Therefore, I could ONLY possibly be bandwagoning you. Get over yourself. rollout You're acting like I have no business scumreading you when you've done nothing to establish yourself as a shining beacon of town, and when other people have already presented reasonable arguments against you.
Do you think that the arguments against you are unreasonable?
I have five votes on me: ZDS, Seppel, you, Cyan, and Az.
ZDS is the only one who brought up any actual reasoning, and I deconstructed it in #243. Cyan and (presumably) you are just barning him. Seppel's reasoning is "you're trying too hard" which is very vague. I have three votes on me which are completely devoid of reasoning and are just hops on the wagon.
Quote from Rhand »
@Proph: show me a game where you did D1 wagon analysis as town please
@Rhand: I know there was ONE game when we agreed and then you eventually started calling me scum, but I can't remember what it was. I'll have to look into it because that seems important.
-
@Proph: Therefore, I have no reasoning and can only be bandwagoning. Right.
Does it frustrate you when you can't defens yourself? And you didn't answer my other question about the arguments against you. Are they reasonable or not?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Proph: you sealed the deal for me. You asked me 2 questions now that I ignored and you don't seem to care. You do read my posts though as you answer mine. Consider my vote on you.
@Iso: it sounds true, but I have no idea which one that was.
Therefore, I could ONLY possibly be bandwagoning you. Get over yourself. rollout You're acting like I have no business scumreading you when you've done nothing to establish yourself as a shining beacon of town, and when other people have already presented reasonable arguments against you.
Do you think that the arguments against you are unreasonable?
I have five votes on me: ZDS, Seppel, you, Cyan, and Az.
ZDS is the only one who brought up any actual reasoning, and I deconstructed it in #243. Cyan and (presumably) you are just barning him. Seppel's reasoning is "you're trying too hard" which is very vague. I have three votes on me which are completely devoid of reasoning and are just hops on the wagon.
Quote from Rhand »
@Proph: show me a game where you did D1 wagon analysis as town please
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I feel like Rhand's "I wouldn't mind being on the Proph wagon" is opportunist, especially since he hasn't said anything about it before and he was barning the momentum on my wagon. I also feel like Sir Chris is trying to stay off my wagon because he knows that I'll flip town. Wheat should be voting Chris instead of GJ.
My favorite thing about proph is he in the span of two posts derides someone for bandwagoning him and also tries to swipe at me because I do not think he is scum.
wtf Proph.
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@Proph: you sealed the deal for me. You asked me 2 questions now that I ignored and you don't seem to care. You do read my posts though as you answer mine. Consider my vote on you.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Proph: you sealed the deal for me. You asked me 2 questions now that I ignored and you don't seem to care. You do read my posts though as you answer mine. Consider my vote on you.
@Iso: it sounds true, but I have no idea which one that was.
@Proph: you sealed the deal for me. You asked me 2 questions now that I ignored and you don't seem to care. You do read my posts though as you answer mine. Consider my vote on you.
NICE.
See on the other hand it makes sense with how much back and forth proph has done in this last page that he might lose track of a couple of threads. This feels pretty pouncy at this point. I don't know why a scum Proph would poke me with a stick like he did.
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Chris's status is that he strongly believes me to be scum. He also believes Cythare to be town, and of course himself to be town. That would mean that if I die and flip town, to him, Iso was wrong about all three. Him not going with my plan would mean he is town reading Iso, regardless of my flip. Which means he has offered nothing into any of his other scum reads. Even if he doesn't believe I flip town, he has done very little (from what I have seen) to pursue his other two scum reads in the eight other players.
I don't have any other scum reads. Haven't even thought about other scum yet. I do have a few town reads though. I like town reads, they are usually far more accurate than my scum reads on average, although I do occasionally have a good beat on someone, and so I tend to focus on that. I mean I guess good on you for noticing the obvious pattern in my play and spinning it as if it means something. Sneaky.
I
have seen you use the exact opposite logic in games we played together where a play was so scummy, you read it as probable town, and ended up being wrong. Occam's razor is a thing.
Occam's razor is pretty garbage, as are all generalized uses of logic. You've seen everyone be wrong about everything a few times if you played with them enough. Also the instances where I am wrong for letting go of obvious scummy play in a vacuum actually hurting town is very, very low. I think I explained this somewhere recently about my blindspot theory, and how having a blindspot for very poor scum play is the best place to have it due to the team nature of the game. Either way though saying opposite logic failed me as a way to try to dismiss my logic on you is... pretty savvy, and not really something I'd expect someone just thinking about the game to chain together naturally. This feels very manufactured.
Basically guys stop with the proph crap, GJ is scum and you should be voting him instead. I cannot be the only one who reads into this.
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Chris's status is that he strongly believes me to be scum. He also believes Cythare to be town, and of course himself to be town. That would mean that if I die and flip town, to him, Iso was wrong about all three. Him not going with my plan would mean he is town reading Iso, regardless of my flip. Which means he has offered nothing into any of his other scum reads. Even if he doesn't believe I flip town, he has done very little (from what I have seen) to pursue his other two scum reads in the eight other players.
I don't have any other scum reads. Haven't even thought about other scum yet. I do have a few town reads though. I like town reads, they are usually far more accurate than my scum reads on average, although I do occasionally have a good beat on someone, and so I tend to focus on that. I mean I guess good on you for noticing the obvious pattern in my play and spinning it as if it means something. Sneaky.
I
have seen you use the exact opposite logic in games we played together where a play was so scummy, you read it as probable town, and ended up being wrong. Occam's razor is a thing.
Occam's razor is pretty garbage, as are all generalized uses of logic. You've seen everyone be wrong about everything a few times if you played with them enough. Also the instances where I am wrong for letting go of obvious scummy play in a vacuum actually hurting town is very, very low. I think I explained this somewhere recently about my blindspot theory, and how having a blindspot for very poor scum play is the best place to have it due to the team nature of the game. Either way though saying opposite logic failed me as a way to try to dismiss my logic on you is... pretty savvy, and not really something I'd expect someone just thinking about the game to chain together naturally. This feels very manufactured.
Basically guys stop with the proph crap, GJ is scum and you should be voting him instead. I cannot be the only one who reads into this.
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2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It also looks like Chris can't make up his mind on whether or not to bus Proph. Look at this gem immediately before his post saying how town Proph is and how we should totally lynch GJ, guise.
I feel like Rhand's "I wouldn't mind being on the Proph wagon" is opportunist, especially since he hasn't said anything about it before and he was barning the momentum on my wagon. I also feel like Sir Chris is trying to stay off my wagon because he knows that I'll flip town. Wheat should be voting Chris instead of GJ.
My favorite thing about proph is he in the span of two posts derides someone for bandwagoning him and also tries to swipe at me because I do not think he is scum.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
1. You are not banned from using the term Chainsaw because you don't know what a Chainsaw defense is.
2.
My favorite thing about proph is he in the span of two posts derides someone for bandwagoning him and also tries to swipe at me because I do not think he is scum.
3. Your smugness is no more appealing than it has ever been, Iso. Engage me, don't get cute.
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2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
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No, a chainsaw defense is when you attack someone else's attacker to defend someone else.
Attacking someone and defending someone is called playing mafia.
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2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
None of Proph's recent posts have any of the righteous indignation/loose confidence that I'd expect from a Town Proph being run up, especially in a game where he'd expect more people to be able to read his Town game correctly. They're stiff.
The other thing is that I come out swinging hard at Chris and Az for their approach to Proph and then... pressure just continues to build on Proph from several other players with no acknowledgement of my reasoning that I thought he was Town, which is typically not how it goes when someone is loudly pushing back on people scum reading a town player, especially a player like Proph. It doesn't feel like the game is treading carefully around him.
But Proph naked voting GJ and then unvoting him as the wagon builds and then shifting over to Chris as that's happening seems like a very atypical scum Proph move, though. If he's scum I certainly don't think he'd do that if GJ was scum as well, especially considering how much attention he drew to thinking GJ was townie when GJ was under heavy suspicion and questioning so many people on it. I suppose it's possible he'd do it if GJ was town, but then moving his vote to a town Chris if he was scum there also feels pretty unlikely. This is why Chris's question if he was scum with GJ was so bad. But him shifting the focus from a townie to a scum buddy like Chris who was pushing that townie also doesn't seem like his style. Maybe if he thought Chris could just shake it and it'd look better for Chris - but he knew Chris was on my radar so it doesn't feel like he'd think that was likely just to blow over quietly. Just going toe to toe with Chris generally there for several posts in the way that he did feels like a stretch.
I'd like to hear thoughts on the above from folks scum reading him. If I'm wrong about Proph then I think I'm probably wrong about Chris (see below).
Actually if you read my 203 I think it becomes pretty clear that I don't think proph is scummy, I was just frustrated.
It's not clear that you aren't scum reading Proph in #203. The only thing that's clear is that you don't think he's as scummy as GJ and that you think my approach to you is worse - but the post before you say you don't see town intent in his posts and ask if he's defending his buddy GJ.
This is an important reaction from Chris, because if he was scum with Proph and I'm accusing him of being scum for his reaction to Proph here, seems strange that he would go out of his way to say that he didn't think Proph was scummy when his previous posts don't look like he thinks that. He's telling me that he's not scum reading Proph when that doesn't really mesh with his line of thought prior. He'd basically have had to have asked lines of questioning to Proph looking like he was suspicious of his motives, only to immediately distance from those opinions when called on them, while also knowing that Proph would flip scum. Seems unlikely.
I don't think anyone who had voted me up until that point is likely to be scum except maybe cyan who you say has shown reasons but that's a blatant lie. Completely blatant. I like being the center of attention when I can read through things and get to the heart of the matter. I don't like being confused about things. Several, several posts have left me confused to a person's thinking and doesn't help me game solve. Although I am glad you have such a deep, abiding faith in someone's town game that you can see one post and go "lol town." Perhaps I just don't have the experience with proph, but I thought he was a good player, and good players generally can't be town cleared from one post.
So about this... you're saying that good players can't generally be town cleared from one post, and you just liked Seppel's reasoning for clearing you based off of one post. And I've very little doubt that you'd think you could effectively clear Proph off of a post, just generally. And this doesn't go into or address the logic of thinking that Proph might be steering toward you as scum from scum GJ there, which I still think is a far fetched thought from a town you.
Man, look how testy and bent out of shape about this you are. It's not a very pro-town reaction.
@Seppel: I find SC's explanation of 'Cythare inspired me to participate in RVS' to be complete bull*****. He never participates in RVS, and is vocally opposed to it. This feels like a poor attempt at a cover.
Welcome to the things Cyan has said about me. Look, I get attacked pretty much literally every game, it's just the nature of the beast. That's fine, it's great in fact. But now I would like you to read this, and explain to me what Cyan is thinking. Because here's the thing: for whatever god forsaken reason, either as town or scum, Cyan has decided to go with "Chris' obvious joke RVS vote is something greater and he, as scum, made some huge mistake and when questioned about it right away made up BS in an ill-fated attempt to cover up SOMETHING."
Like ???
You're right about this point in that Cyan's content around you didn't say as much as I thought, it was more me filling in the blanks in my head, which I interpreted as him thinking you didn't believe your first vote (and that didn't come across as a joke), that you look defensive about the pressure, and that you were pretending it was a joke vote because you were taking pressure. And that the idea that you'd feel compelled to make a RVS vote as a joke felt phony because it doesn't seem like your style to be pressured into RVS.
One thing I'll note here though is that his use of "not pro-town" when describing your reaction seems like an odd word choice. Usually people use that to describe play that seems anti-town motivated and he's using it to describe a reaction which seems scummy, which are different things. Could be a semantics thing, but it's kind of bothering me.
I don't like being thought of as a poor scum player. I don't like feeling insulted. It's insulting! I'm literally better than that! You talk about MY analysis, and you say THIS passes muster. That is pathetic analysis on YOUR part.
I'm really hoping this is a fake reaction because what it boils down to is that you're insulted because I'm suspecting that you're mafia in a game of mafia... and you think my reasons are bad. If this is Town Chris - and you actually are insulted because you don't like the reasons for a read on you, then yeesh.
Ironic that this is your reaction when your main reason that you suspected me is that you're used to me voting you when I suspect you, which ignores all context around game states and is just bad.
I am not going to say either of the quoted things, you are just wrong. I wanted to see how Az would react to being shut down, and he reacted well. He could have been like you and made a big deal out of nothing, but he tilted his head to the side and thought about it. I like Az now.
Okay, but you don't know what he thought about it. He voted someone else so presumably you know that you aren't his top scum read, but that's all you know. Where's the curious Chris? You're upset that Cyan is calling you scum when you aren't able to parse his reasons but you weren't upset with Azrael's even more ambiguous reasoning. How do you know he tilted his head to the side and thought about anything and didn't just think Proph was so scummy that he had to vote him? He didn't give any indication of what he thought.
Not sure why DC3 is interpreting me as reading Sir Chris as town. I mean, I might be. Or I might not be. That's highly classified information.
Infested with silly town != I'm town-reading all four players on the wagon.
And I'm well aware of the various boring walls of text attempting to set out why GJ is scum, I simply have a completely opposite tonal read.
What's the benefit of keeping tight lipped on your reads reasoning? That's twice now and I don't remember you doing that at all in Gatecrash, you were giving reads all over the place.
When there's four people on a wagon and you say it's infested with silly Town and that's all you say, how is that not meant to convey that you have town reads on those players?
If you're not committing to a read on Chris, and Proph is pushing Chris, and you think that Proph is scum for trying to direct toward the people on the GJ wagon who are silly Town, how should that not be interpreted as thinking that you think Chris is Town? Otherwise, you wouldn't have said Proph is trying to get us to look at silly Town, because he's voting Chris. It doesn't make sense that you'd demur here.
The wording around calling the walls of text around GJ boring feels off as well. It's like you're trying hard to appear casual and dismissive about it.
1. He may have thought your lynch was building too quickly and worried that he actually WOULD have been blamed if you flipped town, especially since a number of players stated their violent opposition to your wagon.
2. He may have foreseen your wagon was going to fall apart shortly, and didn't feel a need to stay on it in favor of a more viable target.
3. He might have felt that it was necessary to jump off your wagon in order to better emulate his own townie play, prioritizing maintaining his cover over the quick kill.
4. He might have done it for WIFOM purposes, so he or a scum-buddy could make that argument in his defense.
5. You could be scum-buddies and he didn't want to kill you.
I have no particular reason to espouse any of those alternatives, but I dislike pushing the notion that Proph is cleared on such a weak and flimsy basis.
What's your opinion of Proph's scum game, generally?
@Proph: you sealed the deal for me. You asked me 2 questions now that I ignored and you don't seem to care. You do read my posts though as you answer mine. Consider my vote on you.
@Iso: it sounds true, but I have no idea which one that was.
@Proph: you sealed the deal for me. You asked me 2 questions now that I ignored and you don't seem to care. You do read my posts though as you answer mine. Consider my vote on you.
NICE.
See on the other hand it makes sense with how much back and forth proph has done in this last page that he might lose track of a couple of threads. This feels pretty pouncy at this point. I don't know why a scum Proph would poke me with a stick like he did.
Which is why I ignored his second question after he didn't react the first time.
Town!Proph adamantely keeps on trying to solve the game even when he thinks he's going to be lynched.
Here Proph is stalling and throwing out questions he doesn't care about.
I'm flabberghasted that you try to play around that Chris. You're not town, are you?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Alright, here are the notes from the reread I did. Hopefully it'll be of some use.
Reread Notes:
Sir Chris: Opens up with a "geeked out to be playing with you" to Az. Chris and Az open up with a bunch of weird openers at the start that I don't think they would take if they were scumbuddies? The "geeked out" part feels kind of genuine to me regardless of Chris's alignment though, so Chris/Az might be a soft unaligned pair. Next two posts are nullish, as his RVS vote makes sense if you ignore the "scum doing scummy things" part which Cyan and I both misunderstood. Has some interactions with me and refrains giving his Seppel read which he's beaten to death a bunch of times now. Now that I think about it again, I think that him not commenting on Seppel isn't scummy, but the way he complained about it felt like he was caught for the wrong reasons and is indicative of a scum mindset. He then calls Iso town (arriving to a similar read to me) but one thing that I found weird when rereading is this:
Quote from Chris »
I do not believe Az is right, but I cannot go into specifics on my read. I have to leave it at that, yeah. I probably shouldn't have said anything but it just popped into my head before I had time to screen it.
If you're town, why would you need to screen your own posts? Shouldn't you just post your unfiltered thoughts?
He has some pretty genuine emotional play with Cyan which again I think means that they are an unaligned pair. Null stuff with the "not reading" thing, but then we get to the DCIII counter response. One thing I noticed is that it's kind of weird that Chris goes "I'm not feeling frustrated at all right now!" with response to DCIII but then in his next post he's like "I'm not having a great time right now" which is an weird mood change. Another weird thing about Chris is his read on me. He goes "pretty off-putting" which gets quickly upgraded to a "I don't feel the town intent from you". He disappears over the weekend and now he's hard defending me which is a pretty radical read change.
@Chris - Why the 180 on me? Why did you go from "I don't feel the town intent from you" to "I don't know why a scum Proph would poke me with a stick like he did"? You can't possibly chalk up that to "I was frustrated". What in the past couple of days has had you townread me?
Conclusion: Several weird inconsistencies, screening posts, CFTWR. I still think he's scum in this one. I feel like his attempt to defend me is kind of like Cyan in xkcd, where he knows that his buddies are on the wagon but wants to distance himself from it because he knows that I'll flip town. Lynch him.
Iso: His Seppel vote post doesn't give much insight to Iso's alignment overall, but it did help me discern Seppel's alignment. Once again rereading I like the "I'm excited I would roll town" as I talked with Iso before the game started and we both mentioned how we wanted to roll town in this game. Plus most "I'm town" declarations tend to be from townies. Then there's the Az song and dance paragraph that I initially was positive on. There's also a mindmeld with Chris and GJ, as I was scumreading GJ around the time that post happened. We then have the "kill Cythare" stuff that I don't think Iso ever elaborated on. He then spars a bit with GJ. I think the paragraph where Iso talks about his early game play actually provides the key to Iso's alignment since it shows his mindset and thought process behind them. He pressures GJ a bit more which I feel looks good from both sides.
Conclusion: Iso's scum forte generally ends up being "quote strips until he gets pressured, then try to reread the thread posting notes" which I'm not seeing in this game. I think he reads town.
Gentleman Johnny: I've already covered this read but I'll explain it more in depth. His first couple of posts I really didn't like - his Iso vote was bad because he was voting Iso for "messing around" when the game just started to get out of RVS, and I didn't believe that Iso's questions were in any way shape or form messing around. His second post with the image felt a bit too cute/artificial and then he kept sparring with Iso which I initially thought looked good for Iso and bad for GJ. Then the thread started exploding and he posted post 154, which contained most of the townie things that my gut likes so I started to doubt my GJ scum read. Every time I've seen a 1v1 proposal on this site it's been declared by town since scum usually don't have the balls to call someone out like that. Then I started to get out of my confirmation bias and saw that most of his responses to Iso was GJ trying to understand where Iso was coming from. I do feel like GJ is tunneling on Iso, though, and I kind of want him to move on to other players - Iso's "what are your views on other players" is a good step towards that, though.
Conclusion: Currently strongest town read.
Azrael: Az is a bit of a wacky read for me since so much of his alignment depends on what Sir Chris flips. In addition the cagey playstyle which is much different from Gatecrash makes it difficult to get a read on him. The stuff on page 1 just feels so bizarre if they're both scum together. Some things I like is pouncing on the Sir Chris read for the post that I initially voted him before, and coming to the same conclusion on GJ after I did. Things I dislike are voting me (because I'm town) and the super forced "i'm scum guys" posts which I don't think were present at all in GTC. Overall I think I want to leave this read until Sir Chris flips, and re-evaluate. I do think that Az is the type of player who as scum runs out of steam in the midgame.
Conclusion: Based on what Sir Chris flips. If Chris flips scum, then I think I'm comfortable accepting Azrael as town. If Chris flips town, then I'll examine Azrael a bit more.
Seppel: We had the "I can read Az better than anyone else" stuff which I thought was a little out of place but ultimately not that alignment indicative. Already stated why I slightly townread him for post 40, though most of his stuff then has been null. The wall of text seems just kind of making noise and I don't think he would vote Cyan like that - it seems like a risky move for scum!Seppel to make with basically zero gain. He's completely wrong re: my alignment, though.
Conclusion: Weak townread.
Cythare: RVS stuff at the beginning - contrary to what Rhand says I don't think he slipped in #15. Scum slips are a lot rarer than people think they are. Votes Iso for pretty meh reasoning, though his responses to the answers are pretty generic and don't really tell me a whole lot. His reads post gives me mixed signals - it seems reckless as town to townclear a bunch of townies based off of a couple of posts, and having Iso and GJ both as scumreads strikes me as strange. The "get better at reading me" wrt Iso kind of gives me slight townie tinges though. I would really like him to chime on my wagon though since he hasn't done much posting over the past couple of days.
Conclusion: Not a whole lot yet. I'm notoriously bad at reading Cythare so some help on this read would be appreciated.
Cyan: He starts off by voting Chris, which I like, and his post 60 shows that he is indeed putting real thought into wagon placements and stuff, and I totally understand how he would come to doubt Az based on trying too hard. I really wish Cyan would be more specific though since he just quotes big posts and keeps stating that X person is scum, though that's more playstyle indicative rather than alignment. I also like the "Oh, Seppel" comment - feels very natural and genuine.
Conclusion: I had no read on Cyan before I looked at the game again and it turns out that I like most of his posts. Leaning town.
Rhand: The point where I started to scumread Rhand was his reasoning when he voted Az because the way Chris and Az interacted on page 1 gave me the exact opposite reaction. Reading the "whoever is most true gets postgame bragging rights", though.. I'm not sure if scum!Rhand would actually propose this? I don't see it entering a scum!Rhand's mind, exactly. Also @Rhand: The first question was rhetorical and the "why is Wheat leaning town on" I forgot since I couldn't access a laptop for most of the weekend.
Conclusion: Nullish. Had some townie and scummy stuff - this read could go either way.
DCIIII: Main way I read DCIII is look at his conviction of his posts and see if he really believes it. The main reason why I think DCIII is town is because he's echoing my thoughts on Chris but in a more elaborate way. He's the only one on Chris other than me, and that bodes well for him. Once again (I mentioned this in the Az read), want to see Chris flip before discerning other alignments. His thoughts on Chris also have gone from "poking" to "being more convicted" so I like that as well.
Conclusion: Decent town read. I'm confident I can catch a scum!DCIII and this doesn't feel like his scum game. I'll need to see Chris flip before I'm 100% certain though.
Wheat: I'm really bad at reading Wheat so this is the read that I'm most uncertain about. Based on a couple recent games (Final Fantasy) I think Wheat's just one of those players where I put in the "NEVER TOWNREAD" pile and get through PoE. I really can't get much out of his big stream of consciousness post since he does it as both alignments. The thing that I dislike from Wheat is the hesitation to be on my wagon and the GJ wagon push. GJ is pretty obviously town and I don't understand why town!Wheat waits for a votecount before voting me since he already thinks I'm scum. It reads too cautious.
Conclusion: I would normally read him null but I have a bunch of townreads which lands him into the leaning scum pile.
ZDS: Votes Cythare at the beginning, which can mostly be chalked up to a "I'm not familiar with your playstyle" vote. One thing I noticed is that he's mostly using meta shortcuts to get reads on players - Chris's play in Avant-Garde, for example, and Cythare's meta of posting a lot. He then starts up an junk vote against me, and I have to throw the ball back at him - his "Cyan, Seppel, Rhand" townreads feel too short and superficial to get townreads on all three. As a response to him: The missing post point from Chris is rather weak and I never intended that to be a major part of why I was scumreading him. I covered Seppel and Az.
Conclusion: I think he's the most likely out of all the people on my wagon to be scum.
I'm Susan, vanilla townie.
Please lynch Sir Chris after I'm lynched. I have a feeling that he's just trying to not dirty himself on my lynch which is why he shifted over to defending me.
It's hard for me to believe that a scum that is about to claim Vanilla Town(a claim that almost always gets a person lynched) would put that much effort into their 'as I lay dying' post. Maybe I'm getting WIFOM'ed here, but..I don't think so.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The fact that most all of Proph's reads depend on Chris's flip throws me back. Would a buddy really craft a post like this, deciding the whole gamestate on the flip of his buddy?
It's the only counterwagon that can rise from Proph's post.
Not sure what to think now. I need to digest this.
Are you online Iso? Do you think a Proph/Chris pairing likely after this post form Proph?
The fact that most all of Proph's reads depend on Chris's flip throws me back. Would a buddy really craft a post like this, deciding the whole gamestate on the flip of his buddy?
It's the only counterwagon that can rise from Proph's post.
Not sure what to think now. I need to digest this.
Are you online Iso? Do you think a Proph/Chris pairing likely after this post form Proph?
I also considered, 'If Proph is scum here and gets Chris lynched, he's just going to get himself lynched tomorrow. Would a scum really 1 for 1 themself on the first game day?" And I came to the conclusion that a scum would likely not do this. I feel very good about my unvote.
People that ask about role flavor in today's mafia games don't get to call other people's posts weak.
Cyan, we're in an age of Mafia where scum will do pretty much anything if they think it won't get them lynched. You're drinking the wine. "Scum wouldn't claim VT and put a lot of effort into a post near death." Really? Because I can probably look back and find dozens of games in which that has happened.
The fact that most all of Proph's reads depend on Chris's flip throws me back. Would a buddy really craft a post like this, deciding the whole gamestate on the flip of his buddy?
It's the only counterwagon that can rise from Proph's post.
Not sure what to think now. I need to digest this.
Are you online Iso? Do you think a Proph/Chris pairing likely after this post form Proph?
The fact that most all of Proph's reads depend on Chris's flip throws me back. Would a buddy really craft a post like this, deciding the whole gamestate on the flip of his buddy?
It's the only counterwagon that can rise from Proph's post.
Not sure what to think now. I need to digest this.
Are you online Iso? Do you think a Proph/Chris pairing likely after this post form Proph?
I also considered, 'If Proph is scum here and gets Chris lynched, he's just going to get himself lynched tomorrow. Would a scum really 1 for 1 themself on the first game day?" And I came to the conclusion that a scum would likely not do this. I feel very good about my unvote.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It's hard for me to believe that a scum that is about to claim Vanilla Town(a claim that almost always gets a person lynched) would put that much effort into their 'as I lay dying' post. Maybe I'm getting WIFOM'ed here, but..I don't think so.
@ZDS - Basically. I think his posting feels like he's scum but his line of play doesn't. Probably easier for him to fake line of play than posting, though.
@Iso - if you think Chris and Proph are scum together, what do you disagree with about my thoughts on that?
Cyan, we're in an age of Mafia where scum will do pretty much anything if they think it won't get them lynched.
That's nice. I don't see what an experienced player, as scum, would think that claiming VT would get them out of being lynched. This very rarely works.
Are you guys serious? I post my thoughts including more reasoning as to why Chris is scum, and.. the game just sort of just sits there. This is getting ridiculous.
@Iso: I have no flavor.
Quote from Wheat »
Unvote, Vote: Proph
Here's scum trying to cram the mislynch through without addressing the big post of mine.
I have no idea if this lynch is correct. I don't have a firm enough meta on Proph. Agree that Cyan's unvote is suspect.
This is a scummy post, through and through. You don't need meta to weigh in on Proph, you can do so based on the posts in this game. And no one said my unvote of him was 'suspect'.
Are you guys serious? I post my thoughts including more reasoning as to why Chris is scum, and.. the game just sort of just sits there. This is getting ridiculous.
@Iso: I have no flavor.
Considering I think Chris is also scum, why would that have any effect on me?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I don't have a lot of time, but I just wanted to say I don't have any flavor either.
Will post more in a day or so.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
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ZDS is the only one who brought up any actual reasoning, and I deconstructed it in #243. Cyan and (presumably) you are just barning him. Seppel's reasoning is "you're trying too hard" which is very vague. I have three votes on me which are completely devoid of reasoning and are just hops on the wagon.
Unreal Tournament (played as a gimmick that game)
@Cythare: Could you answer my question?
-
@Proph: Therefore, I have no reasoning and can only be bandwagoning. Right.
Does it frustrate you when you can't defens yourself? And you didn't answer my other question about the arguments against you. Are they reasonable or not?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Iso: it sounds true, but I have no idea which one that was.
This feels completely like stalling, and nothing else.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
My favorite thing about proph is he in the span of two posts derides someone for bandwagoning him and also tries to swipe at me because I do not think he is scum.
wtf Proph.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
See on the other hand it makes sense with how much back and forth proph has done in this last page that he might lose track of a couple of threads. This feels pretty pouncy at this point. I don't know why a scum Proph would poke me with a stick like he did.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
I don't have any other scum reads. Haven't even thought about other scum yet. I do have a few town reads though. I like town reads, they are usually far more accurate than my scum reads on average, although I do occasionally have a good beat on someone, and so I tend to focus on that. I mean I guess good on you for noticing the obvious pattern in my play and spinning it as if it means something. Sneaky.
I
Occam's razor is pretty garbage, as are all generalized uses of logic. You've seen everyone be wrong about everything a few times if you played with them enough. Also the instances where I am wrong for letting go of obvious scummy play in a vacuum actually hurting town is very, very low. I think I explained this somewhere recently about my blindspot theory, and how having a blindspot for very poor scum play is the best place to have it due to the team nature of the game. Either way though saying opposite logic failed me as a way to try to dismiss my logic on you is... pretty savvy, and not really something I'd expect someone just thinking about the game to chain together naturally. This feels very manufactured.
Basically guys stop with the proph crap, GJ is scum and you should be voting him instead. I cannot be the only one who reads into this.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
I don't have any other scum reads. Haven't even thought about other scum yet. I do have a few town reads though. I like town reads, they are usually far more accurate than my scum reads on average, although I do occasionally have a good beat on someone, and so I tend to focus on that. I mean I guess good on you for noticing the obvious pattern in my play and spinning it as if it means something. Sneaky.
I
Occam's razor is pretty garbage, as are all generalized uses of logic. You've seen everyone be wrong about everything a few times if you played with them enough. Also the instances where I am wrong for letting go of obvious scummy play in a vacuum actually hurting town is very, very low. I think I explained this somewhere recently about my blindspot theory, and how having a blindspot for very poor scum play is the best place to have it due to the team nature of the game. Either way though saying opposite logic failed me as a way to try to dismiss my logic on you is... pretty savvy, and not really something I'd expect someone just thinking about the game to chain together naturally. This feels very manufactured.
Basically guys stop with the proph crap, GJ is scum and you should be voting him instead. I cannot be the only one who reads into this.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2.
3. Your smugness is no more appealing than it has ever been, Iso. Engage me, don't get cute.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Attacking someone and defending someone is called playing mafia.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Also, can we please just focus on one person? We can figure out their possible scum relations when we actually know someone's alignment.
because there's a stump here where there used to be a
handtree---
I'm pretty sold on Proph/Chris after everything that happened on this page. GJ can wait until later.
Want to see a votecount before I move my vote.
unvote, vote Cyan
Oh, Seppel.
---
do you really believe that, seppel
(4) Prophylaxis - Azrael, Cyan, ZeDorkSlipeur, Iso
(3) Gentleman Johnny - Gentleman Johnny, Sir Chris, Wheat_Grinder
(2) Sir Chris - DCIII, Prophylaxis
(1) Cythare - Rhand
(1) Iso - Cythare
(1) Cyan - Seppel
With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.
we need a claim
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The other thing is that I come out swinging hard at Chris and Az for their approach to Proph and then... pressure just continues to build on Proph from several other players with no acknowledgement of my reasoning that I thought he was Town, which is typically not how it goes when someone is loudly pushing back on people scum reading a town player, especially a player like Proph. It doesn't feel like the game is treading carefully around him.
But Proph naked voting GJ and then unvoting him as the wagon builds and then shifting over to Chris as that's happening seems like a very atypical scum Proph move, though. If he's scum I certainly don't think he'd do that if GJ was scum as well, especially considering how much attention he drew to thinking GJ was townie when GJ was under heavy suspicion and questioning so many people on it. I suppose it's possible he'd do it if GJ was town, but then moving his vote to a town Chris if he was scum there also feels pretty unlikely. This is why Chris's question if he was scum with GJ was so bad. But him shifting the focus from a townie to a scum buddy like Chris who was pushing that townie also doesn't seem like his style. Maybe if he thought Chris could just shake it and it'd look better for Chris - but he knew Chris was on my radar so it doesn't feel like he'd think that was likely just to blow over quietly. Just going toe to toe with Chris generally there for several posts in the way that he did feels like a stretch.
I'd like to hear thoughts on the above from folks scum reading him. If I'm wrong about Proph then I think I'm probably wrong about Chris (see below).
--------------
It's not clear that you aren't scum reading Proph in #203. The only thing that's clear is that you don't think he's as scummy as GJ and that you think my approach to you is worse - but the post before you say you don't see town intent in his posts and ask if he's defending his buddy GJ.
This is an important reaction from Chris, because if he was scum with Proph and I'm accusing him of being scum for his reaction to Proph here, seems strange that he would go out of his way to say that he didn't think Proph was scummy when his previous posts don't look like he thinks that. He's telling me that he's not scum reading Proph when that doesn't really mesh with his line of thought prior. He'd basically have had to have asked lines of questioning to Proph looking like he was suspicious of his motives, only to immediately distance from those opinions when called on them, while also knowing that Proph would flip scum. Seems unlikely.
So about this... you're saying that good players can't generally be town cleared from one post, and you just liked Seppel's reasoning for clearing you based off of one post. And I've very little doubt that you'd think you could effectively clear Proph off of a post, just generally. And this doesn't go into or address the logic of thinking that Proph might be steering toward you as scum from scum GJ there, which I still think is a far fetched thought from a town you.
You're right about this point in that Cyan's content around you didn't say as much as I thought, it was more me filling in the blanks in my head, which I interpreted as him thinking you didn't believe your first vote (and that didn't come across as a joke), that you look defensive about the pressure, and that you were pretending it was a joke vote because you were taking pressure. And that the idea that you'd feel compelled to make a RVS vote as a joke felt phony because it doesn't seem like your style to be pressured into RVS.
One thing I'll note here though is that his use of "not pro-town" when describing your reaction seems like an odd word choice. Usually people use that to describe play that seems anti-town motivated and he's using it to describe a reaction which seems scummy, which are different things. Could be a semantics thing, but it's kind of bothering me.
I'm really hoping this is a fake reaction because what it boils down to is that you're insulted because I'm suspecting that you're mafia in a game of mafia... and you think my reasons are bad. If this is Town Chris - and you actually are insulted because you don't like the reasons for a read on you, then yeesh.
Ironic that this is your reaction when your main reason that you suspected me is that you're used to me voting you when I suspect you, which ignores all context around game states and is just bad.
Okay, but you don't know what he thought about it. He voted someone else so presumably you know that you aren't his top scum read, but that's all you know. Where's the curious Chris? You're upset that Cyan is calling you scum when you aren't able to parse his reasons but you weren't upset with Azrael's even more ambiguous reasoning. How do you know he tilted his head to the side and thought about anything and didn't just think Proph was so scummy that he had to vote him? He didn't give any indication of what he thought.
---------
What's the benefit of keeping tight lipped on your reads reasoning? That's twice now and I don't remember you doing that at all in Gatecrash, you were giving reads all over the place.
When there's four people on a wagon and you say it's infested with silly Town and that's all you say, how is that not meant to convey that you have town reads on those players?
If you're not committing to a read on Chris, and Proph is pushing Chris, and you think that Proph is scum for trying to direct toward the people on the GJ wagon who are silly Town, how should that not be interpreted as thinking that you think Chris is Town? Otherwise, you wouldn't have said Proph is trying to get us to look at silly Town, because he's voting Chris. It doesn't make sense that you'd demur here.
The wording around calling the walls of text around GJ boring feels off as well. It's like you're trying hard to appear casual and dismissive about it.
What's your opinion of Proph's scum game, generally?
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Which is why I ignored his second question after he didn't react the first time.
Town!Proph adamantely keeps on trying to solve the game even when he thinks he's going to be lynched.
Here Proph is stalling and throwing out questions he doesn't care about.
I'm flabberghasted that you try to play around that Chris. You're not town, are you?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You can do it without me. See?
I'm on the Proph wagon in spirit. I want to give someone else a chance to type an awful reason for voting Proph.
That would be nice of him
I'm bored with Day 1. Let's lynch Proph and reconvene on Day 2
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Reread Notes:
Sir Chris: Opens up with a "geeked out to be playing with you" to Az. Chris and Az open up with a bunch of weird openers at the start that I don't think they would take if they were scumbuddies? The "geeked out" part feels kind of genuine to me regardless of Chris's alignment though, so Chris/Az might be a soft unaligned pair. Next two posts are nullish, as his RVS vote makes sense if you ignore the "scum doing scummy things" part which Cyan and I both misunderstood. Has some interactions with me and refrains giving his Seppel read which he's beaten to death a bunch of times now. Now that I think about it again, I think that him not commenting on Seppel isn't scummy, but the way he complained about it felt like he was caught for the wrong reasons and is indicative of a scum mindset. He then calls Iso town (arriving to a similar read to me) but one thing that I found weird when rereading is this:
If you're town, why would you need to screen your own posts? Shouldn't you just post your unfiltered thoughts?
He has some pretty genuine emotional play with Cyan which again I think means that they are an unaligned pair. Null stuff with the "not reading" thing, but then we get to the DCIII counter response. One thing I noticed is that it's kind of weird that Chris goes "I'm not feeling frustrated at all right now!" with response to DCIII but then in his next post he's like "I'm not having a great time right now" which is an weird mood change. Another weird thing about Chris is his read on me. He goes "pretty off-putting" which gets quickly upgraded to a "I don't feel the town intent from you". He disappears over the weekend and now he's hard defending me which is a pretty radical read change.
@Chris - Why the 180 on me? Why did you go from "I don't feel the town intent from you" to "I don't know why a scum Proph would poke me with a stick like he did"? You can't possibly chalk up that to "I was frustrated". What in the past couple of days has had you townread me?
Conclusion: Several weird inconsistencies, screening posts, CFTWR. I still think he's scum in this one. I feel like his attempt to defend me is kind of like Cyan in xkcd, where he knows that his buddies are on the wagon but wants to distance himself from it because he knows that I'll flip town. Lynch him.
Iso: His Seppel vote post doesn't give much insight to Iso's alignment overall, but it did help me discern Seppel's alignment. Once again rereading I like the "I'm excited I would roll town" as I talked with Iso before the game started and we both mentioned how we wanted to roll town in this game. Plus most "I'm town" declarations tend to be from townies. Then there's the Az song and dance paragraph that I initially was positive on. There's also a mindmeld with Chris and GJ, as I was scumreading GJ around the time that post happened. We then have the "kill Cythare" stuff that I don't think Iso ever elaborated on. He then spars a bit with GJ. I think the paragraph where Iso talks about his early game play actually provides the key to Iso's alignment since it shows his mindset and thought process behind them. He pressures GJ a bit more which I feel looks good from both sides.
Conclusion: Iso's scum forte generally ends up being "quote strips until he gets pressured, then try to reread the thread posting notes" which I'm not seeing in this game. I think he reads town.
Gentleman Johnny: I've already covered this read but I'll explain it more in depth. His first couple of posts I really didn't like - his Iso vote was bad because he was voting Iso for "messing around" when the game just started to get out of RVS, and I didn't believe that Iso's questions were in any way shape or form messing around. His second post with the image felt a bit too cute/artificial and then he kept sparring with Iso which I initially thought looked good for Iso and bad for GJ. Then the thread started exploding and he posted post 154, which contained most of the townie things that my gut likes so I started to doubt my GJ scum read. Every time I've seen a 1v1 proposal on this site it's been declared by town since scum usually don't have the balls to call someone out like that. Then I started to get out of my confirmation bias and saw that most of his responses to Iso was GJ trying to understand where Iso was coming from. I do feel like GJ is tunneling on Iso, though, and I kind of want him to move on to other players - Iso's "what are your views on other players" is a good step towards that, though.
Conclusion: Currently strongest town read.
Azrael: Az is a bit of a wacky read for me since so much of his alignment depends on what Sir Chris flips. In addition the cagey playstyle which is much different from Gatecrash makes it difficult to get a read on him. The stuff on page 1 just feels so bizarre if they're both scum together. Some things I like is pouncing on the Sir Chris read for the post that I initially voted him before, and coming to the same conclusion on GJ after I did. Things I dislike are voting me (because I'm town) and the super forced "i'm scum guys" posts which I don't think were present at all in GTC. Overall I think I want to leave this read until Sir Chris flips, and re-evaluate. I do think that Az is the type of player who as scum runs out of steam in the midgame.
Conclusion: Based on what Sir Chris flips. If Chris flips scum, then I think I'm comfortable accepting Azrael as town. If Chris flips town, then I'll examine Azrael a bit more.
Seppel: We had the "I can read Az better than anyone else" stuff which I thought was a little out of place but ultimately not that alignment indicative. Already stated why I slightly townread him for post 40, though most of his stuff then has been null. The wall of text seems just kind of making noise and I don't think he would vote Cyan like that - it seems like a risky move for scum!Seppel to make with basically zero gain. He's completely wrong re: my alignment, though.
Conclusion: Weak townread.
Cythare: RVS stuff at the beginning - contrary to what Rhand says I don't think he slipped in #15. Scum slips are a lot rarer than people think they are. Votes Iso for pretty meh reasoning, though his responses to the answers are pretty generic and don't really tell me a whole lot. His reads post gives me mixed signals - it seems reckless as town to townclear a bunch of townies based off of a couple of posts, and having Iso and GJ both as scumreads strikes me as strange. The "get better at reading me" wrt Iso kind of gives me slight townie tinges though. I would really like him to chime on my wagon though since he hasn't done much posting over the past couple of days.
Conclusion: Not a whole lot yet. I'm notoriously bad at reading Cythare so some help on this read would be appreciated.
Cyan: He starts off by voting Chris, which I like, and his post 60 shows that he is indeed putting real thought into wagon placements and stuff, and I totally understand how he would come to doubt Az based on trying too hard. I really wish Cyan would be more specific though since he just quotes big posts and keeps stating that X person is scum, though that's more playstyle indicative rather than alignment. I also like the "Oh, Seppel" comment - feels very natural and genuine.
Conclusion: I had no read on Cyan before I looked at the game again and it turns out that I like most of his posts. Leaning town.
Rhand: The point where I started to scumread Rhand was his reasoning when he voted Az because the way Chris and Az interacted on page 1 gave me the exact opposite reaction. Reading the "whoever is most true gets postgame bragging rights", though.. I'm not sure if scum!Rhand would actually propose this? I don't see it entering a scum!Rhand's mind, exactly. Also @Rhand: The first question was rhetorical and the "why is Wheat leaning town on" I forgot since I couldn't access a laptop for most of the weekend.
Conclusion: Nullish. Had some townie and scummy stuff - this read could go either way.
DCIIII: Main way I read DCIII is look at his conviction of his posts and see if he really believes it. The main reason why I think DCIII is town is because he's echoing my thoughts on Chris but in a more elaborate way. He's the only one on Chris other than me, and that bodes well for him. Once again (I mentioned this in the Az read), want to see Chris flip before discerning other alignments. His thoughts on Chris also have gone from "poking" to "being more convicted" so I like that as well.
Conclusion: Decent town read. I'm confident I can catch a scum!DCIII and this doesn't feel like his scum game. I'll need to see Chris flip before I'm 100% certain though.
Wheat: I'm really bad at reading Wheat so this is the read that I'm most uncertain about. Based on a couple recent games (Final Fantasy) I think Wheat's just one of those players where I put in the "NEVER TOWNREAD" pile and get through PoE. I really can't get much out of his big stream of consciousness post since he does it as both alignments. The thing that I dislike from Wheat is the hesitation to be on my wagon and the GJ wagon push. GJ is pretty obviously town and I don't understand why town!Wheat waits for a votecount before voting me since he already thinks I'm scum. It reads too cautious.
Conclusion: I would normally read him null but I have a bunch of townreads which lands him into the leaning scum pile.
ZDS: Votes Cythare at the beginning, which can mostly be chalked up to a "I'm not familiar with your playstyle" vote. One thing I noticed is that he's mostly using meta shortcuts to get reads on players - Chris's play in Avant-Garde, for example, and Cythare's meta of posting a lot. He then starts up an junk vote against me, and I have to throw the ball back at him - his "Cyan, Seppel, Rhand" townreads feel too short and superficial to get townreads on all three. As a response to him: The missing post point from Chris is rather weak and I never intended that to be a major part of why I was scumreading him. I covered Seppel and Az.
Conclusion: I think he's the most likely out of all the people on my wagon to be scum.
I'm Susan, vanilla townie.
Please lynch Sir Chris after I'm lynched. I have a feeling that he's just trying to not dirty himself on my lynch which is why he shifted over to defending me.
It's hard for me to believe that a scum that is about to claim Vanilla Town(a claim that almost always gets a person lynched) would put that much effort into their 'as I lay dying' post. Maybe I'm getting WIFOM'ed here, but..I don't think so.
@ZDS: Why do you think that Sir Chris is town?
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#292 is probably Cyan's weakest post all game.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
People that ask about role flavor in today's mafia games don't get to call other people's posts weak.
It's the only counterwagon that can rise from Proph's post.
Not sure what to think now. I need to digest this.
Are you online Iso? Do you think a Proph/Chris pairing likely after this post form Proph?
I also considered, 'If Proph is scum here and gets Chris lynched, he's just going to get himself lynched tomorrow. Would a scum really 1 for 1 themself on the first game day?" And I came to the conclusion that a scum would likely not do this. I feel very good about my unvote.
Cyan, we're in an age of Mafia where scum will do pretty much anything if they think it won't get them lynched. You're drinking the wine. "Scum wouldn't claim VT and put a lot of effort into a post near death." Really? Because I can probably look back and find dozens of games in which that has happened.
yes and yes
Not if Chris flips scum.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
that's not how it works and you know it.
I am no longer town-reading Cyan.
@Iso - if you think Chris and Proph are scum together, what do you disagree with about my thoughts on that?
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
That's nice. I don't see what an experienced player, as scum, would think that claiming VT would get them out of being lynched. This very rarely works.
@Iso: I have no flavor.
Here's scum trying to cram the mislynch through without addressing the big post of mine.
This is a scummy post, through and through. You don't need meta to weigh in on Proph, you can do so based on the posts in this game. And no one said my unvote of him was 'suspect'.
Vote Az
No idea, as I'm pretty sure my eyes glazed over when I was reading the post where you posted your thoughts on that.
Remember that "succinctness" thing we talked about?
Considering I think Chris is also scum, why would that have any effect on me?
Also, that's weird.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Will post more in a day or so.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player