This is going to sound terrible, but a couple game days ago I figured out that we couldn't lose given the town's game state so I just shrugged and did my best not to let that be known. It was a struggle because I knew that the combination In hindsight my claim was bad, but I thought I defended my point of view well. The second doctor showing up (I expected a body guard if anything) was like 'oh... ouch.' I am tired so I'll go into this more later, but I wasn't a fan of the game's setup in general. 3 in 16 is pretty cruel and having two roles to stop the undermanned scum team's only power. As a person who hosts quite often, just not a design that I like. Not even saying unfair, just... yeah.
I liked my scum game, objectively speaking. I feel I played a much better game between the lines (and also some of my night kill selections) than I did in Wu Tang and I just got tripped up by town having one more strong power than I expected. When I got my role PM for this game I reviewed Wu Tang and noted the flaws in the game. Once Cyan was a bit onto me he nailed that I would always be improving, it's true. I don't know how people are going to react to me my next town game, I feel as if this is going to be troublesome. Because I feel I did a great job of patterning how I interact with various town and scum compared to my town game. I am so getting policy lynched over this crap.
Shout out to KA who I feel did a great job of distancing himself from me and gave me a great platform to stand on. In death he served the scum team excellently, and I want to point that out even though he went out early.
Jobie it was fun being your buddy, and I appreciate that you thought I helped you so much. Scum should have a great give and take relationship and I felt we had that in spades. I noticed your game theory as scum was a little weak (you probably know what I mean when I broke down some of our planned actions in scum chat) but your confidence really made this game a no doubter because I knew even if I were to fall there was no way anyone was lynching you. Made the game boring, and that's the best type of game! I look forward to whoever gets scum MVP, I personally think they have a tough choice because imo (I tend to toot my own horn a little much when I am tired, sorry) we both had excellent games. GL!
More later when I am not exhausted.
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2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
I felt like you played a much better game in Wu Tang honestly. You had certain moments in this game that made me suspect you heavily, and the way that you claimed your second shot just made your entire claim look completely unbelievable. And I truly believe that you would have claimed that miss shot on Cantrip the previous day if you were town.
Well now that I have no reason to lie... I really wouldn't have. I might now as town in the future now that I understand that's how you guys do it, but I truly would never do that in my home community.
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Although I should stop referring to that place as home, you guys have welcomed me.
Also everything post vig claim was more or less me trying not to be bored with the game <_<. I know it sounds horrible but after a certain point...
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Yeah I understand what you're saying. It doesn't really matter. Even if I had put the screws to you and gotten you lynched today, I honestly don't think I would have ever worked out that Jobie was scum. He just seemed townie in all the right ways. I'll have to be wary of him in the future, it seems.
I'm just sad that I finally got to be town after basically 2 years of being scum(the 5 minutes I was alive in Iso's last game really doesn't count) and it went so, so poorly. Some of this stuff will be hard to mirror the next time I am scum also. :/
And that is why you don't clear people based off of meta... Chris ran the **** over this town based solely on the few meta pieces people clung to, such as his "tendency to bus."
You were all so close to figuring it out, but the four scum assumption just halted all progress.
Even if you nailed Chris like you should have, no one would have caught Jobie. Everyone was pretty much in consensus that he was top townie...
Although I did pick up on a new scum tell... Venn Diagram = Scum
Well played scum team, you all deserve the win.
@Cyan: See, there was a reason I was night killed night one.
There there Plow, don't be too hard on yourself. Many a town member in my years of playing has defended me. I don't think you played poorly, I just met expectations.
I am actually grateful that people think they have a bead on me, it makes it easier to not be lynched on sight as town! That started to become a problem because everyone was just baffled by my scum game for a period of like five years, I am sure someone like Seppel will slay scum chris in no time, I'll be on my toes.
Also to be fair I totally bussed KA, so that's someone I bussed, totally counts. Yeah I have no idea why people expected me to adhere strictly to my meta of one game. I think one of my problems in Wu Tang, that maybe only I see from being inside of my head, is I was far too clean. I stated on the scum board and I meant it that I didn't want to be so clean this game. I welcomed suspicion because imo earnest town members tend to gather some of that. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried to remake the wheel though, even though it all worked out in the end.
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2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
If you protected Chris because he was the vig, it was the right choice. Protecting the masons is pretty much the only other reasonable choice.
Post-mortem:
I played like crap, and since I used to play well it's driving me batty that I keep playing poorly.
I need a break or to get better or something.
Despite that, I did correctly name Cantrip as town, as well as naming Chris and Jobie scum (though I have to admit this was not from their actions but rather from PoE and modgaming); as far as the endgame goes, I was only wrong about Cyan.
The problem with Cyan is now that I can't tell when he's playing like crap as town or like crap as scum. Maybe it's whenever he admits he's playing like crap, then he's town, but whenever he says he's playing well when he's not, then he's scum?
Even if you nailed Chris like you should have, no one would have caught Jobie. Everyone was pretty much in consensus that he was top townie...
Although I did pick up on a new scum tell... Venn Diagram = Scum
regardless of my alignment, I'm going to continue using venn diagrams. I track voted in a spreadsheet for my notes so its easy to group people by voting tendencies and based off their voting behavior evaluate their alignment paired with their posting behavior. I was doing this a bit before I retired but I'm still iterating my sheet.
@Seppel: you should go find a link to my notes in scum chat and see what I have your claim listed as on Day 3. I think you'll find it funny.
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Oh, another thing that bothered me about the setup: Vig was basically a horrible claim in the setup, but it was expected (and even applauded) that the scum vig would use the vig claim to their advantage when in reality it was a trap.
Sorry if I am coming off very negative about the setup, I don't mean to be a downer, this one was just... a bit strange. I feel like the proper way to play this game as scum was very counter intuitive (just all claim vanilla and pray)
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2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
Even if you nailed Chris like you should have, no one would have caught Jobie. Everyone was pretty much in consensus that he was top townie...
Although I did pick up on a new scum tell... Venn Diagram = Scum
regardless of my alignment, I'm going to continue using venn diagrams. I track voted in a spreadsheet for my notes so its easy to group people by voting tendencies and based off their voting behavior evaluate their alignment paired with their posting behavior. I was doing this a bit before I retired but I'm still iterating my sheet.
@Seppel: you should go find a link to my notes in scum chat and see what I have your claim listed as on Day 3. I think you'll find it funny.
I suggest you do continue! It definitely helped the townie cause, and I am really just joking about it being a scum tell. I also saw the flowchart in the scum chat, which made me smile. You sir must have a business degree of some kind. lol
Even if you nailed Chris like you should have, no one would have caught Jobie. Everyone was pretty much in consensus that he was top townie...
Although I did pick up on a new scum tell... Venn Diagram = Scum
regardless of my alignment, I'm going to continue using venn diagrams. I track voted in a spreadsheet for my notes so its easy to group people by voting tendencies and based off their voting behavior evaluate their alignment paired with their posting behavior. I was doing this a bit before I retired but I'm still iterating my sheet.
@Seppel: you should go find a link to my notes in scum chat and see what I have your claim listed as on Day 3. I think you'll find it funny.
I suggest you do continue! It definitely helped the townie cause, and I am really just joking about it being a scum tell. I also saw the flowchart in the scum chat, which made me smile. You sir must have a business degree of some kind. lol
Chemical Engineering, far superior to business, but similar love for flow charts and visual representations of data.
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Sir Chris, this game is once again a testimony why I don't trust you no matter how town you seem like.
According to some people I had quite a few cracks here and there. You should just listen to them and trust me, it can't lead to anything bad =).
I am a very trustworthy person!
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2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
Sir Chris, this game is once again a testimony why I don't trust you no matter how town you seem like.
According to some people I had quite a few cracks here and there. You should just listen to them and trust me, it can't lead to anything bad =).
I am a very trustworthy person!
You are one of my favorites Sir Chris.
I wouldn't say there were cracks; why they should have nailed you in the end was mostly due to your role.
The only thing I could see otherwise was your apathy towards the game; it seemed you almost felt bad for winning so easily. lol
But I also had the luxury of inside information for a while... so that could have tainted my view.
Yeah that's not alignment: new WoW raid (I raided 2 weeks straight :X) plus I started a new job. I just had to put this on a back burner. You can just take my word that it isn't alignment related, I love being scum!
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2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Oh, another thing that bothered me about the setup: Vig was basically a horrible claim in the setup, but it was expected (and even applauded) that the scum vig would use the vig claim to their advantage when in reality it was a trap.
Sorry if I am coming off very negative about the setup, I don't mean to be a downer, this one was just... a bit strange. I feel like the proper way to play this game as scum was very counter intuitive (just all claim vanilla and pray)
You could say it was...avant-garde. As to the things you mentioned, the way I build setups that aren't all 'just power role ****jams' is that they have an ebb and flow to them, and a puzzle for the communal teams to solve for their benefit.
Your vig claim was not certainly a trap--it let you lead and be passed over as town for most of the game, but it definitely was a double-edged sword in the endgame.
I respectfully disagree in terms of my vig claim being a help. I claimed Vig fairly late into the game, and was only not suspected until Plow had claimed as well. By the time I claimed vig I was not heavily suspected based off of merit, the vig claim just fit into the game's balance perception at the time until it didn't. Also with the small scum team this game was almost certainly going to get to some sort of end game scenario unless scum played flawlessly and town played completely hopelessly. I think one thing that could have made this setup better is probably a janitor so that the power structure of the game was in doubt for town. I feel combined with the small scum team and the at odds town vs scum setup it gave town a lot of advantages when it came to claims and problem solving the setup.
Mind you this is purely academic at this point, I don't feel... disenfranchised by the setup or anything such as that, merely thought exercise for game balance.
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2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
I think Seppel needs to be our NK because I don't think we can parlay a lynch of him after a mass claim which we're almost certainly looking at tomorrow. I honestly think he's some sort of investigation role. He backed off of Plow after being hard on him Day 1, and has backed off Cyan since Night 2.
Mission accomplished!
Also I found this gem:
Quote from B_E in scumchat »
Oh dear Seppel has caught KA based on his interactions with Chris
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
I liked my scum game, objectively speaking. I feel I played a much better game between the lines (and also some of my night kill selections) than I did in Wu Tang and I just got tripped up by town having one more strong power than I expected. When I got my role PM for this game I reviewed Wu Tang and noted the flaws in the game. Once Cyan was a bit onto me he nailed that I would always be improving, it's true. I don't know how people are going to react to me my next town game, I feel as if this is going to be troublesome. Because I feel I did a great job of patterning how I interact with various town and scum compared to my town game. I am so getting policy lynched over this crap.
Shout out to KA who I feel did a great job of distancing himself from me and gave me a great platform to stand on. In death he served the scum team excellently, and I want to point that out even though he went out early.
Jobie it was fun being your buddy, and I appreciate that you thought I helped you so much. Scum should have a great give and take relationship and I felt we had that in spades. I noticed your game theory as scum was a little weak (you probably know what I mean when I broke down some of our planned actions in scum chat) but your confidence really made this game a no doubter because I knew even if I were to fall there was no way anyone was lynching you. Made the game boring, and that's the best type of game! I look forward to whoever gets scum MVP, I personally think they have a tough choice because imo (I tend to toot my own horn a little much when I am tired, sorry) we both had excellent games. GL!
More later when I am not exhausted.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Also everything post vig claim was more or less me trying not to be bored with the game <_<. I know it sounds horrible but after a certain point...
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
I'm just sad that I finally got to be town after basically 2 years of being scum(the 5 minutes I was alive in Iso's last game really doesn't count) and it went so, so poorly. Some of this stuff will be hard to mirror the next time I am scum also. :/
Boo I can't read Jobie.
I also couldn't believe that there were only 3 scum. What a weird setup.
Thank god it's over. I'm not sure it's gonna replace my old negative mafia score though.
You were all so close to figuring it out, but the four scum assumption just halted all progress.
Even if you nailed Chris like you should have, no one would have caught Jobie. Everyone was pretty much in consensus that he was top townie...
Although I did pick up on a new scum tell... Venn Diagram = Scum
Well played scum team, you all deserve the win.
@Cyan: See, there was a reason I was night killed night one.
Modern
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Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
I am actually grateful that people think they have a bead on me, it makes it easier to not be lynched on sight as town! That started to become a problem because everyone was just baffled by my scum game for a period of like five years, I am sure someone like Seppel will slay scum chris in no time, I'll be on my toes.
Also to be fair I totally bussed KA, so that's someone I bussed, totally counts. Yeah I have no idea why people expected me to adhere strictly to my meta of one game. I think one of my problems in Wu Tang, that maybe only I see from being inside of my head, is I was far too clean. I stated on the scum board and I meant it that I didn't want to be so clean this game. I welcomed suspicion because imo earnest town members tend to gather some of that. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried to remake the wheel though, even though it all worked out in the end.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Post-mortem:
I played like crap, and since I used to play well it's driving me batty that I keep playing poorly.
I need a break or to get better or something.
Despite that, I did correctly name Cantrip as town, as well as naming Chris and Jobie scum (though I have to admit this was not from their actions but rather from PoE and modgaming); as far as the endgame goes, I was only wrong about Cyan.
The problem with Cyan is now that I can't tell when he's playing like crap as town or like crap as scum. Maybe it's whenever he admits he's playing like crap, then he's town, but whenever he says he's playing well when he's not, then he's scum?
i don't wanna give up my "can read cyan" card
@Seppel: you should go find a link to my notes in scum chat and see what I have your claim listed as on Day 3. I think you'll find it funny.
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
Sorry if I am coming off very negative about the setup, I don't mean to be a downer, this one was just... a bit strange. I feel like the proper way to play this game as scum was very counter intuitive (just all claim vanilla and pray)
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
I suggest you do continue! It definitely helped the townie cause, and I am really just joking about it being a scum tell. I also saw the flowchart in the scum chat, which made me smile. You sir must have a business degree of some kind. lol
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
Wheat, you kept amusing me (and apparently Proph too) to no ends, thanks to quotes like this:
Cyan:
Jobie, you are my hero. Those charts...
Sir Chris, this game is once again a testimony why I don't trust you no matter how town you seem like.
Thanks for Natirasha for letting me co-host this game with her.
Others: Thanks for playing.
(Also, I wonder if anyone realised where all that Role PM flavour was ripped off from...)
According to some people I had quite a few cracks here and there. You should just listen to them and trust me, it can't lead to anything bad =).
I am a very trustworthy person!
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
It's going to take more games to ascertain this, really. But I'm very interested in playing with you again and working it out.
You are one of my favorites Sir Chris.
I wouldn't say there were cracks; why they should have nailed you in the end was mostly due to your role.
The only thing I could see otherwise was your apathy towards the game; it seemed you almost felt bad for winning so easily. lol
But I also had the luxury of inside information for a while... so that could have tainted my view.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You could say it was...avant-garde. As to the things you mentioned, the way I build setups that aren't all 'just power role ****jams' is that they have an ebb and flow to them, and a puzzle for the communal teams to solve for their benefit.
Your vig claim was not certainly a trap--it let you lead and be passed over as town for most of the game, but it definitely was a double-edged sword in the endgame.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Mind you this is purely academic at this point, I don't feel... disenfranchised by the setup or anything such as that, merely thought exercise for game balance.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Mission accomplished!
Also I found this gem:
Rather disappointed that Cyan wasn't scum.
Next time, Gadget. Next time!
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
I calmed down about the league. I still think my last game infraction scores were uncalled for, but I'll be part of the league again.