I did some work in the past on a tribal set based on creature classes, and I've been wondering about reviving it. The biggest problem is that I have ten great classes, each one tied to two colors, but ten creature types is just too much for a tribal set. The original Ravnica structure (4-3-3) and the Return to Ravnica structure (5-5-10) can't work for me because I want to design the block with two sets to follow the new block sizes.
I tried picking five classes to focus on, but it's just not enough content for a full block and isn't fair to the color combinations that don't get a class. It also doesn't draft well because tribal blocks want to have tons of synergy in limited.
I considered doing two large sets but I feel like they would be boring unless they had something to give each set their own identity while still feeling like the same block.
The block takes place on a post-RTR Ravnica and focuses on groups that have started to crop up and gain power after the guilds have been balanced out by the Living Guildpact.
Does anyone have any ideas on how to make the 10 classes work in a two-set block?
You can try tricolor classes, though that will still favor certain color pairs more.
I've actually been looking at a similar tribal issue in my Crystals of Gerra set, inspired by Final Fantasy. In that set I currently have three combat classes (Knight, Monk, Warrior), two utility mage classes (Shamans and Wizards, natch), and Rogues, which fall somewhere between the former two in function. Knights are WB, Monks are RW, Warriors are RG, Rogues are UB, and Wizards and Shamans fall into the usual WUB and BRG camps as they were designed to. Between the six classes, all but three color pairs are represented: UR, GW, and GU. I've considered adding GWU Scouts to address the latter two, but UR may just have to settle with a non-tribal theme for limited.
Thing is, "X Matters" themes are no longer considered viable starting points for sets as Maro has indicated when talking about themes like "Enchantments Matter" or "Wedge block". That doesn't mean they won't still use "X matters" subthemes; they try to include at least a little tribal in every block, like Theros' Minotaur and Centaur tribal cards. Innistrad used tribal subthemes to represent the Humans and Monsters. But another Morningtide just may not be feasible simply because when the set is built on the idea of "X Matters" it tends to warp the mechanics to the point that the X is the only thing worth playing. It's one thing for a set to focus on a card type; "artifacts matter" proved versatile in Mirrodin though notably not all the mechanics actually cared about artifacts, and "land matters" proved quite successful in Zendikar.
Tribal however forces you to focus on subtypes of the second most complex card type, leading to a more linear design angle than general card types. I think the reason for this is that unlike a "card type matters" set like Mirrodin or Zendikar, a given tribe isn't automatically available to all colors, but neither do you have the flexibility of a proper multicolor set's factions to allow you to focus on more diverse mechanics. Furthermore, tribal imposes more creative restraints than card types do; you can have a variety of artifact or enchantment creatures or cards that care about land but Soldiers and Warriors aren't nearly so diverse, even when you include different races to provide basis for keywords like flying and trample.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Innistrad focused on only 5 tribes and it had enough content for a large and small set. so why won't it work for you? Having worked on tribal themes myself, I think 5 will provide more than enough content. Moreover more can be done with 5 race and 5 class, than 10 of either.
while people love the concept of tribes, blocks and sets should have other themes to provide diverse decks. so what other themes or ideas do you have for the block? Innistrad had gothic horror tropes. Even though the main tribes were allied colors, enemy color decks were also popular. Takeaway is cross-tribal and cross-color synergy.
another thing to think about is how to distribute mechanics. In all tribal blocks so far - Onslaught, Lorwyn, Innistrad - all had cross-tribal mechanics, rather than going the "guild" route and assign a mechanic for each tribe. Doesn't mean each tribe can't have their own theme or playstyle. Benefit is connections between sets are tighter if mechanics are shared between sets.
(note my tribe idea had 5 races and 6 classes. overlapping with other themes really made them easy to spit out cycles.)
Yes I understand the benefits and downsides of tribal sets. I would consider this set more of a 10 faction block, like Ravnica, but the central mechanical theme isn't multicolor. I know how I want to make creature-type-matters work, I just don't know how I want to fit my ten factions into my block.
@Lord of Atlantis
The reason I don't want to only use 5 is that I have very strong mechanical and flavor themes for 8-9 of the classes (1-2 are still in progress). It feels bad to have to cull factions that I think are really strong. However I think I may be forced to use only 5, because I can't think of any other way to make it work.
Which tribes do you have in mind, if you're willing to share? Knowing how they interact with one another will help us with providing advice.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I tried picking five classes to focus on, but it's just not enough content for a full block and isn't fair to the color combinations that don't get a class. It also doesn't draft well because tribal blocks want to have tons of synergy in limited.
I considered doing two large sets but I feel like they would be boring unless they had something to give each set their own identity while still feeling like the same block.
The block takes place on a post-RTR Ravnica and focuses on groups that have started to crop up and gain power after the guilds have been balanced out by the Living Guildpact.
Does anyone have any ideas on how to make the 10 classes work in a two-set block?
I've actually been looking at a similar tribal issue in my Crystals of Gerra set, inspired by Final Fantasy. In that set I currently have three combat classes (Knight, Monk, Warrior), two utility mage classes (Shamans and Wizards, natch), and Rogues, which fall somewhere between the former two in function. Knights are WB, Monks are RW, Warriors are RG, Rogues are UB, and Wizards and Shamans fall into the usual WUB and BRG camps as they were designed to. Between the six classes, all but three color pairs are represented: UR, GW, and GU. I've considered adding GWU Scouts to address the latter two, but UR may just have to settle with a non-tribal theme for limited.
Thing is, "X Matters" themes are no longer considered viable starting points for sets as Maro has indicated when talking about themes like "Enchantments Matter" or "Wedge block". That doesn't mean they won't still use "X matters" subthemes; they try to include at least a little tribal in every block, like Theros' Minotaur and Centaur tribal cards. Innistrad used tribal subthemes to represent the Humans and Monsters. But another Morningtide just may not be feasible simply because when the set is built on the idea of "X Matters" it tends to warp the mechanics to the point that the X is the only thing worth playing. It's one thing for a set to focus on a card type; "artifacts matter" proved versatile in Mirrodin though notably not all the mechanics actually cared about artifacts, and "land matters" proved quite successful in Zendikar.
Tribal however forces you to focus on subtypes of the second most complex card type, leading to a more linear design angle than general card types. I think the reason for this is that unlike a "card type matters" set like Mirrodin or Zendikar, a given tribe isn't automatically available to all colors, but neither do you have the flexibility of a proper multicolor set's factions to allow you to focus on more diverse mechanics. Furthermore, tribal imposes more creative restraints than card types do; you can have a variety of artifact or enchantment creatures or cards that care about land but Soldiers and Warriors aren't nearly so diverse, even when you include different races to provide basis for keywords like flying and trample.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
while people love the concept of tribes, blocks and sets should have other themes to provide diverse decks. so what other themes or ideas do you have for the block? Innistrad had gothic horror tropes. Even though the main tribes were allied colors, enemy color decks were also popular. Takeaway is cross-tribal and cross-color synergy.
another thing to think about is how to distribute mechanics. In all tribal blocks so far - Onslaught, Lorwyn, Innistrad - all had cross-tribal mechanics, rather than going the "guild" route and assign a mechanic for each tribe. Doesn't mean each tribe can't have their own theme or playstyle. Benefit is connections between sets are tighter if mechanics are shared between sets.
(note my tribe idea had 5 races and 6 classes. overlapping with other themes really made them easy to spit out cycles.)
........................
@Lord of Atlantis
The reason I don't want to only use 5 is that I have very strong mechanical and flavor themes for 8-9 of the classes (1-2 are still in progress). It feels bad to have to cull factions that I think are really strong. However I think I may be forced to use only 5, because I can't think of any other way to make it work.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.