I came up with this deck a while ago and figured I'd post it. The deck has gone through a "process" and this is the most up to date version. Not much has changed though. The minute I threw this list together maybe 2-3 slots went through a transition? 10-6 on MWS I sometimes feel like I'm playing Hulk Flash. I was undefeated for a while until MWS decided to be a dick. I believe this may be the strongest Hexmage Depths list available.
The deck obviously is a Hexmage Dark Depths combo deck, but they are significant differences in my list. I chose to run a Gifts Ungiven shell and boy does it work.
For those of you who don't know the combo. It involves:
Basically this pile gets the combo. Dark Ritual helps accelerate into a Gifts. Thoughtseize, Unmask, Hymn are proactive choices to combat anything that might disrupt the combo. This is debatable too, since the deck might be able to run enough blue to support Force of Will which might prove to become a better option, but still needs testing.
The combo is broken in the right shell and I just think this might be it. One of my few losses with the deck was to Angel Stompy, which eventually compelled me to run Shizo, Death's Storehouse as a Gifts target. Random flyers can be quite annoying.
Pithing Needle also seemed to be tech against Engineered Explosives. The SB works great, I almost always had something worthwhile to side in versus alot of stuff.
The only real definite problem is Swords to Plowshares but my opponent usually does not have the time to draw into one before their dead or their hands hate them. We're playing Magical cards here luck is a factor and a one turn clock cuts down on that factor significantly. Nevertheless, there's always the option of FoW, Ponder upping the blue count, to allow you to counter such things.
UW Tempo also seems to be an issue with so many unintentionally maindecked hate. As well as bounce coming in from the SB. A large majority of the other matchups are winnable, so this may be an insignificant point.
Figured I'd post this list. This may be the most consistent Hexmage combo list out there. Just sleeve it up and try it out.
Well if you were to say that it would grab attention. It seems a fairly standard list (although without the benefits of crop rotation) so that kind of statement might get you a different type of attention to that which you are seeking.
Can you give an example of a standard list? I'm pretty sure that the list I presented is fairly unique. And doesn't the exclusion of Crop Rotation warrant recognition as something exclusive?
My list is incredibly strong. Probably stronger than any other version revolving around the combo.
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Top8: finishes with own creations:
7th Place out of 22 people with Enchantress Bloom @The Dragon's Lair in Springfield, MA. (11/19/06). (Legacy)
I'm also sorry for double posting. I'll also change the image links even though I'm unsure why Mods have a problem with it.
When you image link to something outside magiccards.info, photobucket, imageshack(etc), you are 'stealing' bandwidth from the site you are linking the image from.
MWS is never a measure of a deck's viability. It is so full of scrubs and noobs that any testing done there is about as good as no testing at all. Try winning some MTGO tournaments to actually test your deck. Furthermore, you can't even begin to judge or identify a "format-breaking deck" after 16 matches.
Cavius, please don't claim that your deck is going to change Legacy. Arrogance usually doesn't attract thoughtful responses.
Most of the choices in your deck seem terrible. The competitive deck most similar to DD, in my opinion, is Reanimator. Both decks use a few inexpensive cards to combo out a big creature. For that reason, I'm modeling my changes off of Team Left Field's Reanimator list.
Yes, I changed most of your main-board. I would change the mana base further - more fetches, fewer mana producers, and (5) fewer lands overall - but that requires testing, and there's no way that I'm spending time testing this deck.
Gifts Ungiven shenanigans are far too slow. Casting a 4 mana spell in a Legacy combo deck should mean "I win." Gifts Ungiven means, "I will inevitably win in a few turns, if there is no interaction on the part of my opponent." Not only that, but you include no protection for Gifts.
So I removed that package and added tutors and counterspells. Simple stuff. I took out most of the hand disruption because the combination of speed and counterspells is simply better.
Thank you for providing a 'standard' list, now we're able to draw comparisons. I have no interest in your changes whatsoever, but I appreciate the input nevertheless.
Based on my own list, I was thinking something along the lines of:
-3 Unmask
-4 Hymn
+3 Ponder
+4 Force of Will
I had those changes in mind for a while. It's even indicated in my OP if you read intently.
Cavius, Hexmage Depths has a real problem with Swords to Plowshares, as you well know. When I face the deck, I just keep one mana open and I am usually fine. But I do lose on occasion because my opponent is able to recur both the land and the creature with Grim Discovery and bring it at me again in a turn or two. Your version lacks that because you only have the one. Also, the ability to Crop Rotation into the combo at the opponent's End of Turn step is another really big deal. This is another area that you are giving up for your version.
The deck is not particularly well-suited for Legacy with some really good hosers appearing in most of the format as staples. Also, we already have to contend with lots of too-big creatures being cheated into play. So decks are going to be ready for Marit Lage. And the idea that adding a third color to the deck and actually reducing the advantages it does have seems like you did not do your homework. Perhaps if you went heavy into blue for countermagic and maybe even drop the green entirely there might be a way. There is something to be said for a deck that can bring a 20/20 into play continually.
If you are true to form, you are going to brush my considerable experience with this stuff aside as well as the other comments in this thread without even thinking them through. You have always had the creative spirit, Cavius. I just don't know why criticism hurts you so bad. Most original decks that anyone makes are going to suck. That's why I don't get too attached to any of my own. If you would be willing to go with what works and abandon what does not, you could find people more willing to pilot your stuff. Heck, I sure would. I love original decks that break conventions. But there is no way you can possibly expect anyone to take you seriously when you bring half thought-out and untested ideas and claim you have found the format breaker.
Cavius, Hexmage Depths has a real problem with Swords to Plowshares, as you well know. When I face the deck, I just keep one mana open and I am usually fine. But I do lose on occasion because my opponent is able to recur both the land and the creature with Grim Discovery and bring it at me again in a turn or two. Your version lacks that because you only have the one. Also, the ability to Crop Rotation into the combo at the opponent's End of Turn step is another really big deal. This is another area that you are giving up for your version.
The deck is not particularly well-suited for Legacy with some really good hosers appearing in most of the format as staples. Also, we already have to contend with lots of too-big creatures being cheated into play. So decks are going to be ready for Marit Lage. And the idea that adding a third color to the deck and actually reducing the advantages it does have seems like you did not do your homework. Perhaps if you went heavy into blue for countermagic and maybe even drop the green entirely there might be a way. There is something to be said for a deck that can bring a 20/20 into play continually.
If you are true to form, you are going to brush my considerable experience with this stuff aside as well as the other comments in this thread without even thinking them through. You have always had the creative spirit, Cavius. I just don't know why criticism hurts you so bad. Most original decks that anyone makes are going to suck. That's why I don't get too attached to any of my own. If you would be willing to go with what works and abandon what does not, you could find people more willing to pilot your stuff. Heck, I sure would. I love original decks that break conventions. But there is no way you can possibly expect anyone to take you seriously when you bring half thought-out and untested ideas and claim you have found the format breaker.
Finn, I appreciate your input. You're a person I really respect alot and I value your opinion more than most. Criticism I feel when 'felt at all angles' is respectable. But when someone bases their criticism off my reputation it's more annoying than anything else.
The deck is still in it's raw form yet closer than what you would think to being final.
My biggest debate over the card choices is ditching the proactive choice in discard and going with FoW/Ponder. I feel that that might be the right decision overall in dealing with the deck's underlying weakness where proactive effects fail to be effective. I'll keep you guys updated on the issue as well as possible inclusions of a reactive model of the deck itself. Any thoughts on this change feel free to express your concern.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Top8: finishes with own creations:
7th Place out of 22 people with Enchantress Bloom @The Dragon's Lair in Springfield, MA. (11/19/06). (Legacy)
Well, naturally testing will be the best indicator here. But I have a hunch that you are going to end up with a hybrid. Daze is out IMO, as you need to get to 4 mana to cast Gifts. So, perhaps Force and Duress will be your main disruption. The thing is - Duress is crappy against critters while Force of Will is just a bit weak there. You could include Thoughtseize (not Hymn to Tourach) to help you out against stuff like Merfolk, which could be a beating for you. If they are playing Stifle and bounce, you need something special to handle such a deck.
So what would your blue spells be if you include Ponder and Force of Will? Will you have enough?
So what would your blue spells be if you include Ponder and Force of Will? Will you have enough?
I don't think that 16 blue cards would be enough. Maybe Intuition and Fact or Fiction (especially the former) could replace Gifts Ungiven, allowing Daze to also be played. If you went up to 4 Grim Discovery, 1 or 2 Foil might be good, too. Crop Rotation is always excellent in this deck, and even better with 4 Grim Discovery. The cards I'm suggesting are also good with Regrowth, so you wouldn't have to change your deck that much. But I still think that you don't need so many lands.
Well, naturally testing will be the best indicator here. But I have a hunch that you are going to end up with a hybrid. Daze is out IMO, as you need to get to 4 mana to cast Gifts. So, perhaps Force and Duress will be your main disruption. The thing is - Duress is crappy against critters while Force of Will is just a bit weak there. You could include Thoughtseize (not Hymn to Tourach) to help you out against stuff like Merfolk, which could be a beating for you. If they are playing Stifle and bounce, you need something special to handle such a deck.
So what would your blue spells be if you include Ponder and Force of Will? Will you have enough?
.... I don't run Duress I run Thoughtseize..... Who said anything about Duress it's not even included in the OP.
Did you read the cards I would cut? Basically cutting Unmask and Hymn to Tourach for Ponder and Force of Will is what I'm interested in testing.
I agree with not running Daze. I feel that x4 Thoughtseize and x4 Force of Will should be sufficient.
I'm also considering running Jitte as an alternate win with Confidants and Hexmages (when i dont have the combo out) in addition to counteracting the loss of life that Bob happily provides.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Top8: finishes with own creations:
7th Place out of 22 people with Enchantress Bloom @The Dragon's Lair in Springfield, MA. (11/19/06). (Legacy)
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4 Dark Depths
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Island
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Brainstorm
1 Regrowth
1 Grim Discovery
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Unmask
2 Lotus Petal
4 Smother
4 Krosan Grip
4 Echoing Truth
3 Pithing Needle
The deck obviously is a Hexmage Dark Depths combo deck, but they are significant differences in my list. I chose to run a Gifts Ungiven shell and boy does it work.
For those of you who don't know the combo. It involves:
Gifts Ungiven + Dark Depths + Vampire Hexmage + Grim Discovery + Regrowth
Basically this pile gets the combo. Dark Ritual helps accelerate into a Gifts. Thoughtseize, Unmask, Hymn are proactive choices to combat anything that might disrupt the combo. This is debatable too, since the deck might be able to run enough blue to support Force of Will which might prove to become a better option, but still needs testing.
The combo is broken in the right shell and I just think this might be it. One of my few losses with the deck was to Angel Stompy, which eventually compelled me to run Shizo, Death's Storehouse as a Gifts target. Random flyers can be quite annoying.
Pithing Needle also seemed to be tech against Engineered Explosives. The SB works great, I almost always had something worthwhile to side in versus alot of stuff.
The only real definite problem is Swords to Plowshares but my opponent usually does not have the time to draw into one before their dead or their hands hate them. We're playing Magical cards here luck is a factor and a one turn clock cuts down on that factor significantly. Nevertheless, there's always the option of FoW, Ponder upping the blue count, to allow you to counter such things.
UW Tempo also seems to be an issue with so many unintentionally maindecked hate. As well as bounce coming in from the SB. A large majority of the other matchups are winnable, so this may be an insignificant point.
Figured I'd post this list. This may be the most consistent Hexmage combo list out there. Just sleeve it up and try it out.
7th Place out of 22 people with Enchantress Bloom @The Dragon's Lair in Springfield, MA. (11/19/06). (Legacy)
Please don't double post. Use the 'Edit' button should you find something you want to add. Thanks. C_c
7th Place out of 22 people with Enchantress Bloom @The Dragon's Lair in Springfield, MA. (11/19/06). (Legacy)
Can you give an example of a standard list? I'm pretty sure that the list I presented is fairly unique. And doesn't the exclusion of Crop Rotation warrant recognition as something exclusive?
My list is incredibly strong. Probably stronger than any other version revolving around the combo.
7th Place out of 22 people with Enchantress Bloom @The Dragon's Lair in Springfield, MA. (11/19/06). (Legacy)
Yes, I have three.
1) Doubleposting isn't allowed.
2) You're image leeching with the card pictures. Please use magiccards.info for card image links. Change that please.
3)
10-6 against MWS randoms a format breaking deck does not make.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
I'm also sorry for double posting. I'll also change the image links even though I'm unsure why Mods have a problem with it.
7th Place out of 22 people with Enchantress Bloom @The Dragon's Lair in Springfield, MA. (11/19/06). (Legacy)
You may want to edit that into your opening post then, to inform readers better.
When you image link to something outside magiccards.info, photobucket, imageshack(etc), you are 'stealing' bandwidth from the site you are linking the image from.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
you come off like a pretty big loser, maybe relax a bit
Most of the choices in your deck seem terrible. The competitive deck most similar to DD, in my opinion, is Reanimator. Both decks use a few inexpensive cards to combo out a big creature. For that reason, I'm modeling my changes off of Team Left Field's Reanimator list.
-4 Dark Ritual
-2 Lotus Petal
-4 Gifts Ungiven
-1 Regrowth
-1 Grim Discovery
-1 Eternal Witness
-4 Hymn to Tourach
-4 Thoughtseize
-3 Verdant Catacombs
-2 Swamp
+4 Ponder
+4 Daze
+4 Force of Will
+3 Mystical Tutor
+4 Crop Rotation
+2 Wordly Tutor
+4 Misty Rainforest
+1 Island
Yes, I changed most of your main-board. I would change the mana base further - more fetches, fewer mana producers, and (5) fewer lands overall - but that requires testing, and there's no way that I'm spending time testing this deck.
Gifts Ungiven shenanigans are far too slow. Casting a 4 mana spell in a Legacy combo deck should mean "I win." Gifts Ungiven means, "I will inevitably win in a few turns, if there is no interaction on the part of my opponent." Not only that, but you include no protection for Gifts.
So I removed that package and added tutors and counterspells. Simple stuff. I took out most of the hand disruption because the combination of speed and counterspells is simply better.
Reanimator is still a stronger deck, less vulnerable to the Legacy staples of Wasteland and Swords to Plowshares.
Do I care?
Thank you for providing a 'standard' list, now we're able to draw comparisons. I have no interest in your changes whatsoever, but I appreciate the input nevertheless.
Based on my own list, I was thinking something along the lines of:
-3 Unmask
-4 Hymn
+3 Ponder
+4 Force of Will
I had those changes in mind for a while. It's even indicated in my OP if you read intently.
7th Place out of 22 people with Enchantress Bloom @The Dragon's Lair in Springfield, MA. (11/19/06). (Legacy)
Ok, I guess it means that we may now stop posting in this topic.
The deck is not particularly well-suited for Legacy with some really good hosers appearing in most of the format as staples. Also, we already have to contend with lots of too-big creatures being cheated into play. So decks are going to be ready for Marit Lage. And the idea that adding a third color to the deck and actually reducing the advantages it does have seems like you did not do your homework. Perhaps if you went heavy into blue for countermagic and maybe even drop the green entirely there might be a way. There is something to be said for a deck that can bring a 20/20 into play continually.
If you are true to form, you are going to brush my considerable experience with this stuff aside as well as the other comments in this thread without even thinking them through. You have always had the creative spirit, Cavius. I just don't know why criticism hurts you so bad. Most original decks that anyone makes are going to suck. That's why I don't get too attached to any of my own. If you would be willing to go with what works and abandon what does not, you could find people more willing to pilot your stuff. Heck, I sure would. I love original decks that break conventions. But there is no way you can possibly expect anyone to take you seriously when you bring half thought-out and untested ideas and claim you have found the format breaker.
Finn, I appreciate your input. You're a person I really respect alot and I value your opinion more than most. Criticism I feel when 'felt at all angles' is respectable. But when someone bases their criticism off my reputation it's more annoying than anything else.
The deck is still in it's raw form yet closer than what you would think to being final.
My biggest debate over the card choices is ditching the proactive choice in discard and going with FoW/Ponder. I feel that that might be the right decision overall in dealing with the deck's underlying weakness where proactive effects fail to be effective. I'll keep you guys updated on the issue as well as possible inclusions of a reactive model of the deck itself. Any thoughts on this change feel free to express your concern.
7th Place out of 22 people with Enchantress Bloom @The Dragon's Lair in Springfield, MA. (11/19/06). (Legacy)
So what would your blue spells be if you include Ponder and Force of Will? Will you have enough?
I don't think that 16 blue cards would be enough. Maybe Intuition and Fact or Fiction (especially the former) could replace Gifts Ungiven, allowing Daze to also be played. If you went up to 4 Grim Discovery, 1 or 2 Foil might be good, too. Crop Rotation is always excellent in this deck, and even better with 4 Grim Discovery. The cards I'm suggesting are also good with Regrowth, so you wouldn't have to change your deck that much. But I still think that you don't need so many lands.
.... I don't run Duress I run Thoughtseize..... Who said anything about Duress it's not even included in the OP.
Did you read the cards I would cut? Basically cutting Unmask and Hymn to Tourach for Ponder and Force of Will is what I'm interested in testing.
I agree with not running Daze. I feel that x4 Thoughtseize and x4 Force of Will should be sufficient.
I'm also considering running Jitte as an alternate win with Confidants and Hexmages (when i dont have the combo out) in addition to counteracting the loss of life that Bob happily provides.
7th Place out of 22 people with Enchantress Bloom @The Dragon's Lair in Springfield, MA. (11/19/06). (Legacy)