The only way SirChris is scum is if he mega-hard-bussed Rhand, but I don't think that was a smart move on his part if so. Nacho was more than likely getting lynched, meaning standoff at 6 depending on how Jobie went.
The only way SirChris is scum is if he mega-hard-bussed Rhand, but I don't think that was a smart move on his part if so. Nacho was more than likely getting lynched, meaning standoff at 6 depending on how Jobie went.
I also really can't see scum!Chris cop gambiting scum!Tordeck day 2. There's bussing, and then there's straight screwing your buddies over.
There's also basically no way it's Citric unless he and Jobie are playing the world's longest con, but that would have fallen apart had Jobie been lynched or shot by now (which seemed pretty likely).
So from where I'm standing, it has to either be Hooker or TS, and Hooker seems way more likely.
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The only way SirChris is scum is if he mega-hard-bussed Rhand, but I don't think that was a smart move on his part if so. Nacho was more than likely getting lynched, meaning standoff at 6 depending on how Jobie went.
I also really can't see scum!Chris cop gambiting scum!Tordeck day 2. There's bussing, and then there's straight screwing your buddies over.
There's also basically no way it's Citric unless he and Jobie are playing the world's longest con, but that would have fallen apart had Jobie been lynched or shot by now (which seemed pretty likely).
So from where I'm standing, it has to either be Hooker or TS, and Hooker seems way more likely.
In your position I would have the same reads as you just stated with HP>TS/SC>CB.
In your position I would have the same reads as you just stated with HP>TS/SC>CB.
Like I said, I really don't see scum!Chris behaving as he's done for the past few days. He basically threw Rhand under the bus when everyone was set to lynch Nacho and nobody had even noticed the discrepancy he pointed out. And with Rhand being the Strongman, getting rid of him before night with a Jailer alive is a risky move.
Similarly, on day 2, the whole "I have information confirming Tordeck is scum" gambit I also can't see coming from a scum/scum interaction. Or at the very least, they should have pre-planned it such that Tordeck didn't basically throw the day by voting someone else.
Also, while Iso games generally allow the last scum to NK and act in the same turn, this generally excludes extra kills. The scum-team getting a multi-shot extra kill in a game this size also seems questionable.
So both behaviorally and mechanically, I think he's cleared. So it's HP>>TS>>SC/CB.
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Looking at the scum roles, it seems like all of them are built to mitigate Town role abilities, A Ninja, a Bulletproof and a Strongman. I wouldn't be shocked if Iso built it so it's "powered town" v "**** wth the town mafia team".
The only thing I have trouble with is two people with Vig shots for the town.
I think HP is a better lynch from a behavioral standpoint, a design standpoint and a gamestate standpoint.
If we're still here tomorrow its going to heavily rely on who is still alive.
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Okay so this whole HP case is actually pretty bad on every level. First off the statement that behaviorally HP has been scum. The thing to consider there is that if you look at HP's past scum games this isn't her scum game at all. Like, at all. I went back awhile ago and looked at a town game from her and a scum game, and her scum game is stark. Like, she's actually pretty sane as scum. This is backed up by a dead townie who knows her really well swearing she was town up and down the sidewalk.
Secondly there is a line in Rhand's ill-fated claim of Watcher that screams Rhand trying to chain lynches:
We have waaay too many protective claims. Jailer/Roleblocker seem unlikely to be both true, and I wouldn't be surprised if on top of that also the Ascetic is scum.
2 vigs seems plausible with the mafia Bulletproof.
I can almost sense Rhand's avenue. Try to lynch the jailer, hey jailer flips, try to lynch the blocker next. Then he talks about Citric being an obvious scum role.
He doesn't mention the second vig at all or TS.
Okay so Rhand is down to Rhand and scumbuddy HP. He claims watcher. Does he really throw out a scenario right away to put scum buddy HP in danger? His premise was to feast upon town's doubt about power role breakdown. "jailer and blocker cannot co-exist." This feels ... predatory, dare I say it. I don't think Rhand gave out an either or scenario on his last remining scum buddy there. It doesn't make ANY sense.
On the reverse, before I pointed out Rhand's mistake HP was on Rhand with Nacho. What purpose does that serve scum? Nacho's lynch was signed and sealed for most of the day, HP had given ample suspicion of him, but she switched to her scum buddy instead? Why? And don't say WIFOM, because I am a crazy man in a box and she hasn't once defended herself with this tact at all.
I do not believe HP is a wise course.
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If I had to pick one scum right now... it would be TS.
My town tells on him are things that can fool me. I tried to read into Tordeck a bit for a scum buddy to shoot and came up with Hunt, so clearly my interaction reads off of Tordeck are not perfect. I thought TS and Tordeck had to be unaligned based off of day 1 but that might have been arrogant of me. In the end such an interaction read is pretty weak in the grand scheme of things compared to the townies remaining. I believed in it, but it isn't rock solid.
Also for as much as TS has posted, and for as good as he has sounded... he hasn't really helped us catch any of the scum we've killed so far.
Ika killed himself, pretty much, and before he got around to stabbing ika in the face here is a post I find interesting.
I don't want to vote Chris for Day one. He's one of the few really active players. I'm able to gleam more evidence off of him at the moment than all these lurkers. After day one finishes I will likely start hunting lurkers.
...He then proceeds to go after me for a majority of the remainder of the day. Generally when people let things go for day one they do so for more than an actual real time day, but TS doesn't seem to want to do that.
@Rhand- #32 and #46 makes a big deal about GJ's(dead TOWN) RVS #52 tries to recover (unconvincingly) as noted by GJ#54 and S.C. #55. #78 GJ calls out Rhand. #80 GJ puts pressure on S.C. to answer his defense of Rhand. #87 tells us why he is self-conscious #89 GJ stays on Rhand-points out 87 calls out Jobie. #125 Thinks Tordeck might be town, but questions why Annorax. votes GJ (dead TOWN). #144 Asks a question which Sepiriel already answered. #146 Backs off Sepiriel for meta reasons. #153 I like his town mentality here. #208 Says Toms is "leaning town". #214 Not liking Tordeck's "empty reads" (I agree). #254 IKA42 (dead SCUM) reads Rhand as town. #257 I like Rhand on Hunt here #307 Questions S.C. assertion of 1 of Tordeck/T.S. is scum but not both. #408 Votes Hans (dead Town) for not answering questions. #409 Calls Jobie out on kid gloves with hunt.
Verdict-Unclear, my gut says he's town and he's had bad reads to start off this game, but I can't dismiss that he might be scum trying to pick off town members. Tough to lynch at this point.
@Tordeck- #114 I feel you are piggy-backing onto Rhand and S.C. reasoning. But I do like you noticing Jobie's backpedal. #126 Filler question "Who do you think we should be talking about?" to Toms. #197 "GJ and Rhand seem town on town" "IGMEO Cyan". #226 doesn't like others "newb hunting". #291 Jumps on IKA42 #416 has Hans (dead TOWN) 2nd for scum. #439 "I am not VT" #440 Good question "Why is anyone reading Cyan as town?" Says GJ is town (correct). #469 ok with HP or Toms lynch.
Why is tom a top scum target for you?
Verdict- leaning town, but it's close. Could lynch if things change.
I don't have a "a-ha" yet or anything, I just wanted the two scum flipped after day 2's big post by him quoted here for reference.
In his write up of me he said he had bigger fish to fry and then votes Jobie. What I find strange about this is how weird it seems in hindsight for him to be up for possibly lynching tordeck while jobie is his main suspect. Then votes HP.
Then this interesting posts:
so S.C. has dropped into "likely scum" category for me. I don't like people lying as town. I think Tordeck is likely town at this point. His claim is solid. I don't like Nacho's play. He's been scummy ever since trying to white knight for HP(on command).
Jobie turned on Tordeck immediately which I didn't like.
Scum team is likely some make-up of: Sir Chris, Rhand, Nachomamma8, Jobie and Hookerpunch.
You know... if I am right that's a slip of the century, right?
"I don't like people lying as town" to the person he is calling scum.
That's... a slip, right? I mean I think I waved it off at the time, because I am stupid, but boy does that sound like a slip.
His next post:
@S.C. I like your read on Tordeck's reaction. He seemed to play it overtly cool for what was being said about him.
Mind you this is after leaning town on tordeck and calling me likely scum. Let me see what was in between that...
....Over a page, man that was a busy two days in thread.
Oh, wait.
Wildfire is not scum.
He does NOT claim "the vig" in a game where his scumbuddy is mafia BP. No way. Noooo way do I believe Wildfire is capable of doing that, nor do I believe it is at all smart mafia play.
Okay anyway so back for what I was looking for: my read on tordeck between those two posts...
Lots of vig discussion...
Ah, my lone post mentioning Tordeck at length:
The bold doesn't make sense together, as I cant' be scum if I lied as town! Also I am afraid you are going to have a very long few games if you always want town to be 100% honest. It is limiting town to be that way. Lies have benefits, as scum really don't tend to expect them and it throws them off guard. Also... Tordeck is in no way cleared. Do you know something I don't? The way he responded wasn't very good. Why do you assume it is a mislynch? Further though, I was never going to let him be lynched based off a lie, I even unvoted and stated I didn't want day to end. I mean really, stop your grand standing on the virtue that is "honesty", it's outdated.
Also citric it cost town like negative five for me to advocate for ika yesterday! More discussion that leads to dead scum is pretty optimal. We have this habit where we just like to hurdle towards lynches.
Also I am now certain I was roleblocked (or similar) last night, so... god Tordeck's reaction just makes sense from a scum who knows I am full of it but doesn't want to tangle with a member of town like that.
... Is that really the post that makes a town TS do a 180?
Hmm hmm hmm...
And then yesterday he did nothing to further a scum lynch at any juncture.
Goes from Nacho to HP to Nacho.
Also to be fair your reads have been off this game. I don't mean that as a slight. It just happens.
Could it be that you are wrong about HP as you were wrong about Hunt, etc?
I feel the scum mocking in this post.
Does voting Rhand come from a self-preservation mindset or a scum hunting mindset? No one else is advocating him as their #1 scum target but I can see you voting him because you A) Know that DC3 isn't a hot target (yet) B) you know that Rhand is on many player's scum radar C) You have a strong protection instinct on HP... D)we confirmed Jobie as Neutral.
I tell you what. Give me your most clearcut scum case against Rhand and DC3 as scumteam. Does it exist?
Secondly, you have a way with HP I want her to scum hunt. I don't see a scenario in which HP doesn't vote scum early and contribute + me not voting you. It's just not going to happen. I don't like the clique aspect of your interactions, it sets off alarm bells for me.
If those things don't get done you aren't likely to make it through the day.
See... TS has sounded good, when you're in the moment. It's like look at TS, he's giving opinions and stuff...
But boy has he been voting a metric crap ton of town every single day.
He has led to no breakthroughs and has nothing going for him other than the fact that he sounds good.
I would like everyone else's thoughts on this, as I think I might be going on an adventure.
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Maybe it is just because I am tired and at work but instead of looking at my mistake (thanks for pointing it out) maybe discuss my thoughts which I am clearly thinking hard on???
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Maybe it is just because I am tired and at work but instead of looking at my mistake (thanks for pointing it out) maybe discuss my thoughts which I am clearly thinking hard on???
I agree that if it isn't HP, it has to be TS. And your analysis of TS is rather convincing.
The thing I'm worried about though, is that if it's not TS, it's HP. And to the remaining people who don't have the benefit of my PM, it's a choice between HP and me. Given that, HP claims to block me, refrains from killing anyone, and then goes into tomorrow with her mislynch tied up nicely with a bow, securing a win.
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Wildfire I'd ask you to do the math on that scenario again.
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We were nice to Jobie and didn't murder his face at any point. We were kind to the survivor, if the survivor isn't kind to us well I'll write that down in my big book of mafia stuff I keep in my head.
(By the way: Wildfire isn't even keeping proper track of end game scenarios. If he is scum he has 100% fooled me I am never lynching him ever)
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My concern with Jobie is less "side with scum", since he has been playing the game as a townie throughout, and more that he's just a really clever SK. I've never seen a Survivor with a kill before, and that stands out as something really weird. If I were in his shoes as a SK, after Citric claimed the existence of a Neutral, I'd claim to be a one-shot Survivor and just bide my time. If we get down to three, he can shoot the scum, no-lynch, and then shoot the other player on the following day.
Maybe it's just paranoia, because I've certainly seen weirder things in an Iso game, but I just have a nagging suspicion there.
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If you were paranoid about that you'd be voting Jobie.
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If you were paranoid about that you'd be voting Jobie.
I mean, I'd rather lynch my primary scumread (HP) today so that if the game doesn't end, we have plenty of room to safely lynch Jobie tomorrow.
Regarding your behavioral analysis of HP, I do agree that her scumgame traditionally looks very little like her towngame and not a lot like this game. However, this game still feels "off" from her normal towngame. It feels to me like she's attempting to emulate her towngame (which is, after all, what a good player would do if they realized there were differences in their games) and just not quite making it.
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I'm sold on a TS lynch. We can sort out HP v WF v Chris tomorrow if we're still here. Chris is starting to give me a vibe similar to his game in Avant Garde, but I'm not sure if it's an attribute of Chris or one actually associated with his scum game. It's not something I'm wanting to worry about until we're at LYLO, I guess.
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HP that's not good enough at this stage. It's not obvious. And it is not flip flopping, that's an awful term. It's called considering reasoning. Explain yourself better.
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@HP: If you're town it's 1 in 3 entering the night following a lynch today. I'm the remaining neutral and you won't block yourself.
@WF (delayed response, sorry): If we lynch scum today and the game is not over, feel free to lynch me the following day. I don't think that's an issue right now though.
I'm content with moving forward with a TS lynch. Vote: TS
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HP I am not going to cede this lynch to your bratty behavior. Screw that. You do this right or you let me have my way. You don't get to sigh and do nothing posts. This is at the near of end game. You discuss this with us with logic.
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Citric I'd like you to re-read the back and forth between me and wildfire about vigs with a mafia bp flipped and let me know.
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It's apparent S.C. is going to play today with blinders on so we might have to lynch in spite of him.
Also don't like how Jobie went from saying he wouldn't vote me first and flipping to "I'm sold to TS" off basically zero action. He's not on our side. If we miss lynch today we will lose.
Luckily Wildfire is scum.
VOTE:WILDFIRE
@HP:In the future, please consider that not all players are willing to accept your play-style. There are times to just get in the fight and help us lynch.
@S.C.:Are you gonna scumhunt or fall prey to your own paranoia? There's a reason just about every player has said something along the lines of "TS would have to be master scum to not be town." It's not because I'm master town. It's because I've played in a transparent and open, engaging manner. For you to go back and cherry pick some god-awful posts and try to call that scum is below your level. I'd also think someone who has vig killed off two of our friends would be thinking more out of the box than you are right now. In any case if you want to lead this silly case against me you wont win.
I put a vote on myself to see reactions. I was out of new reads besides HP and Wildfire and wanted to see if Jobie would react and I think he did. Jobie's word can not be trusted. He's going to take the path of least resistance. Not that I blame him but he's not useful at this point.
@Citrusbase-Who are you scum reading at this point?
@S.C.:Are you gonna scumhunt or fall prey to your own paranoia? There's a reason just about every player has said something along the lines of "TS would have to be master scum to not be town." It's not because I'm master town. It's because I've played in a transparent and open, engaging manner. For you to go back and cherry pick some god-awful posts and try to call that scum is below your level. I'd also think someone who has vig killed off two of our friends would be thinking more out of the box than you are right now. In any case if you want to lead this silly case against me you wont win.
How am I not scum hunting. I was very against an HP lynch, and now you agree there.
So now its down to you vs Wildfire, so let's discuss things.
By the way and I'd like to honestly know this: am I the only one who feels the manipulation of events from this paragraph? He calls Nacho, someone who everyone was going to lynch today if I didn't vig him, our 'friend.' As if I somehow went rogue on that one. Also you accuse me of not thinking outside the box... but you are pretty much the outside the box thing. Also I find the timing suspect that HP wants to lynch WF and suddenly HP is town.
See this reads really bad to me. This reads as WF was considering turning on you, so let's get rid of him.
Like what has HP said since you last posted that made you think HP is town. Nothing about HP has changed. She has acted the same. So you claiming to have a revelation is just weird at this juncture. And unlike me, you didn't show your work.
Like, let's talk. I haven't even voted for you. You are accusing me of playing with blinders and I reject that narrative. I have given reasons for everyone left to be town, I am wrong on one of them, so I am discussing one right now. I want to discuss the subject of you because unlike HP and WF you've been pretty glossed over, and that's not happening on my watch.
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@S.C.:Are you gonna scumhunt or fall prey to your own paranoia? There's a reason just about every player has said something along the lines of "TS would have to be master scum to not be town." It's not because I'm master town. It's because I've played in a transparent and open, engaging manner. For you to go back and cherry pick some god-awful posts and try to call that scum is below your level. I'd also think someone who has vig killed off two of our friends would be thinking more out of the box than you are right now. In any case if you want to lead this silly case against me you wont win.
How am I not scum hunting. I was very against an HP lynch, and now you agree there.
So now its down to you vs Wildfire, so let's discuss things.
By the way and I'd like to honestly know this: am I the only one who feels the manipulation of events from this paragraph? He calls Nacho, someone who everyone was going to lynch today if I didn't vig him, our 'friend.' As if I somehow went rogue on that one. Also you accuse me of not thinking outside the box... but you are pretty much the outside the box thing. Also I find the timing suspect that HP wants to lynch WF and suddenly HP is town.
See this reads really bad to me. This reads as WF was considering turning on you, so let's get rid of him.
Like what has HP said since you last posted that made you think HP is town. Nothing about HP has changed. She has acted the same. So you claiming to have a revelation is just weird at this juncture. And unlike me, you didn't show your work.
Like, let's talk. I haven't even voted for you. You are accusing me of playing with blinders and I reject that narrative. I have given reasons for everyone left to be town, I am wrong on one of them, so I am discussing one right now. I want to discuss the subject of you because unlike HP and WF you've been pretty glossed over, and that's not happening on my watch.
"Our friends" meaning town. If you go back and read some of my posts near the end of the day you can see I was warming up to Nacho. I even mentioned to him that I wouldn't have been voting for him if HP hadn't come in to his aid at the time that she did. I also rejected a Nacho vs. DC3 lynchoff in favor of adding scum Rhand vs. Nacho.
You don't appear to be reading my posts closely. Didn't I start the day with a wildfire vote?? I later unvoted as I've had trouble this whole game accepting HP. It's an aspect of her game that just rubs me the wrong way and makes me feel scum is there but I have so many people saying she's being "normal" for her meta.
So when I change my read it's suspicious but when you change your reads it's "scum-hunting"? How about apply the same logic to yourself that you do to others.
Why would I ever apply the same logic to myself as I do others. I have to be suspicious of people, it's how mafia is played. I have to look into things, to try to find the truth. With myself I KNOW my motives. I mean if you are town fair enough, but I want discussion.
You don't appear to be reading my posts closely. Didn't I start the day with a wildfire vote?? I later unvoted as I've had trouble this whole game accepting HP. It's an aspect of her game that just rubs me the wrong way and makes me feel scum is there but I have so many people saying she's being "normal" for her meta.
I have told you that before and you scoffed at me. I can look this up.
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It very well might be nacho/HP. My patience has worn out on HP refusing to scum hunt as our active players are dropping by the wayside. Her play style is more and more a weakness (if she's town), as scum it's great for her.
Quote from Sir Chris »
I don't think so. The way Nacho talks about HP feels like absolute bait to me. Also scum can't help the ring of truth sometimes. Also if town Nacho just knows how to read HP. Yeah I think HP isn't scum. A tad frustrating, but I don't think a scum HP fits the puzzle pieces right.
Quote from TappingStones »
If HP is town, why does she refuse to hunt scum? She is worse than useless. I'd rather have it as a blank space than her.
Quote from sirchris »
read her scum games, TS. She scum hunts in those. It's not a tell. She doesn't scum hunt like we do because her brain doesn't function like that. Not everyone approaches the game of mafia in a direct manner. I mean in theory she could be scum, but history shows this behavior is not indicative of her alignment.
Quote from TappingStones »
So her "town read" is sit back and do nothing and hope we read her as town? But when she is scum she looks for scum? Why is this acceptable? Just lynch her until she helps the town win. She obviously doesn't understand the point of the game. Which isn't "just watch", if we don't catch scum we LOSE.
Quote from Sir Chris »
But if I don't think she is scum, am I not doing the same as you accuse her of doing? The point is not to teach people to play mafia, the point is to murder scum.
Quote from TappingStones »
If you are going to play with a group of people on multiple occasions it would behoove you to encourage productive habits.
Here is how silly your excuse sounds "When HP scum hunts she is scum (so lynch her when she scum hunts), when HP does nothing she is town (so let her sit and waste our valuable town slots).
Do you not see how much of a distraction she's been by refusing to participate in the town goal(scum hunting)?
My vote's staying where it is.
So after all of this... he snap votes Wildfire today. Then unvotes and says his votes will be HP and Wldfire, votes WF again.
Why did he town clear HP???
She has done nothing different today other than vote one of the people she has to vote.
I am so confused why a read that was so set would change because of this.
I am asking again for opinions from Citric, TS, HP, and WF on this matter. Speak to me.
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I went into this day thinking it had to be Hooker, as TS's behavior seemed much more Townie. He's certainly done a lot to sway me from that belief. It seems as though he not so much "towncleared" Hooker as he figured I'd be an easier target.
Unvote, vote TappingStones
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It very well might be nacho/HP. My patience has worn out on HP refusing to scum hunt as our active players are dropping by the wayside. Her play style is more and more a weakness (if she's town), as scum it's great for her.
Quote from Sir Chris »
I don't think so. The way Nacho talks about HP feels like absolute bait to me. Also scum can't help the ring of truth sometimes. Also if town Nacho just knows how to read HP. Yeah I think HP isn't scum. A tad frustrating, but I don't think a scum HP fits the puzzle pieces right.
Quote from TappingStones »
If HP is town, why does she refuse to hunt scum? She is worse than useless. I'd rather have it as a blank space than her.
Quote from sirchris »
read her scum games, TS. She scum hunts in those. It's not a tell. She doesn't scum hunt like we do because her brain doesn't function like that. Not everyone approaches the game of mafia in a direct manner. I mean in theory she could be scum, but history shows this behavior is not indicative of her alignment.
Quote from TappingStones »
So her "town read" is sit back and do nothing and hope we read her as town? But when she is scum she looks for scum? Why is this acceptable? Just lynch her until she helps the town win. She obviously doesn't understand the point of the game. Which isn't "just watch", if we don't catch scum we LOSE.
Quote from Sir Chris »
But if I don't think she is scum, am I not doing the same as you accuse her of doing? The point is not to teach people to play mafia, the point is to murder scum.
Quote from TappingStones »
If you are going to play with a group of people on multiple occasions it would behoove you to encourage productive habits.
Here is how silly your excuse sounds "When HP scum hunts she is scum (so lynch her when she scum hunts), when HP does nothing she is town (so let her sit and waste our valuable town slots).
Do you not see how much of a distraction she's been by refusing to participate in the town goal(scum hunting)?
My vote's staying where it is.
So after all of this... he snap votes Wildfire today. Then unvotes and says his votes will be HP and Wldfire, votes WF again.
Why did he town clear HP???
She has done nothing different today other than vote one of the people she has to vote.
I am so confused why a read that was so set would change because of this.
I am asking again for opinions from Citric, TS, HP, and WF on this matter. Speak to me.
I thought my meaning was clear. But unfortunately it wasn't. As I mentioned above, I've been troubled by the dichotomy of me feeling like HP isn't playing the game in a reasonable way vs. many people saying this is her normal town meta. I thought it over again and again and being that we are in a tight fix here decided to take Nacho, S.C. and others word for it that HP is likely town. Doesn't mean I have town cleared her, but I'd like to not screw up this game because I was the only player who couldn't let go of his hang up. If she ends up being the scum I can at least feel good that I was on to her and it was other town players that got me off the scent, for whatever that's worth.
I also find it intriguing that WF said he wanted to get HP today and then once a case was presented against me (albeit a mild one) WF jumps ship. Just a couple posts ago he said that HP is NOT acting like her normal town game. Insinuating what? He wanted to vote her and said she isn't playing like her town game...must mean he thought (on this very page) that SHE was scum. Now, somehow those things change and I am scum?
One thing you seem to be forgetting S.C. is that this is still my first full game. For some reason you think if I misjudge people or am all over the place with my reads that this is suspicious. I'm flying by the seat of my pants. Trying to encourage everyone to participate so I can benefit from the more experienced analysists. I think I'm doing a reasonable job of that. But in reality I've been trying to get through the chaos and have been pretty stoked throughout that we have nailed scum on each day. Again, you fail to give me credit for keeping the lynch discussion on Rhand vs. Nacho when I could have easily let it shift to DC3 Nacho, I also considered letting Nacho live and was happy to switch to Rhand once we had concensus as a team. And it worked, and it was awesome.
New developments are that I'm trying to accept your opinions that HP is town. I think WF is scum. I think you and Citrus are the closest to town-cleared that I'm going to have for the remainder of this game. I think Jobie is not going to be reliable for the end game. I think it was a mistake for him to jump out like he's doing today. Tomorrow would have given him a lot more leverage. I had been following Nacho's idea that "Jobie has no reason to go against town", but he's railing me pretty hard just several posts after he said "TS wouldn't be my first lynch choice." What changed? Pretty much nothing, if you look at the posts in between, have a look!
Anyway let me know if there is something else I need to make clear.
By the way...let's do our due diligence on WF while we are at it.
Believe it or not, TS, I am implying a huge compliment to you by considering you to be scum. I do not get paranoid of people I feel are unintelligent. You come off as absurdly clever in how you think about things, and thus I must consider this possibility.
So a problem I have with your explanation of you not having town cleared HP:
HP is town. Nacho was right. I was wrong.
This really, super reads like you've come to a personal decision on HP. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe its innocent. But it reads that way.
I also find it intriguing that WF said he wanted to get HP today and then once a case was presented against me (albeit a mild one) WF jumps ship. Just a couple posts ago he said that HP is NOT acting like her normal town game. Insinuating what? He wanted to vote her and said she isn't playing like her town game...must mean he thought (on this very page) that SHE was scum. Now, somehow those things change and I am scum?
Wildfire, what in this game that Hooker has done is not in her town meta to you? It's a fair point by TS. Why, before today, wasn't she town? Please explain your thought process.
One thing you seem to be forgetting S.C. is that this is still my first full game. For some reason you think if I misjudge people or am all over the place with my reads that this is suspicious. I'm flying by the seat of my pants. Trying to encourage everyone to participate so I can benefit from the more experienced analysists. I think I'm doing a reasonable job of that. But in reality I've been trying to get through the chaos and have been pretty stoked throughout that we have nailed scum on each day. Again, you fail to give me credit for keeping the lynch discussion on Rhand vs. Nacho when I could have easily let it shift to DC3 Nacho, I also considered letting Nacho live and was happy to switch to Rhand once we had concensus as a team. And it worked, and it was awesome.
See the problem with this paragraph, is its a very clever paragraph. You're a very clever person TS and I look forward to playing with you again, regardless of your alignment here. Misjudging people, sure. It happens. Mafia is a messy game. Reads all over the place, however... no. That's not a newbie mistake. That's a newbie scum mistake. As an example of contrast, Tom. Tom made it painfully obvious how he was feeling every step of the way. He was see through he was so transparent. See new players typically give themselves away by just... laying it all out there. Sudden shifts of opinion and things not quite fitting in retrospect really isn't something I consider to be town. The thing though is... if you are scum, you're the one who had to take it to the house. You had to set yourself up. If you are scum, by the way, you're transparent here. You are seeking the town cred you meant to gain by your actions yesterday and you calling attention to it feels blatant. "Damnit, I named my buddy! I wasn't town on town like these other dumb town, I am clever scum! Give me my due!" It's just how it reads in my head, I can't help it. Like I feel as if you are as clever as I think you might be, you thought you had it. I haven't tossed a single word of suspicion your way since day one, really. I am clearly a dominant figure in this game. You took a good stance on rhand, you didn't hammer nacho when you had the chance, look how townie you are!
By the way, on a note, Nacho has an excellent point: In a game of 16, with mafia having a strongman and there being a survivor who can side with scum, does scum really have an extra kill? That's a lot of killing power in the hands of anti town. 2 extra shots, strong man, survivor siding. That's insane scum killing power, on top of the behavior WF has displayed.
Anyway back to you, TS. You say you kept the Rhand thing going but you really didn't push it. You haven't pushed ANY of the scum. 0. Nothing. We had two people voting Rhand for the majority of yesterday and you never turned the tide. HP's vote being on Rhand is the only reason me catching rhand's lie was even possible. You then question HP about why she is voting Rhand. You do eventually turn on Rhand but as scum it's just pragmatic. You aren't even being DISCUSSED at that point. You just need to feed the machine and watch everyone fall down.
By the way, if anyone wants to defend TS please go ahead. This is just me thinking out loud. Help me see what I am missing, HP and CB. Talk me out of it. This is end game, it's time to be real here.
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Believe it or not, TS, I am implying a huge compliment to you by considering you to be scum. I do not get paranoid of people I feel are unintelligent. You come off as absurdly clever in how you think about things, and thus I must consider this possibility.
So a problem I have with your explanation of you not having town cleared HP:
HP is town. Nacho was right. I was wrong.
This really, super reads like you've come to a personal decision on HP. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe its innocent. But it reads that way.
I also find it intriguing that WF said he wanted to get HP today and then once a case was presented against me (albeit a mild one) WF jumps ship. Just a couple posts ago he said that HP is NOT acting like her normal town game. Insinuating what? He wanted to vote her and said she isn't playing like her town game...must mean he thought (on this very page) that SHE was scum. Now, somehow those things change and I am scum?
Wildfire, what in this game that Hooker has done is not in her town meta to you? It's a fair point by TS. Why, before today, wasn't she town? Please explain your thought process.
One thing you seem to be forgetting S.C. is that this is still my first full game. For some reason you think if I misjudge people or am all over the place with my reads that this is suspicious. I'm flying by the seat of my pants. Trying to encourage everyone to participate so I can benefit from the more experienced analysists. I think I'm doing a reasonable job of that. But in reality I've been trying to get through the chaos and have been pretty stoked throughout that we have nailed scum on each day. Again, you fail to give me credit for keeping the lynch discussion on Rhand vs. Nacho when I could have easily let it shift to DC3 Nacho, I also considered letting Nacho live and was happy to switch to Rhand once we had concensus as a team. And it worked, and it was awesome.
See the problem with this paragraph, is its a very clever paragraph. You're a very clever person TS and I look forward to playing with you again, regardless of your alignment here. Misjudging people, sure. It happens. Mafia is a messy game. Reads all over the place, however... no. That's not a newbie mistake. That's a newbie scum mistake. As an example of contrast, Tom. Tom made it painfully obvious how he was feeling every step of the way. He was see through he was so transparent. See new players typically give themselves away by just... laying it all out there. Sudden shifts of opinion and things not quite fitting in retrospect really isn't something I consider to be town. The thing though is... if you are scum, you're the one who had to take it to the house. You had to set yourself up. If you are scum, by the way, you're transparent here. You are seeking the town cred you meant to gain by your actions yesterday and you calling attention to it feels blatant. "Damnit, I named my buddy! I wasn't town on town like these other dumb town, I am clever scum! Give me my due!" It's just how it reads in my head, I can't help it. Like I feel as if you are as clever as I think you might be, you thought you had it. I haven't tossed a single word of suspicion your way since day one, really. I am clearly a dominant figure in this game. You took a good stance on rhand, you didn't hammer nacho when you had the chance, look how townie you are!
By the way, on a note, Nacho has an excellent point: In a game of 16, with mafia having a strongman and there being a survivor who can side with scum, does scum really have an extra kill? That's a lot of killing power in the hands of anti town. 2 extra shots, strong man, survivor siding. That's insane scum killing power, on top of the behavior WF has displayed.
Anyway back to you, TS. You say you kept the Rhand thing going but you really didn't push it. You haven't pushed ANY of the scum. 0. Nothing. We had two people voting Rhand for the majority of yesterday and you never turned the tide. HP's vote being on Rhand is the only reason me catching rhand's lie was even possible. You then question HP about why she is voting Rhand. You do eventually turn on Rhand but as scum it's just pragmatic. You aren't even being DISCUSSED at that point. You just need to feed the machine and watch everyone fall down.
By the way, if anyone wants to defend TS please go ahead. This is just me thinking out loud. Help me see what I am missing, HP and CB. Talk me out of it. This is end game, it's time to be real here.
The problem here is that I'm not scum. And yes I'm trying to show you that. You asked about my behavior and I explained everything and how I'm thinking about it. I already said I'm not good at analyzing yet. Hence my wanting everyone to participate throughout this whole game (I need the help).
Why is WF town? That's the question that kept coming to my mind. And in fact I can't find a good reason. He hasn't done anything to be towny and sort of lurks at times.
Jobie is an independent. His actions don't need to be explained. He wants this game over with asap so he can just win and move on. Notice how I haven't asked his opinion once today.
So Wildfire. I mean I am a little annoyed because I have gone over why WF is town in my mind like two dozen times (given my post count this may be literal) and you still find a single good reason? Really? Nothing I have said on the matter you believe is sound logic? NOTHING? Well geesh, I suck.
Also my problem isn't that you are playing poorly... it's I have an impossible choice in front of me.
Hell between you and me I am starting to wonder if CB has played us all and he is a scum scanner who scanned jobie indy night 1. It's crossing my mind a lot. Like welcome to end game Chris. I get super paranoid when I have nothing but town reads left. That is the situation I am in right now. I do not town clear to the extent I did everyone remaining lightly. I do not. I lean town on people. I make arguments for them. I let things go. But I flat out CLEARED you four. It's rare that burns me.
So I want more discussion.
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Jobie is an independent. His actions don't need to be explained. He wants this game over with asap so he can just win and move on. Notice how I haven't asked his opinion once today.
So Wildfire. I mean I am a little annoyed because I have gone over why WF is town in my mind like two dozen times (given my post count this may be literal) and you still find a single good reason? Really? Nothing I have said on the matter you believe is sound logic? NOTHING? Well geesh, I suck.
Also my problem isn't that you are playing poorly... it's I have an impossible choice in front of me.
Hell between you and me I am starting to wonder if CB has played us all and he is a scum scanner who scanned jobie indy night 1. It's crossing my mind a lot. Like welcome to end game Chris. I get super paranoid when I have nothing but town reads left. That is the situation I am in right now. I do not town clear to the extent I did everyone remaining lightly. I do not. I lean town on people. I make arguments for them. I let things go. But I flat out CLEARED you four. It's rare that burns me.
So I want more discussion.
You have nothing but town reads left, well at least that means we aren't sunk yet. This might sound stupid to you but I'm full town reading you and CitrusBase at this point because I don't think I can find the scum otherwise. There might be some 10% chance one of you is scum but I'm banking on my 90% read which is over with WF/HP. Everyone (except for WF who has mysteriously had a change of heart at an opportune time) tells me I'm wrong about HP...fine. That's on you folks if she is scum. I wash my hands of it. That leaves me with WF and he's acting shady today. Look again if you will. Compare his comments today and yesterday.
I still feel crappy that I didn't listen to my gut and try harder to clear Nacho. If HP hadn't jumped in and voted Rhand at the moment she did I very well might have cleared off Nacho (I said as much to Nacho in the thread if you remember.). I'd like to bring this home to do right by Nacho as much as for the other town players that fell by the wayside. It can still be done. You and Citrus are going to have to do some heavy lifting if we're going to navigate this day.
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I don't want to vote Chris for Day one. He's one of the few really active players. I'm able to gleam more evidence off of him at the moment than all these lurkers. After day one finishes I will likely start hunting lurkers.
To this stance on Ika:
He hasn't put much effort to the game. His posts are reflective of that. I don't see this as a slip
To this post going after me (note these are three posts in a row for him. He had no posts in between.)
I've been following Tom's ideas trying to make heads or tails of them. I think he's town. So I went back and looked at his case against sir Chris. Then I went through and looked at some of the strange things Chris has been trying to push.
#276 "Cyan you do not appear to be very interested in the game. What's up?"
If this had been other players they would have ben grilled instead Chris appears to be "coaching" trying to get a teammate's "head into the game".
#278 Some "softball" coaching questions. I'm very disturbed that the kid gloves come on when Cyan is playing lazily (badly).
#279 First sentence is BIG self-consciousness. "Ok time to make posts that make scum have to kill me night one"
Why would you be thinking something like this? You're giving reads. If scum want to vote you than this would help us find them if you are town,right? Instead you are so worried about protecting yourself that you write it for all of us to see.
Twice the pride, double the fall.
Calls Ikas "slip" gutsy... and then defends him against votes.
3rd Cyan scum buddies tell. Makes a point to tell us he would have voted off Cyan....funny thing is that Cyan did close to nothing to get back into Chris's good graces.
#284 Asks me what I've learned from him.
I haven't learned anything "from" you I've been learning about you and where you fall on the scum/town spectrum. It's great to have you around day one as opposed to getting rid of a lurker because you keep talking.
#286 Nervous about being voted.
#296 Is subtle...trying to get me to talk about how new I am (IMO). Insults me for asking others to share without doing extensive sharing myself. Well...yeah, I'm not experienced. I want to hear what others have to say. If I just started blabbing from the beginning you would say I'm being "newb town". If I talked too much you'd likely say I was bad scum. There's no winning when someone is being dogmatic in their thinking like you are currently showing. You say Tom is overcasting for new but ask me to post more....double standard much?
#302 Trying hard to get Tom off his scent. These last two posts were stronger than his early slips and errors. Trying to transfer Tom to either me or Tordeck (though he's obviously shooting for me).
Did I miss anything?
@Tom-What do you think of #296 and #302?
Now this was lost at the time because so much is going on. But he JUST SAID Ika’s play isn’t a slip. Right? And he listed nothing but negative things in this post. So let me highlight the BIG GLARING problem here.
Calls Ikas "slip" gutsy... and then defends him against votes.
… Why would this be a negative? He just said he didn’t think Ika’s post is a slip. If it isn’t a slip, why would he have a problem with me defending him? If you don’t think that post was a slip then you are going against the grain of opinion at that moment. TS and I were both saying it wasn’t a slip and yet he has a problem with me defending ika from votes. As if he knew ika was scum and he forgot he hadn’t bussed him yet. Seriously someone tell me I am wrong. This DOES NOT make sense from a genuine town perspective. You can have problems with me but he is attacking me for holding a stance he is holding which to me clearly demonstrates he wasn’t believing what he was saying, which is FIRMLY in the domain of scum.
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I cannot find a single bad thing TS has said about WF this game before today.
He had him as one of his highest town reads at one point, even, and has made no mention of anything.
... Yeah him voting WF today and the odd explanation of suddenly not wanting to push HP is just really weird.
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I also really can't see scum!Chris cop gambiting scum!Tordeck day 2. There's bussing, and then there's straight screwing your buddies over.
There's also basically no way it's Citric unless he and Jobie are playing the world's longest con, but that would have fallen apart had Jobie been lynched or shot by now (which seemed pretty likely).
So from where I'm standing, it has to either be Hooker or TS, and Hooker seems way more likely.
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In your position I would have the same reads as you just stated with HP>TS/SC>CB.
I'm pretty obviously town. Nacho said so
(I'm picturing Nacho as Kinzo and me and Beato in Alliance btw)
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Why might he think that?
Like I said, I really don't see scum!Chris behaving as he's done for the past few days. He basically threw Rhand under the bus when everyone was set to lynch Nacho and nobody had even noticed the discrepancy he pointed out. And with Rhand being the Strongman, getting rid of him before night with a Jailer alive is a risky move.
Similarly, on day 2, the whole "I have information confirming Tordeck is scum" gambit I also can't see coming from a scum/scum interaction. Or at the very least, they should have pre-planned it such that Tordeck didn't basically throw the day by voting someone else.
Also, while Iso games generally allow the last scum to NK and act in the same turn, this generally excludes extra kills. The scum-team getting a multi-shot extra kill in a game this size also seems questionable.
So both behaviorally and mechanically, I think he's cleared. So it's HP>>TS>>SC/CB.
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HookerPunch (2): Wildfire393, CitricBase (L-2)
With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
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@HP-I'm still waiting on your answer.
The only thing I have trouble with is two people with Vig shots for the town.
I think HP is a better lynch from a behavioral standpoint, a design standpoint and a gamestate standpoint.
If we're still here tomorrow its going to heavily rely on who is still alive.
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Secondly there is a line in Rhand's ill-fated claim of Watcher that screams Rhand trying to chain lynches:
I can almost sense Rhand's avenue. Try to lynch the jailer, hey jailer flips, try to lynch the blocker next. Then he talks about Citric being an obvious scum role.
He doesn't mention the second vig at all or TS.
Okay so Rhand is down to Rhand and scumbuddy HP. He claims watcher. Does he really throw out a scenario right away to put scum buddy HP in danger? His premise was to feast upon town's doubt about power role breakdown. "jailer and blocker cannot co-exist." This feels ... predatory, dare I say it. I don't think Rhand gave out an either or scenario on his last remining scum buddy there. It doesn't make ANY sense.
On the reverse, before I pointed out Rhand's mistake HP was on Rhand with Nacho. What purpose does that serve scum? Nacho's lynch was signed and sealed for most of the day, HP had given ample suspicion of him, but she switched to her scum buddy instead? Why? And don't say WIFOM, because I am a crazy man in a box and she hasn't once defended herself with this tact at all.
I do not believe HP is a wise course.
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My town tells on him are things that can fool me. I tried to read into Tordeck a bit for a scum buddy to shoot and came up with Hunt, so clearly my interaction reads off of Tordeck are not perfect. I thought TS and Tordeck had to be unaligned based off of day 1 but that might have been arrogant of me. In the end such an interaction read is pretty weak in the grand scheme of things compared to the townies remaining. I believed in it, but it isn't rock solid.
Also for as much as TS has posted, and for as good as he has sounded... he hasn't really helped us catch any of the scum we've killed so far.
Ika killed himself, pretty much, and before he got around to stabbing ika in the face here is a post I find interesting.
...He then proceeds to go after me for a majority of the remainder of the day. Generally when people let things go for day one they do so for more than an actual real time day, but TS doesn't seem to want to do that.
I don't have a "a-ha" yet or anything, I just wanted the two scum flipped after day 2's big post by him quoted here for reference.
In his write up of me he said he had bigger fish to fry and then votes Jobie. What I find strange about this is how weird it seems in hindsight for him to be up for possibly lynching tordeck while jobie is his main suspect. Then votes HP.
Then this interesting posts:
You know... if I am right that's a slip of the century, right?
"I don't like people lying as town" to the person he is calling scum.
That's... a slip, right? I mean I think I waved it off at the time, because I am stupid, but boy does that sound like a slip.
His next post:
Mind you this is after leaning town on tordeck and calling me likely scum. Let me see what was in between that...
....Over a page, man that was a busy two days in thread.
Oh, wait.
Wildfire is not scum.
He does NOT claim "the vig" in a game where his scumbuddy is mafia BP. No way. Noooo way do I believe Wildfire is capable of doing that, nor do I believe it is at all smart mafia play.
Okay anyway so back for what I was looking for: my read on tordeck between those two posts...
Lots of vig discussion...
Ah, my lone post mentioning Tordeck at length:
... Is that really the post that makes a town TS do a 180?
Hmm hmm hmm...
And then yesterday he did nothing to further a scum lynch at any juncture.
Goes from Nacho to HP to Nacho.
I feel the scum mocking in this post.
See... TS has sounded good, when you're in the moment. It's like look at TS, he's giving opinions and stuff...
But boy has he been voting a metric crap ton of town every single day.
He has led to no breakthroughs and has nothing going for him other than the fact that he sounds good.
I would like everyone else's thoughts on this, as I think I might be going on an adventure.
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I agree that if it isn't HP, it has to be TS. And your analysis of TS is rather convincing.
The thing I'm worried about though, is that if it's not TS, it's HP. And to the remaining people who don't have the benefit of my PM, it's a choice between HP and me. Given that, HP claims to block me, refrains from killing anyone, and then goes into tomorrow with her mislynch tied up nicely with a bow, securing a win.
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Of course, you're then depending on Jobie not siding with scum and not actually being a SK, but the odds are pretty good.
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(By the way: Wildfire isn't even keeping proper track of end game scenarios. If he is scum he has 100% fooled me I am never lynching him ever)
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Maybe it's just paranoia, because I've certainly seen weirder things in an Iso game, but I just have a nagging suspicion there.
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(I'll be back tomorrow)
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Uh? Is this TS giving up?
I mean, I'd rather lynch my primary scumread (HP) today so that if the game doesn't end, we have plenty of room to safely lynch Jobie tomorrow.
Regarding your behavioral analysis of HP, I do agree that her scumgame traditionally looks very little like her towngame and not a lot like this game. However, this game still feels "off" from her normal towngame. It feels to me like she's attempting to emulate her towngame (which is, after all, what a good player would do if they realized there were differences in their games) and just not quite making it.
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Seriously guys it's obvious and the fact that they're flipflopping is just ugh.
It's objectively a bad idea to lynch me, because if you assume I'm town, I can block someone tonight and possibly end the game on the spot.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
If I'm town, I have a one in five chance of ending the game tonight anyways
Either way, we're all gonna burn
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@WF (delayed response, sorry): If we lynch scum today and the game is not over, feel free to lynch me the following day. I don't think that's an issue right now though.
I'm content with moving forward with a TS lynch. Vote: TS
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Either way, we're all gonna burn
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We still have like 3-4 days
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HP is town. Nacho was right. I was wrong.
It's apparent S.C. is going to play today with blinders on so we might have to lynch in spite of him.
Also don't like how Jobie went from saying he wouldn't vote me first and flipping to "I'm sold to TS" off basically zero action. He's not on our side. If we miss lynch today we will lose.
Luckily Wildfire is scum.
VOTE:WILDFIRE
@HP:In the future, please consider that not all players are willing to accept your play-style. There are times to just get in the fight and help us lynch.
@S.C.:Are you gonna scumhunt or fall prey to your own paranoia? There's a reason just about every player has said something along the lines of "TS would have to be master scum to not be town." It's not because I'm master town. It's because I've played in a transparent and open, engaging manner. For you to go back and cherry pick some god-awful posts and try to call that scum is below your level. I'd also think someone who has vig killed off two of our friends would be thinking more out of the box than you are right now. In any case if you want to lead this silly case against me you wont win.
I put a vote on myself to see reactions. I was out of new reads besides HP and Wildfire and wanted to see if Jobie would react and I think he did. Jobie's word can not be trusted. He's going to take the path of least resistance. Not that I blame him but he's not useful at this point.
@Citrusbase-Who are you scum reading at this point?
How am I not scum hunting. I was very against an HP lynch, and now you agree there.
So now its down to you vs Wildfire, so let's discuss things.
By the way and I'd like to honestly know this: am I the only one who feels the manipulation of events from this paragraph? He calls Nacho, someone who everyone was going to lynch today if I didn't vig him, our 'friend.' As if I somehow went rogue on that one. Also you accuse me of not thinking outside the box... but you are pretty much the outside the box thing. Also I find the timing suspect that HP wants to lynch WF and suddenly HP is town.
See this reads really bad to me. This reads as WF was considering turning on you, so let's get rid of him.
Like what has HP said since you last posted that made you think HP is town. Nothing about HP has changed. She has acted the same. So you claiming to have a revelation is just weird at this juncture. And unlike me, you didn't show your work.
Like, let's talk. I haven't even voted for you. You are accusing me of playing with blinders and I reject that narrative. I have given reasons for everyone left to be town, I am wrong on one of them, so I am discussing one right now. I want to discuss the subject of you because unlike HP and WF you've been pretty glossed over, and that's not happening on my watch.
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"Our friends" meaning town. If you go back and read some of my posts near the end of the day you can see I was warming up to Nacho. I even mentioned to him that I wouldn't have been voting for him if HP hadn't come in to his aid at the time that she did. I also rejected a Nacho vs. DC3 lynchoff in favor of adding scum Rhand vs. Nacho.
You don't appear to be reading my posts closely. Didn't I start the day with a wildfire vote?? I later unvoted as I've had trouble this whole game accepting HP. It's an aspect of her game that just rubs me the wrong way and makes me feel scum is there but I have so many people saying she's being "normal" for her meta.
So when I change my read it's suspicious but when you change your reads it's "scum-hunting"? How about apply the same logic to yourself that you do to others.
I have told you that before and you scoffed at me. I can look this up.
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Vote:TS
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So after all of this... he snap votes Wildfire today. Then unvotes and says his votes will be HP and Wldfire, votes WF again.
Why did he town clear HP???
She has done nothing different today other than vote one of the people she has to vote.
I am so confused why a read that was so set would change because of this.
I am asking again for opinions from Citric, TS, HP, and WF on this matter. Speak to me.
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Unvote, vote TappingStones
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Why vote me twice? You only get one vote, no?
I thought my meaning was clear. But unfortunately it wasn't. As I mentioned above, I've been troubled by the dichotomy of me feeling like HP isn't playing the game in a reasonable way vs. many people saying this is her normal town meta. I thought it over again and again and being that we are in a tight fix here decided to take Nacho, S.C. and others word for it that HP is likely town. Doesn't mean I have town cleared her, but I'd like to not screw up this game because I was the only player who couldn't let go of his hang up. If she ends up being the scum I can at least feel good that I was on to her and it was other town players that got me off the scent, for whatever that's worth.
I also find it intriguing that WF said he wanted to get HP today and then once a case was presented against me (albeit a mild one) WF jumps ship. Just a couple posts ago he said that HP is NOT acting like her normal town game. Insinuating what? He wanted to vote her and said she isn't playing like her town game...must mean he thought (on this very page) that SHE was scum. Now, somehow those things change and I am scum?
One thing you seem to be forgetting S.C. is that this is still my first full game. For some reason you think if I misjudge people or am all over the place with my reads that this is suspicious. I'm flying by the seat of my pants. Trying to encourage everyone to participate so I can benefit from the more experienced analysists. I think I'm doing a reasonable job of that. But in reality I've been trying to get through the chaos and have been pretty stoked throughout that we have nailed scum on each day. Again, you fail to give me credit for keeping the lynch discussion on Rhand vs. Nacho when I could have easily let it shift to DC3 Nacho, I also considered letting Nacho live and was happy to switch to Rhand once we had concensus as a team. And it worked, and it was awesome.
New developments are that I'm trying to accept your opinions that HP is town. I think WF is scum. I think you and Citrus are the closest to town-cleared that I'm going to have for the remainder of this game. I think Jobie is not going to be reliable for the end game. I think it was a mistake for him to jump out like he's doing today. Tomorrow would have given him a lot more leverage. I had been following Nacho's idea that "Jobie has no reason to go against town", but he's railing me pretty hard just several posts after he said "TS wouldn't be my first lynch choice." What changed? Pretty much nothing, if you look at the posts in between, have a look!
Anyway let me know if there is something else I need to make clear.
By the way...let's do our due diligence on WF while we are at it.
So a problem I have with your explanation of you not having town cleared HP:
This really, super reads like you've come to a personal decision on HP. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe its innocent. But it reads that way.
Wildfire, what in this game that Hooker has done is not in her town meta to you? It's a fair point by TS. Why, before today, wasn't she town? Please explain your thought process.
See the problem with this paragraph, is its a very clever paragraph. You're a very clever person TS and I look forward to playing with you again, regardless of your alignment here. Misjudging people, sure. It happens. Mafia is a messy game. Reads all over the place, however... no. That's not a newbie mistake. That's a newbie scum mistake. As an example of contrast, Tom. Tom made it painfully obvious how he was feeling every step of the way. He was see through he was so transparent. See new players typically give themselves away by just... laying it all out there. Sudden shifts of opinion and things not quite fitting in retrospect really isn't something I consider to be town. The thing though is... if you are scum, you're the one who had to take it to the house. You had to set yourself up. If you are scum, by the way, you're transparent here. You are seeking the town cred you meant to gain by your actions yesterday and you calling attention to it feels blatant. "Damnit, I named my buddy! I wasn't town on town like these other dumb town, I am clever scum! Give me my due!" It's just how it reads in my head, I can't help it. Like I feel as if you are as clever as I think you might be, you thought you had it. I haven't tossed a single word of suspicion your way since day one, really. I am clearly a dominant figure in this game. You took a good stance on rhand, you didn't hammer nacho when you had the chance, look how townie you are!
By the way, on a note, Nacho has an excellent point: In a game of 16, with mafia having a strongman and there being a survivor who can side with scum, does scum really have an extra kill? That's a lot of killing power in the hands of anti town. 2 extra shots, strong man, survivor siding. That's insane scum killing power, on top of the behavior WF has displayed.
Anyway back to you, TS. You say you kept the Rhand thing going but you really didn't push it. You haven't pushed ANY of the scum. 0. Nothing. We had two people voting Rhand for the majority of yesterday and you never turned the tide. HP's vote being on Rhand is the only reason me catching rhand's lie was even possible. You then question HP about why she is voting Rhand. You do eventually turn on Rhand but as scum it's just pragmatic. You aren't even being DISCUSSED at that point. You just need to feed the machine and watch everyone fall down.
By the way, if anyone wants to defend TS please go ahead. This is just me thinking out loud. Help me see what I am missing, HP and CB. Talk me out of it. This is end game, it's time to be real here.
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The problem here is that I'm not scum. And yes I'm trying to show you that. You asked about my behavior and I explained everything and how I'm thinking about it. I already said I'm not good at analyzing yet. Hence my wanting everyone to participate throughout this whole game (I need the help).
Why is WF town? That's the question that kept coming to my mind. And in fact I can't find a good reason. He hasn't done anything to be towny and sort of lurks at times.
You also didn't address the Jobie turn.
So Wildfire. I mean I am a little annoyed because I have gone over why WF is town in my mind like two dozen times (given my post count this may be literal) and you still find a single good reason? Really? Nothing I have said on the matter you believe is sound logic? NOTHING? Well geesh, I suck.
Also my problem isn't that you are playing poorly... it's I have an impossible choice in front of me.
Hell between you and me I am starting to wonder if CB has played us all and he is a scum scanner who scanned jobie indy night 1. It's crossing my mind a lot. Like welcome to end game Chris. I get super paranoid when I have nothing but town reads left. That is the situation I am in right now. I do not town clear to the extent I did everyone remaining lightly. I do not. I lean town on people. I make arguments for them. I let things go. But I flat out CLEARED you four. It's rare that burns me.
So I want more discussion.
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You have nothing but town reads left, well at least that means we aren't sunk yet. This might sound stupid to you but I'm full town reading you and CitrusBase at this point because I don't think I can find the scum otherwise. There might be some 10% chance one of you is scum but I'm banking on my 90% read which is over with WF/HP. Everyone (except for WF who has mysteriously had a change of heart at an opportune time) tells me I'm wrong about HP...fine. That's on you folks if she is scum. I wash my hands of it. That leaves me with WF and he's acting shady today. Look again if you will. Compare his comments today and yesterday.
I still feel crappy that I didn't listen to my gut and try harder to clear Nacho. If HP hadn't jumped in and voted Rhand at the moment she did I very well might have cleared off Nacho (I said as much to Nacho in the thread if you remember.). I'd like to bring this home to do right by Nacho as much as for the other town players that fell by the wayside. It can still be done. You and Citrus are going to have to do some heavy lifting if we're going to navigate this day.
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Day 1 he goes from this stance on me:
To this stance on Ika:
To this post going after me (note these are three posts in a row for him. He had no posts in between.)
Now this was lost at the time because so much is going on. But he JUST SAID Ika’s play isn’t a slip. Right? And he listed nothing but negative things in this post. So let me highlight the BIG GLARING problem here.
… Why would this be a negative? He just said he didn’t think Ika’s post is a slip. If it isn’t a slip, why would he have a problem with me defending him? If you don’t think that post was a slip then you are going against the grain of opinion at that moment. TS and I were both saying it wasn’t a slip and yet he has a problem with me defending ika from votes. As if he knew ika was scum and he forgot he hadn’t bussed him yet. Seriously someone tell me I am wrong. This DOES NOT make sense from a genuine town perspective. You can have problems with me but he is attacking me for holding a stance he is holding which to me clearly demonstrates he wasn’t believing what he was saying, which is FIRMLY in the domain of scum.
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Another thing.
I cannot find a single bad thing TS has said about WF this game before today.
He had him as one of his highest town reads at one point, even, and has made no mention of anything.
... Yeah him voting WF today and the odd explanation of suddenly not wanting to push HP is just really weird.
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