So, are we doing a SNL bandwagon? I'd be more than happy to give the last two votes if we get five on him.
I think you should ask for permission before placing your votes if the player you're voting is anywhere near the lynch threshold... We don't want to end the day early.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
So, are we doing a SNL bandwagon? I'd be more than happy to give the last two votes if we get five on him.
I think you should ask for permission before placing your votes if the player you're voting is anywhere near the lynch threshold... We don't want to end the day early.
Will consolidate my overall thoughts tonight or tomorrow morning. Also still waiting on SNL's response but, spoiler alert, I feel good about this vote.
SNL - if you think I was angling hard for LnGr to look scummy than which of my points did you think weren't legit and why? If fulcrum was /barning play that you thought looked scummy, then walk me through the logic of the town read based on her play in Waltz.
I towncleared hans because I played scum with him in [Llamas with Hats] and correctly nightkilled him as a power role in [Porcelain Waltz].
These two lines are making my skin crawl. This is damn-near the same thing Rhand did in Marvel Madness 2 after Hayate ended and I called him out for it there. Providing scum games with no prompting is incredibly self-aware.
Disagree DKings. SNL mentioned his scumgame recently completed to explain why he wasn't around, and explained his scum game with Hans to show he had experience with both town!Hans and scum!Hans.
KoolKoal, why do you think people are suspecting you lately? Assuming you read this.
@Hookerpunch, asking again, when will you start being able to see those signs of scum you were mentioning?
For those granting SNL a "soul bound cloak of scumminess", did you ever answer the question of how you can tell scum!SNL vs town!SNL?
SNL, would you say there are differences in your town/scum game? Don't need meta, just an honest answer of your opinion.
First, case on KoolKoal: Basically actively lurked for most of the game. The first post he made gave me an initial town reaction as it seemed zealous about a read on 6Cs and then raised a question about my motives, a player who most were town reading at the time. But, 6Cs would have been hard not to suspect early on with his play and aggressively pressing there makes sense. Then he took a stance on me that was basically, "why are you pressuring LnGr and pressuring 6Cs as an aside?" which I thought was just poor logic at the time because I was pressuring both, but I wasn't going to move my vote from LnGr to 6Cs, with the read I had on LnGr. But since that, KoolKoal really stopped doing much of anything of worth proactively. His participation has almost entirely been self-centric, just responding to anything hinting at suspecting him since then, and mostly avoiding active discussions going on in game.
The below is the entirety of his content after what I mentioned above (and those were three posts):
the wording “It's often a good play for scum to only nod at the popular wagon while pushing another,” feels like a cop out
Explain in more depth please.
SNL having a poor grasp of the game-state is just standard play for him, regardless of his alignment.
I still find DCIII's reasoning on LnGrrrR to be on the weak side (except for where DC said LnGrrrR seemed to be trying to defuse the situation, I could see that).
The first sentence is a reaction to suspicion directed his way (more to come on this one as he uses this question to avoid a lot of the game later). The second sentence is a defense of SNL. The third sentence is telling of his mindset. He takes time to back up his stance that he found my reasoning weak but isn't doing anything with it, not asserting that I'm scum, not pressing me, etc. He adds a qualifier that he could see one part of the case - but doesn't following up on LnGr, either. It's a vacuous statement written with the mentality of explaining his initial stance but with no scum hunting purpose. The whole point of that point is to hedge. "I still think I was right, but I can also see what he was talking about here." No initiative, not doing anything with it, not making any declarative statements on what he thinks it means about either of our alignment.
Normally, I try not to quote things out of context, but damn if this doesn't like something a pissed off scum would say to a scummate who's going down.
Meanwhile, you ignored questions from both myself and DCIII.
Now is taking on to and backing up one of my questions in his next post - but also isn't doing anything with it, isn't commenting on any of the rest of the goings on in the game. There are MANY other things to interact with or pressure or take stances on at this point in the game but KoolKoal's focus is on a point the cast suspicion on him, basically using an unanswered question as a way to ignore everything else. Very active lurking in trying to appear to be doing something but not really doing much of anything in the larger context.
Still waiting on Fulcrum showing up and answering my question.
/barn everyone asking for more info on SNL's list. I had resolved to give him a pass until later in the game because it's impossible for him to look townie, but this is too much inconsistency to ignore.
Next post. Still doing almost nothing regarding the game but waiting for fulcrum - throws a /barn on the wagon on SNL without adding much other reasoning but still doesn't vote (if KoolKoal is scum then I think it looks worse for SNL, btw). Again, active lurking waiting on the question, adding non-committal support to a popular opinion.
This is the second time in a row (in between huge gaps of inactivity, I might add) that you've ignored everything going on in thread, including two questions pointed directly at you, only to focus on Niv with a bunch points, most of which don't actually make him scum, the rest of which aren't real points. You also ignored Niv's response to your awful "I don't normally quote out of context, but..." so you could continue pressuring him as if you'd done nothing wrong.
Then this comes after fulcrum posts again. Firstly, this is hypocritical considering that all of the posts I just quoted are all of KoolKoal's content for 100 posts and he's largely ignored everything happening in the game except for waiting on this fulcrum response. He's the one ignoring everything going on in the thread and she'd posted an entire T/S list at this point. His /barn on the pressure on SNL has seemed to be forgotten.
@koal: you're one to talk about huge gaps of inactivity.
Fair. I've actually been around enough to post more, but I have trouble getting strong enough reads to be worth sharing Day 1. I'd be posting more if people interacted with me more, but thus far its only been HP with nothing for me to respond to.
So, are we doing a SNL bandwagon? I'd be more than happy to give the last two votes if we get five on him.
I think you should ask for permission before placing your votes if the player you're voting is anywhere near the lynch threshold... We don't want to end the day early.
These are the kinds of posts that are designed to look helpful and townie but again add nothing from a scum hunting perspective and don't advance the game in any way. It would be one thing if a post like this was tacked onto another one with another purpose or if it was a stand alone post from an active player who had been scum hunting, but from KoolKoal, it just looks like an attempt to look busy/helpful since Niv called him out on his activity.
So that's the case on KoolKoal - bad logic early, mostly just focused on interactions with himself (self-centric focus not used for scum hunting purposes is also indicative of scum as they're more trying not to get caught than figure anything else out), extreme active lurking sense his opening, avoiding plenty of relevant game discussion.
As for SNL - I had been town reading SNL earlier because it seemed to me that he was playing without fear and I thought that the point on him regarding the vote on 6Cs after his double vote was bad and seemed to have an agenda. I don't see a scum motivation for realizing that a player's intention was to double vote, then voting that player anyway while ignoring that aspect of their play. All that's going to do is get added scrutiny on you for voting the player who just double voted, which doesn't seem very scum motivated.
I think Niv summed it up pretty well. Fulcrum's RVS post was a naked barn, which feels odd to me when everyone is supposed to be at least slightly jovial. A naked vote prevents any self conscious slips.
I agree with this. I was going to point out fulcrum's naked RVS before I got distracted by cccccc's terrible case of flipflop.
@fulcrum: Why expose yourself in post #50 if you wanted to illicit reactions with your naked vote? LnGrrrR was the only one to comment on it; what does his reaction tell you?
Your pushing on LnGrrrR looks scummy, while fulcrum's barning looks town from my play with her in [Porcelain Waltz]. Why would two scum gang up on a single player this early in the game, blatantly agreeing with each other, especially in a Mini?
He thought it was scummy when LnGr called it out, but is now saying that he thought it was town from his play in Waltz.
Unvote: Vote: SelesnyaNewLife
But the KoolKoal situation needs attention as well, so I'd like to hear other's thoughts on it. Other thoughts to come.
Niv - Been working to try to figure out Niv. Still don't get the focus on insisting that the RVS pursuit was "wrong" despite thinking that it yielded scum. Focus seems more keyed on defending his early stance than becoming natural. Also some language things that have stood out to me like the way he qualified to Hans that he wasn't suspecting him when he was talking about how the post on SNL was bad, not sure I entirely buy the explanation around the 97% town vs. "more suspicious" thing, the use of "classic" (can't fully articulate why that has seemed scummy to me but, eh)... but he has also been very active and hasn't backed away from engaging in the discussions and his responses have seemed convicted.
Hans - thought his barn of fulcrum's T/S list and initial flavor gaming stuff seemed town for Hans but his lack of participation and defense of SNL followed by his "I guess I see what you guys are talking about" type of post when the case built on SNL but without taking much action either way is suspicious. Seemed to mirror the post I quoted from Kool Koal where he initially defended SNL and then offered a soft admission that he might be guilty without doing anything about it. Read on him is more contingent on SNL's flip.
Gentrip - Mostly because I find it difficult to believe that if one of the reasons that Generic backed off of LnGr was to see if others would follow suit, that he wouldn't have been paying attention to fulcrum having done just that. A player like him I wouldn't expect to set a trap and then overlook someone who displayed the behavior that would have qualified into falling into that trap. Cantrip has also been doing quite a bit of defending of Niv (which is why I asked them about their read on him) and in his response to that he kind of fence sat that read while then later saying he was "still" town reading Niv. Have thought it a positive sign for them that they haven't been as coordinated with their reads as Generic was with Rhand, though, especially concerning HP who I'd think they'd want to be on the same page on.
DK - Initially felt like some of his pressure (specifically one that was calling out fulcrum's actions) felt hollow without follow through and that he was also keeping his options open on the LnGr/SNL discussions without taking firm lines either way (and didn't like his response to Niv about struggling early game as I've seen him take aggressive lines early game before). Has been making some good points more recently and following those up with pressure, though.
Varying levels of town reads on everyone else, with fulcrum and LnGr being the weakest of those, can share the whys on any of those if requested.
Mod Announcement: I apologise for not having updated prod checks and a vote count this morning. I woke up to a computer with a corrupted boot sector, and am finally just getting the machine operational. There will be an updated vote count tomorrow after I've finished restoring the machine.
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EDH UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
I'm not feeling the Niv case anymore. Like, if you guys want to see the rest of it, I can write it up, but ehhh.
I'm seriously tempted to just barn everything DC says until he's inevitably shot and I have to pick up the slack.
SNL never following up on his question to me and flipping his read of me rapidly is a thing I'd like explained. Not sure how many votes are on him right now, and I'm not putting anyone at L-1 after Porcelain Waltz, but consider my vote to be on him.
@SNL: you make a comment about Generic, I'm in 2 Game's with him currently, and have never seen him before. I'm already figuring out he has one of the most bizarre playstyles there is, that and cantrip Is a big fan of quote walls and long, thought out posts, from my memory of him, and him being in 2 games with me currently as well. you honestly think that they would be capable of synchronizing their playstyles in any situation, town or scum? the fact that you're saything that they're playing their own playstyle makes them townie is just so borked I don't understand. I have a town read on them too, for sure, but that reasoning, WTF? that and the points Dkings had on you, more the second one than the first. the first, well, you did just win a game as scum, yay you? but the second, with regards to hans, that just messes with my brain. I don't want to go into the meta levels that that's messed up. but really, even more so, can we stop with the flimsy meta arguments? when did 2 games suddenly become meta, they're not even the same alignment?
@Koal: so, why do people need to interact with you? why can't you interact with people? take some initiative and whatnot. that's just common sense, if everyone waited to be interacted with, we wouldn't have a functioning game, so you know, why don't you just function within the game and stuff? but you know what, but that question aside, Pretty sure DCIII nailed you for the time being. you've really been attempting to be useful instead of being useful almost every time you post. so, yah, that's not cool, Koal. see what I did there..........
@DCIII: the last time I talked about it (the RVS stuff), It was brought up to me again in fulcrum's case. it feels like that you're wanting me to change what I believe though. I belive you caught scum, through interactions between him, and a bad case on him. It's happened before, and it will happen again. someone gets presented with a case of any quality, and then they implode, the quality of the case aside. not much I can say about the language based tells that I haven't already said either.
@fulcrum: your last post. WTF.... rather than respond to my last post to you, where I rip you apart and call you a hypocrite, you'd rather just let DCIII play the game for you, and just drop everything? really? so, I guess you are just a hypocrite, good to know. like, I tore apart your case pretty aggressively, and you for that matter, but you come back to it with "ehhhh". if something falls through with SNL today, be it claim or whatnot, you're gonna have a problem. but cool, we have a D2 scum lynch too now though. cause there was so much more to my last attack on you, that you've not just completely ignored, but it's k, I already know you're a hypocrite, and you can die for it too.
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That being said, With the number of people that have expressed willingness to vote SNL ontop of the people already voting, I'm pretty sure we don't need to see the votecount, and it's claim time, SNL.
I think I'm coming around on Niv for not shying away from the debate with fulcrum after she stopped the case which, its unclear why and she barned my post which was town reading LnGr which would also be a change in read for her. She's also verging on Dagaen levels of buddying me, so that's pause for concern for me as well.
@Gen - Ok. I thought I picked up on something along those lines from you earlier but then your explanation was what we discussed and then Cantrip didn't seem to be aware with one of his questions to me.
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
Niv, man, your attacks are so completely unthreatening to me that I feel no need to respond to them. If you want me to defend myself, post something worth defending against.
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
So, I may not be going v/la after all on account of my car breaking down this weekend and my leaving it in another state. But I might still be leaving, so this post comes today despite being dead tired.
I apologize in advance if any of this doesn't make sense.
Quote from DCIII »
The below is the entirety of his content after what I mentioned above
the wording “It's often a good play for scum to only nod at the popular wagon while pushing another,” feels like a cop out
Explain in more depth please.
SNL having a poor grasp of the game-state is just standard play for him, regardless of his alignment.
I still find DCIII's reasoning on LnGrrrR to be on the weak side (except for where DC said LnGrrrR seemed to be trying to defuse the situation, I could see that).
The first sentence is a reaction to suspicion directed his way (more to come on this one as he uses this question to avoid a lot of the game later). The second sentence is a defense of SNL. The third sentence is telling of his mindset. He takes time to back up his stance that he found my reasoning weak but isn't doing anything with it, not asserting that I'm scum, not pressing me, etc. He adds a qualifier that he could see one part of the case - but doesn't following up on LnGr, either. It's a vacuous statement written with the mentality of explaining his initial stance but with no scum hunting purpose. The whole point of that point is to hedge. "I still think I was right, but I can also see what he was talking about here." No initiative, not doing anything with it, not making any declarative statements on what he thinks it means about either of our alignment.
But my question to fulcrum was more than that. That was one of fulcrums worst posts, but touching on anything else would be construed as "defending other players" and I got the sense that fulcrum's point about me (and the rest of the post) was nothing but smoke and mirrors, so I asked for more.
I don't want to rush to lynch SNL over small things without a proven scum mindset. It's proven to be a waste of time to jump at his every post.
The last line was fulfilling a promise from my earlier post, that you didn't quote despite the fact that it's relavant, where I said I would give my opinion of the LnGrrrR wagon after he had gotten to respond. When he had, I found he'd agreed with most of my thoughts on your case, so I kept my follow-up simple.
Normally, I try not to quote things out of context, but damn if this doesn't like something a pissed off scum would say to a scummate who's going down.
Meanwhile, you ignored questions from both myself and DCIII.
Now is taking on to and backing up one of my questions in his next post - but also isn't doing anything with it, isn't commenting on any of the rest of the goings on in the game. There are MANY other things to interact with or pressure or take stances on at this point in the game but KoolKoal's focus is on a point the cast suspicion on him, basically using an unanswered question as a way to ignore everything else. Very active lurking in trying to appear to be doing something but not really doing much of anything in the larger context.
I'm willing to ignore parts of the thread that I view as less important when I think I've got scum on the hook trying to create confusion and slip away.
Still waiting on Fulcrum showing up and answering my question.
/barn everyone asking for more info on SNL's list. I had resolved to give him a pass until later in the game because it's impossible for him to look townie, but this is too much inconsistency to ignore.
Next post. Still doing almost nothing regarding the game but waiting for fulcrum - throws a /barn on the wagon on SNL without adding much other reasoning but still doesn't vote (if KoolKoal is scum then I think it looks worse for SNL, btw). Again, active lurking waiting on the question, adding non-committal support to a popular opinion.
Why the hell should I ask for more information and vote at the same time? I'm clearly not convinced SNL is scum, so therefore when I pay attention to him while he's a wagon without voting for him, it makes me scummy? There's no logic behind this.
This is the second time in a row (in between huge gaps of inactivity, I might add) that you've ignored everything going on in thread, including two questions pointed directly at you, only to focus on Niv with a bunch points, most of which don't actually make him scum, the rest of which aren't real points. You also ignored Niv's response to your awful "I don't normally quote out of context, but..." so you could continue pressuring him as if you'd done nothing wrong.
Then this comes after fulcrum posts again. Firstly, this is hypocritical considering that all of the posts I just quoted are all of KoolKoal's content for 100 posts and he's largely ignored everything happening in the game except for waiting on this fulcrum response. He's the one ignoring everything going on in the thread and she'd posted an entire T/S list at this point. His /barn on the pressure on SNL has seemed to be forgotten.
hypocrisy? I hadn't ignored multiple requests sent my direction during my inactivity. And my /barn on SNL pressure would look rather odd repeated when SNL hadn't even shown up and ignored the pressure on him like fulcrum did.
Quote from DC »
This post is a cop out.
1. Get over it.
2. You reference my post that you left out here, despite saying earlier that you got all of them.
So, are we doing a SNL bandwagon? I'd be more than happy to give the last two votes if we get five on him.
I think you should ask for permission before placing your votes if the player you're voting is anywhere near the lynch threshold... We don't want to end the day early.
These are the kinds of posts that are designed to look helpful and townie but again add nothing from a scum hunting perspective and don't advance the game in any way. It would be one thing if a post like this was tacked onto another one with another purpose or if it was a stand alone post from an active player who had been scum hunting, but from KoolKoal, it just looks like an attempt to look busy/helpful since Niv called him out on his activity.
So you'd prefer I just sit back and let the new player with the volatile power of double-voting plan on quick-lynching someone out of ignorance simply because I didn't have something else to add?
LOL, the bias is strong with this case.
So that's the case on KoolKoal - bad logic early, mostly just focused on interactions with himself (self-centric focus not used for scum hunting purposes is also indicative of scum as they're more trying not to get caught than figure anything else out), extreme active lurking sense his opening, avoiding plenty of relevant game discussion.
1. The fact that the logic went over your head doesn't make it bad.
2. Coincidentally, two of my first three posts that you didn't quote actually run directly counter to your argument that I'm only interested in defending myself and didn't participate in scum hunting.
@Hookerpunch: Why are you posting nothing but active-lurking quality posts? Why are you still voting for yourself?
So, there's another point where you were less than honest to make your case look better.
Extreme active-lurking is a color word to make me look worse, and I disagree with it in any case.
And please tell me what relevant game discussion I've hurt the town by not taking part in.
So, you continue to ignore me.
I basically said you're full of crap in post 188, and you pretend it never happened.
@Koal: so, why do people need to interact with you? why can't you interact with people? take some initiative and whatnot. that's just common sense, if everyone waited to be interacted with, we wouldn't have a functioning game, so you know, why don't you just function within the game and stuff? but you know what, but that question aside, Pretty sure DCIII nailed you for the time being. you've really been attempting to be useful instead of being useful almost every time you post. so, yah, that's not cool, Koal. see what I did there..........
I never said anyone had to interact with me, I said it would be easier for me to post a lot early in the game if more people did. I have interacted with people, though not a whole ton. I don't waste time with questions I don't think will produce results.
Anyway, read my response to DC. The case isn't as good as you give it credit for.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
I said you talked about cccccc808 as an aside because you put LnGrrrR as a higher priority than him, despite that you had put more solid questions about cccccc808 than LnGrrrR into the thread. Assumptions about mindset are much less solid than the flailing cccccc808 was doing, yet you put LnGrrrR ahead of him, even claiming he is the sure lynch over it.
It's often a good play for scum to only nod at the popular wagon while pushing another. If the popular wagon is scum, you pull attention from the wagon, but still have left an avenue open for later bussing if the wagon continues. If they're town, and get mislynched, you didn't even truly participate on their wagon.
The reason I don't attach Niv to this is because the reason I find the move scummy doesn't apply to him, as he wasn't a popular wagon.
You explained how it would be a good play for a scum!DC to do that, ignoring that it's a also a good move for town!DC who believes LnGrrR to be scum to do. The second paragraph is the most egregious, because of your choice of pronouns. You're talking about a hypothetical scum player instead of DC, and you know it.
No, it would not have been a good play for townDC to focus on a player who's case is based entirely on creative interpretation of his mindset, rather than concrete things like cccccc808 was posting.
You have yet to prove my reasoning in the "egregious" second paragraph wrong, you just claim "scum often do this" with no reasoning as to why scum do it, or why it might be an reliable tell or anything. Just the flat statement as if you're right, and an offer to link 1 game to prove it. And now you try to brush off your previous mistakes in reasoning, such as claiming something is a tell with only 1 piece of evidence, by re-starting the whole discussion on your own terms rather than defending yourself.
You still haven't explained how any of this is a cop-out either.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Because they do it? I suspect it has to do with not being fully immersed in a scum hunting mindset.
The cop out part refers to your language choice in describing the actions of a generic scum instead of DC's actions.
You continue to blatantly ignore half of my points against you. I'll stop holding my breath on you explaining why my original reasoning is bad then, since you are just going to continue ignoring that request.
And you still have no reasoning, you have nothing but suspicion as to the cause, which is basically "bad scum player."
Please explain how saying DCs actions are scummy by saying why its a beneficial scum move (and a better move as scum that town even) is a cop out.
I could see you saying you disagree, but to throw mud like this over it isn't townie.
If SNL doesn't respond to the numerous answers, willing to hammer.
Koal, I asked you that question because I was curious how you would answer it. Seemed pretty guarded. I asked a question like that of Cantrip in RTR, but disregarded the weird vibes I got from the answer.
Cantrip, when you get the chance, please answer that question about possible bussing between Fulcrum/Niv.
Because they do it? I suspect it has to do with not being fully immersed in a scum hunting mindset.
The cop out part refers to your language choice in describing the actions of a generic scum instead of DC's actions.
You continue to blatantly ignore half of my points against you. I'll stop holding my breath on you explaining why my original reasoning is bad then, since you are just going to continue ignoring that request.
And you still have no reasoning, you have nothing but suspicion as to the cause, which is basically "bad scum player."
Please explain how saying DCs actions are scummy by saying why its a beneficial scum move (and a better move as scum that town even) is a cop out.
I could see you saying you disagree, but to throw mud like this over it isn't townie.
KoolKoal: Are you aware that another scumtell is caring too much about points against you? (Hint hint)
Are you aware that my point is that you're scum? Nothing in my language is self-focused, it's all about proving you're full of it.
Half the points is stretching it. I ignored the first point because it was entirely subject and really kind of ridiculous. Scum!DC's best interests are too look town. Anything else is just a derivation of you consider to be looking town. And what it comes down to it, all sign of scum come from mindset tells.
There was post #188 where you responded to fulcrum's response to you (there was also post #199 where you said you'd go out on leave, and there was also the post where you responded to LnGr's question that I didn't include). I said entirety at the beginning of the post because I'd planned on just quoting everything you posted after those first three posts - then later decided not to bother with those three because they didn't factor into the point I was making either way.
You're trying to claim I was being less than honest with my approach to your quotes by saying that I didn't quote #188 (Think about that logic, did you think I was just hoping you'd forgotten that you'd posted it? Also, in what way do you think that post is relevant to the points I was making?) and also by saying that I ignored your first three posts of the game. But I said that after your first three posts of the game you started to actively lurk (your first three posts I said I had initially thought you were using bad logic at the time but seem worse now). You even edited out the part of my post that you quoted where I mentioned the previous posts.
My point on the active lurking was that you added very little content to the game on your own outside of waiting on fulcrum to respond to you and then responding to her. Then I also discussed your response to Niv and the post to 6Cs which were other posts that I thought were worth calling out - but you're attempting to say "well look, before that I did things" and "you didn't capture all of my posts" as reasons that that point shouldn't be considered when those posts aren't what I was talking about. Following up on fulcrum's response to you doesn't have anything to do with your avoiding most relevant game discussion when you were waiting for her to respond. Also, your asking HP one question early on doesn’t show anything. You asked the question and didn’t do anything with it and I haven’t seen you express any opinions on HP. You had basically expressed concrete opinions on two players, 6Cs and fulcrum - and you had loosely insinuated suspicion of me but it was ambiguous where you still stood prior to your response to my case. I had thought that your comment about SNL having too many inconsistencies to ignore was expressing concrete suspicion of him (which is why I questioned the lack of a vote) - but you're saying that the point of that comment was to pile on that he needed to say more about his reads. Which, again, is a fluff post because you're not taking a stance either way and you're just reiterating something that many other players were already calling for.
To some of your other points (let me know if you’re unclear which point I’m referencing on any of these):
I get why you asked the question to fulcrum, the point is that after that you basically lurked while waiting for her to respond. I don’t believe that you so thought you had fulcrum on the hook by asking her to elaborate more on her copping out point that you mostly ignored everything else. That was an initial probing question and it's not like you were in a long back and forth with her that was requiring a lot of your time.
To another point - there weren't any votes on SNL when you posted your initial thoughts on him, so why would you have been worried about rushing to lynch SNL over small things? The leading wagon was on LnGr and there were no more than three votes on any one player.
You followed up on your thoughts on the LnGr case from when you said you would earlier (you say that I didn’t quote that post despite it being relevant, but what do you think that post shows?) but your response took no line or direction in either way. You said that you thought my case was weak except for one part of it - but there was no clarification what that meant. Did you think I was scum? You didn't question me further or indicate as much if so. You said you could see the one point I was making about LnGr but didn't give any indication as to what that made you think of him. There was no direction with that post other than to have followed up on the case when you said you would. You gave an opinion on the case itself, but there was nothing along the lines of what it made you think about the players involved and no further effort to flesh out any indecision.
You say that you weren’t hurting Town discussion by not participating – but the point isn’t that discussion was hurt –the point is that there were plenty of other things going on in the game that you ignored or referenced without committing a stance to, posting multiple times that you were waiting for fulcrum with little other meaningful content while there was a lot going on.
Lastly, to touch on the point that resulted in the “cop out” discussion with fulcrum. Aside from that “cop out” part of the discussion (which I agree with because the way you phrased it wasn’t taking ownership of the read and, even later with the post I quoted where you gave thoughts on the LnGr case still being weak – you didn’t offer any opinions one way or another after that), the logic was bad and didn’t go over my head. You were saying that my pressing a mindset case on LnGr when, in your opinion, there was more concrete info to go on with 6Cs is weak.
Firstly, mindset is one of the best ways to catch people in this game, so dismissing that is bad. But you didn’t go into any specifics about why my case on LnGr was weak or pressure me about why I took those angles if you disgreed with the logic. It was clear that LnGr was my top scum read but that I also had suspicions of 6Cs (and I was initiating interaction with him to try to figure out more about his thought process, unlike what you were doing with me). I was also questioning Niv because I had suspicions of him, trying to figure out specifically what was going on with him. Your stance was, literally, that because you thought that 6C’s case had more to it, that I was scummy for not dropping my vote on LnGr and voting 6Cs. By that logic, anyone suspecting two people who puts more pressure on one over the other could be making what you consider a good scum play. By voting 6Cs and acting indignant that there weren’t more votes on him while saying as an aside that you thought what I did could be good scum play, you could just as well have been doing the same thing you accused me of doing, and you didn't make any follow up to try to understand what I was doing more or pressure me.
Furthermore, that read of yours hasn’t evolved over the game. Presumably you have a more favorable read on 6Cs now that you’ve unvoted him after hearing his claim. So, before, you were scum reading him and you thought it good scum play that I’d have given a nod to his wagon while focusing on LnGr… but now that you think 6Cs is likely Town, that hasn’t seemed to impact your read on what I was doing at all. Does it still make sense that I would have done that if 6Cs was Town considering that you thought there was much more reason to be on his wagon at the time? There are many different answers that you could give to that question but my point is not concerned with the answer, it's that you don’t seem to be considering it one way or another. Your opinion on your read of 6Cs changed, but you haven't re-evaluated your opinion of that situation.
Tl:Dr - I don't like KK's response. I don't find his reasons for active lurking outside of his fulcrum stance believable, I think he was avoiding relevant in-game discussion and avoiding taking clear stances on many things while doing so, his read on an earlier game situation hasn't taken into account new game factors, and he's trying to play up things that he thinks are inconsistent to discredit the case when they aren't relevant to the point.
------
Also, two more things - look at what he said to Niv "the case (on him) isn't as good as you think it is." That's an odd way for Town to phrase that. In his response to me he says that my case isn't honest, insinuating that it's scummy - so I'd expect him to tell Niv that the case is bad, or wrong, or scummy, or dishonest, etc., and then start pressing me - but instead he says it isn't as good as Niv thinks it is with a focus on poking holes in the case rather than also driving suspicion on me despite thinking that my motives are from a scum mindset - which is just like earlier with the "cop out" point or the point about him summarizing his thoughts on the LnGr case. If he really thought that I was scum then I'd expect him to be much more assertive about pushing that, both throughout the game so far and especially now.
KK says that nothing about his language is self-focused but his reaction about why he was ignoring thread content was because other people weren't interacting with him. Town's goal is to investigate and figure out who scum are, not wait to be interacted with. The mindset that he endorsed is what I would expect from someone trying not to get caught.
@Gen - I agreed with most of your read on fulcrum - specifically the reason I was town reading her early was her #110 and how her enthusiasm around those reads felt genuine and they were unsolicited. I also remember playing WWII with her aas scum and she played much more on the periphery with questions and then basically had a bus back and forth with her partner. After that, she was back on the periphery with questions again. I feel like she's different here and committing to more reads without her hand being forced and is also playing more similarly to Day 1 of Winterfell.
The things that have given me pause are how enthusiastically she's straight backed what I'm saying, which is giving me flashbacks of Dag, some of her more recent interactions with Niv, and then the timing of when she left LnGr to join the Niv wagon - but I can see what you're saying about what lead to that part. I have her as a Town lean as well.
Tl:Dr - I don't like KK's response. I don't find his reasons for active lurking outside of his fulcrum stance believable, I think he was avoiding relevant in-game discussion and avoiding taking clear stances on many things while doing so, his read on an earlier game situation hasn't taken into account new game factors, and he's trying to play up things that he thinks are inconsistent to discredit the case when they aren't relevant to the point.
FWIW, I thought the exact same things about KK in RTR. Especially on D1, it seemed like he was pulling a Megiddo from Xymande and focusing on general theory talk rather than actually scumhunting, but he flipped town there.
Pretty sure SNL's going to the gallows today. Koal's V/La for the rest of the week, which is really inconvenient, given the current state of questioning. I really see no reason to prolong the day too long, otherwise we'll be waiting all week for Koal.
FWIW, I thought the exact same things about KK in RTR. Especially on D1, it seemed like he was pulling a Megiddo from Xymande and focusing on general theory talk rather than actually scumhunting, but he flipped town there.
If SNL doesn't actually answer questions, I am voting him tomorrow.
DC3, let's say, hypothetically, that tomorrow I showed up mod-confirmed town, and Fulcrum and Niv are still both alive. Does that change your read on either of them?
Kosa, what are your thoughts on the current game state?
HookerPunch: Sorry to hear that. Do you need any help with the games you're modding?
-----------------------------------------------
As much as I'd like to Day 1 lynch SNL after Porcelain Waltz, this lynch is bad and I feel bad for having been on it.
Let's look at the wagon instead:
SelesnyaNewLife: Miss_Lynch, dkingsland967, Niv, DCIII, [fulcrum], C6
Let's see, SNL, Miss_Lynch, DCIII, C6 and I are town. Dkings is kind of townish (?). Oh hi there Niv.
I just realized I have a townish reads on everyone except Niv, Koolkoal and LnGrrR. Wat do. Oh, I know.
Vote Niv
SNL: If you want the lynch to go away, you might just want to start answering the questions, hmm.
Actually, LnGrrrR and KoolKoal both pushing me as scum is kind of unlikely. Let's say KoolKoal is the scum of the pair. That dkings or Kosa for the third slot. Hrmm.
I towncleared hans because I played scum with him in [Llamas with Hats] and correctly nightkilled him as a power role in [Porcelain Waltz]. I'm 100% certain he's vanilla town in this game.
What specifically in this game caused you to townclear me--with such certainty--as opposed to Llamas with Hats?
I like DC, but I disagree with some of the points that he made in his case on KK.
I'm starting to renege on my initial scum read on Hookerpunch--however, I m not exactly sure if this is because I am finding slight traces of townie merit in his more recent posts, or if my read on him is simply getting tainted by the fact that I find many of his posts hilarious.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
@LnGr - I don't think that does, no. I have you as a town lean in my lense on the game right now.
@fulcrum - why do you think the wagon on SNL is bad? His most recent post didn't address the contradiction in is stance on your /barn play from earlier and his answer to LnGr's question avoided most of the reasons for pressure against him. Seemed like a weird question to pick to answer if he lost a much bigger post. Whole post felt resigned, to me. If you want to rally a Niv vote, I'd like to see the rest of your case.
aside: I think #247 is a town fulcrum post
@Hans - what points did you disagree with in my KK case?
@kosa: this game aside, this new software is like the devil. that being said, I'm going to assume you've read my response to your vote on me a couple pages back, but you'd rather call people drunk for disagreeing with you than retype what you've lost? like, I've lost essays before too, but I don't normally go ahead and act like I posted what I lost, and move on, unless of course you're not planning on actually responding back to me, then I still don't get where this is going. however if you're just going to attack anyone that disagrees with you, I'm pretty sure you're not going to be capable of even talking to at this point.
At the time I lost pretty much a whole hour of quoting and typing (which for me is A LOT), so I wasn't exactly in the mood for doing it all over again. I already hate quotewalling, and taking the time to do it only for Curse to **** me up made me tilt a bit.
Also, you continue to use smearing words whenever you refer to my actions: "attack anyone that disagrees with me". There were people whose views on you were radically different than mine and I wanted to know their reasons, because I wasn't seeing how you could possibly be town and I'm still not seeing it.
First, case on KoolKoal: Basically actively lurked for most of the game. The first post he made gave me an initial town reaction as it seemed zealous about a read on 6Cs and then raised a question about my motives, a player who most were town reading at the time. But, 6Cs would have been hard not to suspect early on with his play and aggressively pressing there makes sense. Then he took a stance on me that was basically, "why are you pressuring LnGr and pressuring 6Cs as an aside?" which I thought was just poor logic at the time because I was pressuring both, but I wasn't going to move my vote from LnGr to 6Cs, with the read I had on LnGr. But since that, KoolKoal really stopped doing much of anything of worth proactively. His participation has almost entirely been self-centric, just responding to anything hinting at suspecting him since then, and mostly avoiding active discussions going on in game.
I'm not sold on this regarding scum!KK. Not only I'm not seeing scum intent in his posts, but I also remember Kool behaving pretty much like this in Eeveelution and catching the same flak for it (granted, it's been a year and a half but still).
In my opinion being defensive and self-centric is more of a playstyle thing than necessarily a scum trait. I, for example, tend to produce much more in games where I'm being focused than in games where I'm widely regarded as town, because having to defend myself makes me more invested in such games.
I dislike both fulcrum and HP, but the problem I'm having is that I'm not sure how much of it is behavior and how much of it is my dislike of their playstyles.
KK is iffy. I'm not thinking too much about him at the moment because the things that have seemed off so far are reminiscent of his early play in RTR. One solid point you presented that does resonate with me, though, is that his peripheral reads don't seem to adapt at all when his read of a particular player changes, even when linked together.
My paranoia is also rising a bit about Hans, as he is generally more lurky as scum. He has also promised to provide content and catch-up that hasn't come.
I am considering C808 confirmed town, and I have strong town reads on you, the hydra and Niv. I'm not interested in Kosa (strong Pleasantville vibes) or LnG (frustration felt genuine) right now.
@Hans - what points did you disagree with in my KK case?
One of the points that you emphasized heavily against KoolKoal is that he's been actively lurking. I don't think that this is inherently indicative of scum alignment.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
Hmm.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
alright, I'll ask before execution.
CHECK OUT MY TRIBAL CUSTOM SET KREVAN
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/creativity/custom-card-creation/custom-set-creation-and/530273-krevan-the-first-set-in-a-tribal-block
Will consolidate my overall thoughts tonight or tomorrow morning. Also still waiting on SNL's response but, spoiler alert, I feel good about this vote.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
These two lines are making my skin crawl. This is damn-near the same thing Rhand did in Marvel Madness 2 after Hayate ended and I called him out for it there. Providing scum games with no prompting is incredibly self-aware.
KoolKoal, why do you think people are suspecting you lately? Assuming you read this.
@Hookerpunch, asking again, when will you start being able to see those signs of scum you were mentioning?
For those granting SNL a "soul bound cloak of scumminess", did you ever answer the question of how you can tell scum!SNL vs town!SNL?
SNL, would you say there are differences in your town/scum game? Don't need meta, just an honest answer of your opinion.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
And to be clear, I'm not going V/LA til Monday. Hopefully DC will share his case for me to respond to before then.
First, case on KoolKoal: Basically actively lurked for most of the game. The first post he made gave me an initial town reaction as it seemed zealous about a read on 6Cs and then raised a question about my motives, a player who most were town reading at the time. But, 6Cs would have been hard not to suspect early on with his play and aggressively pressing there makes sense. Then he took a stance on me that was basically, "why are you pressuring LnGr and pressuring 6Cs as an aside?" which I thought was just poor logic at the time because I was pressuring both, but I wasn't going to move my vote from LnGr to 6Cs, with the read I had on LnGr. But since that, KoolKoal really stopped doing much of anything of worth proactively. His participation has almost entirely been self-centric, just responding to anything hinting at suspecting him since then, and mostly avoiding active discussions going on in game.
The below is the entirety of his content after what I mentioned above (and those were three posts):
The first sentence is a reaction to suspicion directed his way (more to come on this one as he uses this question to avoid a lot of the game later). The second sentence is a defense of SNL. The third sentence is telling of his mindset. He takes time to back up his stance that he found my reasoning weak but isn't doing anything with it, not asserting that I'm scum, not pressing me, etc. He adds a qualifier that he could see one part of the case - but doesn't following up on LnGr, either. It's a vacuous statement written with the mentality of explaining his initial stance but with no scum hunting purpose. The whole point of that point is to hedge. "I still think I was right, but I can also see what he was talking about here." No initiative, not doing anything with it, not making any declarative statements on what he thinks it means about either of our alignment.
Now is taking on to and backing up one of my questions in his next post - but also isn't doing anything with it, isn't commenting on any of the rest of the goings on in the game. There are MANY other things to interact with or pressure or take stances on at this point in the game but KoolKoal's focus is on a point the cast suspicion on him, basically using an unanswered question as a way to ignore everything else. Very active lurking in trying to appear to be doing something but not really doing much of anything in the larger context.
Next post. Still doing almost nothing regarding the game but waiting for fulcrum - throws a /barn on the wagon on SNL without adding much other reasoning but still doesn't vote (if KoolKoal is scum then I think it looks worse for SNL, btw). Again, active lurking waiting on the question, adding non-committal support to a popular opinion.
Then this comes after fulcrum posts again. Firstly, this is hypocritical considering that all of the posts I just quoted are all of KoolKoal's content for 100 posts and he's largely ignored everything happening in the game except for waiting on this fulcrum response. He's the one ignoring everything going on in the thread and she'd posted an entire T/S list at this point. His /barn on the pressure on SNL has seemed to be forgotten.
This post is a cop out.
These are the kinds of posts that are designed to look helpful and townie but again add nothing from a scum hunting perspective and don't advance the game in any way. It would be one thing if a post like this was tacked onto another one with another purpose or if it was a stand alone post from an active player who had been scum hunting, but from KoolKoal, it just looks like an attempt to look busy/helpful since Niv called him out on his activity.
So that's the case on KoolKoal - bad logic early, mostly just focused on interactions with himself (self-centric focus not used for scum hunting purposes is also indicative of scum as they're more trying not to get caught than figure anything else out), extreme active lurking sense his opening, avoiding plenty of relevant game discussion.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for SNL - I had been town reading SNL earlier because it seemed to me that he was playing without fear and I thought that the point on him regarding the vote on 6Cs after his double vote was bad and seemed to have an agenda. I don't see a scum motivation for realizing that a player's intention was to double vote, then voting that player anyway while ignoring that aspect of their play. All that's going to do is get added scrutiny on you for voting the player who just double voted, which doesn't seem very scum motivated.
But this:
directly contradicts this:
He thought it was scummy when LnGr called it out, but is now saying that he thought it was town from his play in Waltz.
Unvote: Vote: SelesnyaNewLife
But the KoolKoal situation needs attention as well, so I'd like to hear other's thoughts on it. Other thoughts to come.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Niv - Been working to try to figure out Niv. Still don't get the focus on insisting that the RVS pursuit was "wrong" despite thinking that it yielded scum. Focus seems more keyed on defending his early stance than becoming natural. Also some language things that have stood out to me like the way he qualified to Hans that he wasn't suspecting him when he was talking about how the post on SNL was bad, not sure I entirely buy the explanation around the 97% town vs. "more suspicious" thing, the use of "classic" (can't fully articulate why that has seemed scummy to me but, eh)... but he has also been very active and hasn't backed away from engaging in the discussions and his responses have seemed convicted.
Hans - thought his barn of fulcrum's T/S list and initial flavor gaming stuff seemed town for Hans but his lack of participation and defense of SNL followed by his "I guess I see what you guys are talking about" type of post when the case built on SNL but without taking much action either way is suspicious. Seemed to mirror the post I quoted from Kool Koal where he initially defended SNL and then offered a soft admission that he might be guilty without doing anything about it. Read on him is more contingent on SNL's flip.
Gentrip - Mostly because I find it difficult to believe that if one of the reasons that Generic backed off of LnGr was to see if others would follow suit, that he wouldn't have been paying attention to fulcrum having done just that. A player like him I wouldn't expect to set a trap and then overlook someone who displayed the behavior that would have qualified into falling into that trap. Cantrip has also been doing quite a bit of defending of Niv (which is why I asked them about their read on him) and in his response to that he kind of fence sat that read while then later saying he was "still" town reading Niv. Have thought it a positive sign for them that they haven't been as coordinated with their reads as Generic was with Rhand, though, especially concerning HP who I'd think they'd want to be on the same page on.
DK - Initially felt like some of his pressure (specifically one that was calling out fulcrum's actions) felt hollow without follow through and that he was also keeping his options open on the LnGr/SNL discussions without taking firm lines either way (and didn't like his response to Niv about struggling early game as I've seen him take aggressive lines early game before). Has been making some good points more recently and following those up with pressure, though.
Varying levels of town reads on everyone else, with fulcrum and LnGr being the weakest of those, can share the whys on any of those if requested.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
I'm seriously tempted to just barn everything DC says until he's inevitably shot and I have to pick up the slack.
SNL never following up on his question to me and flipping his read of me rapidly is a thing I'd like explained. Not sure how many votes are on him right now, and I'm not putting anyone at L-1 after Porcelain Waltz, but consider my vote to be on him.
@Koal: so, why do people need to interact with you? why can't you interact with people? take some initiative and whatnot. that's just common sense, if everyone waited to be interacted with, we wouldn't have a functioning game, so you know, why don't you just function within the game and stuff? but you know what, but that question aside, Pretty sure DCIII nailed you for the time being. you've really been attempting to be useful instead of being useful almost every time you post. so, yah, that's not cool, Koal. see what I did there..........
@DCIII: the last time I talked about it (the RVS stuff), It was brought up to me again in fulcrum's case. it feels like that you're wanting me to change what I believe though. I belive you caught scum, through interactions between him, and a bad case on him. It's happened before, and it will happen again. someone gets presented with a case of any quality, and then they implode, the quality of the case aside. not much I can say about the language based tells that I haven't already said either.
@fulcrum: your last post. WTF.... rather than respond to my last post to you, where I rip you apart and call you a hypocrite, you'd rather just let DCIII play the game for you, and just drop everything? really? so, I guess you are just a hypocrite, good to know. like, I tore apart your case pretty aggressively, and you for that matter, but you come back to it with "ehhhh". if something falls through with SNL today, be it claim or whatnot, you're gonna have a problem. but cool, we have a D2 scum lynch too now though. cause there was so much more to my last attack on you, that you've not just completely ignored, but it's k, I already know you're a hypocrite, and you can die for it too.
-------------
That being said, With the number of people that have expressed willingness to vote SNL ontop of the people already voting, I'm pretty sure we don't need to see the votecount, and it's claim time, SNL.
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
@Gen - Ok. I thought I picked up on something along those lines from you earlier but then your explanation was what we discussed and then Cantrip didn't seem to be aware with one of his questions to me.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Not Voting: Hans
A general reminder that your deadline is in NINE days.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
Vote SNL
Claim time, bro.
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
So, I may not be going v/la after all on account of my car breaking down this weekend and my leaving it in another state. But I might still be leaving, so this post comes today despite being dead tired.
I apologize in advance if any of this doesn't make sense.
But my question to fulcrum was more than that. That was one of fulcrums worst posts, but touching on anything else would be construed as "defending other players" and I got the sense that fulcrum's point about me (and the rest of the post) was nothing but smoke and mirrors, so I asked for more.
I don't want to rush to lynch SNL over small things without a proven scum mindset. It's proven to be a waste of time to jump at his every post.
The last line was fulfilling a promise from my earlier post, that you didn't quote despite the fact that it's relavant, where I said I would give my opinion of the LnGrrrR wagon after he had gotten to respond. When he had, I found he'd agreed with most of my thoughts on your case, so I kept my follow-up simple.
I'm willing to ignore parts of the thread that I view as less important when I think I've got scum on the hook trying to create confusion and slip away.
Why the hell should I ask for more information and vote at the same time? I'm clearly not convinced SNL is scum, so therefore when I pay attention to him while he's a wagon without voting for him, it makes me scummy? There's no logic behind this.
hypocrisy? I hadn't ignored multiple requests sent my direction during my inactivity. And my /barn on SNL pressure would look rather odd repeated when SNL hadn't even shown up and ignored the pressure on him like fulcrum did.
1. Get over it.
2. You reference my post that you left out here, despite saying earlier that you got all of them.
So you'd prefer I just sit back and let the new player with the volatile power of double-voting plan on quick-lynching someone out of ignorance simply because I didn't have something else to add?
LOL, the bias is strong with this case.
1. The fact that the logic went over your head doesn't make it bad.
2. Coincidentally, two of my first three posts that you didn't quote actually run directly counter to your argument that I'm only interested in defending myself and didn't participate in scum hunting.
So, there's another point where you were less than honest to make your case look better.
Extreme active-lurking is a color word to make me look worse, and I disagree with it in any case.
And please tell me what relevant game discussion I've hurt the town by not taking part in.
I basically said you're full of crap in post 188, and you pretend it never happened.
Anyway, read my response to DC. The case isn't as good as you give it credit for.
ill just do one
unvote: vote SNL
CHECK OUT MY TRIBAL CUSTOM SET KREVAN
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/creativity/custom-card-creation/custom-set-creation-and/530273-krevan-the-first-set-in-a-tribal-block
C6: You don't put people at L-1 on this site before a claim.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
You explained how it would be a good play for a scum!DC to do that, ignoring that it's a also a good move for town!DC who believes LnGrrR to be scum to do. The second paragraph is the most egregious, because of your choice of pronouns. You're talking about a hypothetical scum player instead of DC, and you know it.
You have yet to prove my reasoning in the "egregious" second paragraph wrong, you just claim "scum often do this" with no reasoning as to why scum do it, or why it might be an reliable tell or anything. Just the flat statement as if you're right, and an offer to link 1 game to prove it. And now you try to brush off your previous mistakes in reasoning, such as claiming something is a tell with only 1 piece of evidence, by re-starting the whole discussion on your own terms rather than defending yourself.
You still haven't explained how any of this is a cop-out either.
The cop out part refers to your language choice in describing the actions of a generic scum instead of DC's actions.
And you still have no reasoning, you have nothing but suspicion as to the cause, which is basically "bad scum player."
Please explain how saying DCs actions are scummy by saying why its a beneficial scum move (and a better move as scum that town even) is a cop out.
I could see you saying you disagree, but to throw mud like this over it isn't townie.
Are you aware that my point is that you're scum? Nothing in my language is self-focused, it's all about proving you're full of it.
Koal, I asked you that question because I was curious how you would answer it. Seemed pretty guarded. I asked a question like that of Cantrip in RTR, but disregarded the weird vibes I got from the answer.
Cantrip, when you get the chance, please answer that question about possible bussing between Fulcrum/Niv.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Half the points is stretching it. I ignored the first point because it was entirely subject and really kind of ridiculous. Scum!DC's best interests are too look town. Anything else is just a derivation of you consider to be looking town. And what it comes down to it, all sign of scum come from mindset tells.
KoolKoal –
There was post #188 where you responded to fulcrum's response to you (there was also post #199 where you said you'd go out on leave, and there was also the post where you responded to LnGr's question that I didn't include). I said entirety at the beginning of the post because I'd planned on just quoting everything you posted after those first three posts - then later decided not to bother with those three because they didn't factor into the point I was making either way.
You're trying to claim I was being less than honest with my approach to your quotes by saying that I didn't quote #188 (Think about that logic, did you think I was just hoping you'd forgotten that you'd posted it? Also, in what way do you think that post is relevant to the points I was making?) and also by saying that I ignored your first three posts of the game. But I said that after your first three posts of the game you started to actively lurk (your first three posts I said I had initially thought you were using bad logic at the time but seem worse now). You even edited out the part of my post that you quoted where I mentioned the previous posts.
My point on the active lurking was that you added very little content to the game on your own outside of waiting on fulcrum to respond to you and then responding to her. Then I also discussed your response to Niv and the post to 6Cs which were other posts that I thought were worth calling out - but you're attempting to say "well look, before that I did things" and "you didn't capture all of my posts" as reasons that that point shouldn't be considered when those posts aren't what I was talking about. Following up on fulcrum's response to you doesn't have anything to do with your avoiding most relevant game discussion when you were waiting for her to respond. Also, your asking HP one question early on doesn’t show anything. You asked the question and didn’t do anything with it and I haven’t seen you express any opinions on HP. You had basically expressed concrete opinions on two players, 6Cs and fulcrum - and you had loosely insinuated suspicion of me but it was ambiguous where you still stood prior to your response to my case. I had thought that your comment about SNL having too many inconsistencies to ignore was expressing concrete suspicion of him (which is why I questioned the lack of a vote) - but you're saying that the point of that comment was to pile on that he needed to say more about his reads. Which, again, is a fluff post because you're not taking a stance either way and you're just reiterating something that many other players were already calling for.
To some of your other points (let me know if you’re unclear which point I’m referencing on any of these):
I get why you asked the question to fulcrum, the point is that after that you basically lurked while waiting for her to respond. I don’t believe that you so thought you had fulcrum on the hook by asking her to elaborate more on her copping out point that you mostly ignored everything else. That was an initial probing question and it's not like you were in a long back and forth with her that was requiring a lot of your time.
To another point - there weren't any votes on SNL when you posted your initial thoughts on him, so why would you have been worried about rushing to lynch SNL over small things? The leading wagon was on LnGr and there were no more than three votes on any one player.
You followed up on your thoughts on the LnGr case from when you said you would earlier (you say that I didn’t quote that post despite it being relevant, but what do you think that post shows?) but your response took no line or direction in either way. You said that you thought my case was weak except for one part of it - but there was no clarification what that meant. Did you think I was scum? You didn't question me further or indicate as much if so. You said you could see the one point I was making about LnGr but didn't give any indication as to what that made you think of him. There was no direction with that post other than to have followed up on the case when you said you would. You gave an opinion on the case itself, but there was nothing along the lines of what it made you think about the players involved and no further effort to flesh out any indecision.
You say that you weren’t hurting Town discussion by not participating – but the point isn’t that discussion was hurt –the point is that there were plenty of other things going on in the game that you ignored or referenced without committing a stance to, posting multiple times that you were waiting for fulcrum with little other meaningful content while there was a lot going on.
Lastly, to touch on the point that resulted in the “cop out” discussion with fulcrum. Aside from that “cop out” part of the discussion (which I agree with because the way you phrased it wasn’t taking ownership of the read and, even later with the post I quoted where you gave thoughts on the LnGr case still being weak – you didn’t offer any opinions one way or another after that), the logic was bad and didn’t go over my head. You were saying that my pressing a mindset case on LnGr when, in your opinion, there was more concrete info to go on with 6Cs is weak.
Firstly, mindset is one of the best ways to catch people in this game, so dismissing that is bad. But you didn’t go into any specifics about why my case on LnGr was weak or pressure me about why I took those angles if you disgreed with the logic. It was clear that LnGr was my top scum read but that I also had suspicions of 6Cs (and I was initiating interaction with him to try to figure out more about his thought process, unlike what you were doing with me). I was also questioning Niv because I had suspicions of him, trying to figure out specifically what was going on with him. Your stance was, literally, that because you thought that 6C’s case had more to it, that I was scummy for not dropping my vote on LnGr and voting 6Cs. By that logic, anyone suspecting two people who puts more pressure on one over the other could be making what you consider a good scum play. By voting 6Cs and acting indignant that there weren’t more votes on him while saying as an aside that you thought what I did could be good scum play, you could just as well have been doing the same thing you accused me of doing, and you didn't make any follow up to try to understand what I was doing more or pressure me.
Furthermore, that read of yours hasn’t evolved over the game. Presumably you have a more favorable read on 6Cs now that you’ve unvoted him after hearing his claim. So, before, you were scum reading him and you thought it good scum play that I’d have given a nod to his wagon while focusing on LnGr… but now that you think 6Cs is likely Town, that hasn’t seemed to impact your read on what I was doing at all. Does it still make sense that I would have done that if 6Cs was Town considering that you thought there was much more reason to be on his wagon at the time? There are many different answers that you could give to that question but my point is not concerned with the answer, it's that you don’t seem to be considering it one way or another. Your opinion on your read of 6Cs changed, but you haven't re-evaluated your opinion of that situation.
Tl:Dr - I don't like KK's response. I don't find his reasons for active lurking outside of his fulcrum stance believable, I think he was avoiding relevant in-game discussion and avoiding taking clear stances on many things while doing so, his read on an earlier game situation hasn't taken into account new game factors, and he's trying to play up things that he thinks are inconsistent to discredit the case when they aren't relevant to the point.
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Also, two more things - look at what he said to Niv "the case (on him) isn't as good as you think it is." That's an odd way for Town to phrase that. In his response to me he says that my case isn't honest, insinuating that it's scummy - so I'd expect him to tell Niv that the case is bad, or wrong, or scummy, or dishonest, etc., and then start pressing me - but instead he says it isn't as good as Niv thinks it is with a focus on poking holes in the case rather than also driving suspicion on me despite thinking that my motives are from a scum mindset - which is just like earlier with the "cop out" point or the point about him summarizing his thoughts on the LnGr case. If he really thought that I was scum then I'd expect him to be much more assertive about pushing that, both throughout the game so far and especially now.
KK says that nothing about his language is self-focused but his reaction about why he was ignoring thread content was because other people weren't interacting with him. Town's goal is to investigate and figure out who scum are, not wait to be interacted with. The mindset that he endorsed is what I would expect from someone trying not to get caught.
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@Gen - I agreed with most of your read on fulcrum - specifically the reason I was town reading her early was her #110 and how her enthusiasm around those reads felt genuine and they were unsolicited. I also remember playing WWII with her aas scum and she played much more on the periphery with questions and then basically had a bus back and forth with her partner. After that, she was back on the periphery with questions again. I feel like she's different here and committing to more reads without her hand being forced and is also playing more similarly to Day 1 of Winterfell.
The things that have given me pause are how enthusiastically she's straight backed what I'm saying, which is giving me flashbacks of Dag, some of her more recent interactions with Niv, and then the timing of when she left LnGr to join the Niv wagon - but I can see what you're saying about what lead to that part. I have her as a Town lean as well.
What do you think of my case on Kool?
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
FWIW, I thought the exact same things about KK in RTR. Especially on D1, it seemed like he was pulling a Megiddo from Xymande and focusing on general theory talk rather than actually scumhunting, but he flipped town there.
Millionaires, I hear it's good Music (Disclaimer: lyrics not PG-13) Thanks, CC
Do you think he's likely town here?
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Should be fine now though.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
I presume this vote count is incorrect inasmuch that I have a single vote.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
DC3, let's say, hypothetically, that tomorrow I showed up mod-confirmed town, and Fulcrum and Niv are still both alive. Does that change your read on either of them?
Kosa, what are your thoughts on the current game state?
I liked Dkings 240. Felt towny.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
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As much as I'd like to Day 1 lynch SNL after Porcelain Waltz, this lynch is bad and I feel bad for having been on it.
Let's look at the wagon instead:
SelesnyaNewLife: Miss_Lynch, dkingsland967, Niv, DCIII, [fulcrum], C6
Let's see, SNL, Miss_Lynch, DCIII, C6 and I are town. Dkings is kind of townish (?). Oh hi there Niv.
I just realized I have a townish reads on everyone except Niv, Koolkoal and LnGrrR. Wat do. Oh, I know.
Vote Niv
SNL: If you want the lynch to go away, you might just want to start answering the questions, hmm.
Then let's say he's town. Who's scum?
What specifically in this game caused you to townclear me--with such certainty--as opposed to Llamas with Hats?
I like DC, but I disagree with some of the points that he made in his case on KK.
I'm starting to renege on my initial scum read on Hookerpunch--however, I m not exactly sure if this is because I am finding slight traces of townie merit in his more recent posts, or if my read on him is simply getting tainted by the fact that I find many of his posts hilarious.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
@fulcrum - why do you think the wagon on SNL is bad? His most recent post didn't address the contradiction in is stance on your /barn play from earlier and his answer to LnGr's question avoided most of the reasons for pressure against him. Seemed like a weird question to pick to answer if he lost a much bigger post. Whole post felt resigned, to me. If you want to rally a Niv vote, I'd like to see the rest of your case.
aside: I think #247 is a town fulcrum post
@Hans - what points did you disagree with in my KK case?
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
At the time I lost pretty much a whole hour of quoting and typing (which for me is A LOT), so I wasn't exactly in the mood for doing it all over again. I already hate quotewalling, and taking the time to do it only for Curse to **** me up made me tilt a bit.
Also, you continue to use smearing words whenever you refer to my actions: "attack anyone that disagrees with me". There were people whose views on you were radically different than mine and I wanted to know their reasons, because I wasn't seeing how you could possibly be town and I'm still not seeing it.
/barn. To quote Cyan, town lynches don't linger on because scum push them through. Scum lynches linger.
I'm not sold on this regarding scum!KK. Not only I'm not seeing scum intent in his posts, but I also remember Kool behaving pretty much like this in Eeveelution and catching the same flak for it (granted, it's been a year and a half but still).
In my opinion being defensive and self-centric is more of a playstyle thing than necessarily a scum trait. I, for example, tend to produce much more in games where I'm being focused than in games where I'm widely regarded as town, because having to defend myself makes me more invested in such games.
As long as this Day ends with the gallows displaying the rotting corpse of Niv or SNL, I'm pretty happy.
Other than that, fulcrum is probably town.
I dislike both fulcrum and HP, but the problem I'm having is that I'm not sure how much of it is behavior and how much of it is my dislike of their playstyles.
KK is iffy. I'm not thinking too much about him at the moment because the things that have seemed off so far are reminiscent of his early play in RTR. One solid point you presented that does resonate with me, though, is that his peripheral reads don't seem to adapt at all when his read of a particular player changes, even when linked together.
My paranoia is also rising a bit about Hans, as he is generally more lurky as scum. He has also promised to provide content and catch-up that hasn't come.
I am considering C808 confirmed town, and I have strong town reads on you, the hydra and Niv. I'm not interested in Kosa (strong Pleasantville vibes) or LnG (frustration felt genuine) right now.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Either way, we're all gonna burn
One of the points that you emphasized heavily against KoolKoal is that he's been actively lurking. I don't think that this is inherently indicative of scum alignment.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
STOP THE ******* PRESSES
GENERIC HAS JUST CALLED SOMEONE CONFBIASED
GENERIC I SAID
GENE-