MTG Salvation

Quote from Void

This is the other post that Shalako is referring too.

The one that Tan posted Shalako did not comment on. This one he did.

Again, I'll agree with tans logic on this post. Remove "in a game" and put "in a thread."

Quote from SharkFinnigan

Again, I'll agree with tans logic on this post. Remove "in a game" and put "in a thread."

And I fully understand and agree to this. Using the word "Game" is to specific. I will use "Other thread" or something along those lines.

I'll wait for the Council decide on what is approriate and what is not.

Quote from DRey

All newbies please contact Arnaria, he's our default mentor.

Why is a chronic replacee considered the "default mentor?"

Quote from Arcadic

Why is a chronic replacee considered the "default mentor?"

First, I want to say that I didn't personally call myself a default mentor. That is DRey's opinion on the subject.

Second, I wanted to make sure I was nowhere near getting blacklisted before I asked if I could mentor. I asked Azrael if there was a problem with my replacement and he assured me that I was nowhere on the radar of the council because my replacements have been due to legitimate reasons. If you would like the transcripts of that conversation, I will post them if it is necessary.

Finally, I asked in multiple threads multiple times if it was okay if I mentored someone. I never asked if I could be the "default mentor"; I simply asked that with my experience and record if it is okay if I mentored due to the fact that I'm not entirely at 100% after my surgery to devote so much time to a game.

If this sentiment is repeated by other players and/or the council itself I will rescind my offer of Mentoring a player. I never asked to be the "default mentor"; I simply asked to be a mentor. If the group at large honestly thinks I should not be doing this, I'll go back to twiddling my thumbs as bookkeeper. I don't want to cause any ill will or hard sentiment either way.

I've no problems with Arnnaria as a mentor.

Should KCC's sign-up thread be reopened since Vampire Mafia ended and we are down to two minis?

Quote from Guardman

Should KCC's sign-up thread be reopened since Vampire Mafia ended and we are down to two minis?

I don't see why not.

@DRey: Please don't post erroneous information that has the potential to confuse new/potential Mafia players. Thanks for understanding.

KCC's sign-ups will be re-opened once all current sign-ups (read: Manders's) are closed. Only one sign-ups are to be open at a time. We've been over this.

Quote from Iso

KCC's sign-ups will be re-opened once all current sign-ups (read: Manders's) are closed. Only one sign-ups are to be open at a time. We've been over this.

I thought basics and non-basics don't overlap on the sign-up rules since they cater to mostly separate playerbases.

Nope. It's main queue vs. League/Clan stuff that can overlap.

Did Ecophagy not post the Clan Contest Mafia setup to the Setup Archive? His co-host is limping along trying to run the game, while we have a system in place to avoid exactly that

The only thing I don't have is the who was assigned to what role. Eco and I came up with the game together, so I'm familiar with the setup - I just need to know who is what.

I thought that might be in the archive, as it's what I'd do.

Quote from Emo_Pinata

BUT YOU WERE WRONG! AND WE ALL KNEW YOU WERE WRONG!

All you had to do was roll over and die and the game we would have had a better chance to win (6 -> 5 (lynch)-> 4 (NK)) giving the town one more chance to lynch before jd got his last kill. Instead you brought the game from a bad situation to worse AGAIN with your terrible play. You refused to acknowledge anything we could prove in game in order to push your own anti-town agenda to promote your own survival. You played horribly scummy. Horribly. And you guaranteed the town's loss with your continued spam ALL GAME.

You will never be able to justify your play with any sort of logic in this game, and I don't understand how you were no infracted for your endless spam. You deserved it.

As for your actions, I think you continue to show a disregard for the rules of the game and forum in your play. In Ketteh Trek you were modkilled for PM quoting when you knew better. In this game you spammed all game (the worst being at the end). You're impulsive, insulting, and generally just negative to everything and everyone in your "playstyle". I was too extreme saying you deserve a blacklisting - but you should be placed on probation and I would recommend mods to think critically before letting you play in a game. At least until you can get your head on straight.

I'm bringing this to the council, because I think DRey should be put on probation, and I think it may be the strongest case I have seen in a long time. He is flaming, spamming, and pushing the rules of the forum and the individual games he is in. He's never not blown up in some fashion in every game I have seen him in.

I'm going to /barn EP's statements and add that he has, in my experience, no respect for the moderators of his games. He was constantly refusing to accept answers I gave him during Kitteh Trek Mafia then proceeded to attack me when he got modkilled for PM quoting.

I think it all boils down to he has no respect.

Quote from Emo_Pinata

I'm bringing this to the council, because I think DRey should be put on probation, and I think it may be the strongest case I have seen in a long time. He is flaming, spamming, and pushing the rules of the forum and the individual games he is in. He's never not blown up in some fashion in every game I have seen him in.

Quote from MandersHex

I'm going to /barn EP's statements and add that he has, in my experience, no respect for the moderators of his games. He was constantly refusing to accept answers I gave him during Kitteh Trek Mafia then proceeded to attack me when he got modkilled for PM quoting.

I think it all boils down to he has no respect.

I will third this. I wrote a rather long post but decided the whole pot/kettle thing was a bit too pronounced (and I don't like infractions) but I would say that DRey made the game much less enjoyable for a myriad of reasons.

Quote from MandersHex

I'm going to /barn EP's statements and add that he has, in my experience, no respect for the moderators of his games. He was constantly refusing to accept answers I gave him during Kitteh Trek Mafia then proceeded to attack me when he got modkilled for PM quoting.

I think it all boils down to he has no respect.

I am going to back this up also.

I would also like to add, that I feel that players that don't want to be in a game should replace out.

Drey said in game that the game was a stupid and unfun game. Then I told him to replace out. His response was to call me a bastard.

He then purposefully spammed the game and made the town lose. I find it hard to think that anyone would not realize they were making their team lose when the game is pretty clear that there is a post kill mechanic in the game. Basically I am saying that he did this on purpose.

Actually, I believe the Mafia Hosting Signups + Player Rules thread is the correct place to nominate someone for probation. I will also note that, regardless of the validity of complaints, Emo_Pinata posting his rant against DRey doesn't really do him any favours. I'm hoping that you can come across as objective in your recommendation, instead of just angry. It will help keep the discussion reasonable instead of provoking more drama.

Apparently there was some communication between DRey and the mod during his most recently game that can shed some light on the validity of the spamming accusation against DRey. I know Seppel is on a beach somewhere, but if he can chime in at some point it would help.

I think Council thread is the right place for Council members to discuss Blacklist recommendations - makes sense to me that way.

Quote from RobRoy

Actually, I believe the Mafia Hosting Signups + Player Rules thread is the correct place to nominate someone for probation. I will also note that, regardless of the validity of complaints, Emo_Pinata posting his rant against DRey doesn't really do him any favours. I'm hoping that you can come across as objective in your recommendation, instead of just angry. It will help keep the discussion reasonable instead of provoking more drama.

Apparently there was some communication between DRey and the mod during his most recently game that can shed some light on the validity of the spamming accusation against DRey. I know Seppel is on a beach somewhere, but if he can chime in at some point it would help.

I was angry when I said he should be blacklisted. I've since calmed down and can objectively point to DRey's behavior being very poor in this game (he got a flaming infraction for insulting players in the game, complained endlessly about the game and it's players, and many of his posts came in triple posts besides the nearly 20 uninterrupted posts in a row), and I can point to his behavior in other games (like the situation MH is talking about).

Probation is suited for this kind of behavior that has been proven to repeat itself. I never brought up his behavior before, but it's come to a head here.

Regarding flaming- anyone who felt flamed should have reported the post they felt was flaming them and let a mod determine proper punishment. If he called someone a name, then I'm sure he'll be punished according to forum rules.

Regarding spamming- you cannot punish a player for doing something that his role PM specifically states he will be rewarded for doing. If you punish DRey for spamming, then every single player who spammed including me should also be punished and Seppel should also share that blame for creating roles that encourage spam. Its all or nothing.

Regarding pushing forum rule boundaries- You cannot punish someone for testing limits unless they actually break a rule. It would be ridiculous if police could issue tickets for "pushing the speed limit" because a driver was driving *exactly* the limit. Once they actually go over the limit, however they are fair game because they have *actually* broken the law.

I don't like the fact that so many are jumping on his case for his playstyle, which is really what this seems to boil down to. If you don't like the way he's playing, lynch him. I don't see anyone dragging kpaca in here for posting the way he does. In fact, people *defend* him for doing it and call it his meta.

There's a difference between "doing what your role says" and being excessive. DRey was being excessive. There is no role I have ever seen in Mafia that benefits a player for posting 10+ times in a row. DRey went way over the top with that.

Quote from Iso

There's a difference between "doing what your role says" and being excessive. DRey was being excessive. There is no role I have ever seen in Mafia that benefits a player for posting 10+ times in a row. DRey went way over the top with that.

If the site rules had allowed it at the time, that would have happened in Inheritance. There was an extra point (used to power abilities) given out at the end of each day to the highest poster - which was usually Seppel. Given that, I'd like to hear from the man himself on if he anticipated this kind of mass spam, and if he believes it went against the rules and/or spirit of his game.

Flatly, the subforum moderators should have egg on their face for that game. I personally had to remind Megiddo to not abuse the game mechanics - to which he acknowledged what he did as wrong. This was one of the games that comes around and requires heavy moderation, and it simply was left to run loose.

I know one role that benefits a player from posting not 10 times in a row but 1000 times in a row Iso, this one:

ROLE
Crazy 88 member (Town - Crazy 88 Member)

DESCRIPTION
You are a member of the Crazy 88 yakuza.

Your mistress, O-Ren Ishii, is being threatened!!

Protect her at all costs!!

ABILITIES
(1) If, at the end of any day, the combined postcount of all living Crazy 88 members is 1,000 or more, you become a one-shot daykiller.

WIN CONDITION
Eliminate all threats to O-ren Ishii.

I'm also not aware spamming was forbiden on mafia, if so I want to know why I'm the one being bashed for it when I'm the tenth top poster as of the game end. That being said I'm not a spammer, in fact I hate spam with a passion, and this is the only game I've spammed here exclusively because of my role PM. I wasn't happy about that but I always try to help my team with the tools that are given to me, in this game, it was by posting a lot.

DRey, I'll say that both Seppel and I got spam infractions in Starcraft Mafia.

Quote from DRey

I know one role that benefits a player from posting not 10 times in a row but 1000 times in a row Iso, this one:



I'm also not aware spamming was forbiden on mafia, if so I want to know why I'm the one being bashed for it when I'm the tenth top poster as of the game end. That being said I'm not a spammer, in fact I hate spam with a passion, and this is the only game I've spammed here exclusively because of my role PM. I wasn't happy about that but I always try to help my team with the tools that are given to me, in this game, it was by posting a lot.

But you knew that people were going to die by spamming. You knew this. You knew you were killing the town. And you were ignore your role pm where O-ren was said to be in game.
You knew this, yet you did it anyways.

This is ignore the fact that you said that you thought this game sucked and that it was a bastard mod game. Yet you refused to replace out.

I would go as far as to say that you purposefully ruined the game. You did this on purpose. What you did, was as far as I am concerned a big deal. If Seppel wants to come in and say it wasn't a big deal. I'll back off, until then there is no way that I will.

Quote from Iso

DRey, I'll say that both Seppel and I got spam infractions in Starcraft Mafia.

Ohh, I had no idea this was possible. Anyway, I don't think this will apply to me since I never spam in games. I just spammed on this one because of my role PM.

Quote from Deaths_Vampire

But you knew that people were going to die by spamming. You knew this. You knew you were killing the town. And you were ignore your role pm where O-ren was said to be in game.
You knew this, yet you did it anyways.

This is ignore the fact that you said that you thought this game sucked and that it was a bastard mod game. Yet you refused to replace out.

I would go as far as to say that you purposefully ruined the game. You did this on purpose. What you did, was as far as I am concerned a big deal. If Seppel wants to come in and say it wasn't a big deal. I'll back off, until then there is no way that I will.

This is wrong, I've explained everything at great lenghts in the end of Kill Bill.

I also want to publicly apologize for flaming you since I agree I was over the top about it, but you hit my weakpoint (plus I had some RL personal problems back there). I'm very proud of never having replaced out in any of my games, it's my biggest acomplishment imho, therefore I got angry when he said I should replace out. I was wrong and I want to publicly apologize to you. Sorry man, that was very very bad taste and it certainly won't happen again! I also want to report to everyone that I was already infracted for that post at the time.

First, DRey had a plan and he went with it. It didn't work out. If it makes anyone feel any better, my original plan was to get the C88 their day vig abilities and then have all of them shoot non-C88 players. That would have won us the game. Back in the days of Puzzle, every time he came up with a plan you had to wonder whether he was scum and trying to talk the town into offing itself. But when his plans worked, they *worked*.

Second- saying a game is bastard mod is not a flamable offense. That's like saying that calling someone's car a Yugo is offensive. It can be a correct or incorrect statement, but inherently it isn't offensive. Also, saying a game sucks is an opinion. I hate Monopoly. It sucks. And yet when my fiance decides to play, I'm counting out play money and rolling dice. Sometimes, playing a sucky game is better than not playing at all. (I personally don't think Seppel's game sucked, I am just playing advocate here.)

Third, as long as he thought that what he was doing was for the best of the town, he was not purposefully ruining the game. If he had been a vig and shot a townie every night, would you be saying he ruined the game on purpose? Or would you say he was severly misguided and made crappy choices?

This is why I say you all seem to have an issue with his playstyle. While you can yell at him for his playstyle all day long, he shouldn't be punished in an official capacity for it. I was cheering him on in the spectator thread after my lynch because he had conviction and he was going to see it through. I like to see guts like that.

Quote from Dork Knight

This is why I say you all seem to have an issue with his playstyle. While you can yell at him for his playstyle all day long, he shouldn't be punished in an official capacity for it. I was cheering him on in the spectator thread after my lynch because he had conviction and he was going to see it through. I like to see guts like that.

I am not vindictive, I am not someone who attacks someone's play style. I don't even care about losing the game (believe me, I imagine my record is probably still sub 50%).

DRey has a lot of good things going for him as a player. He's passionate and he is dedicated to winning. The problem is that DRey has shown he will break rules because of that passion and tenacity, and while I can respect what he brings to the game I feel like he has crossed a line.

I know I specifically communicated with Seppel as to whether there was a potential legitimate reason for DRey to be posting like he did, and Seppel came back and confirmed that there was. If this was any other game where that wasn't a mechanic, DRey would have been dealt with as appropriate, but you cannot ask he be carded over something that Seppel setup. Heck, if that mechanic wasn't there, I would have gladly just merged all the posts and we could move on with our lives. This may be a good time to ask any future post count related mechanics be vetted by a sub moderator just to ensure that this sort of situation doesn't happen again where a player is encouraged by the game to behave in a way inconsitant with the forum rules. Flame Warriors mafia springs to mind as another example of where good intentions/ideas go bad when met with the forum rules proper.

As far as his behavior/playstlyle where there is the accusation that DRey more or less gave up and was playing to lose, I will need the time to actually read the setup and the related post section.

We've had spammy roles in the past, and the mods would still infract players abusing their roles. It's happened to a lot of the players here at one point or another. I don't want his posts taken back, I want the rules in place enforced.

Also, this is not just about this game. Read Ketteh Trek too. I would cite more specifics but I really don't want to dig into DRey's complete posting history.

If you're going to be fiddling around with experimental roles, you can expect a few bad ones to surface. Use caution.

@E_P- Like I said, if he's breaking rules, then by all means, enforce the rules. This is the only game I've been in with him thus far, so I can/will only speak of what I myself witnessed. In this particular game, the only rule I saw him break was flaming, which he was already punished for and apologized about.

Precursor: I did not play in kill bill. I just am interested in the current development.

Now I took a look at the modrules for that game. Rule 2 I believe stated do not threaten to be modkilled.

Now here's a quote by DRey postgame

Quote from DRey

But I only spammed when there were just 5 or so guys. I think you guys are focusing on the last minutes of the game instead of the whole thing.

TIMELINE
Game start, me and C88 receive role and start spamming.
C88 start dying like fries, looks like one die at each 100 posts.
DRey and C88 stop posting a lot.

fast forward
Game is potentially in mylo, there's no way to know, DRey is at L-1 and is town.
DRey has the idea of spamming again to hopefully die and remove the NA from the scum from his mislynch.
DRey spams.

This is this game in a nutshell from my POV.

DRey spammed in hopes that he would be killed. He wanted rolewise death and not modkill, but my understanding is that playing to get killed in a fashion like that could be punishable.

However, the game setup and roles promoted this behavior. I do not condone severe punishment for DRey at all because the experimental nature of the game, but I can see both sides of the issue.

/neutral 2 cents

I'm pretty sure there's nothing here besides a potenially missed flaming infraction between the spamming an lack of a report. I feel confident in saying that the ESL factor is coming into play here, and just prosecuting someone based on not liking their playstyle or pushing rules that aren't often pushed is close to baseless.

I haven't read the game, but having seen the Role PM I can understand and sympathize with DRey's play. The role actively encourages you to make not only a few but a ton of posts. DYH's role in Cyan's Impossible Mafia led to a good amount of borderline spam, and that's DYH - capable of posting more content than just about anyone I've played mafia with - AND the goal was easier to accomplish. This is bad design simply put and nothing else - although I can understand how enraging this would have been without full information.

I do respect EP a tremendous amount, and I find DRey's playstyle to occasionally grate, but asking for probation for a modkill (I was in that game, and didn't care for DRey's argument with Manders) and playing your (badly designed) role seems a little bit excessive to me.

I think people are ignoring one major fact: It was impossible for DRey to obtain his ability at that point without dying.

Quote from ganderin_dan

I'm pretty sure there's nothing here besides a potenially missed flaming infraction between the spamming an lack of a report. I feel confident in saying that the ESL factor is coming into play here, and just prosecuting someone based on not liking their playstyle or pushing rules that aren't often pushed is close to baseless.

Cosign.

To be clear, the spamming and flaming are not an issue to me. If people flame, they get infracted, which, according to DRey DID happen.

The problem for me is his repeated showing of a mindset that it is more important for HIM to live than any other townie, especially in the game in question.

If you haven't read it, his stance is that he spammed at that late point because he was in danger of being mislynched, and that would have cost the town the game, so he decided to force the mechanic in an attempt to get himself killed. He had no way of knowing he would be the one to die (and, in fact, 2 townies died, neither one being him), but he still maintains that it was better for the town if he died at the hand of the mechanic than at the hand of a mislynch. The fact is, if he'd died by mislynch BEFORE the mechanic was enacted, the town still had a chance to win. By doing what he did, he ensured jd's win and the town's loss.

This is just the most recent example, however. I don't think I've ever read a game where he didn't display the belief that his death would be detrimental to the town simply because he is an amazing player with amazing insight, in his own opinion. THAT I have a problem with. EVERY townie should be willing to sacrifice themselves for the betterment of the team.

Quote from MandersHex

To be clear, the spamming and flaming are not an issue to me. If people flame, they get infracted, which, according to DRey DID happen.

The problem for me is his repeated showing of a mindset that it is more important for HIM to live than any other townie, especially in the game in question.

If you haven't read it, his stance is that he spammed at that late point because he was in danger of being mislynched, and that would have cost the town the game, so he decided to force the mechanic in an attempt to get himself killed. He had no way of knowing he would be the one to die (and, in fact, 2 townies died, neither one being him), but he still maintains that it was better for the town if he died at the hand of the mechanic than at the hand of a mislynch. The fact is, if he'd died by mislynch BEFORE the mechanic was enacted, the town still had a chance to win. By doing what he did, he ensured jd's win and the town's loss.

This is just the most recent example, however. I don't think I've ever read a game where he didn't display the belief that his death would be detrimental to the town simply because he is an amazing player with amazing insight, in his own opinion. THAT I have a problem with. EVERY townie should be willing to sacrifice themselves for the betterment of the team.

Wait wasn't it told to me in this very thread that if someone could show consistent behavior it was looked at?

I thought that was enough to black list naka?

Confused.

Quote from Emo_Pinata

DRey has a lot of good things going for him as a player. He's passionate and he is dedicated to winning. The problem is that DRey has shown he will break rules because of that passion and tenacity, and while I can respect what he brings to the game I feel like he has crossed a line.

Fine, but saying "DRey has broken a rule, I will not say what rule neither give an example but he is guitly for sure" is kinda hard to defend against. To my knowledge the only thing that I did on this game that was against the rules was flaming DV and I was already punished according to the rules.

Quote from Emo_Pinata

We've had spammy roles in the past, and the mods would still infract players abusing their roles. It's happened to a lot of the players here at one point or another. I don't want his posts taken back, I want the rules in place enforced.

Also, this is not just about this game. Read Ketteh Trek too. I would cite more specifics but I really don't want to dig into DRey's complete posting history.

Again you say rules were broken but not which rules. You think you know something that you really don't, Seppel never infracted me for spamming or anything of sorts, you are talking about things you don't know about... really. You also don't have perfect knowledge about what happened in Kitteh trek or you would be on my side.

Again, if you want to accuse of me something, do it I have no fear since my conscience is clear, but what I get from your post is "I don't know what he did wrong or if he did anything wrong but he certainly did and deserve severe punishment because I don't like him" and that greatly saddens me, since I haven't anything against you at all and I don't know any reason for such harsh feelings against me. That being said knowing how you feel certainly assures I won't play in a game with you or that you mod again, sorry for being an such an incovenience for you, I will respect your wishes and wish all the best for you in the future without playing with me.

Quote from SharkFinnigan

Now I took a look at the modrules for that game. Rule 2 I believe stated do not threaten to be modkilled.

Now here's a quote by DRey postgame



DRey spammed in hopes that he would be killed. He wanted rolewise death and not modkill, but my understanding is that playing to get killed in a fashion like that could be punishable.

However, the game setup and roles promoted this behavior. I do not condone severe punishment for DRey at all because the experimental nature of the game, but I can see both sides of the issue.

My intention was not to die and screw my team over, at all! you got all wrong, I had imperfect knowledge, with all the info I had I devised a plan to increase town chances of winning, plan backfired and we lost, but we would have lost if I hadn't done what I did anyway because our fate got sealed much earlier when the SK masterfully fooled whole town and turned into "confirmed" town.

Quote from Yanni

I don't understand why Drey thought that spamming would take the night kill away from the mafia. It seemed to me that he was just trying to get the game to end without hammering himself.


Anywho, spamming is playstyle and moderation issue, not a Mafia one.

but yeah: breaking rules JUST to win is unsportsmanlike and should be punishable.

Certainly breaking rules is unsportsmanlike my friend, for any reason, but here's a new info for you I haven't broke any rules. About why I did that I explained that very in depth in the game thread, please read it to understand everything, if you still don't understand please PM me and I will explain to you with more details.

Quote from Iso

I think people are ignoring one major fact: It was impossible for DRey to obtain his ability at that point without dying.

I think you are ignoring one major fact, who said I was trying to obtain my ability on last day? I certainly wasn't since I was like the only one C88 alive and I had like 80 posts (meaning I needed 920 more to active my power PLUS live until the next day). Are you even paying attention?

Quote from Vitek

Well, we were supposed to spam. On day 1 the kills would stop at 1700 posts mark and then we could achieve our ability condition so it was only valid on day 3.
Other thing is how valid it was when Drey did it. He had to know someone will die, gaining of ability was out of realm of possibility and he had to know this too.
So probably only reason he did it was to feel superior or something.

Is it annoying? Sure.
Should people be angry about him? Certainly, they should, I am too. He completed town defeat.
Is it probation worthy? Although I don't know your rules too much, I don't think so. I don't think it broke rules and if it only annoys people then he perhaps should think about his behaviour and change it but he shouldn't be punished officially.

I know what you are saying and understand it, but you are mixing two different situations. Me and my conrades spammed in the early game to try to activate our powers. At the end of the game I had no chance of activating my powers so I spammed for another reason, to prevent a mislynch and potential defeat of the town. Also I have no idea to why you think that makes me feel superior or anything of sorts. Maybe you are repeating other people's opinion without really understanding everything.

Quote from MandersHex

To be clear, the spamming and flaming are not an issue to me. If people flame, they get infracted, which, according to DRey DID happen.

The problem for me is his repeated showing of a mindset that it is more important for HIM to live than any other townie, especially in the game in question.

If you haven't read it, his stance is that he spammed at that late point because he was in danger of being mislynched, and that would have cost the town the game, so he decided to force the mechanic in an attempt to get himself killed. He had no way of knowing he would be the one to die (and, in fact, 2 townies died, neither one being him), but he still maintains that it was better for the town if he died at the hand of the mechanic than at the hand of a mislynch. The fact is, if he'd died by mislynch BEFORE the mechanic was enacted, the town still had a chance to win. By doing what he did, he ensured jd's win and the town's loss.

This is just the most recent example, however. I don't think I've ever read a game where he didn't display the belief that his death would be detrimental to the town simply because he is an amazing player with amazing insight, in his own opinion. THAT I have a problem with. EVERY townie should be willing to sacrifice themselves for the betterment of the team.

This is so very wrong. About your first accusation please read my explanation here

About "the belief that his death would be detrimental to the town simply because he is an amazing player with amazing insight, in his own opinion." This is not true, this was never true and I chalenge you to find just ONE post that I said this that was not part of an in-game gambit (I say this because I remember one time when I did in a gambit like that for reactions purposes but was obviosly non serious) since I never believed on that myself. But you are right about one thing, all townie mislynches are bad for the town, and I will fight with my all to prevent my own mislynch when I'm town because that's detrimental to the town no matter how bad am I as a player, am I doing something wrong? Also I certainly believe a town sacrifice can be good for the town if it helps catching scum since I've just done that in two recent games.

DRey, some people were under the impression that you were trying to unlock your Daykill on the last Day.

So yes, I'm paying attention. Are you?

Also, with all the doubt surrounding my claim, especially that generated by yourself, did you really think that I wouldn't be the one mislynched in the endgame if you and any combination of Eron/EP died? You threw the game, plain and simple - and you did the same thing in Mean Girls (and Modern Family, as well, IIRC). You acted so ridiculously scummy that everybody wanted you dead - we lost because you pretty much forced us to mislynch you, not because your death was a detriment to the town.

Quote from Iso

DRey, some people were under the impression that you were trying to unlock your Daykill on the last Day.

So yes, I'm paying attention. Are you?

Also, with all the doubt surrounding my claim, especially that generated by yourself, did you really think that I wouldn't be the one mislynched in the endgame if you and any combination of Eron/EP died? You threw the game, plain and simple - and you did the same thing in Mean Girls (and Modern Family, as well, IIRC). You acted so ridiculously scummy that everybody wanted you dead - we lost because you pretty much forced us to mislynch you, not because your death was a detriment to the town.

But you certainly aren't one of those uninformed people, since you were playing the game. Why say something to put me in a bad light when you already know that's not the case? if I was in your shoes I would say "hey guys, you are mixing things, DRey was not trying to selflessy activate his powers, he was trying to win the game for to town based on wrong premisses". I know I will step up when I see you (or anyone else) attacked by unfair accusations.

@Kill Bill But I was pushing for your lynch, since from my POV you were the SK because Cythare, DJ and me were confirmed, that was my plan all the time, and when EP and Eron flipped town my belief you were the SK turned into certainty! I don't understand how pushing for the lynch of the one who is 100% the SK is wrong. (In retrospect we all know we were wrong, but you TOO was sure JD was town when he was in fact the SK).

@Mean Girls I was the only one that caught Arimaes, some people thought I was scummy, other guys didn't, eventually I was mislynched, town didn't follow my lead and lynched the guy I defended with my life and town lost, maybe am I missing something?

@Modern Family you CC the cop when you weren't the cop, the cop was mislynched and you the day after, I was never mislynched, maybe am I missing something?

@Iso You of all people saying I should be punished for spamming it's also very off putting, it hurts like a bad joke.

Quote from DRey

But you certainly aren't one of those uninformed people, since you were playing the game. Why say something to put me in a bad light when you already know that's not the case? if I was in your shoes I would say "hey guys, you are mixing things, DRey was not trying to selflessy activate his powers, he was trying to win the game for to town based on wrong premisses". I know I will step up when I see you (or anyone else) attacked by unfair accusations.

I was just stating a fact - people thought you were trying to activate your ability and I corrected them.

Quote from DRey »

@Kill Bill But I was pushing for your lynch, since from my POV you were the SK because Cythare, DJ and me were confirmed, that was my plan all the time, and when EP and Eron flipped town my belief you were the SK turned into certainty! I don't understand how pushing for the lynch of the one who is 100% the SK is wrong. (In retrospect we all know we were wrong, but you TOO was sure JD was town when he was in fact the SK).

I realize we were both wrong, but the fact of the matter is that you still way overstepped the boundaries of what's okay and what's not - and were still wrong. Not only was the means awful, the end did not justify them. (Not to say they would have.)

Quote from DRey »

@Mean Girls I was the only one that caught Arimaes, some people thought I was scummy, other guys didn't, eventually I was mislynched, town didn't follow my lead and lynched the guy I defended with my life and town lost, maybe am I missing something?

No, there was a post I made at the very end where I called out pf and Arim as the scum team - though that's irrelevant, as we still lost. But the point was that your behavior was so detrimental to everyone's reads that even though I was convinced you were town up until that point (and then again after you were lynched), you still aided tremendously in shafting the town - a lot of it was with your botched claim.

Quote from DRey »

@Modern Family you CC the cop when you weren't the cop, the cop was mislynched and you the day after, I was never mislynched, maybe am I missing something?

Fair enough, this was my mistake, I thought you were the last mislynch (though you did spearhead both Void's and my mislynches.)

Quote from DRey »

@Iso You of all people saying I should be punished for spamming it's also very off putting, it hurts like a bad joke.

I don't make twelve fourteen posts in a row in my games.

Edit: This is kind of derailing the main point. Can we go back to that, which is not a playstyle issue, but rather that DRey attempted to post 14 times in a row and was only unsuccessful because of my single post asking someone to make him stop? I don't really want to see DRey on Blacklist or Probation - I just want someone with authority to slap him on the wrist and wag their finger at him.

Opinion: Spamming, even on the order of a dozen consecutive posts, is not grounds for this type of punishment. It's a violation of a forum rule rather than a mafia rule, so it should be answered with warnings and infractions rather than probation/blacklisting.

Quote from atlseal »

I know I specifically communicated with Seppel as to whether there was a potential legitimate reason for DRey to be posting like he did, and Seppel came back and confirmed that there was. If this was any other game where that wasn't a mechanic, DRey would have been dealt with as appropriate, but you cannot ask he be carded over something that Seppel setup.

The precedent is not necessarily one-sided, but Azrael was warned for spamming in World Domination Mafia 2 even though his role could potentially benefit from it, and I believe I eventually started handing out warnings and infractions in Inheritance Mafia when people were spamming to try to get the highest post count. However, I appreciate that it's tricky and subject to determine at what point you cross the line from "this is the setup designer's fault for incentivizing this behavior" to "this is the player's fault for choosing to play the role this way."

Also, FWIW, DRey did not throw the game for the town in Mean Girls Mafia. He made some really unfortunate plays that ultimately got him mislynched, but it wasn't calculated sabotage on his part. Messing up and getting lynched is something that happens to multiple townies in virtually every game; it's not a grounds for punishment.

I think my participation in this conversation is very limited by unfamiliarity with the games in question, but (on a funny side note) I do hope Iso sees the irony in criticizing others for acting so scummy that the town are "forced" to mislynch them :).