Seems like we've kind of gone in a circle with Explore. If we want to cut down on text space, the original version is best, but the original is too limited in application. If we want the mechanic to be more applicable, we have to increase the text space. The more applicable version above definitely succeeds at dependably doing something beneficial and it's a lot more in line with my original intentions at least, but people have expressed fears that it would be too powerful to put on very many commons. So it looks like we're oscillating here without finding something practical and agreeable for everyone.
Here's a version that's more of a gamble:
Explore (Exile cards from the top of your library until you reveal a land card. Put that card into your hand. Until end of turn, you may play the rest of the cards exiled this way).
But one issue I see is that it is explicitly a red and green mechanic now. It's also slightly more wordy. And if you do have the mana to cast the rest of the exiled cards, it's actually more powerful. If you don't, it's a loss rather than a chance to cycle. It's still not something that seems like it could easily go on a common either.
I don't know, just brainstorming here.
I don't want to curse things, but a prior poster recently might have a valid point. We're 5 pages into this and still haven't come up with a single mechanic that is balanced and has practical design space at all rarities (let alone colors), and we are still mostly in the dark about the specific flavor we're working with. IMO, the legendary matters subtheme could also easily be scrapped until we come up with some real flavor to make legendary things about - important people, objects, and places. Which harkens back to agreeing on a solid story of sorts.
Then how about we focus on a broader topic at first: instead of the theme, what do we want the "feel" of the set to be?
As I said earlier:
The general feel and tone of the set I think should be more strange and expansive as opposed Zendikar's adventure survival world. I think we should commit to a clear premise of the set now, so what is everyone else's thoughts?
The logline for my suggestion then would be something like 'a world turned on it's head, filled with mystery, wonder and unbound imagination'.
When I think about mystery, unbound imagination... the main thing I can think about is change. Here are the "mechanics" that come in mind:
- face-down cards (not necessarily morph cards), but it might be a bit redundant with Tarkir ;
- colours changing, or types changing ;
- an Illusion theme. It might be a bit focused on Blue, but it could be possible to extend it to other colours.
I'm really sorry, but I won't be able to work on this for a little while... I'm having some personal problems and I really need some time to myself. You guys seem to be doing a great job, so please feel free to continue without me until I get back. Until then, thanks a lot, I really didn't think this project would gt anywhere, and I'm super glad I was wrong.
I'm fine with the DFC idea too All that remains is to find a nice flipping condition
We probably want a good diversity of flipping conditions. The key question, I think, is what role DFCs will be filling in set, especially how much will that role be different to Innistrad and what it ways.
My thoughts:
Innistrad used DFCs because they convey transform, a key part of the horror genre and how to convey various aspects of it. DFCs become more twisted, more evil versions of themselves.
The reason to use them here is to convey a different sense- of possibility, discovery and otherworldliness (this part especially to do with the world structure). The transformations here would be more positive in feel and more of an evolution or paradigm shift than a distortion.
On ways to represent that:
Creature cross enchantment, instant or sorcery. SOI block did a bit of this, but focusing on it as a major thing makes sense to tap into the idea of a flow of energy across the world.
Other cards cross lands. Lands are a thing we will be doing, and there's plenty of space for lands that you can turn it to another permanent or other permanents that turn into OP lands or a generic land as an after effect.
In terms of triggers, I figure we should focus on caring about the larger game state, things like life totals, cards in hands and lands in play, rather than more time based things like Innistrad's werewolf triggers. This to represent the whole layered world concept, which I think should be a major theme for the design as it's an iconic and interesting part of the world.
DFC really still has a lot of potential open, especially if permanents turn into other permanents. SOI showed that this is possible, especially DFC that can't turn back are interesting. Creatures that turn into lands like a sapling turning into an orchard, lands becoming permanently animated, lands turning into other lands to produce different mana etc.
How many different flip conditions would be ok? Does anybody know if a lot of people where confused by the different triggers in SOI and EMN? I do like cycles, but I also do like uniqueness, a mix of both with regards to DFC would maybe satisfy a lot of players, like if SOI and EMN had more regular werewolves in addition to the Eldrazi ones.
DFC really still has a lot of potential open, especially if permanents turn into other permanents. SOI showed that this is possible, especially DFC that can't turn back are interesting. Creatures that turn into lands like a sapling turning into an orchard, lands becoming permanently animated, lands turning into other lands to produce different mana etc.
How many different flip conditions would be ok? Does anybody know if a lot of people where confused by the different triggers in SOI and EMN? I do like cycles, but I also do like uniqueness, a mix of both with regards to DFC would maybe satisfy a lot of players, like if SOI and EMN had more regular werewolves in addition to the Eldrazi ones.
I think as a general rule we should have a common theme- say caring about combat in some, or what permanents are in play- for at least a good majority of the flip conditions, with a couple of main versions for the majority of those cards.
What about certain colours or colour combinations having specific triggers? Like G caring about landcount, B about life loss per turn, R about combat damage dealt etc. Paired with End-of-Turn trigger that make it planable for both players.
Given that transform here seems to represent change, discovery and the fluidity of reality, it would make sense as U primarily and R secondarily. Keeping it largely out of green will make it more distinct from innistrad as well. Instants and sorceries that come back from the GY as creatures could be interesting space in those colors.
Example:
Yaktos Lightning 1r
Instant C
Deal 3 damage to target creature.
Animate 3r (return~ from the graveyard to the battlefield transformed)
////////////
Lightning beast
Creature-elemental spirit C
3/2
Another idea is rare transform duals such as:
whirling windscape
Land R
T: add C to your mana pool.
T: transform ~
/////////////
Wild Storm
Land R
T: add R or U to your mana pool
Given that transform here seems to represent change, discovery and the fluidity of reality, it would make sense as U primarily and R secondarily. Keeping it largely out of green will make it more distinct from innistrad as well. Instants and sorceries that come back from the GY as creatures could be interesting space in those colors.
Example:
Yaktos Lightning 1r
Instant C
Deal 3 damage to target creature.
Animate 3r (return~ from the graveyard to the battlefield transformed)
////////////
Lightning beast
Creature-elemental spirit C
3/2
Another idea is rare transform duals such as:
whirling windscape
Land R
T: add C to your mana pool.
T: transform ~
/////////////
Wild Storm
Land R
T: add R or U to your mana pool
Animate is very problematic, it's an instant speed trick that works from the graveyard.
I'd rather complete the Horizon Canopy cycle cycle than do DFC dual lands, but I definitely want to do DFC lands.
-
I think I have a mechanics proposal. More mechanics could easily be added, but this is at least a good starting point idea.
-Uncover N (Look at the bottom N cards of your library. Put any number of them into your graveyard, then put the rest on top of your library.)
-Explore - If you control four or more lands with different names, (effect)
(Could easily be three lands instead if four proves to hard to get early)
-Reshape [cost] (Rather than cast this spell, you may pay [cost] and put it onto the battlefield transformed.)
(Back side could be a creature or an enchantment and front could be on any type of spell, but particularly instants/sorceries and creatures)
In relation to this, I have an idea that the structure of Pyrulea naturally shifts over time (and I mean more so than continental drift ). Not tides of destruction like the roil of Zendikar, but layers moving up and down relative to each other and not rapidly. And in connection with this, the life and magic over Pyrulea then follows similar cycles of change. This connects to the Uncover and Reshape mechanics, and also adds to the idea of why exploration is a thing for this world in that a shifting world creates new things to discover over time.
Hi guys, just read over what you've got so far. The DFC ideas seem good, especially the ones concerning lands if we're going to stick with the land matters theme. Having creatures who flip into lands, or the other way round, is something that could be expanded on more I think. The lands transforming into better lands fits the theme of the set as well.
EDIT: Just thought about this but what if we made the focus on lands transforming into other things? Like having lands flip into an instant or sorcery? It keeps with the land focus and also explores something which hasn't been done before. One of the problems with this is that of it to be something that there is focus on we'd have to dedicate a decent amount of the set to just being lands, even if they are lands with upside. Might encourage people to play more lands and solve the 'not enough cards to hit with Explore' problem. Idk just throwing ideas around.
I believe that this thread desperately needs some organization. While the idea of calling it the 'MTG Salvation Custom Set' is a neat idea, it is a little too chaotic to work in practice without some facilitation. I took some time to read this thread and its predecessor poll, so here are my thoughts on this project's bottom-up design so far. I recommend someone taking charge and putting a team together while making this set otherwise "open source" in order to remain inclusive.
"Pyrulea" — Weird name, but planes sometimes have names that translate weirdly into English. It definitely works as a set name. "Pyrulean" is a decent adjective.
"Legendary matters" — Kamigawa did this and it was an absolute failure. 'Legendary' is little more than trinket text in all honesty that has a surprising amount of depth for its complexity cost, but not enough to build a set around by any means. If a legendary is splashy, powerful, and exciting enough on its own, that is more than enough. Do not do "legendary matters".
"Land matters" — Obviously, Zendikar did this and it was an absolute success. If Pyrulea intends to use this mechanic in a new way, it could use lands for something else instead. Could be a great way to use up mana flood, as well.
"Library matters" — Scry is a great evergreen way to have this theme. No reason to not use it if it is there…wait, what about cycling? Actually, kind of think of it, what about basic landscycling? Basic landscycling is a clean way to merge “land matters” and “library matters” for all colors in a space that could use more exploration. Cycling should also be included as a result if this path/road is taken.
“Transformation” — Double faced cards have not been particularly explored in regards to other noncreature permanents. Not a bad idea by any means.
“Counters matter” — I keep seeing this theme pop up here or there throughout the threads sporadically. I am noting it here for completeness.
Here are some additional ideas that I have derived.
“Alternative costs matter” — How does one avoid mana screw with a set that focuses on land sacrifice and destruction? There are plenty of other resources available. Phyrexia explored paying life for any and all colors, but that is Phyrexia; this is Pyrulea. Emerge is great for the Eldrazi, but Pyrulea is not as parasitic. What about Convoke?
Convoke (Your creatures can help cast this spell. Each creature you tap while casting this spell pays for 1 or one mana of that creature's color.)
Convoke is a great mechanic for (G/W), so it can be primary in those colors. There is no reason that this cannot be tertiary in the other three colors or colorless. However, if blue or red do end up needing alternate casting costs, why not use surge instead, which is primary in those colors but nonexistent in white, black, and green?
Surge (U/R)(You may cast a spell for its surge cost if you or a teammate have cast another spell in the same turn.)
Black already has plenty of alternate casting costs (sacrifice/life payment/discard/et cetera), so they are already fine in this regard.
“Tapped or untapped matters” — As Pyrulea’s plane card suggests, the plane is very active and fluctuates between stability and instability. Vigilance is a little too obvious, untap (Q) is already proven to be a lackluster idea, and so on. Convoke would already be a decent step in the right direction. Other cards, abilities, and keywords, which rely on permanents being tapped or untapped (hello Assassinate reprint) would be crucial to solving this design puzzler.
“Enemy colors matter” — This does not necessarily require a themed mechanic, but it is a good step forward already to differentiate from Zendikar 2’s “allies versus antagonists”.
“Allied planeswalkers” — Admittedly, this is my own idea to help reinforce allied color decks in this block, due to the focus on enemy colors here.
Here are my thoughts on the project’s top-down design so far. This includes an inspired story by the end of the following paragraph.
Pyrulea is an especially lush and verdant plane. Its vastness holds many wonders and secrets from a time when this plane was not at all lush nor verdant. The secret now is that Pyrulea is an organic Dyson sphere, able to get nearly infinite amounts of (typically) gentle sunlight. It is a young plane, where ancient traditions are actually not that ancient at all. Cultures reminiscent of various (Native American) lifestyles flourish here, but each faction has unresolved and bitter conflict. The land seems endlessly bountiful, and can even be hostile to its inhabitants if not tamed and maintained here or there during odd circumstances. Defiling the plane for its limited mana supply whenever possible fuels the total war between the factions on the plane, especially between the Ashna and the Oltac. The Huavsa have also recently been predatorily fighting the Xibal, who are actually more than simply mere prey as well.
The Quahua {Alternate name suggestion — Yaktos is very similar to Rakdos.} have managed to cleverly avoid war with anyone, particularly by turning the Huavsa against the Xibal. Nevertheless, recent events have troubled this faction in particular. They are the faction that lives the farthest from the land, preferring the eternally sunlit sky. A solar flare occurred, breaking apart fragments of the seemingly eternal metal that constructed the artifice of the actual Dyson sphere. Why this solar flare occurred is beyond them, and a debate as to why this occurred has actually erupted into a full-on civil war between the aforementioned faction.
One day…the sky went dark. Such has never happened before, not throughout the entire history of Pyrulea. The starry sky was beautiful, but it was an omen of death. Even if the blessed light of the star did return after what felt like an eternal part of an hour, the meaning was as clear as could be.
The star is dying. Pyrulea is dying.
Sentient races:
(W/B): Humans, a race with a great capacity for good as well as evil.
(R/W): Orcs, an honorable race with aggressive tendencies.
(U/R): Lizards, a reptilian race that is equally inquisitive and unpredictable.
(G/U): Elves, a race with an affinity for both nature and splendor.
(B/G): Insects, a race with gifts for both creation and destruction.
Big creature races: (Typically at least 4/4)
W: ? (Nothing from Native American cultures really fits here except maybe Avatar)
I think it's mostly been agreed on that the idea of doing legendary matters can probably be abandoned, though maybe there could be a decent amount of legendary cards in the set. So that's no loss/biggie to me.
I kind of like Despoil, though I think I prefer the term Deplete. It works much like Exploit except for lands. This mechanic, coupled with some instants and sorceries that require you to discard a land as an additional cost, could combine for a nice land sac theme.
One general concern though may be that a set that's "focused on land sacrifice and destruction", as you say, might be a little rough to implement, even if you are trying to compensate for it with alternative costs. Land destruction in general seems to be a bit marginalized in current MTG precedent because of certain concerns about the balance of the game. So just how much can one base a set around it within reason?
Land sac is widely considered one of the least fun mechanics in the game; I would avoid it as a main theme. How about transform based Zoetic Caverns as a theme
I think it's mostly been agreed on that the idea of doing legendary matters can probably be abandoned, though maybe there could be a decent amount of legendary cards in the set. So that's no loss/biggie to me.
I kind of like Despoil, though I think I prefer the term Deplete. It works much like Exploit except for lands. This mechanic, coupled with some instants and sorceries that require you to discard a land as an additional cost, could combine for a nice land sac theme.
One general concern though may be that a set that's "focused on land sacrifice and destruction", as you say, might be a little rough to implement, even if you are trying to compensate for it with alternative costs. Land destruction in general seems to be a bit marginalized in current MTG precedent because of certain concerns about the balance of the game. So just how much can one base a set around it within reason?
"Deplete" is a good keyword replacement. If we do not want to have land sacrifice/destruction, that is not a problem at all. How about this instead?
Y2R
Creature - Elemental (Special)
Haste
Deplete (When this permanent enters the battlefield, you may tap target land you control. That land doesn't untap during your next untap step.)
When Y depletes a land, it gets +2/+0 until end of turn.
2/2
I think it's mostly been agreed on that the idea of doing legendary matters can probably be abandoned, though maybe there could be a decent amount of legendary cards in the set. So that's no loss/biggie to me.
I kind of like Despoil, though I think I prefer the term Deplete. It works much like Exploit except for lands. This mechanic, coupled with some instants and sorceries that require you to discard a land as an additional cost, could combine for a nice land sac theme.
One general concern though may be that a set that's "focused on land sacrifice and destruction", as you say, might be a little rough to implement, even if you are trying to compensate for it with alternative costs. Land destruction in general seems to be a bit marginalized in current MTG precedent because of certain concerns about the balance of the game. So just how much can one base a set around it within reason?
"Deplete" is a good keyword replacement. If we do not want to have land sacrifice/destruction, that is not a problem at all. How about this instead?
Y2R
Creature - Elemental (Special)
Haste
Deplete (When this permanent enters the battlefield, you may tap target land you control. That land doesn't untap during your next untap step.)
When Y depletes a land, it gets +2/+0 until end of turn.
2/2
That's not an effect that will work at the numbers a mechanic has, as an occasional thing it's not oppressive, but as a mechanic it would be.
I believe that this thread desperately needs some organization. While the idea of calling it the 'MTG Salvation Custom Set' is a neat idea, it is a little too chaotic to work in practice without some facilitation. I took some time to read this thread and its predecessor poll, so here are my thoughts on this project's bottom-up design so far. I recommend someone taking charge and putting a team together while making this set otherwise "open source" in order to remain inclusive.
"Pyrulea" — Weird name, but planes sometimes have names that translate weirdly into English. It definitely works as a set name. "Pyrulean" is a decent adjective.
"Legendary matters" — Kamigawa did this and it was an absolute failure. 'Legendary' is little more than trinket text in all honesty that has a surprising amount of depth for its complexity cost, but not enough to build a set around by any means. If a legendary is splashy, powerful, and exciting enough on its own, that is more than enough. Do not do "legendary matters".
"Land matters" — Obviously, Zendikar did this and it was an absolute success. If Pyrulea intends to use this mechanic in a new way, it could use lands for something else instead. Could be a great way to use up mana flood, as well.
"Library matters" — Scry is a great evergreen way to have this theme. No reason to not use it if it is there…wait, what about cycling? Actually, kind of think of it, what about basic landscycling? Basic landscycling is a clean way to merge “land matters” and “library matters” for all colors in a space that could use more exploration. Cycling should also be included as a result if this path/road is taken.
“Transformation” — Double faced cards have not been particularly explored in regards to other noncreature permanents. Not a bad idea by any means.
“Counters matter” — I keep seeing this theme pop up here or there throughout the threads sporadically. I am noting it here for completeness.
I agree we need to pick some ideas, some can be competing, and try them out.
What are your thoughts on my suggestion?
I think I have a mechanics proposal. More mechanics could easily be added, but this is at least a good starting point idea.
-Uncover N (Look at the bottom N cards of your library. Put any number of them into your graveyard, then put the rest on top of your library.)
-Explore - If you control four or more lands with different names, (effect)
(Could easily be three lands instead if four proves to hard to get early)
-Reshape [cost] (Rather than cast this spell, you may pay [cost] and put it onto the battlefield transformed.)
(Back side could be a creature or an enchantment and front could be on any type of spell, but particularly instants/sorceries and creatures)
Cycling could be added here as well. EDIT: On second thought, it's probably a matter of having Uncover or Cycling, not both, as they do things that are a little too similar, even if we split the colours for them. Alternatively, Splice onto instant/sorcery is something I'd be interested in trying.
I don't like the idea of a destructive land theme, I see this world as being more positive than Zendikar (not by a whole lot though), not less. As pointed out as well, this take on the theme has issues with being fun.
Here are some additional ideas that I have derived.
“Alternative costs matter” — How does one avoid mana screw with a set that focuses on land sacrifice and destruction? There are plenty of other resources available. Phyrexia explored paying life for any and all colors, but that is Phyrexia; this is Pyrulea. Emerge is great for the Eldrazi, but Pyrulea is not as parasitic. What about Convoke?
Convoke (Your creatures can help cast this spell. Each creature you tap while casting this spell pays for 1 or one mana of that creature's color.)
Convoke is a great mechanic for (G/W), so it can be primary in those colors. There is no reason that this cannot be tertiary in the other three colors or colorless. However, if blue or red do end up needing alternate casting costs, why not use surge instead, which is primary in those colors but nonexistent in white, black, and green?
Surge (U/R) (You may cast a spell for its surge cost if you or a teammate have cast another spell in the same turn.)
Black already has plenty of alternate casting costs (sacrifice/life payment/discard/et cetera), so they are already fine in this regard.
“Tapped or untapped matters” — As Pyrulea’s plane card suggests, the plane is very active and fluctuates between stability and instability. Vigilance is a little too obvious, untap (Q) is already proven to be a lackluster idea, and so on. Convoke would already be a decent step in the right direction. Other cards, abilities, and keywords, which rely on permanents being tapped or untapped (hello Assassinate reprint) would be crucial to solving this design puzzler.
“Enemy colors matter” — This does not necessarily require a themed mechanic, but it is a good step forward already to differentiate from Zendikar 2’s “allies versus antagonists”.
“Allied planeswalkers” — Admittedly, this is my own idea to help reinforce allied color decks in this block, due to the focus on enemy colors here.
Alternate costs could be something to include, but I wouldn't touch that as a major theme with a ten foot pole.
Convoke and tapping themes could be very appropriate, especially I think if we go with the weird world thematic and cyclic movement ideas I've been proposing.
Focusing on enemy colours is not something I think should be done outside of a faction set. Either keep the balance or dedicate. I don't think this should be a faction set, I think the key to this set is the actual world itself, and factions distract from this. (By factions I don't mean simply groups in the lore)
Here are my thoughts on the project’s top-down design so far. This includes an inspired story by the end of the following paragraph.
Spoiler (click to hide)
Pyrulea is an especially lush and verdant plane. Its vastness holds many wonders and secrets from a time when this plane was not at all lush nor verdant. The secret now is that Pyrulea is an organic Dyson sphere, able to get nearly infinite amounts of (typically) gentle sunlight. It is a young plane, where ancient traditions are actually not that ancient at all. Cultures reminiscent of various (Native American) lifestyles flourish here, but each faction has unresolved and bitter conflict. The land seems endlessly bountiful, and can even be hostile to its inhabitants if not tamed and maintained here or there during odd circumstances. Defiling the plane for its limited mana supply whenever possible fuels the total war between the factions on the plane, especially between the Ashna and the Oltac. The Huavsa have also recently been predatorily fighting the Xibal, who are actually more than simply mere prey as well.
The Quahua {Alternate name suggestion — Yaktos is very similar to Rakdos.} have managed to cleverly avoid war with anyone, particularly by turning the Huavsa against the Xibal. Nevertheless, recent events have troubled this faction in particular. They are the faction that lives the farthest from the land, preferring the eternally sunlit sky. A solar flare occurred, breaking apart fragments of the seemingly eternal metal that constructed the artifice of the actual Dyson sphere. Why this solar flare occurred is beyond them, and a debate as to why this occurred has actually erupted into a full-on civil war between the aforementioned faction.
One day…the sky went dark. Such has never happened before, not throughout the entire history of Pyrulea. The starry sky was beautiful, but it was an omen of death. Even if the blessed light of the star did return after what felt like an eternal part of an hour, the meaning was as clear as could be.
The star is dying. Pyrulea is dying.
I don't want to do a dying world here. Again, it distracts from what I think is the best focus, which is the world itself. I don't want all out war from the same reason. But toned down to not those things, the rest is good.
Sentient races:
(W/B): Humans, a race with a great capacity for good as well as evil.
(R/W): Orcs, an honorable race with aggressive tendencies.
(U/R): Lizards, a reptilian race that is equally inquisitive and unpredictable.
(G/U): Elves, a race with an affinity for both nature and splendor.
(B/G): Insects, a race with gifts for both creation and destruction.
Orcs are a black race, and doing them in white is a stretch. They don't seem very suitable for this world, being quite militaristic and not very at home in the forested environment, I'd prefer to focus more on nightmares, horrors and spirits in black here. Insect and lizard humanoids though I like for this world, and Elves are obviously at home here.
Big creature races: (Typically at least 4/4)
W: ? (Nothing from Native American cultures really fits here except maybe Avatar)
U: Leviathan
B: Horror
R: Phoenix
G: Hydra (or Wurm?)
I would prefer Cycling over Uncover. Uncover seems just too similar to Scry while at the same time trying to be different, which it doesn't succeed in my opinion. It also is a mechanic that has to be priced quite highly the deeper you uncover, since manipulating your next draw step and your graveyard at the same time is quite strong.
Explore is a bit too prohibitive and too hard to get going at higher values, and probably too easy if you don't have to count a lot of lands.
Reshape is ok, although there is next to no way for the opponent to know if the correct costs were paid, unless Reshape is on both sides.
Convoke, yay!
Surge, nay!
Still like focus on transformation, although the suggested idea of permanents transforming into sorceries or instants probably doesn't work. Crossing permanents can be done pretty easily, however, as it has been shown already.
About the world itself:
Dying plane is interesting, but not that good for an opening set.
Races can be anything, although it would be easier if they are not too outlandish, since finding pictures is gonna be a pain in the butt already
Sentient races:
(W/B): Humans, a race with a great capacity for good as well as evil.
(R/W): Orcs, an honorable race with aggressive tendencies.
(U/R): Lizards, a reptilian race that is equally inquisitive and unpredictable.
(G/U): Elves, a race with an affinity for both nature and splendor.
(B/G): Insects, a race with gifts for both creation and destruction.
Orcs are a black race, and doing them in white is a stretch. They don't seem very suitable for this world, being quite militaristic and not very at home in the forested environment, I'd prefer to focus more on nightmares, horrors and spirits in black here. Insect and lizard humanoids though I like for this world, and Elves are obviously at home here.
What about if we switched Humans into R/W and put Spirits into W/B?
Cycling, Convoke and Reshape seem to fit quite well into the overall theme of the plane, although none of them are mechanics that really care about lands. We've had some mechanics that kind of touch on this but none of them have really stuck. I saw a mechanic earlier which spike my interested so I tweaked it a bit into:
Discover - While you control this card reveal the top card of your library. If it's a land...
I know people didn't like the idea because the chances of hitting a land were too low for the mechanic to be used reliably but if the top card is constantly revealed and the bonus is something that makes the card better, doesn't that give players an incentive to run more lands? Something like:
Discover Creature 1G
Creature
Discover - While you control this card reveal the top card of your library. If it's a land ~ gets +2/+2
2/2
Or for instant and sorcery:
Discover Spell 2UU
Instant
Counter target spell.
Discover - When you cast this card reveal the top card of your library. If it's a land draw a card.
Plus if we include cycling in the set then it sets up a way to manipulate the top card of your library somewhat. Scry is an evergreen mechanic as well so that could help the mechanic. Shuffle effects also help.
EDIT: Oops changed some stuff while people where replying to the post
Reshape is ok, although there is next to no way for the opponent to know if the correct costs were paid, unless Reshape is on both sides.
Can't you just check the other side of the card? Or is there some situation I'm missing that makes it harder to check if the exact correct cost was paid?
Here's a version that's more of a gamble:
Explore (Exile cards from the top of your library until you reveal a land card. Put that card into your hand. Until end of turn, you may play the rest of the cards exiled this way).
But one issue I see is that it is explicitly a red and green mechanic now. It's also slightly more wordy. And if you do have the mana to cast the rest of the exiled cards, it's actually more powerful. If you don't, it's a loss rather than a chance to cycle. It's still not something that seems like it could easily go on a common either.
I don't know, just brainstorming here.
I don't want to curse things, but a prior poster recently might have a valid point. We're 5 pages into this and still haven't come up with a single mechanic that is balanced and has practical design space at all rarities (let alone colors), and we are still mostly in the dark about the specific flavor we're working with. IMO, the legendary matters subtheme could also easily be scrapped until we come up with some real flavor to make legendary things about - important people, objects, and places. Which harkens back to agreeing on a solid story of sorts.
As I said earlier:
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
- face-down cards (not necessarily morph cards), but it might be a bit redundant with Tarkir ;
- colours changing, or types changing ;
- an Illusion theme. It might be a bit focused on Blue, but it could be possible to extend it to other colours.
But I keep on pondering about it ^^
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Keep it up, you are all amazing.
Voxzorz
We probably want a good diversity of flipping conditions. The key question, I think, is what role DFCs will be filling in set, especially how much will that role be different to Innistrad and what it ways.
My thoughts:
Innistrad used DFCs because they convey transform, a key part of the horror genre and how to convey various aspects of it. DFCs become more twisted, more evil versions of themselves.
The reason to use them here is to convey a different sense- of possibility, discovery and otherworldliness (this part especially to do with the world structure). The transformations here would be more positive in feel and more of an evolution or paradigm shift than a distortion.
On ways to represent that:
Creature cross enchantment, instant or sorcery. SOI block did a bit of this, but focusing on it as a major thing makes sense to tap into the idea of a flow of energy across the world.
Other cards cross lands. Lands are a thing we will be doing, and there's plenty of space for lands that you can turn it to another permanent or other permanents that turn into OP lands or a generic land as an after effect.
In terms of triggers, I figure we should focus on caring about the larger game state, things like life totals, cards in hands and lands in play, rather than more time based things like Innistrad's werewolf triggers. This to represent the whole layered world concept, which I think should be a major theme for the design as it's an iconic and interesting part of the world.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
How many different flip conditions would be ok? Does anybody know if a lot of people where confused by the different triggers in SOI and EMN? I do like cycles, but I also do like uniqueness, a mix of both with regards to DFC would maybe satisfy a lot of players, like if SOI and EMN had more regular werewolves in addition to the Eldrazi ones.
I think as a general rule we should have a common theme- say caring about combat in some, or what permanents are in play- for at least a good majority of the flip conditions, with a couple of main versions for the majority of those cards.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Example:
Yaktos Lightning 1r
Instant C
Deal 3 damage to target creature.
Animate 3r (return~ from the graveyard to the battlefield transformed)
////////////
Lightning beast
Creature-elemental spirit C
3/2
Another idea is rare transform duals such as:
whirling windscape
Land R
T: add C to your mana pool.
T: transform ~
/////////////
Wild Storm
Land R
T: add R or U to your mana pool
Animate is very problematic, it's an instant speed trick that works from the graveyard.
I'd rather complete the Horizon Canopy cycle cycle than do DFC dual lands, but I definitely want to do DFC lands.
-
I think I have a mechanics proposal. More mechanics could easily be added, but this is at least a good starting point idea.
-Uncover N (Look at the bottom N cards of your library. Put any number of them into your graveyard, then put the rest on top of your library.)
-Explore - If you control four or more lands with different names, (effect)
(Could easily be three lands instead if four proves to hard to get early)
-Reshape [cost] (Rather than cast this spell, you may pay [cost] and put it onto the battlefield transformed.)
(Back side could be a creature or an enchantment and front could be on any type of spell, but particularly instants/sorceries and creatures)
In relation to this, I have an idea that the structure of Pyrulea naturally shifts over time (and I mean more so than continental drift ). Not tides of destruction like the roil of Zendikar, but layers moving up and down relative to each other and not rapidly. And in connection with this, the life and magic over Pyrulea then follows similar cycles of change. This connects to the Uncover and Reshape mechanics, and also adds to the idea of why exploration is a thing for this world in that a shifting world creates new things to discover over time.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
EDIT: Just thought about this but what if we made the focus on lands transforming into other things? Like having lands flip into an instant or sorcery? It keeps with the land focus and also explores something which hasn't been done before. One of the problems with this is that of it to be something that there is focus on we'd have to dedicate a decent amount of the set to just being lands, even if they are lands with upside. Might encourage people to play more lands and solve the 'not enough cards to hit with Explore' problem. Idk just throwing ideas around.
Grimm - A plane of dreams, nightmares and fairy tales
"Pyrulea" — Weird name, but planes sometimes have names that translate weirdly into English. It definitely works as a set name. "Pyrulean" is a decent adjective.
"Legendary matters" — Kamigawa did this and it was an absolute failure. 'Legendary' is little more than trinket text in all honesty that has a surprising amount of depth for its complexity cost, but not enough to build a set around by any means. If a legendary is splashy, powerful, and exciting enough on its own, that is more than enough. Do not do "legendary matters".
"Land matters" — Obviously, Zendikar did this and it was an absolute success. If Pyrulea intends to use this mechanic in a new way, it could use lands for something else instead. Could be a great way to use up mana flood, as well.
"Library matters" — Scry is a great evergreen way to have this theme. No reason to not use it if it is there…wait, what about cycling? Actually, kind of think of it, what about basic landscycling? Basic landscycling is a clean way to merge “land matters” and “library matters” for all colors in a space that could use more exploration. Cycling should also be included as a result if this path/road is taken.
“Transformation” — Double faced cards have not been particularly explored in regards to other noncreature permanents. Not a bad idea by any means.
“Counters matter” — I keep seeing this theme pop up here or there throughout the threads sporadically. I am noting it here for completeness.
Here are some additional ideas that I have derived.
“Alternative costs matter” — How does one avoid mana screw with a set that focuses on land sacrifice and destruction? There are plenty of other resources available. Phyrexia explored paying life for any and all colors, but that is Phyrexia; this is Pyrulea. Emerge is great for the Eldrazi, but Pyrulea is not as parasitic. What about Convoke?
Convoke (Your creatures can help cast this spell. Each creature you tap while casting this spell pays for 1 or one mana of that creature's color.)
Convoke is a great mechanic for (G/W), so it can be primary in those colors. There is no reason that this cannot be tertiary in the other three colors or colorless. However, if blue or red do end up needing alternate casting costs, why not use surge instead, which is primary in those colors but nonexistent in white, black, and green?
Surge (U/R) (You may cast a spell for its surge cost if you or a teammate have cast another spell in the same turn.)
Black already has plenty of alternate casting costs (sacrifice/life payment/discard/et cetera), so they are already fine in this regard.
“Tapped or untapped matters” — As Pyrulea’s plane card suggests, the plane is very active and fluctuates between stability and instability. Vigilance is a little too obvious, untap (Q) is already proven to be a lackluster idea, and so on. Convoke would already be a decent step in the right direction. Other cards, abilities, and keywords, which rely on permanents being tapped or untapped (hello Assassinate reprint) would be crucial to solving this design puzzler.
“Enemy colors matter” — This does not necessarily require a themed mechanic, but it is a good step forward already to differentiate from Zendikar 2’s “allies versus antagonists”.
“Allied planeswalkers” — Admittedly, this is my own idea to help reinforce allied color decks in this block, due to the focus on enemy colors here.
Here are my thoughts on the project’s top-down design so far. This includes an inspired story by the end of the following paragraph.
The Quahua {Alternate name suggestion — Yaktos is very similar to Rakdos.} have managed to cleverly avoid war with anyone, particularly by turning the Huavsa against the Xibal. Nevertheless, recent events have troubled this faction in particular. They are the faction that lives the farthest from the land, preferring the eternally sunlit sky. A solar flare occurred, breaking apart fragments of the seemingly eternal metal that constructed the artifice of the actual Dyson sphere. Why this solar flare occurred is beyond them, and a debate as to why this occurred has actually erupted into a full-on civil war between the aforementioned faction.
One day…the sky went dark. Such has never happened before, not throughout the entire history of Pyrulea. The starry sky was beautiful, but it was an omen of death. Even if the blessed light of the star did return after what felt like an eternal part of an hour, the meaning was as clear as could be.
The star is dying. Pyrulea is dying.
I kind of like Despoil, though I think I prefer the term Deplete. It works much like Exploit except for lands. This mechanic, coupled with some instants and sorceries that require you to discard a land as an additional cost, could combine for a nice land sac theme.
One general concern though may be that a set that's "focused on land sacrifice and destruction", as you say, might be a little rough to implement, even if you are trying to compensate for it with alternative costs. Land destruction in general seems to be a bit marginalized in current MTG precedent because of certain concerns about the balance of the game. So just how much can one base a set around it within reason?
"Deplete" is a good keyword replacement. If we do not want to have land sacrifice/destruction, that is not a problem at all. How about this instead?
Creature - Elemental (Special)
Haste
Deplete (When this permanent enters the battlefield, you may tap target land you control. That land doesn't untap during your next untap step.)
When Y depletes a land, it gets +2/+0 until end of turn.
2/2
That's not an effect that will work at the numbers a mechanic has, as an occasional thing it's not oppressive, but as a mechanic it would be.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
I agree we need to pick some ideas, some can be competing, and try them out.
What are your thoughts on my suggestion?
Cycling could be added here as well. EDIT: On second thought, it's probably a matter of having Uncover or Cycling, not both, as they do things that are a little too similar, even if we split the colours for them. Alternatively, Splice onto instant/sorcery is something I'd be interested in trying.
I don't like the idea of a destructive land theme, I see this world as being more positive than Zendikar (not by a whole lot though), not less. As pointed out as well, this take on the theme has issues with being fun.
Alternate costs could be something to include, but I wouldn't touch that as a major theme with a ten foot pole.
Convoke and tapping themes could be very appropriate, especially I think if we go with the weird world thematic and cyclic movement ideas I've been proposing.
Focusing on enemy colours is not something I think should be done outside of a faction set. Either keep the balance or dedicate. I don't think this should be a faction set, I think the key to this set is the actual world itself, and factions distract from this. (By factions I don't mean simply groups in the lore)
I don't want to do a dying world here. Again, it distracts from what I think is the best focus, which is the world itself. I don't want all out war from the same reason. But toned down to not those things, the rest is good.
Orcs are a black race, and doing them in white is a stretch. They don't seem very suitable for this world, being quite militaristic and not very at home in the forested environment, I'd prefer to focus more on nightmares, horrors and spirits in black here. Insect and lizard humanoids though I like for this world, and Elves are obviously at home here.
Why Native american culture? I don't understand.
RUNIN: Norse mythology set (awaiting further playtesting)
FATE of ALARA: Multicolour factions (currently on hiatus)
Contibutor to the Pyrulea community set
I'm here to tell you that all your set mechanics are bad
#Defundthepolice
Explore is a bit too prohibitive and too hard to get going at higher values, and probably too easy if you don't have to count a lot of lands.
Reshape is ok, although there is next to no way for the opponent to know if the correct costs were paid, unless Reshape is on both sides.
Convoke, yay!
Surge, nay!
Still like focus on transformation, although the suggested idea of permanents transforming into sorceries or instants probably doesn't work. Crossing permanents can be done pretty easily, however, as it has been shown already.
About the world itself:
Dying plane is interesting, but not that good for an opening set.
Races can be anything, although it would be easier if they are not too outlandish, since finding pictures is gonna be a pain in the butt already
Probably cause one of the foci is Maya/Inca.
What about if we switched Humans into R/W and put Spirits into W/B?
Cycling, Convoke and Reshape seem to fit quite well into the overall theme of the plane, although none of them are mechanics that really care about lands. We've had some mechanics that kind of touch on this but none of them have really stuck. I saw a mechanic earlier which spike my interested so I tweaked it a bit into:
Discover - While you control this card reveal the top card of your library. If it's a land...
I know people didn't like the idea because the chances of hitting a land were too low for the mechanic to be used reliably but if the top card is constantly revealed and the bonus is something that makes the card better, doesn't that give players an incentive to run more lands? Something like:
Discover Creature 1G
Creature
Discover - While you control this card reveal the top card of your library. If it's a land ~ gets +2/+2
2/2
Or for instant and sorcery:
Discover Spell 2UU
Instant
Counter target spell.
Discover - When you cast this card reveal the top card of your library. If it's a land draw a card.
Plus if we include cycling in the set then it sets up a way to manipulate the top card of your library somewhat. Scry is an evergreen mechanic as well so that could help the mechanic. Shuffle effects also help.
EDIT: Oops changed some stuff while people where replying to the post
Grimm - A plane of dreams, nightmares and fairy tales
Can't you just check the other side of the card? Or is there some situation I'm missing that makes it harder to check if the exact correct cost was paid?
Grimm - A plane of dreams, nightmares and fairy tales