Been running 2 copies of Dimir Charm in my Esper control list. List is similar to Shaheen Soorani's current build.
Reasons I think it is great in this deck:
Allows you to set up Terminus with the dig function, stacking the top of your deck. Also if you are running flashback spells, they can help negate the downside. Snapcaster works for this as well/
Can kill problem creatures that Azorious charm has trouble with, i.e. Mana Dorks, Gyre Sage, and most importantly; Silverblade Paladin. (Still running 3 Azorius charm)
Can blank your opponents top deck if you are racing with mill, usually allowing you to put a land on top during a crucial turn.
Counters Bonfire of the Damned, which can wreck your tokens. Also going to counter Planar Cleansing, which after the protour we are probably going to see at FNM due to people thinking its the best version of control.
Stopping a farseek on the play is pretty good at buying time against midrange 4 drop decks.
Ive been playing it in my Esper list. Here's some of what I've used it for:
Killing 2 power guys: silverblade paladins, 2 power red dudes about to recieve rancors (especially bte's), thalia, mana dorks in ramp decks, champions of the parish in response to triggers
Countering sorceries: Rakdos's Return, Bonfire of the Damned, Unburial Rites
Topdeck mode: a few times on myself hoping to set up a miracle. Did so once, mostly desperation, mostly wasted time.
Opponent's topdeck mode: Was great in a mirror match. Was able to 3 times ensure my opponent drew dead when I had a strong board position (drownyard advantage, walker advantage, etc). Each time I was able to put a relatively harmless card on top (usually lands, once a think twice was the worst of the 3 cards I saw) and bin relevant things: tamiyo, drownyards, snapcaster mages, etc.
I currently run 2 and am pretty happy with that breakdown. Its also another way besides drownyard to bin a highly relevant card you just azorius charmed if you have no other choice. Its not great against Jund (they have a lot of 3 power guys), though they do have rakdos' returns and bonfires usually.
It makes me unhappy with ultimate price: Price fails to hit too many of the things dimir charm doesnt due to the multicolor restriction.
This card is amazing I think. In the game day I used it several times to kill silverblades and mana dorks. Also it is amazing with tamiyo if you can get an emblem
the hard part for myself is what to cut for Dimir Charm. I think in control having more versitlity like it offers is great. I dont like Cutting ultimate prices and Devour flesh for late Hellrider's and Dragons.
the hard part for myself is what to cut for Dimir Charm. I think in control having more versitlity like it offers is great. I dont like Cutting ultimate prices and Devour flesh for late Hellrider's and Dragons.
Exactly what I was thinking.
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I took starks list and cut dramatic rescue and a think twice. If you are adding dimir charms, its probably because you need more cards that function as early removal (since its main advantage is that it's early removal that can be relevant in some other situations with its other modes). In that situation, think twice is probably the worst card in your deck.
Dramatic rescue I was never that impressed by. Bounce a guy, gain 2 life is only a good play on a snapcaster mage, if you're avoding actual lethal damage, etc. There are some niche situations (bounce resto angel in response to reckoner damage trigger pointed at her) but I didn't like the card that much.
If you are gearing for a very aggro-heavy meta then think twice is the weakest card in the deck (azo charm has dual function, think twice primarily exists to miracle things in an aggro matchup and you rarely get to cast and flash back all your think twices in that kind of game).
I took starks list and cut dramatic rescue and a think twice. If you are adding dimir charms, its probably because you need more cards that function as early removal (since its main advantage is that it's early removal that can be relevant in some other situations with its other modes). In that situation, think twice is probably the worst card in your deck.
Think twice is never bad in any early-mid game situation.
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
Think twice is never bad in any early-mid game situation.
Drawing is not what you want to be doing early game against fast aggro though. They can quickly overwhelm the board without heavy early game interaction, and I think that is what he was referring to.
It does seem very powerful, early game it takes out cheap aggro creatures, if you ahve your op in top deck mode it's a timewalk, occasionaly it counters stuff, occasionally it digs, it's an everything card, it's great, but I don't think a list can fit 4.
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I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
* Kill creatures. In my aggro-heavy metagame, this is probably the most important mode. This kills just about anything they play on turn two, with rare exceptions (Boar, Flunkies .. but hey, Ultimate Price!). In response to Rancor or Madcap Skills, or on a Silverblade Paladin in the middle of combat, it can be huge. Can also stop a Restoration Angel from blinking an Augur.
* Mill finisher. With two Drownyards out, once they get to 14 cards, you set up a land on top, mill them 6, mill them 6 again, and good game.
* Counter stuff? I haven't actually used this mode yet, but it seems like there's enough stuff to counter that it's worth it. Most relevant targets, I think, are Unburial Rites, Rakdos's Return, and Planar Cleansing. I run 2 Charms main deck, and having another couple of counterspells against that kind of annoying crap seems pretty good.
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Level 2 Judge
Currently playing:
Standard: Superfriends!
Legacy: Nic Fit / Pod
Pauper: Delvar; Tron; Flicker Stuff
Commander: Riku ("Some weird doubple spell thing happened"); Keranos ("I did a Gatherer search for 'random' and 'flip a coin.'"); Superfriends!
* Counter stuff? I haven't actually used this mode yet, but it seems like there's enough stuff to counter that it's worth it. Most relevant targets, I think, are Unburial Rites, Rakdos's Return, and Planar Cleansing. I run 2 Charms main deck, and having another couple of counterspells against that kind of annoying crap seems pretty good.
I once had a sorin at 6 out against his garruk and thragtusk. He went to pillar of flame him down to 4 with his last mana, i countered it with dimir charm, ulted sorin, and went on to win the game off of his garruk.
It seems the counter ability is best against jund and in very few niche situations, but i see it as mainly a bonus to the already versatile card. Its basically an early removal spell, that doubles as a draw blank for your opponent when hes topdecking, along with a 2 card mill, or it could ensure you hit your 4th land for a verdict, if things have gotten that dire.
I run it as a 1 of in my version that uses sorin+souls as an alt wincon, and its been performing very well. its never sat as a dead card in my hand, and i feel its worth trying out in any list to see if its worth a slot.
Yeah, I had good luck with it again last night. At least 1-2 games, it was both the first and last spell I cast: first to kill some two-drop, and lastly flashed back for the mill kill. I found it oddly poetic/aesthetic.
And I was able to use it to counter a flashed-back Unburial Rites, and that felt pretty good.
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Level 2 Judge
Currently playing:
Standard: Superfriends!
Legacy: Nic Fit / Pod
Pauper: Delvar; Tron; Flicker Stuff
Commander: Riku ("Some weird doubple spell thing happened"); Keranos ("I did a Gatherer search for 'random' and 'flip a coin.'"); Superfriends!
I want to like the card, so I threw two into my deck last Friday for testing. Unfortunately, it just never worked out for me. When I had it in my hand they're were no valid targets on the board nor a sorcery cast on me. I may try it again as it seemed like I always top decked it at the most inconvenient times.
The only use I got out of it that night was utilizing the digging ability to search for a desperately needed revelation.
I've found it's best in an aggro heavy meta. It has lots of targets that way and is versatile enough to be MB. In matchups where it's bad it's an easy option to board out. I MB 2 but about 50% of the local meta is hyper aggro.
I'll be honest, I haven't played with it too too much, just some FNM and playtesting in a Wafo-tapa-esque build (minimal planeswalkers/creatures, relying heavily on drownyard) and the card seems really bad.
The marginal value you get out of it for it's "impulse" ability, targetting either yourself or your opponent, is never worth the card. You're better off actually having the card you want to impulse into, which is probably a card you want to buy you some time to drownyard 1 more time, a better version of the "mill" aspect.
The counterspell is exceptionally narrow, as there aren't a whole lot of sorceries we're looking to counter. Rakdos' Return is chief among them, and by the time that card is actually worth countering, Dissipate is able to do so just fine, but also has the benefit of countering basically anything else. It's also WAY better at countering both Lingering Souls and Unburial Rites, as it "counters" them twice by preventing the flashback. I'd never feel happy spending an entire card to deal with half a card, especially in this deck.
The kill spell is also exceptionally narrow. Think of all the 2 power creatures you need to kill with spot removal and can't take a hit or two from to just wrath. Again, you're throwing away cards you don't necessarily need to. The list is limited to really just mana dorks and Deathrite Shamans, and realistically you could just run a Devour Flesh in its place and deal with a plethora of other things as well.
So by trading off the versatility of doing one thing as well as you can (either countering a spell or killing a creature), you gain the versatility of doing both so poorly you can hardly do either. In my experience, I've been better served metagaming that spot to either a real counterspell or a real piece of removal and just playing tighter in general.
Dimir Charm is also excellent insurance against Rakdos's Return and Huntmaster, making it incredibly crucial against Jund.
I agree with this--the card is very good against Jund as they have a ton of relevant sorceries to counter (most notably Return, but several others as well) and it kills at least Huntmaster, with a handful of other creatures as potential targets (if not particularly good ones).
That said, I'm not a huge fan of the card. One-of at most, maybe even better in the board than in the maindeck. It has two modes that can be worth a card, both of which are dead at times, usually the counter. As LSV said in his set review, in a meta with a ton of sorceries, this is an effective card. Right now, Jund is the only deck that plays many sorceries that are counterable and don't have flashback.
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Reasons I think it is great in this deck:
Allows you to set up Terminus with the dig function, stacking the top of your deck. Also if you are running flashback spells, they can help negate the downside. Snapcaster works for this as well/
Can kill problem creatures that Azorious charm has trouble with, i.e. Mana Dorks, Gyre Sage, and most importantly; Silverblade Paladin. (Still running 3 Azorius charm)
Can blank your opponents top deck if you are racing with mill, usually allowing you to put a land on top during a crucial turn.
Counters Bonfire of the Damned, which can wreck your tokens. Also going to counter Planar Cleansing, which after the protour we are probably going to see at FNM due to people thinking its the best version of control.
Stopping a farseek on the play is pretty good at buying time against midrange 4 drop decks.
Killing 2 power guys: silverblade paladins, 2 power red dudes about to recieve rancors (especially bte's), thalia, mana dorks in ramp decks, champions of the parish in response to triggers
Countering sorceries: Rakdos's Return, Bonfire of the Damned, Unburial Rites
Topdeck mode: a few times on myself hoping to set up a miracle. Did so once, mostly desperation, mostly wasted time.
Opponent's topdeck mode: Was great in a mirror match. Was able to 3 times ensure my opponent drew dead when I had a strong board position (drownyard advantage, walker advantage, etc). Each time I was able to put a relatively harmless card on top (usually lands, once a think twice was the worst of the 3 cards I saw) and bin relevant things: tamiyo, drownyards, snapcaster mages, etc.
I currently run 2 and am pretty happy with that breakdown. Its also another way besides drownyard to bin a highly relevant card you just azorius charmed if you have no other choice. Its not great against Jund (they have a lot of 3 power guys), though they do have rakdos' returns and bonfires usually.
It makes me unhappy with ultimate price: Price fails to hit too many of the things dimir charm doesnt due to the multicolor restriction.
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Exactly what I was thinking.
I took starks list and cut dramatic rescue and a think twice. If you are adding dimir charms, its probably because you need more cards that function as early removal (since its main advantage is that it's early removal that can be relevant in some other situations with its other modes). In that situation, think twice is probably the worst card in your deck.
Dramatic rescue I was never that impressed by. Bounce a guy, gain 2 life is only a good play on a snapcaster mage, if you're avoding actual lethal damage, etc. There are some niche situations (bounce resto angel in response to reckoner damage trigger pointed at her) but I didn't like the card that much.
If you are gearing for a very aggro-heavy meta then think twice is the weakest card in the deck (azo charm has dual function, think twice primarily exists to miracle things in an aggro matchup and you rarely get to cast and flash back all your think twices in that kind of game).
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Think twice is never bad in any early-mid game situation.
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Drawing is not what you want to be doing early game against fast aggro though. They can quickly overwhelm the board without heavy early game interaction, and I think that is what he was referring to.
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* Kill creatures. In my aggro-heavy metagame, this is probably the most important mode. This kills just about anything they play on turn two, with rare exceptions (Boar, Flunkies .. but hey, Ultimate Price!). In response to Rancor or Madcap Skills, or on a Silverblade Paladin in the middle of combat, it can be huge. Can also stop a Restoration Angel from blinking an Augur.
* Mill finisher. With two Drownyards out, once they get to 14 cards, you set up a land on top, mill them 6, mill them 6 again, and good game.
* Counter stuff? I haven't actually used this mode yet, but it seems like there's enough stuff to counter that it's worth it. Most relevant targets, I think, are Unburial Rites, Rakdos's Return, and Planar Cleansing. I run 2 Charms main deck, and having another couple of counterspells against that kind of annoying crap seems pretty good.
Currently playing:
Standard: Superfriends!
Legacy: Nic Fit / Pod
Pauper: Delvar; Tron; Flicker Stuff
Commander: Riku ("Some weird doubple spell thing happened"); Keranos ("I did a Gatherer search for 'random' and 'flip a coin.'"); Superfriends!
I once had a sorin at 6 out against his garruk and thragtusk. He went to pillar of flame him down to 4 with his last mana, i countered it with dimir charm, ulted sorin, and went on to win the game off of his garruk.
It seems the counter ability is best against jund and in very few niche situations, but i see it as mainly a bonus to the already versatile card. Its basically an early removal spell, that doubles as a draw blank for your opponent when hes topdecking, along with a 2 card mill, or it could ensure you hit your 4th land for a verdict, if things have gotten that dire.
I run it as a 1 of in my version that uses sorin+souls as an alt wincon, and its been performing very well. its never sat as a dead card in my hand, and i feel its worth trying out in any list to see if its worth a slot.
Yeah, I had good luck with it again last night. At least 1-2 games, it was both the first and last spell I cast: first to kill some two-drop, and lastly flashed back for the mill kill. I found it oddly poetic/aesthetic.
And I was able to use it to counter a flashed-back Unburial Rites, and that felt pretty good.
Currently playing:
Standard: Superfriends!
Legacy: Nic Fit / Pod
Pauper: Delvar; Tron; Flicker Stuff
Commander: Riku ("Some weird doubple spell thing happened"); Keranos ("I did a Gatherer search for 'random' and 'flip a coin.'"); Superfriends!
The only use I got out of it that night was utilizing the digging ability to search for a desperately needed revelation.
The marginal value you get out of it for it's "impulse" ability, targetting either yourself or your opponent, is never worth the card. You're better off actually having the card you want to impulse into, which is probably a card you want to buy you some time to drownyard 1 more time, a better version of the "mill" aspect.
The counterspell is exceptionally narrow, as there aren't a whole lot of sorceries we're looking to counter. Rakdos' Return is chief among them, and by the time that card is actually worth countering, Dissipate is able to do so just fine, but also has the benefit of countering basically anything else. It's also WAY better at countering both Lingering Souls and Unburial Rites, as it "counters" them twice by preventing the flashback. I'd never feel happy spending an entire card to deal with half a card, especially in this deck.
The kill spell is also exceptionally narrow. Think of all the 2 power creatures you need to kill with spot removal and can't take a hit or two from to just wrath. Again, you're throwing away cards you don't necessarily need to. The list is limited to really just mana dorks and Deathrite Shamans, and realistically you could just run a Devour Flesh in its place and deal with a plethora of other things as well.
So by trading off the versatility of doing one thing as well as you can (either countering a spell or killing a creature), you gain the versatility of doing both so poorly you can hardly do either. In my experience, I've been better served metagaming that spot to either a real counterspell or a real piece of removal and just playing tighter in general.
I agree with this--the card is very good against Jund as they have a ton of relevant sorceries to counter (most notably Return, but several others as well) and it kills at least Huntmaster, with a handful of other creatures as potential targets (if not particularly good ones).
That said, I'm not a huge fan of the card. One-of at most, maybe even better in the board than in the maindeck. It has two modes that can be worth a card, both of which are dead at times, usually the counter. As LSV said in his set review, in a meta with a ton of sorceries, this is an effective card. Right now, Jund is the only deck that plays many sorceries that are counterable and don't have flashback.