The only thing you say about her that's scummy is that she looks like the buddy of someone you think is town. Why does that even come near enough for a "IGMEOY"?
How is this line of questioning going to tell you anything about Tammy's alignment?
#1: Last time I checked, IGMEOY stands for "I got me eyes on you". I clearly stated I'd be paying closer attention to Tammy.
#2: Since I don't know almost anyone here, asking people I don't know questions and trying to get to know them and their thought process seems like a good idea.
I didn't see your reasoning for these two, mind letting me in?
@HP: So, Tammy is both good at manipulating and and winning "I'm obvtown more than you" -fights? To me it sounds like Tammy's alignment can be really hard to figure out and more the reason to scrutinize her well... Please correct me if I got this one wrong, but it seems like your logic has a hole in it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
The only thing you say about her that's scummy is that she looks like the buddy of someone you think is town. Why does that even come near enough for a "IGMEOY"?
How is this line of questioning going to tell you anything about Tammy's alignment?
#1: Last time I checked, IGMEOY stands for "I got me eyes on you". I clearly stated I'd be paying closer attention to Tammy.
There's an implication with IGMEOY that it's because you think something he/she has done is scummy.
@HP: So, Tammy is both good at manipulating and and winning "I'm obvtown more than you" -fights? To me it sounds like Tammy's alignment can be really hard to figure out and more the reason to scrutinize her well... Please correct me if I got this one wrong, but it seems like your logic has a hole in it.
This is the first thing of yours I've read that I've actually liked.
It does seem like Hooker wasted some potential here, but it's also highly likely that she's town. Scum don't gambit with such an easily tested claim...it's 98% likely that it'll be tested. That said, it's probably the right play to test it toDay, regardless.
Oh. Now we got to the point where you are making stuff up? Throwing up made-up numbers and percentages are a good way to make it sound you are putting thought into the game when you aren't.
1) "Got to the point" implies that there was something already going on. But this is the first time you've interacted with Cantrip.
2) Are you calling Cantrip out or not? It sure seems like you're calling him scummy, but then you don't actually say it, and you don't follow up in subsequent posts.
I didn't see your reasoning for these two, mind letting me in?
Rai wanted to wait on lynching HP at first, citing that he wanted more people to post. Once most people posted saying they were fine with testing it, suddenly Rai wants on board. I feel like he waited until the end and then just sheeped the town.
Tammy stated that it was very possibly a bad idea to lynch HP...but then she said something to the effect of "well I GUESS we can go ahead on it..." which felt very fencesitty and also like a sort of hedged bet.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
2) Are you calling Cantrip out or not? It sure seems like you're calling him scummy, but then you don't actually say it, and you don't follow up in subsequent posts.
No, I'm not calling him mafia, if that's what you are asking. I don't like his posts and want to take a closer look at them, but I want to focus on others (eg. Tammy) first.
And then, this:
In all the games I've played at least, an unCC'ed claim has usually ensured that that person avoids being lynched for a while as the town don't want to get rid of a PR. If scum can soft claim and avoid a CC that sets them up favorably in that respect.
Mind elaborating this one too? I assume "CC" means "Counterclaim", but I still can't follow your logic on this one...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
There's something about the Tammy/Tan interaction that I don't really care for but I'm having trouble putting my finger on. Something about the way in which she's approaching him that says "I'm suspicious of you" but doesn't really seem to be committed to it. It's like... it feels like an obligation to debate him - and the conclusion is a pretty damning one (that he wasn't making an honest case on her and smelled blood in the water after the Wildfire post) but doesn't follow it up with a vote which, conservative about voting or no, is a conclusion I'd expect to follow with a vote. Also, in a 21 person game, one post from Wildfire is enough to smell blood in the water? That part of the conclusion feels contrived and like an add-on considering she could have just said that his case wasn't honest.
I don't understand your "obligated to debate". Are you suggesting I should have ignored his post to me and his misconstruing of my post? He literally questioned something I clearly posted in that post and misinterpreted either on purpose or by mistake my point in the post. Interacting with people is how I get my best reads, so I'm not sure what the problem with that is.
A vote would indicate I think he's scum. I'm not sure I think that. I think he's suspicious. I think it's suspicious that he came into the game, missed that hookers claim had already been tested and didn't interact with anything else beyond my post, which was a terrible interpretation. However, it's my post he misinterpreted, so I know what I meant. There is the possibility he made a mistake; the purpose of interacting with him is to figure that out.
Maybe you would vote after making that post, it doesn't mean I would. And as far as I'm concerned a vote in that situation, where he's already had a case against him he's going to have to answer to, has the potential to muddy our interactions.
That, and half this game feels a murky blend to me. It will probably take me a couple days to sort out the people here, and until I feel I have a grasp and am not confusing everyone here save a few people I won't be voting unless I feel I have a solid lead which I don't right now.
As far as the end, it was kinda tacked on. It is a potential reason for his post but I'm interested in something there, but I actually kinda like that you picked up on that.
Tam-Tam is town! She's doing exactly as Tammy does!
<3
~~~
Rhand - I'm on my iPad so I'm not going to tear down your wall and you people quote stripe too much here anyway, but no I was fine with what you posted about why you thought Arian was town. It gave me a leaning town read on you as well.
~~~
I'm not getting the suspicion on lngr for the soft claim.
@Tammy: some of this is Salvation meta. I'm assuming that you're from 'scum (low post count, friends with Hooker/Nati?). 'Round these parts, miller isn't a terribly uncommon claim, and whenever there's a claimed miller, they're almost always vigged N1. That's probably one reason why you see the discrepancy between how HP's claim / my claim unfolded.
Thank you. I was not aware of that. You've just saved me from chasing shadows by going back and seeing how the claims were treated differently and why. Yes, I come from mafia scum. Well my homesite is westeros; that's where I'm really from. Millers are not vigged on sight on either sites, are not automatically lynched either, and in several instances have been scum fake claims who have gone on to win the game due to it.
192 in particular, the sarcasm at the front of the post feels so... unnecessary and fake.
Then she goes on to say "well I checked MY TOWN ROLE PM and I don't see the same thing as you."
- Not only is she saying in big bold letters "HEY EVERYONE I HAVE A TOWN ROLE PM! BELIEVE ME!" but she also goes on to cast doubt on Rhand and makes it sound like she thinks Rhand is scummy, just after acknowledging and saying "I know you looked at your town role pm and saw something, but I looked at my town role pm and didn't." - the key point being, she makes Rhand out to be scummy after noting and believing that Rhand looked at a town role pm.
Unvote.
Vote: Kitty
I don't get this. Kitty is probably my strongest town read besides nati, and I don't think that's what she was doing at all.
Please explain further. I haven't seen Tammy at all before.
*puts on my professor glasses*
Part of this is the divide between MTGS and Mafiascum--by and large, this site is all about interaction analysis and generally downplays the intangible, emotional game. At mafiascum, the opposite is true and interaction analysis is by and large gone by the wayside(some would say this is a reason for the increasingly lower skill level there vs here, and I guess I don't disagree). Anyways, Tammy is known as one of the most 'obvtown' players on the site--a lot of time games there devolve into 'I'm obvtown' 'no you, I'm more obvtown'. Well, Tammy is the best at that slapfight. And, for the most part, people give her a freepass due to that.
The joke being she is actually really good at manipulating that(the lady has not lost a scum game in two years over at least three websites!). But, anyways, we spoke at large quite a bit over the last month, and, well, I figured she would approach this game a lot more methodical than scatterbrained. And, for the most part, her first two posts show off the sort of methodicalness I expected in a context, she honed in on the same things I did(see: Killjoy), and was generally expected as town.
Awe thank you. I certainly feel scattered right now though! (But speaking of scatterbrained, funny story, last game at westeros a newer player was talking to me in the dead thread and he was like 'Tammy I haven't understood why people think you're town so fast because your scattered, ADD approach to the game looks so fake to me, but then you came in day two and started analyzing players and posted that case against nacho and I realized you are actually a good player.' I think I had been killed night one the past few games there, so all he had ever seen was scattered. Anyway that didn't really have a point but it was the first time someone had used those terms to describe my early play and it made me laugh.)
~~~
Okay I love the smell of newb paranoia in the morning. Bur - I'm not going to step into the middle of the nati talks about Tammy convo, but I actually think I'm extremely easy to read. But scrutinize away!
~~~
Er battery's about to die pick up from here in a bit. But why did black vise feel the need to post a 24 hr v/la? Is that typical here?
I didn't see your reasoning for these two, mind letting me in?
Rai wanted to wait on lynching HP at first, citing that he wanted more people to post. Once most people posted saying they were fine with testing it, suddenly Rai wants on board. I feel like he waited until the end and then just sheeped the town.
Tammy stated that it was very possibly a bad idea to lynch HP...but then she said something to the effect of "well I GUESS we can go ahead on it..." which felt very fencesitty and also like a sort of hedged bet.
That's why you wanted to lynch me? (Also, I said it was Wildfire I think last night, so strike that.) If you think that's fence sitting you're going to hate how I introduce you to the many wonderful fences of the world! I don't think that was a hedge? There's not a whole lot I could have done, nobody knows me here so they really have no reason to listen to me, and I guess what had me so suspicious and concerned in part was moot and something I misunderstood due to not knowing you guys' meta here. I tend to be okay with doing something I particularly don't agree with if I don't think I have the clout to stop something and it's going to be a big distraction.
I think I hedged more on Bur in that post; I figured if anyone found something suspicious in that post it would have been that.
Oh that reminds me, Bur - you said that you don't really know anyone here. Are you new to mafia or just new to mafia here?
I didn't see your reasoning for these two, mind letting me in?
Rai wanted to wait on lynching HP at first, citing that he wanted more people to post. Once most people posted saying they were fine with testing it, suddenly Rai wants on board. I feel like he waited until the end and then just sheeped the town.
Tammy stated that it was very possibly a bad idea to lynch HP...but then she said something to the effect of "well I GUESS we can go ahead on it..." which felt very fencesitty and also like a sort of hedged bet.
That's why you wanted to lynch me? (Also, I said it was Wildfire I think last night, so strike that.) If you think that's fence sitting you're going to hate how I introduce you to the many wonderful fences of the world! I don't think that was a hedge? There's not a whole lot I could have done, nobody knows me here so they really have no reason to listen to me, and I guess what had me so suspicious and concerned in part was moot and something I misunderstood due to not knowing you guys' meta here. I tend to be okay with doing something I particularly don't agree with if I don't think I have the clout to stop something and it's going to be a big distraction.
I think I hedged more on Bur in that post; I figured if anyone found something suspicious in that post it would have been that.
Oh that reminds me, Bur - you said that you don't really know anyone here. Are you new to mafia or just new to mafia here?
... just wanting to get this one straight: Did you just admit fencesitting or not? I kind of got "Yeah I fencesitted but still not" -fibes from that one.
Regarding my experience:
This is my 2nd game of mafia online ever. (Also 2nd game on this site). I have 6 years worth of experience in meatspace, but those have been most of the time with open setup basic games (1 Cop, 1 SK, 1 Doc, rest Vanilla/Goon). The only people I "know" are Wheat (and Teia who is waiting there as a replacement)
So, while I'm not totally new to this game, meatspace mafia and internet mafia have their differences. I have no idea what roles are common and what to expect.(Hence I'm asking quite a lot of questions, if I feel there is something I don't get/I'm curious about, I ask for clarification.)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
I'm not a big fan of Killjoy's? reaction to Nati's claim, particularly the you could have baited a lynch thing and then analyzed the wagon. Like, I'm not sure I think it's scummy right now or if it's just hit another big pet peeve of mine. It sounds like he's saying that Nati should have behaved scummy to get a lynch on her so that they could analyze who actually thought her scummy behavior tricked scum? I hate hate hate when people think that. People who "reaction test" by acting scummy to see what scum they can catch net town who don't know they're behaving scummy on purpose more than scum, so it's silly, and very very few people know how to bait and then analyze the reactions. So, yeah I don't get that.
I'm not sure your issue here, but I'll explain this further. That's how I would have handled it. The difference is, I wouldn't necessarily need to 'act scummy' to provoke a lynch. I can only recall one game where at least two people didn't have huge scumreads on me just based on how I naturally play. I figured one could use that to their advantage.
@BlackVise, LnG, Hans, Rhand, Killjoy, Kamikaze: What do you think of Bur and Rai?
Cursory read on Bur is that he(she?) is someone who will likely be easily misunderstood. It may take a few posts, but eventually I think I will get an idea of his alignment. He's currently null.
As for Rai, something about his posts make him lean scum to me.I forget what post did it for me.
Again, care to explain? It's hard to defend myself if you don't give reasoning.
Town
DCIII
Arian
HP
Lean town
Kamakaze
Tammy
Rhand
Tan(He's not like scum!Tan in uPick. IDK if that's his meta, but he can go here for the time being.)
Cythare
Null
Wilfire (note: I normally have a strong scumread on town WF. I don't have that this game. It gives me pause.)
Hans
Wheat
Kitty
TMNT(Hard to read due to Post Restriction, although I don't think Spot has ever been scum. Anyone wanna confirm this?)
Ln
Karn
Bur
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
It depends on what you're asking me? I don't think I fencesat on the Nati situation. I personally didn't need the claim tested and gave my opinion about the lynch and possible repercussions that I at least wanted people to consider since she had brought it up. However, I was fine with testing the claim if not was going to cause a distraction, which is seemed like it was going to.
I think I fencesat on you though, and I don't see any problem with that. I'm an indecisive person by nature and "fencesit" or waffle on things while looking at things from every angle and taking into consideration others input to try to get it right, especially early game. It's annoying sometimes but *shrug*.
Okay so Bur is new. I was trying to figure out why he had made that post about catnip making up percentages because his join date is 2012 so I thought he was experienced. I'm reminded of the Porn Supremacy when TMCT? made a percentage post and some new person needled him about making up percentages to fake the game. That game's over a year old though and I could be misremembering the who's and why's as it was in part of the game before I replaced in. It also puts into perspective his point on thinking it's a good idea to try to trap scum by acting scummy as town. Anyway, his approach so far is something that I see more often from newb!town.
@kitty, why get into a slap fight over Bur's scumminess or lack thereof, only to backslide with a "not saying he is scum but I don't want to push him" type of comment? Why not just let people continue to press Bur and see how he reacts?
@LnG: I just said in passing that I had a town read on Bur. People asked me to explain why, so I did. I don't tend to ignore people unless they really deserve it.
Unvote
As for Arianhod, I think we should actually have him just outright claim now. The advantage is we likely know who the scum are claim wise and thus make it harder for scum to fakeclaim later on. As a reference from STMU II, the miller roles were Luck Norris as Zurin Dakal (a cardassian) AND Garuk (Also Cardassian), thus giving us an idea where to look.
This is unconvincing, at best. I wouldn't ever make any assumptions about the scum roles based solely on a miller claim.
While normally I would agree that it is bad practice to assume scum based on just a miller claim in most games, this is an exception. Not only is it a Rax game, but it is a very flavorfull Rax game. It may not be much as I said, but it is something to look at.
As an added bonus it keeps him in check should he be scum trying a miller gambit on us, as if he tries to fake claim any info that us as a town knows can only be town associated, we string him up.
This feels off. It'd be expected for a townie to be skeptical of the lack of name, but the way he approaches this question feels wrong, almost excited about the situation.
Excited? How are you getting excited out of what I said? I dunno about your role PM, but I got a name in mine. At the time there were only 2 possible reasons to claim he had no name:
A) Mod error (Which was proven out in quick measure)
B) Scum was hiding a name that he obviously knew was going to be seen as scummy.
As for the miller, well hopefully that works itself out soon enough.
Tan, can you explain what you mean by "working itself out?"
Basic mafia theory 101 here. Either the Vig is gonna vig him, or he is gonna act scummy and we lynch him. A miller gambit is basically self resolving in my mind.
How about you tell us what YOU think about Arian now as opposed to just asking how others are reaching their conclusion.
I'm not liking the tone of this. Asking this question to Bur is fine, but it's far more hostile than what is needed, or than what even makes sense.
OK, I'll give you it was a bit hostile, but I saw no reason for Bur to be asking Wheat(?) why he felt Arian was town. Rhand made it throughly clear there was something in the claim that was shared between them.
I dunno how we can salvage any analysis from it at this point, but I guess I can hold off on the vote until everyone checks in.
Unvote
And then, just like that, no steam ahead. I mean, I can understand reconsidering an idea, and even specifically moving from being ready to lynch HP to being willing to wait. But this just feels like he's so eager to please, willing to follow along to blend in, especially after the "full steam ahead" comment.
The only reason we are holding off lynching HP is we want others to check in and get a feel for everyone? Sounds like a plan. The only people who want a quick lynching at this point would be the scum.
I think under the circumstance, not only scum would want a quick lynch.
If either Tan or Rai flips scum, this post needs to be closely looked at later, because if Tan isn't coaching Rai here, then I have no idea what the point of this post is. Tan seems to be contradicting Rai, but he's not showing any of the pressure or hostility he's shown towards other players.
If you think that is coaching, then man is that a piss poor coach. I mean it is obvious from Rai's post he had either not read the thread, or did not understand why HP was being lynched at that time. There was no reason to be "hostile" to him, as in this case scum is just as likely as town to not know why a person was being rung up so fast.
Perhaps I misworded RE: Tammy. She wins obvtown fights because she's really obvtown. She's sneaky as scum and good at faking, but there is a specific fiery JUSTICE to her town-ness that is pretty much unfakeable.
RE: Wildfire: I'm a she(much to Sir Karn's changrin...), but anyways, my reasons for voting you are rather awkward and mostly because I did not feel good about your intentions post-my initial claim. I know this is vague, but I'm a vague individual.
I've had a super busy start of the week, so I'm like ~100 posts behind. Things should be cleared up by tomorrow night and I'll read?
Some super quick thoughts:
- Given the nature of this game (the mod self-proclaimed that it would contain elements of bastardism) is there a remote possibility that the mod could say something that it false, with intent to screw people up? I've never played in a game like this before, so I don't know what is and isn't out of question. It just seems that HP's role is really powerful, especially if it was kept secret until a crucial moment.
- I don't like bur. One post in particular makes me ~64% sure that he's scum. (U C wat I did there? )
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
Perhaps I misworded RE: Tammy. She wins obvtown fights because she's really obvtown. She's sneaky as scum and good at faking, but there is a specific fiery JUSTICE to her town-ness that is pretty much unfakeable.
RE: Wildfire: I'm a she(much to Sir Karn's changrin...), but anyways, my reasons for voting you are rather awkward and mostly because I did not feel good about your intentions post-my initial claim. I know this is vague, but I'm a vague individual.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@kitty, why get into a slap fight over Bur's scumminess or lack thereof, only to backslide with a "not saying he is scum but I don't want to push him" type of comment? Why not just let people continue to press Bur and see how he reacts?
I did think. And obviously there's an obvious reason for doing so. But THAT, in turn, begs the question: Why so early?
Or... wait. is it flavor related, or game related?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@KJ, wouldn't it defeat the purpose of a soft claim to answer those questions? I would also like to thank everyone for bringing it up instead of just noticing it and staying quiet. Subtlety is not one of my strongest points.
@KJ, wouldn't it defeat the purpose of a soft claim to answer those questions? I would also like to thank everyone for bringing it up instead of just noticing it and staying quiet. Subtlety is not one of my strongest points.
Ahh ok. So not a joke, or at least not solely a joke. That was more what I was asking.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Bur: PM formatting has bitten me in the butt before, so that's definitely not solely what I'm going on, but it was a good tipping point. Rhand makes a good case on you in general.
Liking Killjoy so far, though I'm not sure I've ever seen him as scum. Definitely liking Cythare and Rhand. Working my way through reads on everyone else.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Moderator Helpdesk
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
I've had a super busy start of the week, so I'm like ~100 posts behind. Things should be cleared up by tomorrow night and I'll read?
Some super quick thoughts:
- Given the nature of this game (the mod self-proclaimed that it would contain elements of bastardism) is there a remote possibility that the mod could say something that it false, with intent to screw people up? I've never played in a game like this before, so I don't know what is and isn't out of question. It just seems that HP's role is really powerful, especially if it was kept secret until a crucial moment.
- I don't like bur. One post in particular makes me ~64% sure that he's scum. (U C wat I did there? )
I don't think the mod would come in and falsely modclear someone. That would make the game unpleasant for all of us.
When I first read this, I thought "wth, is he trying to get us to distrust the modconfirmed townie now?", but the more I think about it, the less I believe you would actually post that as scum.
In re Tan: A lot of the points I presented against him are subjective, so there isn't much of a reason for me to reply further to most of them. I indicated what I saw, he responded, everyone can make up their own mind. -This, however, I feel is worth scrutiny:
Basic mafia theory 101 here. Either the Vig is gonna vig him, or he is gonna act scummy and we lynch him. A miller gambit is basically self resolving in my mind.
This was, of course, obvious. I just wanted clarification here to avoid putting words in anyone's mouth and potential backtracking. With that said, this is a generally reasonable stance to hold about a miller. Except...
OK, I'll give you it was a bit hostile, but I saw no reason for Bur to be asking Wheat(?) why he felt Arian was town. Rhand made it throughly clear there was something in the claim that was shared between them.
In order for this admitted hostility to make any sense, Tan would have to strongly believe that Bur was in danger of uncovering some real information that was best kept secret. And in order to believe that, Tan must also believe that Rhand actually might have some info which clears Arian.
So... that raises the big question here: If Tan believes Rhand has info that might be able to confirm Arian, why is Tan hoping Arian gets vigged?
The scum explanation is simple: Tan was making some comments that sound like they could come from reasonable townie perspectives (vig the miller!, stop fishing for info!), but without noticing that the underlying mindset he was presenting was inconsistent (vig the player we might confirm as town?).
The town explanation, on the otherhand, is: Tan thinks we have a way to confirm Arian... and wants him dead anyway? IDK. I'm not seeing anything that makes sense here.
If you want to try explaining this contradiction Tan, go ahead, but I can't imagine how.
For everyone else, this type of mindset inconsistency is almost always indicative of scum.
2) Are you calling Cantrip out or not? It sure seems like you're calling him scummy, but then you don't actually say it, and you don't follow up in subsequent posts.
No, I'm not calling him mafia, if that's what you are asking. I don't like his posts and want to take a closer look at them, but I want to focus on others (eg. Tammy) first.
The language you used in your post was pretty charged, so I'm surprised by this. Care to share who your current scumreads are?
I think I fencesat on you though, and I don't see any problem with that. I'm an indecisive person by nature and "fencesit" or waffle on things while looking at things from every angle and taking into consideration others input to try to get it right, especially early game. It's annoying sometimes but *shrug*.
It depends on the nature of it. I agree that (especially early on) it's fine to be unsure about a player, but there's a difference between being unsure and presenting both sides of an argument to leave both doors open on a player. It's easy to call something fencesitting, but it's the language and the motive that are more important.
@KJ, wouldn't it defeat the purpose of a soft claim to answer those questions? I would also like to thank everyone for bringing it up instead of just noticing it and staying quiet. Subtlety is not one of my strongest points.
In re Tan: A lot of the points I presented against him are subjective, so there isn't much of a reason for me to reply further to most of them. I indicated what I saw, he responded, everyone can make up their own mind. -This, however, I feel is worth scrutiny:
Basic mafia theory 101 here. Either the Vig is gonna vig him, or he is gonna act scummy and we lynch him. A miller gambit is basically self resolving in my mind.
This was, of course, obvious. I just wanted clarification here to avoid putting words in anyone's mouth and potential backtracking. With that said, this is a generally reasonable stance to hold about a miller. Except...
OK, I'll give you it was a bit hostile, but I saw no reason for Bur to be asking Wheat(?) why he felt Arian was town. Rhand made it throughly clear there was something in the claim that was shared between them.
In order for this admitted hostility to make any sense, Tan would have to strongly believe that Bur was in danger of uncovering some real information that was best kept secret. And in order to believe that, Tan must also believe that Rhand actually might have some info which clears Arian.
So... that raises the big question here: If Tan believes Rhand has info that might be able to confirm Arian, why is Tan hoping Arian gets vigged?
The scum explanation is simple: Tan was making some comments that sound like they could come from reasonable townie perspectives (vig the miller!, stop fishing for info!), but without noticing that the underlying mindset he was presenting was inconsistent (vig the player we might confirm as town?).
The town explanation, on the otherhand, is: Tan thinks we have a way to confirm Arian... and wants him dead anyway? IDK. I'm not seeing anything that makes sense here.
If you want to try explaining this contradiction Tan, go ahead, but I can't imagine how.
For everyone else, this type of mindset inconsistency is almost always indicative of scum.
@KCC: Where did I ever say I wanted the miller dead? You seem to like throwing words in my mouth. All I ever said on the issue is that it is self resolving and that the vig will either vig him or he is scum. I have not once said "vig kill him" or anything like that. I can't control his actions nor can I predict what will happen. All I can state is my mindset when I made that statement (One I still feel is true.)
Simpler words: I am basically going to look for scum elsewhere unless Arian starts acting scummy.
Also Unvote as I was writing my post to tammy when Rax posted his confirmation.
@KCC: Where did I ever say I wanted the miller dead? You seem to like throwing words in my mouth. All I ever said on the issue is that it is self resolving and that the vig will either vig him or he is scum. I have not once said "vig kill him" or anything like that. I can't control his actions nor can I predict what will happen. All I can state is my mindset when I made that statement (One I still feel is true.)
Simpler words: I am basically going to look for scum elsewhere unless Arian starts acting scummy.
Also Unvote as I was writing my post to tammy when Rax posted his confirmation.
You don't want scum dead then? Because if you do, both your options lead to the death of Arian, either by vigshot or by lynch.
@KCC: Where did I ever say I wanted the miller dead? You seem to like throwing words in my mouth. All I ever said on the issue is that it is self resolving and that the vig will either vig him or he is scum. I have not once said "vig kill him" or anything like that.
As for the miller, well hopefully that works itself out soon enough.
Unless you were using some alternate definition of "hopefully" that is unfamiliar to me, this clearly says that you want the Arian situation "worked out" AKA Arian dead.
@Cythare: I admit I might have been a tad snappy while making that post.
Then, for my reads. My mafiahunt has kind of failed, but I have idea who are town. (My dear mentor Proph has been hailing townhunting and I somehow ended up doing it.)
Townreading:
HookerPunch - Duh.
Arian - I stated this before, but I'm townreading her for that claim (see before).
KCC - I like her posts and how she really seems to be driving this game forward.
Cythare - Seems to be interested in driving this game forward and finding mafia.
DCIII - While there aren't much posts from him, I really like those few and they really give me the feeling he is putting effort in and trying.
... and I guess Tammy too. I didn't find anything really suspicious about her after all, and I think I should be focusing on others also... (Like Tanarin).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
I don't understand your "obligated to debate". Are you suggesting I should have ignored his post to me and his misconstruing of my post? He literally questioned something I clearly posted in that post and misinterpreted either on purpose or by mistake my point in the post. Interacting with people is how I get my best reads, so I'm not sure what the problem with that is.
A vote would indicate I think he's scum. I'm not sure I think that. I think he's suspicious. I think it's suspicious that he came into the game, missed that hookers claim had already been tested and didn't interact with anything else beyond my post, which was a terrible interpretation. However, it's my post he misinterpreted, so I know what I meant. There is the possibility he made a mistake; the purpose of interacting with him is to figure that out.
Maybe you would vote after making that post, it doesn't mean I would. And as far as I'm concerned a vote in that situation, where he's already had a case against him he's going to have to answer to, has the potential to muddy our interactions.
That, and half this game feels a murky blend to me. It will probably take me a couple days to sort out the people here, and until I feel I have a grasp and am not confusing everyone here save a few people I won't be voting unless I feel I have a solid lead which I don't right now.
As far as the end, it was kinda tacked on. It is a potential reason for his post but I'm interested in something there, but I actually kinda like that you picked up on that.
Obliged to debate meaning that I didn't get the feeling that your heart was in it. Like, your conclusion was that you thought his read on your post wasn't honest but the way you built up to it made a point of asking him if he read (you said something to that effect three separate times). And the bulk of the post felt like indignation to me more than suspicion. Then the conclusion seemed very damning but felt disjointed from the rest of the post... but then there was no action to follow up the conclusion (which, why would voting muddy your interactions any more than saying that you felt like his interpretation of your posts wasn't honest? Even if there's a case on him, he'd still need to respond to you both.).
I think what I'm trying to say is that the post felt more like the tone was, "I can't believe you're making me call you out on this stuff," rather than "I'm legit suspicious of your actions and I think I'm onto something here."
Still seems off that you'd think that he'd be sensing a game momentum shift toward you with only Wildfire expressing suspicion, or that you'd feel the need to throw that out there as a motive for his actions.
I don't like where Kamikazee linked Bur and Cantrip in #208 or how he presented it "Bur and Cantrip scumteam is possible" as opposed to taking ownership of the read. I looked back over him to see if he'd previously had thoughts on Cantrip (as 208 is just saying reasons he thinks Bur could be scum while then throwing in that he could be scum with Cantrip) and the only thing there was him asking Cythare if he thought Cantrip was busing BV and then asking Cantrip if he thought HP was gambiting town. Plus, the rest of his content aside from that is mostly game theorizing with Tammy why HP's role could be legit and doesn't need to have a drawback. Leaning scum.
I'm heading out the door for work so I'll get back to this after, but I'm more than a little suspicious that tamarin chose to ignore my response to his post and only come in and weakly defend himself. Anyway I'll have more to say about that later because something struck me last night, and I do think that if he were town there would have been a specific response to me that him ignoring doesn't feel right.
I might vote for him later or I MIGHT NOT don't want to give dc a reason to stop needling me over the stupidest ***** ever. Anyway still not gonna vote until I reread the first few pages and get a feel for this game now that I think I have most of your identities sorted out. Maybe I just won't vote at all!
DC - I'm running out of time but of course I was indignant, he misrepped my post. But AS A SAID BEFORE it's my post I knew what I meant. Unfortunately even through my sheer genius people do misunderstand me from time to time and it was very possible tan did. You want to know why kitty is my biggest town read? Because after I made that post, she responded that she agreed it was an dishonest interpretation. I liked her a bit before, but that response told me she actually was reading my post to try to see what I was thinking and got it. That I felt it was dishonest but not sure.
What I don't understand is how you can be talking out both sides of your mouth here? Do I seem indignant at being misrepped ot suspicious? Because if I seem indignant but not suspicious, then why do you think it should have been followed up with a vote? And why, if I do seem suspicious do you say I don't?
And why are you not actually asking me any questions to determine my alignment? I tell you I did in fact tack that on at the end because I'm interested in something. Aka I HAD A REASON and you continue to go gee don't know why. It doesn't feel at all like you're interested in trying to read me but are trying to twist what I'm actually doing.
I'm running late for work now, so I'll answer the vote question later, but I do have a serious question for you. Why weren't you voting me?
I might vote for him later or I MIGHT NOT don't want to give dc a reason to stop needling me over the stupidest ***** ever. Anyway still not gonna vote until I reread the first few pages and get a feel for this game now that I think I have most of your identities sorted out. Maybe I just won't vote at all!
What even is this (the whole post in general, but this paragraph in particular)? It's like a terrible mish-mash of :fencesit: and self-awareness, and it looks like a bit of OMGUS to top it off
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Moderator Helpdesk
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
I might vote for him later or I MIGHT NOT don't want to give dc a reason to stop needling me over the stupidest ***** ever. Anyway still not gonna vote until I reread the first few pages and get a feel for this game now that I think I have most of your identities sorted out. Maybe I just won't vote at all!
What even is this (the whole post in general, but this paragraph in particular)? It's like a terrible mish-mash of :fencesit: and self-awareness
Sorry, been slammed at work the last couple of days, so I haven't had much time to post. I have been keeping up on the reading, though, and KCC does have a very good point on Tan's mindset. An impressive catch.
I might vote for him later or I MIGHT NOT don't want to give dc a reason to stop needling me over the stupidest ***** ever. Anyway still not gonna vote until I reread the first few pages and get a feel for this game now that I think I have most of your identities sorted out. Maybe I just won't vote at all!
I agree on you with this one. To me, it just sounds like Tammy decided to throw a tantrum after DCIII's post. Now we got the point where I don't like DCIII's case against Tammy nor I do like Tammy's defense against it. *sigh*
But, now for the interesting quesion: Why did Tammy get emotional like that? Even though I didn't like DCIII's post, he may have been onto something.
All in all, I guess I need to keep up evaluating Tammy and reread things.
What even is this (the whole post in general, but this paragraph in particular)? It's like a terrible mish-mash of :fencesit: and self-awareness, and it looks like a bit of OMGUS to top it off
I might vote for him later or I MIGHT NOT don't want to give dc a reason to stop needling me over the stupidest ***** ever. Anyway still not gonna vote until I reread the first few pages and get a feel for this game now that I think I have most of your identities sorted out. Maybe I just won't vote at all!
What even is this (the whole post in general, but this paragraph in particular)? It's like a terrible mish-mash of :fencesit: and self-awareness, and it looks like a bit of OMGUS to top it off
I agree on you with this one. To me, it just sounds like Tammy decided to throw a tantrum after DCIII's post. Now we got the point where I don't like DCIII's case against Tammy nor I do like Tammy's defense against it. *sigh*
But, now for the interesting quesion: Why did Tammy get emotional like that? Even though I didn't like DCIII's post, he may have been onto something.
All in all, I guess I need to keep up evaluating Tammy and reread things.
@Cythare: I admit I might have been a tad snappy while making that post.
Then, for my reads. My mafiahunt has kind of failed, but I have idea who are town. (My dear mentor Proph has been hailing townhunting and I somehow ended up doing it.)
Townreading:
HookerPunch - Duh.
Arian - I stated this before, but I'm townreading her for that claim (see before).
KCC - I like her posts and how she really seems to be driving this game forward.
Cythare - Seems to be interested in driving this game forward and finding mafia.
DCIII - While there aren't much posts from him, I really like those few and they really give me the feeling he is putting effort in and trying.
... and I guess Tammy too. I didn't find anything really suspicious about her after all, and I think I should be focusing on others also... (Like Tanarin).
Proph knows how I feel about townhunting. It's an easy way for scum to appear productive, as they can point to townie things that people they know are town are doing without having to worry about scumhunting. If you find town through the process of reading and playing the game, great! But having townreads and no scumreads is a red flag for me. Do you really have no sense of who you think might be scum?
[quote from="Sir Karn »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/574690-star-trek-myriad-universes-mafia-iii-day-1?comment=13"]@Bur: You never responded to my RVS. No joke, not even acknowledgment. Why??
#1: Last time I checked, IGMEOY stands for "I got me eyes on you". I clearly stated I'd be paying closer attention to Tammy.
#2: Since I don't know almost anyone here, asking people I don't know questions and trying to get to know them and their thought process seems like a good idea.
... just asking, basing your vote solely on that one or not?
I didn't see your reasoning for these two, mind letting me in?
@HP: So, Tammy is both good at manipulating and and winning "I'm obvtown more than you" -fights? To me it sounds like Tammy's alignment can be really hard to figure out and more the reason to scrutinize her well... Please correct me if I got this one wrong, but it seems like your logic has a hole in it.
This is the first thing of yours I've read that I've actually liked.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
2) Are you calling Cantrip out or not? It sure seems like you're calling him scummy, but then you don't actually say it, and you don't follow up in subsequent posts.
Bur and Cantrip scumteam is possible.
Rai wanted to wait on lynching HP at first, citing that he wanted more people to post. Once most people posted saying they were fine with testing it, suddenly Rai wants on board. I feel like he waited until the end and then just sheeped the town.
Tammy stated that it was very possibly a bad idea to lynch HP...but then she said something to the effect of "well I GUESS we can go ahead on it..." which felt very fencesitty and also like a sort of hedged bet.
No, I'm not calling him mafia, if that's what you are asking. I don't like his posts and want to take a closer look at them, but I want to focus on others (eg. Tammy) first.
And then, this:
Mind elaborating this one too? I assume "CC" means "Counterclaim", but I still can't follow your logic on this one...
I don't understand your "obligated to debate". Are you suggesting I should have ignored his post to me and his misconstruing of my post? He literally questioned something I clearly posted in that post and misinterpreted either on purpose or by mistake my point in the post. Interacting with people is how I get my best reads, so I'm not sure what the problem with that is.
A vote would indicate I think he's scum. I'm not sure I think that. I think he's suspicious. I think it's suspicious that he came into the game, missed that hookers claim had already been tested and didn't interact with anything else beyond my post, which was a terrible interpretation. However, it's my post he misinterpreted, so I know what I meant. There is the possibility he made a mistake; the purpose of interacting with him is to figure that out.
Maybe you would vote after making that post, it doesn't mean I would. And as far as I'm concerned a vote in that situation, where he's already had a case against him he's going to have to answer to, has the potential to muddy our interactions.
That, and half this game feels a murky blend to me. It will probably take me a couple days to sort out the people here, and until I feel I have a grasp and am not confusing everyone here save a few people I won't be voting unless I feel I have a solid lead which I don't right now.
As far as the end, it was kinda tacked on. It is a potential reason for his post but I'm interested in something there, but I actually kinda like that you picked up on that.
<3
~~~
Rhand - I'm on my iPad so I'm not going to tear down your wall and you people quote stripe too much here anyway, but no I was fine with what you posted about why you thought Arian was town. It gave me a leaning town read on you as well.
~~~
I'm not getting the suspicion on lngr for the soft claim.
~~~
Thank you. I was not aware of that. You've just saved me from chasing shadows by going back and seeing how the claims were treated differently and why. Yes, I come from mafia scum. Well my homesite is westeros; that's where I'm really from. Millers are not vigged on sight on either sites, are not automatically lynched either, and in several instances have been scum fake claims who have gone on to win the game due to it.
No.
>_>
<_<
I'll try.
I don't get this. Kitty is probably my strongest town read besides nati, and I don't think that's what she was doing at all.
Awe thank you. I certainly feel scattered right now though! (But speaking of scatterbrained, funny story, last game at westeros a newer player was talking to me in the dead thread and he was like 'Tammy I haven't understood why people think you're town so fast because your scattered, ADD approach to the game looks so fake to me, but then you came in day two and started analyzing players and posted that case against nacho and I realized you are actually a good player.' I think I had been killed night one the past few games there, so all he had ever seen was scattered. Anyway that didn't really have a point but it was the first time someone had used those terms to describe my early play and it made me laugh.)
~~~
Okay I love the smell of newb paranoia in the morning. Bur - I'm not going to step into the middle of the nati talks about Tammy convo, but I actually think I'm extremely easy to read. But scrutinize away!
~~~
Er battery's about to die pick up from here in a bit. But why did black vise feel the need to post a 24 hr v/la? Is that typical here?
That's why you wanted to lynch me? (Also, I said it was Wildfire I think last night, so strike that.) If you think that's fence sitting you're going to hate how I introduce you to the many wonderful fences of the world! I don't think that was a hedge? There's not a whole lot I could have done, nobody knows me here so they really have no reason to listen to me, and I guess what had me so suspicious and concerned in part was moot and something I misunderstood due to not knowing you guys' meta here. I tend to be okay with doing something I particularly don't agree with if I don't think I have the clout to stop something and it's going to be a big distraction.
I think I hedged more on Bur in that post; I figured if anyone found something suspicious in that post it would have been that.
Oh that reminds me, Bur - you said that you don't really know anyone here. Are you new to mafia or just new to mafia here?
... just wanting to get this one straight: Did you just admit fencesitting or not? I kind of got "Yeah I fencesitted but still not" -fibes from that one.
Regarding my experience:
So, while I'm not totally new to this game, meatspace mafia and internet mafia have their differences. I have no idea what roles are common and what to expect.(Hence I'm asking quite a lot of questions, if I feel there is something I don't get/I'm curious about, I ask for clarification.)
HP: Are you a guy or a girl? I seem to remember you being a guy in Winterfell, but half the people here call you 'she'.
I'm not sure your issue here, but I'll explain this further. That's how I would have handled it. The difference is, I wouldn't necessarily need to 'act scummy' to provoke a lynch. I can only recall one game where at least two people didn't have huge scumreads on me just based on how I naturally play. I figured one could use that to their advantage.
Why did you decide to make a veiled claim so early?
Cursory read on Bur is that he(she?) is someone who will likely be easily misunderstood. It may take a few posts, but eventually I think I will get an idea of his alignment. He's currently null.
As for Rai, something about his posts make him lean scum to me.I forget what post did it for me.
Again, care to explain? It's hard to defend myself if you don't give reasoning.
Town
DCIII
Arian
HP
Lean town
Kamakaze
Tammy
Rhand
Tan(He's not like scum!Tan in uPick. IDK if that's his meta, but he can go here for the time being.)
Cythare
Null
Wilfire (note: I normally have a strong scumread on town WF. I don't have that this game. It gives me pause.)
Hans
Wheat
Kitty
TMNT(Hard to read due to Post Restriction, although I don't think Spot has ever been scum. Anyone wanna confirm this?)
Ln
Karn
Bur
lean scum
iRebel
Cantrip
BlackVise
I think I fencesat on you though, and I don't see any problem with that. I'm an indecisive person by nature and "fencesit" or waffle on things while looking at things from every angle and taking into consideration others input to try to get it right, especially early game. It's annoying sometimes but *shrug*.
Okay so Bur is new. I was trying to figure out why he had made that post about catnip making up percentages because his join date is 2012 so I thought he was experienced. I'm reminded of the Porn Supremacy when TMCT? made a percentage post and some new person needled him about making up percentages to fake the game. That game's over a year old though and I could be misremembering the who's and why's as it was in part of the game before I replaced in. It also puts into perspective his point on thinking it's a good idea to try to trap scum by acting scummy as town. Anyway, his approach so far is something that I see more often from newb!town.
@kitty, why get into a slap fight over Bur's scumminess or lack thereof, only to backslide with a "not saying he is scum but I don't want to push him" type of comment? Why not just let people continue to press Bur and see how he reacts?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
While normally I would agree that it is bad practice to assume scum based on just a miller claim in most games, this is an exception. Not only is it a Rax game, but it is a very flavorfull Rax game. It may not be much as I said, but it is something to look at.
Umm... ok?
Ok, so basically we agree to disagree on this point. I personally don't see how it helps scum more, but to each their own.
Excited? How are you getting excited out of what I said? I dunno about your role PM, but I got a name in mine. At the time there were only 2 possible reasons to claim he had no name:
A) Mod error (Which was proven out in quick measure)
B) Scum was hiding a name that he obviously knew was going to be seen as scummy.
Basic mafia theory 101 here. Either the Vig is gonna vig him, or he is gonna act scummy and we lynch him. A miller gambit is basically self resolving in my mind.
OK, I'll give you it was a bit hostile, but I saw no reason for Bur to be asking Wheat(?) why he felt Arian was town. Rhand made it throughly clear there was something in the claim that was shared between them.
Dunno how you are reading too much enthuasiam, but whatevs.
Umm... OK?
If you think that is coaching, then man is that a piss poor coach. I mean it is obvious from Rai's post he had either not read the thread, or did not understand why HP was being lynched at that time. There was no reason to be "hostile" to him, as in this case scum is just as likely as town to not know why a person was being rung up so fast.
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
RE: Wildfire: I'm a she(much to Sir Karn's changrin...), but anyways, my reasons for voting you are rather awkward and mostly because I did not feel good about your intentions post-my initial claim. I know this is vague, but I'm a vague individual.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Some super quick thoughts:
- Given the nature of this game (the mod self-proclaimed that it would contain elements of bastardism) is there a remote possibility that the mod could say something that it false, with intent to screw people up? I've never played in a game like this before, so I don't know what is and isn't out of question. It just seems that HP's role is really powerful, especially if it was kept secret until a crucial moment.
- I don't like bur. One post in particular makes me ~64% sure that he's scum. (U C wat I did there? )
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
Ok, fair enough.
Also it's me, not Wildfire.
Or... wait. is it flavor related, or game related?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Liking Killjoy so far, though I'm not sure I've ever seen him as scum. Definitely liking Cythare and Rhand. Working my way through reads on everyone else.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
I don't think the mod would come in and falsely modclear someone. That would make the game unpleasant for all of us.
When I first read this, I thought "wth, is he trying to get us to distrust the modconfirmed townie now?", but the more I think about it, the less I believe you would actually post that as scum.
This was, of course, obvious. I just wanted clarification here to avoid putting words in anyone's mouth and potential backtracking. With that said, this is a generally reasonable stance to hold about a miller. Except...
In order for this admitted hostility to make any sense, Tan would have to strongly believe that Bur was in danger of uncovering some real information that was best kept secret. And in order to believe that, Tan must also believe that Rhand actually might have some info which clears Arian.
So... that raises the big question here: If Tan believes Rhand has info that might be able to confirm Arian, why is Tan hoping Arian gets vigged?
The scum explanation is simple: Tan was making some comments that sound like they could come from reasonable townie perspectives (vig the miller!, stop fishing for info!), but without noticing that the underlying mindset he was presenting was inconsistent (vig the player we might confirm as town?).
The town explanation, on the otherhand, is: Tan thinks we have a way to confirm Arian... and wants him dead anyway? IDK. I'm not seeing anything that makes sense here.
If you want to try explaining this contradiction Tan, go ahead, but I can't imagine how.
For everyone else, this type of mindset inconsistency is almost always indicative of scum.
Vote Tanarin
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
The miller inconsistency is blatant proof. It makes me happy KCC is back
Simpler words: I am basically going to look for scum elsewhere unless Arian starts acting scummy.
Also Unvote as I was writing my post to tammy when Rax posted his confirmation.
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
You don't want scum dead then? Because if you do, both your options lead to the death of Arian, either by vigshot or by lynch.
Oh, really?
Unless you were using some alternate definition of "hopefully" that is unfamiliar to me, this clearly says that you want the Arian situation "worked out" AKA Arian dead.
Wanna try again?
Then, for my reads. My mafiahunt has kind of failed, but I have idea who are town. (My dear mentor Proph has been hailing townhunting and I somehow ended up doing it.)
Townreading:
HookerPunch - Duh.
Arian - I stated this before, but I'm townreading her for that claim (see before).
KCC - I like her posts and how she really seems to be driving this game forward.
Cythare - Seems to be interested in driving this game forward and finding mafia.
DCIII - While there aren't much posts from him, I really like those few and they really give me the feeling he is putting effort in and trying.
... and I guess Tammy too. I didn't find anything really suspicious about her after all, and I think I should be focusing on others also... (Like Tanarin).
Obliged to debate meaning that I didn't get the feeling that your heart was in it. Like, your conclusion was that you thought his read on your post wasn't honest but the way you built up to it made a point of asking him if he read (you said something to that effect three separate times). And the bulk of the post felt like indignation to me more than suspicion. Then the conclusion seemed very damning but felt disjointed from the rest of the post... but then there was no action to follow up the conclusion (which, why would voting muddy your interactions any more than saying that you felt like his interpretation of your posts wasn't honest? Even if there's a case on him, he'd still need to respond to you both.).
I think what I'm trying to say is that the post felt more like the tone was, "I can't believe you're making me call you out on this stuff," rather than "I'm legit suspicious of your actions and I think I'm onto something here."
Still seems off that you'd think that he'd be sensing a game momentum shift toward you with only Wildfire expressing suspicion, or that you'd feel the need to throw that out there as a motive for his actions.
---------------------------------------------------------
I don't like where Kamikazee linked Bur and Cantrip in #208 or how he presented it "Bur and Cantrip scumteam is possible" as opposed to taking ownership of the read. I looked back over him to see if he'd previously had thoughts on Cantrip (as 208 is just saying reasons he thinks Bur could be scum while then throwing in that he could be scum with Cantrip) and the only thing there was him asking Cythare if he thought Cantrip was busing BV and then asking Cantrip if he thought HP was gambiting town. Plus, the rest of his content aside from that is mostly game theorizing with Tammy why HP's role could be legit and doesn't need to have a drawback. Leaning scum.
---------------------------------------------------
More people should vote Tan.
Wish Karn had answered my question more timely, but still want to see his response.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Vote Tanarin
Tanarin's rebuttal felt overly defensive.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I might vote for him later or I MIGHT NOT don't want to give dc a reason to stop needling me over the stupidest ***** ever. Anyway still not gonna vote until I reread the first few pages and get a feel for this game now that I think I have most of your identities sorted out. Maybe I just won't vote at all!
DC - I'm running out of time but of course I was indignant, he misrepped my post. But AS A SAID BEFORE it's my post I knew what I meant. Unfortunately even through my sheer genius people do misunderstand me from time to time and it was very possible tan did. You want to know why kitty is my biggest town read? Because after I made that post, she responded that she agreed it was an dishonest interpretation. I liked her a bit before, but that response told me she actually was reading my post to try to see what I was thinking and got it. That I felt it was dishonest but not sure.
What I don't understand is how you can be talking out both sides of your mouth here? Do I seem indignant at being misrepped ot suspicious? Because if I seem indignant but not suspicious, then why do you think it should have been followed up with a vote? And why, if I do seem suspicious do you say I don't?
And why are you not actually asking me any questions to determine my alignment? I tell you I did in fact tack that on at the end because I'm interested in something. Aka I HAD A REASON and you continue to go gee don't know why. It doesn't feel at all like you're interested in trying to read me but are trying to twist what I'm actually doing.
I'm running late for work now, so I'll answer the vote question later, but I do have a serious question for you. Why weren't you voting me?
What even is this (the whole post in general, but this paragraph in particular)? It's like a terrible mish-mash of :fencesit: and self-awareness, and it looks like a bit of OMGUS to top it off
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
@Bur: You never responded to my RVS. No joke, not even acknowledgment. Why??
---
I still haven't seen anything from Tanarin that is jumping out at me. Not sure what you're all on about.
^
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Unvote. Vote Tanarin.
... why are you bringing this out now, 10 pages later?
Anyways, I couldn't think of any terribad pun about "SirKarn" back then and game moved forward after that.
What about the bit where Tan says "I never did this" and KCC comes back not 3 posts later and shows where he did it?
Nothing, at all?
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Draft my cube! (630 cards)