Read as: "Don't defend yourself from wild accusations, just wait for punishment to be meaded out."
Nope. Tell me what I did wrong, tell me how to avoid doing that in the future, and give me a chance to defend myself from false accusations.
I believe that this is the first time in this thread that you have asked to be told what you did wrong. Now that you have, I would suggest this is an excellent time for us all to quiet down and wait for Charm to tell us (or you, if he would prefer to take this to PM) his belief.
I told you all to calm down as the discussions as a whole were getting pretty heated, and I didn't want a full-on flame war forcing the game to stop. You continued to not only attack other players, but made the game to the point where multiple players asked to be replaced if you were not dealt with. Given the slack I gave you on the PM quoting issue (for not wanting to create a giant ball of WIFOM), I feel a modkill was more than justified. Your attacks on me in this thread do nothing but reinforce my logic that the game is better for it by you no longer being there. (The Grakthis Rule, if memory serves)
I will be saying nothing more on the matter until the game's conclusion, at which point I will give my opinion on what should happen to DH.
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
You know Charm, the first step to dealing with any issue is usually to talk to a person. You kind of neglected that step. This could all have probably been solved by a PM conversation. A mass warning in the main thread served no purpose but to call me out in front of the group. Never once did you ask me to do anything to modify my behavior - all you did was post in the thread that Ad Hom and flaming needed to stop. I didn't Ad Hom or flame anyone after that and to be perfectly honest, my aggressive behavior had served it's purpose of moving suspicion off me and I was done with it.
Was I out of line? Possibly. Please tell me where and how. Did you handle it correctly? Not even close. Clear communication, especially in disciplinary scenarios, is very important. You failed to communicate effectively and modkilled me instead of talking about it.
My "attacks on you" consist of me calling you butthurt and accusing you of acting based on your personal feelings instead of your moderator responsibilities. Nothing has changed my opinion of that.
Anything to say for yourself about your attempted slander with the post manipulation comment? Or how about the part where you tell me specifically where I was out of line so I can improve my behavior for the future. I am nothing if not willing to learn. Give me an opportunity to better myself if you see a problem. If you think that needs to be a private conversation, then please do so. I don't see how any of this relates to the gamestate though.
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In response to me defeating the town in a Perfect Scum Victory in Avatar Mafia:
Seeing as how other players were so put off by your behavior that they would rather replace than deal with you, I think you should wait until the game is over so we can hear from them too.
It's a large game that just started. You are talking about waiting potentially 3-4 months. Is there any reason why discussing this could damage the gamestate? The issue is that I supposedly made the game unfun for some of the players. I need to know what I said that hurt people's feelings and I need to avoid doing so in the future. That seems like a relevant thing to tell me right now before I have the potential of doing it again.
I know some people were getting frustrated, but I was frustrated at being run up for reasons I considered bad. If I legitimately hurt anyone's feelings, that is news to me and needs to be addressed as soon as possible.
I don't see how any of this relates to the gamestate though.
Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't. Everything relates/is analised in mafia, if you really want to improve, cease this conversation at once as multiple people already asked you to. Patience is a virtue yound grasshopper.
I know some people were getting frustrated, but I was frustrated at being run up for reasons I considered bad
Isn't that always true in all mislynches? everyone is frustrated when they are being mislynched (including scum) that's a normal feeling that must be controlled if you want to "succeed" in this game.
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
I want to talk to the players who I offended, find out how I offended them, and apologize. Dealing with emotional responses isn't something you can just put off for three months. If someone feels I've hurt them, three months can turn that in a grudge that can never be dealt with.
You guys are the ones who are always the champions of the community being more important than the game. If there are hurt feelings that need addressed, that is a community issue more important than the gamestate. (If those two things were even related, which I'm not convinced of.)
I made a few people mad to gauge reactions and deflect suspicion. If there is anything beyond that that was leading people to not want to play any more, it sounds like I did more harm than I realized. Screw the modkill, I didn't legitimately mean to hurt anyone.
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In response to me defeating the town in a Perfect Scum Victory in Avatar Mafia:
I want to talk to the players who I offended, find out how I offended them, and apologize. Dealing with emotional responses isn't something you can just put off for three months. If someone feels I've hurt them, three months can turn that in a grudge that can never be dealt with.
You guys are the ones who are always the champions of the community being more important than the game. If there are hurt feelings that need addressed, that is a community issue more important than the gamestate. (If those two things were even related, which I'm not convinced of.)
I made a few people mad to gauge reactions and deflect suspicion. If there is anything beyond that that was leading people to not want to play any more, it sounds like I did more harm than I realized. Screw the modkill, I didn't legitimately mean to hurt anyone.
I know it's really hard to wait for a long time to address with emotional feelings that just happened, but I've been in your shoes before and I must say, it's certainly for the better. And no, waiting for more time will certainly not make this problem bigger than it already is, actually it's just the opposite, remember time heals all sorrows, just trust me here.
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The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
The thing is, the mod did not handle the situation well. If he wanted me to change my behavior, he could have pmed me and had a chat. What he did, was post in the main thread with "someone here needs to behave and we all know who it is". That is not a disciplinary measure or warning, it's a thinly veiled attempt to embarrass me. I explained my behavior an literally said "suck it" because I am not going to tolerate being publicly threatene or put down.
And so when he made his post, why didn't you PM him to talk about it rather than tell him off? As far as I'm concerned, you're just as guilty on that front.
Alright while typing up what I wanted to say, I realized that some of what I was saying was quite hypocritical.
Mostly me having an issue with how naka was treated and then me bringing up things from the past.
Food for though though.
How much is this community ok with bringing up peoples personal lives?
I understand the arguments with Naka, I do. But if there is a player A and player B knows that player A has a couple of DUI's for example. Is that even pertinent at all? Ever?
Are we going to exclude players simply for the real life pasts or issues?
Alright while typing up what I wanted to say, I realized that some of what I was saying was quite hypocritical.
Mostly me having an issue with how naka was treated and then me bringing up things from the past.
Food for though though.
How much is this community ok with bringing up peoples personal lives?
I understand the arguments with Naka, I do. But if there is a player A and player B knows that player A has a couple of DUI's for example. Is that even pertinent at all? Ever?
Are we going to exclude players simply for the real life pasts or issues?
I think that question simply cannot be answered in any sort of general or blanket sense. There are simply so many different possibilities.
For example, you mention DUI. Personally, I don't care if someone has a DUI on their record. On the other hand, if it turns out someone is, say, a member of the KKK, I probably won't want to associate with them regardless of any Mafia related stuff. But at the same time, I don't think there's any benefit in the Council saying ahead of time either "We will definitely ban someone for being in the KKK" or "We will definitely not ban someone for being in the KKK". If something comes up, it comes up and is dealt with based on the circumstances. And at that time it can also be decided whether the person bringing up the information was doing so in good faith or not.
I think real life needs to be kept out of mafia. That goes for people who do stupid **** and for people who want to make excuses because things are going badly. V/LAs happen sometimes, but you don't have to post reasons for them.
Honestly, I don't see why any of us care about what's going on in the real lives of the other players. On a personal level, sure. But as far as who's allowed to play mafia or who is scummy in games? It has no bearing.
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In response to me defeating the town in a Perfect Scum Victory in Avatar Mafia:
@Charm and Dragonheart - Please provide linkage to the pertinent events. We are taking allegations of this kind very seriously at this time, and serious consequences are a possibility depending on the evidence.
How much is this community ok with bringing up peoples personal lives?
In the legal system, it is not permissible to bring up past events to prove wrongful acts "in conformity" with the behavior they are accused of. However, it is permissible to raise such actions when the credibility of a witness or defendant is relevant to the case, and their past actions shed light on their credibility.
In my opinion, Naka's history shed a great deal of light upon his credibility as a witness. Once his credibility as a witness was undermined, his testimony regarding the PMing after death incident was tainted.
Naka was never punished for those past actions off the site - he was punished for what he did, while here.
I think real life needs to be kept out of mafia. That goes for people who do stupid **** and for people who want to make excuses because things are going badly. V/LAs happen sometimes, but you don't have to post reasons for them.
Thing is, people are going to do anything they can to push against you, so if I "suddenly" have to be V/LA, I don't want it used opportunistically against me. So I will continue to explain why I am V/LA.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Which is just more WIFOM, because it's not hard to create reasons to go V/LA. Has anyone ever checked the list of excuses and seen if anyone on this forum has run out of relatives to kill off for V/LAs?
Personally I don't think going V/LA should be used as a game mechanic and should only be done in real important circumstances, but that doesn't mean people won't accuse each other of using it like that.
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In response to me defeating the town in a Perfect Scum Victory in Avatar Mafia:
We could try a "pre-season" phase. It could be like a dry-run; we test everything we have come up with so far and work out the issues that come up. Once we are confident in the system, we move to Season 1 rankings.
That is of course only possible if we have a working system. If not, we need to design it.
We could try a "pre-season" phase. It could be like a dry-run; we test everything we have come up with so far and work out the issues that come up. Once we are confident in the system, we move to Season 1 rankings.
That is of course only possible if we have a working system. If not, we need to design it.
Announce it and test until years end?
If it feels like its doing well in pretest a couple weeks out, it launches janurary 1st 2013?
I think it might take even longer than that to test sufficiently. We'll want everyone participating to have at least 2-3 games to see what the rankings are doing.
It would be helpful to see where we are on the system right now. Does anyone on the council have all the league info to copy-paste here for review?
I think it might take even longer than that to test sufficiently. We'll want everyone participating to have at least 2-3 games to see what the rankings are doing.
It would be helpful to see where we are on the system right now. Does anyone on the council have all the league info to copy-paste here for review?
Disagree. It's sometimes preferable to include two or even three roles that are similar to each other simply because there is a tendency to believe 'oh the mod wouldn't do that'. I think we need to get away from thinking about what the mod would or wouldn't do and focus on behavioral analysis.
A new feature is being tested out/developed and I'm here to see if members/fellow council members thought it would be helpful for us. The feature is customizable thread prefixes. Basically, we can have custom HTML code for prefixes of our choosing.
From my understanding, it is an additional drop-down option when creating/modifying a thread and in our case could be used to signify game type (much like we do now, but we can customize the formatting of the text).
Say we want to color-code game types, threads would now appear in the forum like: Basic - Proper Game Title Mini - Proper Game Title Normal - Proper Game Title Specialty - Proper Game Title
Or whatever formatting you want. I thought that might work nice for easier distinguishing of games here. Anybody interested? If so, I need to let the admins know what we want and how it should be formatted.
We could just put [ML] Or something at the end of the thread title to indicate it is part of the league. I also like the color coded game time should make it easier on the eyes.
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2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm going to make this an informal poll. Here are the current pending suggestions:
Basic - Proper Game Title Mini - Proper Game Title Normal - Proper Game Title Specialty - Proper Game Title FQT - Proper Game Title PCQ - Proper Game Title League - Proper Game Title
If anybody uses a different skin where any of these are hard to see, please speak up.
I'm going to make this an informal poll. Here are the current pending suggestions:
Basic - Proper Game Title Mini - Proper Game Title Normal - Proper Game Title Specialty - Proper Game Title FQT - Proper Game Title PCQ - Proper Game Title League - Proper Game Title
If anybody uses a different skin where any of these are hard to see, please speak up.
I tried it out on all the skins and they all work except for the black for league which is somewhat readable on dark and dark blue, but unseeable on red or blue skins:
League
Brown seems to work better.
Also the magenta for FTQ bothers (which I know is strange since I am the number one magenta user in mafia).
What's wrong with just bracketing the type like we do now? We can just coerce people into doing it for all games (though most already do).
I believe so it will be easier to tell different types of games from each other and also make it easier to find games of a certain type.
I know sometimes it takes me a minute to find the game I want when I look at the forum because of how many games are going on at once and how fast the forum moves.
PS: Trying out the different styles made me remember how much I hate the default style for some reason.
Game-type colorings are now available when you create a new thread or when you advanced edit the first post of a thread. You should see me and game hosts changing thread prefixes to the new system over the coming week. I'm starting to consider that we'll need an additional one for sign-up threads as well.
As an aside, how would people feel about the soft-deleting or demarkation of sign-up threads? Right now, sign-up threads for games that have already completed do little more than clog up the forum. (Soft-deleting means more or less that the thread gets hidden to normal members)
I believe that this is the first time in this thread that you have asked to be told what you did wrong. Now that you have, I would suggest this is an excellent time for us all to quiet down and wait for Charm to tell us (or you, if he would prefer to take this to PM) his belief.
I will be saying nothing more on the matter until the game's conclusion, at which point I will give my opinion on what should happen to DH.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
Was I out of line? Possibly. Please tell me where and how. Did you handle it correctly? Not even close. Clear communication, especially in disciplinary scenarios, is very important. You failed to communicate effectively and modkilled me instead of talking about it.
My "attacks on you" consist of me calling you butthurt and accusing you of acting based on your personal feelings instead of your moderator responsibilities. Nothing has changed my opinion of that.
Anything to say for yourself about your attempted slander with the post manipulation comment? Or how about the part where you tell me specifically where I was out of line so I can improve my behavior for the future. I am nothing if not willing to learn. Give me an opportunity to better myself if you see a problem. If you think that needs to be a private conversation, then please do so. I don't see how any of this relates to the gamestate though.
I know some people were getting frustrated, but I was frustrated at being run up for reasons I considered bad. If I legitimately hurt anyone's feelings, that is news to me and needs to be addressed as soon as possible.
Isn't that always true in all mislynches? everyone is frustrated when they are being mislynched (including scum) that's a normal feeling that must be controlled if you want to "succeed" in this game.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
You guys are the ones who are always the champions of the community being more important than the game. If there are hurt feelings that need addressed, that is a community issue more important than the gamestate. (If those two things were even related, which I'm not convinced of.)
I made a few people mad to gauge reactions and deflect suspicion. If there is anything beyond that that was leading people to not want to play any more, it sounds like I did more harm than I realized. Screw the modkill, I didn't legitimately mean to hurt anyone.
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
And so when he made his post, why didn't you PM him to talk about it rather than tell him off? As far as I'm concerned, you're just as guilty on that front.
Game is ongoing. Wait for it to be over to handle this.
The Family
Mostly me having an issue with how naka was treated and then me bringing up things from the past.
Food for though though.
How much is this community ok with bringing up peoples personal lives?
I understand the arguments with Naka, I do. But if there is a player A and player B knows that player A has a couple of DUI's for example. Is that even pertinent at all? Ever?
Are we going to exclude players simply for the real life pasts or issues?
Personally, if the player has shown that they are making a consensus descion of not wanting to change, then why give them any more chances?
But what I am saying is that that is fine. Personal issues should never be brought up. If a player breaks a rule then they break a rule. That's it.
For example, you mention DUI. Personally, I don't care if someone has a DUI on their record. On the other hand, if it turns out someone is, say, a member of the KKK, I probably won't want to associate with them regardless of any Mafia related stuff. But at the same time, I don't think there's any benefit in the Council saying ahead of time either "We will definitely ban someone for being in the KKK" or "We will definitely not ban someone for being in the KKK". If something comes up, it comes up and is dealt with based on the circumstances. And at that time it can also be decided whether the person bringing up the information was doing so in good faith or not.
Honestly, I don't see why any of us care about what's going on in the real lives of the other players. On a personal level, sure. But as far as who's allowed to play mafia or who is scummy in games? It has no bearing.
In the legal system, it is not permissible to bring up past events to prove wrongful acts "in conformity" with the behavior they are accused of. However, it is permissible to raise such actions when the credibility of a witness or defendant is relevant to the case, and their past actions shed light on their credibility.
In my opinion, Naka's history shed a great deal of light upon his credibility as a witness. Once his credibility as a witness was undermined, his testimony regarding the PMing after death incident was tainted.
Naka was never punished for those past actions off the site - he was punished for what he did, while here.
Is the mafia league idea dead?
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyThing is, people are going to do anything they can to push against you, so if I "suddenly" have to be V/LA, I don't want it used opportunistically against me. So I will continue to explain why I am V/LA.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Personally I don't think going V/LA should be used as a game mechanic and should only be done in real important circumstances, but that doesn't mean people won't accuse each other of using it like that.
At this point, we're unsure how to implement it going forward.
That is of course only possible if we have a working system. If not, we need to design it.
Announce it and test until years end?
If it feels like its doing well in pretest a couple weeks out, it launches janurary 1st 2013?
Sound good?
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyIt would be helpful to see where we are on the system right now. Does anyone on the council have all the league info to copy-paste here for review?
Everything's here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=394685
When playing in a league, I dislike a large amount of luck.
But maybe im overhyping it. I say we test those rules in a mock-up game, and see if it feels right. Talk may be good, but its just talk.....
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyJohnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
Is this a council issue or perhaps Theory?
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
From my understanding, it is an additional drop-down option when creating/modifying a thread and in our case could be used to signify game type (much like we do now, but we can customize the formatting of the text).
Say we want to color-code game types, threads would now appear in the forum like:
Basic - Proper Game Title
Mini - Proper Game Title
Normal - Proper Game Title
Specialty - Proper Game Title
Or whatever formatting you want. I thought that might work nice for easier distinguishing of games here. Anybody interested? If so, I need to let the admins know what we want and how it should be formatted.
Yes, that shouldn't be an issue.
Maybe change it to Orchid.
Other than that good idea.
The examples were merely meant as an example of what could be done. We can chose however we want the blocks to be represented on the screen.
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wwab is the best mafia player ever
Want to trade with me?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=294434
[L Normal] Mafia Mafia - Day 1
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Plus Poll to choose the Colors?
Polls!
[Mafia Stats] Mafia MVP: 1/3 Basic #29,Co-[CCMV]
Basic - Proper Game Title
Mini - Proper Game Title
Normal - Proper Game Title
Specialty - Proper Game Title
FQT - Proper Game Title
PCQ - Proper Game Title
League - Proper Game Title
If anybody uses a different skin where any of these are hard to see, please speak up.
I tried it out on all the skins and they all work except for the black for league which is somewhat readable on dark and dark blue, but unseeable on red or blue skins:
League
Brown seems to work better.
Also the magenta for FTQ bothers (which I know is strange since I am the number one magenta user in mafia).
How about Dark Grey for FTQ:
FTQ
I believe so it will be easier to tell different types of games from each other and also make it easier to find games of a certain type.
I know sometimes it takes me a minute to find the game I want when I look at the forum because of how many games are going on at once and how fast the forum moves.
PS: Trying out the different styles made me remember how much I hate the default style for some reason.
I like brown or light pink for league games.
It's the thumbs up icon under the avatar and next to the report button.
As an aside, how would people feel about the soft-deleting or demarkation of sign-up threads? Right now, sign-up threads for games that have already completed do little more than clog up the forum. (Soft-deleting means more or less that the thread gets hidden to normal members)