I have established a trend of anti-town play. My experience with Burstinatrix is that, even when he isn't playing well as town, he is at least asking probing questions and doing something resembling scum-hunting. Even before the holidays, he made one self-admitted mudsling against iLord (who is incidentally one of my few strong town reads), then crumbled when called out by Wessel. This is scummy by any metric.
Inexperienced scum previously under scrutiny don't come out of holiday-lurk to weakly bus a buddy under minimal pressure. Even if scum-Yanni got town points for being attacked by scum, the fact that Burst got lynched for pushing such a weak wagon doesn't do their team any good (especially considering scum-Yanni is generally not subtle enough to survive to endgame, anyway).
No, I don't think you understand me. Why is Yanni lynchbait, and Burst scum. Why can't they both be lynchbait or Yanni be scum?
I understood you; you don't understand me. In theory, they could both be lynchbait or Yanni could be scum. But because I've demonstrated that Burst is scum, neither can be true here.
(not that it mattered much, Yanni still thinks I wanted to clear Zaz if he was a vet or something), but not feeling like searching for atm, basically I though he was both fishing for power roles and flavorgame us into the D1 lynch.
No where did I say what he is accusing be of. I've also not fished for power roles or tried to flavor game. Drey was obviously trying to paint me as scummy in this post.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
Please explain why an inexperienced scum would never do that.
I made a bit of an over-generalization; some players (Cyouni is the example that comes first to mind due to personal experience in Basic #10) are extremely clever and manipulative, even in their first games as scum. These players can craft webs of WIFOM like you wouldn't believe and walk the other way with the game while you're stuck in the middle. Burst is not one of these players. If anything, he's gotten himself stuck in a trap of his own creation.
The entire tone of his "catch-up" post indicates disinterest in the game and a desire to push an easy lynch. I don't see effort, I don't see probing questions I associate with his town play, and I don't see a player who cares what happens to the town. I see scum.
So you think Yanni and Burst can't be both scum because Yanni 'knows' he can't endgame as scum?
I'm not sure this thought would have consciously crossed their minds as scum, but it's one of those icing-on-the-cake observations that, when added to an already strong case, just sweetens the deal. You may choose to disregard it as it's basely on a hypothetical (and impossible, given the situation we're in) scenario.
No where did I say what he is accusing be of. I've also not fished for power roles or tried to flavor game. Drey was obviously trying to paint me as scummy in this post.
I heard, he thinks, I did.
Seriously. Yanni's post feels like another strawman. Making a false accusation does not directly translate to not reading the thread; it could range anywhere from an innocent case of mistaken identity to deliberate smearing. You'd have to establish a trend of such behavior, and demonstrate how it lines up with displays of disinterest (such as Burst's), to prove that he's not reading.
Speaking of which, I forgot to comment on this Burst post in which he defends his statement re: reading the thread:
2) I'm asking for people's opinion of Yanni because I almost always think he's scum and am wondering if they think it's normal Yanni or if he's actually scum. I don't want to waste time and have scum hide behind our arguments like they normally do.
This is the completely wrong way to go about this from a town perspective. Townies go after players they think are scum by analyzing their posts and trying to establish patterns of anti-town play. (Occasionally some fish just jump into your boat, eh vezokpiraka? ;)) Scum (ideally) try to mimic this strategy, but faking reads is easier said than done, so a lot of scum, especially inexperienced scum, end up /barning, buddying, or straight-up not reading, among other potential shortcuts. You managed to do all three in one post, while providing no original analysis of your own. You can't justify this as town play.
I do not agree with your view, due to the pattern I have noticed. Very little in the way of scum-hunting, a lot of fidgety, self-conscious play.
But those are also hallmarks of inexperienced players (read: idiots whatever euphemism for "idiots" I'm using today), and you aren't drawing the distinction by highlighting the scummy intentions behind these scummy actions.
You seem to have some sense of Burst's town play vs. his scum play. Care to give examples to back up your analysis above?
Because townies know they're townies and (usually) will be able to respond to bad cases without relying on such things. That's not to say townies never mudsling or are hypocritical, it's just that they don't do it with the intention of swinging suspicion onto other players/away from themselves. (This is more true for mudslinging than hypocrisy, but the point was not just that AE was a hypocrite, it was that the reasons he used to put suspicion on Brinatoo worked just as well on him, notwithstanding the validity of the Brinatoo case itself.)
So I guess the point is not a matter of more or less, but intention. Not only has AE done everything in his power to swing suspicion onto Brinatoo, he's directly failed to answer my questions without bringing him up, then claimed as such; he's also made other statements which seem to imply an attempt to cast my case* Liquidity Crisis in a bad light. These suggest a more deliberate intention than just self-defense behind his posts.
But more and more, I'm getting the impression that he's just an idiot, which throws that suggestion into question. I hope to have a better sense of the case after he gives me a straight answer.
If you had to quote two parts of AE's posts that best illustrate why you feel like he's mudslinging intentionally, which would they be?
I'm trying to condense the argument here to the part that matters. Too much of it his devolved into whether or not he was being hypocritical and not enough exploring his mindset.
Actually, something different from past town play is definitely worth investigating.
I disagree. There's an infinite amount of explanations for variance in behavior - you don't have any backbone at all unless you have both town and scum games that support your theory, and even then the correlation is usually not sufficient without a reasonable exploration of the player's mindset.
Quote from ced »
Niv makes the case that Brinatoo had not been scumhunting. AE, who hadn't done any either at that stage (because, fair enough, he was busy), came in and agreed with the case.
If you hadn't done anything in a game yet, why would you be concerned by somebody else who is similar?
By my understanding, AE was concerned with the fact that Brinatoo was posting, but not contributing.
Not very strong, I know, but hypocrisy is hardly an indication of scum.
Quote from ced »
Extremely weak examples, seeing as a) he was scum in both, hence it's impossible to use it as evidence of me being opportunistic, and b) he wasn't actually wagoned in Fahrenheit until the setup got busted open (as an aside, jeez was I a lot better at mafia than I am now back in that game).
Any better examples?
Liquid did a great job making a list.
Quote from ced »
How do you justify applying the bolded bit as a defense for AE but not for Brinatoo?
I don't think Brinatoo not contributing is indicative of scum. The reason why the case against him loss so much steam is because people are fallaciously marking his antagonistic and non-contributing style as scum. Many more experienced players have correctly noted that this is not indicative of alignment, and so the case died. The sprouting point of my concern with him was his #169, but since then, the rest of his posts have just been engaged in idle argument from which it is mostly impossible to glean much with regards to alignment.
AE's case was that Brinatoo was trying to coast by without scumhunting.
You know once upon a time this would have been a ridiculous query, but I've unfortunately found this to be an increasingly relevant concern:
In this case, why do you feel attempting to coast by the game without contributing indicative of scum?
Quote from Brinatoo »
What is on virtual paper isn't the whole story. As for the aggressive apathy, that is just how I am sometimes, indifferent. It's a really bad trait and also is why I procrastinate as much as I do.
If you could briefly explain your reads on three-five players, I would love to look at it.
Actually, it looks liked Zas is asking for a lot more >_>.
Quote from Zas »
#169 - reaction on comments + list of town/scum candidates
Can be noted positively since it adds more content than a single vote on a (still today) nonexistent player. But still adds no reasons to opinions and can hence also be read negatively as buddying. iLord pointed out an inconsistency that I feel isn't worth adding to a case.
Funny how I felt that was the only thing worth noting.
Quote from AsianInvasion »
Translation: "I don't plan on catching up because I know who the town and scum are, and it turns out that the nonentity known as Wrath_of_DoG thinks the lynchbait known as Yanni is scum, so there must be more people we can sucker into lynching him. I also want to leave myself wiggle room because I know Yanni is going to flip town."
So Burstinatrix just cemented himself as scum in my eyes, and by doing so, cleared Yanni. Which isn't to say that Yanni's failure to do anything relevant thrills me. WoD's alignment is not directly linked to Burst's, but if I'm reading this situation correctly, WoD is, more likely than not, also a dupe-to-be.
Two interpretations here. Either AI is exaggerating how badly he wants Burst lynched to simulate townie determination, or AI is interested only in getting Burst lynched. Neither look good.
Also the Yanni link is poorly substantiated and too hastily drawn.
Quote from AsianInvasion »
Who wants to join me and Alpha in forming a wagonvoting bloc against Burstinatrix?
I think that this was a nice trap that kpaca set. AsianInvasion trying to fit in where he doesn't belong feels completely unnatural, like scum trying to use it to orchestrate a lynch.
Unvote, Vote AsianInvasion
Quote from AsianInvasion »
When taken with his admission of painting another player as scummy (#45; note the borderline hostile tone of "pretty obvious" in his backtrack post #48), his failure to keep his facts straight (#61), his admitting to following previous scum meta (#125; I somehow missed this originally, props to Alpha for pointing it out in #141) and his inability to explain his actions in a rational and town-minded way (#134-#156), Burstinatrix's unwillingness to reread suddenly seems a lot less like bad town play and a lot more like scum trying to worm his way to an easy lynch.
Burst being scum clears Yanni. That should be apparent.
Burst can't be lynchbait in a game where he is scum. I'm sure he gets lynched as town, too. That doesn't make him town here.
Any more questions?
Yanni: How is this post scummy? How is this link logical?
AsianInvasion: Look at all these others things that Burst has done that are scummy! That post looks a lot worse now, doesn't it? Also the link should be self-apparent.
Quote from AsianInvasion »
I made a bit of an over-generalization; some players (Cyouni is the example that comes first to mind due to personal experience in Basic #10) are extremely clever and manipulative, even in their first games as scum. These players can craft webs of WIFOM like you wouldn't believe and walk the other way with the game while you're stuck in the middle. Burst is not one of these players. If anything, he's gotten himself stuck in a trap of his own creation.
The entire tone of his "catch-up" post indicates disinterest in the game and a desire to push an easy lynch. I don't see effort, I don't see probing questions I associate with his town play, and I don't see a player who cares what happens to the town. I see scum.
You're overassuming how one-dimensional people are, even inexperienced players. It isn't necessary to have a master plan completely in place - it's not a long shot at all that a scum not following the thread closely can pop in and call they're buddy scum.
Also I don't think Burst believes that he has the capacity to lead a lynch on Yanni. You think that Burst believes he could lead such a lynch?
Seems as though every case in this game right now is fake.
Who do you think comes out looking worse for it? And do you agree that Burst being scum clears Yanni?
I like my vote on Yanni still personally.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Clan Is Dead.... Long Live The Izzet! Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner! Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
@Pale
Look I've already answered all this stuff you are asking me, but I will do it again to hopefully make you understand what I thought back there.
a)I didn't think Zaz was kidding back there, I still don't.
b)I believed Ced to be kidding about the oxygen stuff (I don't really think there's an oxygen elemental), but he didn't seem to be kidding about the massclaim, that's two different issues. Anyway is always better to clarify, before jumping to conclusions (I know I didn't do it with Zaz, but I wanted to end RVS) so I asked him to clarify. I was actually a bit surprised it didn't even cross his mind how bad that proposal was because he's a vet and all.
c)I don't believe the smiley in Zaz post was indicative of humor. It was a not-so-subtle way to make his proposal more innocuous than it really was and an easy way to backtrack after being attacked for it "hey guys I was kidding, lol,really, see the smile, I was just RVSing". That's the reason I asked about his experience, to determine if he was just smart scum trying to pass a Bad Idea already preparing a Way Out or noob town that just doesn't know any better.
Actually I don't also remember him confirming nor denying it, and he has totally submerged so he probably is scum trying to put it under the rug exactly the way scum would do. vote: Zaz
@DJC: I also don't remember you finally clarifying about that coaching stuff, don't think I forgot about that. What the hell you were talking about?
No where did I say what he is accusing be of. I've also not fished for power roles or tried to flavor game. Drey was obviously trying to paint me as scummy in this post.
Please go reread again. If you still don't understand, reread yet again. After all that if you still believe on this, ask again so I can make fun of you.
Also you really need to stop believing everyone is against you.
About Noob players
I know I defended Burst with this reasoning too, but we are moving in circles with the "what he said was scummy but he could be just inexperienced town playing badly". The new trend is to completely ignore everything noob players say and lynch veterans only? If so I hope I'm still considered new. :xd:
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The game is not being dumbed down. Control is doing fine; Draw-Go is not the only kind of control. Aggro is doing fine; Red Deck Wins is not the only kind of aggro. Creature combat is an important core concept and belongs in every color. Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
@DJC: I also don't remember you finally clarifying about that coaching stuff, don't think I forgot about that. What the hell you were talking about?
I did a few times, actually. But once and for all:
Quote from Zasz »
*sings*
I have noticed something suspicious, but I'm not the only one.
Quote from kpaca »
I bolded the biggest display of coaching I've ever seen in my entire flipping life.
I don't believe that Zasz would make such a heavy-handed coaching slip, so on the same coin I do not believe that an experienced player like kpaca would buy into something like this. He's since restated that he honestly does, and I've since cemented my position that he's up to something as a result.
Question for you...why the suddent interest in a long-dead issue? Is it just because my name popped back up? IIRC, you weren't interested back when this was happening - and kpaca was fingering you as Zasz's scum-buddy at the time. can you speak to that?
Quote from Pale Mage »
Make. Fetch. Happen. Your. Own. Self.
Top three scum and town ASAP from you plskthx.
Thanks for that. I noted that I'm trying to re-read after being away for a week, said what I saw on AE and Brin in that same post you quoted , and you jump on this?
...
To give you somewhat of an answer, I don't have a solid enough read on anyone at this point to give you a scum list. I'm trying to reread as I can to catch stuff I didn't the first time around, but I wasn't in this game for a full week. That's hard to get quickly caught up on.
If I'm pointing FoS, it would be Kpaca for the original coaching issue that Drey just brought back up, and I'm starting to lean toward buying into the cases made against Brin by AE the more I read them. On top of that, I'm irritated with LC for being asked to chill with the "Idiot" thing and deciding to completely ignore it via snarky phrasing, and I'm interested in your post (#401) regarding Drey.
But I'm not feeling like I'm comfortable enough with what has hppened until now to vote anywhere.
You seem to have some sense of Burst's town play vs. his scum play. Care to give examples to back up your analysis above?
To be fair, my only experience with Burstinatrix is 300 Mafia, where he was the town vig. However, I'd say his play is black and white between this game and that one.
Also the Yanni link is poorly substantiated and too hastily drawn.
Well, it was based on the assumption that Burst had no intention on catching up posts he had missed since he became absent. Given that this is no longer a valid argument, everything I said seems to be void.
I think that this was a nice trap that kpaca set. AsianInvasion trying to fit in where he doesn't belong feels completely unnatural, like scum trying to use it to orchestrate a lynch.
Yanni: How is this post scummy? How is this link logical?
AsianInvasion: Look at all these others things that Burst has done that are scummy! That post looks a lot worse now, doesn't it? Also the link should be self-apparent.
I don't recall Yanni asking those questions, but you almost managed to mimic me convincingly there. (Needz moar big werds.)
You're overassuming how one-dimensional people are, even inexperienced players. It isn't necessary to have a master plan completely in place - it's not a long shot at all that a scum not following the thread closely can pop in and call they're buddy scum.
Yeah, I'm going to have to rethink this point, especially given the immense feeling of Bad Thing I got when Yanni snap-unvoted Burst following Wessel dropping his case on the same.
Also I don't think Burst believes that he has the capacity to lead a lynch on Yanni. You think that Burst believes he could lead such a lynch?
Lead =|= Contribute to. I expect people who actively want to see someone lynched to provide evidence to support their views. Those who don't are lazy and/or scum. To be more specific, while Burst may not be able to lead a lynch, he should at least by able to cite reasons and engage in dialogue as opposed to point fingers from afar.
My case lost some fangs, but the meat is still there.
@Drey - Please explain to me why Zas is more likely to be scum for his proposal than Ced is for supporting it since you didn't believe he (Ced) was kidding.
A more detailed response sometime soon, but that's the big obvious question.
the thing that's bugging me the most is his insistence for having content from everyone before contributing. if he honestly thinks that's valid play, then he's really awful.
Why do you insist that I am not contributing? MY FINAL "LOOSE T/S READS" WILL BE HALF DECENT WHEN MORE CONTENT IS POSTED FROM THOSE THAT LACK.
Well, your question implies you are suspicious this could be a scum post or do you want to deny that?
Then, yes. But his tone, no matter how wrong, has been consistent.
You justify your lack of content with the lack of content of others - seems like "Two wrongs make a right" to me.
Someone else tell me I lack content, please.
Note that you are not interested enough in actual content to directly refer to the people and make them talk. (s. b.)
Why the hell do I need to point fingers? Over time they will post more, and if they lack content I will ask for it.
On Niv: You may be right criticizing the terminology, you may be not - yet there is clearly an incidence that needs to be addressed.
And in context of you pointing out the "frustration" of Niv as possibly scummy and you using harsh as well as implicating language in your "explanation" you seem to make him look worse than "frustrated".
You belittle iLord's case - devaluing it without need of argument.
Maybe not an example of "ad hom" but certainly not a straight argumentative behavior.
No, I think him genuinely frustrated. I am not belitting iLord's case. I think him wrong. This is not belittling in any manner.
Misunderstanding between the two of us here - I'm commenting on the "lashing out against Niv" part here to contrast it with the "explanation" intent you provide.
Oh, I was being sarcastic to show how dumb I thought the idea. Actually I could admit that THAT was a lash out, because I thought the idea stupid and how I feel they are throwing mud at me.
This is not an explanation in my eyes. Please elaborate or point out the part I'm missing!
Honestly, if someone who does a PBPA on you asks you something, then "look up my posts" is like a straight refusal to answer.
Okay, well here is another straight refusal to answer- you missed it. #204, it's there in definites.
I am not opposed to hear the reasons behind your "loose reads" neither to you updating them and contrasting them with your current reads.
Neither am I, motivation pending. Drey caught my eye recently. I might reread him.
It's not about them knowing, but it is about you knowing and me knowing that you know.
And it is about your efforts to actually receive the content you apparently are waiting for. Hint: zero.
Just...ugh. Have patience man.
I rephrase: "Explain your conscious stepping on toes in #204 in a way I will understand"
1. Guns blazin'. 2. Run into the fight and get **** done. 3. ?????? 4. Explain your reasoning on everything in a truthful manner. (Profit!)
Give it a name!
We want to know what content you are taking credit for.
The wagons on me and AE. I am starting to think my definition of content is different from everyone elses.
If you could briefly explain your reads on three-five players, I would love to look at it.
Ced- town Gut feeling from how he has been handling things.
Niv- leaning town Niv's attacks on me have been consistent and seem genuine. What's holding me back is no idea how he plays.
AE- leaning scum for what I feel are forced attacks on me
Alpha- leaning town I like his posts- a good example of quality over quantity.
Burst- Neutral He has taken a rest after his wagon died down and it's making me suspicious
Others- Will need to reread
@Yanni: How do you feel about the fact that apparently AsianInvasion is in the business of defending you in this game?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Clan Is Dead.... Long Live The Izzet! Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner! Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
@Pale
Look I've already answered all this stuff you are asking me, but I will do it again to hopefully make you understand what I thought back there.
a)I didn't think Zaz was kidding back there, I still don't.
b)I believed Ced to be kidding about the oxygen stuff (I don't really think there's an oxygen elemental), but he didn't seem to be kidding about the massclaim, that's two different issues. Anyway is always better to clarify, before jumping to conclusions (I know I didn't do it with Zaz, but I wanted to end RVS) so I asked him to clarify. I was actually a bit surprised it didn't even cross his mind how bad that proposal was because he's a vet and all.
c)I don't believe the smiley in Zaz post was indicative of humor. It was a not-so-subtle way to make his proposal more innocuous than it really was and an easy way to backtrack after being attacked for it "hey guys I was kidding, lol,really, see the smile, I was just RVSing". That's the reason I asked about his experience, to determine if he was just smart scum trying to pass a Bad Idea already preparing a Way Out or noob town that just doesn't know any better.
Actually I don't also remember him confirming nor denying it, and he has totally submerged so he probably is scum trying to put it under the rug exactly the way scum would do. vote: Zaz
@DJC: I also don't remember you finally clarifying about that coaching stuff, don't think I forgot about that. What the hell you were talking about?
Please go reread again. If you still don't understand, reread yet again. After all that if you still believe on this, ask again so I can make fun of you.
Also you really need to stop believing everyone is against you.
About Noob players
I know I defended Burst with this reasoning too, but we are moving in circles with the "what he said was scummy but he could be just inexperienced town playing badly". The new trend is to completely ignore everything noob players say and lynch veterans only? If so I hope I'm still considered new. :xd:
stop using so many pronouns to describe players and **** like this won't happen.
@Yanni: How do you feel about the fact that apparently AsianInvasion is in the business of defending you in this game?
I feel leery about the fact that apparently you are in the business of misrepresenting me in this game. Yanni's early play was extremely scummy as I first noted, but I cleared him based on something I thought I read in Burstinatrix's now infamous "reread" post (that is, Burst all but claiming scum). I also reconsidered based on the simple fact that I probably overestimated Burst and/or Yanni's forethought as scum. Now his status is a little more up in the air. The worst point against him is still how he instantly unvoted Burst after Wessel did, but there are other significant points against him as well (despite what nine out of ten doctors in YanniLand may be recommending). All that said, I would much rather see Burst dead first, as I believe proving him scum will be good cause to leave Yanni alone (though I still wouldn't totally clear him).
Somehow this post got really convoluted, but I guess that's just how my thought processes are coming together right now.
'Fake' suggests the case is done with prior knowledge that it is wrong. Is this what you imply?
Fake suggests it is contrived. Just because something is fake doens't necessarily mean it's wrong, but that is usually the case. Not all these wagons can be wrong, or even fake for that matter, but they all give me that sort of feeling. I guess what I'm implying is that the people starting wagons are all making me devalue the actual wagon. This is not a indictment on the alignment of those folk, but just an overall gut feeling i'm encountering.
Who do you think comes out looking worse for it? And do you agree that Burst being scum clears Yanni?
I like my vote on Yanni still personally.
I don't clear people based on other peoples deaths. That's really dumb imo, and I"m not sure why it's becoming more and more practice.
Really I kinda think iLord might be the worse for it, but at the same time I feel like I've played other games with him where I think he's a bad wagon starter. It has been a while since I've played with him so I really should probably go back and read like kithkin mafia or something but it seems unlikely I'll actually do that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Official Moderator of The [Gutter]
Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
Fake suggests it is contrived. Just because something is fake doens't necessarily mean it's wrong, but that is usually the case. Not all these wagons can be wrong, or even fake for that matter, but they all give me that sort of feeling. I guess what I'm implying is that the people starting wagons are all making me devalue the actual wagon. This is not a indictment on the alignment of those folk, but just an overall gut feeling i'm encountering.
This is a load of crap. They're fake but they may not be wrong? The people starting the wagons have you devalue the wagon. But it doesn't mean their scum? So these wagons are artificial? So what purpose would a townie have to falsely accuse someone being scum? Are you just spouting off just to post?
I feel leery about the fact that apparently you are in the business of misrepresenting me in this game.
Would you like a wall of quotes that demonstrate you are advocating a Burst lynch over a Yanni lynch, after Burst says Yanni seems different in this game?
I'd say I'm representing you just fine.
Yanni's early play was extremely scummy as I first noted, but I cleared him based on something I thought I read in Burstinatrix's now infamous "reread" post (that is, Burst all but claiming scum).
That was a weak/nonexistent point. Hence why your defense of Yanni sticks out so much.
I also reconsidered based on the simple fact that I probably overestimated Burst and/or Yanni's forethought as scum. Now his status is a little more up in the air.
Are you backtracking now?
The worst point against him is still how he instantly unvoted Burst after Wessel did, but there are other significant points against him as well (despite what nine out of ten doctors in YanniLand may be recommending).
Suddenly you're not defending him any more? There are "worst points" again?
All that said, I would much rather see Burst dead first, as I believe proving him scum will be good cause to leave Yanni alone (though I still wouldn't totally clear him).
Your qualifier is showing.
Somehow this post got really convoluted, but I guess that's just how my thought processes are coming together right now.
Unvote; Vote AsianInvasion although I would vote either of him or Yanni at the moment. If I was a Day Vig, one of them would be dead as well.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Clan Is Dead.... Long Live The Izzet! Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner! Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
Also: @kpaca: which wagons are bothering you, and which players are driving that feeling?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Clan Is Dead.... Long Live The Izzet! Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner! Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
Also just so I'm clear early on, does you saying that you want to vote AI or Yanni mean you aren't going to participate in any discussion about anything else?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Official Moderator of The [Gutter]
Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
Also just so I'm clear early on, does you saying that you want to vote AI or Yanni mean you aren't going to participate in any discussion about anything else?
Given that I sincerely think they're scum, I'll be more likely to talk about that.
Something specifically you wanted to discuss?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Clan Is Dead.... Long Live The Izzet! Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner! Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
I don't clear people based on other peoples deaths. That's really dumb imo, and I"m not sure why it's becoming more and more practice.
This. I think it's stupid, and a death is more likely to reflect NEGATIVELY on another player, rather than positively.
The only legitimate reason I can see for a player's death clearing another player, is if that player was Mafia, and the other player is claiming to have shot him.
Scums don't tend to do that.
-------------------------------
On an unrelated note, Artifice is taking a stroll down the long, narrow, dark, tunnel vision road.
Having never played with him before, I have to ask, does he always do that, or is it just his scum meta?
On an unrelated note, Artifice is taking a stroll down the long, narrow, dark, tunnel vision road.
Having never played with him before, I have to ask, does he always do that, or is it just his scum meta?
Excuse me?
No. I've found AI to be defending Yanni based on a completely lame case and Yanni does read different in this game than my recent experiences with him. Just because I've zero'd in on atwo players doesn't mean:
A) I'm scum
B) I'm tunnel
C) I'm wrong.
Establish all of the above, and we'll talk. Otherwise, actually weigh in on what you think about those two players first (AI and Yanni) before skipping to me.
And if you're going to site my "scum meta" you should know it first. My only scum game was 300 Mafia, which I assume you haven't read since I didn't really tunnel there.
I've "tunneled" in WoW, NGE, Stick It (they never listened:facepalm:), Star Trek (got Dayvigged). I've come out of those tunnels as well, when it made sense to do so. All of those were town. So, please get out of my way while I hunt the scummy players.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Clan Is Dead.... Long Live The Izzet! Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner! Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
No. I've found AI to be defending Yanni based on a completely lame case and Yanni does read different in this game than my recent experiences with him. Just because I've zero'd in on atwo players doesn't mean:
A) I'm scum
B) I'm tunnel
C) I'm wrong.
Establish all of the above, and we'll talk. Otherwise, actually weigh in on what you think about those two players first (AI and Yanni) before skipping to me.
And if you're going to site my "scum meta" you should know it first. My only scum game was 300 Mafia, which I assume you haven't read since I didn't really tunnel there.
I've "tunneled" in WoW, NGE, Stick It (they never listened:facepalm:), Star Trek (got Dayvigged). I've come out of those tunnels as well, when it made sense to do so. All of those were town. So, please get out of my way while I hunt the scummy players.
Little bit defensive, there, buddy. Have I struck a nerve? It was just a simple question.
Given that I sincerely think they're scum, I'll be more likely to talk about that.
Something specifically you wanted to discuss?
No, but when the time comes that I do have something important to talk about I'd love your input. I actually do enjoy your input, it's just getting it that I seem to have a problem with some times.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Official Moderator of The [Gutter]
Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
Would you like a wall of quotes that demonstrate you are advocating a Burst lynch over a Yanni lynch, after Burst says Yanni seems different in this game?
Context is everything. At the time I was initially asked to appraise the two, I felt that Burstinatrix was definitely scum and that his post definitely cleared Yanni. Given some time to consider other options and see things from a more neutral perspective, I have determined that while Burstinatrix is still likely scum, Yanni is in no way cleared. So I'm trying to figure out where you're going with this.
Two of ZasZ234's most recent posts (starting here) are overall goodposting, and they are loudly suggesting to me that he is town. Glad to see him moving past his early game identification.
To give you somewhat of an answer, I don't have a solid enough read on anyone at this point to give you a scum list. I'm trying to reread as I can to catch stuff I didn't the first time around, but I wasn't in this game for a full week. That's hard to get quickly caught up on.
If I'm pointing FoS, it would be Kpaca for the original coaching issue that Drey just brought back up, and I'm starting to lean toward buying into the cases made against Brin by AE the more I read them. On top of that, I'm irritated with LC for being asked to chill with the "Idiot" thing and deciding to completely ignore it via snarky phrasing, and I'm interested in your post (#401) regarding Drey.
But I'm not feeling like I'm comfortable enough with what has hppened until now to vote anywhere.
--->DJ
I'm confused by your logic here. You seem to have a pretty good grasp on the game, citing cases against Brinatoo and AE, following LC's posts over a period of time, and recent DRey posts, but you couch that knowledge in terms like "not solid enough read" and "not comfortable enough" to place a vote anywhere.
It seems to me that you have more of an opinion than you are letting on, and in fact just don't want to put yourself out there too much. Which is not really speaking to a town mindset.
Rethinking my original "green" read on you. FoS: DJ Catchem
Unvote; Vote AsianInvasion although I would vote either of him or Yanni at the moment. If I was a Day Vig, one of them would be dead as well.
If you think AI and Yanni are both scum, as the second quote suggests, why would you ask that question to Yanni? What were you hoping to learn with that leading question?
Also, what is the scum motivation for AsianInvasion to defend assumed buddy Yanni when Yanni was under little to no pressure?
Zindabad
Apparently Burstinatrix was banned for being Nakamaura. Are you seeking a replacement for him
Trying to determine how this affects my read on Burst.
On one hand, technically Nakamura would be more experienced than we were all assuming Burst to be, which is not a point in his favor.
On the other hand, it may be prudent to get a feel for the pending replacement.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
Little bit defensive, there, buddy. Have I struck a nerve? It was just a simple question.
Realistic. And you failed to answer my question:
@Wrath_of_Dog: what do you think about the AsianI/Yanni/Now Banned Burst situation? Don't bother coming at me and echoing kpaca until you address or dismiss what I'm saying. kthx
If you think AI and Yanni are both scum, as the second quote suggests, why would you ask that question to Yanni? What were you hoping to learn with that leading question?
My best answer is not what I learned on his reply. He seemed to answer the question backwards. I still want Yanni to comment about how AsianI believed that one cleared the other upon flip. The leap of logic needs Yanni's input.
(BTW, forgot you were in this game! Can't use simple abreviations....)
Also, what is the scum motivation for AsianInvasion to defend assumed buddy Yanni when Yanni was under little to no pressure?
Springboard on the Burst lynch. Simple. The defense was secondary.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Clan Is Dead.... Long Live The Izzet! Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner! Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
I'm confused by your logic here. You seem to have a pretty good grasp on the game, citing cases against Brinatoo and AE, following LC's posts over a period of time, and recent DRey posts, but you couch that knowledge in terms like "not solid enough read" and "not comfortable enough" to place a vote anywhere.
It seems to me that you have more of an opinion than you are letting on, and in fact just don't want to put yourself out there too much. Which is not really speaking to a town mindset.
Rethinking my original "green" read on you. FoS: DJ Catchem
On the contrary...I feel like I don't have a good grasp on the game at all. My reads on AE and Brin are based on what I was able to grasp from my first read-through after coming back to the game Sunday; I don't feel comfortable enough that I understand either one to vote. Brin feels much more inflammatory and defensive overall, while I feel AE's posts seem well thought out (and the speed and intensity of the wagon there raises eyebrows), but I don't feel either case is pulling me to a vote. I missed a week of development here, and I'm finding it hard to not let myself be swayed by everything that's been said after the fact.
I'm feeling better about stuff happening while I'm here, which is why I'm keying in on LC stuff, and the Drey thing is related to my original interaction wih the game when it started,so it's really all I actually know. I'll also readily admit that the current Kpaca/Artifice back-and-forth is raising the static level for me through the roof, but I'll admit that a good part of this has to do with my discomfort with Kpaca overall. (Read that as "He's furstrated me to no end in multiple games, and I'm naturally equal parts suspicious and confused by him.")
Speaking of:
@Kpaca:
quote=Kpaca]That's good enough for me.
unvote, vote: AsianInvasion [/quote]
This went right over myhead. Why is this worth a vote?
Yeah, wow. I don't even know what to say. Not sure if I actually believe it or not.
Either way Burst is banned and can't participate, so Dancing Mad will be replacing in for him. Let's give him a warm welcome. Apologies in advance to Burst if he ends up getting unbanned but the game has to go on.
Also, Gigas has 48 hours from now to post or respond to his prod, otherwise he'll be replaced.
Yeah, wow. I don't even know what to say. Not sure if I actually believe it or not.
Either way Burst is banned and can't participate, so Dancing Mad will be replacing in for him. Let's give him a warm welcome. Apologies in advance to Burst if he ends up getting unbanned but the game has to go on.
Also, Gigas has 48 hours from now to post or respond to his prod, otherwise he'll be replaced.
If this ends up being another Derpsmith situation.
@Mod: votecount and "clock" count. *brain fuzzing as to what to call the mechanics of the game as I type*
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Clan Is Dead.... Long Live The Izzet! Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner! Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
@Mod: votecount and "clock" count. *brain fuzzing as to what to call the mechanics of the game as I type*
Whenever the Clock's position changes, you will all be notified immediately. (By immediately, I mean "right away", not "whenever I get around to posting a votecount.") It just so happened that last time it moved I was also posting a votecount.
@zindabad:
I noticed DRey unvoted after a votecount that had him not voting. Is the previous vote count correct in that regard? (Well, he unvotes again afterwards, but just making sure.)
I further have to remember now to look up who besides Brinatoo took a stab at voting AE (EBWOP: Yanni noted as next reread then Please feel free to point out anyone else, even though I eventually will reread everyone, I like the context sensitivity my current technique allows).
Saying a wagon is fake is not the same as me saying "you know this wagon is wrong 100% and I think you are scum".
I'm sorry if you don't see the difference.
So if fake does not equal wagon is wrong, how could there be anything right about it? The whole meaning of a fake wagon is to decieve. People starting these wagons are pretending that the wagoned player is scum.
I don't see the difference between fake not being anything but deceptive.
On the contrary...I feel like I don't have a good grasp on the game at all. My reads on AE and Brin are based on what I was able to grasp from my first read-through after coming back to the game Sunday; I don't feel comfortable enough that I understand either one to vote. Brin feels much more inflammatory and defensive overall, while I feel AE's posts seem well thought out (and the speed and intensity of the wagon there raises eyebrows), but I don't feel either case is pulling me to a vote. I missed a week of development here, and I'm finding it hard to not let myself be swayed by everything that's been said after the fact.
I'm feeling better about stuff happening while I'm here, which is why I'm keying in on LC stuff, and the Drey thing is related to my original interaction wih the game when it started,so it's really all I actually know. I'll also readily admit that the current Kpaca/Artifice back-and-forth is raising the static level for me through the roof, but I'll admit that a good part of this has to do with my discomfort with Kpaca overall. (Read that as "He's furstrated me to no end in multiple games, and I'm naturally equal parts suspicious and confused by him.")
This post is one massive fence-sit. You really need to put your opinions down for the record.
I'm still waiting for AsianInvasion to give me a good case why Yanni's posts would be thick with doublespeak in the first place.
As for the "why," I think the scum motivation would be apparent. Is what you're really looking for evidence of such? I suppose now would be a good time to revisit that train of thought, given the replacement situation. If you'd like, I'll flesh it out when I get a chunk of free time.
Add Wessel to my list of strong town reads. The way he asks questions seems entirely genuine.
The number of replacements in this game is getting rather out of hand. Although, the fact that more experienced players are replacing in for less experienced players is kinda cool. Welcome to all the new faces!
In the process of reading through; up to about post 150. I'll be reading off and on all day today and will hopefully finish up tonight and make a full catch-up post tomorrow.
Off the top of my head so far -- Liking DRey and Alpha for town, most interested in Niv and Yanni for scum.
This is just using the narrow interpretation of the word 'clear'. But if that would be so, I can't see why you would use the word 'tend'. As I said above, to 'clear' someone in the broader sense could also just mean you're more likely to believe that person to be town. You can't be 100% sure of anything unless you're a cop or similar PR. So, someone's death might well 'clear' (broader definition) someone else.
This does not mean, however, that I can immediately see the connection why Asian thinks Burst's death might clear Yanni.
There are always exceptions, like in the case of an SK killing a mafioso, and I heard something about a MafiaScum game where the Mafia nightkilled one of it's own team to set up a one-shot-vig claim. Hence, "tends", since there can always be exceptions.
And to clear someone means "beyond reasonable doubt". So no matter what else, it's a bad word to use.
There is ALWAYS reasonable doubt.
@Artifice - I already made my stance on Yanni clear.
I don't like how Asian is getting all butthurt about people not making proper attacks on him - He did the EXACT same thing as mafia in a game I don't remember the name of at the current time, but he was lynched Day One.
In fact, Unvote, Vote AsianInvasion.
And I already made my stance on Yanni-Burst clear. It's rubbish to clear someone based on someone else's death.
And you answered my question that was addressed to everyone in the thread except you about your tunnel-vision meta, in a super defensive manner. Clearly, you feel threatened by the point I made.
No, I don't take notes. What difference does it make?
I have established a trend of anti-town play. My experience with Burstinatrix is that, even when he isn't playing well as town, he is at least asking probing questions and doing something resembling scum-hunting. Even before the holidays, he made one self-admitted mudsling against iLord (who is incidentally one of my few strong town reads), then crumbled when called out by Wessel. This is scummy by any metric.
Inexperienced scum previously under scrutiny don't come out of holiday-lurk to weakly bus a buddy under minimal pressure. Even if scum-Yanni got town points for being attacked by scum, the fact that Burst got lynched for pushing such a weak wagon doesn't do their team any good (especially considering scum-Yanni is generally not subtle enough to survive to endgame, anyway).
I understood you; you don't understand me. In theory, they could both be lynchbait or Yanni could be scum. But because I've demonstrated that Burst is scum, neither can be true here.
No where did I say what he is accusing be of. I've also not fished for power roles or tried to flavor game. Drey was obviously trying to paint me as scummy in this post.
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
Did you miss the post where I linked all the scummy things Burstinatrix has done this game?
I do not agree with your view, due to the pattern I have noticed. Very little in the way of scum-hunting, a lot of fidgety, self-conscious play.
I made a bit of an over-generalization; some players (Cyouni is the example that comes first to mind due to personal experience in Basic #10) are extremely clever and manipulative, even in their first games as scum. These players can craft webs of WIFOM like you wouldn't believe and walk the other way with the game while you're stuck in the middle. Burst is not one of these players. If anything, he's gotten himself stuck in a trap of his own creation.
The entire tone of his "catch-up" post indicates disinterest in the game and a desire to push an easy lynch. I don't see effort, I don't see probing questions I associate with his town play, and I don't see a player who cares what happens to the town. I see scum.
I'm not sure this thought would have consciously crossed their minds as scum, but it's one of those icing-on-the-cake observations that, when added to an already strong case, just sweetens the deal. You may choose to disregard it as it's basely on a hypothetical (and impossible, given the situation we're in) scenario.
Seriously. Yanni's post feels like another strawman. Making a false accusation does not directly translate to not reading the thread; it could range anywhere from an innocent case of mistaken identity to deliberate smearing. You'd have to establish a trend of such behavior, and demonstrate how it lines up with displays of disinterest (such as Burst's), to prove that he's not reading.
Speaking of which, I forgot to comment on this Burst post in which he defends his statement re: reading the thread:
What? Did you read through the whole thread since this post, where you told us you wouldn't bother? Your story doesn't mesh.
This is the completely wrong way to go about this from a town perspective. Townies go after players they think are scum by analyzing their posts and trying to establish patterns of anti-town play. (Occasionally some fish just jump into your boat, eh vezokpiraka? ;)) Scum (ideally) try to mimic this strategy, but faking reads is easier said than done, so a lot of scum, especially inexperienced scum, end up /barning, buddying, or straight-up not reading, among other potential shortcuts. You managed to do all three in one post, while providing no original analysis of your own. You can't justify this as town play.
But those are also hallmarks of inexperienced players (read:
idiotswhatever euphemism for "idiots" I'm using today), and you aren't drawing the distinction by highlighting the scummy intentions behind these scummy actions.You seem to have some sense of Burst's town play vs. his scum play. Care to give examples to back up your analysis above?
So yeah, it does mesh with what he's saying, and you're kind of silly for using this as a point against him.
If you had to quote two parts of AE's posts that best illustrate why you feel like he's mudslinging intentionally, which would they be?
I'm trying to condense the argument here to the part that matters. Too much of it his devolved into whether or not he was being hypocritical and not enough exploring his mindset.
I disagree. There's an infinite amount of explanations for variance in behavior - you don't have any backbone at all unless you have both town and scum games that support your theory, and even then the correlation is usually not sufficient without a reasonable exploration of the player's mindset.
By my understanding, AE was concerned with the fact that Brinatoo was posting, but not contributing.
Not very strong, I know, but hypocrisy is hardly an indication of scum.
Liquid did a great job making a list.
I don't think Brinatoo not contributing is indicative of scum. The reason why the case against him loss so much steam is because people are fallaciously marking his antagonistic and non-contributing style as scum. Many more experienced players have correctly noted that this is not indicative of alignment, and so the case died. The sprouting point of my concern with him was his #169, but since then, the rest of his posts have just been engaged in idle argument from which it is mostly impossible to glean much with regards to alignment.
You know once upon a time this would have been a ridiculous query, but I've unfortunately found this to be an increasingly relevant concern:
In this case, why do you feel attempting to coast by the game without contributing indicative of scum?
If you could briefly explain your reads on three-five players, I would love to look at it.
Actually, it looks liked Zas is asking for a lot more >_>.
Funny how I felt that was the only thing worth noting.
Two interpretations here. Either AI is exaggerating how badly he wants Burst lynched to simulate townie determination, or AI is interested only in getting Burst lynched. Neither look good.
Also the Yanni link is poorly substantiated and too hastily drawn.
I think that this was a nice trap that kpaca set. AsianInvasion trying to fit in where he doesn't belong feels completely unnatural, like scum trying to use it to orchestrate a lynch.
Unvote, Vote AsianInvasion
Yanni: How is this post scummy? How is this link logical?
AsianInvasion: Look at all these others things that Burst has done that are scummy! That post looks a lot worse now, doesn't it? Also the link should be self-apparent.
You're overassuming how one-dimensional people are, even inexperienced players. It isn't necessary to have a master plan completely in place - it's not a long shot at all that a scum not following the thread closely can pop in and call they're buddy scum.
Also I don't think Burst believes that he has the capacity to lead a lynch on Yanni. You think that Burst believes he could lead such a lynch?
My Custom Set: Solescurio
I like my vote on Yanni still personally.
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Make. Fetch. Happen. Your. Own. Self.
Top three scum and town ASAP from you plskthx.
* Pale Mage checks his watch. He then sips his coffee and continues waiting for DRey.
@Pale
Look I've already answered all this stuff you are asking me, but I will do it again to hopefully make you understand what I thought back there.
a)I didn't think Zaz was kidding back there, I still don't.
b)I believed Ced to be kidding about the oxygen stuff (I don't really think there's an oxygen elemental), but he didn't seem to be kidding about the massclaim, that's two different issues. Anyway is always better to clarify, before jumping to conclusions (I know I didn't do it with Zaz, but I wanted to end RVS) so I asked him to clarify. I was actually a bit surprised it didn't even cross his mind how bad that proposal was because he's a vet and all.
c)I don't believe the smiley in Zaz post was indicative of humor. It was a not-so-subtle way to make his proposal more innocuous than it really was and an easy way to backtrack after being attacked for it "hey guys I was kidding, lol,really, see the smile, I was just RVSing". That's the reason I asked about his experience, to determine if he was just smart scum trying to pass a Bad Idea already preparing a Way Out or noob town that just doesn't know any better.
Actually I don't also remember him confirming nor denying it, and he has totally submerged so he probably is scum trying to put it under the rug exactly the way scum would do. vote: Zaz
@DJC: I also don't remember you finally clarifying about that coaching stuff, don't think I forgot about that. What the hell you were talking about?
Please go reread again. If you still don't understand, reread yet again. After all that if you still believe on this, ask again so I can make fun of you.
Also you really need to stop believing everyone is against you.
About Noob players
I know I defended Burst with this reasoning too, but we are moving in circles with the "what he said was scummy but he could be just inexperienced town playing badly". The new trend is to completely ignore everything noob players say and lynch veterans only? If so I hope I'm still considered new. :xd:
Mythic rarity is not destroying the game. People whine too much for no good reason. Magic is more popular than ever, so keep calm, brew some decks and play some damn cards.
I did a few times, actually. But once and for all:
I don't believe that Zasz would make such a heavy-handed coaching slip, so on the same coin I do not believe that an experienced player like kpaca would buy into something like this. He's since restated that he honestly does, and I've since cemented my position that he's up to something as a result.
Question for you...why the suddent interest in a long-dead issue? Is it just because my name popped back up? IIRC, you weren't interested back when this was happening - and kpaca was fingering you as Zasz's scum-buddy at the time. can you speak to that?
Thanks for that. I noted that I'm trying to re-read after being away for a week, said what I saw on AE and Brin in that same post you quoted , and you jump on this?
...
To give you somewhat of an answer, I don't have a solid enough read on anyone at this point to give you a scum list. I'm trying to reread as I can to catch stuff I didn't the first time around, but I wasn't in this game for a full week. That's hard to get quickly caught up on.
If I'm pointing FoS, it would be Kpaca for the original coaching issue that Drey just brought back up, and I'm starting to lean toward buying into the cases made against Brin by AE the more I read them. On top of that, I'm irritated with LC for being asked to chill with the "Idiot" thing and deciding to completely ignore it via snarky phrasing, and I'm interested in your post (#401) regarding Drey.
But I'm not feeling like I'm comfortable enough with what has hppened until now to vote anywhere.
--->DJ
To be fair, my only experience with Burstinatrix is 300 Mafia, where he was the town vig. However, I'd say his play is black and white between this game and that one.
Oh. I misread that post, and as a result, his motives, completely. Oops.
Well, it was based on the assumption that Burst had no intention on catching up posts he had missed since he became absent. Given that this is no longer a valid argument, everything I said seems to be void.
"Trap?" "Fit in?" You've lost me.
I don't recall Yanni asking those questions, but you almost managed to mimic me convincingly there. (Needz moar big werds.)
Yeah, I'm going to have to rethink this point, especially given the immense feeling of Bad Thing I got when Yanni snap-unvoted Burst following Wessel dropping his case on the same.
Lead =|= Contribute to. I expect people who actively want to see someone lynched to provide evidence to support their views. Those who don't are lazy and/or scum. To be more specific, while Burst may not be able to lead a lynch, he should at least by able to cite reasons and engage in dialogue as opposed to point fingers from afar.
My case lost some fangs, but the meat is still there.
A more detailed response sometime soon, but that's the big obvious question.
Why do you insist that I am not contributing? MY FINAL "LOOSE T/S READS" WILL BE HALF DECENT WHEN MORE CONTENT IS POSTED FROM THOSE THAT LACK.
Then, yes. But his tone, no matter how wrong, has been consistent.
Someone else tell me I lack content, please.
Why the hell do I need to point fingers? Over time they will post more, and if they lack content I will ask for it.
No, I think him genuinely frustrated. I am not belitting iLord's case. I think him wrong. This is not belittling in any manner.
Oh, I was being sarcastic to show how dumb I thought the idea. Actually I could admit that THAT was a lash out, because I thought the idea stupid and how I feel they are throwing mud at me.
Okay, well here is another straight refusal to answer- you missed it. #204, it's there in definites.
Neither am I, motivation pending. Drey caught my eye recently. I might reread him.
Just...ugh. Have patience man.
1. Guns blazin'. 2. Run into the fight and get **** done. 3. ?????? 4. Explain your reasoning on everything in a truthful manner. (Profit!)
The wagons on me and AE. I am starting to think my definition of content is different from everyone elses.
Ced- town Gut feeling from how he has been handling things.
Niv- leaning town Niv's attacks on me have been consistent and seem genuine. What's holding me back is no idea how he plays.
AE- leaning scum for what I feel are forced attacks on me
Alpha- leaning town I like his posts- a good example of quality over quantity.
Burst- Neutral He has taken a rest after his wagon died down and it's making me suspicious
Others- Will need to reread
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
stop using so many pronouns to describe players and **** like this won't happen.
It's weird because he's attacked me several times and I've struck down most of his attacks and he just keeps changing them.
it's suspicious
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
I feel leery about the fact that apparently you are in the business of misrepresenting me in this game. Yanni's early play was extremely scummy as I first noted, but I cleared him based on something I thought I read in Burstinatrix's now infamous "reread" post (that is, Burst all but claiming scum). I also reconsidered based on the simple fact that I probably overestimated Burst and/or Yanni's forethought as scum. Now his status is a little more up in the air. The worst point against him is still how he instantly unvoted Burst after Wessel did, but there are other significant points against him as well (despite what nine out of ten doctors in YanniLand may be recommending). All that said, I would much rather see Burst dead first, as I believe proving him scum will be good cause to leave Yanni alone (though I still wouldn't totally clear him).
Somehow this post got really convoluted, but I guess that's just how my thought processes are coming together right now.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Fake suggests it is contrived. Just because something is fake doens't necessarily mean it's wrong, but that is usually the case. Not all these wagons can be wrong, or even fake for that matter, but they all give me that sort of feeling. I guess what I'm implying is that the people starting wagons are all making me devalue the actual wagon. This is not a indictment on the alignment of those folk, but just an overall gut feeling i'm encountering.
I don't clear people based on other peoples deaths. That's really dumb imo, and I"m not sure why it's becoming more and more practice.
Really I kinda think iLord might be the worse for it, but at the same time I feel like I've played other games with him where I think he's a bad wagon starter. It has been a while since I've played with him so I really should probably go back and read like kithkin mafia or something but it seems unlikely I'll actually do that.
This is a load of crap. They're fake but they may not be wrong? The people starting the wagons have you devalue the wagon. But it doesn't mean their scum? So these wagons are artificial? So what purpose would a townie have to falsely accuse someone being scum? Are you just spouting off just to post?
They hate us cause they ain't us.
I'm sorry if you don't see the difference.
I'd say I'm representing you just fine.
That was a weak/nonexistent point. Hence why your defense of Yanni sticks out so much.
Are you backtracking now?
Suddenly you're not defending him any more? There are "worst points" again?
Your qualifier is showing.
Unvote; Vote AsianInvasion although I would vote either of him or Yanni at the moment. If I was a Day Vig, one of them would be dead as well.
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
All of them.
Something specifically you wanted to discuss?
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
The only legitimate reason I can see for a player's death clearing another player, is if that player was Mafia, and the other player is claiming to have shot him.
Scums don't tend to do that.
-------------------------------
On an unrelated note, Artifice is taking a stroll down the long, narrow, dark, tunnel vision road.
Having never played with him before, I have to ask, does he always do that, or is it just his scum meta?
No. I've found AI to be defending Yanni based on a completely lame case and Yanni does read different in this game than my recent experiences with him. Just because I've zero'd in on
atwo players doesn't mean:A) I'm scum
B) I'm tunnel
C) I'm wrong.
Establish all of the above, and we'll talk. Otherwise, actually weigh in on what you think about those two players first (AI and Yanni) before skipping to me.
And if you're going to site my "scum meta" you should know it first. My only scum game was 300 Mafia, which I assume you haven't read since I didn't really tunnel there.
I've "tunneled" in WoW, NGE, Stick It (they never listened:facepalm:), Star Trek (got Dayvigged). I've come out of those tunnels as well, when it made sense to do so. All of those were town. So, please get out of my way while I hunt the scummy players.
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
No, but when the time comes that I do have something important to talk about I'd love your input. I actually do enjoy your input, it's just getting it that I seem to have a problem with some times.
He's kinda like a Cyan/Az hybrid, minus knowing what he's talking about as much. So he isn't really being that defensive when you consider that.
LC's case
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
Apparently Burstinatrix was banned for being Nakamaura. Are you seeking a replacement for him
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
Context is everything. At the time I was initially asked to appraise the two, I felt that Burstinatrix was definitely scum and that his post definitely cleared Yanni. Given some time to consider other options and see things from a more neutral perspective, I have determined that while Burstinatrix is still likely scum, Yanni is in no way cleared. So I'm trying to figure out where you're going with this.
You say backtracking, I say reassessing. A null tell, given I wouldn't push an obviously illogical case as town or scum.
You can be as scummy as the day is long and be cleared by a dead cop. Context is everything.
Wrath_of_DoG already beat me to the tunnel vision quip.
Be careful what you wish for.
oh man why are we still playing we should just have LC unilaterally lynch everyone **** yeah mafia
unvote, vote: AsianInvasion
I'm confused by your logic here. You seem to have a pretty good grasp on the game, citing cases against Brinatoo and AE, following LC's posts over a period of time, and recent DRey posts, but you couch that knowledge in terms like "not solid enough read" and "not comfortable enough" to place a vote anywhere.
It seems to me that you have more of an opinion than you are letting on, and in fact just don't want to put yourself out there too much. Which is not really speaking to a town mindset.
Rethinking my original "green" read on you. FoS: DJ Catchem
If you think AI and Yanni are both scum, as the second quote suggests, why would you ask that question to Yanni? What were you hoping to learn with that leading question?
Also, what is the scum motivation for AsianInvasion to defend assumed buddy Yanni when Yanni was under little to no pressure?
Trying to determine how this affects my read on Burst.
On one hand, technically Nakamura would be more experienced than we were all assuming Burst to be, which is not a point in his favor.
On the other hand, it may be prudent to get a feel for the pending replacement.
@Wrath_of_Dog: what do you think about the AsianI/Yanni/Now Banned Burst situation? Don't bother coming at me and echoing kpaca until you address or dismiss what I'm saying. kthx
As I've mentioned elsewhere, I hate the internet.
My best answer is not what I learned on his reply. He seemed to answer the question backwards.
(BTW, forgot you were in this game! Can't use simple abreviations....)
Springboard on the Burst lynch. Simple. The defense was secondary.
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
On the contrary...I feel like I don't have a good grasp on the game at all. My reads on AE and Brin are based on what I was able to grasp from my first read-through after coming back to the game Sunday; I don't feel comfortable enough that I understand either one to vote. Brin feels much more inflammatory and defensive overall, while I feel AE's posts seem well thought out (and the speed and intensity of the wagon there raises eyebrows), but I don't feel either case is pulling me to a vote. I missed a week of development here, and I'm finding it hard to not let myself be swayed by everything that's been said after the fact.
I'm feeling better about stuff happening while I'm here, which is why I'm keying in on LC stuff, and the Drey thing is related to my original interaction wih the game when it started,so it's really all I actually know. I'll also readily admit that the current Kpaca/Artifice back-and-forth is raising the static level for me through the roof, but I'll admit that a good part of this has to do with my discomfort with Kpaca overall. (Read that as "He's furstrated me to no end in multiple games, and I'm naturally equal parts suspicious and confused by him.")
Speaking of:
@Kpaca:
quote=Kpaca]That's good enough for me.
unvote, vote: AsianInvasion [/quote]
This went right over myhead. Why is this worth a vote?
@Zindabad:
WTH...
--->DJ
That should read:
@Kpaca:
This went right over myhead. Why is this worth a vote?
Sorry.
--->DJ
Either way Burst is banned and can't participate, so Dancing Mad will be replacing in for him. Let's give him a warm welcome. Apologies in advance to Burst if he ends up getting unbanned but the game has to go on.
Also, Gigas has 48 hours from now to post or respond to his prod, otherwise he'll be replaced.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
@Mod: votecount and "clock" count. *brain fuzzing as to what to call the mechanics of the game as I type*
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
AE (3) - ced, Brinatoo, Yanni
Brinatoo (3) - Niv, AE, ZasZ
AsianInvasion (3) - iLord, Art, kpaca
Burst (2) - Alpha, Asian
ZasZ (2) - pinkfloyd, DRey
Wessel (1) - vezok
Liquidity Crisis (1) - Gigas
Yanni (1) - WoD
With 21 alive, it's 11 to lynch.
The Aeon Clock stands at 4.
Whenever the Clock's position changes, you will all be notified immediately. (By immediately, I mean "right away", not "whenever I get around to posting a votecount.") It just so happened that last time it moved I was also posting a votecount.
Yes. He unvoted twice.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
--->DJ
Which he unvoted from?
Here.
So if fake does not equal wagon is wrong, how could there be anything right about it? The whole meaning of a fake wagon is to decieve. People starting these wagons are pretending that the wagoned player is scum.
I don't see the difference between fake not being anything but deceptive.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
This post is one massive fence-sit. You really need to put your opinions down for the record.
What was I supposed to say? "Nuh-uh, you wrong!" I respond to direct questions, not unsubstantiated guesswork.
As for the "why," I think the scum motivation would be apparent. Is what you're really looking for evidence of such? I suppose now would be a good time to revisit that train of thought, given the replacement situation. If you'd like, I'll flesh it out when I get a chunk of free time.
Add Wessel to my list of strong town reads. The way he asks questions seems entirely genuine.
The number of replacements in this game is getting rather out of hand. Although, the fact that more experienced players are replacing in for less experienced players is kinda cool. Welcome to all the new faces!
In the process of reading through; up to about post 150. I'll be reading off and on all day today and will hopefully finish up tonight and make a full catch-up post tomorrow.
Off the top of my head so far -- Liking DRey and Alpha for town, most interested in Niv and Yanni for scum.
Stay tuned.
And to clear someone means "beyond reasonable doubt". So no matter what else, it's a bad word to use.
There is ALWAYS reasonable doubt.
@Artifice - I already made my stance on Yanni clear.
I don't like how Asian is getting all butthurt about people not making proper attacks on him - He did the EXACT same thing as mafia in a game I don't remember the name of at the current time, but he was lynched Day One.
In fact, Unvote, Vote AsianInvasion.
And I already made my stance on Yanni-Burst clear. It's rubbish to clear someone based on someone else's death.
And you answered my question that was addressed to everyone in the thread except you about your tunnel-vision meta, in a super defensive manner. Clearly, you feel threatened by the point I made.
Maybe I was right guys
I'll probably look over your content later about me Zas, but its strange you took this long to vote me.