It's one of the ways you mixed bull***** into your otherwise good content. That's the kind of "point" that can make a player look scummy without being scummy.
So Flamingo is town then?
Quote from TA »
Under the logic of the thought, I believe my worry was that it would be EDH or might be Gaymers, who lacked something to stand out as Town at the time.
Why would that worry you?
Quote from TA »
I don't know what you mean. I don't believe I ever commented on that question. I was of a mind to adopt the strategy, even if it might be used against the player providing it. However, unlike Flamingos, I saw that the lack of townreads between the supposed townies was a roadblock to that course.
Ah, but you did. In post #218, you wrote:
Quote from TA »
I remembered this question:
Quote from The Crafters CCM Hydra »
Why would you risk the game on an assumption instead of actively scumhunting?
and it didn't appear right to me.
So I'll ask again, Why did my question posed to Flamingo of "Why would you risk the game on an assumption instead of actively scumhunting?" not appear right to you?
Quote from TA »
What? Oh, I see, you've misunderstood the way I've used 'that'. The 'that' refers to what you did.
What was 'that' then? You need to be way more specific.
Quote from TA »
Once again, the 'that' refers to what you did (and how -I- would take a look at it).
No, not about how you would look at things, about how others look at you. Why do you fear the scrutiny of others?
Quote from TA »
Look man, I've been over that. A lot.
Not enough by any means. You've been actively avoiding talking about or responding to Brigade's questions. In what way would it allow Brigade to 'agree' and make a scummish post?
Quote from TA »
I was saying that the doubtful feelings being laid would result in a no-agreement no-lynch, not an actual vote to no-lynch.
How is that even possible?
Quote from TA »
The knowledge being the information you hypothetically possess were you a mafia. You know, lesson 1: scumhunting. Your second question doesn't make sense.
My question: Why are you trying to protect EDH while trying to imply that there is knowledge to be hidden about them?
In regards to your line in post 240:
Quote from TA »
It makes me want to look back at interactions and missing interactions between those two players, like Crafters is avoiding saying much about EDH (because he doesn't know how to hide his knowledge?), or he got nervous of his vote on EDH.
What is this knowledge of EDH that needs to be hidden?
Quote from TA »
Are you serious right now? You are playing with me.
I am completely serious. As far as I can tell, it has something to do with Wheat making some comment about fishing. What's the deal?
Quote from TA »
It does not stop them from asking questions, but it stops them from asking -those- questions. And demonstrate might suggest certitude, which is wrong, but it owes to that research I did as the game began to be a better player. On the one hand the townie can scumhunt and not be self-aware, but he also has an interest, the town has a need, for the town players to prove themselves. You show your dedication to the town objective and do what you can to bring more information into the open, including proving your own townhood through active processes like scumhunting and asking (relevant) questions.
If I don't ask -those- questions, nobody else is going to ask them. There's no limited number of questions in the game and whoever asks them first wins. If I ask a question, it's because I want to know the answer or want clarity on someone's thought processes. How can my asking questions stop others from asking them too?
Quote from TA »
I am not so much suspicious anymore because, like I said, you are exceedingly relevant.
How am I exceedingly relevant and why?
Quote from TA »
You're seriously asking me that? This is my refresher course in mafia. I know you play this game. If you don't know what I know, I'm baffled. But because I love teaching, in order: Because the mafia are informed and town are not; because it shows a disinterest in the town's win condition; because it breeds ignorance which the town must dispel in order to win; because it's a psychological indicator of lying; because it shows an interest in appearing town above "being" town.
Yes, I want to know what you consider to be scumtells and why. Why does that baffle you?
Quote from TA »
Because that's not how the logic goes, to me. To me, there's "Scummy" and "Not scummy yet". But I played one mafia game before, so wtf do I know? I didn't hold to this philosophy during the game.
You didn't hold to this philosophy, yet you wouldn't ever want to read anybody as Town?
Quote from TA »
If they became more aggressive, given their initial patterns. Yes.
So EDH is in your "Not scummy yet" category or what?
Quote from TA »
Because of your imagination.
Then what are you saying to Wheat here in #279:
Quote from TA »
I've taken my stand on you, though. You've gone to great pains to help the town.
Quote from TA »
But as I've said, you've squared your innocence with me.
What caused me to square my innocence with you and why?
Quote from TA »
Then learn to think more flexibly. Or, if Town loses this game, I'll learn to stop.
Why be so supportive of EDH yet have an "oh look! we're being suspicious of them there" moment?
You'll learn to stop if Town loses this game?
Quote from TA »
No. When I wrote that, I was spelling out immutable facts, and reasoning with myself. I don't know the word for the emotion I felt at the time. It's like that dim sense of whimsy as you elucidate the obstructions in life to yourself. Maybe it was whining. Yeah, a little whining that I can't even fall back on a textbook approach.
I'm having a really tough time seeing whining about not being able to easily mislynch strong town players coming from a town mindset.
I'll be v/la this weekend. Hopefully my laptop will be done with repairs soon. I've only been able to drop in as work permits lately. I think Kraj will still be around. Incidentally we are in agreement with scum-TA.
~scarbo
Aaaaaaand my computer caught a virus. Posting from an iPad :/
As promised, my PBPA on Brigade, spoilered for your viewing delight:
34 - First non-random post. Wants to hear explanation re Crafters softclaim suggestion.
Barns Academy. "Honestly" tell.
55 - Asks Crafters to explain why they didn't like her reaction. Calls out gen for defensiveness, insincerity, and too much 'noise'. When EDH says they don't like the 'vibe' of Crafter's softclaim suggestion, she notes the difference between a name softclaim and a role softclaim. Thinks Crafters is town, but wants to know who else they are suspicious of, and whether anyone else's reaction to their suggestion was scummy. Want Academy to commit to some reads. Doesn't like EDH's post 44, calling "interesting" a weasel word. Family and Academy are scum, Gaymers and Flamingo are null.
No actual direct explanations of gen's scumminess. The response to EDH seems a bit off. The attack on gen feels a lot more like pushing him to crack than an honest suspicion. The poke at Academy feels forced for so early in the game.
61 - Points out to gen that TA is her other scum read (i.e., his facts are clearly wrong). Says that his angry behavior is not helpful.
Here we have the 'you're scummy because you're being unhelpful' argument.
79 - No meta on gen. Says thinking about the scum motivation is WIFOM; instead focus is on would town act this way. Returns to the 'unhelpful' argument. Says gen 'sent off scummy signals' but looks townier now. Points out TA responded to her question by attacking her. Questions EDH's town mindset regarding asking who the least scummy player is. Says EDH's players contradicting each other is 'unhelpful'; says there's a "clumsy backpedal". Says TA and EDH are scum, Flamingo and Gaymers are lurking.
I disagree with her WIFOM statement, but I understand her thought process. Again doesn't explain what's scummy about gen, however, in her mind she may be equating unhelpful with scummy. Her point against TA is legit, though TA's post also seems reasonable. Her switch to EDH as the 'unhelpful' player is concerning.
91 - EDH gives a snide response to why they asked who the towniest player is, but she misses the point that explaining the question before folks answer makes asking it pointless. More 'unhelpful' pokes at EDH, distinguishes between their's and gen's response. Responds to scarbo's questions. Prompts Flamingo for reasons behind their reads.
Responses to scarbo are solid. Questions to Flamingo are good.
98 - TA balks at her accusation of turning her question around on them, which she further supports. TA accuses her of barning them in her actual arguments. Says EDH casting doubt on gen's honesty re: RL issues is WIFOM at best. Explains her 'helpfulness' analysis. Asks whether I considered post 91 in my assessment and if not, why?
Response to TA about her question is legit. Response to their barning accusation is not, it's just rhetoric. I agree with WIFOM comment, and it looks like genuine scumhunting. Regarding 'helpfulness' the crux here is whether she genuinely believes helpfulness indicates a scum mindset, or she's just pushing a flimsy argument. At this point I'm inclined to think it's the former. Also, no I didn't take post 91 into consideration. If I recall correctly, I didn't think the content was relevant during my first read.
115 - Says Academy and EDH are top suspects. Wants Flamingo to explain inside knowledge read on Academy's softclaim reaction; says that's not defending Academy. Wants TA to explain how they concluded EDH is town, says they are more interested in asking questions and picking targets than explaining themselves; cites specific examples. Votes TA.
Reasons on Academy seem good, and appears to be original thinking. Reasons on EDH are weaker, but her scumread is equitably weaker. Response to EDH's defense accusation is valid, though with obvWIFOM tacked on. I agree with her assessment on TA.
124 - Eyerolls at TAs response to her accusation of not providing reads, and supports her accusation. She points out TA's backpedaling. Says there's no logic to support the gut call on EDH and is now acting defensive of them. Suggests they are scum buddies. Ask gen to explain why he thinks hydra dissonance is town when her read is the opposite.
My initial reaction to the eyeroll was negative, but she's absolutely right. Particularly interesting is that TA admits to being contradictory when I didn't read it that way at all; backpedaling may be the right read here, when I initially read her argument as a strawman. I think she's taking the connection to EDH too far but I don't fault her logic. H_H could be scum who genuinely is reminded of himself as a newb townie; real reason, fake motivation.
168 - Participates in Kank's suggestion of Brigade and TA casing each other. Explains why she thinks hydra dissonance is scummy, in response to gen explaining his opposite position. Agrees w scarbo that EDH-Human's disagreement with EDH-Bur seems forced. Believes the anger at Bur voting differently than they discussed was genuine, but the confusion was not. Regarding TA's response to the case-each-other suggestion, she thinks that a townie should be able to clear themselves. Asks Flamingos how they would react if one of their PoE scumspects flips town. Notes repetition of "we're town".
Her first reason for considering hydra dissonance as scummy is bad play, not scummy play. Her second reason is sound; though I disagree dissonance is inherently scummy due to it, the predictable excuses are and considering how difficult it would be to distinguish between genuine and faked disagreement, ultimately I agree with her conclusion to treat it as scummy. I happen to agree with H_H that Crafter's suggestion could set up a false dichotomy, but again I see Teia's logic. I also disagree that townies should be able to clear themselves. If that were true then there'd be no such thing as a mislynch. She should know better, and that's a bit of a warning sign. Good questions of Flamingo. Unlike the players who just indict Flamingos for active lurking, she is actively asking questions and probing what content they do have.
188 - Despite the length not much new content here, except there is a strange tone shift towards TA. Despite being her top suspect for A LOT of good reasons, now she's playing nice, backing off, and encouraging better communication. Then she spots the fact that TA calls her scum and then just a few posts later, when nothing has changed, they don't think she's scum and unvotes. Despite this, she's "not sold" and needs more content from them to decide.
204 - Says TA never answered her point about reversing their opinion on her. Doesn't like EDH claiming their self-deprecation was a gambit. Disagrees with Crafters that TA's 'worthless' pbpa on them is a town tell. Responds to Gaymers complaint about "unhelpful behavior" scumtell. Doesn't think Flamingo's "PoE...game solved" comment is necessarily indicative of townie. Says Flamingos 'betting the game' she's town feels like buddying to her. Analyzes potential scum team combinations. Unvotes until suspects are narrowed to two.
Nothing here jumped out at me as particularly telling.
A couple questions for Brigade/Teia based on this reread:
In post 55, you note the difference between a name softclaim and a role softclaim and say the former doesn't help find scum. Why not?
Pleas elaborate on your current opinion of Academy, in particular why you became 'not sold' on them when - arguably - their behavior toward you worsened.
My stance on Brigade/Teia: early on she stood out for repeatedly making the accusation of "unhelpful behavior". This is an argument I've seen used before by scum to paint players in a negative light without directly calling them scum, create soft content that easy to recant or dismiss, and also to push mislynches where 'the player is either scum or unhelpful, so it's a win-win'. However, from reading Teia's explanations I feel that - even though I disagree with her logic - her thought process is genuine; I don't feel like it's phony. I noticed an overall pattern where I often disagreed with her conclusion, but I could clearly see the townie perspective that lead her there. The tells she calls others out on, and her responses to what she gets called out on, consistenly looks genuine. At this point, I feel pretty confident Teia is town; there's very little to make me suspicious of her.
Someone needs to sign this post.
Apologies, this was me.
@EDH: Gaymers is town.
Vote: Tolarian Academy
I think they're scum, I want them lynched, and I don't want any more dancing around obvious claim time. I strongly prefer their lynch over EDH.
I should've posted something yesterday but I didn't realize then that I have about 3x as much to do as I thought I did.
I only had time to skim but it looks like Tolarian is about to get lynched and I support it. I'll try to respond to stuff before the deadline but I make no promises.
I can sense from the post, Crafters, that you are not much longer interested in assessing my innocence but are instead hoping to wring clues from flailing scum. Still, I'll answer. I might get EDH or Flamingos to agree yet.
I'm trying to get clues period, especially in case you're a persecuted flailing town instead. Outright calling yourself flailing scum is not helping your case in that regard.
What are you trying to get EDH or Flamingos to do?
Quote from TA »
How isn't it? Five Townies, different opinions on who is scum, (7 choose 2) is 21 I believe, plenty enough room to fit a gamestate where no one agrees with anyone.
I've never seen a game of mafia end Day 1 with a no lynch. Sure, deadlines can hit, but whoever has the most votes will get it at that point (in most cases, depending on the game).
Quote from TA »
I answered one instance of you being flippant with my own flippant reference. While in the back of my mind I wondered if you might slip something in explaining the fish analogy, my real interest was getting you to answer for this:
"The preceding post seems like a carefree snap judgment of letting Brigade off the hook, like she's clean. I can't get into the mindset where he puts her down as having any further thoughts to trouble him. "
which was simply sidestepped when you quoted the very post whose motive I was questioning.
Those quoted words aren't mine. Whose are they?
As to why Wheat made that comment about fishing, I have no idea.
Wheat?
Quote from TA »
Repeating a question has no meaning. It becomes a scumtell that townies must at minimum be conscious to avoid. Only the player who first proves that they have the curiosity and point of view to ask a relevant question is able to help establish his own town alignment with it.
Then what's with all of the repeated questions from you and EDH involving Wheat's fishing analogy? That would be like asking Wheat why I made a reference to Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer earlier in the game.
Quote from TA »
I had just explained what I consider to be scumtells, your question about why is what baffles me. These are no-nonsense, standard definitions of the meaning of the scumtells. I can give them because I'm educated. You asking a question with no room for creativity - subjectivity I should say - just looks like you don't know the answer, which is a baffling concept (the concept that you don't know the answer).
I am trying to gain more insight into your thought processes. Not everyone processes information in the same way.
Quote from TA »
Weird that I can notice the obvious detriment to Town my prior decisions and folly have placed us in?
I'm trying my best to make sure town does not lose this game. I don't want to go into N1 with questions left unanswered, since there's no guarantee that I'll be here D2 to follow anything up personally.
Quote from TA »
I can see I'm in claim range. Just confirm you want to see one, Gaymers, Crafters, or any of the other townies and I'll tell you.
Who are the "other townies" then specifically?
Quote from TA »
@Spirit of EDH: If you were Town would you even take the risk to do anything other than support my lynch quietly?
Why did you say were town instead of are town?
Quote from scarbo »
My laptop is returned and fully functional. If TA isn't lynched by tomorrow I'll try to convince someone to hammer.
So... The part of me that wants to doubt and say H_H is genuinelly trying to help despite an impending lynch gets completely overridden by the claim stall. What is the point in asking me or another player you think is townie to confirm we want a claim? I said those exact words in my prior post and you're L-1. And if you really want to stay alive, the more you stall the claim the less likely we could possibly settle on a different lynch. So it just feels like stalling.
Few things that I want to hear before the day ends:
@Family: Are you town?
@Brigade: Are you town?
@Flamingo: Are you town?
Then, this one caught my eye:
I am a Vanilla Townie. I'm Envy.
Notice the difference? One of these statements is more natural, other one is really emphasized.
Now, who would he do that...?
And this one brings me to the last thing:
@TA: You are telling us that your role is "a Vanilla Townie"?
@Crafters: Well, I too would like to hear from Human. He was supposed to be "back again" couple of days ago, but I haven't heard anything from him since...
Crafters, would you like me to provide a towncase on EDH and a case on why TTA is scum? Sorry for not getting that earlier.
I see TTA's vanilla claim, and I'm fine proceeding with the lynch.
I'm reading your EDH case and your most relevant point is the "interesting" phrasing. Everything else either is summarizing or tying themselves to TTA.
I read post 95 and I see EDH just providing more insight into their thought processes. I'm not getting why you think they're scum.
Quote from TTA »
Flamingos: You've said one of Brigade's points is "blatantly false". Is that your way of calling her scum?
No. Have you been reading my posts? I've stated Brigade is my strongest town read.
Quote from Crafters »
I'm going to admit it, my case was not as strong as I thought it was going into it. I'm not sure if it was due to being tired or if I just trumped up the read in my head.
This makes me feel a bit better about Crafters. I think scum would continue pushing rather than being suddenly humble like this.
I'm caught up and ready to proceed with the lynch. If anyone would like to ask any questions I'd be more than happy to answer them.
@Crafters: Well, I too would like to hear from Human. He was supposed to be "back again" couple of days ago, but I haven't heard anything from him since...
Well go round him up then! We have some business to discuss!
What's with having everyone say they are town? What are you hoping to gain from this?
@Family: Are you town?
@Brigade: Are you town?
@Flamingo: Are you town?
Yes. What is the purpose of this question?
Okay, forget about that part.
@Family, Brigade, Flamingo: Please hardclaim to be a town. (Don't answer that question "Are you town?", but hardclaim it).
Well go round him up then! We have some business to discuss!
He's not answering to me in QT nor here, so...
If I had a better way to contact him, I would've used it already.
Also, I'll answer to you both (Crafters and Flamingo) what's the point of this, after I get answers from you all.
I already got answers from TA, Gaymers and Crafters but I'd like to hear the rest before I say anything more regarding this all.
Brigade's questions...
I answered. She's not happy with it, but it's not her belief I'm aiming for.
You answered after a hell of a lot of prodding. I'm more unhappy about that than your answers, frankly, since deliberately dodging a very plain and straightforward question (and subsequent followup) is scummy as hell.
Come to think of it, that highlights something missing from Gen's posts. I don't see the same dedication to extracting information from me in your posts. Because you know I don't know anything?
Notice the difference? One of these statements is more natural, other one is really emphasized.
Now, who would he do that...?
And this one brings me to the last thing:
@TA: You are telling us that your role is "a Vanilla Townie"?
What would you say if I said this feels like you're busing your buddy? But in any case, what I'd prefer you answer is how this kind of semantic nitpicking is townie, because it feels like you're just taking a shot for the sake of taking a shot. I mean, of all the reactions to a VT claim, picking apart the syntax is pretty loose.
Also, I'll answer to you both (Crafters and Flamingo) what's the point of this, after I get answers from you all.
I already got answers from TA, Gaymers and Crafters but I'd like to hear the rest before I say anything more regarding this all.
~Bur
All right, let's see where this goes. I'm town.
And I don't want to see the lynch until we see where this "make everyone claim town" thing is going.
- Teia
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
Now, let's begin todays quiz of "Out of these 6 statements, 2 are lies"!
So, first of all, I was less interested in the outcome of these answers (the question didn't even matter nor the answers per se), but what I wanted to hear is how would you answer them. Now, here are them all:
We're town. I'd be willing to bet the game on Brigade being town.
First, let's start with things to look for. When lying, most people don't want others to pay too much attention to their lie, so obviously things like avoiding the question or turning the attention to other direction are sign of lie. Now, if one needs to lie, the most easiest way is to give short answer that answers the question but doesn't give any "unneeded" information, and preferably even giving the answer via repeating the words of a question (eg. "Did you clean your room?" -> "I cleaned my room"). However, also overexplaining ("I cleaned my room: I first used vacuum cleaner, then swiped the dust from the bookshelf and after all that I mopped my room") is a a sign of lie (because, in that case, you are not only trying to make the others believe, but yourself as well).
Then, for the tone of the answer. While I can't hear your voice over the internet, I have to rely on the tone of your answer. Now, what kinds of tone do people tend to use when lying? Either "confess" sarcastically ("Of course I didn't clean my room") where you technically aren't lying, you are just letting others think that the opposite is true or turn it into a joke ("*laugh* You think I didn't remember to clean my room?") or implying it ("My room is much better shape now that it used to be"), where it might be true, but doesn't still tell the exact answer to the question.
Then, for the language used: While lying, most people tend to use really commonly used and "neutral" words, making the answer as bland and normal as possible. ("I cleaned it"). However, the opposite also hold: When people are not lying (and have no need to be wary about and can relax, they tend to use bit more... imaginative language ("Yeah, I sanitized every nook and cranny of my room, now it's all clean!"). Also, when lying, people tend to emphasize the lie to make drive it home ("Of course. I did not forget to clean my room") and quite commonly, don't use abbreviations while doing this.
... and this leads us back to this one:
I am a Vanilla Townie. I'm Envy.
Notice the difference now? This is a textbook example on emphasizing a lie.
Anyways, here's my conclusions:
Crafters: While uses "We're town", they also use tad playful expression here, which just doesn't seem like something liar would do. -> Not lying.
Gaymers: Doesn't use "We're town" and says is with their own words, so... -> Not lying.
Family: "We're town". Short, uninformative, nothing to say about this one. -> Lying?
Brigade: "We're town". Ditto. -> Lying?
Flamingo: "We're town". Ditto. However, these claims were from several days ago and comparing them to these claims I asked can make them bit less valid. Otherwise: -> Lying?
TA: "lel" made me really worried. While I can't be exactly sure whether it fills the category of "laughing about the matter" or not, the tone of it sounded to me a bit of an attempt to laugh this whole matter off. -> Lying
But, we are starting to run out of time.
@TA: Please answer my question asked you in #314.
~Bur
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Prophylaxis »
Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
Bur, you're not even analyzing what was said by whom using these rules of yours that you set forth.
Both Family and Brigade said "I'm town" not "We're town" as you concluded.
TA said "I'm town" preceded by lel.
Flamingo was the only clan you quoted saying "We're town" (twice), both followed by their assurances of another clan being town. (Your rule of turning the attention to a different direction.)
So does that mean Flamingo is the next scum after TA on your town hardclaim analysis questionnaire or what?
Well, sorry if it was too short. I couldn't keep on writing it since it was late in the night and I had to get some sleep. I could've wrote longer post had I continued today, but since the deadline is approaching, so I didn't want to waste too much of our time.
I had actually hoped you were a lie detector role or something
For a role in this game: Nope. Does one even exist?
RL: Sorry, but "lie detecting" is not easy. For it to be almost fool-proof, I would need to see you in flesh and have known you for years. Therefore, this all is with textbook-level.
You are the team claiming to be inexperienced and as such might be posting scummy because you don't know any better, correct?
Human has never played this game (or so he said). I've played this game for several years already, but only in real life with real people. My every thought and action in this game is based in my experice in RL-mafia.
You dropped a series of pushes on crafters and their 'horrible' posts based on the way they light heartedly answered your hard claim request?
Nope. Human has been the one to push Crafters, but I haven't heard about him for several days (he doesn't reply to me even in QT). I approved his attempts to push Crafters. And, basing my whole game in one analysis would be wrong. That one is drop in the ocean, I just said that this one analysis of the many, and just gives directions.
Then finally:
@TA: What really made me rise my eyebrows was simply that "a Vanilla Townie" is incorrect name for the role. I'll buy your explanation if you can give me the name Iso gave to that role in this game.
Also, the deadline is tomorrow. I'd prefer to get things done before we hit the deadline, since 2-to-4 situation would be better to mafia then 2-to-3. There's slightly smaller chance of town hitting mafia and it'd be easier to coax people to mislynch, since one hasn't happened yet. Also, we get more information (the indentities of the dead ones), even in the case of mislycnh. Of course, there's the small chance of doctor (assuming we even have one) guessing correct, but that isn't really too high of a chance.
(Crafters or Family bringing out the "mafia mindset" in my last paragraph incoming in 3... 2... 1...)
I had actually hoped you were a lie detector role or something,
That's exactly what I thought and the main reason I settled on TA. Instead we get a bunch of distracting nonsense at a crucial time. Considering how much H_H looks like he's sincerely trying to contribute before he dies (would caught scum put that much effort into defense without also attacking another viable lynch target?) I'm strongly considering voting EDH.
Quote from Spirit of EDH CCM Hydra »
@TA: What really made me rise my eyebrows was simply that "a Vanilla Townie" is incorrect name for the role. I'll buy your explanation if you can give me the name Iso gave to that role in this game.
Are you vanilla town?
Quote from Spirit of EDH CCM Hydra »
Also, the deadline is tomorrow. I'd prefer to get things done before we hit the deadline, since 2-to-4 situation would be better to mafia then 2-to-3. There's slightly smaller chance of town hitting mafia and it'd be easier to coax people to mislynch, since one hasn't happened yet. Also, we get more information (the indentities of the dead ones), even in the case of mislycnh. Of course, there's the small chance of doctor (assuming we even have one) guessing correct, but that isn't really too high of a chance.
Why did you feel the need to explain why lynching is better than not lynching?
Key word is 'viable'. Who's going to lynch you over him, so what's the point in attacking you if he's scum?
Your other points are all valid and I'm still in on TAs lynch. But I have serious problems with EDHs post and I'd rather not see the hammer come down just yet.
Yeah I don't have anything to say to EDH's response. His answers were fine enough.
I skimmed most of Kank's questions and the replies since 1. there's a lot of it I didn't feel like reading and 2. Kank's on top of it nicely.
There wasn't much besides that to comment on so this is a smaller post than I expected. I hope toMorrow I'll be able to contribute to the game more again if we survive the Night.
Anyways, here's my conclusions:
Crafters: While uses "We're town", they also use tad playful expression here, which just doesn't seem like something liar would do. -> Not lying.
Gaymers: Doesn't use "We're town" and says is with their own words, so... -> Not lying.
Family: "We're town". Short, uninformative, nothing to say about this one. -> Lying?
Brigade: "We're town". Ditto. -> Lying?
Flamingo: "We're town". Ditto. However, these claims were from several days ago and comparing them to these claims I asked can make them bit less valid. Otherwise: -> Lying?
TA: "lel" made me really worried. While I can't be exactly sure whether it fills the category of "laughing about the matter" or not, the tone of it sounded to me a bit of an attempt to laugh this whole matter off. -> Lying
But, we are starting to run out of time.
@TA: Please answer my question asked you in #314.
~Bur
I think this was EDH trying desperately to do something to help find scum and I therefore consider it town. Scum can also do desperate attempts to try to "hunt" scum but this felt genuine, unlike that of a scum.
---
I'm down for the Tolarian Academy lynch. Kank is ready to put down the hammer later today, I'll leave it in his hands.
Why did you feel the need to explain why lynching is better than not lynching?
I thought it would be good to make my thought-process clear to you, instead of someone asking right after "why do you think like this?"
Even if I'm not here toMorrow, somebody please get EDH (Human) to answer my questions.
I guess/hope he'll do so, assuming he'd get back here. He hasn't replied to me in QT for several days, hasn't been active here with his main account. If you have an idea how to reach him, I'll gladly do so.
Also, where is TA? Tomorrow is the deadline and he's missing. (Of course there's the chance of RL happening, but that'd be too convenient, just right before deadline...)
Gaymers, I'm sorry to say you're clearing me on WIFOM. Gen is right these actions aren't uniquely Town.
I'm not clearing you, at all. I found you less scummy and EDH moreso. However, during my reread I found Bur explaining how he's olny played IRL before, which is a reasonable alternate explaination for his behavior, even though the timing was horrible.
Okay, I’m done with waiting for answers to my questions.
We’re out of time, and I have a major work deadline tomorrow, so even if we had another day, I wouldn’t be able to use it.
I totally get that we are going to be the NK tonight. We are on more town lists than anyone and any tiny suspicion of us has completely evaporated. There aren’t enough players left to support our lynch, hence, we’re not waking up tomorrow morning.
The good thing is, town is going to be in great hands. Gen and Teia have been absolutely solid and I have faith in them that they will win this for us. Gaymers has been looking good ever since they handily diffused my Flamingo/Gaymers confbias scum team (Wheat slapping me around a little, and me actually getting some sleep for a change helped too).
So tomorrow, I need you guys to follow up with EDH, and especially with the uber lurky Flamingo—which I still have a nagging suspicion of. The thing is, my case is still wrapped up in with Gaymers confbias case that I crashed and burned with, so I really need you guys to step it up and go over Flamingo with a fine-toothed comb.
I’m starting a major new work project this next week that will eat up all of my time, and Wheat is super busy with his new university responsibilities, so we wouldn’t be able to dedicate the time and effort anyway, hence why I’ve been giving it my all toDay and making us an irresistible nightkill target for scum.
So Gen, Teia (Gaymers too): Please follow up with EDH and please please please take a super close look at Flamingo. There just has to be something there—there has to be!
Good luck guys! I’m counting on you!
@Kank: Can't provide a full towncase right now, but here is my in-thread reasoning I've mentioned in my other posts:
Quote from Flamingos »
Their posts also read genuine.
Quote from Flamingos »
While some of the things you guys have said made me second guess a bit (the self-awareness, and fencesitting in #50, for one) you guys have had a string of genuine town posts I struggle to see from two players playing their first games as scum.
Human is coming from a mindset of trying to solve the game - that's why he's voting us (but we're town). Human's asking of why Crafters are voting them and Bur's and Human's transparency in #68 and #75 are making me townread them.
Quote from Flamingos »
I noted down some things that were making me nervous about EDH, but I'm willing to overlook classical tells (self-awareness) in favor of mindset-orientated analysis (those genuine town posts by Human) every time.
Bur's "I'm town" analysis isn't that great, but I think the thought process he was explaining was darn transparent.
@Generic: You're dismissing Bur's analysis as simply "filler" - explain to me the scum mindset of holding off the lynch to do that.
Quote from Wheat »
I take the extraordinary opinion that EDH's analysis, while thoroughly useless, is town-based.
Was out at my girlfriend's all yesterday and had Legacy today so I didn't have too much time for this game. I'll offer some parting thoughts before the end of the game day, though.
There's slightly smaller chance of town hitting mafia and it'd be easier to coax people to mislynch, since one hasn't happened yet. Also, we get more information (the indentities of the dead ones), even in the case of mislycnh. Of course, there's the small chance of doctor (assuming we even have one) guessing correct, but that isn't really too high of a chance.
This feels like information instead of analysis. Puts a bunch of words out there, which ultimately don't mean a whole lot.
I really don't like when people get all coy like this. Why not just say it outright if you're set on answering a question like that about your role, especially since we're so close to the deadline that "waiting for TA to answer" is an easy way of saying "I don't actually intend to answer but I want to make it look like I do"? Cryptic "yes and no" nonsense doesn't really do anything.
Bur's "I'm town" analysis isn't that great, but I think the thought process he was explaining was darn transparent.
Transparency doesn't necessarily translate into townieness. Scum can be transparent about their thought processes while attempting to seem town, after all. You're putting a lot of weight on things being "transparent" and "genuine" as if those are ends unto themselves. They aren't, really. There's always the need to ask, "and what does this mean about their alignment?" Why are they being genuine? Is there anything they're not being genuine about? How does that compare to the things they are? Are there contexts in which scum players could be doing the same thing as town players? And so on and so forth.
- Teia
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
Between work and school I haven't had the chance to keep up with this, going to try and catch up now and answer anything that may have been pointed at me, before my next class. Sorry for the absence.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Was out at my girlfriend's all yesterday and had Legacy today so I didn't have too much time for this game. I'll offer some parting thoughts before the end of the game day, though.
There's slightly smaller chance of town hitting mafia and it'd be easier to coax people to mislynch, since one hasn't happened yet. Also, we get more information (the indentities of the dead ones), even in the case of mislycnh. Of course, there's the small chance of doctor (assuming we even have one) guessing correct, but that isn't really too high of a chance.
This feels like information instead of analysis. Puts a bunch of words out there, which ultimately don't mean a whole lot.
I really don't like when people get all coy like this. Why not just say it outright if you're set on answering a question like that about your role, especially since we're so close to the deadline that "waiting for TA to answer" is an easy way of saying "I don't actually intend to answer but I want to make it look like I do"? Cryptic "yes and no" nonsense doesn't really do anything.
Bur's "I'm town" analysis isn't that great, but I think the thought process he was explaining was darn transparent.
Transparency doesn't necessarily translate into townieness. Scum can be transparent about their thought processes while attempting to seem town, after all. You're putting a lot of weight on things being "transparent" and "genuine" as if those are ends unto themselves. They aren't, really. There's always the need to ask, "and what does this mean about their alignment?" Why are they being genuine? Is there anything they're not being genuine about? How does that compare to the things they are? Are there contexts in which scum players could be doing the same thing as town players? And so on and so forth.
- Teia
I'm going to talk to bur in the qt about what to do, but it seems clear that the vote is to be placed on TTA, I am unsure what the current vote count is which is a bit confusing. (going to go back through our posts to see where ours lies currently.
In reference to you though Teia, it should be blatantly obvious to a town what Bur is doing and why he's being coy.
Since it has been asked: If the deadline has expired before a player reaches lynch threshold, the Day will end with a lynch on the player with the most votes on them at the time...as with all of my games unless stated otherwise. In the event of a tie, the first person with more votes on them first will be lynched.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It's become clear to both bur and I that TTA has had strings of scummy behavior throughout the game. For my own personal opinion on the matter I noticed his continued redirecting of accusations. As well as the current scramble to do anything to stay alive, I read his posts as attempts to discredit anyone at all if possible to make it unclear whether we should lynch.
I waited for bur for confirmation and he has given it to me. Last I remember our vote was on Crafters. so:
UNVOTE
Vote Tolarian Academy
As an aside, I find Crafters post strange, claiming they will be nk'd and that it's good that they will because they're both going to be busy the next few days and won't be able to play. I find this strange, why state this and possibly cause the scum to not NK you? At the same time it seems to set up the scenario for the next day when they aren't nk'd so they don't look suspicious. If Crafters survives the night I strongly recommend looking at them, not only for the obvious reason of "why has the scum allowed them to survive if they are best town?" but also because of this strange choice in timing to set up their position for tomorrow.
I considered waiting until tomorrow to say this, but if for some reason scum feels the need to NK edh I wanted everyone to be aware of what I picked up on.
EDH's vote feels like a bus where they'll kill someone other than Crafters overnight and try to fuel suspicion on Crafters tomorrow.
I think EDH should be the top priority for scrutiny tomorrow. That post was hella scummy and I can't think of a town motivation for the things they're saying.
- Teia
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The Tolarian Academy (4): Clan Flamingo (88), The Family (284), Gaymers (342), The Crafters (343)
The Crafters (1): Spirit of EDH (238)
The Family (1): The Tolarian Academy (288)
Not Voting: MTGS Brigade
That is a lynch.
For future reference, once lynch threshold has been reached, all votes are locked in as-is.
-
"My children.
Have you brought me a traitor, my children?"
"Yes, father! Here!"
The Homunculi push The Tolarian Academy towards Father.
"Very well. Let us begin the purge."
Father dropped The Tolarian Academy into the vat from whence all of the Homunculi came. They burned into molten slag.
The remnants of their essence floated into the air, revealing their true nature.
The Tolarian Academy has been lynched. They were Envy, Town Vanilla.
It is now Night 1. All Night actions are due 72 hours from this post.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm just going to put this out there now because we're in Lylo.
I'm Wrath, town watcher.
I targeted Crafters overnight. My result indicated no one targeted him, which to me suggests I was roleblocked.
Everything I said in my last post yesterday still holds. I think EDH's last post is scummy as hell, and nitpicking the way Academy claimed is still eyebrow-raising. That huge case/OMGUS he did on Crafters in 238, accusing them of basically leveraging their image to their own advantage, looks especially bad now. I'll analyze yesterday more in light of these flips later, but I wanted to get this out there as soon as possible for the sake of providing as much useful information as I can as soon as I can.
- Teia
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"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
Or I get a clarification stating that it was, in fact, not a roleblocker.
Either way, setup speculation isn't why I'm claiming now. It's to help narrow the pool of suspects down. Whether or not we want to continue on to a mass claim is another subject for discussion. Personally, I think it's a good idea, but let's hear what everyone else has to say.
- Teia
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"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
I'm going to be honest, Bur and I were heavily leaning on a Crafters/Brigade scum team, we've been typing analysis for most of yesterday and today, so seeing this is rather unnerving.
Bur told me he believes a roleclain is something we'd want coming into today, EDH is Town Vanilla
Teia, feel free to go ahead and question us, we have nothing to hide.
I claimed because I had a relevant if puzzling result and because it would narrow the field of suspects down. I only suggested we discuss a mass claim, not that we start claiming outright, and here you are leaping on the claim train with a VT claim. By contrast to my claim, a VT claim doesn't really add anything of significant value—it doesn't narrow the suspect field or provide much analyzable information. Furthermore, there's no hint of what that "yes and no" answer to whether you're VT in 340 meant. You provided a qualified claim there, and an unqualified claim here. Human said it should be "blatantly obvious" what that meant, but perhaps you could spell it out if you're so eager to claim without a prior discussion.
Furthermore, what's unnerving for you to see? Why is it unnerving?
You were heavily leaning on a Crafters/Brigade scum team, but you unvoted Crafters and then voted Academy right before the deadline? What was up with that?
- Teia
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"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
EBWODP: Also, I guess we should see what this analysis you were typing entails, since it sounds like you have a fair bit of it, if only to analyze your logic if not your conclusions.
- Teia
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"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
Anyways, I ask of the rest of you kindly to do two things:
- Please Unvote. We don't want mafia suddenly jumping the with that one mis-vote town makes. (Since it requires 3 to kill, one misvote for town from town can cost us the game.)
- Please provide us with ALL the information you have (assuming you have any). This includes your role and all data aquired from it. (Like said, we are in Lynch-or-Lose -situation, so it's better to be open about every bit of information than hide it in fear of mafia).
@Brigade: The thing that caught my eye was TA's #311, where they claimed "Vanilla Townie" and after I told him that the wording was off, he refused to correct it, which sounded like my mafia refusing the answer as they didn't know the correct answer (which was "Town Vanilla"). Like we saw with Crafter's case too, the correct wording for a role is Town [Role], not [Role] Town or [Role] Townie.
And this brings me back to Gaymers and their question in #333, where they too used incorrect wording...
Oh, and one last thing: What do you mean by "Or I get a clarification that it was not a role blocker", Brigade?
To refer to the "obvious" thing, he was asking the EXACT wording of the role given, "Town Vanilla" being what we received, if you are indeed town watcher then it is clear that's why you didn't understand his question. We were unsure if there were other roles in this game, thus why bur was suspicious of people claiming "Vanilla townie," "Vanilla Town" and the like, also, TTA clearly realized what Bur was asking because he even references it and says he won't reveal anything in case someone slips. However, the admins revealed the wording when TTA was lynched so the cat is now out of the proverbial bag.
So the "yes and no" was because you asked: "are you not 'vanilla town'" Yes we are a vanilla and a town but no we are not "vanilla town." We are "Town Vanilla."
I think it's unnerving because I was thoroughly convinced something was going on, I think you guys call it confbias? So to see that I was so obviously wrong about crafters is a bit of a jolt. Now it seems I'll have to start again and reanalyze the other posters, specifically flamingo and gaymers, I believe those were Crafter's main targets after ourselves.
As for your comment on it being irrelevant to reveal, would it have been more or less alarming had I said that I didn't want to share our role.
I'll post up what I had so far, I think bur has more than me because I had to take a few days away from the comp for school and work (first week of both) but I'll post what I have for analysis.
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@TA:
(Answer Brigade's questions first)
So Flamingo is town then?
Why would that worry you?
Ah, but you did. In post #218, you wrote:
So I'll ask again, Why did my question posed to Flamingo of "Why would you risk the game on an assumption instead of actively scumhunting?" not appear right to you?
What was 'that' then? You need to be way more specific.
No, not about how you would look at things, about how others look at you. Why do you fear the scrutiny of others?
Not enough by any means. You've been actively avoiding talking about or responding to Brigade's questions. In what way would it allow Brigade to 'agree' and make a scummish post?
How is that even possible?
My question: Why are you trying to protect EDH while trying to imply that there is knowledge to be hidden about them?
In regards to your line in post 240:
What is this knowledge of EDH that needs to be hidden?
I am completely serious. As far as I can tell, it has something to do with Wheat making some comment about fishing. What's the deal?
If I don't ask -those- questions, nobody else is going to ask them. There's no limited number of questions in the game and whoever asks them first wins. If I ask a question, it's because I want to know the answer or want clarity on someone's thought processes. How can my asking questions stop others from asking them too?
How am I exceedingly relevant and why?
Yes, I want to know what you consider to be scumtells and why. Why does that baffle you?
You didn't hold to this philosophy, yet you wouldn't ever want to read anybody as Town?
So EDH is in your "Not scummy yet" category or what?
Then what are you saying to Wheat here in #279:
What caused me to square my innocence with you and why?
Why be so supportive of EDH yet have an "oh look! we're being suspicious of them there" moment?
You'll learn to stop if Town loses this game?
I'm having a really tough time seeing whining about not being able to easily mislynch strong town players coming from a town mindset.
-Kankennon-
Since Human is still gone, I guess I'll soon have to grab the reins complitely.
@TA: Now, why do you think this matter is funny? Why are you laughing? To me, you don't seem to be taking this seriously.
~Bur
Aaaaaaand my computer caught a virus. Posting from an iPad :/
Apologies, this was me.
@EDH: Gaymers is town.
Vote: Tolarian Academy
I think they're scum, I want them lynched, and I don't want any more dancing around obvious claim time. I strongly prefer their lynch over EDH.
-Kraj
I should've posted something yesterday but I didn't realize then that I have about 3x as much to do as I thought I did.
I only had time to skim but it looks like Tolarian is about to get lynched and I support it. I'll try to respond to stuff before the deadline but I make no promises.
-Wheat
TA & EDH still have questions of mine to answer.
-Kankennon-
~scarbo
I'm trying to get clues period, especially in case you're a persecuted flailing town instead. Outright calling yourself flailing scum is not helping your case in that regard.
What are you trying to get EDH or Flamingos to do?
I've never seen a game of mafia end Day 1 with a no lynch. Sure, deadlines can hit, but whoever has the most votes will get it at that point (in most cases, depending on the game).
Those quoted words aren't mine. Whose are they?
As to why Wheat made that comment about fishing, I have no idea.
Wheat?
Then what's with all of the repeated questions from you and EDH involving Wheat's fishing analogy? That would be like asking Wheat why I made a reference to Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer earlier in the game.
I am trying to gain more insight into your thought processes. Not everyone processes information in the same way.
I'm trying my best to make sure town does not lose this game. I don't want to go into N1 with questions left unanswered, since there's no guarantee that I'll be here D2 to follow anything up personally.
Who are the "other townies" then specifically?
Why did you say were town instead of are town?
Do you want TA to claim first?
-Kankennon-
Expect catch-up coming tomorrow.
~p
-Kraj
I'd really like to hear from EDH and see what Flamingo has to offer before this day ends.
If that doesn't happen, somebody follow up D2 for me, okay?
-Kankennon-
@Family: Are you town?
@Brigade: Are you town?
@Flamingo: Are you town?
Then, this one caught my eye:
Notice the difference? One of these statements is more natural, other one is really emphasized.
Now, who would he do that...?
And this one brings me to the last thing:
@TA: You are telling us that your role is "a Vanilla Townie"?
@Crafters: Well, I too would like to hear from Human. He was supposed to be "back again" couple of days ago, but I haven't heard anything from him since...
~Bur
I see TTA's vanilla claim, and I'm fine proceeding with the lynch.
I'm reading your EDH case and your most relevant point is the "interesting" phrasing. Everything else either is summarizing or tying themselves to TTA.
I read post 95 and I see EDH just providing more insight into their thought processes. I'm not getting why you think they're scum.
No. Have you been reading my posts? I've stated Brigade is my strongest town read.
This makes me feel a bit better about Crafters. I think scum would continue pushing rather than being suddenly humble like this.
I'm caught up and ready to proceed with the lynch. If anyone would like to ask any questions I'd be more than happy to answer them.
Yes. What is the purpose of this question?
~p
Well go round him up then! We have some business to discuss!
What's with having everyone say they are town? What are you hoping to gain from this?
-Kankennon-
Absolutely. Just EDH right now, please. If you have time for TA too afterwards, by all means.
-Kankennon-
Okay, forget about that part.
@Family, Brigade, Flamingo: Please hardclaim to be a town. (Don't answer that question "Are you town?", but hardclaim it).
He's not answering to me in QT nor here, so...
If I had a better way to contact him, I would've used it already.
~Bur
I already got answers from TA, Gaymers and Crafters but I'd like to hear the rest before I say anything more regarding this all.
~Bur
You answered after a hell of a lot of prodding. I'm more unhappy about that than your answers, frankly, since deliberately dodging a very plain and straightforward question (and subsequent followup) is scummy as hell.
And this is just WIFOM.
What would you say if I said this feels like you're busing your buddy? But in any case, what I'd prefer you answer is how this kind of semantic nitpicking is townie, because it feels like you're just taking a shot for the sake of taking a shot. I mean, of all the reactions to a VT claim, picking apart the syntax is pretty loose.
All right, let's see where this goes. I'm town.
And I don't want to see the lynch until we see where this "make everyone claim town" thing is going.
- Teia
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
I'm town. Wheat's town. All Crafters are town. Delicious, creamy town.
@EDH: Everyone has hardclaimed to be town now. (Flamingo multiple times: twice in #162 and again in #263)
Are you going to explain yourself now?
-Kankennon-
So, first of all, I was less interested in the outcome of these answers (the question didn't even matter nor the answers per se), but what I wanted to hear is how would you answer them. Now, here are them all:
First, let's start with things to look for. When lying, most people don't want others to pay too much attention to their lie, so obviously things like avoiding the question or turning the attention to other direction are sign of lie. Now, if one needs to lie, the most easiest way is to give short answer that answers the question but doesn't give any "unneeded" information, and preferably even giving the answer via repeating the words of a question (eg. "Did you clean your room?" -> "I cleaned my room"). However, also overexplaining ("I cleaned my room: I first used vacuum cleaner, then swiped the dust from the bookshelf and after all that I mopped my room") is a a sign of lie (because, in that case, you are not only trying to make the others believe, but yourself as well).
Then, for the tone of the answer. While I can't hear your voice over the internet, I have to rely on the tone of your answer. Now, what kinds of tone do people tend to use when lying? Either "confess" sarcastically ("Of course I didn't clean my room") where you technically aren't lying, you are just letting others think that the opposite is true or turn it into a joke ("*laugh* You think I didn't remember to clean my room?") or implying it ("My room is much better shape now that it used to be"), where it might be true, but doesn't still tell the exact answer to the question.
Then, for the language used: While lying, most people tend to use really commonly used and "neutral" words, making the answer as bland and normal as possible. ("I cleaned it"). However, the opposite also hold: When people are not lying (and have no need to be wary about and can relax, they tend to use bit more... imaginative language ("Yeah, I sanitized every nook and cranny of my room, now it's all clean!"). Also, when lying, people tend to emphasize the lie to make drive it home ("Of course. I did not forget to clean my room") and quite commonly, don't use abbreviations while doing this.
... and this leads us back to this one:
Notice the difference now? This is a textbook example on emphasizing a lie.
Anyways, here's my conclusions:
Crafters: While uses "We're town", they also use tad playful expression here, which just doesn't seem like something liar would do. -> Not lying.
Gaymers: Doesn't use "We're town" and says is with their own words, so... -> Not lying.
Family: "We're town". Short, uninformative, nothing to say about this one. -> Lying?
Brigade: "We're town". Ditto. -> Lying?
Flamingo: "We're town". Ditto. However, these claims were from several days ago and comparing them to these claims I asked can make them bit less valid. Otherwise: -> Lying?
TA: "lel" made me really worried. While I can't be exactly sure whether it fills the category of "laughing about the matter" or not, the tone of it sounded to me a bit of an attempt to laugh this whole matter off. -> Lying
But, we are starting to run out of time.
@TA: Please answer my question asked you in #314.
~Bur
^(Yeah, that was me.)
~Bur
Bur, you're not even analyzing what was said by whom using these rules of yours that you set forth.
Both Family and Brigade said "I'm town" not "We're town" as you concluded.
TA said "I'm town" preceded by lel.
Flamingo was the only clan you quoted saying "We're town" (twice), both followed by their assurances of another clan being town. (Your rule of turning the attention to a different direction.)
So does that mean Flamingo is the next scum after TA on your town hardclaim analysis questionnaire or what?
-Kankennon-
@Mods: Current Votecount please, and clarification of exactly when on the 22nd the deadline hits.
@All: Please wait to hammer. There are still questions left unanswered, especially from EDH.
-Kankennon-
For a role in this game: Nope. Does one even exist?
RL: Sorry, but "lie detecting" is not easy. For it to be almost fool-proof, I would need to see you in flesh and have known you for years. Therefore, this all is with textbook-level.
Human has never played this game (or so he said). I've played this game for several years already, but only in real life with real people. My every thought and action in this game is based in my experice in RL-mafia.
Nope. Human has been the one to push Crafters, but I haven't heard about him for several days (he doesn't reply to me even in QT). I approved his attempts to push Crafters. And, basing my whole game in one analysis would be wrong. That one is drop in the ocean, I just said that this one analysis of the many, and just gives directions.
Then finally:
@TA: What really made me rise my eyebrows was simply that "a Vanilla Townie" is incorrect name for the role. I'll buy your explanation if you can give me the name Iso gave to that role in this game.
Also, the deadline is tomorrow. I'd prefer to get things done before we hit the deadline, since 2-to-4 situation would be better to mafia then 2-to-3. There's slightly smaller chance of town hitting mafia and it'd be easier to coax people to mislynch, since one hasn't happened yet. Also, we get more information (the indentities of the dead ones), even in the case of mislycnh. Of course, there's the small chance of doctor (assuming we even have one) guessing correct, but that isn't really too high of a chance.
(Crafters or Family bringing out the "mafia mindset" in my last paragraph incoming in 3... 2... 1...)
~Bur
I probably won't have a full rebuttal to EDH's reply to my case but I may pick and choose.
I take the extraordinary opinion that EDH's analysis, while thoroughly useless, is town-based.
I'm still conflicted on their alignment but that's something I'll wait until toMorrow to figure out.
-Wheat
That's exactly what I thought and the main reason I settled on TA. Instead we get a bunch of distracting nonsense at a crucial time. Considering how much H_H looks like he's sincerely trying to contribute before he dies (would caught scum put that much effort into defense without also attacking another viable lynch target?) I'm strongly considering voting EDH.
Are you vanilla town?
Why did you feel the need to explain why lynching is better than not lynching?
-Kraj
No.
Key word is 'viable'. Who's going to lynch you over him, so what's the point in attacking you if he's scum?
Your other points are all valid and I'm still in on TAs lynch. But I have serious problems with EDHs post and I'd rather not see the hammer come down just yet.
-Kraj
I skimmed most of Kank's questions and the replies since 1. there's a lot of it I didn't feel like reading and 2. Kank's on top of it nicely.
There wasn't much besides that to comment on so this is a smaller post than I expected. I hope toMorrow I'll be able to contribute to the game more again if we survive the Night.
This is more OoG than anything, but isn't the point of mafia at least partially as a source of entertainment?
I think this was EDH trying desperately to do something to help find scum and I therefore consider it town. Scum can also do desperate attempts to try to "hunt" scum but this felt genuine, unlike that of a scum.
---
I'm down for the Tolarian Academy lynch. Kank is ready to put down the hammer later today, I'll leave it in his hands.
-Wheat
I'm at work right now and have no time for anything long.
@Mods: Votecount and specific deadline---PLEASE
Just in case our vote is still on EDH (I don't think Wheat ever unvoted them):
Unvote
ToDay is TA day.
Even if I'm not here toMorrow, somebody please get EDH (Human) to answer my questions.
Thank you.
-Kankennon-
Yes and no. (I'll get to this after TA answers).
I thought it would be good to make my thought-process clear to you, instead of someone asking right after "why do you think like this?"
I guess/hope he'll do so, assuming he'd get back here. He hasn't replied to me in QT for several days, hasn't been active here with his main account. If you have an idea how to reach him, I'll gladly do so.
Also, where is TA? Tomorrow is the deadline and he's missing. (Of course there's the chance of RL happening, but that'd be too convenient, just right before deadline...)
~Bur
I'm not clearing you, at all. I found you less scummy and EDH moreso. However, during my reread I found Bur explaining how he's olny played IRL before, which is a reasonable alternate explaination for his behavior, even though the timing was horrible.
Vote: Tolarian Academy
Okay, I’m done with waiting for answers to my questions.
We’re out of time, and I have a major work deadline tomorrow, so even if we had another day, I wouldn’t be able to use it.
I totally get that we are going to be the NK tonight. We are on more town lists than anyone and any tiny suspicion of us has completely evaporated. There aren’t enough players left to support our lynch, hence, we’re not waking up tomorrow morning.
The good thing is, town is going to be in great hands. Gen and Teia have been absolutely solid and I have faith in them that they will win this for us. Gaymers has been looking good ever since they handily diffused my Flamingo/Gaymers confbias scum team (Wheat slapping me around a little, and me actually getting some sleep for a change helped too).
So tomorrow, I need you guys to follow up with EDH, and especially with the uber lurky Flamingo—which I still have a nagging suspicion of. The thing is, my case is still wrapped up in with Gaymers confbias case that I crashed and burned with, so I really need you guys to step it up and go over Flamingo with a fine-toothed comb.
I’m starting a major new work project this next week that will eat up all of my time, and Wheat is super busy with his new university responsibilities, so we wouldn’t be able to dedicate the time and effort anyway, hence why I’ve been giving it my all toDay and making us an irresistible nightkill target for scum.
So Gen, Teia (Gaymers too): Please follow up with EDH and please please please take a super close look at Flamingo. There just has to be something there—there has to be!
Good luck guys! I’m counting on you!
Vote Tolarian Academy
-Kankennon-
Bur's "I'm town" analysis isn't that great, but I think the thought process he was explaining was darn transparent.
@Generic: You're dismissing Bur's analysis as simply "filler" - explain to me the scum mindset of holding off the lynch to do that.
~p
This feels like information instead of analysis. Puts a bunch of words out there, which ultimately don't mean a whole lot.
I really don't like when people get all coy like this. Why not just say it outright if you're set on answering a question like that about your role, especially since we're so close to the deadline that "waiting for TA to answer" is an easy way of saying "I don't actually intend to answer but I want to make it look like I do"? Cryptic "yes and no" nonsense doesn't really do anything.
Transparency doesn't necessarily translate into townieness. Scum can be transparent about their thought processes while attempting to seem town, after all. You're putting a lot of weight on things being "transparent" and "genuine" as if those are ends unto themselves. They aren't, really. There's always the need to ask, "and what does this mean about their alignment?" Why are they being genuine? Is there anything they're not being genuine about? How does that compare to the things they are? Are there contexts in which scum players could be doing the same thing as town players? And so on and so forth.
- Teia
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
~Human
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm going to talk to bur in the qt about what to do, but it seems clear that the vote is to be placed on TTA, I am unsure what the current vote count is which is a bit confusing. (going to go back through our posts to see where ours lies currently.
In reference to you though Teia, it should be blatantly obvious to a town what Bur is doing and why he's being coy.
~Human
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I waited for bur for confirmation and he has given it to me. Last I remember our vote was on Crafters. so:
UNVOTE
Vote Tolarian Academy
As an aside, I find Crafters post strange, claiming they will be nk'd and that it's good that they will because they're both going to be busy the next few days and won't be able to play. I find this strange, why state this and possibly cause the scum to not NK you? At the same time it seems to set up the scenario for the next day when they aren't nk'd so they don't look suspicious. If Crafters survives the night I strongly recommend looking at them, not only for the obvious reason of "why has the scum allowed them to survive if they are best town?" but also because of this strange choice in timing to set up their position for tomorrow.
I considered waiting until tomorrow to say this, but if for some reason scum feels the need to NK edh I wanted everyone to be aware of what I picked up on.
~Human
I think EDH should be the top priority for scrutiny tomorrow. That post was hella scummy and I can't think of a town motivation for the things they're saying.
- Teia
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The Tolarian Academy (4): Clan Flamingo (88), The Family (284), Gaymers (342), The Crafters (343)
The Crafters (1): Spirit of EDH (238)
The Family (1): The Tolarian Academy (288)
Not Voting: MTGS Brigade
That is a lynch.
For future reference, once lynch threshold has been reached, all votes are locked in as-is.
-
"My children.
Have you brought me a traitor, my children?"
"Yes, father! Here!"
The Homunculi push The Tolarian Academy towards Father.
"Very well. Let us begin the purge."
Father dropped The Tolarian Academy into the vat from whence all of the Homunculi came. They burned into molten slag.
The remnants of their essence floated into the air, revealing their true nature.
The Tolarian Academy has been lynched. They were Envy, Town Vanilla.
It is now Night 1. All Night actions are due 72 hours from this post.
No posting until Day 2.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The Crafters have been killed. They were Greed, Town Tracker.
It is now Day 2. With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Deadline is set for September 7th at 0000.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm Wrath, town watcher.
I targeted Crafters overnight. My result indicated no one targeted him, which to me suggests I was roleblocked.
Everything I said in my last post yesterday still holds. I think EDH's last post is scummy as hell, and nitpicking the way Academy claimed is still eyebrow-raising. That huge case/OMGUS he did on Crafters in 238, accusing them of basically leveraging their image to their own advantage, looks especially bad now. I'll analyze yesterday more in light of these flips later, but I wanted to get this out there as soon as possible for the sake of providing as much useful information as I can as soon as I can.
- Teia
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
Either way, setup speculation isn't why I'm claiming now. It's to help narrow the pool of suspects down. Whether or not we want to continue on to a mass claim is another subject for discussion. Personally, I think it's a good idea, but let's hear what everyone else has to say.
- Teia
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
Bur told me he believes a roleclain is something we'd want coming into today, EDH is Town Vanilla
Teia, feel free to go ahead and question us, we have nothing to hide.
~Human
To be exact, sorry about that, forgot the original sin we were assigned.
~Human
Furthermore, what's unnerving for you to see? Why is it unnerving?
You were heavily leaning on a Crafters/Brigade scum team, but you unvoted Crafters and then voted Academy right before the deadline? What was up with that?
- Teia
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
- Teia
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
Anyways, I ask of the rest of you kindly to do two things:
- Please Unvote. We don't want mafia suddenly jumping the with that one mis-vote town makes. (Since it requires 3 to kill, one misvote for town from town can cost us the game.)
- Please provide us with ALL the information you have (assuming you have any). This includes your role and all data aquired from it. (Like said, we are in Lynch-or-Lose -situation, so it's better to be open about every bit of information than hide it in fear of mafia).
@Brigade: The thing that caught my eye was TA's #311, where they claimed "Vanilla Townie" and after I told him that the wording was off, he refused to correct it, which sounded like my mafia refusing the answer as they didn't know the correct answer (which was "Town Vanilla"). Like we saw with Crafter's case too, the correct wording for a role is Town [Role], not [Role] Town or [Role] Townie.
And this brings me back to Gaymers and their question in #333, where they too used incorrect wording...
Oh, and one last thing: What do you mean by "Or I get a clarification that it was not a role blocker", Brigade?
~Bur
So the "yes and no" was because you asked: "are you not 'vanilla town'" Yes we are a vanilla and a town but no we are not "vanilla town." We are "Town Vanilla."
I think it's unnerving because I was thoroughly convinced something was going on, I think you guys call it confbias? So to see that I was so obviously wrong about crafters is a bit of a jolt. Now it seems I'll have to start again and reanalyze the other posters, specifically flamingo and gaymers, I believe those were Crafter's main targets after ourselves.
As for your comment on it being irrelevant to reveal, would it have been more or less alarming had I said that I didn't want to share our role.
I'll post up what I had so far, I think bur has more than me because I had to take a few days away from the comp for school and work (first week of both) but I'll post what I have for analysis.