Rhand at all until he was like "sure az!" What the hell Rhand)
This is true, and I feel like I addressed this, but maybe I deleted that part. I revise my posts alot before finally submitting them. Either way, we should be lynching Seppel. So, you know, feel free to vote him. Who knows how long we'll be in Twlight and can keep musing about this stuff anyway.
Anyway. This would certainly explain why we were basically stuck between 2 wagons. It would make it difficult to find the final scum too. We can work on that tomorrow. I'll just be happy to get this day in the bags.
Also I admit I fall in love with seemingly bad habits. I like to use WIFOM and meta to read players a lot. I believe I am very skilled at piercing through wifom to understand people's motives, and the same for meta. It is, as the kids say, -EV to try to prevent the mass claim if you were scum.
Wait so..he called my scum game trash THIS GAME, and the later talked about how great my scum game is and you don't see any problem with this?
For example, I am able to read his comment about your game being trash and know he is was joking and saying the opposite.
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If Rhand comes in to hammer me, the game's in your hands. I absolve myself of any trainwreck that happens after my lynch. I've already posted everything that needs to be posted to find the scum.
Final recap:
Cyan
DCIII/Taredas
Sir Chris
Prophylaxis
Rhand
Gentleman Johnny
Cythare
Azrael
Wheat_Grinder
GJ goes up to leaning town because he's still participating and his posts are (dare I say it) good.
Cythare goes down to gray for doing uck all nothing.
N2: Rhand dies while protecting Cyan (or they block Cyan + kill Rhand)
D3: Lynch Wheat
N3: Cyan dies (or Rhand if still alive)
D4: Lynch Azrael
N4: Taredas dies
We endgame with:
1. Sir Chris
2. Prophylaxis
3. Cythare
4. Gentleman Johnny
NL if you want Proph or Chris to pointlessly die.
Cythare and GJ duke it out. GJ probably wins due to posting more. We find out if we've won.
If Rhand comes in to hammer me, the game's in your hands. I absolve myself of any trainwreck that happens after my lynch. I've already posted everything that needs to be posted to find the scum.
Final recap:
Cyan
DCIII/Taredas
Sir Chris
Prophylaxis
Rhand
Gentleman Johnny
Cythare
Azrael
Wheat_Grinder
GJ goes up to leaning town because he's still participating and his posts are (dare I say it) good.
Cythare goes down to gray for doing uck all nothing.
N2: Rhand dies while protecting Cyan (or they block Cyan + kill Rhand)
D3: Lynch Wheat
N3: Cyan dies (or Rhand if still alive)
D4: Lynch Azrael
N4: Taredas dies
We endgame with:
1. Sir Chris
2. Prophylaxis
3. Cythare
4. Gentleman Johnny
NL if you want Proph or Chris to pointlessly die.
Cythare and GJ duke it out. GJ probably wins due to posting more. We find out if we've won.
HAPPY T-GIVING!
This feels like such a town post. I am so flaky. I just hate being wrong
But it's just like..why are you alive if WG is scum and you are town? It makes no sense. The scum team would have to be like exactly WG, Azrael, Cythare. And I feel like that is such a narrow line, and you simply being scum is more like. If you are town..I am sorry, I am going to have to go with the odds here.
@Sir Chris: Maybe it was sarcastic, except for the part where he's spent the entire rest of the game since then calling me scum without backing it up whatsoever.
Ugh, I just feel so helpless about this lynch happening.
If we're not going to lynch Wheat, then I'm fine with lynching Azrael. He's just seeming to intentionally ignore the rest of my questions and has had a very opportunistic hop onto Seppel, citing the "mid-game phase" and a post that I thought showed strong townie tells from Seppel as a "scum post". But in no way we should lynch Seppel. His last post is a very genuine "I'm leaving, here are my reads and what we should do" post.
Unvote ; Vote : Azrael
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Can you go into more detail about his anti-town nature? I thought his attacks on Wheat day one was super strong.
How were Az's D1 Wheat attacks strong in any way? The only thing I remember was Az voting Wheat and quoting a bunch of posts.
@Tar: Can you answer my question about GJ? And can you tell me more about why you dislike Seppel's comments on Wheat? I personally found Seppel's Wheat case quite strong.
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Okay first off please unvote az so no one hammers so I feel comfortable casing.
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Okay first before I continue my reading of Az I have to say this: stop worrying about everything else. Stop worrying about what random people who aren't in the moment think. They don't matter. People are always going to judge right or wrong. Like that shouldn't even be in your head. Focus on just THE GAME. Outside influence and boredom is like, really screwing you up. Also I am supposed to be preparing dishes for thanksgiving tomorrow instead I am going to try to save the game day from everyone's indecision and/or scum manipulation so I am going to be honest I am not happy right now because I am obligated to do this and probably am going to be up until like 5 AM cooking because I will have played mafia for hours instead of enjoying a scum lynch scene.
BRB, reading.
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Okay first before I continue my reading of Az I have to say this: stop worrying about everything else. Stop worrying about what random people who aren't in the moment think. They don't matter. People are always going to judge right or wrong. Like that shouldn't even be in your head. Focus on just THE GAME. Outside influence and boredom is like, really screwing you up. Also I am supposed to be preparing dishes for thanksgiving tomorrow instead I am going to try to save the game day from everyone's indecision and/or scum manipulation so I am going to be honest I am not happy right now because I am obligated to do this and probably am going to be up until like 5 AM cooking because I will have played mafia for hours instead of enjoying a scum lynch scene.
BRB, reading.
So just as a personal aside, if you turn out to be scum, I will lose all respect for you for faking an out of game plea like this. Some lines are just not acceptable to cross. I don't think that is what is happening. Just..fair warning.
And that stuff IS in my head, especially in a game like this. That is just who I am. I have been playing Mafia on this site for 11 years now. Like...that is a long goddamned time. I can't help but be emotionally vested in it. Plus I take alot of flack for tunneling and blah blah blah. It gets to you after awhile. And we're already down one lynch, and the whole town is pretty much Vanilla. We're on a pretty thin wire here. I really want to get this right.
Anyway I'm looking at Az's posts, notating things that interest me.
Scum Chris totally puts off cooking to play a game of mafia too, Cyan. My dedication is without question as either alignment, please always read OoG comments by me as null, that is a Law of the Land where I am from and I would be uncomfortable with anyone thinking "chris is town because he mentioned a holiday tomorrow" as that's dirty. My town game doesn't need cheap points like that.
I understand your emotions though. I've been there. There are certain games I just had to have. Maybe I'll tell you some stories after the game.
(still reading)
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Okay first off, credentials. I try not to do this type of stuff because it's lame but I am a better town finder than anyone else in this game when I am at my peak. There are different types of Chris. Not feeling well Chris (The Wall, the start of this game), neutral Chris (Castlevania/XKCD) and Hyped Chris (Predator, this game more recently) I break this down because I am just going to remind everyone that I literally 100% nailed the game in Predator night 1 and the only reason it didn't end worse for scum was because a scum read made an insanely good fake flavor claim.
Okay, my point: I'm better than the rest of you at town clearing people. I believe this with my whole heart. You didn't listen day one with ZDS and he died. So this time I am not asking, I am telling: we're not lynching Azrael. I will bury you all in the deepest levels of hell itself before I allow any harm to come to this man.
Okay so I have not played with Az before and I have barely looked at other games of his, so I don't have a real good feel for his meta. A lot of people are telling me “this fits within Az's scum meta” but because these people are not me I am assuming they are using meta incorrectly because almost everyone I have seen in the year and a half I have been on this site uses meta incorrectly. And you use it to lynch strong as hell players. I had to watch in xkcd as the town buried Iso for reasons that were BEYOND me. So your meta arguments can just go in a fire somewhere.
While I am at it both Cyan and Az are doing the MTG TOWN CLASSIX oftwo strong players and deciding to have a dick measuring contest over who can attack the other the most for inane reasons. And you know what? That's a reason I am reading Az as town! Scum are just BETTER on this site than some of the stuff he has said about Cyan:
His recent maneuvers strike me as another instance where he's decided to take a stance for strategic reasons, not for organic reasons. I don't know if he's trying to bus for credit or just to avoid responsibility, but I don't much care for his rationale for abandoning the wagon and the rationales for seizing onto his new targets.
No Az, he was fine, you're just assigning emotions and sneakiness to genuine thought. Hey Cyan, remember that feeling you openly express about not liking to be town? How you doubt yourself and how things confuse you. Now imagine for a moment everyone feels that way. Imagine that people actually respect you SO MUCH that every little thing you do is put under a microscope because your scum play in the past has made them doubt their ability to play the game. In fact, think about how you think about me. How a sentence can make you super paranoid. How you imagine that a random comment is actually something sinister. This is how many others view you Cyan! Do you know how hard it would be for a scum to fake that level of paranoia? Scum often are too LENIENT on town, they show too much mercy.. Many of Az's posts in your direction are not so much a “bad case” against you as much as paranoid mutterings of a mad man who appears to have seen a ghost. He has seen your scum game and he is AFRAID of you.
He calls ZDS town (I naturally like this because I agreed with it, but admittedly can be faked and then says this about Cyan when ZDS says he thinks Cyan is genuine:
I would read that player much as I am now - tentatively and hesitantly, and seeking a baseline to compare their meta to before committing to a lynch.
See this satisfies both things I discussed earlier. Bad meta reliance and respect. He respects Cyan enough to be extremely wary of him. This has been a PILLAR of his Cyan read that bleeds through. He has been consistent this game in how scared he is of Cyan.
Here, this game day, I asked Az to let Cyan go. Note Cyan isn't in his top 3 scum reads right now and he is heavily town reading me. It would have been SO EASY to back down from me and if his paranoia was fake he could have just subsided just a little. He doesn't though. He firmly rejects my plea with this post:
[
I may be a little jaded as to that point. In Crosstown 3, both of us did very similar, very manipulative things. If it were someone besides Cyan, I'd be with you on that. With him, I've got too much respect for his scum game to put it past him to fake those reactions.
Anyone but you, Cyan. You are the only exception. He had a chance to fall in line, to be accepted into my warm embrace but he just can't do it. Even though he later admits my methodology is very strong:
The problem going around, I think, is a lack of empathy. We've had a lot of people paying lip service to the need to examine the pro-town rationales and motivations for an action, but invariably, the first instinct from most of the players this game has been to look for the scum explanation first.
This is why Chris' approach to the game, which I endorse and fully approve of, tends to be so much more successful.
Look at that quote. He clearly, dare I say it, admires the way I go about figuring out the game. And yet that admiration is blocked by sheer unbridled FEAR of your scum game, Cyan. In his mind he knows I am good at what I do, but when I offer him my perspective he has to reject me. He just can't give into my perspective. He has seen the horrors you have inflicted onto towns. He doesn't want that to befall THIS game. He has people he thinks are scummier, he doesn't want to think of you in that light, but you're scary to him. He isn't thinking perfectly straight. He has been consistent with that this game, as far as I can tell. He has never wavered from his fear of you. He has never been perfectly comfortable with you. That type of paranoia is hard as hell to fake.
I am going to note, because it is important, I have chosen to directly attack one of your main problems with him instead of discussing the interactions I think that seal the deal. There are a host of other things, Cyan, and if you are unconvinced from this post I will continue. You, and ironically Azrael, lack empathy for one another. His fear of you is plain to see. It imposes itself freely upon his actions, making him look a fool. Scum lean towards the calm, not the comically foolish, Cyan.
Cease this madness.
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I'll be hammering Seppel. Anything needs discussion before I do?
Do we want to wait for Cythare/a possible replacement?
(I actually don't see the point in waiting as Cythare is not likely to die at Night)
Yeah, I see a thing or two that needs discussion.
Namely, my redacted thoughts on you from 1259.
And those are kind of important at this point, because the main thing I've been redacting is that you're *NOT* a townread anymore. Quite the opposite, in fact - you've been one of my two strongest scumreads ever since 1084, and are now my strongest scumread by a large margin.
@Taredas: Wheat did explain his vote unprompted in his next post.
Your GJ case is based on 2 small pieces of meta.
And I feel like you cased both only to give yourself persmission to keep thinking Chris is scum.
In your shoes after that post, I would be voting Chris, not Wheat.
You haven't adressed Seppel's weird double Wheat vote. Do you think that fits town!Seppel then?
See, my immediate reaction to this post was "I'd better rethink my setupgaming, because it's wrong - you *KNOW* my alignment and don't *care*". That's a reaction I've learned to trust - it caught dC in Redux Mirror and KK in WitchHunt.
More importantly, even setting aside gut reaction, I have trouble seeing this post come from a town mindset. First, if you were actually town who thought I was town, I don't think you'd just dismiss my attack on GJ with "based on two small pieces of meta" - you'd try to explain why I was wrong, or why my case was inconclusive.. And I don't see how "permission to keep thinking Sir Chris is scum" makes any sense from a town mindset provided that you had actually noticed that I called Sir Chris likely town in that post, and *ESPECIALLY* not if you actually thought I was misguided town. I mean, if you actually thought I was misguided town, what does that comment *do*? It can't be showing suspicion of me, because you just said you thought I was misguided town; it can't be trying to get me to reconsider my reads Most importantly, I definitely don't see why you would be voting Sir Chris in my shoes *when I had just explained why I wasn't voting Sir Chris* - I mean, why would I be voting a player who I had just said was more likely town than not?
Makes perfect sense if you're scum taking a potshot at me without committing to the attack, though!
@Taredas: you wrote that for Chris to be scum, his buddies have to be exactly GJ and Wheat and then you proceed to case those two, dropping your earlier Seppel read completely. Your premise for casing GJ seemed to be that he had to be scum, making you believe that two minor meta tells are a lot bigger than they actually are.
I think it makes you misguided town and not scum.
@Taredas: If that post sounded hostile, that was not the intention. It really felt to me that you were casing those 2 players because your Chris read pointed you there. Even if you decided Chris was more likely town, I think you somehow convinced yourself that you had to look into them because of Chris. Or that´s how it came across to me anyhow.
Your mindset was inquiring and solving, which makes me htink you´re town on the wrong track rather than scum (it´s ofc also possible I´m the one on the wrong track lol)
The statement about Chris is about how he demanded from Azrael to react. He feels like he can give him orders. Which screams buddies to me.
@Wheat: your question was answered before you asked it. Cyan has explained multiple times how he thinks Az is anti-town with that claim.
unvote, vote Azrael
Uh, really? I don't understand how you could possibly think that I was an inquisitive townie who looked over Sir Chris and concluded that he was more likely town than not and *still* thought that in my shoes you would be voting Sir Chris over Wheat. Unsure about Sir Chris being town, yes (since that was my *actual* conclusion - "I think he's more likely town than not but can't rule him out because I can't rule out the scumteam he fits in - both GJ and Wheat are independently scumreads"), but voting him? The only reason I could see is if you had *missed* that I came to the conclusion that Sir Chris was more likely town than not - and that can't be it, because if that was the case you would have said that by now.
Again, makes perfect sense if you're scum trying to avoid a fight by backing off your previous faked suspicion, though!
(For the record: I *hadn't* looked very closely at Wheat at that time and was running on D1 impression plus recent posts and memories of his past games (notably Majora's Mask), and I actually dug into *Sir Chris* because of *Johnny* rather than the other way around - SC and GJ walled at each other a fair bit late D1, and I thought GJ and SC were likely scum independently but that kind of walling usually *isn't* scum-on-scum [the only time I've seen it from scumbuddies is WWE] so either this was an unusual case or I was wrong on at least one of GJ/SC. So I checked.)
---
Scum!Rhand means my other strong scumread is wrong, because Rhand is not scum with Az - even if the scumteam is all Goons, I don't think 1-Shot Cop and Redirector can be the only two town power roles balancewise. Wasn't quite as sure about Az as I acted in 1259 anyways - Az would be a leanscum read in a vacuum, but I played it more certain than I actually was, partially because I'm me and partially not to tip off Rhand and knock him onto the defense before I was sure - reading defensive tone is my biggest weakness and I already botched that once this game (see: GJ).
I'm pretty sure scum!Rhand means the scumteam is {Rhand, Wheat, (GJ/Cythare}), leaning towards Cythare over GJ parrtially because Cythare's disappearance reminds me of me in Gatecrash but mostly because GJ's responses to Rhand in 239/352 - those two posts look like a townie going "what, what?". (That would mean Rhand was dismissing my attack on a townie, but that's possible?) Rhand/Wheat makes a bunch of sense in general - Rhand's been on basically all the Wheat counterwagons and Wheat's been pretty consistent in thinking that all of the power roles are scum.
(Aside: I'm finally comfortable clearing Sir Chris after 1305. That's an incredibly unusual stance to take, much less strongly argue against it with one of the two players you're calling town-on-town close to lynch - even taking town points into account, I don't see why Sir Chris would do that as scum.)
I went back and re-read all of Az's posts. And I hated them...at first, anyway. Just like I did before. I hated the ones at the beginning, and through the Proph wagon, and through his arguing with me, and through his claim. But after that, they started to get better and he started to sound more and more solid. The language sounded stronger and more confident and more..correct.
I am still very, very bothered by the fact that he just showed up late today and voted Seppel out of nowhere. This is incredibly anti-town behavior, and frankly, I am pretty sure Az is going to be in the end-game and I won't actually be surprised if he flips scum. But re-reading him has shaken my belief enough that I'm willing to let it go, for now anyway, and to see what happens later.
@Taredas: Voting Rhand right now seems pretty bad, especially based on just a couple of posts. If he's scum, this should work itself out in a day or two, and we really, really need to resolve the mess that is WG/Seppel first. That is a morass that has so much information wrapped up in it. Please keep your vote on one of them. I beg you. Like I would rather vote WG than Rhand today if that is what I have to do.
I feel like the timing of you bringing this up NOW is also a little bit..suspect. You have to know that Seppel/WG should be resolved TODAY. Not tomorrow, not the day after. Today. Right now. This is the most pressing issue imaginable, and will provide us a boatload of information. Information that you should want the town to have. Trying to lynch Rhand instead, 5 days from a deadline, with today being a holiday, feels very dubious. I don't like this, much like I don't like the way that you came into the thread leading the charge against Seppel and then just mysteriously backed down.
@WG: Why are you making such a big deal out of Az claiming 1-shot Vig? Especially now that he told us that he got RBed anyway. Like..scum can false-claim things, you know? If Az is neutral scum, his claim is perfectly reasonable. If he is mafia and knew that this was going to be low power game, then he could have thought his claim was believable. You act like no scum has ever claimed a role that wasn't real. I don't get it.
because he should be dead if he's scum goddammit. 1-shot-cop/bg/redirector is not a town pr team that makes sense.
I like Wheat's "dammit, NO" (missing text "DON'T LYNCH OUR ROLEBLOCKER!!")
This is literally the first thing Wheat has become impassioned about. In a game that he's "burned out" in. He suddenly cares about specifically not lynching Az? Uh huh.
I care about this game just enough to win. i don't see a victory path if we mislynch az, because there's no way i don't get mislynched before all 3 scum are lynched.
If you're town, I'll avenge you. That's all I can really say. I've just seemingly been wrong about so many things that, at this point, I have to assume that I've been wrong about you too.
I care about this game just enough to win. i don't see a victory path if we mislynch az, because there's no way i don't get mislynched before all 3 scum are lynched.
This kind of lacks sincerity, because you can't be positive that Az is a mislynch. Unless you KNOW that Az is a mislynch. If you know what I mean. In which case..my vote is in the right place.
So if we lynched one of the other two members of scum that would be a tragedy for town, Wheat? Do tell.
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I feel like the timing of you bringing this up NOW is also a little bit..suspect. You have to know that Seppel/WG should be resolved TODAY. Not tomorrow, not the day after. Today. Right now. This is the most pressing issue imaginable, and will provide us a boatload of information. Information that you should want the town to have. Trying to lynch Rhand instead, 5 days from a deadline, with today being a holiday, feels very dubious. I don't like this, much like I don't like the way that you came into the thread leading the charge against Seppel and then just mysteriously backed down.
This paragraph scares me by the way. Because I think you're way, way too love with Rhand at this point. Like I read this and go "oh man, if Rhand is scum Cyan is going to get completely blindsided by him." Like you're accusing taredas of all people of being sneaky, dude's not been sneaky at all. Thank you for going back and reconsidering Az's posts though, much appreciated.
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That being said though, Cyan's main point about the viability of a rhand lynch is spot on. Seppel or Wheat Taredas, let's pick soon and blow this lemonade stand.
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I feel like the timing of you bringing this up NOW is also a little bit..suspect. You have to know that Seppel/WG should be resolved TODAY. Not tomorrow, not the day after. Today. Right now. This is the most pressing issue imaginable, and will provide us a boatload of information. Information that you should want the town to have. Trying to lynch Rhand instead, 5 days from a deadline, with today being a holiday, feels very dubious. I don't like this, much like I don't like the way that you came into the thread leading the charge against Seppel and then just mysteriously backed down.
This paragraph scares me by the way. Because I think you're way, way too love with Rhand at this point. Like I read this and go "oh man, if Rhand is scum Cyan is going to get completely blindsided by him." Like you're accusing taredas of all people of being sneaky, dude's not been sneaky at all. Thank you for going back and reconsidering Az's posts though, much appreciated.
I'm not going to get blindsided by him. Rhand's role is self-resolving. If he is still alive a couple of days from now, we'll deal with it. And yes, I realize that this means that the scum could conceivably trick us into lynching him. That is what happens sometimes when the scum can consistently neutralize your only protective role. This is also why Mods typically used to not let scum NK and use their personal action(such as an RB) on the same night when there was only one scum. These days many Mods are just like 'whatever scum can just do what they want lol', which is infuriating and dumb, but we'll cross that bridge when/if we get to it.
At the same time, it's hard for me to believe that Rhand, as scum, saw Iso claim Redirector, and thought he could throw out a Bodyguard claim and risk the town also having possibly ANOTHER protective role claim and just what..never get caught in the crossfire? This is extremely risky, and Rhand's claim was the second one out the gate. This provides him a huge amount of credibility, in my mind. And I feel like his behavior throughout the day lends weight to this.
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I just reread 5 pages of your posts, and you address people with ´please´ and/or question marks.
Giving orders like that is a real tone change, which is well noted.
So you don't think az is neutral, whose on the team besides me, Rhand?
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*turns head to side quizzically, as though looking at some new and unique species recently discovered in the Amazon rainforest*
I'm considering posting a series of made-up nonsense words, just as an experiment, then sit back and watch you convince yourself that somehow my posting the word "gobbledebloopemshireballs!" somehow comes from a scum mindset.
The problem going around, I think, is a lack of empathy. We've had a lot of people paying lip service to the need to examine the pro-town rationales and motivations for an action, but invariably, the first instinct from most of the players this game has been to look for the scum explanation first.
This is why Chris' approach to the game, which I endorse and fully approve of, tends to be so much more successful.
If you look at each players' post with an unbiased eye, looking with equal or greater eagerness to find townie tells as scum tells, you are much less likely to deceive yourself misreading behaviors that are null, meta-explainable, or actually townish in nature. It's also simpler because fewer players intentionally mine false townie tells, and 75% of the players are town to begin with, so you're more likely to pick up a greater quantity of tells and a greater volume of information by actively searching out townie tells, than you are if you are looking *only* for things that *might* indicate a scum mindset.
Under Cyan's view of the world, this paragraph is likely to be filed away as scum Azrael lecturing the town to suit his own nefarious purposes and dismisss the case against him.
Under a more nuanced view, you might be able to understand that I'm simply baffled at your confirmatory bias, complete inability to find my town tells (which ARE there for the finding), and honestly trying to shine some light on why your town methods have been, by your own admission, not meeting your expectations of late.
Under that same form of analysis as set out above, I've long since stated that I'm confident in clearing the majority of the town's players. Tradtionally, my POE misses 1 scum who is too smart for me, but catches 2/3 of the scum team pretty reliably. From there, the rest of the players usually mop up whoever I missed. In this game, while I've not had the time to keep my analysis as rapid or as rigorous as is typical for me in olden times, for reasons I've already explained multiple times, I'm reasonably confident that Wheat and Seppel are the two caught scum, and the last guy we can figure out before too much longer.
Under best practices, I should also be PBPAing Wheat and Seppel individually and setting out a thorough case, but it's just not likely to be in the cards under my current time constraints to squeeze in another two PBPAs today, on top of what I've already completed in the full-game reread and individual ISOs.
But by the same token, you might also want to consider that another reason your methodology has been less reliable of late is a lack of accurate and thorough PBPAing. There was a time when no one on this site got lynched without a 2000-word dreadnought justifying the case. And that's still the gold standard - it's just not commonly done so much anymore. But it should be. If you did, I'm pretty sure you'd have a better shot at reading me than you do by going off your snap impressions of me as you read the thread for the first time.
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Btw Cyan I think you crave excitement in mafia too much. You literally let the stall in the day get inside your head and you like needed to do something different just to do it different. First it was wheat and then it was azrael. You crave change way too much.
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@Sir Chris: Meh. That is all part of why I am leaving. No one ever wants to act anymore, and the game itself is..just stale. From in-game behavior, to game-designs themselves. Honestly, I just feel like a product from a forgotten time, when things were just, well..better(in my mind)..but yeah mostly just more interesting.
Also, Rhand isn't leading me anywhere, I've been vocally stating that Azrael is scum since yesterday. If anyone is leading someone somewhere there, I am responsible.
@WG: Why are you making such a big deal out of Az claiming 1-shot Vig? Especially now that he told us that he got RBed anyway. Like..scum can false-claim things, you know? If Az is neutral scum, his claim is perfectly reasonable. If he is mafia and knew that this was going to be low power game, then he could have thought his claim was believable. You act like no scum has ever claimed a role that wasn't real. I don't get it.
It occurs to me that we might have had trouble getting a lynch on WG and Seppel because they really are BOTH scum, but then like..why isn't WG jumping on this Az train with all possible ferocity? It's just the opposite. Everything WG does just reinforces my belief that he is town. If he had just voted Az without making a big deal out of it, Az would be L-1 and someone would lynch him, and most likely, WG would look none the worse for wear.
I like Wheat's "dammit, NO" (missing text "DON'T LYNCH OUR ROLEBLOCKER!!")
This is literally the first thing Wheat has become impassioned about. In a game that he's "burned out" in. He suddenly cares about specifically not lynching Az? Uh huh.
Would you lynch Wheat over no-lynching? @Cyan: Is this a slip? Please tell me it is. I don't remember anyone ever saying you were 1-shot.
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Iso you ********.
This makes a depressing amount of sense, but..it doesn't explain why no one was willing to lynch YOU today.
Like. It stands to reason that, if WG didn't get lynched because he is scum, as soon as the wagon on you developed it should have gone through very quickly. The only reason it wouldn't have is if you are ALSO scum. I don't think you thought this through very well, sir.
I also need to go back and make sure I didn't just super tunnel Az.
But on the plus side, I'm more confident than I will ever be that Seppel is indeed scum. Far more certain than I am that Az is. Unvote, Vote Seppel This is the best vote, and this should be a pretty clear explanation of why.
I don't see why you think my answer would be anything other than yes, considering my want to lynch Wheat is part of the reason the day has been kept going.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
(5) Seppel - Wheat_Grinder, Sir Chris, Azrael, Cyan, Gentleman Johnny
(3) Azrael - Seppel, Taredas, Rhand
(1) Wheat_Grinder - Prophylaxis
Not Voting: Cythare
With 10 alive, it's 6 to lynch.
A deadline has been set for Tuesday, December 1st at 5pm CST.
I am very close to replacing Cythare given their consistent need for prodding and minimal content when not in need of prodding. While I will not be pulling the trigger there yet, if you are someone following the game and do not have access to spec chat, PM me if you wish to be on deck to replace.
Do we want to wait for Cythare/a possible replacement?
(I actually don't see the point in waiting as Cythare is not likely to die at Night)
These are the moments that plague me as town. If Seppel being truthful here? If he is, this is a huge town point for him. Especially the 'Iso you ******** part', because this is the dawning realization where he gets exactly how much the mass-claim screwed the town over. But Seppel is unquestionably capable of orchestrating that whole bit just to make himself look better. :/
This is just all so complicated and involved. I'm trying to play through all of the situations in my head. The various combinations of WG/Seppel/AZ and their perspective alignments. It's all just such a mess. Seppel's point about Wheat finally getting excited about something is an incredibly relevant one. But if Seppel gets WG lynched here, and WG flips scum, it would definitely result in Az also getting lynched. Is this going to be enough to carry Seppel all the way through the rest of the game if he is their buddy? Have I just been wrong about him all along?
Let's say I have been wrong about Seppel(and about WG..and basically everything unfortunately), and the scum team is Azrael/WG/X. Hell, the Azrael part doesn't even really matter. The WG part is the important part. If this is the case, why did the Seppel lynch not get pushed through? He was at L-2 for what seemed like eternity. The people voting Seppel were first :(4) Seppel - Cyan, Taredas, Rhand, Wheat_Grinder and then:(4) Seppel - Cyan, Rhand, Wheat_Grinder, Sir Chris. So only Taredas and Sir Chris changed on the wagon here. At any moment, if one of the other scum added their vote, it would have created enough momentum for someone to hammer and the day to end. Like..that is simply how things go. Isn't it? Or is this just another antiquated notion of mine?
Especially as the day dragged on. I feel like we have to conclude that the scenario where WG is scum but Seppel is not simply does not make sense. The same should hold true with both being town. The scum should have not problem trading one town wagon for another. If other people disagree, I would really like to hear it.
In *my* mind, this means that WG is NOT scum, and that Seppel IS, and that the scum did not want to relinquish a town wagon(WG) to go to a scum one(Seppel). I admit that it is also possible that they did not want to go from a scum wagon(WG) to ANOTHER scum wagon(Seppel) as well, but it's hard to see Seppel just super bussing WG right now then, because he is fully committing to trying to ride out the entire rest of the game as the last scum, which seems like as a pretty unlikely premise.
Let's first carry this logic further by looking at the people that were voting WG at the high point of his wagon: (5) Wheat_Grinder - Cyan, Prophylaxis, Seppel, Gentleman Johnny, Sir Chris. SC maintains that he still thinks WG is scum. So does Proph. So does GJ. They haven't waivered in this conviction the entire day. So if WG is town and Seppel is scum, one of these 3, plus some unknown party, should be scum with Seppel.
If WG *IS* scum, then..I honestly have no idea whatsoever what is going on. But this also means that AZ is very likely to be mafia too, and Seppel could easily STILL be mafia.
To me, this all still just leads back to Seppel overwhelmingly being the correct lynch for today. No matter how I look at things, no matter how I try to find someone else to lynch, it just comes back to Seppel. Even if we're wrong, it gives it so much information that it's still worth it.
Can we please just do this already. I have tried to look at other people. I have done everything. It's Seppel. It has to be.
I am noting this because this glib post is an early indication to me that Azrawl respects Cyan's scum game a great deal, and I think it informs on his paranoia of Cyan.
See this is the type of post that I think demonstrates a town mindset. Because really there's no good reason to say this. If I had been a power role with no flavor it would have been the pro town thing to not stir this pot. This feels like someone who just wants to poke at Iso by correcting his logic, which I don't find scummy.
This is exactly what appears to be happening, by the way. I guess it doesn't preclude scum to be correct on this issue, but I like the fact that Azrael saw the problem ahead of time and tried to ward it off.
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(I was not paranoid of Rhand at all until he was like "sure az!" What the hell Rhand)
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Where did this come from, CT3? Nice to see that Az can keep his story straight. But how does this reflect Az 'respecting my scum game'?
This feels like WIFOM at it's finest.
Also I admit I fall in love with seemingly bad habits. I like to use WIFOM and meta to read players a lot. I believe I am very skilled at piercing through wifom to understand people's motives, and the same for meta. It is, as the kids say, -EV to try to prevent the mass claim if you were scum.
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This is true, and I feel like I addressed this, but maybe I deleted that part. I revise my posts alot before finally submitting them. Either way, we should be lynching Seppel. So, you know, feel free to vote him. Who knows how long we'll be in Twlight and can keep musing about this stuff anyway.
Anyway. This would certainly explain why we were basically stuck between 2 wagons. It would make it difficult to find the final scum too. We can work on that tomorrow. I'll just be happy to get this day in the bags.
Wait so..he called my scum game trash THIS GAME, and the later talked about how great my scum game is and you don't see any problem with this?
Am I missing something here?
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
If Rhand comes in to hammer me, the game's in your hands. I absolve myself of any trainwreck that happens after my lynch. I've already posted everything that needs to be posted to find the scum.
Final recap:
Cyan
DCIII/Taredas
Sir Chris
Prophylaxis
Rhand
Gentleman Johnny
Cythare
Azrael
Wheat_Grinder
GJ goes up to leaning town because he's still participating and his posts are (dare I say it) good.
Cythare goes down to gray for doing uck all nothing.
======================================================
Here's how the rest of the game should go:
N2: Rhand dies while protecting Cyan (or they block Cyan + kill Rhand)
D3: Lynch Wheat
N3: Cyan dies (or Rhand if still alive)
D4: Lynch Azrael
N4: Taredas dies
We endgame with:
1. Sir Chris
2. Prophylaxis
3. Cythare
4. Gentleman Johnny
NL if you want Proph or Chris to pointlessly die.
Cythare and GJ duke it out. GJ probably wins due to posting more. We find out if we've won.
HAPPY T-GIVING!
This feels like such a town post. I am so flaky. I just hate being wrong
But it's just like..why are you alive if WG is scum and you are town? It makes no sense. The scum team would have to be like exactly WG, Azrael, Cythare. And I feel like that is such a narrow line, and you simply being scum is more like. If you are town..I am sorry, I am going to have to go with the odds here.
@Sir Chris: Maybe it was sarcastic, except for the part where he's spent the entire rest of the game since then calling me scum without backing it up whatsoever.
If we're not going to lynch Wheat, then I'm fine with lynching Azrael. He's just seeming to intentionally ignore the rest of my questions and has had a very opportunistic hop onto Seppel, citing the "mid-game phase" and a post that I thought showed strong townie tells from Seppel as a "scum post". But in no way we should lynch Seppel. His last post is a very genuine "I'm leaving, here are my reads and what we should do" post.
Unvote ; Vote : Azrael
--
How were Az's D1 Wheat attacks strong in any way? The only thing I remember was Az voting Wheat and quoting a bunch of posts.
@Tar: Can you answer my question about GJ? And can you tell me more about why you dislike Seppel's comments on Wheat? I personally found Seppel's Wheat case quite strong.
Unvote, Vote Azrael
Is that seriously 5 on Az.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Unvote
I feel bad because I know everyone in the Spectator thread is just super making fun of me right now, sigh. I hate being town.
BRB, reading.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
So just as a personal aside, if you turn out to be scum, I will lose all respect for you for faking an out of game plea like this. Some lines are just not acceptable to cross. I don't think that is what is happening. Just..fair warning.
And that stuff IS in my head, especially in a game like this. That is just who I am. I have been playing Mafia on this site for 11 years now. Like...that is a long goddamned time. I can't help but be emotionally vested in it. Plus I take alot of flack for tunneling and blah blah blah. It gets to you after awhile. And we're already down one lynch, and the whole town is pretty much Vanilla. We're on a pretty thin wire here. I really want to get this right.
Anyway I'm looking at Az's posts, notating things that interest me.
I understand your emotions though. I've been there. There are certain games I just had to have. Maybe I'll tell you some stories after the game.
(still reading)
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Okay first off, credentials. I try not to do this type of stuff because it's lame but I am a better town finder than anyone else in this game when I am at my peak. There are different types of Chris. Not feeling well Chris (The Wall, the start of this game), neutral Chris (Castlevania/XKCD) and Hyped Chris (Predator, this game more recently) I break this down because I am just going to remind everyone that I literally 100% nailed the game in Predator night 1 and the only reason it didn't end worse for scum was because a scum read made an insanely good fake flavor claim.
Okay, my point: I'm better than the rest of you at town clearing people. I believe this with my whole heart. You didn't listen day one with ZDS and he died. So this time I am not asking, I am telling: we're not lynching Azrael. I will bury you all in the deepest levels of hell itself before I allow any harm to come to this man.
Okay so I have not played with Az before and I have barely looked at other games of his, so I don't have a real good feel for his meta. A lot of people are telling me “this fits within Az's scum meta” but because these people are not me I am assuming they are using meta incorrectly because almost everyone I have seen in the year and a half I have been on this site uses meta incorrectly. And you use it to lynch strong as hell players. I had to watch in xkcd as the town buried Iso for reasons that were BEYOND me. So your meta arguments can just go in a fire somewhere.
While I am at it both Cyan and Az are doing the MTG TOWN CLASSIX oftwo strong players and deciding to have a dick measuring contest over who can attack the other the most for inane reasons. And you know what? That's a reason I am reading Az as town! Scum are just BETTER on this site than some of the stuff he has said about Cyan:
No Az, he was fine, you're just assigning emotions and sneakiness to genuine thought. Hey Cyan, remember that feeling you openly express about not liking to be town? How you doubt yourself and how things confuse you. Now imagine for a moment everyone feels that way. Imagine that people actually respect you SO MUCH that every little thing you do is put under a microscope because your scum play in the past has made them doubt their ability to play the game. In fact, think about how you think about me. How a sentence can make you super paranoid. How you imagine that a random comment is actually something sinister. This is how many others view you Cyan! Do you know how hard it would be for a scum to fake that level of paranoia? Scum often are too LENIENT on town, they show too much mercy.. Many of Az's posts in your direction are not so much a “bad case” against you as much as paranoid mutterings of a mad man who appears to have seen a ghost. He has seen your scum game and he is AFRAID of you.
He calls ZDS town (I naturally like this because I agreed with it, but admittedly can be faked and then says this about Cyan when ZDS says he thinks Cyan is genuine:
See this satisfies both things I discussed earlier. Bad meta reliance and respect. He respects Cyan enough to be extremely wary of him. This has been a PILLAR of his Cyan read that bleeds through. He has been consistent this game in how scared he is of Cyan.
Here, this game day, I asked Az to let Cyan go. Note Cyan isn't in his top 3 scum reads right now and he is heavily town reading me. It would have been SO EASY to back down from me and if his paranoia was fake he could have just subsided just a little. He doesn't though. He firmly rejects my plea with this post:
[
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcmAjvMmDyc
Anyone but you, Cyan. You are the only exception. He had a chance to fall in line, to be accepted into my warm embrace but he just can't do it. Even though he later admits my methodology is very strong:
Look at that quote. He clearly, dare I say it, admires the way I go about figuring out the game. And yet that admiration is blocked by sheer unbridled FEAR of your scum game, Cyan. In his mind he knows I am good at what I do, but when I offer him my perspective he has to reject me. He just can't give into my perspective. He has seen the horrors you have inflicted onto towns. He doesn't want that to befall THIS game. He has people he thinks are scummier, he doesn't want to think of you in that light, but you're scary to him. He isn't thinking perfectly straight. He has been consistent with that this game, as far as I can tell. He has never wavered from his fear of you. He has never been perfectly comfortable with you. That type of paranoia is hard as hell to fake.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiaRYQlsjy4
I am going to note, because it is important, I have chosen to directly attack one of your main problems with him instead of discussing the interactions I think that seal the deal. There are a host of other things, Cyan, and if you are unconvinced from this post I will continue. You, and ironically Azrael, lack empathy for one another. His fear of you is plain to see. It imposes itself freely upon his actions, making him look a fool. Scum lean towards the calm, not the comically foolish, Cyan.
Cease this madness.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Yeah, I see a thing or two that needs discussion.
Namely, my redacted thoughts on you from 1259.
And those are kind of important at this point, because the main thing I've been redacting is that you're *NOT* a townread anymore. Quite the opposite, in fact - you've been one of my two strongest scumreads ever since 1084, and are now my strongest scumread by a large margin.
Let's take a look at your 1084 again:
See, my immediate reaction to this post was "I'd better rethink my setupgaming, because it's wrong - you *KNOW* my alignment and don't *care*". That's a reaction I've learned to trust - it caught dC in Redux Mirror and KK in WitchHunt.
More importantly, even setting aside gut reaction, I have trouble seeing this post come from a town mindset. First, if you were actually town who thought I was town, I don't think you'd just dismiss my attack on GJ with "based on two small pieces of meta" - you'd try to explain why I was wrong, or why my case was inconclusive.. And I don't see how "permission to keep thinking Sir Chris is scum" makes any sense from a town mindset provided that you had actually noticed that I called Sir Chris likely town in that post, and *ESPECIALLY* not if you actually thought I was misguided town. I mean, if you actually thought I was misguided town, what does that comment *do*? It can't be showing suspicion of me, because you just said you thought I was misguided town; it can't be trying to get me to reconsider my reads Most importantly, I definitely don't see why you would be voting Sir Chris in my shoes *when I had just explained why I wasn't voting Sir Chris* - I mean, why would I be voting a player who I had just said was more likely town than not?
Makes perfect sense if you're scum taking a potshot at me without committing to the attack, though!
Uh, really? I don't understand how you could possibly think that I was an inquisitive townie who looked over Sir Chris and concluded that he was more likely town than not and *still* thought that in my shoes you would be voting Sir Chris over Wheat. Unsure about Sir Chris being town, yes (since that was my *actual* conclusion - "I think he's more likely town than not but can't rule him out because I can't rule out the scumteam he fits in - both GJ and Wheat are independently scumreads"), but voting him? The only reason I could see is if you had *missed* that I came to the conclusion that Sir Chris was more likely town than not - and that can't be it, because if that was the case you would have said that by now.
Again, makes perfect sense if you're scum trying to avoid a fight by backing off your previous faked suspicion, though!
(For the record: I *hadn't* looked very closely at Wheat at that time and was running on D1 impression plus recent posts and memories of his past games (notably Majora's Mask), and I actually dug into *Sir Chris* because of *Johnny* rather than the other way around - SC and GJ walled at each other a fair bit late D1, and I thought GJ and SC were likely scum independently but that kind of walling usually *isn't* scum-on-scum [the only time I've seen it from scumbuddies is WWE] so either this was an unusual case or I was wrong on at least one of GJ/SC. So I checked.)
---
Scum!Rhand means my other strong scumread is wrong, because Rhand is not scum with Az - even if the scumteam is all Goons, I don't think 1-Shot Cop and Redirector can be the only two town power roles balancewise. Wasn't quite as sure about Az as I acted in 1259 anyways - Az would be a leanscum read in a vacuum, but I played it more certain than I actually was, partially because I'm me and partially not to tip off Rhand and knock him onto the defense before I was sure - reading defensive tone is my biggest weakness and I already botched that once this game (see: GJ).
I'm pretty sure scum!Rhand means the scumteam is {Rhand, Wheat, (GJ/Cythare}), leaning towards Cythare over GJ parrtially because Cythare's disappearance reminds me of me in Gatecrash but mostly because GJ's responses to Rhand in 239/352 - those two posts look like a townie going "what, what?". (That would mean Rhand was dismissing my attack on a townie, but that's possible?) Rhand/Wheat makes a bunch of sense in general - Rhand's been on basically all the Wheat counterwagons and Wheat's been pretty consistent in thinking that all of the power roles are scum.
(Aside: I'm finally comfortable clearing Sir Chris after 1305. That's an incredibly unusual stance to take, much less strongly argue against it with one of the two players you're calling town-on-town close to lynch - even taking town points into account, I don't see why Sir Chris would do that as scum.)
Vote: Rhand
HoS: Wheat
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
I went back and re-read all of Az's posts. And I hated them...at first, anyway. Just like I did before. I hated the ones at the beginning, and through the Proph wagon, and through his arguing with me, and through his claim. But after that, they started to get better and he started to sound more and more solid. The language sounded stronger and more confident and more..correct.
I am still very, very bothered by the fact that he just showed up late today and voted Seppel out of nowhere. This is incredibly anti-town behavior, and frankly, I am pretty sure Az is going to be in the end-game and I won't actually be surprised if he flips scum. But re-reading him has shaken my belief enough that I'm willing to let it go, for now anyway, and to see what happens later.
@Taredas: Voting Rhand right now seems pretty bad, especially based on just a couple of posts. If he's scum, this should work itself out in a day or two, and we really, really need to resolve the mess that is WG/Seppel first. That is a morass that has so much information wrapped up in it. Please keep your vote on one of them. I beg you. Like I would rather vote WG than Rhand today if that is what I have to do.
I feel like the timing of you bringing this up NOW is also a little bit..suspect. You have to know that Seppel/WG should be resolved TODAY. Not tomorrow, not the day after. Today. Right now. This is the most pressing issue imaginable, and will provide us a boatload of information. Information that you should want the town to have. Trying to lynch Rhand instead, 5 days from a deadline, with today being a holiday, feels very dubious. I don't like this, much like I don't like the way that you came into the thread leading the charge against Seppel and then just mysteriously backed down.
I've been wrong about everything else, so, we might as well just go with the wagon that other people thought was correct.
yes but his reason is stupid and i hope if i keep asking he will realize this too
because he should be dead if he's scum goddammit. 1-shot-cop/bg/redirector is not a town pr team that makes sense.
I care about this game just enough to win. i don't see a victory path if we mislynch az, because there's no way i don't get mislynched before all 3 scum are lynched.
This kind of lacks sincerity, because you can't be positive that Az is a mislynch. Unless you KNOW that Az is a mislynch. If you know what I mean. In which case..my vote is in the right place.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
This paragraph scares me by the way. Because I think you're way, way too love with Rhand at this point. Like I read this and go "oh man, if Rhand is scum Cyan is going to get completely blindsided by him." Like you're accusing taredas of all people of being sneaky, dude's not been sneaky at all. Thank you for going back and reconsidering Az's posts though, much appreciated.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
I'm not going to get blindsided by him. Rhand's role is self-resolving. If he is still alive a couple of days from now, we'll deal with it. And yes, I realize that this means that the scum could conceivably trick us into lynching him. That is what happens sometimes when the scum can consistently neutralize your only protective role. This is also why Mods typically used to not let scum NK and use their personal action(such as an RB) on the same night when there was only one scum. These days many Mods are just like 'whatever scum can just do what they want lol', which is infuriating and dumb, but we'll cross that bridge when/if we get to it.
At the same time, it's hard for me to believe that Rhand, as scum, saw Iso claim Redirector, and thought he could throw out a Bodyguard claim and risk the town also having possibly ANOTHER protective role claim and just what..never get caught in the crossfire? This is extremely risky, and Rhand's claim was the second one out the gate. This provides him a huge amount of credibility, in my mind. And I feel like his behavior throughout the day lends weight to this.